I do not think people have to imagine what it is like for elves to have to live such long lives and see those they know pass while they remain. I think they can understand if they consider their pets. How many dogs will you develop a close relationship with in your lifetime. Raise it, care for it, tend to it when it is sick, and ultimately say goodbye to it. That is probably why the elves seem to be full of spirit in the First and Second Ages but by the Third seem detached to mortals. It is not that they do not care, it may in fact be the opposite, that they care deeply but only rarely make their interventions noticeable.
Are you saying that the men of the Fourth Age are lacking in contrast to their forefathers? Was it not their forefathers who surrendered their souls to the Dark Lord for want of power? I think that the arc of the story is the opposite of your opinion.
"Are you saying that the men of the Fourth Age are lacking in contrast to their forefathers?" It's established in the Silmarillion that the first men were of similar stature to that of Elves. So yes, they've been reduced, likely due to the marring of Arda by Morgoth.
the world itself is becoming mortal, and the Elves cannot survive in such a world for long. Their spirits are too powerful and lives too long to endure such a place.
I think Galadriel mentions fading well: "Yet if you succeed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlórien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweep it away. We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten." From the point of view where Tolkien' desired to create a mythology for Britain, the idea of the fairy being a faded elf is interesting to ponder.
In a nutshell, the reason was that: Elves must go to the Undying Lands because there nothings fades, the same reason why the love of Aragorn & Arwen is painful is because Argorn is human and will die. Basically elves are just tired of being hurt.
Yes but to are is also apply the same question as her father , to which kindred they want to belong to and she chose a mortal life, as been and Lothian
You know when you are an elf and you have eternal life the idea of going into war is understandably not worth the risk. Would also explain why elves are so proficiently skilled with the bow
That's the Wood Elves, the Noldor are more into swords and armor. And they have eternal life whether they're killed in battle or not because they'll eventually be reincarnated after their spirits rest for a while in the Halls of Mandos in Valinor (although Tolkien said that being killed was enormously traumatic for them and not something they'd take lightly the way, say, the immortals in the Highlander movies and series do.)
@@placeholdername3818 Even for immortal Elves violent death is horribly traumatic, and some of them spend eons as disembodied spirits in the Halls of Mandos before they're able to be reincarnated.
And if we see the influence of the bible on the works of Tolkien, then we see that only when the exiled Jews leave the lands of their exile and return home, will they be an "eternal people," matched to an eternal land.
Elves are my favorite race in Arda. I really wish the elves could have somehow stopped Fading and stayed in Middle Earth. Them leaving made Middle Earth feel less like the high fantasy I love in Silmarillion.
Thats because the world becomes the world we have today. Where men become dominant. Kinda funny if it would be real. Those elves and such would be looking back at earth and laugh what kinda shithole humans have made for themselves.
@@davidamajako961 Maybe some youngsters would try to go halfway and see all the despair, deaths and corruption and just decide to turn back. I can imagine the expression :D
anne rice undoubtedly took the sorrow to inspire how her vampires die out. "Do you know how few vampires have the stamina for immortality? How quickly they perish of their own will? The world changes. We do not. Therein lies the irony that finally kills us." -Armand
8:22 Oh? the stars are untouched by Morgoth's evil, you say? "There is light and beauty up there, that no shadow can touch" brings an extra layer of meaning to Sam's line in the movie, adapted from the passage in the book. "There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Being a Tolkienist for years, I can say that your analizing skill is astonishing and mezmorizing, the theme of dualism (two sources of nature- the soul and external body) is a debatable philosophical issue that Tolkien used in a very beautiful manner.
I am afraid that not all Elves went to Valinor. In the chapter "Of Men" of the Silmarillion, Tolkien wrote: "In after days, when because of the triumph of Morgoth Elves and Men became estranged [that is what we see in LotR], as he most wished, those of the Elven-race that lived still in Middle-earth waned and faded, and Men usurped the sunlight. Then the Quendi [the Elves] wandered in the lonely places of the great lands and the isles, and took to the moonlight and the starlight, and to the woods and caves, becoming as shadows and memories, save those who ever and anon set sail into the West and vanished from Middle-earth." And Galadriel seems to say that the fate of the Lingerers will be even worse: "We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten." It looks like that not only their hröar will fade, but that their fëar will become dimmer as well.
I wonder if this is a nod to the way the belief in faeries and elves etc faded in Western society. There are definitely still people who believe in them but most people nowadays do not.
I love the lore of the Eldar. The Lord of the Rings' universe is so beautifully woven together, and it almost has a tone of sorrow throughout, especially when it comes to the elves. I also just genuinely feel like Tolkien's elves are divine beings, and everything they do is perfect and epic and amazing, blah blah blah. I could go on forever, but the writing speaks for itself.
Dude, I am way impressed. quoting Tolkien, you have explained the Christian doctrine of the Fall From Grace. "Arda Marred" is what it's all about and sums it up perfectly.
Yes, one can read a lot of Christian theology into the saga of Middle Earth. Eru Illuvatar is God, the other Valarie are the archangels, Morgoth is Lucifer, whose rebellion corrupted the earth and everything in it, etc. The trilogy is, IMHO, one of the masterpieces of Western literature.
"The fire of their spirit..." That makes me think of my father. He died young, at 59 01/11/2016. When I was young he always seemed larger than life. Much like some of the characters in these stories. He was a boyscout, navy man, scout master, talented musician, electronic tech, teacher, government employee of the spaces porogram during the height of its' popularity in the 1990's. He was my hero, I chased him for so long, not catching him until the birth of my daughter on his birthday. They were so close. I miss him him so very much.
Man Geek this was such a deep and beautiful video thanks a lot for making it just like I find it sad that Elves and Dwarfs were never meant to get along I also find it sad that Elves had to leave Middle Earth if only Morgoth never tanted Arda with his dark influence but then again I guess the Elves were always meant to be in Valinor and were always meant to stay there till I watched this video I always thought it would be so awesome to be immortal but now I know that like everything it has its positives and its negatives anyway as I always say loved this video and keep up the great work! :)
Aman and Middle Earth came to be because of the changes Melchor made during his return and war with the Valars destroying the lamps and Amaren and splitting Arda into continents, one of which is Aman where Valinor is.
Arwen chose fading over her love for Aragorn. She literally went back to Lothlorian after his death and died amidst the trees where her grandparents had lived for millennia.
@@krystasites9034 Okay. Tolkien needs to stop then. And then you going around telling everyone without a warning. Anyways I'm just being extra about it cause it's sad and I didn't know that before.
@@rminkof No. She chose to be mortal. She didn't choose humanity, thats like saying "a dog chose to be a cat". These are different races. Anyway, mortal elves still live a lot longer than humans, even Dunedain like Aragorn, so @Krysta reetz is actually right about Arwen "suiciding". She went to Lorien and spent an entire winter there, all alone (although for an elf a winter must feel like a few days for us), then she laid down at a spot where she and Aragorn once had a romantic moment (Cerin Amroth) and died, while their first son became King of Gondor. Galadriel and her Husband Celeborn were actually her grandparents. Here is the link to a forum where it is clarified and the actual book passage is cited: www.quora.com/In-The-Lord-of-the-Rings-does-Arwen-become-mortal-or-is-she-immortal-She-is-able-to-choose-to-live-a-mortal-life-but-what-exactly-does-that-mean-Does-that-mean-she-is-capable-of-dying-Does-the-story-of-L%C3%BAthien-explain-anything
When you mentioned elves "fading" , I'm reminded of the Nazgul , Gollum, and Bilbo - the rings of men and the One Ring stretched their lives until they are only shadows of themselves. I believe it is both a mockery and a mirror of what elves experience.
at least Bilbo managed to stay lucid and free spirited into old age despite being exhausted by the Ring. The Elves fading seems to be exactly like the Nazgul.
@@rminkof the Ringbearers were invited to Valinor. Frodo was tormented by his three wounds, Bilbo was nearing the end of his life and Sam came after living for 80 years, the best life any Hobbit could. The Ring has no effect on them after it is destroyed, but Frodo in particular feels empty and sad.
Great video and very well researched. Once I read, (don't know if in the books or on some forum) that men envied the elves for their immortality, while elves envied men for not having to endure the slow decay of time and the grief that it brings. Each race was adamant that Eru favoured their counterparts. To be honest, before delving into Middle Earth lore, I used to think that immortality must be such a great thing to experience. However, once I read most of Tolkien books I was not sure of that anymore.
Yes I think it's from the Finrod writing I mentioned in the video, where Finrod says that Elves might eventually come to envy the mortality of men, and the gift of men that their spirits are not bound to the world of Arda.
But those elves who stayed in the undying lands are immortal and don't have to suffer it's downsides. Not only that they live with benevolent demi-gods, their land remains at peace since the beginning times and the quality of everything there is probably amazing, architecture, art, food will all be of heaven-like quality. Men have no opt-out for the disadvantages of their "gift" :P
I would add that the Fea of the Elves can be redressed in the Halls of Mandos, so the fading, like death, is not permanent to them. As long as there is Arda, so will they be. This is why you were on point at the end of your video. The timelessness of Valinor (the literal Undying Lands) is more in-tune with the elven nature, so they will be happier there.
BEST VIDEO YET! I've always wondered about the meaning of "elves fading". The metaphysics of Tolkien's Middle-Earth/Valinor is better made than any other fantasy mythology.
Joe Jessup they get tired of living, so they just give up, and pretty much stay in one place like sitting or laying down for many years till they literally become nothing
This explains a lot about them to me, especially their sadness. Taking the ship to the West. It s a wonderful option though. I wish we mortals had that. Valinor, the Undying Lands.... what a great way to live out the rest of your life. At peace, with nothing to think or worry about. I wish I could 've gone with them.
the Elves warned that for uninvited mortals, Valinor would be too much and they would burn out quickly as Men don't live that long. the Ringbearers and Gimli had invitations from powerful people in Valinor so one presumes they are allowed to be there with protection. It's not heaven, it's elven-home. Men go beyond this to places unknown even to the Elves, who are jealous of this fact.
I am an absolute nerd when it comes to LOTR. I stumbled across your lore vids and not only am I impressed by your insight as well as the literature that you have had the ability to both read and share but you make me look like a novice when it comes to LOTR. I thought I knew a lot but I have learned so much from watching your vids. I would like to thank you for your insight and exposure to more literature and lore. Specifically the notes from Tolkien. Is that a book that can be purchased or were you lucky enough to get your hands on one. Keep up the awesome work. I would love to share with you that my close friends and I that geek out over LOTR have an annual get together we call Sauron-a-thon. Every year,a couple of times a year,we get together,put a menu together of what we think folks of that time period would have feasted upon and eat,drink, and be merry all while watching all 3 of the extended versions of the fellowship in one day. We tried incorporating the Hobbit movies but they have a much different feel about them and they did not quite fit. Hope you enjoyed the anecdote. Take care.
