I dont know about bending valves, but I remember learning in high school that the c shape of the hands and fingers actually increases dexterity and accuracy, and has absolutely nothing to do with handling the instrument correctly. I remember my band director telling everyone to do it that way, regardless of the instrument you played, and that it should be a relatively universal hand shape
It does, the lack of lateral pressure also means that you're less likely to inadvertently move the instrument, compromising your embouchure. Your band director knew his stuff.
Yeah, this is technically true, but the thing is, it really doesn't matter. Moving valves quickly and accurately is probably the easiest part of playing the trumpet, and so there's little need to use special techniques in order to improve accuracy. Think about it. When's the last time you were playing brass and you found that the reason you couldn't get through a song was because your fingers couldn't move fast enough? That's just not a thing. Fingering is the easy part of playing trumpet. Articulation and embouchure are the hard part. That's why my trumpet teacher was able to play professionally as a jazz musician without using "proper" finger placement.
@@kosmologist Yeah but with the piano it's actually necessary. With the trumpet it's just not, because moving your fingers fast on the trumpet is super easy.
My teacher has a bell front euphonium made in 40-s. If you don't know what it is then Google and you'll see how its valves are positioned almost horisontally when held in playing position. Su under their own weight the pistons wear off the tubes. During its 70 years of wear and tear the poston casings have worn a bit oval. We measured it. They move just fine in playing position but when resting flat on your lap they are always sticky no matter what you do. What I'm saying is that it took 70 years to wear down the pistons of an instrument and the horn itself is in perfect playing condition. 70 years. So I think we will all be perfectly fine pushing our valves in what ever way we want until we die and we can pass the instrument forward to the next generation so they can start pushing the valves how they like.
TBH at my competitions if you're lined up and your valve sticks right before a performance I'll spit on it just to get me through it then I'll go and wipe/oil after
"Well lubricated for the players pleasure" Welp, I need some paper towels and a refill cause I just laughed so hard I spit a mouthful of pop all over my desk.
I haven't played a brass instrument since about 1995 but I agree that the technique is certainly not going to harm your instrument. A criticism that I think could be more fairly leveled is that it could hurt your own wrist and hand. The correct ergonomic position for almost any fine motor skill with the fingers is to have a curved finger. Ask any instrument teacher that uses any kind of fingering from wind to string to piano even percussion or computer typing or knitting... It doesn't even have to be an instrument. They'll tell you that flat fingers put more stress on the tendons in the wrist and hand and can more rapidly lead to tendonitis, carpel tunnel, or other repetitive stress injuries. Forget the horn, think of your hand.
@@FirstnameLastname-et3wd There's only really one way you can use the trigger on a trombone. That's only if you're holding the instrument correctly though.
Thomas Johnson it also kinda depends on how fast you're playing too, people say curve fingers and play on the tips cause it's faster but I only do that on special occasions. I play pretty flat fingered.
I've seen young players with short fingers having terrible trouble with valves sticking, primarily because they have cheap instruments and they don't operate the valves with a downwards pressure but a diagonal pressure which causes them to jam. An adult with experience would have no issues with the valves sticking on the same instrument, but put pressure on the valve at an angle and it gets tight until it's pulled up and comes square in the barrel again. The other issue as you say is the valves are hard, but the barrel is a soft material. If the valve has any lateral pressure then the hard metal valve is going to rub the sides of the case. It doesn't need any lateral movement to do this, the mere pressure is transferred onto the case from the valve. However, to do any discernable damage would take an awful lot of operations of the valve. When I was learning to play, valve oil was forbidden, the only thing you put near your insrument was water.
Trent Hamilton it's made of aluminum (most of them),valves, which if you kept making your fingers go flat on the valves it will start damaging the valves over time
TKR HEADSHOT My first concert (at least it's just for school) ever is later this month and because I'm SUPER SMART I decided to play trumpet with only piano and guitar under my belt.... I have very poor decision making skills
Trent Hamilton no way you responded to me! As a tenor trombonist I love this channel alot. Now I get to run around the house saying that I got a response from you.
Trent Hamilton I love your channel man. I have listened to your playing style and improved my own from things I've heard. I'm only 15 years old and I've been playing trombone since I was 12 but from what people have told me, I'm the best at it in my school. I guess it just comes naturally to me.
Something I used to find with my trumpet, was that if you pressed the valve down with too much sideways pressure, the valve would tend to stick down and be reluctant to rise back up. I had the opinion that it was squeezing against the film of moisture in the valve casing and, clinging to it, much like if you press your hand against a wet window pane.
Heck, if you can still play the instrument, I see no reason why the way you hold your valves should matter. Assuming it's at least a decent quality instrument.
