Someone has to! I'm fully prepared for the Corporate Defenders to come out and tell me how CMON is great and this was all just a train of oopsies on CMON's part.
CMON seems like a style over substance company. Good mini's, average mechanics. Ankh seems to be trying to be a short game with lame catch up mechanics. CMON needs Ankh to keep their pirate ship afloat, start bailing out now!
@@chasethecat2399 LOL! Incidently, they also tend to make a few GREAT games as well every so often. I think the only game I've gotten from them that I actually kind of dislike is Rising Sun. It's not so much that they are bad, but they are very mass marketed and it very often shows. It's like before they even go to the designers they have some focus tests and check a bunch of boxes and then go to the designers and say: make me a game that is this theme and does these things. Obviously half the time it'll be neat, bot nut overly so. Other times they might actually hit a home run instead of bunting haha
Sean Dooley ... it didn’t say or specify that the game would be available before the KS delivery, do believe that should’ve been made aware to us, then let’s us make our decision to opt into KS exclusives?
Always. ALWAYS. You *ALWAYS* give preferential treatment to the people who supported you. Otherwise, as certain companies have found, those supporters take away their support...
@Sean Dooley I'm not a massive fan of exclusives. I personally believe a Kickstarter campaign should be there to print the complete game for companies who are just starting up and could not normally afford the expense. I think maybe they should get a limited edition box or something like that. But sadly Kickstarter doesn't work the way I would want it to.
I remember during the Green Horde KS they made a “surprise” announcement in update 54, where they did a two-wave shipment, but did not charge for it. Now, they want extra money. How the mighty have fallen...
@7:08 and the following seconds: What's that sound? Someone trying to break through your ceiling? The CMON PR guy who wants to get out of that trunk? Great video btw :D
LOL! A literal gag order! Nah just one of my kids being loud when they shouldn't :) In a normal video I could re-record and edit out, but I was kind of "in the moment" so excuse the slightly less quality audio portion :)
I canceled mine. As soon as I saw the retail was Aug this year I was like wait what. We must get ours around June or July. I was wrong. This game was coming out no matter if the Kickstarter failed or not. They just wanted more money up front first.
As a backer of this campaign, I didn’t really care until you brought up brick and motor stores. That’s a great point and with the economy slowing, man it would have been nice to offer the retail version through local game stores and only KS exclusives during this campaign. That’s a solid point and I hope some company does that in the future. Keep up the good fight
Just found your channel, as i am new to games. Backed this game as well and now i feel dirty supporting them :-D Still in love with the game idea and the minis, but you are right! Thanks for the honesty - i will now rewatch all your videos :-P
Heya Oldboy and welcome! Don't feel so bad about backing it :) We're all consumers and have to deal with what we have available to us. As I said in the video myself, I hate it because while I dislike how they treat consumers often, there are times where they do a lot of good as well and I very much enjoy a lot of their games! In fact for the last two years one of their games has gotten my Game of the Year award!
Whilst I backed the game and don't regret that decision at all I honestly have to agree with every point raised here. Some very shady practices being put in place and CMON have made it clear that they don't value their backers on any kind of personal level any more. At this point we're just pre-order money and check marks in boxes. On a separate note I was lucky enough to get into the PM before it closed and although I can't remember exactly Im fairly certain shipping prices were reasonable and inline with what I've seen other games ship at lately. Certainly I wasn't shocked by them at least so they couldn't of been that bad! Regardless I wanna say thank you for your content while I'm here. Always look forward to your videos and I love the no nonsense, tell it as it is approach that you take. It's exactly what's needed in the community and you're viewers appreciate you for it. Awesome job, keep doing what your doing!
We are not pre-order-money because we get the games later every time. We are free credit they can forget. And fun think Retailer Pledges with all the "exlusives" Stuff are normaly shipet with the Retail Copy. This going on now for at least a year.
@TwistedThistle I also made it into the Pledge Manager and completed my 2 wave shipping prior to them shutting it down, but I also received a message stating the amount I paid for shipping was too low and I would have to go back in and up my payment to make up for the difference! Haven't decided what I'm going to do yet, but we shall see tomorrow. If the 2 wave shipping is astronomical then I will simply have Visa get my money back for me if CMON will refuse me a refund.
Thanks Twisted I really appreciate it, and good info for sure! What I really feel for is the $1 backers that didn't have a chance to add all their products and see what shipping should be around. This really screwed them over more than most I think, especially if they were $1 backers as money is a bit tighter.
Spot on my friend! I've been done with CMON for a while now. I know I'm missing out on some really good games, but I won't put a dime in these d-bags pockets. Hopefully more people see the light. Thanks again for looking out!
If the game is going to retail then I love your suggestion of having a "everything but the core game" option. Kind of a no-brainer honestly. That way CMON keeps distributors happy, we get to support local game stores by buying the core game, and we get all the other goodies through kickstarter.
I own massive darkness. I meant that they literally just look at the monster manual and players handbook and make models that are direct rip offs of every single creature/race in many poses/loadouts and sell it. Like 3000 miniatures for an all in of 1000 dollars and no game
The Marvel KS is just as much a douchery action as they've been hammer the Time Machine backers (product they have in warehouse) and they still havn't managed to ship. I was not always a slavering CMON fan to begin with but I backed Bloodborn and Trudvang cause I loved the themes. Time Machine came along and I thought hey I can pick up Rising Sun since it was before I started doing anything KS. Everything I've seen across the board on thier KSs just shows how bad their customer service, support and actually caring about customers is. I've said it before and you showed some great breakdowns of CMONs retail vs KS funds, if we the consumers really want to express our displeasure, stop giving them our KS dollars. Watch how quick an impact that will have when it affects their bottom line and all those insta-dollars to pad things dries up. End my rant, kudos for you speaking some truth for their business practices. Peace
Cthulhu: Death May Die or Zombiecide Invaders anyone. Retaill Versions weeks earlyer then backers and Retail Pledges with all the "Kickstarter Exlusives" to! And after shiping to Europe the All in Version in Shops was even cheaper.
I loathe CMON. I'm not a fan of their business practices. Monolith isn't far off too. Certifiable Studios, Dice Throne and Greenbrier have my respect. You know exactly what you're getting into.
Can’t agree about Greenbriar due to “Dragon Tides” they sold my pledge to get their money back rather than litigation, nice not. So they wouldn’t get my p***s if on fire!
Excellent rant Michael! CMON have burned through their very last goodwill for me on the Time Machine campaign. I have supported nothing by them since. I love your idea for the option of just backing for the stretch goals and Kickstarter exclusives. That would be astonishingly consumer friendly 👍
Well said - but don't just point the finger at CMON. Kickstarter make all this possible. Kickstarter need companies like CMON to guarantee a nice fat income stream - that's why they'll probably never lift a finger to help/protect consumers.
i requested a refund. I am sick of the KSE FOMO figures. I only backed for the core and spiderman. But retail coming out right around the corner and no gameplay video. Ok Done. Time to stop giving my money for bad behavior.
Not in this case cause I didnt back it. However based on the past, the only CMON KS I did end up backing was Hate and that was cause it was a KSE. All others I opted to buy retail. Often pre-ordering KS versions cheaper than if I had backed.
Appreciate someone standing up to these companies.I have a ton of cmon games I have backed and I'm disappointed in what they did here. I think its a mistep and hopefully they learn from this. Man vs Meeple also called them out in a tweet.
Hopefully learn from, but I doubt it :( Happy to hear MvM called them out, though after looking at it the tweet is a super softball call out, but better than nothing! :D
This is a funny video. Contradicting your previous videos. Your anger and frustration is common. I think the way UA-camrs who label their videos to get clicks and controversy stirred up are being manipulative, but do you think UA-cam is going to stop the click bait tactics? Nope. We all have our ways of getting what we want, and it is usually at the expense of others.
Hah! What's contradicting about this? I've been singing this tune for quite some time very openly so confused what you think would be contradicting? As for clickbait, I hope you aren't referring to my video. If I wanted clickbait I'd have put something about Coronavirus in the title for easy clicks. No one is baited here. The subject of the video is exactly in the title and within the first few seconds I tell you as such.
LOL not if that's what the video is about. You might be confused between two words: "bait" and "enticing" - every single custom made thumbnail and written title is made to be enticing, on every channel. Otherwise we'd just have the video ID from the camera as the title and the thumbnail would be blank white. Bait, is something that looks enticing, but is a lie. It's the hook made to look like a nice meal. You often see this with junk like "10 Amazing facts on how to cure AIDS! Number 3 will surprise you!" My video describes exactly what I'm talking about. There's no bait and switch and I don't beat around the bush about it either. You read my title, you know exactly what the video is about.
