Pointless Innovation and Wanton Complexity | The Connqueror Cornet
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- Опубліковано 21 лип 2024
- This cornet is form over function.
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You know a collector is serious about his hobby when he has a rotating presentation table.
"I very much enjoy odd and unusual brass instruments". Yes... you've made that abundantly clear.. haha
The 3-prong valve guides were pretty standard at the time in American cornets. The "advantage" to them (I guess you could call it that) is that one's like that with 3 equally-sized teeth are effectively sealed into the valve at the factory. The top of the valve is soldered into the bottom part and the valve guide is too big or the guide slots too narrow for it to rotate and come out. Later versions of this design (King Master models come to mind) have shorter prongs and one prong thicker than the others, so you can rotate them and slide the guide out of the wider slot.
Other things I thought of over the course of the video!
- just take the finger button off the older Connquest, polish it, and complete the newer one! It's a beautiful horn and deserves a complete set haha
- They were built at the same Elkhart factory, but the stamp changed because C.G. Conn was extremely supportive of his factories' unions and actually advertised the Union-made horns as such with pamphlets in the cases, union Shields in ads, and everything.
- iirc from reading, a lot of the decision on how to route the air through the horn was based more on making easy slide pulls/swaps to make one horn play in more keys and pitches.
- Victorian America was a place entirely fueled by bravado and boastful superlatives and Conn's model names show that off beautifully, I think
- there's nothing new under the sun, especially where brass instruments are concerned. "Superbones" as a concept began in the 1890s, for instance, and even today there are plenty of horns with unnecessarily complicated placebo improvements that will make the player swear by them solely because they paid for it. None of the biggest cornet soloist of the day were playing these "experimental" types of horns, maybe with a few occasional exceptions.
Hey Evan, I see you on Trumpet Hang on FB. Very informative comment!
@@SamuelPlaysBrass hey Sam! Small world on the brass interwebs haha
Hi Evan, thanks for your comments - very much appreciated! I tried swapping the finger button over, and the thread was different! I have since removed the valve stem and swap the stems over... I now do have one that is complete. It's so odd that the threads on the finger buttons would be incompatible.
@@TrentHamilton that is weird. So random the things they would change year to year.
An excellent reply! I particularly liked the reference to swapping out slides to pitch the instrument in a different key. That would never have dawned on me.
“CONNstellation”
Much more famous than the other examples
Looking at the 1906 C.G. Conn's Truth (basically their catalog/magazine combination at that point), Conn's claim is that the routing of this valve system means that when the valves are used the "direction of the vibratory air column is simply extended by the use of the valve slides and its general direction is not changed", which I take to mean that basically there are fewer sharp bends in the valve block, and that the angles of the bends are closer to equal between having the valve up or down. Definitely makes for a lot of extra complexity, the real question is whether or not it plays well. I guess an interesting contrast between this and the Couturier is that while that obsesses over a perfect conical bore profile, this sacrifices the amount of tapered tubing for a "better" air passage, as presumably the valves are all of the same bore, which would make the secondary tuning slide loop cylindrical as well.
Another interesting thing I noticed, in the 1904, 1906, and 1910 catalogs it is referred to as a "Conn-queror", with the dash. So, I guess there was some inconsistency within Conn as to what it was called, or perhaps the engraver was tired of that extra line in 1906.
If anyone's interested, here's the section from the 1906 catalog talking about the valve design:
"The Conn-queror Cornet is different from any other cornet, including the above mentioned, inasmuch as the wind passage is new and constructed upon scientific principles. The vibratory air column on leaving the mouthpiece enters the second valve at a point between the valve slides and is conducted to the first valve by means of a connecting bend. It also enters the first valve at a point between the valve slides and is then carried to the second valve, which it also enters between the valve slides, and thence through the valve into the bell. When the valves are depressed the direction of the vibratory air column is simply extended by the use of the valve slides and its general direction is not changed, as is the case with ordinary valve systems. There are no reverse turns or abrupt angles in this new wind passage to break or impair the air vibrations.
