How To Ruin Your Electric Car's Battery - 3 Common Mistakes
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- Опубліковано 25 січ 2024
- Three Tips To Keep Your Electric Car's Battery From Degrading Too Fast
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Electric cars are becoming increasingly popular, but a common concern remains for many owners - what about the battery? An electric car's battery is by far the most expensive part, so replacing it means a huge bill. The good news, however, is that there are many practices you can put into place to ensure your electric car's battery lasts for hundreds of thousands of miles.
This video seeks to not only understand what the best practices are for keeping your electric car's battery in good health, but also, the scientific reasons why these best practices are useful. We'll look at different causes of battery degradation, helpful tips for extending the life of your battery, and what scientific research says about he effects of various harmful parameters on battery health.
The video will answer the following questions:
1) Why do batteries lose capacity over time?
2) What percentage should you store your battery at?
3) Is it okay to charge your electric car to 100%?
4) How often should you recharge your electric car?
Related Videos:
EV Battery Health with Dr. Jeff Dahn - • EV Battery Health with...
How Li-Ion Batteries Work - • Everything You Need To...
References:
Lithium Ion Degradation - pubs.rsc.org/en/content/artic...
Li-Ion Life Cycle Study - www.sciencedirect.com/science...
Dr. Jeff Dahn - www.dal.ca/diff/dahn/people/j...
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Here in Chile, in my company, we have more than 800 electrical buses with around 250KWh of original capacity, bought almost yearly from 2016 to 2023. We currently don't see a significant (statistically) degradation in capacity (SoH) even after 300.000 KM, but we take precautions: we avoid charging to 100% wen in the higher side of the city to avoid loosing the possibility of recharging on the road, we do a full charge at least once a week, we rotate the buses from different routes, we don't start routes with less than 30% of charge to avoid running out of energy due to unexpected problems on the road. We have some cases of degradation of around 3%, but once again, on a fleet analysis, degradation = 0% statistically.
That's a lot of work to keep degradation to around 0.
Thanks for sharing! Curious - why do you do a full charge once a week?
@@EngineeringExplained LFP maybe?
@@SwordFighterPKN Thats not that much work for a fleet. Fleet maintenance is serious work
@@SwordFighterPKN Don't think so, not hard to keep track on usage and charging can be done on a vehicle base automatically.
Just have to setup software once.
And rotating vehicle routes is also something you do with ICE buses as well.
With the high number of LFP batteries now being sold, it would be fantastic if you could make a similar video focused on LFP.
Yep, definitely think so as well!
I just put 15.000km on my MG4 standard with an LFP battery. I am asking myself the same things. Unlike the NMC versions, the LFP one does not even have a battery health mode. They actively coded it out. So I assume LFP is more robust to high SOC charging.
One thing I know for sure is that they have an incredible low temperature sensitivity. Even without heating or AC the range plummeted at -5°C (to 60% of what it is at 20°C) My guesstimation is that internal resistances or reactive potential drop at low temperatures. In any case that should be avoided if you live in a cold place.
I was thinking the same. I would also be curious to see Lipo difference?
Yes I would also love an additional explanation on LFP batteries! I would love to see similar information on how they handle cold, heat, sitting for long periods of time, and if sitting at a high state of charge versus a low state of charge affects them. Or maybe even a video on future or upcoming battery technologies like Solid State or something, though that might be harder to cover engineering information on since they're so new or even undeveloped. @@EngineeringExplained
@@quintonstevenslithium iron phosphate is interesting in that you can't charge it at all if it's below freezing. It is however less sensitive to heat and can have very long cycle lifes. I recently got some large format (280ah) prismatic cells shipped over from China to build a battery for my RV. It's at the point where it was cheaper upfront for me to order 8 lifepo4 cells and two 150 amp bms and pay sea freight than to go down to Sam's club and pickup 8 6 volt deep cycle lead acid batteries. Once you factor in the life span differences it's a fraction of the cost of a large lead bank.
The real challenge will be getting the general consumer to actually follow these best practices. Even after decades of preaching we still can't get people to follow routine oil changes.
In general with this sorta thing we should hide it behind software. That's why we have charging curves for example
It's not always possible of course
I definitely agree that more education needs to get out to consumers, especially those looking to purchase EVs. That said, I also wonder if it would be possible or even practical to handle all of this on the software side, so that it is done automatically without much needed input from the user.
A lot of it is already handled by software. There are buffers to prevent max and min charge, safeguards to prevent charging in conditions that could damage the battery, etc. Like he said, even if you ignore all this advice, your battery will likely last a long time, even past the warranty. These are just if you want make it last as long as possible.
People don’t do it for their phone/laptops. They sure as hell won’t do it for their car.
That’s why mfg should develop smart charging battery management software/hardware
See timestamps for points, reasoning and caveats:
1) 0:58 don't store your car at 100% battery for long periods
2) 4:30 Don't wait to charge your car (many short changes are preferable to fewer big charges)
3) 8:30 Don't regularly charge to 100%
bunch of rules that reduce effective range...
@@SoloRenegade every rule says* when needed.
Also he says it is still the manufacturer requirements to solve the problems. They are going to do what they need for warranty period.
Thanks for summing it up. Are you the AI everyone is talking about?
@@ralanham76 you're missing teh point. EVs already have their work cut out for them as they fail to live up to the hype. but on top of that to ensure the batteries don't prematurely fail, they have to be operated at perpetual states of much reduced range, regardless of all teh other issues compounding, such as cold weather.
@@SoloRenegade it's up to the manufacturer to make it last 100k for the warranty nothing more
This video will be shared like crazy in the EV forums, among new owners. Well done
We have used Level 1 charging on all of our short distance EV's with great results. I just sold a 2013 Leaf SL with 92% battery health. It did have an 80% charge setting.
Very impressive for the Leaf! Many of the first gen Leafs haven't had great battery longevity.