The King of Average. CMON is EVIL. CAPS. You are baiting people. That’s what your title does. If you are blind to that, okay, your channel your rules. You have a grudge against CMON, okay. However, contradictory to your previous video, CMON does, more than not, meet all three of your criteria for running a good Kickstarter. That’s contradicting. Just because they burn some people on shipping dates, that is unfortunate. But the amount of stuff we get for the price is on par. I agree that CMON has abused Kickstarter as a preorder platform, and not so much a kick start system, but it’s not illegal. How about we just look at CMON as a company that is selling retail product using KS as an advert platform. That should fix your assumption that we are “backers”. I get it. I feel your frustration. I have been there, but let yourself be free of consumer supply and demand assumptions with KS. I know it doesn’t feel good, but...you belittle Marvel United without ever playing the game, you did the same for Return to Dark Tower in your previous videos. Again, your channel, your rules, but listen. It’s just petty. Use that energy to do what you love. This is like watching a movie star who has become famous start chiming in on politics. I just want to watch them in movies. That’s what they do best. You have great talent being wasted on berating CMON and the business side of our hobby. You begin to cater your channel to people who enjoy negatives and if that is what you want, then, again, your channel. Build the audience you want. CMON Kickstarters provide 1. Exclusive content. 2. Cheaper (than retail). 3. Sooner (most of the time). CMON is not Evil, they are a company. You’re describing EVERY for-profit company.
I am wondering ... was Zombicide the first large KS board game project or was there something else that started this trend of board game kickstarters? And how was CMON back then? I know your schedule is full, but it could be interesting concept about history and beginnings of the Kickstrarter board games and indie companies.
@KIngOfAverage I absolutely LOVE your idea of offering a 'KS only' pledge where the consumer buys the core game at FLGS. This campaign had 37 exclusive minis and 2 exclusive expansions at the all-in pledge. I am sure many backed because of this. Getting KS exclusives on the secondary market can often be frustrating and or expensive. I prefer to look on BGG for my CMON KS games; eventually someone sells their game (often NIS) at a discount. It is true I might have to wait 5 years to play the game, but I've got more than I can play right now, and it will still be new to me in 5 years. *chuckles*
I totally agree. CMON has gone from bad to worse through the years. Its sad. One day, this crap will bite them back in the butt. It wont be today, or tomorrow............ but one day.
Unfortunately I doubt CMON will ever change their business practice and keep abusing Kickstarter because it makes them the most profit. I stopped backing their games because I quickly grew to dislike the way they run their kickstarters. But as you mentioned, unfortunately, they do make some good games and they also buy out a lot of licenses and then toss them back up on Kickstarter. Bloodborne was real hard for me to pass on but I did, and I’m sure I’ll have the same issue when they reveal their cyberpunk game.
Totally agree. I hate their business model. Stretch goal in ks mostly add new hero for replayability, 4p coop game with 40 hero (20 being ks exclusive), its just lazy, not replayability (while other company can make a whole new expansion with that). Another one is they put a little of ks exclusive extra in every add on they sell in the ks (people with fomo will either all in or dont buy at all). Not to mention they can release 4-8 add on in a single project,clearly they already plan it before and have no need of ks. And another thing is they keep milking the same mechanic over and over again like zombicide 8 seasons total (just make a new theme and some new mechanic). I swear ankh will be my last game from them (too bad im a fans of eric lang since chaos in the old world).
It's been long running off and on. Were you around for the "it'll take us too long to make the giant Cthulhu so we're going to hyper limit how many can get it each month and raise the price because reasons" only to then make all of them months ahead of time? That's a classic! :D
I wouldn't say I hate CMON but I have literally experienced some of the stuff you were talking about. I was so completely pissed at the lack of communication during the Blood Rage Digital (Physical Pledge) where I almost swore off CMON all together. The issue is, they do make great games.
CMoN always sells their games at retail before they fulfill Kickstarters. Arcadia Quest Riders was in stores 6 months before backers got it. AQ Inferno was about a month, Starcadia is in stores now and still most backers don't have it. Not to mention that Retail usually charges less for the games than the Kickstarter, and shipping on top of that. I totally agree with you about being able to buy the exclusives. That would be a huge improvement. Or even get rid of exclusives all together. Don't even get me started on the train wreck that was the Time Machine campaign.
They broke my heart when a lot of Zombicide Green Horde heroes were Kickstarter exclusive :/ Also the prices of their board games got more expensive than when they released years ago
Well, was going to consider CMON's next game taking place in Ancient Egypt. This video has made me reconsider that choice. God damn it CMON. Trudvang Legends might just be the last game I get from these guys. This is such BS.
I don't know. Is this such a big deal really at a certain perspective? It sucks that CMON at times has poor ethics, but is this specific situation really deal breaking? If you only want the core game then yes I can see that. But if you're in it for the exclusive extras then I don't see the big deal waiting a year to play the game which is usually the norm for waiting for a ks project. _ Someone whose situation only applies to the core game doesn't effect my situation, but it is worth noting a corporation's scummy moves towards others. What will effect everyone overall is when these disgruntled backers don't return for future projects to help out on stretch goals, and rightly so if a company continues building a bad reputation for itself.
Ahhh man. I backed this and have been waivering as to if I should cancel or not, and after watching this, I think I am cancelling. Granted I have seen you opinions on this in previous videos but I still was sticking with backing it... but not now. I'm glad you'd mentioned this though, as I did know I had to pay more for wave two, but I did not know the refunds end before the pledge manager will re open! I wanted to like this and get it for sure, but like your points, the price and business practices just weigh out to be too much for me to support. Thanks again!
I got my Death May Die 3 months later than they said it was all shipped out, with the worst customers service to explain why they said they delivered everything and mine was not... I love a lot of CMON games, but I cannot buy from a company that treat customers so badly.
Totally agree with your point of view. They are really forcing people to cancel their pledge and then late pledge to check shipping costs. I haven’t backed anything since blood borne from them and happy with my decision. Mythic Games and Awaken Realms are so much more customer focused and they will see my wallet more than CMON in the future!
Heard a rumour about this, pulled out of this particular cmon game a day before, did feel something was wrong. Such a shame, know all the KS exclusives will be on eBay at ridiculous inflated prices...oh well
The King of Average ... just so crappy....we have to pledge, sure us real gamers want a new game..,an of the shelf game...1 of my favourite games is Arkham lcg, I don’t need miniatures to play, just a friend/or not...My point is...with all the miniatures from KS. are you actually gonna use them/paint them... or just to try sell them for profit
The best defense for this every time the "kickstarter exclusives". The joke is retail pledges with all the "exclusives" wher shiped to shops with the retail Version weeks earlyer on Cuthulhu: Death May Die and Zombiecide Invaders.
Well said sir. CMON have been taking the piss for quite a while now. They have turned into the most predatory games company on kickstarter with the most manipulative practices paired with the least respect for their customers. And yes, it's a damn shame as many of their games are great, but it's getting harder to justify giving them money. Nice one on calling them out.
Always appreciate the critical feedback, I'm new to the kickstarter scene and videos like this are super helpful for people who might not be aware of a company's duplicitous practices. It's going to be a great week because I'm isolated at home and have my painting station next to my work desk.
Well said. I'm done with CMON since the Blood Rage Digital game was just another ruse to sell more minis with the digital reward being a weak afterthought.
Don't care when I receive the game. When I backed a game, I looked at the delivery schedule, the cost, and what I got back, if I think it is good, I back it. There is no point to compare whether others will get the stuff before you do. If you want to compare unfairness in life, why don't you compare why some people works so little hours and get more pay then you do.
@@ZebraCatfish73 yup, i don't mind getting later, too many game and too little time. With all the exclusive even with the base core pledge, even with shipping, i would not say I pay more. During the KS, they told you how much it cost and what and when they will delivery, that is the only relevant information I need to make a purchase decision.
The bottom line is CMON is being sneaky about how they do busy and The King of Average called them on it. But if you think they practice good business then happy days for you. Enjoy their games. I do. I just wish they'd look after and show the backers some respect. Happy gaming!
You're pretty much spot-on, sadly. CMoN has turned out some great games, and I tend to find most of the hate toward them to be overblown sour grapes, but I don't see how anybody can defend this behavior. They need to be thoroughly called out (and probably take a hit in the pocketbook, as well), or they'll only get worse.
I did'nt back it coz it's too pricey for me, but I'm sad to the backers I hope this wont happen on Ankh....But I'm afraid to back the next CMON project because of this.
Wow, i backed the game 1$ at the last second since i didnt have time to think about it right then and was waiting for the pledge manager to have a better look at it...they make good games, but this...this is master level douchebagerry. Thank you for the curated warning. I don't follow kickstarters the way i used to, so it's nice that i can rely on your news when something gets my interrest, but dont have time to be a warned consumer Keep up on your good reactivity. If you waited a scheduled weekly content to talk about it, it would have been too late for many. I truly applaud your personal investment in this
We stopped dealing with CMON, after being screwed over on our 7 Sins pledge due to their mistake - so we vowed to stop dealing with them forevermore. I see that they've upped their bad service standards since then!
I'm just really happy this didn't happen with Bloodborne. I would've been furious, and I can only imagine how disappointed Marvel United backers are. My best advice is: vote with your wallet, folks.