A couple things to take into consideration, though. Please note that I am not criticizing how you play, and I am not criticizing the points you made in this video. I would also ask that you not criticize the points I bring up, and do some some research into what I am talking about (DCI) before you rebuttal. Deal? I have studied the playing techniques used by numerous drum and bugle corps, some of which are the top in the world. The players are capable of playing complex runs at very high tempos, and while part of it has to do with them practicing 14 hours a day for 3 months, another huge factor is their finger technique. You see, in the Open Class of Drum Corps International, the majority of performers are high school students who have never participated in DCI before. They initially struggle with playing the complex runs their shows call for, until their finger technique is "corrected". Simply by playing with their fingertips, they are able to play faster and with more precision. You may consider just blowing this off as a placebo effect, but then doesn't that still support my argument that it does improve it? Another example comes from the World Class (and former Open Class champions) drum corps "Oregon Crusaders". In their 2017 brass manual (linked here oregoncrusaders.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/OC17_BRASS_MANUAL.pdf), in the section titled "Finger Technique" it says: "When playing all musical passages, we recommend pressing the valves down with authority, while keeping a relaxed feel in the wrists and fingers. Do not lose control of the valve on the way back up. The fingers should be rounded and the tips should press the valve straight up and down. If a player pushes the valves on an angle, the valves will stick and make technical passages unplayable." This corps uses instruments made by System Blue, the manufacturer of the best (opinion) marching brass in the world. So even with high quality instruments, they understand that with moving parts in any machine, no matter how precise those fittings are, there are still problems. In the microscopic area between the valve and the casing, the oil typically resides. When pushing the valves down at at angle, it can cause the valve to scrape closer, if not on the casing, causing friction. While it could be seen as a small problem with little significance at an individual scale, for these groups with their 80-man hornline playing a triplet run at 220 bpm, it can be a huge problem in a matter of seconds. This applies to every drum corps, from smaller and less experienced groups such as the Guardians, to mid-range world class corps like Oregon Crusaders (System Blue) and Spirit of Atlanta (Adams), to top 12 corps like Phantom Regiment (Jupiter), to even the top 3 corps that are Carolina Crown (Yamaha), Blue Devils A (System Blue), and the Bluecoats (Yamaha). So what I think the most important thing to take away from this comment is that it does really depend on what sort of group you are playing with, and everyone's mileage varies. I personally saw a massive improvement in how I played when I switched my finger technique to playing with the fingertips. I can also apply a similar principle to trombone, with how I hold the slide. Some people when first learning are taught to hold it with all of your fingers, so that they are less likely to lose control and have it go flying. I later learned to hold it with just two fingers and my thumb, so that I would have a more relaxed grip so that I could play faster and with more precision. One of my friends played with just one finger and a thumb, but then after joining the top jazz ensemble at my state's best university for music, he learned to play with two fingers and a thumb, and he saw massive improvements. So maybe there is something to it all then? Maybe it won't break your instrument, but maybe it does actually improve your playing? But what do I know. The few examples of me playing that are on UA-cam are awful, so take everything I've said with a barrel of salt.
Hi Brenton, thanks for your comment. This video was mainly created to rebut people who have claimed that I'll "bend" my valves by using the wrong finger position. I agree with you that different finger positions have different levels of efficiency, and some finger arrangements enable faster playing, but that wasn't really the aim of this video. That being said, with brass playing there is always a level of individualism - finding out what technique works best for the individual.
Yes. I know myself to have a habit of fingering my valves like Trent does, whenever I am playing very lazily/casually. I notice that not only does it inhibit the dexterity of my fingers, but also makes it take a significant amount of effort in comparison to when I finger them "correctly". To Trent: I agree that, in no discernible way will the valves be damaged by playing like that, unless you bought an absolute nugget of a horn. But I do recall you mentioning that your fingers get tired quite quickly whenever you're playing on a valved instrument - the fingering technique may be something to consider. PS: My profile picture is NOT me.... I wish. (it's Louis Dowdeswell, in case you were curious)
okay I get this and all, but if my physiology doesn't allow me to comfortably play with curved fingers and fingertips only pressing the valves straight down, I can't play any kind of fast passage at any bpm AT ALL. (I'm not in a marching band but in wind/concert bands) The only problems I got was when I put 'too much finger' over the valve, then the valve would indeed slow down. But otherwise, no.
I understood this was more of a potential issue with bottom sprung valves common in British brass bands of yesteryear. However I was always told that using finger pads was to protect against carpal tunnel syndrome which could end your career as a professional.
Hey Trent, what is your take on dry vs. wet lipped playing? I am a trumpet player who has to play with pacific ocean lips or I feel like I can't control which partial I'm in. Is one way better or is it just personal preference?
Playing with flat fingers is often shamed a bit into in more professional studies, but rather because it avoids less presition, specifically for fast pieces or extracts. The common agreement is for arched fingers, naturally relaxed, arched hand and fingertips on the valves. My Conservatory's professor eveb suggest that this position follows the logistic of natural arched and relaxed hand placement on other instruments such the piano, violine, flute, cello, etc. It is simply agreed that a natural curve releases tention therefor providing relaxation and presition. Of course I have seen a good amount of players use flat fingers fine, yet I strongly believe on the straditional conservatory method. Relaxed hand placement.
I have my son push the valves with his finger tips to promote technique, he's only 8. If he were of a talent like Al Hirt, well, then that's a different story. To suppose that one would damage a valve by using the overlapping fingers is absurd. Most of the strong Jazz players do exactly that. Take a peek at Wynton Marsalis playing classical, uses the finger tips, then when he plays Jazz, he overlaps. Those who critique most likely cannot play worth crap.
I really appreciate this video because I've gotten a lot of crap for similar stuff and I just get mad because hey I'm playing all the right notes in the right rhythm so why does anyone care? I've had one of my instruments for 8 years and the only issue I've ever had is a stuck mouthpiece, and that was someone else's fault.
DCI uses a curved fingertip technique because they want everyone to be uniform and that makes it a bit easier to play technical runs, they don't do it because of bending a valve.
Not that I disagree, but Brass and Monel (the alloy used in most high end valves) are much softer metals than steel, titanium, etc, which would be the conventional "metal" metals. It is possible to bend solid brass of the thickness of a valve stem, with enough strength and focus. Is that going to happen with the 70 grams it takes to play a valve? no, and you're right. But several 10 million little presses will slowly make an impact. (not that anyone but the most professional would ever play their valve that much) Also, the whole valve is not one solid block. The monel (or stainless steel, if they're cheap) valve core is attached by some way to the brass stem. A good instrument will have the brass extend deep into the middle, with a strong mechanical connection. Cheap ones may make it shorter, or horrors, use an adhesive. If something fails, it would be this connection i suspect, not the stem itself. I do know of an instance (not personally) where the stem separated from the core entirely. And it is theoretically possible that it may have been caused by lateral pressure. Of course, it was the most cheapest of instruments.
I've been playing for 8 years as I want, brass or other metals like aluminum and copper won't bend with just the force that you put on them with your fingers, even if it is a repetitive and rapid task, they won't bend, not even a little.