Yes @@EngineeringExplainedI believe the temperate cool climate of Atlantic Canada mixed with level I charging, and temperature controlled parking at home makes a big difference compared to say parking on hot sun scorched pavement in Nevada during the summer while high speed charging.
I hope someone builds a similar car with an air cooled "Sodium Battery" pack for everyone above the 45th parallel.
@@EngineeringExplainedI have a 2013 leaf but used very cheaply, and I don't know exactly how the previous owner treated it, but not too badly as when I bought it in late 2022 it had 11/12 battery health bars.
I somewhat doubt this as it only really gets 50ish miles at highway speeds but it's worked for me.
Personally I think NMC is too much if a tradeoff in terms of longevity for me, and I'm happy that the cheaper EVs tend to have LFP batteries that are less dense but are absolute tanks for longevity.
Plus charging at home at 3kw is plenty fast for me :) great video btw!
@@fabulousoffroaddesigns5080 The Leaf battery packs have been reverse-engineered. After market replacements should be possible.
@@smvsspould 6 years ago I bought a 2013 leaf with only the J1772 port so I know it was only Level 1 or 2 charged by the previous owner and there aren't any Chademo chargers nearby. It had 11/12 bars at the time, 50k miles later it still has 9/12 bars. Your doubts are well placed as the health bars aren't all equal. The first bar doesn't disappear until the battery has degraded about 15%, each of the other bars disappear after about half as much degradation, or about 7.5%. So your 11/12 bar leaf could have as little as 78% of the original capacity remaining which matches your observation of the highway range. 78% of 75 (the original mixed mileage range) = 58.5 miles. The range drops pretty fast at highway speeds too. I put a basic grill block on and went from 3.1 to 3.5 miles/kwh (all that air is just for cooling the AC condenser and I don't use the AC much) and smoothed the wheels and went from 3.5 to 4.1 miles/kwh and my regular commute is only about 60% highway.
I'm glad to hear that charging to 100% isn't so bad at low temperatures since I get about the same range from 100% in the winter as I get from 80% in the summer. I switch it about the time I switch my all season tires for winter tires.
And I agree, 3kw is generally fast enough with a little planning.
Fantastic. This is the first youtube presentation of Li-ion batteries that not only gets it right but also have real in depth explanation.
It is probably not that obvious for the viewer why the cracking is the a problem as you explained SEI formation early and didn't mention the cracking when the intercalation materials expand exposing the electrodes so they form new SEI and lose capacity.
A part 2 about charging speeds and temperature maybe even coupled with risk if lithium plating might also be interesting.
BTW I used these guiding 'rules' above for the first EV I had.
When I sold the Nissan Leaf 24 kWh (notorious for degradation), I still had SoH at 93% and 'all bars'.
(I know this is not precise but a guidance).
WOW - this was excellent! Really appreciate your summarization from other sources while still sharing important details about the "why" of this stuff!
Excellent video, Jason. I appreciate that you don't take a side, but rather evaluate things from an engineer's perspective, looking at the advantages, disadvantages, and requirements of the topic at hand.
As a fellow mechanical engineer, I can tell you we _always_ take a side. We side with what _really_ works best, by the numbers!
Just kidding; we’re biased like everyone else.
@@altosack Sure. The bias is going to be towards what is the best way to meet requirements with the technologies and techniques available.
E/E does a good job of talking about both the advantages and disadvantages in his videos. Out of Spec Reviews also operates in a similar vein, but his videos are always really long.
The only people insinuating that there are sides are the ones still breathing exhaust fumes and not looking at the numbers. We're all on the same side: Humanity's and/or the Earth's side. Some of us are just further along and more capable of understanding what is good for it (EV and battery technology, etc.), and others are getting left behind in their old thinking and believing that we're divided into two sides... Either way the end goal is the same, and we all want the same thing. Obviously we all understand there are still developments happening but the real hinderance are those completely opposed and uneducated, or those grouping us all into two sides-whether they think they're part of one side or not...
did you invest in cobalt mine in Africa or simply a Biden office worker?
@@natjam0205 Tribalism has always been part of humanity unfortunately. Typically by the more uneducated ones as you've mentioned.
Excellent video Jason!
My relation to this topic comes from 5 plus years of ownership of my 2018 Zero SR motorcycle which has a 14.4 KWh pack.
I have a little less than 18,000 miles on the bike and have not had any issues nor noticed any battery degredation.
This makes sense since I've followed basically the rules you have on this video.
I store the bike at about 50% SOC during the winter months, I keep the SOC when riding between 40% and 80% normally, charge right away and only charge to 100% before taking longer rides. I think I just aquired this knowledge over time from different sources but this video was vindication for sure.
So most of the time your range is 40% ? I do non of those things in my Aprillia and it’s just fine🤣
Nope. It's whatever I need it to be for the ride. @@chartedtravel1776
@@chartedtravel1776they’ve also barely driven it lol
I love hearing experiences like yours from actual owners. I know so many people get obsessed with range, and for some people it might be important. My gas bike was a Honda Shadow, but it had a terrible range. Less than 100 miles put it on reserve capacity, and don't like diving it down to that point. So I ended up treating it similar to how you do with your Zero, but I couldn't charge at home. Yours sounds like a very enjoyable bike, and I'm glad to hear what you had to share about it.
Thanks. I love my Zero. @@oddjobsandrandomprojects
So glad you got to highlight the Doc's video!
My first visit to your channel. Your explanations are absolutely perfect! Thanks so much - can't wait to watch some more! Subscribed!
Thanks for putting this together, Jason. I've owned a Model 3 Performance for about 1.5 years now and have seen little to no degradation of the battery. I rarely charge to 100% (only on trips). My ideal capacity range has been 20%-80%. After watching this video, I will charge more frequently if below 80% and keep the cap there.
As always.. LOVE your breakdowns and simple understanding of some real complex automotive concepts! Appreciate it as always!
Thanks!
I just bought an ev and was looking for a video like this for a while. Thank you so much for all the quality content engineering explained.
happy to hear it!