I backed it and couldn't care less. I backed it only for the KS exclusives, and I know the way they operate. They don't the need my money to "bring a project to life", and I'm cool with that. Kickstarter is a store front now. The sooner people accept that, the happier they'll be.
@@derekgarcia3069 For big producers like CMON kickstarter is a store front, but not for the little and medium guys. They need the support to make their games come to life.
I like your channel , it’s nice to have a reviewer call out bull shit and give bad reviews ! All these other channels give these half ass reviews and soft cookie cutter reviews so they keep getting free copies !
I really agree with likening them to the EA of Board Games. Thanks for the video. I work in marketing and might be a bit jaded but I have seen what they have been doing for over a year now and just refuse to back any of their games. They do make great games and I hope they turn things around, but I doubt they will as long as they are profitable.
Oh and even if everyone refunds through KS for MU, it won't matter because they have already said how much more money they make through retail than KS in earnings calls etc...
Meh....I'm not here to justify it, I just don't care enough. I love their KS products, I love the extras and exclusives. The fact that someone else gets the retail, not KS, version first...not something I'm losing sleep over. Is it true that they play these games? Yes. But what's the real loss here? Do I enjoy my game any less because someone else had an inferior version of it first? Not really....so no hoop jumping here, I just don't care about this stuff. I'd rather a good game with the corporate BS then a mediocre game from a great company. Love your channel btw, so take my disagreement with a healthy grain of salt :)
I'm actually still upset about time vault. I backed for a dollar, and ended up buying nothing from the time vault once I saw how they were price gouging, rather than offering the items for the same price as the original Kickstarters. They also launched it during the work day, rather than in the evening when people could be waiting at their computers
Two hypothesis... 1) Most backers back it and forget it (I am mostly like that), so most people simply just miss all these details and updates and by the time more info comes out, it is too late. 2) Again, totally my case here, I am literally backing it for the minis (because I like Chibi and I like to paint them), I could not care less for the game. I am literally looking at this as on a cost per mini basis... I will throw the game literally in the garbage when it arrives. But I think only a minority of people are like that... People are inattentive but also mostly emotionally stuck in the FOMO thing... They need to have all the extras and they wont mind all the crap.
Man of course they didn’t know that they will release the game to retail in august... how come you can be so bad to a company that make just couple of million on kickstarter? Cmon is greedy like all this giant company that look only to an insane profit and during this campaign they show what they really are... so sad
There are ppl like me who back for kickstarter exclusive stuff. In addition, my country do not have active boardgame retail store, so retail release date is never a factor. Even if some shop decided to buy it, the price is expensive as kickstarter price due to exchange rate. As long as they make good game, a lot of ppl will back it even if the service suck
The incentive to make more money is the only reason they are doing this. Gamea Workshop did far, far worse things to their player base for years. The solution with Cmon or any other company for that matter- don't back it. Imho the main benefit from backing a KS should be getting extra content. Actual extra content. This means more scenarios to play and more mechanics. No , extra minis are not extra content. Not really.And this is coming from a guy that paints between 300 and 400 minis a year. Since most KS do not offer actual extra content- do not back it. The most important thing for a game is playability. Wait for the retail version, try it at a club- find the best deal and then buy it. Great video. Subscribed
DO NOT! Paint minis when your hands are shaking! This game is a joke to me, so I'd find this refund a chance to back out from very expensive game with minis that do not bring any play value to the game. But i guess if someone stood with it to the end of campain they were commited and it sucks that CMON is trying to bend them over and have fun at their expense. Overall I can argue with anything you said. Truth have been told. Thanks for everything you're doing! Cheers!
I only backed BB and got burnt due to exuberant shipping price, lost $13 during refund. BB was $138 shipping to India, Limbo charged $45 for that huge game.
What would happen if CMON had a KS and nobody pledged? I have no intention of pledging for Ankh because I have no idea what crap they will pull off next. Don't they also have a few undelivered KS as well?
Oh, look, board game companies are taking hints from video game companies on how to not just get people's money, but to get ALL of the money. One reason I started focusing more on board games instead of video games is because this kind of thing didn't happen. This is just lovely.
luckily game didn't get me interested at all. that's completely unacceptable in my book and you backers need to push back now so that they don't do this again with ankh (and their next campaigns) - cause I can guarantee that that's gonna be an even bigger campaign
Great video and no argument here. If only there was some device to let me go back and not put an order in during the Time Machine pledge manager. It's locked as at is in the shipping phase, but with no way to tell when it will arrive. I only recently started buying these types of games and already can't stand CMON. I'll try to steer clear once I get the rest of Rising Sun and Hate. Luckily there are other companies who really seem to keep backers informed and maybe respect their customers like Dragori, Lazy Squire, and Diemension seem to.
Proof positive that Kickstarter projects, even with KS's kickback, do collect revenue for companies, and the bigger they are the more they collect. It's time to end the fallacy that projects do it just for the flex. Even actual new starters need to eat.
Also want Ankh and am interested in their upcoming digital board game system. I really like Companies like Chip Theory Games or Leder Games who have a clear communication and put customers first.
I don't always back CMON, but I do often enough to say a few things. One, they f'ed up with the shipping. That should have been said Day 1 just to avoid drama. Doesn't matter who else does this, they usually are up front about it. Maybe people don't like it, but they have the information to make that call for themselves. Two, I think shipping is going up and as long as they give accurate quotes, people have to deal with it. You yourself have said that shipping is just going to be more expensive, lots of people going to have to get used to a new reality. Still sucks to be lied to, so CMON needs to give good quotes. Three, and again I agree with you, a project should offer Exclusivity, Early Access, Cheaper Prices, or Decked Out. Hopefully all 4, but if not, as much as you can. For me, I think CMON did 2 or 3 out of 4, depending on how retail shakes out. Online retailers will have the base game cheaper, for sure, but not sure how the expansions will go. CMON is weird in that their retail presence is scattershot, so getting even MSRP stuff is hard. Still a necessary video, if only to get people informed. Click baity headline, but hell, it's UA-cam, you gotta make it work :)
Yeah totally agree, I've actually started including a assumed $30+ shipping cost into every pledge level for myself. So when I saw $60 base pledge for MU I view it as a $90+ base pledge. I wish they'd all at least add their completely wrong estimates into the pledge imagery. CMON is weird. For every campaign like Bloodborne where they actually hold backer votes and give tons of gameplay specific updates there's one like this. I swear different teams do different KS's lol As for click baity, I am making a pretty drastic statement that (ideally) I back up well, but the video title is EXACTLY what the video is about and I don't beat around the bush to get to my point either :) Now if I put out a video saying "10 things that make CMON evil - #3 will surprise you!" and then the video is just a big ad for my Patreon, please do call me out on it :D Yeah it's enticing, but I never want to confuse you guys with my titles. Ideally you never go into my videos wondering "what is this really about?" :)
I totally agree with you, to be clear :) I think we just have different ideas of 'evil.' Like, a are they as bad as fake medicine factories or baby powder manufacturers who put poison in the milk? Here in China, both happened and are on a scale apart from 'normal' (ugh) misinformation/deception. That sad, I'd take no issue if it were just CMON Sucks... and here's Why!... or something :) All that said, no issue with taking corps to task :)
They were at the time. But then your LGS didn't sell the games they made outside of Kickstarter, and they reported a sizeable loss for the year. So now they're back to Kickstarter.
Where is the “Stramforged Games is Evil!” video? They pulled the split shipping to get the game before retail move, 6 months after the game was already late. Or you could have spent more money on add-ons. Game was on Amazon in October and I might get my game in July.
People don't buy CMON games to play them. People buy CMON games because they give into hoarding. My shelves full of shrink-wrapped Kickstarter exclusives is right next to my three year supply of toilet paper.
The video was never about whether or not CMON are a likable company. It's about calling them out specifically with THIS KS and how they went about it and treated the backers. It's shameful what CMON has done and needed to be put in the spotlight for everyone to see. Great Video King of Average! 👍
Well.. i do agree with you. I actually dropped everything that has a CMON logo on, i dont like their KS sites and i think they are to expensive. They often make KS like this. Get a core game and give us all your money, then they add a lot of extras to squeeze the rest of peoples dimes. Even though et feels like those extras should be part of the core games...
Omg.... love the rant. If this is all true its total crap and I applaud you. Thanks for the video. Hope cmon makes a change. I bet they are banking on people not noticing.
right on dude! Telling it how it is. I avoided this release like the plague and tried dissuading as many other gamers as possible during the campaign coz its just FOMO bull and there no real game behind the mechanics. I wish CMON didn’t make good games as thats the only redeeming reason people take this crap. Between CMON and Asmodee the board game landscape is going the same way as console gaming: Big companies making big profits and no regard for the community or even decent moral ethics. we need people like you to keep exposure of this stuff out there, the message will get through eventually 🤞🤞
Wow. I didn't back this one because it did seem super expensive to me for what it was. Plus a bit of KS burnout of games that don't feel different and I'm trying to limit myself to games that really grab me. Everything you said hits home with me, but MAN it seemed so whiny. Maybe it's because this is like the third video in a row you have done or something that has complained about this particular game/situation. At least somebody is calling them out. Thanks for all you do and your unapologetic approach to reviews and previews.
