Would you prefer the fate of the Elves or that of Men? And do you think that Men's fear of death was unfounded? As always subtitles are available and feedback is welcome!
I'd probably prefer the fate of the Numenoreans (if I could choose), as they should have been. Mortality is what makes time so precious, because we only have a finite amount of time to accomplish and achieve everything we want to in life. A general lifespan probably couldn't encompass everything we'd want to do (at least, not if you're a massive procrastinator like me), but a lifespan three times as long would more than likely give us ample time to pursue everything we'd like to in life. Immortality seems like it would eventually be boring and could also be painful if you were living in Middle Earth and had to live to see many of your mortal friends die whilst you lived on (although that would also be the case with an extended lifespan I suppose, but not to the same extent).
Because they may corrupt it. Dwarves and elves were different and awoke first. Makes sense to me that the most mortal of the races wouldn’t be allowed in
I always wondered what happened to gollums spirit. The valar reject saruman but gollum was corrupted by the ring he didn't originally set out to be evil. Had he not found the ring he most likely would've been a pretty normal Hobbit. He played a pivotal role in destroying the ring even if he didn't mean to do it but again literally anybody in his position would've fallen to the same level. I always wondered if he would be forgiven
Technically, Ar-Pharazon and those of his men who landed in Valinor did achieve immortality. Just not in the way they had hoped. They weren't killed by the landslide that covered them, but rather imprisoned there until the ending of the world. So TECHNICALLY, Sauron was honest with them when he told them that they could seize immortality by travelling to Aman...
@@Ancientneutrality The whole point of the post was about how Sauron was- technically- honest with the Numenorian king when he told him that immortality could be seized by travelling to Valinor. Bringing up Tuor either ignores or fails to recognise the who point of the comment.
Iluvatar: "Death is not a curse, it is a gift." Man: "How is it a gift?" Iluvatar: "I designed you so that if you didn't die on your own you would basically torture yourself to death eventually. Thus, your natural death is a mercy and blessing." Man: "I'm not sure you understand what a gift is..."
Yea, seems dumb if you put it that way. It seems like a big part of the explanation of how all of this works was left out. Ideas of reincarnation and spiritual progression through numerous lives, would give this whole story a much nicer look. inb4 "that's not mentioned anywhere in Tolkiens writings", sure dude, you win. Have a nice day.
Under these principles we understand man as it is now. Our limitations are what give us desire to progress. The elves live in harmony but also stagnation. Humans live to make life brighter for their offspring. We grow generationally. It is our nature to fight entropy itself. So to be immortal is a curse upon man. Because with death conquered medicine stagnates. Technology stagnates. And in the end the sun is not eternal. We meet our end with heat and death. So we find that our deaths are that which spurs us to change. To adapt. To understand everything we can. Unlike the elves we dont live in harmony. We combat and force nature to submit. And I find a true and honest beauty in that fight.
@@infinitetroll03 nahh it was even simpler. It not death that was gift, but what happen next. Mostly all VAlar and Mayar when entered Arda they couldnt get out of it. And so are elves. BAsicaly VAlar, MAyar and Evles bound to world even if they die(lost physical body) they just turned into ghost. Elves become ghosts in MAndos Hall. And Valar or MAyar could regain physical form with time. But only Men when die could get to Iluvutar realm where MAyar and Valar came originally into created by them world. So basicaly men are just pasenger in this world, they dont belong to her. It was gift cause even MAnve or Morgot could return to Iluvatar realm untill end of World. BAsicaly they all chained their and there is prophesy that elves, mayar and valar would reunite with men in Iluvatar realm and would create secong song: Beter World without Melkor discord. Basicaly men get first from party other would join them later. But most men afraid of that cause for them death was jump into uknown and so they didnt know they would just basicaly go to Heaven where Valar came from And men forget that cause they lost faith and conection with Iluvator especialy late Numenor.
@@rimanm6934 Maybe the gods should have actually visited the men frequently to prevent faith from wavering? Or Eru should have explained carefully what death entails to men and correct the lies Melkor spread?