It's not about bending the valve. It's about technique. You have more control and speed by placing the flat pads of your fingers (not the tips vertically, but horizontally) on the valves. Playing with the middle to lower parts of your fingers across the valves is only making your job harder. If you care to rant further, take it up with every trumpet player I've ever studied under...from my 6th grade band director through present day.
He's not a professional and seems to be able to play whatever piece he likes without problem, so I don't know what the problem is there. Technique is like embouchure: yes, there are certain Do-Nots, but otherwise everyone's technique is different and so long as every note and rhythm is playable and it doesn't cause the player harm, they're fine. Of course, not everyone sees it that way and some can even be my-way-or-the-highway kind of people (coughcoughegotisticaltrumpetplayerscough). In my days of dabbling with trumpets, cornets, and valve trombones, alongside playing Euphonium on a regular basis, it doesn't seem to matter how I press the valves down. So long as my fingers don't hit each other and the valves don't stick, I'm able to play whatever I need to. Most of the time the middle part of my finger, if not the knuckle nearest the fingernail, is what presses the valve down because my fingers are lengthy and it's uncomfortable or kinesthetically awkward to play any other way.
Musical Endeavors true. But it's still very poor form, and a bad habit. You may be able to play "good enough" for your purposes, but it does make the job harder than it needs to be, especially for more technical parts. You can certainly do it the wrong way and have it work, but once you start tonguing a run of 32nd notes, proper technique pays off!
Hi Trent you are right, keep a car well maintained, and it will run 500000 km with ease. Those pistons are a lot shorter than in an instrument and are always pressing sideways. And with the speed and times they go up and down you have to play more than 100 years continuously before they wear out And you are pressing right, your fingers will feel it when pressing the valve is slightly more difficult.
When I'm playing valves, I vary whether I play with my finger tips or the pads of my first digits, curling the fingers to varying degrees keeps my fingers from aching. Just like when I play my main instrument, slide trombone, the way I hold the instrument with my left hand isn't usually the way I was taught.
tl;dr: If you have a crap instrument with sloppy valves, you'll wear them out even faster by not babying them as much as possible. Otherwise, you're possibly sacrificing speed for comfort or vice versa with your preferred hand position.
I have a problem. The bell of my trombone - echoes only in Bb first and second octave. Something like a hall is heard. All solders are ok, no loose parts. When I put my hand on the logo, it stops echoing in Bb. The bell was bent and fixed from a repairman. Most probably this is the cause. My question is how can this mysterious problem be fixed ? Ivan Sofia, Bulgaria
@@CommodoreKulor Reed's are really the only thing that's a pain about the saxophone. Pads only need to be replaced every couple years unless they are out in the rain when you're marching or something like that. Thanks other thing that you have to do every once and a while is oil the keys, but again that's not very often. Honestly it's probably harder to take care of a sax. I don't think it's hard to take care of either of them
See while playing with flat fingers isn’t technically bad for the instrument, playing more on the fingertips will allow you to play faster and have better control, especially during more technically demanding excerpts
I would've thought if someone were to complain about your grip, it would be more for carpel tunnel or what have you. That seems to make more sense to me, still probably an unnecessary worry, though.
I do have to say after playing my Bach Stradivarious for nearly 20 years i did have to get my valves lapped becuase of using bad techniue with my fingering technique. It was only on the top part of the valves but yes it still happens. I take very good care of my trumpets but im not going to change if i have to pay my horn tech $40 every 20 years I say screw it play however makes you comfortable.
Finger tech is important. I gave myself a tendonitis by having flat fingers instead of curved ones when I started with the sax. Metal fatigue is not something I consider. I consider human flesh fatigue, and curved fingers reduce it. My instrument will wear out this way or another, even with perfect tech, I care much more about my tendons than anything. Note: I don't actually know you at all at this point this is the second video I've seen...I'm just making a general statement.
Whenever anyone says "this" is the one and only correct technique and "that" is wrong, you can find a professional at the highest level doing "that". As a child taking piano lessons with Mrs. Mahan, she chided me for holding my hands too flat and not arching my fingers enough. She even took a pin sometimes, believe it or not, and if I let my hands droop too low would stick me in the wrist. Some years later I noticed that Vladimir Horowitz held his hands EXACTLY as low as I did. Apparently, he did not have Mrs. Mahan as a teacher.
i have a question- if you dont press the instrument into your lips, is it okay to hook your pinky into the ring? my director always yells at me for it but i dont press into my face at all
Look, the answer to proper valving technique is simple. The finger should accommodate the motion of the valve key. On a rotary valve instrument, the motion of the valve key describes an arc as it is depressed. On a piston valve instrument, the motion of the valve key is straight up and down. So, fingering the rotary valve with flatly held fingers works out, as they will also describe an arc when depressing a valve key. But, with piston valves, the fingers should be curled up and over, so that the finger tip can strike straight down while depressing the valve key. Now, this is proper technique. It has nothing to do with valve speed, or valve wear, or anything else. It's just a question being proper. Like wearing gloves while driving, or using your silverware from the outside in as laid out, or tipping your hat to a lady. Please people, we must maintain minimum standards of deportment, lest we all devolve to savagery.
Honestly you are more likely to harm yourself than the instrument. Most of playing technique is for the musicians benefit and less for the instruments benefit. Playing technique is mostly to prevent a repetitive strain injury. Also whatever technique works best for you use it. A trumpet player is not supposed to puff out their cheeks while playing but did that stop Dizzy Gillespie?
Keeping your fingers curved has nothing to do with damaging the valve casing as this video suggests. Perhaps, people have said that to you but they would be wrong. It has to do with muscle structure the fact that flattening out your fingers puts tension in all the muscles in your hand, which slows you down. If you curve your fingers, your hands would be more relaxed, and you can play passages faster/in time.