CMON being evil isn't new news. The problem like you mentioned is that they make good games despite this. That's why people still continue to back them. People are very vocal in social media and on their Kickstarters about their BS. Won't stop them from doing that they're doing wrong.
OK, so - most of the time, I hate the people that say large companies shouldn't use Kickstarter - I'd rather give my money to the people that make the game than any retailer, and I prefer companies to use Kickstarter because if they know a title will sell a lot of copies, they can upgrade the components. The Rising Sun kickstarter edition is beautiful. BUT - I do agree with KoA that CMON should have been more straightforward with backers that the retail would be available so much sooner, and I agree that freezing the pledge manager until after the refund deadline should be forbidden.
Yup... totally agree. Great games, horrible company policies. It's painful to admit it sometimes. Last night I had a fantastic 5 player game of Cthulhu:DMD, great game...
Not sure that CMON will notice if a few people cancel their pledge. As you said in an earlier video we are a niche of a niche. But at least you got that out of your system and can enjoy your week with a clear mind. I don't know how people can stand being treated like this by a company, I'm already pissed off when I see bs out of reach stretch goals in a campaign...
Never understood peoples outrage about retail getting their games first. It's not like retail gets the exact same product as KS backers as they wont get all the KSE exclusives. People act like businesses shouldn't make money. I know they're not your type of games, but do you think Sam Philips is evil too because after a couple of months when the game goes to retail, it's cheaper by about $20? I feel backers believe companies should just bend over for them because they backed on KS, which just isn't true. But yeah if this type of stuff makes you unhappy, just don't back the company.
Dude - how do you fell about Monolith and their newest Conan campaign? I rly fell like the game is small compared to the price, and the SG are even worse...
@@marmank You dont think its a problem, both the game and SG are so small? Its 1 board compared to 4 boards in their 2015 game. Not even the 2 small flip pirateship boards where a SG. And they are not selling any addons (old ones) before after the end of the campaign.
@@unclemongrel-setsailforfai6147 The price for all of the stuff was fair. There were loads of new scenarios and a lot of ne minis for me. The ship boards are as big as one normal board together. There are only a limited number of add-ons, since they are only available from stock. They are now looking into doing a reprint and we all got a survey for that already. I also liked what they did with the SG's and adding stuff to the add-ons as SGs. But, we all like different things :)
Now that I think of they kind pulled the same crap with the CMON Time Machine. I wonder how many people would have paid the $1 to buy into a lottery of known warehouse items with known quantities with the $15+ shipping charges tacked on. Yeah, it's only $1 but add that to the thousands of backers, it adds up to a nice little profit for CMON. So in the end it becomes a mass panic of FOMO where people who are kept in the dark, blindly throw money at them. While people choose to buy something or not, it's a bit underhanded and manipulative. BTW, I'm really liking what you are doing with this channel.
I just received my 1st CMON game today from Amazon. Cthulhu Death May Die. Got all the retail products. Unboxed it and quality was awesome. Looking forward to play it. Very disappointing what they did with Marvel. I was close to backing, glad I did not.
@@stephendavis7327 they do the two wave shipping. I didn't pay over $40 for my Nemesis pledge to ship and got my copy about a year and a half after it was out in retail. By the time I got it, you could buy Nemesis for half off the MSRP.
@@s3vn77 They do split shipping, but they have the costs on the campaign pages from day 1 of the campaign. At least for TG and EF. And they have increased communication about what the difference between split/single is in the EF campaign with e-mail notifications. Split shipping is a good thing, and not the issue here. I don't follow Nemesis news but I thought the lower cost through retail was for just the core without expansions. One thing AR does great is give you a fantastic value at the core box+SG level.
@@nijaydaeva right, but I didn't buy any of the expansions so I just ended up waiting way longer than I needed to get a copy of the game. I learned though and going forward I don't Kickstart their games unless I'm going all in and are also willing to pay a ton for shipping.
I really don't see the problem. I've backed the big 190 dollar pledge, and I'm gonna do the following: NOT pay extra for 2 shipments. Read reviews of the main game when it hits retail. It can either be: A: the game isn't that spectacular - I'll just wait for my 2nd wave shipment of everything (I have like 10-20 games coming over the next couple of months anyway, that I want to play). B: everyone says the game is so amazing I just have to get it when it hits retail - I buy an extra copy of the core game and play that with my friends. THEN! 2nd wave arrives. A: If me and my friends are super hyped about playing all the expansions at that point, we'll do it, and one of my friends will then probably want to buy the core game off of me, so I only have to bring an expansion, when we meet up. B: me and my friends aren't hyped enough to play the game 5-6 more times with all the different expansions - so I don't open them and sell them to a fan who missed the KS, and really want the whole deal. So either I get a great experience and sell a core game onto my friend when 2nd wave hits, or I sell the whole thing to a collector eager to get it. I missed the Nemesis KS myself, and I'd gladly pay plus 50% of the price AND shipping if someone wanted to sell all of the stretch goals unopened. Again - I really don't see the problem.
@@FortPlz again - I don't see it being a terrible way they treat their customers. Cancel your pledge, love the games when you get them, or sell them and earn 2-5 times of what you paid for the KS in the first place. Don't really see any reason to be pissed at CMON.
@@SomeVato84 If we accept CMON treating backers badly then we have to accept all companies treating people this way. It is just not what direction I want the board game hobby to go. I am voting with my wallet and will not back any more CMON games before they grow up. Other companies like stonemeier, chip theory and Awaken Realms at least treats backers with respect.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
BTW, props to you dude for having the balls to anger nerdy fanboys with big wallets by saying shit like it really is. Keep it up bro!
Someone has to! I'm fully prepared for the Corporate Defenders to come out and tell me how CMON is great and this was all just a train of oopsies on CMON's part.
@@TheKingofAverage Someone did already. A LOT. For the past eight years.
It is like you never visit Board Game Geek.
@@TheKingofAverage
CMON is great and this was all just a train of oopsies on CMON's part!!
I wish Lang would find a decent company to produce his games.
Same here! I'm sad he went to the dark side :(
totally agree. I love Lang and his games so much, but CMon makes me not want to buy them because I don't want to support their crap.
CMON seems like a style over substance company. Good mini's, average mechanics. Ankh seems to be trying to be a short game with lame catch up mechanics. CMON needs Ankh to keep their pirate ship afloat, start bailing out now!
@@chasethecat2399 LOL! Incidently, they also tend to make a few GREAT games as well every so often. I think the only game I've gotten from them that I actually kind of dislike is Rising Sun.
It's not so much that they are bad, but they are very mass marketed and it very often shows. It's like before they even go to the designers they have some focus tests and check a bunch of boxes and then go to the designers and say: make me a game that is this theme and does these things.
Obviously half the time it'll be neat, bot nut overly so. Other times they might actually hit a home run instead of bunting haha
CMON is the EA of board games!
My thought, too
Asmodee is right there with them these days.
What about Asmodee? They seem pretty EA to me.
Truth!
True...
Backers should always get their stuff first.
I`ve tryed to argue this with someFB groups - ppl are stupid I tell you, thinkin its ok that the retails get the games first!
Absolutely, as backers, we should get the privilege to be first...at least we get our friends who didn’t get involved
Sean Dooley ... it didn’t say or specify that the game would be available before the KS delivery, do believe that should’ve been made aware to us, then let’s us make our decision to opt into KS exclusives?
Always. ALWAYS. You *ALWAYS* give preferential treatment to the people who supported you.
Otherwise, as certain companies have found, those supporters take away their support...
@Sean Dooley I'm not a massive fan of exclusives. I personally believe a Kickstarter campaign should be there to print the complete game for companies who are just starting up and could not normally afford the expense.
I think maybe they should get a limited edition box or something like that.
But sadly Kickstarter doesn't work the way I would want it to.
Thanks for standing up. They need to blasted for this. I would LOVE for everyone to cancel their pledge.
It's time for CMON to stop using kickstarter
Agreed, they made enough money to not need the aid.
Cmon lives off FOMO. It is their business model. They would not be as big without Kickstarts.
@@MRiJUSTcantREMEMBER Agreed. I'm on the hook for 2 of their Kickstarters at the moment.
Why?
They should they abandon the audience they've built on Kickstarter?
@@drewolds721 They wouldn't owe KS royalties anymore for one and I think they are established enough to keep making and selling games.
I remember during the Green Horde KS they made a “surprise” announcement in update 54, where they did a two-wave shipment, but did not charge for it. Now, they want extra money.
How the mighty have fallen...
I requested a refund right after they admitted about having the game in retail.
Good for you!
@7:08 and the following seconds: What's that sound? Someone trying to break through your ceiling? The CMON PR guy who wants to get out of that trunk?
Great video btw :D
LOL! A literal gag order!