@@durshurrikun150 they kinda did. People in First Era knew. For example Hurin when captured by Melkor said: you have no power over me beyond circle of this world. Melkor was angry and wanted scared him saying: there is nothing beyond circle of this world. Which Hurin didnt belive that why Melkor tormented him instead. Cause if there was nothing where Melkor came form than? Ancient people were more spiritual and more conected to Eru. He was so inpresed by them he gave Numenorian extended life: 200 year regular and 300-500 Elros Dynasty. But people are easier to influance. It not even fear of death but they got so much power they became too atached to world they didnt wont live it. Even though because they so powerfull they wasnt suposed lived so long. For example Numenorian were so strong Sauron forces just run aways when saw Ar-Pharazon army. Vanity and pride is l what lead people stray. They worshiped Eru directly. But forgot that all. How Eru esle should have explain that? They were so strounge that even Valar couldnt stop them so Eru directly intervined and realised he gave people too much power and they strayed too much. So longlivity was taken away. And only few reagain it. Faith wavered long before fear of death. It was selfishness. They knew gods exist and knew Eru exist. Coruption and desire for more power that wavered faith, long before that. Also that doesnt mean men were evil.) Elves before them did even more bad stuff for jewels.) Both elves and men and even valar had their flawes. Only seems Eru was perfect.
What gift did you get from Eru Iluvatar? Valar: We got to sing creation into existence! And we're immortal. Ents: We got immortality too, and amazing strength! Elves: We got immortality and a holy land to live in after Middle-earth gets messed up partly because of us! Men: I got a rock.
Men: I got a rock, which I can't fully explore and settle because if I move on the wrong direction, then Eru gets mad and starts sinking parts of said rock...sooo...you guys sacrificing elven children to Melkor tomorrow?
Men got to transcend the world for some greater purpose. Maybe it was the failing of Eru Iluvatar that man did not appreciate or understand the significance of his reward at the end of his life
It's pretty funny how even Manwe admits that part of the reason men can't live in Aman is because he and his followers would treat them like vermin. It really helps to flesh out some characters who are too often seen as stuffy and too perfect to relate to.
Sympathetic to men. The elves revolt and screw up constantly, and the Valar forgive them over and over. Men suffer and are corrupted by a Maiar (who should be the Valar’s problem), and their greatest civilization is destroyed and the survivors are left to fight Sauron, who they’re not even capable of killing.
Same. The valar are extremely biased towards men in favor of elves. Manwe said only if a half elf came before him asking for aid against morgoth would he go to war. Then told said half elf if he didn't choose to be an elf he would kill him for being a mortal who dared set foot in his holy land. The valar wouldn't go to war for the sake of man yet they went to war for the sake of the elves. Manwe even got a chewing out by Eru for delaying the war for so long and placing conditions for the valar to go to war. Saying if he truly knew his mind he would have gone to war knowing he would fix everything for the war would have been just in saving the mortals from morgoth. Also as you said they made men deal with sauron when the istari could have beaten him. Hell tolkien even states in one of his letters Gandalf could have forced saurons will from the ring thus extremely weaking him. There are multiple beings the valar could have sent to deal with sauron yet didn't.
@@chriswilder9719 regarding Gandalf and the Ring did Tolkien say that he WOULD have succeeded or was it only a possibility? I'm guessing there would be severe consequences for failing. Also how weakened are we talking. Is it close to the level of power loss from destroying the Ring? Or is it more like losing an "arm?"
@@sr71silver Tolkien said he would have succeeded. The catch would have been a good lord worse than any dark lord. Gandalf would have made the penalty for any broken law severe and the standard for goodness would be close to unattainable. To the point sauron would seem like a good trade off. And it would have had been the same as if it was destroyed. He would have been purged from the ring and his connection to it severed
@@level9drow856 also if death is really a gift, why is death the punishment for a mortal stepping foot into Valinor? They were gonna kill Earandil until they decided he’d be counted as an elf since he was half Noldor.