I wish I had such dedicated nerd-friends like you and yours! XD Perhaps you live in the Northwest, and I might travel to your gathering's abode to make merry and view the glory that is LotR with my fellow devotees? ; D
DMT Me too, at least I thought so. I’ve read unfinished tales and the Silmarillion but didn’t know about the 12 volume history of middle earth.I have some reading to do!
Such haunting and interesting explanations. I have read The Silmarillion twice, the Hobbit once, and have seen all 6 of Peter Jackson's movies several times. My greatest interest has always been about the elves. Thank you for your insight.
When you consider all this it really ups the stakes on the Exile of the Noldor. It's a far more serious punishment than simply "you can't come home". Also, when Galadriel rejects the Ring and feels the ban on her return to Valinor lifted, it's a far more powerful moment than it may seem, without knowing the ultimate fate from which she has been reprieved. Great video.
It's not very often that I come across something that I haven't already learned about when it comes to the Lord of the Rings and its lore; therefore, after I clicked on this video and started listening I was pleasantly surprised to hear information that was new to me. Of course I was well aware about the elves leaving for Valinor and the "fading" that had been mentioned numerous times. What I wasn't aware of was the meaning behind the fading and the separation of body and spirit. Well done on explaining this. This topic is one that I have never had the pleasure to investigate closely so it was very enlightening when it was explained in detail in your video...well done! Please continue to make videos like this one that explore the details and lore in the dark corners of Tolkien and his works. Too often content creators recycle the same old stories from Tolkien including the same old lore that we are more or less already aware of. If you can find other hidden gems of lore similar to this one and then tunnel deep into its hidden knowledge to share with us I know I will be here to read it!
Really superb content. I think you also caused me to once again admire Thranduil, the Only significant Elven leader who held his kingdom without a magical Ring of Power! I think this reality makes him even formidable. As Lee Pace so succinctly pointed out, Thranduil is an Elf with dungeons. This says volumes about his nature and how he held his Kingdom together if you stop and think about it. Interestingly, nowhere is Thranduil ever called a tyrant-king or a dictator, or is it even hinted that he used force against anything other than the Mordor filth creeping through Mirkwood.In the light of your information, it is impossible to fathom the pain he must have experienced remembering when his land was Greenwood and the happier times before the coming of the Sorcerer and the corruption of his domain.
There is one that did fade. Arwin. Didn't Elrond say that the "light of the Valur is/has left you. " And yet Galadriel used so much of her "Fea " resisting the one ring that she "diminished " immediately and had no choice but to return to the west.
She may have faded, but I think it's mentioned in the books that she laid down and died like a mortal woman, I don't know if it's different, but I think her spirit disappeared too.
Yes, as S.G said, Arwen was half elven so she could choose to become mortal and pass on as one, instead of being immortal and having to go to Valinor or diminish. She did have more choices it seems. And her father had chosen immortality. But even being mortal, she would live much longer then Aragorn, so she had to watch him grow old and die:
If i remember, she passed on what grace she had to frodo and perhaps this is what enabled him to go west. He essentially takes her place in the west. Sam of course can’t be contained lol. Also i might be confusing this part with the movie which shouldn’t in any way be referenced. One extra thing i see artists and the movies and all other such get wrong; the elves that go west have beheld the light of Aman and this changes them. They appear to “glow” from within. The Sindar, the grey elves are darker etc. They never stood before the light, the tree Telperion and as such should not have that inner glow the High Elves do.
Very interesting - Tolkien had a lifetime of thinking this all out it seems - and from the reading the books I gathered a deep deep sadness about life - perhaps something like the groaning of all creation Paul talks about in Romans 8. Thank you for this considered analysis
wow didnt realize how much of an alegory the elves were for adam and eve. perfect creations living in a perfect garden, but were tainted and cast out to the corrupted word and corrupted by original sin. they always wanted to go back but cant. its like the elves are being called back to eden.
Michael Simkins not sure where atheist or agnostic came from? anyway i personally believe that getting thrown out of eden was due to the great floods washing them them away during the melting of glaciers. since where we think the gardens are located would be in the gulf of persia. eating the fruit was mans gaining the knowledge to work the land and grow food for themselves, not what just god provided via scavenging via oasis spots. and the middle east was pretty hostile land compared to the oasis spots with huge rivers all around like the gulf of persia would have been
@@michaelsimkins7078 The apple contained the knowledge of good and evil, not scientific or intellectual knowledge. That is why they covered themselves afterwards from a sense of shame. They lost their innocence.
@@braemtes23 It was knowledge of self and birth of individuality. Of right to choose. It has nothing to do with good or evil. That's implying naked body is evil, which is absurd.
@@sandelic1 Genesis Chapter 3 And the eyes of both of them were opened and they perceived themselves to be naked....And the Lord God made for Adam and his wife, garments of skins, and clothed them......And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil.... God himself stated that it was the knowledge of good and evil, so you can take it up with him.
@@braemtes23 Quoting is not understanding, obviously. But it is expected. You take Genesis literally, that any serious study of religion would laugh at. And dear, 'God' said nothing. Bible was written by ancient shepherds who thought lightning was act of God.
the Rings kept Rivendell and Lothlorien free of taint and the same as they were in the First and Second Ages. After their powers died with Sauron, they became ordinary places Elves do not feel alive in. When Arwen dies the entire forest of Lothlorien is abandoned, despite being "the heart of Elvendom on Earth". Rivendell is mostly empty, with most of Elrond's household like Gildor, Glorfindel and Erestor joining him at the Havens.
The elves are leaving Middle Earth even before Frodo has fulfilled his task. This means they know or feel that Frodo will succeed, meaning that they have to leave because of the dimishing power of the elven rings.
Galadriel said something like that, but it never made sense to me. The elves were powerful magical beings before Sauron gave them rings, so I don't see why they would be entirely dependent on them? Especially in that Lothlorien is filled with life and magic coming directly through its connection to the the Earth spirit. I always felt that the elves were ditching the mortals on Middle Earth because of how little faith they had in anyone stopping the rise of Sauron.
Actually, the Noldor knew that the Ring-Bearer would either A: Succeed, or B: fail, in which case Sauron would only be defeated by them staying & becoming copies of him.
@Logan Byrd Or the Noldor could choose to stay & fight Sauron, possibly even using the One Ring. & would most likely win, but corrupt themselves even more by doing so.
not neceesarily, like what in the video said, there were different reasons, those who've been to Valinor are being called back (feeling the need to return), and those who were born earlier who had the taint of Morgoth's were already feeling weary..the elves were known to already departing way before the ring was presented in Rivendell, and Elrond did not show signs he knew about Frodo carrying it.
@@rminkof If the ring went back to Sauron then there was nothing the elves could do to defeat him. They were already too weak and few in number. PLUS the kingdoms of men were small and weak as well. The decision was to go into the West & not help fight or stay, help fight, and if the ring fell to Sauron still they would die fighting.
Beautiful.. What stuck with me the most was "Imagine you are immortal, and yet, everything around you isn't". I used to envy elves, but this puts things in a whole new light.
If the Elves stay in Middle-earth, they will fade away. They belong in Valinor, the Blessed Realm, which since the Fall of Numenor in 3319 Second Age (3141 years before the destruction of the Ring and the final fall of Sauron) has not been part of the world, & can therefore be reached only by Elven-ship. If the Noldorin Elves AKA High Elves had not rebelled & left Valinor, as told in the Silmarillion, they would not be subject to fading. By the time of Sauron’s passing in 3019 Third Age, the Noldorin Elves had been in Middle-earth for 6,460 Years of the Sun, in decline all the time, because they returned to Middle-earth before they were meant to.
Gilgamesh ,the treasure hunter The short answer: no-one knows. Tolkien’s ideas about the post mortem state of the Elves seem much more developed & worked out than his ideas about the post mortem state of Men.
I always find it enjoyable when clarity is presented from so many aspects of a story. Thanks for taking the time to research and present a concise explanation. I wrote when the first movie came out that a generation was lucky to have one classic, we've had several.
Excellent video! If I may add my own two cents: "Fading" is also known as "world weariness". It is the reverse (but with the same results) as when a mortal is forced to live an immortal life, such as by wearing one of the Rings of Power, as seen with the Ringwraiths or Gollum. "Butter spread over too much bread." The Elves outside of Valinor feel this stretching and tension increasing the longer they remain in Middle-earth, which is why they began the Rings of Power project, an attempt to recreate the bliss and timelessness of Valinor on earth so they could remain there without pain or threat of fading.
Addendum: While the Elves could find peace in the presence of the Valar, the Powers themselves no longer had a similar respite. For the Two Trees were to the Valar what the Rings of Power were to the Elves...a renewable spiritual energy source. Without the Two Trees the Valar will eventually (in ten thousand centuries) succumb to world weariness. It is in this distant twilight future, when the Valar have grown weary and their watch on the Doors of Night slept, that Melkor learns how to break the Doors and returns to bring about the Dagor Dagorath, the End of Days. "For the Elves die not till tile world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return. But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. *Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers (the Valar) shall envy.* But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope. Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it." - The Silmarillion "Thus spoke Mandos in prophecy, when the Valar sat in judgement in Valinor and the rumour of his word was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers have grown weary, Morgoth, the Black Foe of the World, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of the Night out of the Timeless Void; and all shall be darkness, for the sun he will turn to black, and the moon will no longer shed his light.. But the Host of Valinor shall descend upon him as a searing flame, white and terrible. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day, Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eönwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the world; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the Children of Húrin and all fallen Men be avenged. "Thereafter shall the Earth be broken and remade, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Feanor shall surrender them willingly and Yavanna will rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the light shall go out over all the world. *In that light the Valar will grow young again*, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Ilúvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Túrin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar." - The Later Quenta Silmarillion
Thanks Mate! Also I appreciate your contribution, I think it's awesome when viewers add their own part to make a video or the information around it more wholesome! :)
yet another amazing video!! The last few minutes were amazing to watch and you made me really understand the burden inmortallity carry's. Keep up this amazing work!!
Holy shit. You just explained this better than anyone I've ever seen. This may sound cliche, but finally understanding this age old question really makes me see Tolkien's work in an even better light than I did before. There's just so much beauty and depth in this world he created, and reading about it on a wiki can only give you so much. Thank you!
The elves are so much more beautiful, purer, majestic,elegant, over all, so much more amazing then mankind. Yes...? Thank you for the wonderful video. 🙏🏽😊🕊😌
Well I really did enjoy your video, but one small thing. Everything that Melkor did, happened exactly as it should be. The world whas never intended to be perfect and symmetrical. That is something that the Valar never understood, but Melkor did, at least in the beginning, before he went down hill with his nihilistic craziness.