I support your arbuments and i dont really care how you play. Just di what you feel like is best. I personally dont like the flat fingers beccause i dont have the same control over the Valves as with different grips. i fell very uncomfrortable when doing it that way and i have to say it sounds a lot worse. Now you could say that this is just my opinion, but many of my Friends share this and actually sound a lot worse than they actually could.
Your fingering is optimal daily compressivebecause your fingers have similiar the same length.(beware a bit short but not to much as thick)But you work more on embouschure then lingering the fingering.
The only reason why I press my valves straight up and down is to make it easier to press my valves down quickly for sixteenth-note runs. I honestly don't see physical damage as a reason to stop, I personally just see that it is easier to play passages with rapid fingering changes.
The only thing anyone should be concerned about as far as their finger position on the valve is that their fingers are comfortable and can quickly press the valves down. There's no one way that is correct for everyone because everybody's fingers are different.
If playing with flat fingers is bad, a vast herd of players are guilty. Is this science, or is it more like, do you curl your pinky when you drink tea?
I was told it is more for the player than the instrument. It is more natural for the hands, with the least amount of energy, to bend in the curled fashion pushing straight down on the valves. similar to how you play piano. just what I was taught
💯 treat your instrument with respect there’s been a lot of work put into building it! (The good ones!) The best instruments are built to last a lifetime + you only get what you pay for bit like a 🚗 car
The only way to have a maximum of control (and to be sure to put a full down force without lateral one) is the right way, it's just physics man... and maybe you need to play more years the same instrument in a real bad way (with lateral force) to see what happen! (oval casing and piston inegal used). Resistance show friction, friction is possible with any tolerance parts, and friction is detruction! So if trumpet have smaller pistons, it's more difficult to detect it, but it's there (premature using). Tradition are often the key for real science...
It's the same for the water key, if you push it in angle, you will see rapidely the effect (tolerance are just greater) and bend arm too, but it's the same logic. Asiatic culture are good to incorporate this in the movement, the way to make things with precision, minimum of force, etc... or individualistic a-culture is good for understand and search WHY we need to... but is bad for humility and discipline.
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"Well lubricated for the player's pleasure". With the wrong context, you could be in a Durex advertisement.
LOL
Annual without the "nu"
I depress my valves with a sledge hammer. what about it hater
Meme Lab I drop hot sticky loads on my valves
+Tubruh brother wtf
Lmfaoooo
Meme Lab that's called martelé isn't it? :)
Meme Lab kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
his accent and pronunciation makes this 100000000x better
Gabe M this will be a little bit of a raint
I love how he just completely roasts them with simple explaining, and does it so properly, for insults of course XD. Great rant love it XD
I know XD
I dont know about bending valves, but I remember learning in high school that the c shape of the hands and fingers actually increases dexterity and accuracy, and has absolutely nothing to do with handling the instrument correctly. I remember my band director telling everyone to do it that way, regardless of the instrument you played, and that it should be a relatively universal hand shape
It does, the lack of lateral pressure also means that you're less likely to inadvertently move the instrument, compromising your embouchure. Your band director knew his stuff.
Same with piano actually
Yeah, this is technically true, but the thing is, it really doesn't matter. Moving valves quickly and accurately is probably the easiest part of playing the trumpet, and so there's little need to use special techniques in order to improve accuracy. Think about it. When's the last time you were playing brass and you found that the reason you couldn't get through a song was because your fingers couldn't move fast enough? That's just not a thing. Fingering is the easy part of playing trumpet. Articulation and embouchure are the hard part. That's why my trumpet teacher was able to play professionally as a jazz musician without using "proper" finger placement.
@@kosmologist Yeah but with the piano it's actually necessary. With the trumpet it's just not, because moving your fingers fast on the trumpet is super easy.
My teacher has a bell front euphonium made in 40-s. If you don't know what it is then Google and you'll see how its valves are positioned almost horisontally when held in playing position. Su under their own weight the pistons wear off the tubes. During its 70 years of wear and tear the poston casings have worn a bit oval. We measured it. They move just fine in playing position but when resting flat on your lap they are always sticky no matter what you do. What I'm saying is that it took 70 years to wear down the pistons of an instrument and the horn itself is in perfect playing condition. 70 years. So I think we will all be perfectly fine pushing our valves in what ever way we want until we die and we can pass the instrument forward to the next generation so they can start pushing the valves how they like.
who the hell spits in their pistons? xD
Marching band trumpets when they're too lazy to walk all the way back to their case to get valve oil
VerticalWit People without valve oil
Oliver Sykes it's a bit disgusting, i 'd rather play with sticky pistons for a while.. wait.. are you the singer of bmth?
TBH at my competitions if you're lined up and your valve sticks right before a performance I'll spit on it just to get me through it then I'll go and wipe/oil after
+Josh Andrews marching tuba (non compensating)
"Well lubricated for the players pleasure"
Welp, I need some paper towels and a refill cause I just laughed so hard I spit a mouthful of pop all over my desk.
"For his pleasure, and for hers!"
Johnny Murgatroyd Its another word for soda
They had us in the first half, not gonna lie
"Spit isnt as lubricantable as oil is" ~Trent Hamilton, 2016
Vocab word of the week brought to you by Mr. Hammy
I used to use just spit. My trumpet teacher (The conductor of Ford's Dagenham brass band), always told me - "Never use oil".
Now I want carrot stick pistons! heh!
Common sense. Might be a rare thing these days...
Willem Kossen It really is. Education is at its prime, but young children simply don't care about their education anymore.
You are correct. Common sense is not common.
Phoenixspin I guess the term "common sense" is no longer valid.