Sucker
Jason, This is great stuff and I shared it with many people with Teslas. Not a surprise for most of us but good information reinforcing our daily best practices. Thank you.
Finally, a voice of reason. As for LiXXX chemistry (high density + high discharge rate), my years of experience say (basically from beginning of this chemistry):
1. Don't discharge to 0% and don't charge to 100%.
2. Use battery capacity between 20-80% (20-60% is preffered).
3. When in storage (max live, not used), charge/discharge to 50%, and keep it cool if available (5-10C).
I live by the 20-80% rule. Even on road trips I only had to fully charge once to reach the top of the mountain & return trip. Otherwise my EV Truck has only seen 80% charge limit it's entire life. Lowest was I believe 16%. Not hard to do when I charge daily, and just be aware when on a road trip. It will get easier once I can use the Superchargers this month.
@@Cjdergrosse so your range on average is about 235 miles? - maybe 250
Hey Jason, I have an idea for helping us nerds and engineering geeks get the most out of your whiteboard discussions: zoom in on the portion of the whiteboard that you are discussing. A close shot will help us see the details, see your hard work, a little bit better. Would you consider that?
PS the two Jason‘s videos you and Cammisa do are a hoot!
Yeah, sometimes I do it, will keep this in mind!
When I want to zoom in on the whiteboard I just use my two fingers on my iPad and it works great to get a better view of the whiteboard. It also helps me to slow the video down to .75 so I can absorb the information easier.
if you are watching videos on your phone get some 2.5X reading glasses
your phone screen will look at big as a tablet or small laptop
Thanks! This is the best explainer on battery hygiene that I've ever seen.
Great info. It took me a lot of time and research to get to the same conclusions. Great job of packing it all into a short vid.
Being retired and not much driving I keep my model y at 60%. Only charge higher when I know I going to need it. Also charge on 30 amp circuit which gen 2 mobile charger recognizes by which plug option you snap into it. There are 8 different plug options and four different current options. 15, 20, 30 and 50. By using the 30, it uses the 80% rule and charges at 24 amps. Nice and low. Super chargers are the least preferable way to charge if it can be avoided.
I recently replaced the sealed lead acid battery in a booster pack. The specifications had detailed data on charge cycles, etc. and many of the same observations as in your video (avoid high temperatures, deep discharge cycles, so on).
The one difference with lead acid is they should be kept at 100% SoC as much as possible.
When a lead acid battery is discharged, the sulfur in the sulfuric acid sticks to the lead plates. This is reversed by charging the battery, but the longer you wait to charge the battery the harder this layer of sulfur gets. When the layer gets harder it won’t convert back to acid as easily. Also, the acid gets weaker as the battery discharges. This means the electrolyte freezes easier, and a frozen battery will end up with bent and shorted lead plates.
This is great and it also applies to essentially everything that uses Li-ion batteries, like phones and appliances. Good things to put in practice if you want to extract as much life off your batteries as you can.
My wife has a new iPhone and the battery can last 2+ days. I have been trying to get her to let it drain to 30% and charge to 80% like I do with the assumption that fewer charges is better. From this video, it sounds like she is right charging her phone daily (except that she charges to 100%). Am I wrong again?
Awesome work. Thank you, sir!
Thank you for the presentation. It all makes sense. Also, the heads up on Dr. Dahn. Cheers.
Amazing video! I have been thinking about this topic for a while now. Please make a video about the new LFP batteries that are being used in the New Teslas. Thank you for all of the work that you put in this video. I really appreciate how you broke down complex topics and made them easily understandable Once again, thank you.
Happy to hear it, thanks for watching!
“in the New Teslas”->in some new Teslas
Love your video🤩 I charge my Tesla MS75D to 80% and charge every day, just 50-60 to 80 around the town. When going on long roadtrips, up to 95 or 100% just before driving , and run the battery down to 10% usually. Greetings from Oslo Norway😊
Same ❤🎉
huh...I "charge" my F-150 to 100% every 3 or 4 months, drive 700 miles to near empty, and then "charge" it again in 5 minutes.
This is the way...🎉
@@southerninterloper4107 You only drive 700 miles in 3 months?
@@Freakishd Yup. With the occasional road trip thrown in but that's the norm.
Useful, thanks Jason!
Thanks Jason. Always love your vids.
Had the pleasure of taking first year physics with Dr. Dahn. Glad to see him getting broader recognition for his passion in battery chemistry.
I charge 80-85% in the winter due to colder temps and use 30-40% of that daily (I drive 80-120 miles) and in the spring / summer / fall I charge to 65-70% and effectively get the same range but using 20-30% of my SOC, better efficiency.
My mid-range new had 64kwh Gross, 62.6kwh usable.. Today after 100k miles its got 58.6kwh usable / 61kwh gross. So 3kwh loss in 100k miles, and fun fact it lost 2kwh in the first 25,000 miles than it did losing the remaining 1kwh in 75000 miles. So realistically this car will get well over 250-300,000 miles before I hit the 85-90% degradation point. Overall its on point.
What app do you use to get those capacity numbers?
My M3P has the same color wrap as yours😂😂😂
Which ev brand and which battery?
@@pissmyasslynch5325 I like it - I got my color sprayed in Autoflex + Clear coat (its peelable paint but ultra durable with real clear coat) I got 70,000 miles on it and it still looks great and is 13-15mil thick. Mantis Verde (lambo) + gold pearl - gold gives it a yellow vibe in sun.
@@larryc1616 NMC811 - 2018 Tesla Model 3 Mid-Range
Thank you, Jason, for the detailed explanations. It would have been nice to know which manufacturers are using single crystal (monocrystalline?) batteries.
Great job Jason.
Watching these videos makes me way less fun at parties
Having never been fun at parties, I have nothing to lose.
Ha! Maybe you need to find a different party?