That's possible, though why will Arda be perfected at the end? Like why make Middle-Earth go through so much trouble if at the end of the day you'll eventually perfect it? It just would seem a bit odd, on Eru's part
GeekZone How dare you questioning the Almighty!! Well joke aside, the entire creation mythology of Middle_Earth has it's base on Christianity, therefore the explanation as to why the second Creation is going to be better, is fairly similar. It's a test. Who's worthy and who's not to participate in the second Song. Key words, Dagor Dagorath!
@TheAncientAstronomer What happened was not predestined. Morgoth was not destined to be evil, all the children of Eru had free will, it was not destiny that made him evil it was his own choices. The world was in fact supposed to be perfect in the beginning but due to Morgoth’s interference things didn’t happen like they were supposed to, that is why the second music exists, so that the world can be reborn the way it was supposed to be.
as always a huge load of information, super nice. i think there are still elves at first arwen and legolas and then also the mirkwood elves in general. but Lothlorien and secret vally would be left alone allso gondolin the havencity would be empty. i think of thranduil as someone who would stay in the mirkwood until he dies and that he has a very straong hand on his fellow elves so that the most mirkwood elves would stay, withou galadriel and elrond their elven kingdoms would go too, i think they are too much of an idol for the "normal" elves so they would follow them everywhere.
Legolas does go to the undying lands later on with Gimli though. It's really hard to predict, I think it would depend a lot on whether the elves that remained in Middle-Earth would still know how to reach Valinor, because I think once they start to fade significantly, very few would actively choose to remain there!
well thats rigth, but i remember frodo saying "Bilbo you have a great honor, to go with the last ships to the undying land" or very similiar so if there would be elves remainig they would be trapped (because if the elves were able to leave middle earth than it wouldn't be the last ship, okay it is maybe just the last ship bilbo could get on befor he dies.
Perhaps because it was made by Cirdan the shipwright. However, later on we're told that Legolas made a boat and took Gimli along to the undying lands :)
helmut helmlos Very good comment about Thranduil staying, except for the opposite reason. He rules a people who never wanted to sail west, according to Tolkien's own worda, unless they are seduced by the sight of the sea as poor Legolas was.
I believe, some of their children, perhaps, mixed with Men, might be still around. And even some faded, therefore invisible elves, too. Thank you, and be blessed for such a great work. You;re helping us to understand our past.
I believe that the fire of ones spirit should be interpreted as the age right before adulthood, when one has such a great will and valiant strength that they have the desire to fight corruption and accomplish good. Such is the age when the spirit overtakes the body and gives it power and vitality that practically nothing can conquer. I saw a picture of that elf with a sword and felt inspired with this knowledge.
+GeekZone - So, what do you think happened when Arwen and Aragorn married? - to Arwen? She was beginning to fade already, but it seemed: If all she hoped for - the Kingship of Aragorn, the defeat of Sauron, and the reign of goodness - with Evil being destroyed - for the most part - not entirely? For it does say Sauron poured Much of his power and malice into the ring - but not all of it - he may be greatly weakened - but not completely destroyed? The evil is greatly diminished - but will creep back into the world little by little? (she saw the prophecy of their child) - the land was 'healed' by the defeat of Sauron, with the destruction of the 1 ring of power, and peace, now reigns in middle earth. What will happen to Arwen, now? What will happen to Aragorn and Arwen's child? Half-elf and half-human? Will they cease fading and will some good power protect them, now?
Arwen chose to become human, so their child would be fully human just like Elros' children were, though probably prettier and even longer lived than Aragorn.
Arwen's fate is told in Appendix A of TLOTR. She returns to Lorien after Aragorn dies and passes away there. She leaves behind their son Eldarion and daughters.
I'm a 38 year old man and therefore presumably an adult, but I giggled out loud every time he said "Morgoth's taint". Also I really enjoy these videos.
Great video. Liked your look on things very much. We know that Frodos ship was not the last. Legolas leaves and is allowed to take Gimly with him. And Sam leaves as well for he also bore the ring even if it was for only a few hours.
It was also suggested that the elves were a little envious of the "Gift of Men" and what it meant. Ironically the Men of Numenor coveted the immortality of the Elves
Immortality to me seems quite boring. Everything would be pointless eventually. What do you do after you've done literally every possible (And impossible because you'd find a way) thing you could do? Well, nothing, as there's nothing to do. Most human beings rather not sit around doing nothing all day.
Very interesting idea. I am reading Silmarillion once again and I noticed one thing which can proof this theory as well. When Feanor and the most of Noldor were leaving Valinor, they saw someone, they believed it was Mandos. He spoke the judgement of the Valar. I quote: "And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken"
I just want to say, that your videos are great and I watch and enjoy every single one of them. Also I am very impressed of how much you know about "The lord of the rings". These facts, which you are explaining, are real fascinating and give me a deep emotional understanding of this wonderful world Tolkien created. Thanks a lot! And please keep making more of these videos. Greetings from Germany!
I find it ironic that it is through Sauron's essence through the one ring that the few remaining Elven strongholds like Rivendell could continue to exist and that destroying the One meant the end of Elven kind on Middle Earth.
Hey, I really missed your epic videos. I keep checking my subscription for your videos. And can you please do a video of king theoden. Or about Rohan which is my favourite kingdom. But you don't have to. I will still love your videos like always and forever my friend.
Thanks man! I've recently made one on Baldor which is essentially a story of a Rohan Prince, but I'll be doing more videos on their kingdom in the future for sure! :)
And here I am thinking that the elves were just bored of middle earth, that's why they're leaving. Thanks for the video. Now I understand it. Heck, this makes me want to watch the trilogy all over again.
I used to think elves where just ass's but after seeing this I see that they are just being easier on themselves and everyone else so in the end them leaving is a mercy for everyone which I find is beautiful, sad ,and brave
@Kind Citizen In LOTR they do. The way human mortality works is that when we die, we are reunited with Eru Illuvitar the creator. Therefore, our fate isn't connected to arda. When arda will be destroyed at the end of time, so will the elves but humanity will live on and a place will be reserved for us so that we may sing another song of creation alongside the creator.
Wow Melkor have indeed disliked this! - Damn mate this is very good work, I don't like the elven race myself, but this vedio is very interesting with theories and what you have found! :) And to what you sad about the elven immortality is true. If you ask me the elves are envious of the humans as they/(we) live every day to its fullness with every moment that is precious, knowing this day or the day to tomorrow could be ending for them/us.
I'm dyslexic... So just rub that in my face... you're not the first or the last, to do so... - I can't help it. I have struggled with it all my life, 23 years... But do you know what, it's people like YOU! Who are wrong.. I don't let it stop me, nay will I nor. - Say what you will to make you feel better.
Hello from Canada! This was the first video that I have seen from you. It was excellent! I look forward to watching previous ones and can't wait until the next one. Thank you.
Yes, he's probably one of the oldest elves Alive and was showing some signs of age (like being one of the few Elves that had a beard). Despite this even he hadn't faded yet, which does show at what an old age this must occur!
@@s.g.3898 Cirdan was older, he just didnt see the two trees in Valinor because he followed his duty commanded by the Valar and stayed in Beleriand/Middle-Earth. When Mithrandir/Gandalf arrives in Middle-Earth in the Grey Havens in the Third Age (Arda being reshaped already), Cirdan give him Narya and prophetise to him that he will leave Middle-Earth with the last ship. Galadriel is roughly 3000 years younger than him, but she did went to Valinor and then back to Middle-Earth after the first Kin-slaying of Feanor, although she didnt participate in it (and thats why she's able to go back i think btw)
GeekZone ... I love your videos and really appreciated this one. I especially liked your reminder of the more subtle reasons elves stayed in Middle Earth, by quoting The Silmarillion where Tolkien explains the prestige elves enjoy by remaining there, and their understanding they'd lose their elevated status as the "highest people" and would fall to the "bottom of the hierarchy" should they migrate to the West. This is especially true of the Noldor since we know Turgon and Galadriel desired to lead and influence their kindred by ruling their own kingdoms. I like your overall thought where you have arrived at the concept that elves’ hröar fade over time and are overcome by their spirit. If we were to see a Tolkien elf today, we’d surly mistake it for an angel. With deep respect, I noticed the title “Why Must the Elves Leave Middle-Earth?” is not answered here. They don’t have to leave because they’re fading. They are being drawn home, because this is their fate. They understand, at differing levels, with the passing of the Third Age the Dominion of Men is upon them. The wisest beings in Middle Earth know this and are planning the transition (for ill or good). The more common Sindarin and Sylvan elves feel the pull of the ocean in their hearts and are compelled deeply. A thought I had as I watched this video was your emphasis on the words "fade" and "fading" and less on the concept of "diminish" or "diminishing." Tolkien puts more emphasis on the fact the elves are diminishing in the Third Age, rather than fading. By this we are shown the actual number of their kind reducing greatly as they are each pulled toward the sea and the High Road to the West, which has the effect of reducing the stature of the powerful elves such as Elrond and Galadriel, as they have fewer subjects they can influence. Either by departing Middle Earth, or by death, the elves’ knowledge and magic is diminishing or becoming less. This decrease is magnified for the wisest and most powerful elves as their individual power is lessened when the rings they possess lose their potency following the destruction of the One Ring. In fact, this is specifically what Galadriel refers to when she says, "“I pass the test, I will diminish, and go into the West and remain Galadriel.” Although the title may be a little off, I watched the entire video and it inspired me to write to you. (I don’t write many comments.) Keep up the great work. I love your videos! BC
is melkor weaker on earth or something? ive always been confused on how the greatest valar would almost die in battles with lesser spirits such as ungoliant and fingolfin, he always has to get ballied out by his balrogs, could you do a video on this cause it seems all the major spirits like valar and ainur seem so much weaker on the earth than they should be.like Gandalf couldn't fight off the wargs when the company got out of the mines without having the eagles help
alexshellnot The weakness of Melkor is a result of all of his hideous work. For all he created he put a part of his divine power in it. Being the Orks or the Dragons or Trolls. He even put his power into the earth her self. The more of his power he shared,the weaker he got,to the point where a Elf could wound him seven times ( Fingolfin ). But even so he was still powerful enough, that all of the Valar where needed in order to defeat him. As for Gandalf and the Istari, they had specific orders from the Valar and especially Eonwe NOT to use the divine/ angelic powers but to act through consolations and guidance. The appeard weakness whas not of their choice.
I wanted to let you know, that i really appreciate your videos, whil reading the silmarillion, these videos help me to understand some of the lore more easily and more clearly!
Some very interesting material here that I wasn’t aware of from Tolkien’s letters. I hadn’t considered the idea of the elves literally fading, I had always taken this to be metaphorical. But yes it makes sense, I think Tolkien would have envisaged a remnant of the elves remaining in middle earth, perhaps the wood elves or some of the moriquendi (I think that’s right...) and gradually fading and diminishing with time. Perhaps they became the ‘ghosts’ and ‘fairies’ of our imagination once their physical forms dissolved. Great video!