What is sense
I haven't played a brass instrument since about 1995 but I agree that the technique is certainly not going to harm your instrument. A criticism that I think could be more fairly leveled is that it could hurt your own wrist and hand. The correct ergonomic position for almost any fine motor skill with the fingers is to have a curved finger. Ask any instrument teacher that uses any kind of fingering from wind to string to piano even percussion or computer typing or knitting... It doesn't even have to be an instrument. They'll tell you that flat fingers put more stress on the tendons in the wrist and hand and can more rapidly lead to tendonitis, carpel tunnel, or other repetitive stress injuries. Forget the horn, think of your hand.
Yes.
And this is why I play the trombone ;)
Eporeon this is why I play woodwind
Exactly
There's valve trombones tho...
@@FirstnameLastname-et3wd There's only really one way you can use the trigger on a trombone. That's only if you're holding the instrument correctly though.
I swear
Theen.
who cares
how you have your fingers on the valves it's how you feel comfortable
Thomas Johnson it also kinda depends on how fast you're playing too, people say curve fingers and play on the tips cause it's faster but I only do that on special occasions. I play pretty flat fingered.
Maybe your valves after playing a super long song with a lot of 16th notes. And your wallet after that.
I've seen young players with short fingers having terrible trouble with valves sticking, primarily because they have cheap instruments and they don't operate the valves with a downwards pressure but a diagonal pressure which causes them to jam. An adult with experience would have no issues with the valves sticking on the same instrument, but put pressure on the valve at an angle and it gets tight until it's pulled up and comes square in the barrel again.
The other issue as you say is the valves are hard, but the barrel is a soft material. If the valve has any lateral pressure then the hard metal valve is going to rub the sides of the case. It doesn't need any lateral movement to do this, the mere pressure is transferred onto the case from the valve. However, to do any discernable damage would take an awful lot of operations of the valve.
When I was learning to play, valve oil was forbidden, the only thing you put near your insrument was water.
you've obviously never heard of Uri Geller....there's a reason you never saw him playing the trumpet !
hahaha
I have heard of him, but I don't understand the connection.
Trent Hamilton he was known for supposedly bending spoons and stuff like that via telekinesis...so yeah...
Trent Hamilton it's made of aluminum (most of them),valves, which if you kept making your fingers go flat on the valves it will start damaging the valves over time
Derp Krazy no.... no... nooooo
today is my first band concert I'm a baritone I'm excited and nervous
.. we're happy for you?
TKR HEADSHOT I have one on the 7th and 8th don't panic at all just like in class 😃
TKR HEADSHOT haha same here! I also have a concert today, but I've been playing for 6 years...
TKR HEADSHOT it goes by in about ten seconds. After you're finished you'll be like oh that was pretty normal
TKR HEADSHOT My first concert (at least it's just for school) ever is later this month and because I'm SUPER SMART I decided to play trumpet with only piano and guitar under my belt....
I have very poor decision making skills
never heard of bending a valve until now I was just taught to curl my fingers to prevent carpal tunnel syndrome
I always laugh at the finger position nazis. I assume they once took lessons with Professor Snigglegruber, and he taught them the 'only' way to play.
his face in the thumbnail 😂
So harsh. I have to live with that face.
Trent Hamilton no way you responded to me! As a tenor trombonist I love this channel alot. Now I get to run around the house saying that I got a response from you.
No worries mate. Feel free to frolic. :)
Trent Hamilton I love your channel man. I have listened to your playing style and improved my own from things I've heard. I'm only 15 years old and I've been playing trombone since I was 12 but from what people have told me, I'm the best at it in my school. I guess it just comes naturally to me.
Sticks For Sale what grade you doing?
Something I used to find with my trumpet, was that if you pressed the valve down with too much sideways pressure, the valve would tend to stick down and be reluctant to rise back up. I had the opinion that it was squeezing against the film of moisture in the valve casing and, clinging to it, much like if you press your hand against a wet window pane.
Heck, if you can still play the instrument, I see no reason why the way you hold your valves should matter. Assuming it's at least a decent quality instrument.
You're using your fingers to play your instrument. Everyone knows you use your knees EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEH
A couple things to take into consideration, though. Please note that I am not criticizing how you play, and I am not criticizing the points you made in this video. I would also ask that you not criticize the points I bring up, and do some some research into what I am talking about (DCI) before you rebuttal. Deal?
I have studied the playing techniques used by numerous drum and bugle corps, some of which are the top in the world. The players are capable of playing complex runs at very high tempos, and while part of it has to do with them practicing 14 hours a day for 3 months, another huge factor is their finger technique. You see, in the Open Class of Drum Corps International, the majority of performers are high school students who have never participated in DCI before. They initially struggle with playing the complex runs their shows call for, until their finger technique is "corrected". Simply by playing with their fingertips, they are able to play faster and with more precision. You may consider just blowing this off as a placebo effect, but then doesn't that still support my argument that it does improve it?
Another example comes from the World Class (and former Open Class champions) drum corps "Oregon Crusaders". In their 2017 brass manual (linked here oregoncrusaders.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/OC17_BRASS_MANUAL.pdf), in the section titled "Finger Technique" it says:
"When playing all musical passages, we recommend pressing the valves down with authority,
while keeping a relaxed feel in the wrists and fingers. Do not lose control of the valve on the way
back up. The fingers should be rounded and the tips should press the valve straight up and down.
If a player pushes the valves on an angle, the valves will stick and make technical passages
unplayable."
This corps uses instruments made by System Blue, the manufacturer of the best (opinion) marching brass in the world. So even with high quality instruments, they understand that with moving parts in any machine, no matter how precise those fittings are, there are still problems. In the microscopic area between the valve and the casing, the oil typically resides. When pushing the valves down at at angle, it can cause the valve to scrape closer, if not on the casing, causing friction. While it could be seen as a small problem with little significance at an individual scale, for these groups with their 80-man hornline playing a triplet run at 220 bpm, it can be a huge problem in a matter of seconds. This applies to every drum corps, from smaller and less experienced groups such as the Guardians, to mid-range world class corps like Oregon Crusaders (System Blue) and Spirit of Atlanta (Adams), to top 12 corps like Phantom Regiment (Jupiter), to even the top 3 corps that are Carolina Crown (Yamaha), Blue Devils A (System Blue), and the Bluecoats (Yamaha).