@@am00019 😅
I don't have an EV, but I somewhat assumed they had "smart" controller that could automatically devise a good charging plan (with override if the user wants to make sure the battery is fully charged sometimes). While it's nice to make people aware about how to handle their batteries, it would probably be way more effective to have this built-in.
Many vehicles have this, but people are idiots who refuse to listen to advice.
The smartest thing about most EV's is that they prevent you from charging to true 100% in the first place. There is usually a buffer that is not used. In my old Leaf, for example, the battery was 62kwh but the car actually only lets you use 55kwh (about 89%).
@Thirty-Ninety Yeah except the leaf thermal management was non-existent and they all have cooked batteries. Stay away from a battery with no thermal management in my opinion.
Leafs use pouch batteries which are impossible to manage heat-wise. The cores can get really hot.
The display has nothing to do what is actually 100% or 5% ...
Do you actually think theyd risk having to swap your battery in warranty 2 months befory it ends?
Nah, they will do a "battery check", software update, suddenly you got 5% more range again than minimally allowed and you reach the end of warranty just fine.
Hi Jason. Love your work 👍
I totally enjoy your content such as this video, awesome work!
Would you mind bringing up that topic for LFP cells as well in the future?
Thanks for the video. I recently tried to read up on these battery degrading effects but is seems like every google search is either very shallow or leads to full depth research papers focusing on very specific cases. Hard to get a decent overview so it's great you took the time to gather it up!
Happy to hear it, I felt similarly!
@@EngineeringExplained Yeah I wish there was more of a middle ground for the "science enthusiast lay person."
Everything is either incredibly, incredibly simplified pop science stuff or highly, highly technical scientific journal articles in Nature Chemical engineering.
My 4.5 year old M3P has only around 5% degradation- it’s literally NEVER been to 100%, even on long trips. (I find 95% works better for long trips, and still gives me regen.)
Typically day to day, I use 40 to 70%, and ESPECIALLY in Summer I try to use 70% or less as absolute max except on a trip.
Thanks Jason, excellent presentation as usual.
Great video Jason! I’ve been looking into Tesla for my next transportation needs and this is very important!
One thing to note is that manufacturers already eat some the true state of charge in their consumer stated range vs their actual charge range to protect the battery.
Depends. They can set 100% at whatever actual charge they want, but most manufacturers don’t really nerf their batteries much. Gotta have that Big Range Number.
They only reduce to such an extent that they won’t end up with many warranty claims
over 2 years and 35K miles of ownership for my Tesla Model 3 performance, My battery health is at about 94% and I charge to 85% every 2 to 4 days (not everyday). The car has been great honestly.
How is that great? With that trend you will reach below 85% within 6 years and your cars battery has to be replaced, and you won't even complete 150.000 miles, which most cars do easily
@@luke73362degradation is not linear
Why would you need to replace the battery if it’s at 85%?
Is that 94% of 80% though ? too much mumbo-jumbo about EV battery capacities and degradation.
You should switch to charging daily if you can. I have a 3 year old Model S with 45k miles and the degradation is about 1% according to Recurrent. I charge to 65% and drive 45 miles using 15%. So, it stays in the 65% to 50% range on a daily basis.
I really appreciate your detailed explanations. This is very useful. Thank you very much.
Love your videos, great info!
Would really like to see a video investigating differences between 400v and 800v architechures, as the ability to charge extremely fast is obvious but i bet there many differences using even “standard” DC charges.
Thanks!
Folks,
I already shared my thoughts about this topic, as an Electrical Engineer (with Major in Battery) for 20+ years.
The best charging % frame is BETWEEN 30% - 70% (because 40% - 60F is really NOT possible for 90+% of people who drive an EV)
(IF you will have a Long Road Trip, charge it to 100%, then use it until 10% before you will go back to your normal 30% - 70% charging habit)
Again, just STAY WITHIN 30% - 70% and you will be fine for years to come.
Have a great day to y'all!
In our Tesla app it said set charging to 100% to maximize battery life.
@@joester4life LFP battery. That's different.
That’s 40% of usable battery. Not very practical if you don’t have home charging. Not arguing with the chemistry, that is definitely the best way to preserve the battery, it’s just not feasible for many. My view is use 5 - 80%.
A video about LFP would be great considering they will become the most prevalent battery chemistry soon.
Yeah his presentation is on the old lithium ion batteries not the lithium phosphate LFP which is much better and last 4x longer.
@@larryc1616 Yeah, you have to be pretty far down the coolaid bottle to have figured this out. Most don't have a clue about battery tech advances. Batteries will (store the) planet's power before we know it. too much FUD out there.
@@larryc1616 Better? Less energy density and slower charge and discharge rates. It's better in longevity and safety, but poor performance. No thanks.
@@OtisFlintthey are getting better all the time. The LFP Teslas atm are far better performing than the entry level NCA/NMC Teslas that proceeded them
Also I’d say they are the prevailing tech as over half of Teslas use them and Im sure for BYD it’s the same
Thanks Jason
if you abuse a gas/diesel engine and transmission with constant hard acceleration or towing huge heavy loads day in and day out and neglect changing the oils and fluids regularly being totally mad when they both give out at 80k miles instead of 300k miles. its just basic care of a different variety.
You still get more life out of ICE dollar for dollar.
@@fochdischitt3561 A cheap ICE. A very cheap one.
We're now starting to see reports of well cared for EVs leaving their previous owners hands after 10 years with more than 90% of their battery life remaining. That exceeds the longevity of ICEs by a substantial margin, which by ten years have usually developed numerous, troubling mechanical faults.
EVs just have less moving parts. There's less to wear down, it's more chemistry, and the fewer moving parts, the more materials science improvements effect longevity. ICE engines are also struggling to match both the efficiency and usability of electric motors, and the tech industry is being pushed continually by regulators towards right to repair.
The main long term cost of EVs for owners at the moment is the cost of repair. Once that's regulated and third party after market replacements become commonplace, the cost of EVs will drop like a stone.