If there's going to be a discussion on which is better, the Gift of Men or the Gift of Elves, I think the best person to ask would be Arwen. Her last words to Aragorn before he died were: "But I say to you, King of the Numenoreans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." Sure, the Silmarillion states that the Elves and even the Valar envy the mortality of Men, but Men envy the _immortality_ of the Elves and the Valar. And seeing as Arwen is the only individual in Tolkien's Legendarium to have actually experienced _both_ and given her opinion on the matter, I'd say she's the closest thing we have to an expert on the topic.
Before Arwen, there was Elros, her uncle, who also chose mortality, but he welcomed and embraced the gift. Probably because he's just willing to surrender to the will of Eru without any question?
Arwen was not the only one. Luthien was the first. Half elven, half Maia. Then chose a mortal life with Beren. Elros and Elrond's parents, Earendil and Elwing, chose next. They were both half elven. But they grew at the rate of mortal men and most likely would have had a mortal lifespan (considering the story Tolkien wrote, that may or may or not be cannon, of one of the elf and men relationships, all the descendants after were all mortals with elven blood in them). In a way, they lived a mortal life among the elves. Elwing chose to be an elf. Earendil was originally going to choose to be mortal, but instead chose to be an elf for the sake of his wife. Then Elros chose. Considering what he and his brother had to go through from a very young age, I think starting at two years old, I don't blame him for not wanting to keep lingering in Middle Earth with his trauma and knowing what the elves had done in the first age and before that. He decided to live the rest of his life in peace and then move on.
@@ellerj641 That's not what happened to Luthien. When Beren was killed, she willed herself to die as well. She went to the Halls of Mandos and sung such a mournful and beautiful song that Mandos himself was moved. He gave them her a second chance at life, but she would be mortal (Manwe managed to get Beren brought back from the dead as well). They lived as mortals again, and died as mortals. Arwen was living as an Elf, but was Half Elven and given a choice. She married Aragorn and chose to be counted among Men. At the end, she wasn't ready to give up her life, but had to.
@@benu_bird Hello! Luthien did choose. Manwe gave her the choice, to be freed from his halls early as a reward for her deeds and to live in peace in Valinor, or to return to Middle Earth with Beren but she would have to become mortal. Luthien refused to depart from her beloved, so she chose to be mortal and bring Beren back so they could be together, then be together forever when they both passed beyond the circles of the world.
The fate of Men isn't necessarily the less desirable as Tolkien wrote that by time even the elves would envy them for not having to endure age after age of the world. Also Men will play an important role in the second music of the Ainur whereas the Elves may completely vanish when Arda is reforged because they are so strongly bound to it
irl 100yo people wish for death, and their lives are great. You can imagine how depressing a numenorean living 200 years or so in middle earth right next to sauron and the witch king, let alone elves living thousands of years. You'd go utterly mad
I think there in lies the point Tolkien wrote for the two races. they both have something to envy each other for, and think the other doesn't appreciate their amazing gift Elves think Men don't appreciate that they get to experience the world in a short blip of excitement, adventure and curiosity, and that having a finite lifespan where their spirits aren't tied to the world means they get to enjoy the lives they lead much more Men think Elves don't appreciate how immortality means they never have to leave everything they've come to love behind, and how much they love this world, and if only they could spend more time with it instead of succumbing to the wiles of old age, disease or battle And then you have the Dwarves and Ents, just looking at these two from an inbetween spot
@@thecpt6265 this is why Elrond desperately didn't want Arwin to go with Aragorn. Because regardless of her choice, both of them would suffer greatly If she remains an immortal Elves, she'd get to watch her love become old and die, along with her son, and their children, and everyone else around her, and she'd mourn and weep eternally as she witnesses everything mortal wither as she does not, cursed to wander through a world that eternally changes around her. you can see how Elrond would feel about his daughter going through such a terrible kind of suffering And if she becomes a mortal woman, she'd get to live and die with Aragorn, and Elrond would never get to see his daughter...ever again And for an immortal Elf, there is no worse thing to happen than to witness your child grow old and die when you do not
@@enderman_of_d00m24 Yes, but I would leave out the ents. While Tolkien seems to have been unsure about their nature at first he later made it pretty clear that they were not among the "children" but spirits bound to earthly forms like the eagles.