So what I think the most important thing to take away from this comment is that it does really depend on what sort of group you are playing with, and everyone's mileage varies. I personally saw a massive improvement in how I played when I switched my finger technique to playing with the fingertips. I can also apply a similar principle to trombone, with how I hold the slide. Some people when first learning are taught to hold it with all of your fingers, so that they are less likely to lose control and have it go flying. I later learned to hold it with just two fingers and my thumb, so that I would have a more relaxed grip so that I could play faster and with more precision. One of my friends played with just one finger and a thumb, but then after joining the top jazz ensemble at my state's best university for music, he learned to play with two fingers and a thumb, and he saw massive improvements.
So maybe there is something to it all then? Maybe it won't break your instrument, but maybe it does actually improve your playing? But what do I know. The few examples of me playing that are on UA-cam are awful, so take everything I've said with a barrel of salt.
Hi Brenton, thanks for your comment. This video was mainly created to rebut people who have claimed that I'll "bend" my valves by using the wrong finger position. I agree with you that different finger positions have different levels of efficiency, and some finger arrangements enable faster playing, but that wasn't really the aim of this video. That being said, with brass playing there is always a level of individualism - finding out what technique works best for the individual.
Yes. I know myself to have a habit of fingering my valves like Trent does, whenever I am playing very lazily/casually. I notice that not only does it inhibit the dexterity of my fingers, but also makes it take a significant amount of effort in comparison to when I finger them "correctly".
To Trent:
I agree that, in no discernible way will the valves be damaged by playing like that, unless you bought an absolute nugget of a horn. But I do recall you mentioning that your fingers get tired quite quickly whenever you're playing on a valved instrument - the fingering technique may be something to consider.
PS: My profile picture is NOT me.... I wish. (it's Louis Dowdeswell, in case you were curious)
Maxwell Osborn I saw the Dowdeswell picture before I read your name and I nearly had a heart attack from excitement lol
okay I get this and all, but if my physiology doesn't allow me to comfortably play with curved fingers and fingertips only pressing the valves straight down, I can't play any kind of fast passage at any bpm AT ALL. (I'm not in a marching band but in wind/concert bands) The only problems I got was when I put 'too much finger' over the valve, then the valve would indeed slow down. But otherwise, no.
TheJH1015 'tis why you practice.
Part of practicing is physical conditioning. Get a finger exerciser thingy. I've got one if you need a brand.
Great video. Even better with the commenter noise at the beginning.
I understood this was more of a potential issue with bottom sprung valves common in British brass bands of yesteryear. However I was always told that using finger pads was to protect against carpal tunnel syndrome which could end your career as a professional.
Hey Trent, what is your take on dry vs. wet lipped playing? I am a trumpet player who has to play with pacific ocean lips or I feel like I can't control which partial I'm in. Is one way better or is it just personal preference?
lmao @ pacific ocean lips
I'm the same way
I've been a trumpet player for years. It doesn't really matter how you press them down as long as you press them straight down.
Playing with flat fingers is often shamed a bit into in more professional studies, but rather because it avoids less presition, specifically for fast pieces or extracts. The common agreement is for arched fingers, naturally relaxed, arched hand and fingertips on the valves. My Conservatory's professor eveb suggest that this position follows the logistic of natural arched and relaxed hand placement on other instruments such the piano, violine, flute, cello, etc. It is simply agreed that a natural curve releases tention therefor providing relaxation and presition. Of course I have seen a good amount of players use flat fingers fine, yet I strongly believe on the straditional conservatory method. Relaxed hand placement.
I never will mess up my brass instruments valves. Trombone master race!!!!
Andrew Hare ayy
Andrew Hare first of all yass trombone is the best second of all even a valve trombone is better because rotary valves
I've never seen a valve trombone with rotary valves.
ayyyyyyy
Straight tenor master race
0:25 "...saying *N Y E E E E E H!*"
I have my son push the valves with his finger tips to promote technique, he's only 8. If he were of a talent like Al Hirt, well, then that's a different story. To suppose that one would damage a valve by using the overlapping fingers is absurd. Most of the strong Jazz players do exactly that. Take a peek at Wynton Marsalis playing classical, uses the finger tips, then when he plays Jazz, he overlaps. Those who critique most likely cannot play worth crap.
I really appreciate this video because I've gotten a lot of crap for similar stuff and I just get mad because hey I'm playing all the right notes in the right rhythm so why does anyone care? I've had one of my instruments for 8 years and the only issue I've ever had is a stuck mouthpiece, and that was someone else's fault.
Telling it, like it is, no quarter, listen and comprehend.......
I have no clue why I'm watching this, I'm a tenor sax player and a pianist 😂😂
Oboe, bassoon, and clarinet
DCI uses a curved fingertip technique because they want everyone to be uniform and that makes it a bit easier to play technical runs, they don't do it because of bending a valve.
How legendary would 3:32 have been if it was "that issue is going to be caused by.... your poorness. get your money up"
Not that I disagree, but Brass and Monel (the alloy used in most high end valves) are much softer metals than steel, titanium, etc, which would be the conventional "metal" metals. It is possible to bend solid brass of the thickness of a valve stem, with enough strength and focus. Is that going to happen with the 70 grams it takes to play a valve? no, and you're right. But several 10 million little presses will slowly make an impact. (not that anyone but the most professional would ever play their valve that much)
Also, the whole valve is not one solid block. The monel (or stainless steel, if they're cheap) valve core is attached by some way to the brass stem. A good instrument will have the brass extend deep into the middle, with a strong mechanical connection. Cheap ones may make it shorter, or horrors, use an adhesive. If something fails, it would be this connection i suspect, not the stem itself. I do know of an instance (not personally) where the stem separated from the core entirely. And it is theoretically possible that it may have been caused by lateral pressure. Of course, it was the most cheapest of instruments.
no
Jesse Mallen congrats. As soon as you actually have a problem with your valve after applying negligible force 10 million times, tell me.