The batteries in our cell phones and power tools are lithium ion as well I believe so these tips can apply to those as well. Interesting stuff. Thanks
That's also why Samsung and a few other device manufacturers are giving you the battery health option. Instead of 100%, it'll stop at 80% max. This keeps it from losing capacity over time.
Thank you for this important teaching.
Thank you very informative
I def need an LFP Battery video like this!!
(For my Tesla Model 3 RWD)
Yes please
That's what I have
No worries with LFP. You just need to fully charge to 100% at least 1x/month for optimal battery health lasting 500k-1M miles to 60-80% capacity
@@larryc1616 Tesla recommends at least 1x per week though.
For my charging habits: It's like the opposite, 1 or 2 days of not charging at all (per week). Most of the time I charge it to 100% (at home), because that's what I heard from Tesla or other people.
@@larryc1616the greater point of discussion with LFP is what to do in the interim between 100% charges. ie: is there an optimal state of charge or simply charge to 100% each day
@@peejayem4700to 100% anytime is best for LFP
Dude, you're awesome! Going into so much depth with this, into chemistry, manufacturing, citing experimental results etc. is just awesome. Thank you!
Very informative. Showed me a lot of insight to good economical tips. Will bare these in mind when I eventually get an EV (not for a long time lol)
Thanks. This was so informative.
Thanks Jason! I generally followed these rules over the past decade, but having explanations behind it helps to further educate more people.
I've had 6 EVs and I did an unintentional experiment on one of them, a 2013 Fiat 500e.
For 20k miles, I charged to 100%, and drove it to 10-15% twice a day. At the start of those 20k miles, I had 22 kWhs of usable capacity. By the end, I had 18 kWhs.
The next 20k miles, I had moved closer to work, and began only charging to 80%, and drove it down to 30%, once a day. In that 20k miles, I only lost 1 kWh of usable battery capacity.
So I slowed my degradation from ~20%, down to ~5%, every 20k miles.
Battery degradation is supposed to reduce over time so that might explain some of it.
@rogerphelps9939 true. I didn't want to many stats, but my first 20k miles were between 30,000-50,000 from 2019-2020, and the second 20k was from 50,000-70,000 odo miles, from 2020-2023.
It had already degraded from 24 kW-22kWh usable, in the first 30,000 miles and 6 years, when I purchased it used.
I would like to see a full video on the fast charging topic you mention at the end. I've noticed that if I slow charge from a low percentage up to 100% then I get about 10% more range compared to charging at a fast charger.
I am not educated about this at all, but If I were to guess, I think it might be parasitic loss from heat. Faster charging speeds = higher voltage = more energy = more heat
My uneducated assumption is that some energy is being turned into heat energy rather than transferring to the battery 100% of the way. Again, this is my uneducated guess, I'm not at all an expert about this and only have a faint understanding of the concept.
Easy answer: Tesla superchargers recommend right on your computer screen - limit 80%. Two reasons.
1.) 100% (80-100% take almost as long as 40-80%, so unless you need the extra 20% to get to your next charge station - don’t waste the time.
2.) at 100% and especially in warm temps outside - you don’t want to sit idle ( batteries will loose your future range capacity through heat/hot chemical reactions that can easily be avoided at 80% max charge. ( think of it as a topped up to full gas tank sitting idle on a hot day - it may spill over loosing range) EV’s would be loosing range by vapour spillover ( my thoughts), but unlike gas lost in the moment, it’s like range lost forever 🧐
Thank you. Great video, easy to understand explanation.
Also, the same best practise principles would be good for other battery powered devices, as well. E.g. smartphones.
i always take for granted that information like this isn't common knowledge, thanks for informing people.
We recently upgraded to an EV6 and absolutely adore it. We're also keeping it between 40 and 80% SoC with the rare charge to 100% SoC.
We previously had a 2017 Kia Soul EV with a 27kWh battery. With the car's lack of battery thermal management and no apparent way to set a max SoC target, the battery degraded rather quickly. Max range new was around 90 miles. Our range despite getting 3.5-4mi/kW was only about 50mi max lol. It was definitely a "My First EV". We thanked it for its service and upgraded to an adult EV(the aforementioned EV6) and we absolutely love it. Our EV6 is set to 80% SoC max which translates to about 300miles of range in the winter. 0% complaints there.
One darn good car!
300 miles in the winter?! Just got an EV6 and I'm hardly getting 320km at 80% here in Canada... Is it the RWD version that you are speaking of?
I’d like a video going further in depth on the effects of a cold climate on vehicle batteries. I love watching any of your videos on my free time. Keep inspiring people like me to pursue an engineering degree!
Thanks for the kind words, appreciate ya watching!
The channel Out of Spec Reviews has done several videos with real world tests of how cold affects EVs.
The very high level info for operating an EV in the cold is that it's best to have it plugged in when not in use. To precondition the battery before walking out the door or doing DC Fast Charging, and that in the worst case scenario you can lose up to half of your range when it is extremely cold.
That said, plenty of people in places like Canada and Norway are driving EVs and don't seem to have a problem with it.
Cold is bad for battery performance but cold is good for battery longevity.
I just got a Chevy Bolt, so this is perfectly timed. Thank you!
Time to sell that garbage.
Buddy upset at people enjoying their vehicle lmao
I charge my Tesla Model 3 Long Range to 55% nightly at home. I usually only use 10 to 15 percentage points of battery daily. So, I am typically in a short usage/charging cycle range of 40% to 55% daily. I do charge to a higher percentage for heavy use or trip days. Thanks for the video!
Even after all this information I still hear people spreading nonsense of battery degradation because their cousin Pete, who knows a guy, who has and uncle, who has a neighbor, that seen on UA-cam that an Uber/lyft driver who drives a Tesla. His battery pack failed because he used it too much.
5:44 the crack looks like the Tesla logo lol
Great video. Very informative.
Fascinating! I know what ive seen on tool batteries is similar, i generally do not store them more than 75% if i know they are going to sit longer than a week or two. I suppose i need to watch the other video if the composition is different
I wish tool batteries do what DJI drone batteries do. If they sit around for a few days at 100%, they automatically discharge themselves to 60-70%.