Nah just one of my kids being loud when they shouldn't :) In a normal video I could re-record and edit out, but I was kind of "in the moment" so excuse the slightly less quality audio portion :)
I canceled mine. As soon as I saw the retail was Aug this year I was like wait what. We must get ours around June or July. I was wrong. This game was coming out no matter if the Kickstarter failed or not. They just wanted more money up front first.
You got it exactly right.
KS has now gone full DLC.
As a backer of this campaign, I didn’t really care until you brought up brick and motor stores. That’s a great point and with the economy slowing, man it would have been nice to offer the retail version through local game stores and only KS exclusives during this campaign. That’s a solid point and I hope some company does that in the future. Keep up the good fight
We need more of this. You’re like the Angry Joe of board games.
Haha thanks! I'll take that over Jim Stirling :D
The King of Average The ‘AAA’ board game industry...
Just found your channel, as i am new to games. Backed this game as well and now i feel dirty supporting them :-D Still in love with the game idea and the minis, but you are right! Thanks for the honesty - i will now rewatch all your videos :-P
Heya Oldboy and welcome!
Don't feel so bad about backing it :) We're all consumers and have to deal with what we have available to us. As I said in the video myself, I hate it because while I dislike how they treat consumers often, there are times where they do a lot of good as well and I very much enjoy a lot of their games! In fact for the last two years one of their games has gotten my Game of the Year award!
Whilst I backed the game and don't regret that decision at all I honestly have to agree with every point raised here. Some very shady practices being put in place and CMON have made it clear that they don't value their backers on any kind of personal level any more. At this point we're just pre-order money and check marks in boxes.
On a separate note I was lucky enough to get into the PM before it closed and although I can't remember exactly Im fairly certain shipping prices were reasonable and inline with what I've seen other games ship at lately. Certainly I wasn't shocked by them at least so they couldn't of been that bad!
Regardless I wanna say thank you for your content while I'm here. Always look forward to your videos and I love the no nonsense, tell it as it is approach that you take. It's exactly what's needed in the community and you're viewers appreciate you for it. Awesome job, keep doing what your doing!
TwistedThistle I second this as well. To a tee.
We are not pre-order-money because we get the games later every time. We are free credit they can forget. And fun think Retailer Pledges with all the "exlusives" Stuff are normaly shipet with the Retail Copy. This going on now for at least a year.
@TwistedThistle I also made it into the Pledge Manager and completed my 2 wave shipping prior to them shutting it down, but I also received a message stating the amount I paid for shipping was too low and I would have to go back in and up my payment to make up for the difference! Haven't decided what I'm going to do yet, but we shall see tomorrow. If the 2 wave shipping is astronomical then I will simply have Visa get my money back for me if CMON will refuse me a refund.
Thanks Twisted I really appreciate it, and good info for sure! What I really feel for is the $1 backers that didn't have a chance to add all their products and see what shipping should be around. This really screwed them over more than most I think, especially if they were $1 backers as money is a bit tighter.
Spot on my friend! I've been done with CMON for a while now. I know I'm missing out on some really good games, but I won't put a dime in these d-bags pockets. Hopefully more people see the light. Thanks again for looking out!
And let's not pretend you still don't have some great games to play ;)
If the game is going to retail then I love your suggestion of having a "everything but the core game" option. Kind of a no-brainer honestly. That way CMON keeps distributors happy, we get to support local game stores by buying the core game, and we get all the other goodies through kickstarter.
I just wish that cmon would have a Kickstarter that was just 1000 minis designed for d&d with no game attached
That’s what Reaper Bones is for :)
Massive Darkness came pretty close :D
Massive darkness
I own massive darkness. I meant that they literally just look at the monster manual and players handbook and make models that are direct rip offs of every single creature/race in many poses/loadouts and sell it. Like 3000 miniatures for an all in of 1000 dollars and no game
The Marvel KS is just as much a douchery action as they've been hammer the Time Machine backers (product they have in warehouse) and they still havn't managed to ship. I was not always a slavering CMON fan to begin with but I backed Bloodborn and Trudvang cause I loved the themes. Time Machine came along and I thought hey I can pick up Rising Sun since it was before I started doing anything KS. Everything I've seen across the board on thier KSs just shows how bad their customer service, support and actually caring about customers is. I've said it before and you showed some great breakdowns of CMONs retail vs KS funds, if we the consumers really want to express our displeasure, stop giving them our KS dollars. Watch how quick an impact that will have when it affects their bottom line and all those insta-dollars to pad things dries up. End my rant, kudos for you speaking some truth for their business practices. Peace
Cthulhu: Death May Die or Zombiecide Invaders anyone. Retaill Versions weeks earlyer then backers and Retail Pledges with all the "Kickstarter Exlusives" to! And after shiping to Europe the All in Version in Shops was even cheaper.
I loathe CMON. I'm not a fan of their business practices. Monolith isn't far off too.
Certifiable Studios, Dice Throne and Greenbrier have my respect. You know exactly what you're getting into.
Greenbrier???😂
Can’t agree about Greenbriar due to “Dragon Tides” they sold my pledge to get their money back rather than litigation, nice not. So they wouldn’t get my p***s if on fire!
I haven't had any problems with Greenbrier... But always 2 sides. Sorry you guys have 😥
Actually can I put Golden Bell on the top of the list?? 😆
Excellent rant Michael! CMON have burned through their very last goodwill for me on the Time Machine campaign. I have supported nothing by them since.
I love your idea for the option of just backing for the stretch goals and Kickstarter exclusives. That would be astonishingly consumer friendly 👍
Well said - but don't just point the finger at CMON. Kickstarter make all this possible. Kickstarter need companies like CMON to guarantee a nice fat income stream - that's why they'll probably never lift a finger to help/protect consumers.
I yelled at KS last time. It was CMON's turn this time :D
i requested a refund. I am sick of the KSE FOMO figures. I only backed for the core and spiderman. But retail coming out right around the corner and no gameplay video. Ok Done. Time to stop giving my money for bad behavior.
There is a reason I only ever back $1 for CMON Kickstarters and wait for the Pledge Manager.
So you can wait until after your refund period to get stuff? :D
(I get what you mean) :)
Not in this case cause I didnt back it. However based on the past, the only CMON KS I did end up backing was Hate and that was cause it was a KSE. All others I opted to buy retail. Often pre-ordering KS versions cheaper than if I had backed.
Appreciate someone standing up to these companies.I have a ton of cmon games I have backed and I'm disappointed in what they did here. I think its a mistep and hopefully they learn from this. Man vs Meeple also called them out in a tweet.
Hopefully learn from, but I doubt it :( Happy to hear MvM called them out, though after looking at it the tweet is a super softball call out, but better than nothing! :D
They deserved this rant.
This is a funny video. Contradicting your previous videos. Your anger and frustration is common. I think the way UA-camrs who label their videos to get clicks and controversy stirred up are being manipulative, but do you think UA-cam is going to stop the click bait tactics? Nope. We all have our ways of getting what we want, and it is usually at the expense of others.
Hah! What's contradicting about this? I've been singing this tune for quite some time very openly so confused what you think would be contradicting?
As for clickbait, I hope you aren't referring to my video. If I wanted clickbait I'd have put something about Coronavirus in the title for easy clicks. No one is baited here. The subject of the video is exactly in the title and within the first few seconds I tell you as such.
LOL not if that's what the video is about. You might be confused between two words: "bait" and "enticing" - every single custom made thumbnail and written title is made to be enticing, on every channel. Otherwise we'd just have the video ID from the camera as the title and the thumbnail would be blank white.
Bait, is something that looks enticing, but is a lie. It's the hook made to look like a nice meal. You often see this with junk like "10 Amazing facts on how to cure AIDS! Number 3 will surprise you!"
My video describes exactly what I'm talking about. There's no bait and switch and I don't beat around the bush about it either. You read my title, you know exactly what the video is about.
The King of Average. CMON is EVIL. CAPS. You are baiting people. That’s what your title does. If you are blind to that, okay, your channel your rules. You have a grudge against CMON, okay. However, contradictory to your previous video, CMON does, more than not, meet all three of your criteria for running a good Kickstarter. That’s contradicting. Just because they burn some people on shipping dates, that is unfortunate. But the amount of stuff we get for the price is on par. I agree that CMON has abused Kickstarter as a preorder platform, and not so much a kick start system, but it’s not illegal. How about we just look at CMON as a company that is selling retail product using KS as an advert platform. That should fix your assumption that we are “backers”. I get it. I feel your frustration. I have been there, but let yourself be free of consumer supply and demand assumptions with KS. I know it doesn’t feel good, but...you belittle Marvel United without ever playing the game, you did the same for Return to Dark Tower in your previous videos. Again, your channel, your rules, but listen. It’s just petty. Use that energy to do what you love. This is like watching a movie star who has become famous start chiming in on politics. I just want to watch them in movies. That’s what they do best. You have great talent being wasted on berating CMON and the business side of our hobby. You begin to cater your channel to people who enjoy negatives and if that is what you want, then, again, your channel. Build the audience you want. CMON Kickstarters provide 1. Exclusive content. 2. Cheaper (than retail). 3. Sooner (most of the time). CMON is not Evil, they are a company. You’re describing EVERY for-profit company.