I've been playing for 8 years as I want, brass or other metals like aluminum and copper won't bend with just the force that you put on them with your fingers, even if it is a repetitive and rapid task, they won't bend, not even a little.
Jesse Mallen I
My olds ambassador cornet is a very reliable cornet. So i understand that the olds brand is a good brand.
It's not about bending the valve. It's about technique. You have more control and speed by placing the flat pads of your fingers (not the tips vertically, but horizontally) on the valves. Playing with the middle to lower parts of your fingers across the valves is only making your job harder. If you care to rant further, take it up with every trumpet player I've ever studied under...from my 6th grade band director through present day.
He's not a professional and seems to be able to play whatever piece he likes without problem, so I don't know what the problem is there. Technique is like embouchure: yes, there are certain Do-Nots, but otherwise everyone's technique is different and so long as every note and rhythm is playable and it doesn't cause the player harm, they're fine. Of course, not everyone sees it that way and some can even be my-way-or-the-highway kind of people (coughcoughegotisticaltrumpetplayerscough).
In my days of dabbling with trumpets, cornets, and valve trombones, alongside playing Euphonium on a regular basis, it doesn't seem to matter how I press the valves down. So long as my fingers don't hit each other and the valves don't stick, I'm able to play whatever I need to. Most of the time the middle part of my finger, if not the knuckle nearest the fingernail, is what presses the valve down because my fingers are lengthy and it's uncomfortable or kinesthetically awkward to play any other way.
Musical Endeavors true. But it's still very poor form, and a bad habit. You may be able to play "good enough" for your purposes, but it does make the job harder than it needs to be, especially for more technical parts. You can certainly do it the wrong way and have it work, but once you start tonguing a run of 32nd notes, proper technique pays off!
BINGO
Phildog1 congrats have fun with your rimsky korsakov lightning speed demon shit
I didn't say I was GOOD at it. You still have to practice (and have some degree of talent...of which I have "some) ;-)
Should I tell you that you're going to break your valves anyway, just to piss you off?
I'd like to see the monster that can bend valves with his bare fingers.
6:35 HE REDEEMS HIMSELF!!!! THANK YOU!!!
Hi Trent you are right, keep a car well maintained, and it will run 500000 km with ease. Those pistons are a lot shorter than in an instrument and are always pressing sideways. And with the speed and times they go up and down you have to play more than 100 years continuously before they wear out
And you are pressing right, your fingers will feel it when pressing the valve is slightly more difficult.
When I'm playing valves, I vary whether I play with my finger tips or the pads of my first digits, curling the fingers to varying degrees keeps my fingers from aching. Just like when I play my main instrument, slide trombone, the way I hold the instrument with my left hand isn't usually the way I was taught.
😅😅😅I'm a trombonist😅😅😅
You've had more variations of complaints than there are variations of exercises in the Arban's Book.
tl;dr: If you have a crap instrument with sloppy valves, you'll wear them out even faster by not babying them as much as possible. Otherwise, you're possibly sacrificing speed for comfort or vice versa with your preferred hand position.
Could you do some woodwind videos?
I've noticed that James Morrison also does not finger with the tips of his fingers.
I have a problem. The bell of my trombone - echoes only in Bb first and second octave. Something like a hall is heard.
All solders are ok, no loose parts. When I put my hand on the logo, it stops echoing in Bb. The bell was bent and fixed from a repairman. Most probably this is the cause. My question is how can this mysterious problem be fixed ?
Ivan
Sofia, Bulgaria
Uh I use rotary values so I don't have that problem
Matthew Carter I play sax, I win... no valves, no slides, no bullshit
Exploderhead666 so you never have to lubricate your sax?
McMuffinFluffin I always lubricate before sax. Practice safe sax always kiddo
"no valves, no slides, no bullshit" * goes out to buy another set of reeds and have his pads replaced *
@@CommodoreKulor Reed's are really the only thing that's a pain about the saxophone. Pads only need to be replaced every couple years unless they are out in the rain when you're marching or something like that. Thanks other thing that you have to do every once and a while is oil the keys, but again that's not very often. Honestly it's probably harder to take care of a sax. I don't think it's hard to take care of either of them
See while playing with flat fingers isn’t technically bad for the instrument, playing more on the fingertips will allow you to play faster and have better control, especially during more technically demanding excerpts
I think sayin ur fingers are flat is a meme now lol
This is why, Kent's channel is one of my favorites.
(Trent). I see your channel has a bunch of content on communications - I work as a Telecommunications Solutions Architect. Small world.
I would've thought if someone were to complain about your grip, it would be more for carpel tunnel or what have you. That seems to make more sense to me, still probably an unnecessary worry, though.
I do have to say after playing my Bach Stradivarious for nearly 20 years i did have to get my valves lapped becuase of using bad techniue with my fingering technique. It was only on the top part of the valves but yes it still happens. I take very good care of my trumpets but im not going to change if i have to pay my horn tech $40 every 20 years I say screw it play however makes you comfortable.
Finger tech is important. I gave myself a tendonitis by having flat fingers instead of curved ones when I started with the sax.
Metal fatigue is not something I consider. I consider human flesh fatigue, and curved fingers reduce it. My instrument will wear out this way or another, even with perfect tech, I care much more about my tendons than anything.
Note: I don't actually know you at all at this point this is the second video I've seen...I'm just making a general statement.