I was hoping you would get into low charge issues. I regularly do a long drive where I use 70% of my battery. Is it better to overcharge a bit to avoid a very low battery by the time I get home, or vise versa?
Low battery percentage is fine, but it's kinda a comfort thing. It feels more relaxing knowing you'll arrive home at 15%, rather than say 2%, in case an issue pops up and you get stuck/etc.
@@EngineeringExplained Typically, you'll leave around 50 to 100km of reserve. That's when many normal cars indicate that the fuel tank is completely empty (it isn't).
When a battery gets empty, the internal resistance increases and thus the temperature can rise quickly if a lot of power is drawn. A known issue, for example in RC models. It should be avoided.
Charging to 100%, like for overnight, is better than discharging below 10%, so charge it up and park it with as much capacity left as possible.
Hi could you do one for LFP batteries aswell, i am from India here the largest ev maker by he name: TATA makes ev cars with lfp battery composition and many manufacturers seem to be switching to lfp batteries here.Our climate is hot and roads are under developed. I want o know what makes lfp batteries better than nmc bateries for our climate.
Non-extended range Teslas are also LiFePO4 batteries
LFP are very baf in cold temperatures. Specifically you cannot charge them under 0 dec C. The main advantage is cost, so of course it will be the main choice if the temperatures don't go too low
LFP is a great chemistry. Only major downsides are that they are heavier and take up more space per kwh than NMC/NCA. Bad for very long range EVs or lightweight EVs, but great for general EVs.
@@anthonypelchat do the have more charge cycles vs nmc?
@@danielvipin7163 Typically, yes. Some of the cheapest LFP would be in line or possibly below the highest end NMC. But that's just extremes. If you get decent LFP cells, they are normally going to last longer than NMC for the same kwh.
That said, when it comes to cars, you aren't tracking age in cycles. Rather you are tracking in miles or km. And NMC packs are normally larger capacity, allowing for more miles/km per charge cycle. So they may even out in that case.
This is a very informative and important video. I ussually think that it is better to charge a battery at 20% to 80% rather than small charges in between, now i know i should do small charges for my phone, and if i ever own an ev on the future..
It is hard though to store ev away from heat in my country, as i live at a tropical country, so maybe if i ever own EV in the future, it is better to set to charge only to 70% at max.
Point 2 about deep cycle battery use also applies to the classic lead-acid units. However they are resilient to constant charging and are not overly impacted by being at full charge.
Although I don't have an electric car, I'm sure a lot of this can also apply to e-bikes as well.
Pretty much any LiPo, yup. Unless it uses LiFePo, then idk
So the interesting part for me in fast charging, that a study showed a graph of 2 car's battery degradation. One was charged 90% on the Supercharger network, the other one was charged 90% at home. The graph didn't show major difference in between the two. So that means I should be safe with fast charging on a daily basis? Well not really.
There was an other guy couple months ago, who used his model 3 for riding Uber, and he supercharged his car twice a day (yes edge case, but it happended, and it would happen with other drivers who have to make long trips often for some reason.). His battery died after a year, driving "only" 120k miles, due balancing issues. Warranty is limited to 100k... Bummer (or well calculated?)
The degradation itself just one factor among the all of the failures these batteries can "produce".
That uber driving scenario sounds like one that could be avoided by periodically slow charging to 100%. Balancing all the cells every few dozen cycles never hurts.
Yeah I believe it was a standard range and he charged it always past 90. So no wonder his battery didn’t last. I did ubering with my 2018 model 3 long range for like 4 months full time and supercharged twice a day but never went past 70/75 percent. Lost about one mile after I stopped ubering. Staying below 80 percent for daily use really does help and why it’s recommended by the manufacturer. The car even tells you lol. Only do past 80 when I’m going on vacation.
Thank you for this Video! I always appreciate the time that you put in to your streams. I have Crosstrek PHEV and I tend to charge it to 90-95% because I use all of its range each day. I did not know that it was better to charge smaller ranges more often. I will try to charge multiple times a day so that the cycles are covering a smaller range. Also, I know some companies like Subaru and Toyota keep a certain range of the battery for a buffer. I assume that this means when I charge to 100%, it is really more like 95% in truth?
Yes, especially true for PHEVs which will have a bit more restriction, because they know the battery's "full" capacity is going to be used more frequently. I wouldn't hesitate to hang out at 90%, as there's likely a healthy buffer.
@@EngineeringExplained Thank you again for the great info!
I have an XC60 PHEV and a volvo sales rep explicitly told me it was okay to regularly charge to 100% (as indicated by the car), because that’s actually closer to 80-90% of the true capacity. I hope he was correct!
And this is why I don’t own an EV. Ice or hybrids for my lifestyle
Extremely interesting and timely. Thanks.
fyi, most of these also count for your phone battery life!
What doesn't?
so its like saying I bought a 1TB drive but I can only store upto 750GB, any higher the data will not be guaranteed stored.
Yes, it's kind of like that. Fortunately, most people don't need to store over 750GB. And most people drive only about 40 miles a day.
It’s the same with hard disks too
Idk if you’ve ever had one but a 1024GB (1TB) hard disk only has about 800-900GB real space and that’s after factoring for the error between gigabyte and gibibyte
Aha, you are that "most people" kind of guy, that think your job commute of 5km, from a house with 3 electric charger installed to a job that also have electric chargers are "most peoples" situation. And we should just neglect all that are not "most people" because it works for you. Let´s throw in that horse and wagon argument too, that is100% irrelevant for the people that can not have an electric car. Oh, and make up a story about a 3000 mile roadtrip where you did not have to wait for charging even once, because you need to go to the toilet for 45 minutes every 2nd hour@@tjshire
@@thoos192, I'm not sure what your point is here. Yes, I referred to the average distance most Americans travel in a day, which is well within the capabilities of most EVs, even in freezing temperatures when EVs will have a range 30% below EPA estimates. Are you implying that my comment is misleading or not factual? If so, please present your data.