reminds me of a quote from interview with the vampire: Armand: Do you know how few vampires have the stamina for immortality? How quickly they perish of their own will? The world changes, we do not. Therein lies the irony that finally kills us
the irony is that Lestat (apart from killing for blood) is a lover of life, enjoying things like music, wine, dancing and women. Things that are always around and have entertained people for eternity
To quote the 10th Doctor, "I'm old enough to know that a longer life isn't always a better one. In the end, you just get tired. Tired of the struggle, tired of losing everyone that matters to you, tired of watching everything turn to dust. If you live long enough, Lazarus, the only certainty left is that you'll end up alone." From The Lazarus Experiment".
Well if the whole World is going to disappear someday. And if the elves and their spirit are "bound" to it, they will also disappear one day. So ... they are not truly immortal. Their destiny is to live ... and disappear forever with the World itself, which is also a curse. If the human spirit goes elsewhere when they leave their flesh, (we don't know where) it might actually be better.
Eternal existence would seem more like a curse, to be honest.... Although I like the twist in your idea,: the ones thought to be immortal are actually not and the ones thought to be mortal are really immortal
I read somewhere that they would be able to leave the world after it had ended. Men could "leave early" as it were, but the elves had to wait until the end of the world to leave.
On my opinion about inmortality, this is what Captain Teaune, Keeper of the Pirate's Law said this to Jack. *"It's now about living forever, Jackie. The trick is living with **_yourself_** forever."*
People don't realize that the nature of the elves actually makes them profoundly limited in many ways. They don't change things. They don't advance. In many ways they lack the same level of free will which humans enjoy. Humans are meant for a higher purpose, that's why Eru wants them to leave Arda. They appear to have humble beginnings, but their increased ability to choose and cause change reveals that in the future beyond death they will surpass the elves.
I think you're only referring to the Vanyar/Teleri Elves but Noldor Elves are very much akin to Men than their own. The main reason why they revolted against the Valar in Valinor was they felt confined and were being held back in Valinor and they loved the wide spaces and freedom in ME as described by Melkor to them.
@@ArJay1688 the Noldors should have had the gut to finish what Feanor started and stay in ME. Maybe they should build another hall of mandos in the ME or sth
@@ArJay1688 perhaps that's why the Noldor Elves built the strongest Elven realms? They did have a great motivator in Melkor's treachery. Mortal or Immortal, when a bastard murders the High King and steals the prized jewels of his firstborn son, now the new High King, you're gonna act rather human like and seek bloody vengeance against that monster
I mean, I'd consider the palantiri, several languages, their songs of power, etc, to be advancements. It's even said that the Elves perfect their craft over time to the point that others think they can do legit magic.
Of course it was unfair. Elves had a choice - they could have lived in Valinor. Both sindar and noldor made their choice to stay in the case of the first ones or go to Middle Earth in case of noldor no matter the suffering inflicted on them by Morgoth. People had no choice but to live on a spoiled land of Middle Earth and fight against Morgoth and Sauron. They were unwillingly used as a tool to weaken Morgoth - how could this be fair?
It's funny, Eru saying that Men weren't bound to Arda and therefore being destined to leave it, then throwing a hissy fit when Ar-Pharazôn wanted to explore.