Those familiar with the construction of a cornet and the absolute necessity of an improved wind passage will see at a glance that the Conn-queror Cornet possesses advantages not to be found in any other instruments. The conducting of the vibratory air column to a point between the valve slides admits of a greater facilities of execution and more rapid and difficult passages of music can be played with this cornet, because it responds more freely and has a higher degree of resonance."
Thank you so much for finding this for me! It's hard to judge what the actual experience of playing this instrument would have been like when new, but it seems to be quite stuffy - more so than the Couturier, and a lot more stuffy than the Meredith. I think this might be a case where the "scientific principles" make sense to the mind, but don't actually carry to the real world results - at least not with the 110 year old sample I'm using...
I’ve got a 1905 “Conn-queror” cornet. I just purchased it approximately 2 hours before watching this video. Got a heck of a deal. ✊🏾😕
My engraving has the hyphen, indicating that it might not be a Friday afternoon horn after all. I wonder if anyone has been able to unstuff at least some of the stuffiness with a wider mouthpiece maybe? Or is it just stuffed?
This video is extremely informative, and it would have been even more informative had I found it 2 and 1/2 hours ago.
Thanks for the video! I have a Conn-Queror from 1903, that I've used in my work in the Gothenburg Opera Orchestra, and although somewhat unorthodox in design it is actually a suprisingle well-working cornet! the reason for that extra, weird tuning slide is that if you take it's middle part off, you get a cornet in B. With the middle part back, you get a cornet in Bb, and if you pull the slide out to where there is a grove in the tubing, you get a cornet in A. All the valve slides have two groves in them; pushed all the way in, the instrument is in tune for B cornet, pulled to the first grove it't in tune for Bb, and second grove for A cornet!
Thanks for this. I have one too and couldn't figure out why the intonation was so off on it when all the slides where in.
Thanks for posting. Mel from Long Beach CA. Just picked one of these up at a swap meet. Had a devil of a time arranging the valves to get it to blow. Am I right to say the 3rd valve slide with the marching music holder does not slide at all as well as the 2nd valve small "cleaning" slide? P.S. I have a second main tuning slide that is longer which I assume changes the key too??? No grooves in any slides.
"Marketing bum fluff" nice one.
The way the cornet slowly rotates is very mesmerizing.
Like a rotisserie chicken
Out through the big noisy bit. Love it
You can engineer specific frequencies to resonate in brass instruments by strategically placing conical vs. cylindrical tubing. With more cylindrical runs you're probably pulling up higher frequencies and pulling down lower frequencies. This may be an attempt by Conn at creating a compensating system using only cylindrical/conical variations, rather than Besson's add-a little extra tubing method.
The shield logo is the Metal Polisher's Union, which represented employees at the Conn factory. The Union Label was abandoned about the time the "letter" models were adopted (around 1919).
You look good. Hope you're feeling much better. Nice descriptions of these strange design details. Really missed hearing a demo of the instruments, which you usually do. You play very well.
...."Out the main loud Bit".....and then the noisy bit.....awesome.
The noisy bit!
That style of valve guides was VERY common back in the day. I've got about 4 horns from that era that all have 3 prong valve guides. I personally prefer them to the standard two prong. Something about it gives a smoother and more even action. They're also quite easy to maintain.
From Conn's patent application:The object of this invention is to construct a cornet or similar instrument so that the air vibrations set in use by the performer when the instrument is in use shall be conducted through the valve system without increasing the number of turns or crooks and without changing the general direction of the wind - passage." The patent goes on to explain: "Musical instrument makers have long attempted to manufacture a cornet with an equalized scale, so that both valve and open tones shall have the same freedom, volume and quality. Heretofore they have been unable to do this because there have been more turns or crooks in the wind - passage when the valves are depressed then there were when the valves were not in use. As a result of this faulty wind-passage through the valve system the valve tones were more or less muffled, while the open tones were comparatively open and sonorous."