These videos are awesome! I’ve discovered it’s actually pretty hard to do videos like this through what I’ve seen because there’s just so much backstory and information to everything that is scattered throughout the timeline that people have a hard time putting it simply, in a way that makes sense and is not too complicated and is not an hour long. You do a very good job of keeping it as simple as it can be not to mention the art you have on your videos, I don’t know where the fuck you found that shit but it’s dope. I’m glad I found your channel
off topic, but they talk about in the hobbit that when dragons amase a hoard that the taint that treasure with a "dragon sickness" and that it was what was affecting the dwarfs to get greedy in the movie. So bilbo takes his percentage of the look and some of it goes to the laketown survivors. did the dragon sickness affect anyone after the events of the book?
Calli Clark The " dragon sickness " thing is a movie plot, in the books the only sickness is the unhealthy fixation with gold. How much of an influence a dragon may have upon it it's left more or less unanswered.
str81100 well i thought the rings of power the dwarfs had were partly influential in the hoarding tendencies. wiki says that the dragon sickness thing was also referred in the story of fram of the eotheod. he slew the dragon scatha and behaved like thorin in the movies. maybe that is where they got it from?
Possibly, though the films greatly exaggerated Thorin's greed. Any anger he had stemmed from not finding the Arkenstone, and he was simply being a stubborn dwarf when he refused to give up some of his gold to the Elves and the Men of Lake Town ( though he said he would give them so treasure in due time once the Elves depart).
Calli Clark That is true,the rings of power that the Dwarves got, did not corrupt them, in the sence that Sauron intended, but they did increased their greed for treasure and gold. Some more then others. It whas always my conviction,that the dragon sickness, whas more of a comparison of character,the something literal. Dragons had an obsesiv greed and lust for treasure, therefore someone with the same obsession could easily be said, he had the dragon sickness.
Calli Clark there is no "dragon sickness" in the book. Please cleanse the movie from your mind first. What really happens is that because of the sheer amount of gold, Thorin and co are somewhat left in awe and amazement at it all. Thorin is also being stubborn when Bard asks for some gold, as he feels it only belonged to his clan. Bilbo is the only member of the party that sees beyond the gold and gems, as he has no emotional connection to the Mountain. Even in the end, Bilbo gives up his 14th for the Dale-Men and none of the others do. The Master in Laketown is arguably similarly greedy, as he immediately takes off with gold Bard gave him.
Very nice video. I didn't know the elves were this complex. They are in fact attracted to both middle Earth and the west lands, to the point that the Middle Earth almost sounds better, but is also poisonous and filled of sad experiences, that it is meant to be left in time. The fading is also another interesting aspect. Elves are generally portraited as holy all around, but they are in fact a cast in a conflicting form, a holy spirit on a tainted body, deemed to fade away.
1:30 - Why does Tolkien differentiate them from 'Wild Elves'? Instead, he groups Wild Elves with Men and Dwarves, thereby making Wild Elves their own race. This almost implies Wild Elves can stay in Middle Earth and not feel this calling back to Valinor like their 'Higher' brethren? Tolkien's work is too amorphous/nebulous in cases like this.
many Wild Elves became Orcs anyway, while those who remained free, like what the video said, would feel weary because of the taint that Morgoth left over creation....and they were all called before, only the WIld Elves refused at first, since they were still young....
It's the price of immortality and reincarnation. That they fade as nothing stays as it was and they grow weary of Arda, only in Valinor does nothing fade or change. It's why they consider final death a gift bestowed on Men.
A glaring omission in this video is The Doom of Mandos, quoted here: “Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar left from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all who follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever." "Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death’s shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken."
Well, look at that, being genocidal imperialists is a bad thing, apparently! But yes, with all due respect to the video-makers erudition, he fails to distinguish Noldor elves from all the other elfin dispensations.
The analogy about being immortal while everything else around you is mortal, and watching it all die over and over again, reminded me of a scene in Doctor Who, where he makes a similar point.
+GeekZone an excellent question. Tolkien himself address is it in the invaluable appendices of the third book of the trilogy Return of the King. Gandalf reminisces how Thorin Oakenshield's kinsman Dain was still able to wield an axe. and then he muses on what it would have been like if Smaug had not been slain. If I recall, he sums it up in one ghastly phrase. "Dragon fire, swords, and night in Lorien." or words to that effect. But I'm stealing your thunder. You go ahead and make that video. You are a far superior Tolkien scholar compared to me.
"The Dragon Sauron could use to great effect". The Dwarves and Men of Dale were the only armies in the North available to stop the Easterlings and Misty Mountain Orcs. Without Erebor and the prosperity it brought no one would have been there to fight
Kane Rises Gandalf foresaw both the abandonment of the One Ring from Gollum and it's finding and acquisition by Bilbo. Gandalf knew that only a hobbit -- being the only creature in Middle Earth that was so innocent, pastoral, guileless and true -- to safely handle and withstand the corrupting power of the Ring. Gandalf also knew that a dragon under the sway of Sauron would be invincible in the coming Battle for Middle Earth. So Gandalf presciently directed a two-pronged mission of directing Bilbo to the Lonely Mountain to find the Ring and aid the Dwarves in their quest to destroy Smaug.
They have to leave because "Melkor element" on middle earth damages their spirits. Middle earth supposed to be a living land for Elves but Melkor somehow cursed the lands of Middle Earth and appearently this Melkor element only damages Elves. Therefore they must go to Valinor where Melkor did not inject curse on. Middle Earth was not supposed to have 'fading' effect on Elves but its Melkor's dirty work.
thefunder1 that isn't the reason at all, Melkor has nothing to do with. The Elves do not belong in middle earth is why, they came to middle earth in rebellion.
It is not only to the elves that the sea has a strange pull. Tolkien wrote elsewhere "It is the doom of men that they will hearken to the voice of the sea, and it will awaken in them a longing for they know not what."
Q: Why must the elves leave Middle-Earth?
A: To get to the other side.
I'm a year late but you already stole my joke XD
No mames !
😂😂😂😂 one year later but Thanks your comment made me laugh.
obv for fitness, just like the chicken
This is the way
I do not think people have to imagine what it is like for elves to have to live such long lives and see those they know pass while they remain. I think they can understand if they consider their pets. How many dogs will you develop a close relationship with in your lifetime. Raise it, care for it, tend to it when it is sick, and ultimately say goodbye to it. That is probably why the elves seem to be full of spirit in the First and Second Ages but by the Third seem detached to mortals. It is not that they do not care, it may in fact be the opposite, that they care deeply but only rarely make their interventions noticeable.
As a current and previous dog-owner, I've got to admit that's really accurate; Well said!
Are you saying that the men of the Fourth Age are lacking in contrast to their forefathers? Was it not their forefathers who surrendered their souls to the Dark Lord for want of power? I think that the arc of the story is the opposite of your opinion.
Nice idea, remind me of vampire in Anne Rice's novels.
"Are you saying that the men of the Fourth Age are lacking in contrast to their forefathers?" It's established in the Silmarillion that the first men were of similar stature to that of Elves. So yes, they've been reduced, likely due to the marring of Arda by Morgoth.
the world itself is becoming mortal, and the Elves cannot survive in such a world for long. Their spirits are too powerful and lives too long to endure such a place.
I think Galadriel mentions fading well: "Yet if you succeed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlórien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweep it away. We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten."
From the point of view where Tolkien' desired to create a mythology for Britain, the idea of the fairy being a faded elf is interesting to ponder.
Well that was his point if I am right @Dr._Strangelove he wanted to created something for Britain like the mythology of vikings and ancient greeks.
In a nutshell, the reason was that: Elves must go to the Undying Lands because there nothings fades, the same reason why the love of Aragorn & Arwen is painful is because Argorn is human and will die. Basically elves are just tired of being hurt.
Makes you understand why Elrond wanted her to leave with him
Yes but to are is also apply the same question as her father , to which kindred they want to belong to and she chose a mortal life, as been and Lothian
But didn’t Arwen give up her immortality for Aragorn? Might be me remembering wrong but still
She did give up her immortality yet she will still age slowly than humans do in that sense she did out live him at the end
You know when you are an elf and you have eternal life the idea of going into war is understandably not worth the risk. Would also explain why elves are so proficiently skilled with the bow
That's the Wood Elves, the Noldor are more into swords and armor. And they have eternal life whether they're killed in battle or not because they'll eventually be reincarnated after their spirits rest for a while in the Halls of Mandos in Valinor (although Tolkien said that being killed was enormously traumatic for them and not something they'd take lightly the way, say, the immortals in the Highlander movies and series do.)
@@brucetucker4847 so those that die eventually end up in Valinor regardless. Seems like the easiest way to travel back home.
@@placeholdername3818 Even for immortal Elves violent death is horribly traumatic, and some of them spend eons as disembodied spirits in the Halls of Mandos before they're able to be reincarnated.
@@placeholdername3818 For the Noldor, anyway, that would be a home they had rejected. Their return was, in part, a pilgrimage of penitents.
They had millenia to practice. That's also why they were such artisans.
They basically have a deep depression and the only cure is leaving middle earth.
Naomi Winters and the only cure is more cow bell
Tolkien Elves are simply very very very emotional.
And if we see the influence of the bible on the works of Tolkien, then we see that only when the exiled Jews leave the lands of their exile and return home, will they be an "eternal people," matched to an eternal land.
Or rather they will turn invisible and wraith-like if they stay. Fate worse than death in many cases.
@@matiasluukkanen7718 if they had saurons rings of power
Elves are my favorite race in Arda. I really wish the elves could have somehow stopped Fading and stayed in Middle Earth. Them leaving made Middle Earth feel less like the high fantasy I love in Silmarillion.
Thats because the world becomes the world we have today. Where men become dominant.
Kinda funny if it would be real. Those elves and such would be looking back at earth and laugh what kinda shithole humans have made for themselves.
I feel you 😭
@@davidamajako961 Maybe some youngsters would try to go halfway and see all the despair, deaths and corruption and just decide to turn back. I can imagine the expression :D
@@davidamajako961 I don't think they would laugh. I think they would feel a deep sadness.
Tolkien actually said the same thing regarding writing sequels. He felt like it was not high fantasy anymore.
You said "Morgoths Taint" and my inner 12 year old laughed
Dusk Dawg okay boomer
I stopped the video and scrolled down just to make sure someone said something about it to restore my faith in humanity🤣
Hot. I mean hahaha so funny XD
Astavyastataa I don’t get it either, unless thats a sexual reference. LOL.
😂😂😂 you're naughty!
I think this relates to Tolkiens war experience. Your friends die young and you grow older.
anne rice undoubtedly took the sorrow to inspire how her vampires die out. "Do you know how few vampires have the stamina for immortality? How quickly they perish of their own will? The world changes. We do not. Therein lies the irony that finally kills us." -Armand
I'm not familiar with that, but it's pretty interesting! :)
interview with the vampire (the vampire chronicles)
Lol i just wrote the same thing in another comment
Anne Rice is one of my favorite authors.