I am wondering ... was Zombicide the first large KS board game project or was there something else that started this trend of board game kickstarters? And how was CMON back then? I know your schedule is full, but it could be interesting concept about history and beginnings of the Kickstrarter board games and indie companies.
@KIngOfAverage I absolutely LOVE your idea of offering a 'KS only' pledge where the consumer buys the core game at FLGS. This campaign had 37 exclusive minis and 2 exclusive expansions at the all-in pledge. I am sure many backed because of this. Getting KS exclusives on the secondary market can often be frustrating and or expensive. I prefer to look on BGG for my CMON KS games; eventually someone sells their game (often NIS) at a discount. It is true I might have to wait 5 years to play the game, but I've got more than I can play right now, and it will still be new to me in 5 years. *chuckles*
I totally agree. CMON has gone from bad to worse through the years. Its sad. One day, this crap will bite them back in the butt. It wont be today, or tomorrow............ but one day.
I'll be there the day it does though :)
What's the name of the Marvel miniature game you mentioned?
For a great card game: Marvel Champions. For a great miniatures game: Marvel Crisis Protocol.
Marvel: Crisis Protocol
Thanks you both :)
Unfortunately I doubt CMON will ever change their business practice and keep abusing Kickstarter because it makes them the most profit. I stopped backing their games because I quickly grew to dislike the way they run their kickstarters. But as you mentioned, unfortunately, they do make some good games and they also buy out a lot of licenses and then toss them back up on Kickstarter. Bloodborne was real hard for me to pass on but I did, and I’m sure I’ll have the same issue when they reveal their cyberpunk game.
Totally agree. I hate their business model.
Stretch goal in ks mostly add new hero for replayability, 4p coop game with 40 hero (20 being ks exclusive), its just lazy, not replayability (while other company can make a whole new expansion with that). Another one is they put a little of ks exclusive extra in every add on they sell in the ks (people with fomo will either all in or dont buy at all). Not to mention they can release 4-8 add on in a single project,clearly they already plan it before and have no need of ks. And another thing is they keep milking the same mechanic over and over again like zombicide 8 seasons total (just make a new theme and some new mechanic). I swear ankh will be my last game from them (too bad im a fans of eric lang since chaos in the old world).
thought the horrible support from CMON was just in the time machine. glad you stood up to them.
It's been long running off and on. Were you around for the "it'll take us too long to make the giant Cthulhu so we're going to hyper limit how many can get it each month and raise the price because reasons" only to then make all of them months ahead of time? That's a classic! :D
I wouldn't say I hate CMON but I have literally experienced some of the stuff you were talking about. I was so completely pissed at the lack of communication during the Blood Rage Digital (Physical Pledge) where I almost swore off CMON all together. The issue is, they do make great games.
CMoN always sells their games at retail before they fulfill Kickstarters. Arcadia Quest Riders was in stores 6 months before backers got it. AQ Inferno was about a month, Starcadia is in stores now and still most backers don't have it. Not to mention that Retail usually charges less for the games than the Kickstarter, and shipping on top of that.
I totally agree with you about being able to buy the exclusives. That would be a huge improvement. Or even get rid of exclusives all together.
Don't even get me started on the train wreck that was the Time Machine campaign.
You offer more realness than most of these companies and I have nothing but respect for it!
Thanks Kidtendo! :) Happy to hear it's appreciated.
They broke my heart when a lot of Zombicide Green Horde heroes were Kickstarter exclusive :/
Also the prices of their board games got more expensive than when they released years ago
Love your channel. Please keep being honest.
Will do! Glad you liked it :)
@@TheKingofAverage You should consider changing the name to The King of Honesty ;)
Well, was going to consider CMON's next game taking place in Ancient Egypt. This video has made me reconsider that choice. God damn it CMON.
Trudvang Legends might just be the last game I get from these guys. This is such BS.
Yeah, no more CMON games for me.
Exactly this
I don't know. Is this such a big deal really at a certain perspective? It sucks that CMON at times has poor ethics, but is this specific situation really deal breaking? If you only want the core game then yes I can see that. But if you're in it for the exclusive extras then I don't see the big deal waiting a year to play the game which is usually the norm for waiting for a ks project.
_
Someone whose situation only applies to the core game doesn't effect my situation, but it is worth noting a corporation's scummy moves towards others. What will effect everyone overall is when these disgruntled backers don't return for future projects to help out on stretch goals, and rightly so if a company continues building a bad reputation for itself.
Ahhh man. I backed this and have been waivering as to if I should cancel or not, and after watching this, I think I am cancelling. Granted I have seen you opinions on this in previous videos but I still was sticking with backing it... but not now.
I'm glad you'd mentioned this though, as I did know I had to pay more for wave two, but I did not know the refunds end before the pledge manager will re open!
I wanted to like this and get it for sure, but like your points, the price and business practices just weigh out to be too much for me to support.
Thanks again!
This is just my second KS and am extremely disappointed by how this was handled. I asked for a refund.
Good for you! You'll be able to enjoy the core game sooner and cheaper and without giving CMON money so that's a triple win :)
@@TheKingofAverage now I can instead pledge for Frosthaven 😆
I got my Death May Die 3 months later than they said it was all shipped out, with the worst customers service to explain why they said they delivered everything and mine was not... I love a lot of CMON games, but I cannot buy from a company that treat customers so badly.
Doesn't Asmodee now distribute CMON to retail? This might be the cause of this.
milkrobotics Yes. They’re the reason people keep giving for why the Song of Ice and Fire retail stuff is always months late to the stores.
ewww gross Asmodee.
Totally agree with your point of view. They are really forcing people to cancel their pledge and then late pledge to check shipping costs. I haven’t backed anything since blood borne from them and happy with my decision. Mythic Games and Awaken Realms are so much more customer focused and they will see my wallet more than CMON in the future!
Heard a rumour about this, pulled out of this particular cmon game a day before, did feel something was wrong. Such a shame, know all the KS exclusives will be on eBay at ridiculous inflated prices...oh well
Eh, just wait for their next time machine :D
The King of Average ... just so crappy....we have to pledge, sure us real gamers want a new game..,an of the shelf game...1 of my favourite games is Arkham lcg, I don’t need miniatures to play, just a friend/or not...My point is...with all the miniatures from KS. are you actually gonna use them/paint them... or just to try sell them for profit
The best defense for this every time the "kickstarter exclusives". The joke is retail pledges with all the "exclusives" wher shiped to shops with the retail Version weeks earlyer on Cuthulhu: Death May Die and Zombiecide Invaders.
Well said sir. CMON have been taking the piss for quite a while now. They have turned into the most predatory games company on kickstarter with the most manipulative practices paired with the least respect for their customers. And yes, it's a damn shame as many of their games are great, but it's getting harder to justify giving them money.
Nice one on calling them out.
Always appreciate the critical feedback, I'm new to the kickstarter scene and videos like this are super helpful for people who might not be aware of a company's duplicitous practices. It's going to be a great week because I'm isolated at home and have my painting station next to my work desk.
Happy to help :) it's not all doom and gloom of course - enjoy your painting! :)
6:48 that picture is so well chosen 😂
And you’re totally right, they are getting too big so now they became greedy cause they can
Haha thanks! I was cracking up while putting the images in the video :D
Well said. I'm done with CMON since the Blood Rage Digital game was just another ruse to sell more minis with the digital reward being a weak afterthought.
Don't care when I receive the game. When I backed a game, I looked at the delivery schedule, the cost, and what I got back, if I think it is good, I back it. There is no point to compare whether others will get the stuff before you do. If you want to compare unfairness in life, why don't you compare why some people works so little hours and get more pay then you do.
Alvin Lo if you're happy to get it after everyone else and pay more for it (in shipping), be my guest.
@@ZebraCatfish73 yup, i don't mind getting later, too many game and too little time. With all the exclusive even with the base core pledge, even with shipping, i would not say I pay more.
During the KS, they told you how much it cost and what and when they will delivery, that is the only relevant information I need to make a purchase decision.
The bottom line is CMON is being sneaky about how they do busy and The King of Average called them on it. But if you think they practice good business then happy days for you. Enjoy their games. I do. I just wish they'd look after and show the backers some respect. Happy gaming!
You just need to turn their logo 45° and find out their real name:
CM
ON
becomes
M (am)
CON
HAH! :D
Good video. I hadn't paid much attention to the updates and didnt know all this was going on. Shame on them.
right? Who does this kind of crap? -_-
You're pretty much spot-on, sadly. CMoN has turned out some great games, and I tend to find most of the hate toward them to be overblown sour grapes, but I don't see how anybody can defend this behavior. They need to be thoroughly called out (and probably take a hit in the pocketbook, as well), or they'll only get worse.
I did'nt back it coz it's too pricey for me, but I'm sad to the backers
I hope this wont happen on Ankh....But I'm afraid to back the next CMON project because of this.