Never forget that Conn made Tubas that came to be literally known as Conn Monsters, it might not be their real name but it doesn't seem like it'd be out of Conn's naming grounds
Some saxophones from the same period, subcontracted and made in Mexico, were nicknamed “Mexi-conns”. So it is par for the course for CG. Conn.
I don't even play a brass instrument, but I love these looks at the designs of old or weird horns. Really cool to see how they attempted to solve various problems back in the day, for better or worse :P
From the early CONNs i have had, they have been identical to Bolm & Fuch trumpets right down to the engraving, how the wording letter stamps have odd spaces or slightly un-square and the fancy engraving seems to have bits that look like another hand as worked it, has always made me think they are stencils or parts brought in, like most at the time, B&F had the largest custom made factory that employed the top brass makers that later spread all over
My son has a Conn Perfected Wonder. It is a beautiful instrument and still sounds lovely.
I've got a King Eb Alto Horn made by H.N. White made in Cleveland, Ohio that dates back to the mid 1920's. It also has the three-prong valve guides that are equally spaced. There is one, however that is larger, but that doesn't seem to prevent the valve from locking into the two other wrong positions. It looks like a design idea that multiple manufacturers ran with for at least a couple decades at the beginning of the 20th century.
The wrap on those also look unusually large, like, I though it was like a bass cornet or a Flügelhorn
Hi Trent I have a 1906 Lyon and Healy cornet and the design of the valve also has a three guides for the valve it is really annoying to use because every time when I oil the valves I put them back in they lock and get stuck and then the spring gets cockeyed so I have to pull it out and adjust it until I get it right but anyway it is a wonderful cornet in my collection
You gota play it!
It’s a thing of beauty.
Hi, Trent. I am an engineer (retired) and I have spent my life designing... things. Every so often I would be working for a boss who was only interested in making money, regardless of what was produced. When he (It was always a "he") would get a brilliant idea to make more money he would tell engineering to make his bright idea. When engineering would respond, "But, that will make it, blah, blah, blah...," the bossman would respond,"I don't care! I want, blah, blah, blah." Engineers like to keep their jobs, so they create the boss' masterpiece. I believe you are holding just such an example.
Every engineer shudders when they hear, "I don't care," from the boss. They don't care until they find out what a monstrosity they have ordered.
"Union Label"
My 1915 Buescher soprano sax has a union label. As I understand it this was a time of industrial unrest and that label certified that the workers who made it were union members. On Buescher instruments it only appeared on instruments made in 1915 and is a big help in dating those instruments.
I have a series 4 trutone alto and I dont remember it having a union logo, just the TT one.
I have seen a different three-pronged valve guide. I have here a silver and gold 1926 Buescher True-Tone Model 9 Bb/A convertible trumpet that has three *unequal* prongs. Two are the same, while one is about twice the width. Thus it rotates and drops into the right place. To me the best is the single-prong models of the various Olds trumpets and others.
Connstellation, best off named Conns :-)
my current horn by Conn is just an unassuming model, 14D
You should do a video on the Conn-o-Sax.
Interestingly, Conn did not adopt the Connqueror name for its saxophones until the 1930s. Connqueror saxes were only made from the late 1930s to the early 1940s. The main difference between the premium Connqueror saxes and their lesser contemporary Conn models was special microtuning adjustment screws to allow real personalization of the key action. Though some find this too fiddly to be worth it, it makes way more sense than pointlessly weird tube routing! The Connqueror saxes were succeeded by the Connstellation model, though only the alto was produced.
p.s. "Bumfluff" is my new favorite word!
Did you go to college at all for music performance or theory or conducting or education at all? Or do you do this for fun? Or both? Anyways, love the videos!
I have a 1914 King (I think ) trumpet that has the three equally spaced valve guides but one of them is bigger so it only fits in one way.