That was a good film, shame that the oldest living vampire in that world was only 400 years old
“Morgoth is the first, and the greatest dark lord.” It’s accurate statements like that that always make me yearn for a big screen appearance of him.
8:22 Oh? the stars are untouched by Morgoth's evil, you say?
"There is light and beauty up there, that no shadow can touch"
brings an extra layer of meaning to Sam's line in the movie, adapted from the passage in the book.
"There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Sam`s bearing a relic of Varda may also play into this.
Little do they know that Cthulhu is watching them from beyond the stars laughing at the irrelevance of elven and human sorrow.
Isn't it amazing how little references in the books refer to something else in the Silmarillion. Tolkien was amazing.
Being a Tolkienist for years, I can say that your analizing skill is astonishing and mezmorizing, the theme of dualism (two sources of nature- the soul and external body) is a debatable philosophical issue that Tolkien used in a very beautiful manner.
I am afraid that not all Elves went to Valinor. In the chapter "Of Men" of the Silmarillion, Tolkien wrote: "In after days, when because of the triumph of Morgoth Elves and Men became estranged [that is what we see in LotR], as he most wished, those of the Elven-race that lived still in Middle-earth waned and faded, and Men usurped the sunlight. Then the Quendi [the Elves] wandered in the lonely places of the great lands and the isles, and took to the moonlight and the starlight, and to the woods and caves, becoming as shadows and memories, save those who ever and anon set sail into the West and vanished from Middle-earth."
And Galadriel seems to say that the fate of the Lingerers will be even worse: "We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten." It looks like that not only their hröar will fade, but that their fëar will become dimmer as well.
What is hroar and fear
it looks like an explanation of fading myths in real life
@@thunderplunder1013 watch the video he explains it
I wonder if this is a nod to the way the belief in faeries and elves etc faded in Western society. There are definitely still people who believe in them but most people nowadays do not.
All the non-human peoples declined in Middle-Earths 4th age. Noldor left because they were not supposed to be there to begin with.
I love the lore of the Eldar. The Lord of the Rings' universe is so beautifully woven together, and it almost has a tone of sorrow throughout, especially when it comes to the elves. I also just genuinely feel like Tolkien's elves are divine beings, and everything they do is perfect and epic and amazing, blah blah blah. I could go on forever, but the writing speaks for itself.
Dude, I am way impressed. quoting Tolkien, you have explained the Christian doctrine of the Fall From Grace. "Arda Marred" is what it's all about and sums it up perfectly.
Thanks man, that means a lot to me! :)
Yes, one can read a lot of Christian theology into the saga of Middle Earth. Eru Illuvatar is God, the other Valarie are the archangels, Morgoth is Lucifer, whose rebellion corrupted the earth and everything in it, etc. The trilogy is, IMHO, one of the masterpieces of Western literature.
@@GeekZoneMT Super packed with information, insights, and breathtaking artwork. Great job! :)
I'd rather not. Tolkiens universe is more believable then the Christian god
@@ToBeSchooled god os more real than you can understand .
"The fire of their spirit..." That makes me think of my father. He died young, at 59 01/11/2016. When I was young he always seemed larger than life. Much like some of the characters in these stories. He was a boyscout, navy man, scout master, talented musician, electronic tech, teacher, government employee of the spaces porogram during the height of its' popularity in the 1990's. He was my hero, I chased him for so long, not catching him until the birth of my daughter on his birthday. They were so close. I miss him him so very much.
Thank you for sharing that with us melissa, he sounds like an amazing man
melissa jackson bless you.
Your welcome and he was.
Get over yourself, dude!
He's at peace in Valinor
Man Geek this was such a deep and beautiful video thanks a lot for making it just like I find it sad that Elves and Dwarfs were never meant to get along I also find it sad that Elves had to leave Middle Earth if only Morgoth never tanted Arda with his dark influence but then again I guess the Elves were always meant to be in Valinor and were always meant to stay there till I watched this video I always thought it would be so awesome to be immortal but now I know that like everything it has its positives and its negatives anyway as I always say loved this video and keep up the great work! :)
Thanks man!! :)
GeekZone Your welcome anytime!!! :)
While Melkor’s intention was to mar Arda his disharmony only served to increase the beauty of it. At least this is how Eru Ilúvatar saw things.
Luke Skywalker the 2nd it goes deeper, this is just a sip of water in an ocean
Aman and Middle Earth came to be because of the changes Melchor made during his return and war with the Valars destroying the lamps and Amaren and splitting Arda into continents, one of which is Aman where Valinor is.
Arwen chose fading over her love for Aragorn. She literally went back to Lothlorian after his death and died amidst the trees where her grandparents had lived for millennia.
HI CAN U NOT? 😭😭😭😭
@@ohifonlyx33 can I not what? It's in the books that Tolkien wrote. I'm not inventing a new.story lol
@@krystasites9034 Okay. Tolkien needs to stop then. And then you going around telling everyone without a warning. Anyways I'm just being extra about it cause it's sad and I didn't know that before.
She chose humanity, not fading.
@@rminkof No. She chose to be mortal. She didn't choose humanity, thats like saying "a dog chose to be a cat". These are different races. Anyway, mortal elves still live a lot longer than humans, even Dunedain like Aragorn, so @Krysta reetz is actually right about Arwen "suiciding". She went to Lorien and spent an entire winter there, all alone (although for an elf a winter must feel like a few days for us), then she laid down at a spot where she and Aragorn once had a romantic moment (Cerin Amroth) and died, while their first son became King of Gondor. Galadriel and her Husband Celeborn were actually her grandparents. Here is the link to a forum where it is clarified and the actual book passage is cited: www.quora.com/In-The-Lord-of-the-Rings-does-Arwen-become-mortal-or-is-she-immortal-She-is-able-to-choose-to-live-a-mortal-life-but-what-exactly-does-that-mean-Does-that-mean-she-is-capable-of-dying-Does-the-story-of-L%C3%BAthien-explain-anything
When you mentioned elves "fading" , I'm reminded of the Nazgul , Gollum, and Bilbo - the rings of men and the One Ring stretched their lives until they are only shadows of themselves. I believe it is both a mockery and a mirror of what elves experience.
Hence why the ringbearers go West, too.
at least Bilbo managed to stay lucid and free spirited into old age despite being exhausted by the Ring. The Elves fading seems to be exactly like the Nazgul.
@@rminkof the Ringbearers were invited to Valinor. Frodo was tormented by his three wounds, Bilbo was nearing the end of his life and Sam came after living for 80 years, the best life any Hobbit could. The Ring has no effect on them after it is destroyed, but Frodo in particular feels empty and sad.
@@SantomPh They're different, the reason why elves fade is that their body cannot handle their spirit no more because of morgoths taint,
Great video and very well researched. Once I read, (don't know if in the books or on some forum) that men envied the elves for their immortality, while elves envied men for not having to endure the slow decay of time and the grief that it brings. Each race was adamant that Eru favoured their counterparts. To be honest, before delving into Middle Earth lore, I used to think that immortality must be such a great thing to experience. However, once I read most of Tolkien books I was not sure of that anymore.
Yes I think it's from the Finrod writing I mentioned in the video, where Finrod says that Elves might eventually come to envy the mortality of men, and the gift of men that their spirits are not bound to the world of Arda.
Imagine Elrond having to see the decline of his brother's descendants. His twin brother Elros was the first king of Numenor
If reading Tolkien makes you wary of power ( which immortality is but one variant of ), that was very much as intended.
Immortality IS a good thing... Just not in a flawed and broken world.
But those elves who stayed in the undying lands are immortal and don't have to suffer it's downsides.
Not only that they live with benevolent demi-gods, their land remains at peace since the beginning times and the quality of everything there is probably amazing, architecture, art, food will all be of heaven-like quality.
Men have no opt-out for the disadvantages of their "gift" :P
I would add that the Fea of the Elves can be redressed in the Halls of Mandos, so the fading, like death, is not permanent to them. As long as there is Arda, so will they be. This is why you were on point at the end of your video. The timelessness of Valinor (the literal Undying Lands) is more in-tune with the elven nature, so they will be happier there.
Well, Noldor elven nature, anyway.
@@rminkof all elves have the same nature, the urge to return home.
BEST VIDEO YET! I've always wondered about the meaning of "elves fading". The metaphysics of Tolkien's Middle-Earth/Valinor is better made than any other fantasy mythology.
Joe Jessup Thanks Joe! Tolkien truly managed to create a fascinating mythology around it!!
Joe Jessup they get tired of living, so they just give up, and pretty much stay in one place like sitting or laying down for many years till they literally become nothing
This explains a lot about them to me, especially their sadness. Taking the ship to the West. It s a wonderful option though. I wish we mortals had that. Valinor, the Undying Lands.... what a great way to live out the rest of your life. At peace, with nothing to think or worry about. I wish I could 've gone with them.
Christianity
Well, Númenor managed to bugger that up. Though Valinor seems to give one plenty to think about ;)
the Elves warned that for uninvited mortals, Valinor would be too much and they would burn out quickly as Men don't live that long. the Ringbearers and Gimli had invitations from powerful people in Valinor so one presumes they are allowed to be there with protection. It's not heaven, it's elven-home. Men go beyond this to places unknown even to the Elves, who are jealous of this fact.
I am an absolute nerd when it comes to LOTR. I stumbled across your lore vids and not only am I impressed by your insight as well as the literature that you have had the ability to both read and share but you make me look like a novice when it comes to LOTR. I thought I knew a lot but I have learned so much from watching your vids. I would like to thank you for your insight and exposure to more literature and lore. Specifically the notes from Tolkien. Is that a book that can be purchased or were you lucky enough to get your hands on one. Keep up the awesome work.
I would love to share with you that my close friends and I that geek out over LOTR have an annual get together we call Sauron-a-thon. Every year,a couple of times a year,we get together,put a menu together of what we think folks of that time period would have feasted upon and eat,drink, and be merry all while watching all 3 of the extended versions of the fellowship in one day. We tried incorporating the Hobbit movies but they have a much different feel about them and they did not quite fit. Hope you enjoyed the anecdote. Take care.
That sounds cool as hell. Wish I knew enough people to do that.
Sounds like a very long day. What would the length be? 9 hours to watch all 3 movies?
I wish I had such dedicated nerd-friends like you and yours! XD Perhaps you live in the Northwest, and I might travel to your gathering's abode to make merry and view the glory that is LotR with my fellow devotees? ; D
DMT Me too, at least I thought so. I’ve read unfinished tales and the Silmarillion but didn’t know about the 12 volume history of middle earth.I have some reading to do!
DMT - You are a true LOR rock star and worthy of your own elven cloak!
Finally understand why they left...thank you sir.
You're welcome buddy!