But they already do, there are spare blocks to replace bad ones. So a better comparison is that you buy a 1TB hard drive, it's just that the manufacturer needed to create a 1.1TB hard drive. It's all about the semantics then.
Thank you for your informative video. It's interesting because I'm looking to buy a Hyundai Ioniq 38kwh version and I asked about charging and they said show charging at home to 100% and fast charging to only 80%...
Thank you for the link for Jeff Dunn presentation.
Is there any way to determine how and EV was used/charged if you’re shopping on the used market? I know vehicles can show degradation amount but would that tell the whole story about how it’ll perform for a 2nd or 3rd owner?
There are a couple of third party apps that can track this, and Tesla vehicles have the ability to do a self-diagnosis that can show if there's been battery degradation, but I believe you can only access that info via the service menu. (You can find videos on how to do this on YT.)
@@MrJustinOtis gotcha, yeah so probably prudent to have one of those OBDII diagnostic tools/apps when shopping around. I presume then it’ll just show the level of degradation but not any detail like how often it was lest sitting at 100% or how many DCFC cycles it has experienced? Just want to keep in the know when it does eventually come time to get a new vehicle like an EV how to find the best one.
@@ALMX5DP- some cars do count fast charge kwh and cycles.
Most of these battery saving practices should be known to people already even if you don't know the "why?" part . Because all these are discussed for smartphones using lithium batteries almost 10 years ago.
People didn't care till now, because they replace phone after 18 months on average, so nobody can even notice degradation in that time.
The problem is, a lot of the tribal knowledge about batteries predates Li-Ion batteries -- advice such as "the first charge should be to 100%" don't apply to modern batteries, yet it persists. Similarly, a lot of things that DO apply to modern batteries haven't achieved the same level of cultural penetration.
Case in point, I'm pretty well connected as far as EV insider knowledge is concerned, and even I thought using a supercharger to even get to 70% was awful for the battery. According to this video, though, it's really not a big deal.
The high speed charging option is provided only to batteries that are designed to for fast charging. Again the only reason why you shouldn't be using a fast charger is because of the heat produced during fast charging. If you can maintain a low temperature during fast charging, its pretty much same as slow charging.
@@MariuszChryep exactly the reason. Back when smartphones were introduced people really cared about getting the maximum life out of battery. But these days smartphones are comparatively cheap so no fuzz over it. That day for cars is also not that far.
Nice summary with great tips. Thanks!
GREAT info! Thank you!
I did this with my phone and it's only just starting to get a shorter battery life after 5-6 years. Tried to keep it between 30 and 80% battery when I could.
I fully charge mine every night. I e had it for four years now and the battery still seems the same as when it was new. I'm a fairly heavy user and normally have about 35% remaining by the time I go to bed.
I ALSO have a 6+ year old phone which is charged to 100% EVERY night but has rarely, IF EVER, seen a SOC below 50%. My needs are simple and I simply don't use the phone for watching videos, gaming, etc. The ONLY Social Media platforms I use are email, text messages, and Signal for strictly family relationships. Not interested in Facebook, Instagram, Tik Tok, nor X (Twitter). I control my phone's usage, IT does not control my life! It's so sad to see people's faces buried in their damn phone screen virtually constantly.
@@Japplesnap Set a charge limit and you'll double the life and still make it through the day.
Which phone? My battery health is on 92% after two years only. I did it like you 🤷♂️
@@cachememory Samsung. That's all I buy after switching from Motorola 10 years ago. I like to keep my phone for at least 3 years minimum.
Don't the manufacturers put an artificial software cap on the charge so instead of being at 100% you're really at 98% in order to mitigate overcharge?
Sure, Tesla even has more range than 0km left actually beung 12km left. Tesla cars charge to 90% by default and Tesla sells different sizes with the same battery but dofferent software limits.
Generally yes, though the best practices remain (say it's 98%, it's still a higher voltage and thus impacts degradation).
@@Loanshark753I don't think that's the case with Tesla for a few years now. It was only happening with Model S/X before 2020 (the ones with a number suggesting the battery size like 75d,90d, 100d, p85 etc).
Currently model 3/y standard range has different battery than long range/performance
@@ReximPL The SR Model 3 and Model Y use the lithium ion phosphate batteries, iirc.
@@Loanshark753He's talking about a hidden limit the owner can't see, basically a buffer. The car will show the owner that it's at "100%" even when it technically isn't.
Such great videos you make Jason - thanks!
Re charge percentage - my Mini Cooper SE has a very small battery so I need 100 usable percent all the time. BMW says they purposely cap accessible charge at 28kW of the battery’s 32kW total. I’m assuming this is to automatically prevent true 100 percent charge degradation that you reference?
Thank you!
TLDR: Don't store battery at 100% (for long periods of time). Don't wait until the battery is completely empty to recharge, just plug it in after every trip if you can. Don't charge to 100% every time. Charge to 75% if you can instead.
In other words, don't use the car as designed.
@@Ozark_Bule not really make sense like that, as this applies to all gadgets also, phones, laptops, etc. If you want to prolong their battery life in the long term you will take a little more care of them (when possible).
Or just buy a ICE car and enjoy life.
EVs are still very problematic.
@@HUMC5ice cars can be very problematic too if they are not maintained correctly
I have a 2018 model 3 long range with 130,000 miles. I charge it to only 75 percent and degradation has been minimal. They even recommend to not charge past 80 unless needed. So it’s definitely being used as intended. It’s been the simplest car yet. Maintenance has been minimal as well compared to all the ICE I’ve owned. No problems. Going strong. Both can be problematic yes but it’s all on how you take care of it.
I own a Model 3 for three years now and I can't charge at home. I drive 650 km a month, short distance commuting. I exclusively use Superchargers once a week. Everything is fine with the car, still 460+ km of range at 100%.