Musicians love to make things more complex and difficult. Makes 'em seem smarter.
Trent! I just discovered you and love the channel. I’m wondering, do you also sing barbershop music? The intro to this video sounds like the tag “When I Leave The World Behind”
Damn. I was hoping to actually hear it. Please play these instruments that you talk about!
Cool engravings on the bells though! :)
If the older but better condition instrument is still playable (I'd scavenge the third valve top from the newer cornet and put it on the older one) it would be interesting to do a comparison of effort required/playability between this and a comparable but less over engineered design.
Bumfluff 😂
I've seen a cornet with rings instead of buttons on top. If your valve got stuck you could pull it up. Some said they could play faster by pressing and pulling on the valve rings than buttons. Selmer made a cornet where the valves were not parallel to each other - the third valve angled the top away from the player and the first valve top was angled toward the player. The idea was since the second valve was played with your longer finger, you could maintain "the claw" hand position for faster valving. I've also seen a compensating cornet. The second tubing on the second valve was about the size of a piccolo trumpet second valve tube and the fourth valve was mounted horizontally and played with the right hand. It looked awkward when working a harmon mute or a plunger.
Maybe you can acquire such instruments and show them to the world????
Any idea what brand the ring-valve instrument was? I'd love to see more about it.
hey, the conn-queror reminds me of an old john wayne movie filmed on the set of radioactive fallout....seriously, i have 2 of these old conn horns and i must say, they play low notes really good....like there's an additional resonance or something....didn't Buescher design this horn?
Hi Trent, I hope you are recovering well. I wonder... have you heard of Rube Goldberg? In the United States there's an annual contest named for Rube Goldberg, a cartoonist in the late 19th and well into the 20th century, who did many cartoons of ridiculously complicated machines to automate a very simple process. This certainly sounds like a Rube Goldberg design. As a musician I love your videos. As a mechanical engineer I particularly like this video. What engineer in their right mind would think up this design!? It's so clearly unnecessarily complicated. I always enjoy your videos. Cheers!
Conn Director..... That bucked the trend....I have a Conn director Cornet 1963. Still has all of its lacquer. And original wood case which still is functional although one catch spring has gone. Daughter used to play it when learning.. And a York Trumpet made by musica steyr Austrian built. With wierd valve design
Could you describe the weird valve design?
@@TrentHamilton here is the valves as seen here but you cannot see the full view of the set up maybe i can take a pic tomorrow of mine here...my trumpet is earlier model than this I think but same valves...www.ebay.com/itm/York-Trumpet-Austria-1970s-Excellent-Demo-Model-with-New-Case-and-York-MP/113789849692?_trkparms=aid%3D1110001%26algo%3DSPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D40718%26meid%3Dbdecfa3b541749edbb8e387948f3655c%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D193090347409%26itm%3D113789849692%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851
From what i have read the valves are kind of bullet proof and very robust and must admit they feel good, i have original case also with it..apparently this horns claim to fame was it was used in a studio session with the leader singer of Spandau ballet pop group. ...lol
What if you made a cornet with tuba like bore and then it go smaller and smaller until the bore is like a French horn
“190 *S E X* “ had me dying
I love when instrument designers throw features at the wall and see what will stick. Just do crazy stuff, and see what ends up working. Yeah, make your normal, quality instruments, but also weird stuff.
can you make an update on your chinese bach stradivarius
"Hey Trent!" Great info on the C.G conn cornets there're a rare breed of horns. Not too many of thoses wonderful instruments around anymore. Trent, I'm wondering if you sell vintage trumpets,cornets,flugelhorns,trombones(either straight or f attachment models)and even marching bell front frenchhorns. Although, i have your mailing address would you let me know if, indeed you do? I'll appreciated very much, "Thanks Trent!" looking forward to hear from you. Walter
Hi Walter, I'm not really looking to sell any of my collection, although if there's something specific you're interested in then we can talk.
the connquerer also came with an A tuning slide.