I'm sad of the metaphor. Immortal seeing everything passes by...sad
now I know how Robots feel
This is also the existential sadness that each and every human being feels when he faces his own mortality, or that of those whom he loves.
Such haunting and interesting explanations. I have read The Silmarillion twice, the Hobbit once, and have seen all 6 of Peter Jackson's movies several times. My greatest interest has always been about the elves. Thank you for your insight.
I would agree to it.
it's wonderful to know how deep Tolkien went with all in middle earth
When you consider all this it really ups the stakes on the Exile of the Noldor.
It's a far more serious punishment than simply "you can't come home".
Also, when Galadriel rejects the Ring and feels the ban on her return to Valinor lifted, it's a far more powerful moment than it may seem, without knowing the ultimate fate from which she has been reprieved.
Great video.
It's not very often that I come across something that I haven't already learned about when it comes to the Lord of the Rings and its lore; therefore, after I clicked on this video and started listening I was pleasantly surprised to hear information that was new to me. Of course I was well aware about the elves leaving for Valinor and the "fading" that had been mentioned numerous times. What I wasn't aware of was the meaning behind the fading and the separation of body and spirit. Well done on explaining this. This topic is one that I have never had the pleasure to investigate closely so it was very enlightening when it was explained in detail in your video...well done!
Please continue to make videos like this one that explore the details and lore in the dark corners of Tolkien and his works. Too often content creators recycle the same old stories from Tolkien including the same old lore that we are more or less already aware of. If you can find other hidden gems of lore similar to this one and then tunnel deep into its hidden knowledge to share with us I know I will be here to read it!
Thanks man, that really means a lot to me! I hope I manage to keep you entertained! :)
Really superb content. I think you also caused me to once again admire Thranduil, the Only significant Elven leader who held his kingdom without a magical Ring of Power! I think this reality makes him even formidable. As Lee Pace so succinctly pointed out, Thranduil is an Elf with dungeons. This says volumes about his nature and how he held his Kingdom together if you stop and think about it. Interestingly, nowhere is Thranduil ever called a tyrant-king or a dictator, or is it even hinted that he used force against anything other than the Mordor filth creeping through Mirkwood.In the light of your information, it is impossible to fathom the pain he must have experienced remembering when his land was Greenwood and the happier times before the coming of the Sorcerer and the corruption of his domain.
There is one that did fade. Arwin. Didn't Elrond say that the "light of the Valur is/has left you. " And yet Galadriel used so much of her "Fea " resisting the one ring that she "diminished " immediately and had no choice but to return to the west.
She may have faded, but I think it's mentioned in the books that she laid down and died like a mortal woman, I don't know if it's different, but I think her spirit disappeared too.
She was of the half elven
Yes, as S.G said, Arwen was half elven so she could choose to become mortal and pass on as one, instead of being immortal and having to go to Valinor or diminish. She did have more choices it seems. And her father had chosen immortality. But even being mortal, she would live much longer then Aragorn, so she had to watch him grow old and die:
If i remember, she passed on what grace she had to frodo and perhaps this is what enabled him to go west. He essentially takes her place in the west. Sam of course can’t be contained lol. Also i might be confusing this part with the movie which shouldn’t in any way be referenced.
One extra thing i see artists and the movies and all other such get wrong; the elves that go west have beheld the light of Aman and this changes them. They appear to “glow” from within. The Sindar, the grey elves are darker etc. They never stood before the light, the tree Telperion and as such should not have that inner glow the High Elves do.
Very interesting - Tolkien had a lifetime of thinking this all out it seems - and from the reading the books I gathered a deep deep sadness about life - perhaps something like the groaning of all creation Paul talks about in Romans 8. Thank you for this considered analysis
wow didnt realize how much of an alegory the elves were for adam and eve. perfect creations living in a perfect garden, but were tainted and cast out to the corrupted word and corrupted by original sin. they always wanted to go back but cant. its like the elves are being called back to eden.
Michael Simkins not sure where atheist or agnostic came from?
anyway i personally believe that getting thrown out of eden was due to the great floods washing them them away during the melting of glaciers. since where we think the gardens are located would be in the gulf of persia. eating the fruit was mans gaining the knowledge to work the land and grow food for themselves, not what just god provided via scavenging via oasis spots. and the middle east was pretty hostile land compared to the oasis spots with huge rivers all around like the gulf of persia would have been
@@michaelsimkins7078 The apple contained the knowledge of good and evil, not scientific or intellectual knowledge. That is why they covered themselves afterwards from a sense of shame. They lost their innocence.
@@braemtes23
It was knowledge of self and birth of individuality. Of right to choose. It has nothing to do with good or evil. That's implying naked body is evil, which is absurd.
@@sandelic1 Genesis Chapter 3 And the eyes of both of them were opened and they perceived themselves to be naked....And the Lord God made for Adam and his wife, garments of skins, and clothed them......And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil.... God himself stated that it was the knowledge of good and evil, so you can take it up with him.
@@braemtes23
Quoting is not understanding, obviously. But it is expected. You take Genesis literally, that any serious study of religion would laugh at. And dear, 'God' said nothing. Bible was written by ancient shepherds who thought lightning was act of God.
I think the final straw was that their rings of power were no longer working.
Noldor repatriation had been going on for quite a while before then.
Their only mistake was to not make a wall and have valinor pay for it
@@blazingshadow2669 hey now. Some of the valar,i assume are really great people
the Rings kept Rivendell and Lothlorien free of taint and the same as they were in the First and Second Ages. After their powers died with Sauron, they became ordinary places Elves do not feel alive in. When Arwen dies the entire forest of Lothlorien is abandoned, despite being "the heart of Elvendom on Earth". Rivendell is mostly empty, with most of Elrond's household like Gildor, Glorfindel and Erestor joining him at the Havens.
"I don't know why.... it makes me sad."
....Same as our cats and dogs, as humans, their lives are short, to them, seeing one of us die, is a rare occurrence...
The elves are leaving Middle Earth even before Frodo has fulfilled his task. This means they know or feel that Frodo will succeed, meaning that they have to leave because of the dimishing power of the elven rings.
Galadriel said something like that, but it never made sense to me. The elves were powerful magical beings before Sauron gave them rings, so I don't see why they would be entirely dependent on them? Especially in that Lothlorien is filled with life and magic coming directly through its connection to the the Earth spirit. I always felt that the elves were ditching the mortals on Middle Earth because of how little faith they had in anyone stopping the rise of Sauron.
Actually, the Noldor knew that the Ring-Bearer would either A: Succeed, or B: fail, in which case Sauron would only be defeated by them staying & becoming copies of him.
@Logan Byrd Or the Noldor could choose to stay & fight Sauron, possibly even using the One Ring. & would most likely win, but corrupt themselves even more by doing so.
not neceesarily, like what in the video said, there were different reasons, those who've been to Valinor are being called back (feeling the need to return), and those who were born earlier who had the taint of Morgoth's were already feeling weary..the elves were known to already departing way before the ring was presented in Rivendell, and Elrond did not show signs he knew about Frodo carrying it.
@@rminkof If the ring went back to Sauron then there was nothing the elves could do to defeat him. They were already too weak and few in number. PLUS the kingdoms of men were small and weak as well. The decision was to go into the West & not help fight or stay, help fight, and if the ring fell to Sauron still they would die fighting.
Beautiful.. What stuck with me the most was "Imagine you are immortal, and yet, everything around you isn't". I used to envy elves, but this puts things in a whole new light.
which is why anyone who thinks Ar-Pharazon was right is crazy. Humans are LUCKY they don't have to live in a virtually sterile Valinor.
If the Elves stay in Middle-earth, they will fade away. They belong in Valinor, the Blessed Realm, which since the Fall of Numenor in 3319 Second Age (3141 years before the destruction of the Ring and the final fall of Sauron) has not been part of the world, & can therefore be reached only by Elven-ship. If the Noldorin Elves AKA High Elves had not rebelled & left Valinor, as told in the Silmarillion, they would not be subject to fading. By the time of Sauron’s passing in 3019 Third Age, the Noldorin Elves had been in Middle-earth for 6,460 Years of the Sun, in decline all the time, because they returned to Middle-earth before they were meant to.
Before?
@@rminkof Sorry, what are you asking ?
@@rminkof They will return when Morgoth is vanquished permanently.
Where do Men go when they die?
Gilgamesh ,the treasure hunter The short answer: no-one knows. Tolkien’s ideas about the post mortem state of the Elves seem much more developed & worked out than his ideas about the post mortem state of Men.
I always find it enjoyable when clarity is presented from so many aspects of a story. Thanks for taking the time to research and present a concise explanation. I wrote when the first movie came out that a generation was lucky to have one classic, we've had several.
Thanks man, I'm glad you enjoyed it! :) I agree with you about the classics!
"Morgoths taint" sounds like a black metal band
Excellent video! If I may add my own two cents: "Fading" is also known as "world weariness". It is the reverse (but with the same results) as when a mortal is forced to live an immortal life, such as by wearing one of the Rings of Power, as seen with the Ringwraiths or Gollum. "Butter spread over too much bread." The Elves outside of Valinor feel this stretching and tension increasing the longer they remain in Middle-earth, which is why they began the Rings of Power project, an attempt to recreate the bliss and timelessness of Valinor on earth so they could remain there without pain or threat of fading.
Addendum: While the Elves could find peace in the presence of the Valar, the Powers themselves no longer had a similar respite. For the Two Trees were to the Valar what the Rings of Power were to the Elves...a renewable spiritual energy source. Without the Two Trees the Valar will eventually (in ten thousand centuries) succumb to world weariness. It is in this distant twilight future, when the Valar have grown weary and their watch on the Doors of Night slept, that Melkor learns how to break the Doors and returns to bring about the Dagor Dagorath, the End of Days.
"For the Elves die not till tile world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return. But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. *Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers (the Valar) shall envy.* But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope. Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it."
- The Silmarillion
"Thus spoke Mandos in prophecy, when the Valar sat in judgement in Valinor and the rumour of his word was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers have grown weary, Morgoth, the Black Foe of the World, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of the Night out of the Timeless Void; and all shall be darkness, for the sun he will turn to black, and the moon will no longer shed his light.. But the Host of Valinor shall descend upon him as a searing flame, white and terrible. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day, Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eönwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the world; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the Children of Húrin and all fallen Men be avenged.
"Thereafter shall the Earth be broken and remade, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Feanor shall surrender them willingly and Yavanna will rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the light shall go out over all the world. *In that light the Valar will grow young again*, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Ilúvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Túrin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar." - The Later Quenta Silmarillion
Thanks Mate! Also I appreciate your contribution, I think it's awesome when viewers add their own part to make a video or the information around it more wholesome! :)
yet another amazing video!! The last few minutes were amazing to watch and you made me really understand the burden inmortallity carry's. Keep up this amazing work!!