Wow, i backed the game 1$ at the last second since i didnt have time to think about it right then and was waiting for the pledge manager to have a better look at it...they make good games, but this...this is master level douchebagerry.
Thank you for the curated warning. I don't follow kickstarters the way i used to, so it's nice that i can rely on your news when something gets my interrest, but dont have time to be a warned consumer
Keep up on your good reactivity. If you waited a scheduled weekly content to talk about it, it would have been too late for many. I truly applaud your personal investment in this
We stopped dealing with CMON, after being screwed over on our 7 Sins pledge due to their mistake - so we vowed to stop dealing with them forevermore.
I see that they've upped their bad service standards since then!
I have boycotted CMON as well. I dont like the way they do business.
Wow, great points. Thanks for bringing this out to the public!
You are very welcome, happy to do so though sad I needed to.
The King of Average Yes, sad indeed!
I'm just really happy this didn't happen with Bloodborne. I would've been furious, and I can only imagine how disappointed Marvel United backers are.
My best advice is: vote with your wallet, folks.
I backed it and couldn't care less. I backed it only for the KS exclusives, and I know the way they operate.
They don't the need my money to "bring a project to life", and I'm cool with that. Kickstarter is a store front now. The sooner people accept that, the happier they'll be.
@@derekgarcia3069 For big producers like CMON kickstarter is a store front, but not for the little and medium guys. They need the support to make their games come to life.
I like your channel , it’s nice to have a reviewer call out bull shit and give bad reviews ! All these other channels give these half ass reviews and soft cookie cutter reviews so they keep getting free copies !
I really agree with likening them to the EA of Board Games. Thanks for the video. I work in marketing and might be a bit jaded but I have seen what they have been doing for over a year now and just refuse to back any of their games. They do make great games and I hope they turn things around, but I doubt they will as long as they are profitable.
Oh and even if everyone refunds through KS for MU, it won't matter because they have already said how much more money they make through retail than KS in earnings calls etc...
Meh....I'm not here to justify it, I just don't care enough. I love their KS products, I love the extras and exclusives. The fact that someone else gets the retail, not KS, version first...not something I'm losing sleep over. Is it true that they play these games? Yes. But what's the real loss here? Do I enjoy my game any less because someone else had an inferior version of it first? Not really....so no hoop jumping here, I just don't care about this stuff. I'd rather a good game with the corporate BS then a mediocre game from a great company.
Love your channel btw, so take my disagreement with a healthy grain of salt :)
well said. plus most of the time you get a good invest of your money with them.
Dont worry it wont come out in March 2021. It will come out later because of Chinese new year
I'm actually still upset about time vault. I backed for a dollar, and ended up buying nothing from the time vault once I saw how they were price gouging, rather than offering the items for the same price as the original Kickstarters. They also launched it during the work day, rather than in the evening when people could be waiting at their computers
Two hypothesis... 1) Most backers back it and forget it (I am mostly like that), so most people simply just miss all these details and updates and by the time more info comes out, it is too late. 2) Again, totally my case here, I am literally backing it for the minis (because I like Chibi and I like to paint them), I could not care less for the game. I am literally looking at this as on a cost per mini basis... I will throw the game literally in the garbage when it arrives. But I think only a minority of people are like that... People are inattentive but also mostly emotionally stuck in the FOMO thing... They need to have all the extras and they wont mind all the crap.
More people need to see this. Great overview of what's going on.
Man of course they didn’t know that they will release the game to retail in august... how come you can be so bad to a company that make just couple of million on kickstarter?
Cmon is greedy like all this giant company that look only to an insane profit and during this campaign they show what they really are... so sad
Yeah there is no way they didn't know it would be sooner than May 2021.
The King of Average Eheheh... btw after this video you should ask for a preview box 😂😂👊
There are ppl like me who back for kickstarter exclusive stuff. In addition, my country do not have active boardgame retail store, so retail release date is never a factor. Even if some shop decided to buy it, the price is expensive as kickstarter price due to exchange rate. As long as they make good game, a lot of ppl will back it even if the service suck
The incentive to make more money is the only reason they are doing this.
Gamea Workshop did far, far worse things to their player base for years.
The solution with Cmon or any other company for that matter- don't back it.
Imho the main benefit from backing a KS should be getting extra content. Actual extra content.
This means more scenarios to play and more mechanics.
No , extra minis are not extra content. Not really.And this is coming from a guy that paints between 300 and 400 minis a year.
Since most KS do not offer actual extra content- do not back it.
The most important thing for a game is playability. Wait for the retail version, try it at a club- find the best deal and then buy it.
Great video. Subscribed
DO NOT! Paint minis when your hands are shaking!
This game is a joke to me, so I'd find this refund a chance to back out from very expensive game with minis that do not bring any play value to the game. But i guess if someone stood with it to the end of campain they were commited and it sucks that CMON is trying to bend them over and have fun at their expense. Overall I can argue with anything you said. Truth have been told.
Thanks for everything you're doing! Cheers!
Props for calling them out. As always right to the point without sugar coating. I agree with your statements completely
Happy to hear it. If we disagreed that'd be bad for our relationship :P
I only backed BB and got burnt due to exuberant shipping price, lost $13 during refund. BB was $138 shipping to India, Limbo charged $45 for that huge game.
Ok, so buy CMON games retail instead of kickstarter. Got it.
If you actually want to make a real stand, don't buy CMON games at all...
@@kalega311 well, that's not happening. Their games are too good.
What would happen if CMON had a KS and nobody pledged? I have no intention of pledging for Ankh because I have no idea what crap they will pull off next. Don't they also have a few undelivered KS as well?
Ankh will get funded in less than 10 mins
A few is an understatment.
Oh, look, board game companies are taking hints from video game companies on how to not just get people's money, but to get ALL of the money. One reason I started focusing more on board games instead of video games is because this kind of thing didn't happen. This is just lovely.
Right?! I'm actually a larger video gamer than board gamer, and it make me so sad to see what's happened to the video game industry.
luckily game didn't get me interested at all. that's completely unacceptable in my book and you backers need to push back now so that they don't do this again with ankh (and their next campaigns) - cause I can guarantee that that's gonna be an even bigger campaign
Great video and no argument here. If only there was some device to let me go back and not put an order in during the Time Machine pledge manager. It's locked as at is in the shipping phase, but with no way to tell when it will arrive.
I only recently started buying these types of games and already can't stand CMON. I'll try to steer clear once I get the rest of Rising Sun and Hate.
Luckily there are other companies who really seem to keep backers informed and maybe respect their customers like Dragori, Lazy Squire, and Diemension seem to.
Proof positive that Kickstarter projects, even with KS's kickback, do collect revenue for companies, and the bigger they are the more they collect. It's time to end the fallacy that projects do it just for the flex. Even actual new starters need to eat.
Yep totally agreed!
I want Ankh but this makes me worry.
I can’t defend backing any more CMON games. Bloodborne will be the last. Until they fix their behavior towards backers.
Also want Ankh and am interested in their upcoming digital board game system. I really like Companies like Chip Theory Games or Leder Games who have a clear communication and put customers first.
I don't always back CMON, but I do often enough to say a few things.
One, they f'ed up with the shipping. That should have been said Day 1 just to avoid drama. Doesn't matter who else does this, they usually are up front about it. Maybe people don't like it, but they have the information to make that call for themselves.
Two, I think shipping is going up and as long as they give accurate quotes, people have to deal with it. You yourself have said that shipping is just going to be more expensive, lots of people going to have to get used to a new reality. Still sucks to be lied to, so CMON needs to give good quotes.
Three, and again I agree with you, a project should offer Exclusivity, Early Access, Cheaper Prices, or Decked Out. Hopefully all 4, but if not, as much as you can. For me, I think CMON did 2 or 3 out of 4, depending on how retail shakes out. Online retailers will have the base game cheaper, for sure, but not sure how the expansions will go. CMON is weird in that their retail presence is scattershot, so getting even MSRP stuff is hard.
Still a necessary video, if only to get people informed. Click baity headline, but hell, it's UA-cam, you gotta make it work :)
Yeah totally agree, I've actually started including a assumed $30+ shipping cost into every pledge level for myself. So when I saw $60 base pledge for MU I view it as a $90+ base pledge. I wish they'd all at least add their completely wrong estimates into the pledge imagery.
CMON is weird. For every campaign like Bloodborne where they actually hold backer votes and give tons of gameplay specific updates there's one like this. I swear different teams do different KS's lol
As for click baity, I am making a pretty drastic statement that (ideally) I back up well, but the video title is EXACTLY what the video is about and I don't beat around the bush to get to my point either :)
Now if I put out a video saying "10 things that make CMON evil - #3 will surprise you!" and then the video is just a big ad for my Patreon, please do call me out on it :D
Yeah it's enticing, but I never want to confuse you guys with my titles. Ideally you never go into my videos wondering "what is this really about?" :)
I totally agree with you, to be clear :)
I think we just have different ideas of 'evil.' Like, a are they as bad as fake medicine factories or baby powder manufacturers who put poison in the milk? Here in China, both happened and are on a scale apart from 'normal' (ugh) misinformation/deception.