A shame I'm two months late, but nice intro! Barbershop sounds great in low brass!
Front this day hence I shall call the bell of all my instruments "The Noisy Bit"😁
Hi Trent, Have you made a video on the "ECHO" cornet. I my father had one. I remember playing it, by pressing a 4th valve the sound came out of a muted tube instead of the noisy bit.
I have an echo cornet on order, just an Sai one from India alas, cheap and no doubt cheerless. It seems to be difficult to get hold of "proper" (reputable) echo cornets. From my limited research it looks like the idea never caught on, and people decided to just use an external mute for better choice/flexibility. An interesting idea though; there are some good UA-cam videos where people perform effectively with echo cornets.
Unfortunately not. I don't have one in my collection, and they're a bit expensive to get a decent one.
Can you do a video on bore adapter for like small bore to large bore
That's not because you stopped using an adapter. That's because you stopped using a mouthpiece that is >5mm too deep for the instrument. A Schilke 31B is something like 25mm deep and that's shallow by American standards. A typical Alto Horn mouthpiece is less than 21mm. Whatever the heck Mellophone mouthpiece you're using is probably less than 16mm deep.
But seriously, the only shank adapter that really makes sense is small tenor to medium (euro) shank. It's the only one that costs significantly less than a new mouthpiece. Small to large tenor is dumb unless your main horn is small shank and you play the world's most obscure mouthpiece. French Horn adapters are dumb unless you're really digging into some mega obscure instrumentation (see above). All those Trumpet, Cornet, and Flugel related things are ridiculous. Of the ones that don't just fit into the shank anyways, you'd never have a reason to bother. And again, for 99% of adapters, the cost is absurd compared to just buying a mouthpiece.
I assume that the valve tops aren’t missing by design? Strange instruments, but quite fascinating!
It could be deliberate for all we know
I would have thought he’d have said so if that was the case. I had to once play my Flügelhorn without one of the valve caps for half a piece of music, it was not pleasant at all.
Why do not all the valves have things at the top
Hi Trent. Have you ever heard of Henri Farve manufacture from France? I have an Alto Horn made by them. I do not know anything about them and, if possible, can you please let me know when they were in business?
Is the fingering the same?
If you want to use three valve guides, better not to have them equally spaced. That way it's keyed to a particular orientation. Video game controllers, of all things, do this, though I suspect it's as much about distinguishing between the different buttons at assembly time.
Trent is a fine presenter, knowledgeable, and a respectable player. His Kiwi accent though needs to be addressed. Pronunciations are quite weird but very endearing! I enjoy all his videos.....
i have a conn elkhartino baritone. at least its interesting as a name however mine is in bad shape because i bought it at a local thrift shop in a non working condition however i managed to get it working all but two tuning slides which are completely stuck. do you have any easy ways to remove them. i would take it to a repair shop but i do not have a repair shop anywhere near me.
I've read the 3rd valve slide is not removable. On this recent Conn-Connqueror purchase, there are 2 "stuck" slides.
My Bach trumpet has 2 valve guides. Aren’t they different sizes so you cannot put them in wrong? I’ve never put mine in wrong and I never pay attention to them at all. That cannot all be by chance
Conn models? No mention of the Conn Artist? Must be the worst model name ever.
And what about the "Connstellation" trombones?
Funny that you're talking about air flowing through. It's sound waves that flow. The air could be perfectly still and it would play the same.
Except the propagation of the vibrations is affected by the warmth of one's breath. Human lips cannot generate vibrations at the appropriate frequency without airflow. So the flow of air affects the ability of the lips to vibrate, that vibration affects the sound.
@@TrentHamilton Yes, air is required to vibrate the lips, but nothing more. Air is not responsible for the resistance experienced when playing a brass instrument. Sound is.