Thanks titus, I really appreciate your kind words! :)
Holy shit. You just explained this better than anyone I've ever seen. This may sound cliche, but finally understanding this age old question really makes me see Tolkien's work in an even better light than I did before. There's just so much beauty and depth in this world he created, and reading about it on a wiki can only give you so much. Thank you!
The elves are so much more beautiful, purer, majestic,elegant, over all, so much more amazing then mankind. Yes...?
Thank you for the wonderful video. 🙏🏽😊🕊😌
& yet, they envy us.
I've listened to a lot of lore videos and yours are by far the best and most logically explained.
Well I really did enjoy your video, but one small thing. Everything that Melkor did, happened exactly as it should be. The world whas never intended to be perfect and symmetrical. That is something that the Valar never understood, but Melkor did, at least in the beginning, before he went down hill with his nihilistic craziness.
That's possible, though why will Arda be perfected at the end? Like why make Middle-Earth go through so much trouble if at the end of the day you'll eventually perfect it? It just would seem a bit odd, on Eru's part
GeekZone How dare you questioning the Almighty!! Well joke aside, the entire creation mythology of Middle_Earth has it's base on Christianity, therefore the explanation as to why the second Creation is going to be better, is fairly similar. It's a test. Who's worthy and who's not to participate in the second Song. Key words, Dagor Dagorath!
Morgoth serves unwillingly ( to quote Tolkien ). The Valar are as surprised as he is at how Arda gets a life of its own.
@TheAncientAstronomer
What happened was not predestined. Morgoth was not destined to be evil, all the children of Eru had free will, it was not destiny that made him evil it was his own choices. The world was in fact supposed to be perfect in the beginning but due to Morgoth’s interference things didn’t happen like they were supposed to, that is why the second music exists, so that the world can be reborn the way it was supposed to be.
This was the most brilliant explanation of this entire concept/theme I’ve ever yet seen. Well done and thank you, as always! 😊
as always a huge load of information, super nice.
i think there are still elves at first arwen and legolas and then also the mirkwood elves in general. but Lothlorien and secret vally would be left alone allso gondolin the havencity would be empty.
i think of thranduil as someone who would stay in the mirkwood until he dies and that he has a very straong hand on his fellow elves so that the most mirkwood elves would stay,
withou galadriel and elrond their elven kingdoms would go too, i think they are too much of an idol for the "normal" elves so they would follow them everywhere.
Legolas does go to the undying lands later on with Gimli though. It's really hard to predict, I think it would depend a lot on whether the elves that remained in Middle-Earth would still know how to reach Valinor, because I think once they start to fade significantly, very few would actively choose to remain there!
well thats rigth, but i remember frodo saying "Bilbo you have a great honor, to go with the last ships to the undying land" or very similiar so if there would be elves remainig they would be trapped (because if the elves were able to leave middle earth than it wouldn't be the last ship, okay it is maybe just the last ship bilbo could get on befor he dies.
Perhaps because it was made by Cirdan the shipwright. However, later on we're told that Legolas made a boat and took Gimli along to the undying lands :)
Arwen dies because of a broken heart
helmut helmlos Very good comment about Thranduil staying, except for the opposite reason. He rules a people who never wanted to sail west, according to Tolkien's own worda, unless they are seduced by the sight of the sea as poor Legolas was.
I believe, some of their children, perhaps, mixed with Men, might be still around. And even some faded, therefore invisible elves, too.
Thank you, and be blessed for such a great work. You;re helping us to understand our past.
Being immortal is not all that impressive in a place referered to as "The Undying Lands" :)
Mortals would still die there though :P
Yes, that is the point.
@John Arch He punishes those Númenoreans who did not mix races, for example
@MisterTutor2010 "when everyone is immortal, no one is". Not exactly the quote from a fictional character called S
I believe that the fire of ones spirit should be interpreted as the age right before adulthood, when one has such a great will and valiant strength that they have the desire to fight corruption and accomplish good. Such is the age when the spirit overtakes the body and gives it power and vitality that practically nothing can conquer.
I saw a picture of that elf with a sword and felt inspired with this knowledge.
+GeekZone - So, what do you think happened when Arwen and Aragorn married? - to Arwen? She was beginning to fade already, but it seemed: If all she hoped for - the Kingship of Aragorn, the defeat of Sauron, and the reign of goodness - with Evil being destroyed - for the most part - not entirely? For it does say Sauron poured Much of his power and malice into the ring - but not all of it - he may be greatly weakened - but not completely destroyed? The evil is greatly diminished - but will creep back into the world little by little? (she saw the prophecy of their child) - the land was 'healed' by the defeat of Sauron, with the destruction of the 1 ring of power, and peace, now reigns in middle earth. What will happen to Arwen, now? What will happen to Aragorn and Arwen's child? Half-elf and half-human? Will they cease fading and will some good power protect them, now?
Arwen chose to become human, so their child would be fully human just like Elros' children were, though probably prettier and even longer lived than Aragorn.
So did Luthien she chooses mortality and her decendents are Elros and Elrond and they are given a choice
Arwen's fate is told in Appendix A of TLOTR. She returns to Lorien after Aragorn dies and passes away there. She leaves behind their son Eldarion and daughters.
I'm a 38 year old man and therefore presumably an adult, but I giggled out loud every time he said "Morgoth's taint". Also I really enjoy these videos.
"...contains part of Morgoths taint"
Heheheeeeeee.....oh dude
Great video. Liked your look on things very much. We know that Frodos ship was not the last. Legolas leaves and is allowed to take Gimly with him. And Sam leaves as well for he also bore the ring even if it was for only a few hours.
Epic!
Thanks Jacen!
GeekZone You're very welcome!
It was also suggested that the elves were a little envious of the "Gift of Men" and what it meant. Ironically the Men of Numenor coveted the immortality of the Elves
Some say that the elves went up North into the Artic Circle to work for a fat guy named "Santa Claus" there they remained.
LoL :-D
This is such a beautiful and thorough explanation -- thank you!
"imagine you are immortal and everything aro-" *DEAL*
Immortality is a horrible curse if you actually think about it.
Immortality to me seems quite boring. Everything would be pointless eventually. What do you do after you've done literally every possible (And impossible because you'd find a way) thing you could do? Well, nothing, as there's nothing to do. Most human beings rather not sit around doing nothing all day.
@Trip Gil They're related
@Trip Gil Considering they can have children together...
@Trip Gil but half elves are not sterile
Very interesting idea. I am reading Silmarillion once again and I noticed one thing which can proof this theory as well. When Feanor and the most of Noldor were leaving Valinor, they saw someone, they believed it was Mandos. He spoke the judgement of the Valar. I quote: "And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken"
Possibly :)
wow... truely great video here and thoughts and reason to this subject. very good and deep. thanks
Thanks Zack!
I just want to say, that your videos are great and I watch and enjoy every single one of them. Also I am very impressed of how much you know about "The lord of the rings". These facts, which you are explaining, are real fascinating and give me a deep emotional understanding of this wonderful world Tolkien created. Thanks a lot! And please keep making more of these videos. Greetings from Germany!
I can't wait for your next video my friend! Great video btw!
Lauren
Thanks Lauren :)
I find it ironic that it is through Sauron's essence through the one ring that the few remaining Elven strongholds like Rivendell could continue to exist and that destroying the One meant the end of Elven kind on Middle Earth.
Noldor were returning ( though at elven speed ) before then.
Hey, I really missed your epic videos. I keep checking my subscription for your videos. And can you please do a video of king theoden. Or about Rohan which is my favourite kingdom. But you don't have to. I will still love your videos like always and forever my friend.
Thanks man! I've recently made one on Baldor which is essentially a story of a Rohan Prince, but I'll be doing more videos on their kingdom in the future for sure! :)
And here I am thinking that the elves were just bored of middle earth, that's why they're leaving.
Thanks for the video. Now I understand it. Heck, this makes me want to watch the trilogy all over again.
I used to think elves where just ass's but after seeing this I see that they are just being easier on themselves and everyone else so in the end them leaving is a mercy for everyone which I find is beautiful, sad ,and brave
I'm glad it changed your mind about them! :)
While we envy and wish for there immortality, they eny and wish for our mortality.
@Kind Citizen In LOTR they do. The way human mortality works is that when we die, we are reunited with Eru Illuvitar the creator. Therefore, our fate isn't connected to arda. When arda will be destroyed at the end of time, so will the elves but humanity will live on and a place will be reserved for us so that we may sing another song of creation alongside the creator.
Wonderful video! Very thoughtful and in-depth, it changed how I saw the elves. Thank you!
Wow Melkor have indeed disliked this!
- Damn mate this is very good work, I don't like the elven race myself, but this vedio is very interesting with theories and what you have found! :)
And to what you sad about the elven immortality is true. If you ask me the elves are envious of the humans as they/(we) live every day to its fullness with every moment that is precious, knowing this day or the day to tomorrow could be ending for them/us.
Thanks Peter! :)
You're welcome! It's me or us to thank you, for your great work! :D
I'm dyslexic... So just rub that in my face... you're not the first or the last, to do so...
- I can't help it. I have struggled with it all my life, 23 years... But do you know what, it's people like YOU! Who are wrong.. I don't let it stop me, nay will I nor.
- Say what you will to make you feel better.
Hello from Canada! This was the first video that I have seen from you. It was excellent! I look forward to watching previous ones and can't wait until the next one. Thank you.
What abouy Cirdan the Shipwright? He has been alive since at least the migration of the eldar to Valinor.
Yes, he's probably one of the oldest elves Alive and was showing some signs of age (like being one of the few Elves that had a beard). Despite this even he hadn't faded yet, which does show at what an old age this must occur!
In the original drafts of the story that was literally the last ship, but Tolkien changed his mind and kept Cirdan there, stroking his beard
09stoneheart Elves only fade if they want to fade, they make the choice to not go on, other wise they are killed or keep living
Galadriel was even older and I think was the last elf alive to have seen the two trees in Valinor
@@s.g.3898 Cirdan was older, he just didnt see the two trees in Valinor because he followed his duty commanded by the Valar and stayed in Beleriand/Middle-Earth. When Mithrandir/Gandalf arrives in Middle-Earth in the Grey Havens in the Third Age (Arda being reshaped already), Cirdan give him Narya and prophetise to him that he will leave Middle-Earth with the last ship. Galadriel is roughly 3000 years younger than him, but she did went to Valinor and then back to Middle-Earth after the first Kin-slaying of Feanor, although she didnt participate in it (and thats why she's able to go back i think btw)
GeekZone ... I love your videos and really appreciated this one. I especially liked your reminder of the more subtle reasons elves stayed in Middle Earth, by quoting The Silmarillion where Tolkien explains the prestige elves enjoy by remaining there, and their understanding they'd lose their elevated status as the "highest people" and would fall to the "bottom of the hierarchy" should they migrate to the West. This is especially true of the Noldor since we know Turgon and Galadriel desired to lead and influence their kindred by ruling their own kingdoms.