That sad, I'd take no issue if it were just CMON Sucks... and here's Why!... or something :)
All that said, no issue with taking corps to task :)
Fun fact: I recently watched a gdc panel from 2017 with eric lang where he said (paraphrased): "CMON is slowly abandoning kickstarter"
Funny joke
They were at the time. But then your LGS didn't sell the games they made outside of Kickstarter, and they reported a sizeable loss for the year.
So now they're back to Kickstarter.
Where is the “Stramforged Games is Evil!” video? They pulled the split shipping to get the game before retail move, 6 months after the game was already late. Or you could have spent more money on add-ons. Game was on Amazon in October and I might get my game in July.
People don't buy CMON games to play them. People buy CMON games because they give into hoarding. My shelves full of shrink-wrapped Kickstarter exclusives is right next to my three year supply of toilet paper.
it's simple if you dont like them, dont do theyr kickstarter...
I didn't! But that didn't stop 22,000 others from backing it ;)
The video was never about whether or not CMON are a likable company. It's about calling them out specifically with THIS KS and how they went about it and treated the backers.
It's shameful what CMON has done and needed to be put in the spotlight for everyone to see. Great Video King of Average! 👍
Well.. i do agree with you. I actually dropped everything that has a CMON logo on, i dont like their KS sites and i think they are to expensive. They often make KS like this. Get a core game and give us all your money, then they add a lot of extras to squeeze the rest of peoples dimes. Even though et feels like those extras should be part of the core games...
Oh yes they are pros on starting out with a price 1/4th of what the final all-in price will be :D
Omg.... love the rant. If this is all true its total crap and I applaud you. Thanks for the video. Hope cmon makes a change. I bet they are banking on people not noticing.
right on dude! Telling it how it is. I avoided this release like the plague and tried dissuading as many other gamers as possible during the campaign coz its just FOMO bull and there no real game behind the mechanics.
I wish CMON didn’t make good games as thats the only redeeming reason people take this crap. Between CMON and Asmodee the board game landscape is going the same way as console gaming: Big companies making big profits and no regard for the community or even decent moral ethics.
we need people like you to keep exposure of this stuff out there, the message will get through eventually 🤞🤞
Wow. I didn't back this one because it did seem super expensive to me for what it was. Plus a bit of KS burnout of games that don't feel different and I'm trying to limit myself to games that really grab me. Everything you said hits home with me, but MAN it seemed so whiny. Maybe it's because this is like the third video in a row you have done or something that has complained about this particular game/situation. At least somebody is calling them out. Thanks for all you do and your unapologetic approach to reviews and previews.
Eh it might just be my voice :D
CMON being evil isn't new news. The problem like you mentioned is that they make good games despite this. That's why people still continue to back them. People are very vocal in social media and on their Kickstarters about their BS. Won't stop them from doing that they're doing wrong.
OK, so - most of the time, I hate the people that say large companies shouldn't use Kickstarter - I'd rather give my money to the people that make the game than any retailer, and I prefer companies to use Kickstarter because if they know a title will sell a lot of copies, they can upgrade the components.
The Rising Sun kickstarter edition is beautiful.
BUT - I do agree with KoA that CMON should have been more straightforward with backers that the retail would be available so much sooner, and I agree that freezing the pledge manager until after the refund deadline should be forbidden.
Totally agreed. Totally fine with CMON using KS, but this is se grade A manipulation
Yup... totally agree. Great games, horrible company policies. It's painful to admit it sometimes. Last night I had a fantastic 5 player game of Cthulhu:DMD, great game...
Not sure that CMON will notice if a few people cancel their pledge. As you said in an earlier video we are a niche of a niche.
But at least you got that out of your system and can enjoy your week with a clear mind.
I don't know how people can stand being treated like this by a company, I'm already pissed off when I see bs out of reach stretch goals in a campaign...
Hah yeah for sure. No way are those 22,000 people going to watch some nerdy YT video about a KS :D
Peace of mind indeed. I've done my part.
Never understood peoples outrage about retail getting their games first. It's not like retail gets the exact same product as KS backers as they wont get all the KSE exclusives. People act like businesses shouldn't make money. I know they're not your type of games, but do you think Sam Philips is evil too because after a couple of months when the game goes to retail, it's cheaper by about $20? I feel backers believe companies should just bend over for them because they backed on KS, which just isn't true. But yeah if this type of stuff makes you unhappy, just don't back the company.
Dude - how do you fell about Monolith and their newest Conan campaign? I rly fell like the game is small compared to the price, and the SG are even worse...
I think they actually did a great job. Very refreshing campaign.
@@marmank You dont think its a problem, both the game and SG are so small? Its 1 board compared to 4 boards in their 2015 game. Not even the 2 small flip pirateship boards where a SG. And they are not selling any addons (old ones) before after the end of the campaign.
@@unclemongrel-setsailforfai6147 The price for all of the stuff was fair. There were loads of new scenarios and a lot of ne minis for me. The ship boards are as big as one normal board together. There are only a limited number of add-ons, since they are only available from stock. They are now looking into doing a reprint and we all got a survey for that already. I also liked what they did with the SG's and adding stuff to the add-ons as SGs. But, we all like different things :)
@@marmank Hmm guess its just me then, not thinking its fair they throw a campaign giving you 50% less than the last one...
Now that I think of they kind pulled the same crap with the CMON Time Machine. I wonder how many people would have paid the $1 to buy into a lottery of known warehouse items with known quantities with the $15+ shipping charges tacked on. Yeah, it's only $1 but add that to the thousands of backers, it adds up to a nice little profit for CMON. So in the end it becomes a mass panic of FOMO where people who are kept in the dark, blindly throw money at them. While people choose to buy something or not, it's a bit underhanded and manipulative. BTW, I'm really liking what you are doing with this channel.
I just received my 1st CMON game today from Amazon. Cthulhu Death May Die. Got all the retail products. Unboxed it and quality was awesome. Looking forward to play it. Very disappointing what they did with Marvel. I was close to backing, glad I did not.
DmD is fun so hope you enjoy it! Like I said, some great games but terrible business practices
Awaken Realms does this same stuff...it's becoming the new practice for Kickstarters.
AR isn't doing this kind of stuff. Other stuff, sure, but not this stuff.
@@stephendavis7327 they do the two wave shipping. I didn't pay over $40 for my Nemesis pledge to ship and got my copy about a year and a half after it was out in retail. By the time I got it, you could buy Nemesis for half off the MSRP.
@@s3vn77 They do split shipping, but they have the costs on the campaign pages from day 1 of the campaign. At least for TG and EF. And they have increased communication about what the difference between split/single is in the EF campaign with e-mail notifications. Split shipping is a good thing, and not the issue here.
I don't follow Nemesis news but I thought the lower cost through retail was for just the core without expansions. One thing AR does great is give you a fantastic value at the core box+SG level.
@@nijaydaeva right, but I didn't buy any of the expansions so I just ended up waiting way longer than I needed to get a copy of the game. I learned though and going forward I don't Kickstart their games unless I'm going all in and are also willing to pay a ton for shipping.
I really don't see the problem. I've backed the big 190 dollar pledge, and I'm gonna do the following:
NOT pay extra for 2 shipments. Read reviews of the main game when it hits retail. It can either be:
A: the game isn't that spectacular - I'll just wait for my 2nd wave shipment of everything (I have like 10-20 games coming over the next couple of months anyway, that I want to play).
B: everyone says the game is so amazing I just have to get it when it hits retail - I buy an extra copy of the core game and play that with my friends.
THEN! 2nd wave arrives.
A: If me and my friends are super hyped about playing all the expansions at that point, we'll do it, and one of my friends will then probably want to buy the core game off of me, so I only have to bring an expansion, when we meet up.
B: me and my friends aren't hyped enough to play the game 5-6 more times with all the different expansions - so I don't open them and sell them to a fan who missed the KS, and really want the whole deal.
So either I get a great experience and sell a core game onto my friend when 2nd wave hits, or I sell the whole thing to a collector eager to get it. I missed the Nemesis KS myself, and I'd gladly pay plus 50% of the price AND shipping if someone wanted to sell all of the stretch goals unopened.
Again - I really don't see the problem.
Yeah, just buy multiple copies of the game due to the terrible way they treat their customers. That'll show em!
@@FortPlz again - I don't see it being a terrible way they treat their customers. Cancel your pledge, love the games when you get them, or sell them and earn 2-5 times of what you paid for the KS in the first place. Don't really see any reason to be pissed at CMON.
@@SomeVato84 If we accept CMON treating backers badly then we have to accept all companies treating people this way. It is just not what direction I want the board game hobby to go. I am voting with my wallet and will not back any more CMON games before they grow up. Other companies like stonemeier, chip theory and Awaken Realms at least treats backers with respect.
You should inform Disney about this. Maybe they care about their customers and their reputation.
Perhaps, though I somehow doubt Disney cares too much unless it has to really save face.
more evil than Asmodee?
Woah woah let's not get carried away now :P