Why did you buy a tesla if you can't charge from home? In my area the cost per mile is literally twice of the cost of a prius if you charge at a supercharger.
@@jimfarmer7811STFU. There is no Tesla supercharger in the lower 48 that is literally twice the price of a Prius. None.
@@TonyShepps according to Google supercharger can charge up to $ .50/kwh. At 4 miles per kwh a tesla model 3 would cost $ .125 per mile. With the current gas price of $2.80 at 55 mpg a prius would cost $.051 per mile. This may be an extreme example but clearly in all cases it will cost more for fuel to drive a tesla than a prius. Also don't forget the tesla tires last half as long and cost twice as much to replace.
@@jimfarmer7811 Please point me to the actual Tesla supercharger in the lower 48 that costs $.50/kWh. I've never encountered one in 3.5 years of ownership and supercharging in 12 states. My average charge in 2023 was $.32. Lowest $.24, highest $.36. Of course most of my charging is at home, where it's half that price.
And I will happily put any additional price of my tires against just the *routine* maintenance of oil, oil filters, coolant, water filters, belts, lubrication and adjustment, and worst of all, having to go to the gd dealership every six months.
But the best thing about having an M3LR versus a Prius is: HOLY CRAP I GET TO DRIVE AN M3LR AND NOT A PRIUS!!!
@@TonyShepps Seriously you are comparing the $120/yr I pay for scheduled maintenance to your tesla. I would be embarrassed to admit that I bought a car that depreciated $25,000 to $30,000 in 3 years. You must not have retirement plans.
Fantastic informative video 👍
Really appreciate the in depth reasons for best practice battery care. In my case the power rates are lower off peak, but I will still want to keep the car plugged in so the battery cooling can take place in hot weather.
defining what "hot" is critical
In the study they found heat played a big role even at 35 C, though not nearly as much as 50 C. Hope it's not 50 C where you're at!
Jason is the definition of "hot" 😜😜😜
@@EngineeringExplained I'm at the 35C-46C max (Houston) with just a bit...small bit of water in the air...barely humid at all
The manufacturer already prevents you from charging to 100% already. Generally when it says 100% on the dash it is actually somewhere in the 95-98% from the actual battery capacity. The same on the other end, you can actually drive most EVs for quite a few miles at 0 on the dash and then they cut off power to the vehicle before the true 0 at the battery level to avoid long term damage.
This extends the charge cycles to help ensure the battery lasts longer than the warranty period within the guidlines of the warranty so they can ensure the consumer is on the hook for the inevitable replacement and not under warranty.
Great video! Thanks.
Thanks for these recommendations and the explanations.
I often use our PV surplus for charging the car in a range of 1,4 kW to around 5 kW.
I heard that charging at low power levels is also bad for the battery.
Is that true?
Best regards
Jens
Manufacture should advertise the range based on 80% charged battery and with ac or heat on at a reasonable temperature all the time.
LFP doesn't have this problem with the older lithium ion batteries and last 4x longer
@@larryc1616 LFP also has lower density, though. There are trade-offs, but for most LFP will be the superior option.
Why..
Unless you are in the insignificant portion of the population that needs the full range of the vehicle every charge.
Nothing wrong with charging to 100 percent occasionally for a long road trip.
By the way.
New gas cars require the fuel pump to be immersed in gasoline to keep cooled.
That means you should not drive your gas car down to zero gas in the tank.
Should their range be adjusted also?
@@thomaswilson2917 ok but in-tank fuel pump = $200-$300 and dropping the fuel tank
EV battery: between $10,000 and $30,000 depending on vehicle and manufacturer
@@lsswappedcessna you refurbish a EV battery if it every needs replacing..
Notice the word IF..
Yes it costs more but the discussion was about range reporting..
This basically applies to phones too. Ever since I destroyed my first smartphone battery over the course of a year back in 2012 (whereas with my dumbphone it lasted a whole week) with daily overnight charging, now I adhere to the 80/20 rule and haven't had any battery problems. So far my current phone has served well for almost four years now.
Don't fully dis/charge, don't let the device get hot. Easy.
Thanks for detail explanation on battery charging Engineer E’!
I have a couple of Tesla.(2018 model X and 2023 model 3 P) after I saw your post I’m regretting charged my Tesla to 90% daily even I don’t drive them daily.(as I am currently a retiree) Tell me if I should adjusted my charging to 80% from now on or it doesn’t make a different in my case? Please advice.
My 2018 model X 100D got a free lifetime supercharging with 30k miles so far.
My 2023 model 3P has only using my home charger. Had been charging to 90% and never used a supercharger yet.
Great video. I would love to see you do one specifically on LFP batteries, like the one in the Model 3 RWD. There is a lot of confusion around what is the best charging practice is, for battery longevity on the Model 3 LFP, because Tesla says to set the charge percent to 100%. Would love to know your thoughts on optimal charging habits for that battery.
Unfortunately Stellantis didn't implement any functionality to limit the SoC, so if I forget to stop the charging manually it will end up at 100%.
It's ok during the winter months, but in the Summer a limit at 75 or 80 % would be a quite useful feature.
Or just buy a gasoline vehicle and be safe!
@@tullo5564 yeah, that would be significantly more expensive and I'd have to waste so much time when driving to gas stations.
Additionally I'd have to blast all my waste-gases in the streets where people are walking and I'm not sure if they'd be happy with that.
@@das_f.l.x Filling up a gas tank is "significantly" easier and way faster. Furthermore, lithium mining produces more environmental hazards than a diesel/petrol powered vehicle would ever produce. So kindly get your facts straight, that would help you "significantly"
@@tullo5564 That's actually not true. There's no need to drive to a specific station just to refill an electric vehicle. You would just park it inside your garage and it will be charged the next time you use it. The average time I've spent for this process would be around 15-20 seconds, because there is no need to supervise your car while charging.
Regarding your claims about raw materials, please feel free to provide a scientific study with appropriate methodology to proove your point.