I like your overall thought where you have arrived at the concept that elves’ hröar fade over time and are overcome by their spirit. If we were to see a Tolkien elf today, we’d surly mistake it for an angel. With deep respect, I noticed the title “Why Must the Elves Leave Middle-Earth?” is not answered here. They don’t have to leave because they’re fading. They are being drawn home, because this is their fate. They understand, at differing levels, with the passing of the Third Age the Dominion of Men is upon them. The wisest beings in Middle Earth know this and are planning the transition (for ill or good). The more common Sindarin and Sylvan elves feel the pull of the ocean in their hearts and are compelled deeply.
A thought I had as I watched this video was your emphasis on the words "fade" and "fading" and less on the concept of "diminish" or "diminishing." Tolkien puts more emphasis on the fact the elves are diminishing in the Third Age, rather than fading. By this we are shown the actual number of their kind reducing greatly as they are each pulled toward the sea and the High Road to the West, which has the effect of reducing the stature of the powerful elves such as Elrond and Galadriel, as they have fewer subjects they can influence. Either by departing Middle Earth, or by death, the elves’ knowledge and magic is diminishing or becoming less. This decrease is magnified for the wisest and most powerful elves as their individual power is lessened when the rings they possess lose their potency following the destruction of the One Ring. In fact, this is specifically what Galadriel refers to when she says, "“I pass the test, I will diminish, and go into the West and remain Galadriel.”
Although the title may be a little off, I watched the entire video and it inspired me to write to you. (I don’t write many comments.) Keep up the great work. I love your videos! BC
sorrow of the firstborn, -20 morale
I am so glad I found you! I wondered why the Elves had to leave. Thank you for your beautiful explanation.
Cheers, and you're welcome! :)
is melkor weaker on earth or something? ive always been confused on how the greatest valar would almost die in battles with lesser spirits such as ungoliant and fingolfin, he always has to get ballied out by his balrogs, could you do a video on this cause it seems all the major spirits like valar and ainur seem so much weaker on the earth than they should be.like Gandalf couldn't fight off the wargs when the company got out of the mines without having the eagles help
alexshellnot The weakness of Melkor is a result of all of his hideous work. For all he created he put a part of his divine power in it. Being the Orks or the Dragons or Trolls. He even put his power into the earth her self. The more of his power he shared,the weaker he got,to the point where a Elf could wound him seven times ( Fingolfin ). But even so he was still powerful enough, that all of the Valar where needed in order to defeat him. As for Gandalf and the Istari, they had specific orders from the Valar and especially Eonwe NOT to use the divine/ angelic powers but to act through consolations and guidance. The appeard weakness whas not of their choice.
ok thanks a lot! This topic has always confused me so thanks!
remember Morgoth spread his essence all over the world- his "taint" infects everything- but doing this has made him very weak
alexshellnot Melkor is in chains beyond any realm, only for the very last battle will he be brought forth again,
Melkor even weak is beyond anyone in middle earth, he is far stronger than Sauron who was only a captain of Melkors
I wanted to let you know, that i really appreciate your videos, whil reading the silmarillion, these videos help me to understand some of the lore more easily and more clearly!
Am I just really immature or did any one else giggle when he said "morgoths taint"
🤣
Some very interesting material here that I wasn’t aware of from Tolkien’s letters. I hadn’t considered the idea of the elves literally fading, I had always taken this to be metaphorical. But yes it makes sense, I think Tolkien would have envisaged a remnant of the elves remaining in middle earth, perhaps the wood elves or some of the moriquendi (I think that’s right...) and gradually fading and diminishing with time. Perhaps they became the ‘ghosts’ and ‘fairies’ of our imagination once their physical forms dissolved. Great video!
It could very much be so! :) Thanks mate!
I liked the Naruto music at the end lol :)
It's a nice music piece! :P
These videos are awesome! I’ve discovered it’s actually pretty hard to do videos like this through what I’ve seen because there’s just so much backstory and information to everything that is scattered throughout the timeline that people have a hard time putting it simply, in a way that makes sense and is not too complicated and is not an hour long. You do a very good job of keeping it as simple as it can be not to mention the art you have on your videos, I don’t know where the fuck you found that shit but it’s dope. I’m glad I found your channel
off topic, but they talk about in the hobbit that when dragons amase a hoard that the taint that treasure with a "dragon sickness" and that it was what was affecting the dwarfs to get greedy in the movie. So bilbo takes his percentage of the look and some of it goes to the laketown survivors. did the dragon sickness affect anyone after the events of the book?
Calli Clark The " dragon sickness " thing is a movie plot, in the books the only sickness is the unhealthy fixation with gold. How much of an influence a dragon may have upon it it's left more or less unanswered.
str81100 well i thought the rings of power the dwarfs had were partly influential in the hoarding tendencies. wiki says that the dragon sickness thing was also referred in the story of fram of the eotheod. he slew the dragon scatha and behaved like thorin in the movies. maybe that is where they got it from?
Possibly, though the films greatly exaggerated Thorin's greed. Any anger he had stemmed from not finding the Arkenstone, and he was simply being a stubborn dwarf when he refused to give up some of his gold to the Elves and the Men of Lake Town ( though he said he would give them so treasure in due time once the Elves depart).
Calli Clark That is true,the rings of power that the Dwarves got, did not corrupt them, in the sence that Sauron intended, but they did increased their greed for treasure and gold. Some more then others. It whas always my conviction,that the dragon sickness, whas more of a comparison of character,the something literal. Dragons had an obsesiv greed and lust for treasure, therefore someone with the same obsession could easily be said, he had the dragon sickness.
Calli Clark there is no "dragon sickness" in the book. Please cleanse the movie from your mind first.
What really happens is that because of the sheer amount of gold, Thorin and co are somewhat left in awe and amazement at it all. Thorin is also being stubborn when Bard asks for some gold, as he feels it only belonged to his clan. Bilbo is the only member of the party that sees beyond the gold and gems, as he has no emotional connection to the Mountain. Even in the end, Bilbo gives up his 14th for the Dale-Men and none of the others do.
The Master in Laketown is arguably similarly greedy, as he immediately takes off with gold Bard gave him.
I have been looking for this answer for year ,i'm most happy now after watching your video , cos i finaly put the pieces together. Thanks a lot
Could you please do a video on the wainriders !
P.S. You sir are a genius
I'll do one for sure in the future, it's on my list :)
Thank you sir !!
TULKAS ASTALDO
Very nice video. I didn't know the elves were this complex. They are in fact attracted to both middle Earth and the west lands, to the point that the Middle Earth almost sounds better, but is also poisonous and filled of sad experiences, that it is meant to be left in time.
The fading is also another interesting aspect. Elves are generally portraited as holy all around, but they are in fact a cast in a conflicting form, a holy spirit on a tainted body, deemed to fade away.
1:30 - Why does Tolkien differentiate them from 'Wild Elves'? Instead, he groups Wild Elves with Men and Dwarves, thereby making Wild Elves their own race.
This almost implies Wild Elves can stay in Middle Earth and not feel this calling back to Valinor like their 'Higher' brethren?
Tolkien's work is too amorphous/nebulous in cases like this.
many Wild Elves became Orcs anyway, while those who remained free, like what the video said, would feel weary because of the taint that Morgoth left over creation....and they were all called before, only the WIld Elves refused at first, since they were still young....
It's the price of immortality and reincarnation. That they fade as nothing stays as it was and they grow weary of Arda, only in Valinor does nothing fade or change.
It's why they consider final death a gift bestowed on Men.
The gift of men, morality...something The Kings men didn’t understand ;)
Speaking of that, Maybe a video on the history of Númenor?
reminds me of Ann Rice and how if a vampire lives long enough they will go mad.
Tolkien? In my Anne Rice? More likely than you think ( has she decided if she is catholic or not, yet? )
The ending of the Lord of the Rings trilogy always makes me cry for some reason.
Don't worry, you're not the only one😟💔
Amazing video and a great topic! I always wondered about this!
A glaring omission in this video is The Doom of Mandos, quoted here:
“Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar left from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all who follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever."
"Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death’s shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken."
Well, look at that, being genocidal imperialists is a bad thing, apparently! But yes, with all due respect to the video-makers erudition, he fails to distinguish Noldor elves from all the other elfin dispensations.
The analogy about being immortal while everything else around you is mortal, and watching it all die over and over again, reminded me of a scene in Doctor Who, where he makes a similar point.
What if Smaug survived into the War of the Ring?
I'll look into it ;)
+GeekZone
an excellent question. Tolkien himself address is it in the invaluable appendices of the third book of the trilogy Return of the King.
Gandalf reminisces how Thorin Oakenshield's kinsman Dain was still able to wield an axe. and then he muses on what it would have been like if Smaug had not been slain. If I recall, he sums it up in one ghastly phrase. "Dragon fire, swords, and night in Lorien." or words to that effect. But I'm stealing your thunder. You go ahead and make that video. You are a far superior Tolkien scholar compared to me.
"The Dragon Sauron could use to great effect".
The Dwarves and Men of Dale were the only armies in the North available to stop the Easterlings and Misty Mountain Orcs. Without Erebor and the prosperity it brought no one would have been there to fight
he would have devastated the north, if i remeber correctly even rivendell would have been in danger
Kane Rises
Gandalf foresaw both the abandonment of the One Ring from Gollum and it's finding and acquisition by Bilbo. Gandalf knew that only a hobbit -- being the only creature in Middle Earth that was so innocent, pastoral, guileless and true -- to safely handle and withstand the corrupting power of the Ring. Gandalf also knew that a dragon under the sway of Sauron would be invincible in the coming Battle for Middle Earth.
So Gandalf presciently directed a two-pronged mission of directing Bilbo to the Lonely Mountain to find the Ring and aid the Dwarves in their quest to destroy Smaug.
"the elves was ready to sacrifice their realms lands and happiness to defeat sauron" a great quote
Noldor were willing to admit their genocidal imperialist adventure was a bad idea, more like it.
Great detailed video but I have 1 question...do woodland elves also fade and have to leave?
Leroy Lannister All Elves will eventually be consumed by their spirits and the weight of time upon them. Unless they go to the real West. Valinor.
Yes, it was the fate of all elves :(
They have to leave because "Melkor element" on middle earth damages their spirits. Middle earth supposed to be a living land for Elves but Melkor somehow cursed the lands of Middle Earth and appearently this Melkor element only damages Elves. Therefore they must go to Valinor where Melkor did not inject curse on. Middle Earth was not supposed to have 'fading' effect on Elves but its Melkor's dirty work.
thefunder1 that isn't the reason at all, Melkor has nothing to do with. The Elves do not belong in middle earth is why, they came to middle earth in rebellion.
It is not only to the elves that the sea has a strange pull. Tolkien wrote elsewhere "It is the doom of men that they will hearken to the voice of the sea, and it will awaken in them a longing for they know not what."