Disclaimer: Sorry if I'm just writing the things mentioned in the video. I'm just tiping my thoughts before watching the video. The great mistake men have when thinking avout the undying lands: Travelling there does NOT mean that they become immortal themselves. Undying lands basically means, that the immortal race (elves) lives there. Not that everything entering those lands becomes immortal. Just look at Frodo, Bilbo, Gimli and (later) Sam. All were allowed to travel there. Bilbo, Frodo and Sam as a reward for being ringbearers of the one ring, Gimli as a symbol of friendship between elves and dwarves. His friendship with Legolas basically ended a deep hatred that started with the murder of King Thingol of Menegroth in the first age. But all of the fore mortals that were allowed to enter the undying lands had to die at some point. They probably lives without any worries or illnesses until their end, but they had to die some day. The undying lands were not designed as a thing prohibited to men in a evil way. They were made to make the very concept of immortality bearable to elves. Immortality might seem tempting to a race that has to die after a rather short live. But really living forever can be a heavier burden than death itself.
the hatred between Dwarves and Elves started even earlier, when the Sindar mistakenly hunted the Petty Dwarves as animals as they had never met speaking creatures they did not teach themselves before. We have to note that apart from Frodo, all of the Ringbearers and Gimli were close to the end of their natural lives (Bilbo was well beyond it) , so their reward would be a brief period of bliss and tranquility before their departure from the world. Sam in particular lived an incredibly happy life, leaving only when Rosie his beloved wife died, The message is that one doesn't need immortality to be happy or great, one's achievements during their lifetime are enough. Legolas and Gimli discuss Men and their short-term gains and losses in 'Minas Tirith', saying that Men often fail at their promises but not of their seed. Gimli notes that the best stone in the city is the oldest and longest set. Minas Tirith, the city built by the Numenoreans was once mighty but is now the last one left after the fall of all the others, and is people are in their twilight- yet they are still around, even prospering after a fashion .Heroes like Bergerond and Faramir still exist, even mightier men like Imrahil. Yet they will all die, to be replaced by their heirs, perhaps to a less successful extent.
Not all the Elves appreciated the unchanging nature of Undying Lands. Most Noldor were bothered by it for their nature too was to shape and change their surroundings. They were masters of building, reshaping and crafting.
@@GreenOlive54 This was only to make the Noldor craft weapons and distrust the Valar and each other. Their desire for crafting came from their friendship with Aule.
@@enderman_of_d00m24 Because living in an unchanging land and to craft change do not go hand in hand. Aule the craftsman gave them this gift and he too was restless. So restless in fact that he grew impatient waiting for the Children of Iluvatar to awaken and created the dwarves.
A few thoughts occurred to me during the video: 1. The Undying land was not so. Elves (specifically the Noldor) brought conflict and death with them both by postpartum weariness and also by bloodshed. Though these elves could reincarnate, those who died this way seldom choose or are allowed to do so. 2. Numenor was too close to Aman. I think this is why Eru sank it beneath the waves and turned Arda into a sphere. The Ainur and the Eldar turned Numenor into Tol Eressea East. It's flora and perhaps fauna came from the West. They were taught the Arts and Crafts of the West by Eldar and Maiar. The Numenoreans were given every gift they were authorized to give, but in the end men desired the one gift the Valar could not give. All of the effects of living in Aman that you describe happened, at perhaps less intensity, in Numenor. In the end it robbed them of their nobility and peace and turned them into tyrants. 3. It is not for the Children to say who have been given the better Gift. Each Gift looks better to the other at some point. Weary elves long to be free of the confines of Arda. Men crave the immortal agelessness of elves. However, men cannot ken what it means to be tied to fate, to have your near endless days laid out for you with no ability to alter their course. Elves on the other hand do not know the fear of death and do not have to rely on faith for what happens after their bodies die. For either kindred, rejection of their gift and envy of the other leads only to conflict, misery, and sorrow.
Oh, hey Ar-Pharazôn! How are you doing, man? Still buried alive? Truth be told, I don't really like the Valar anymore than I like Melkor. But that last invasion plan clearly didn't work. Maybe you should hire Kratos and Asura. XD
@@user-oq4yk1xd7d But to be fair, this was the Valar fault. They put Numenor in sight of Aman and told them they could not go there. Its like holding a slice of the most delicious looking cake you have ever seen and say you cannot get a taste of it. Seeing a place where there is no disease, sickness, old age or hurt, eventually brews anger and disdain, and then rebellion. The Valar were unbearably naive and incompetent, and whats worse, is that they were actually shocked when Men rebelled.