The principle is stated at 6:03 in this vid ua-cam.com/video/WZvDvuxjHvU/v-deo.html
@@peterc.7841 I've seen that video before. It would have been nice to hear that with a proper microphone. I do not believe that the tone quality would be anywhere near as good.
@@TrentHamilton Yes unfort Mr Smith does not produce a nice full sound with any airflow method in that video.
Is 'wanton complexity' the same as baroque?
Hello Trent, What is the best instrument to play that is Brass in School Bands?
Low brasz
Asintado please play French horn
Bassooner or later , mk
@@angryzack1640 I would probably agree. I started on tenor trombone. It was tempting to go for high brass to get more melodic pieces, but it's just as important to balance those out with oompah parts in the alto/tenor/bass voices. Lower brass can be amazing if you want to add to the overall sound of the group without being the person in the spotlight doing all the twiddly bits. Take note though, Trent gave his customarily excellent advice in another video: don't start off with euphonium as it requires advanced skills. Perhaps try tenor trombone, baritone or tenor/alto horn as a middle ground.
Someone should make a prank instrument where each valve can be put in in three orientations, but all three of them are playable. Depending on how they're turned, each valve would function as a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd valve. You could give it to someone with the valves all turned around and watch as they struggled with the mixed-up fingerings.
It might be too hard to route three different air passages through each piston but if it was only two, it might be very doable. I think the coolest way would be if you unscrewed the piston from the pushrod and flipped it over, with extra bores designed such that it would now have precisely the opposite effect! The trumpet would sound as if all three were depressed and pressing them would raise the pitch.
I live less than 20 miles from where these were made. Less than an hour away. Small world we live in.
The music goes in and down and round and round and it comes out here.Who sang it?
Red Nichols (and his five pennies).
Ella Fitzgerald
where can i order Conn Querer Valve kits?
i have a 1905 that i am restoring
Is there a tuba register in the cornet family?
One might regard the Euphonium/tuba family as the cornets of the low brass world, whereas the alto/tenor and baritone saxhorns are the trumpets, purely in terms of the bore shape. That being said, there is an actual bass trumpet and no bass cornet as such, no.
@@georgeparkins777 Wikipedia puts tubas in the saxhorn family. It puts flugelhorns in that family too, but not cornets.
I wonder if computer design and modeling has made an impact on modern brass instruments.
I wouldn't be surprised, modern physics simulations are incredibly advanced and I'm sure modern manufacturers have used them to make millions of tiny changes that have resulted in more significant differences in how instruments play. Modern manufacturing techniques have also greatly increased the consistency of quality.
I own a Connstellation 48h trombone
Turbo Charged Coronet
smart intro
Aside from the valve guides, there is no significant difference between the Conn Conn-queror and a conventional cornet. The second tuning slide is probably a convenient place to put an optional "A" tuning slide, since the Conn-queror was marketed as a B-flat/A cornet.
If you don't like it, then clean it up and sell it. Austin Custom Brass (in Texas) has a 1906 Conn-queror for sale for $599.99 right now.
I like a big noisy bit.
Louis Armstrong
Marketing bum fluff? 🤣
you forgot Connstellation
It's always form over function. A mediocre, but cool looking instrument will always have a better chance than some ugly duckling.
I think I recall reading the reasoning behind this goofy air path, but I forget what it was. In any event, there was some reason besides "looks cool" and "cornet things", even if it was still marketing wank.
As far as the valve guides, the worst I've ever seen are actually the Frumpet's. Just got one and was totally floored when I took a valve out the first time. Massive, sloppy fitting valve guide with no indication of direction. Top sprung pistons are the freaking worst.
According to other commenters, the design of the tuning slides allowed for the instrument to be played in several separate keys.
@@megelizabeth9492 And? Literally every Cornet with a removable leadpipe (shanks) was designed to play in multiple keys and pitch standards. This is nothing new and in no way unique to this Cornet.
Sort of like current automobiles. Pointless (and useless) innovation and completely un-necessary complexity!