Whenever anyone says "this" is the one and only correct technique and "that" is wrong, you can find a professional at the highest level doing "that". As a child taking piano lessons with Mrs. Mahan, she chided me for holding my hands too flat and not arching my fingers enough. She even took a pin sometimes, believe it or not, and if I let my hands droop too low would stick me in the wrist. Some years later I noticed that Vladimir Horowitz held his hands EXACTLY as low as I did. Apparently, he did not have Mrs. Mahan as a teacher.
i have a question- if you dont press the instrument into your lips, is it okay to hook your pinky into the ring? my director always yells at me for it but i dont press into my face at all
Look, the answer to proper valving technique is simple. The finger should accommodate the motion of the valve key. On a rotary valve instrument, the motion of the valve key describes an arc as it is depressed. On a piston valve instrument, the motion of the valve key is straight up and down. So, fingering the rotary valve with flatly held fingers works out, as they will also describe an arc when depressing a valve key. But, with piston valves, the fingers should be curled up and over, so that the finger tip can strike straight down while depressing the valve key. Now, this is proper technique. It has nothing to do with valve speed, or valve wear, or anything else. It's just a question being proper. Like wearing gloves while driving, or using your silverware from the outside in as laid out, or tipping your hat to a lady. Please people, we must maintain minimum standards of deportment, lest we all devolve to savagery.
Looks like you're in excellent company Mr Hamilton! ua-cam.com/video/rNgWga8VnWo/v-deo.html
Honestly you are more likely to harm yourself than the instrument. Most of playing technique is for the musicians benefit and less for the instruments benefit. Playing technique is mostly to prevent a repetitive strain injury. Also whatever technique works best for you use it. A trumpet player is not supposed to puff out their cheeks while playing but did that stop Dizzy Gillespie?
Keeping your fingers curved has nothing to do with damaging the valve casing as this video suggests. Perhaps, people have said that to you but they would be wrong. It has to do with muscle structure the fact that flattening out your fingers puts tension in all the muscles in your hand, which slows you down. If you curve your fingers, your hands would be more relaxed, and you can play passages faster/in time.
There is no right or wrong way to do it. What ever works for you is OK. .TRENT, you play well. These NAYSAYERS are JELIOUS.
I play trombone why am I watching this
Yuuko Yoshikawa because the future has been revealed to you
I support your arbuments and i dont really care how you play. Just di what you feel like is best.
I personally dont like the flat fingers beccause i dont have the same control over the Valves as with different grips.
i fell very uncomfrortable when doing it that way and i have to say it sounds a lot worse. Now you could say that this is just my opinion, but many of my Friends share this and actually sound a lot worse than they actually could.
Your fingering is optimal daily compressivebecause your fingers have similiar the same length.(beware a bit short but not to much as thick)But you work more on embouschure then lingering the fingering.
I never commented but I don't really care about how your fingers are presented but if you sound good and play the right note I DON'T CARE
The only reason why I press my valves straight up and down is to make it easier to press my valves down quickly for sixteenth-note runs. I honestly don't see physical damage as a reason to stop, I personally just see that it is easier to play passages with rapid fingering changes.
Carrot stick valves? I see a collaboration video with the guy who makes flutes out of vegetables.
The only thing anyone should be concerned about as far as their finger position on the valve is that their fingers are comfortable and can quickly press the valves down. There's no one way that is correct for everyone because everybody's fingers are different.
I can think of a finger position that could be articulated for your critics. As you say, valve goes up, valve goes down....
If playing with flat fingers is bad, a vast herd of players are guilty. Is this science, or is it more like, do you curl your pinky when you drink tea?
I was told it is more for the player than the instrument. It is more natural for the hands, with the least amount of energy, to bend in the curled fashion pushing straight down on the valves. similar to how you play piano.
just what I was taught
yees and yees and yees of development
💯 treat your instrument with respect there’s been a lot of work put into building it! (The good ones!)
The best instruments are built to last a lifetime + you only get what you pay for bit like a 🚗 car
I have been using them like that and had to oil them every time
I think the criticism is more about the speed of your fingers which basically makes the whole video pointless.
Amen!
Is it better to play with gloves or no gloves. I've never thought about my finger position. I just play.
cool video I agree with you good instruments is very hard to broke you need to use hammer hehe
Carrot pistons, lol. Only noobs use carrots. Everyone knows pros use zucchini.
I play the trumpet, but the way you talk in this video is funny. Not the accent, but what you say. Lol
Lubricated for the player's pleasure, now we are talking...
*Noooeeeyaaeeehhhhhha*
yOu'rE uSinG yoUr vAlvES wRonG
*NNNNyeeeeeYYYaaaAAAAAAAA*
0:26
I use a mixture of hand and finger postures. Whatever is comfortable.
I'm triggered.
1:50 yeah...I would hope not...
But what about the rotary valves, huh? WHAT ABOUT THEM?!
I'm gonna play with a sledgehammer
By not doing what the viewer thinks is correct you run the risk of someone telling you to stop it
Me, a trombone player: I know I’m using my valves wrong
your supposed depress you valves by lowering their self cofidence
Nice one! But what is this "iffet" you keep expending?
How to fix if the valve not coming back up after I oil
And the instruments are all Yamaha the trumpet is a bloody xeno!
The only way to have a maximum of control (and to be sure to put a full down force without lateral one) is the right way, it's just physics man... and maybe you need to play more years the same instrument in a real bad way (with lateral force) to see what happen! (oval casing and piston inegal used). Resistance show friction, friction is possible with any tolerance parts, and friction is detruction! So if trumpet have smaller pistons, it's more difficult to detect it, but it's there (premature using). Tradition are often the key for real science...
It's the same for the water key, if you push it in angle, you will see rapidely the effect (tolerance are just greater) and bend arm too, but it's the same logic. Asiatic culture are good to incorporate this in the movement, the way to make things with precision, minimum of force, etc... or individualistic a-culture is good for understand and search WHY we need to... but is bad for humility and discipline.