I would agree that _neither_ Men nor Elves understood 'the gift,' however, it seems that Elves and Men were both aware- at some point- that it was indeed a gift and that later generations of Men came to forget this, knowing only that they died while the Elves didn't. By the third age, it seemed that only the Dunedain were aware that the differences in lifespans were due to the mandate of Eru Iluvatar (presumably due to the teachings of Elrond), while those in Gondor had long since forgotten such things. Still, Men, Elves, the Maiar and even the Valar (possibly excepting Mandos) did not know what happened to the spirits of Men when they left the halls of Mandos, knowing only that they were housed in halls set apart for them- for a while- and then they departed. Without knowing what happened to the Fea, the spirits of Men, I don't think any of them, not even the Valar could claim to understand the nature of the 'Gift' of Iluvatar.
@@Raz.C "Still, Men, Elves, the Maiar and even the Valar (possibly excepting Mandos)" I don't know about Namo however Manwe did know as he regularly communed with Iluvator.
@@nicholasmaude6906 Yes, he did. However, each Vala is- you could say- attuned to a different aspect of the mind of Eru. Namo and Irmo being the Feanturi, were much more closely attuned with the Fea of living beings than Manwe would have been. Namo would have been the one who would have known, if any of them did.
It wasn't that, it was that he would almost certainly never see her again. Living as an elf, she could have travelled to Aman, but even if she had died her spirit would have gone to Mandos and eventually been released. Choosing mortality meant that that would not happen; her spirit would travel beyond the circles of the world after her death so they would never meet again while the world lasted, or maybe even beyond that, as the future of the elves beyond Dagor Dagorath is unknown.
An interesting question: What were the spirits of Elrond and Elros like? They were both given the coice to become mortal or to stay immortal. But did the coice mean that there was something changed in their personality as well, so they'd fit more into their chosen race? Or was their choice predestined by what their spirit was like (more elven-like vs. more human-like)? Although Elros died when he was 500 years lod, being the longest-living man of all time, was he like all other humans, changing and forming the world around him like mankind always does? Or was he more like the elves, preserving things like they were? And did Elrond pursue changing the world around him more than other elves did? Or did it mean some profound change in their spirits / souls, when those brothers chose their path, much deeper than just choosing death or immortality?
@@danielriley7380 Actually Elrond was said to be a Half-Elf in the books but this is never stated at all in the movies by Peter Jackson. Half Man...Half Elf...but because he inherited most of his Elvish ancestry in not just his physical appearance but also Elvish magics as well along with their immortality, hes often mistaken easily as a pure blooded Elf along with his entire family. And it doesnt help that hes high up on the Elvish Hierarchy too.
Elros chose to spend his days alongside men and was counted among them. Elrond chose to keep the company of elves and to return with them to the Undying Lands. Luthien chose to spend her life with her love Beren as a mortal woman and now abides with him beyond the circles of the world. Tuor, due to his association with Ulmo, his marriage to an Elven Princess, and they respect and honor given to him in Gondolin allowed him to be the only mortal counted among the Elves. The answer to this seem to rely more on the company you keep than a spiritual change. Or, perhaps the community they associated with changes the nature of their spirit.
I can understand why Eru wanted humans to not follow the music, but why mortality that can only last last a little over 100 years? It didn’t have to be Númanorian 500, it could been a default of 200 or 250?
True though Tolkien said that the longer Numenorean lifespans made them more reluctant to accept death, since they cared more about their physical life
Arbitrary numbers longer or shorter don't matter. As Tolkien said in an interview, the only reason to have more time for him would be to complete a work too large for a few decades. How many people do you know have a life mission and work that big? How many do you know have flames dwindling after 25 and only grab for more out of fear of loss? I've been blessed with an adventurous heart and have seen and done wonderful things and at 40 I'm completely exhausted, not resentful, just tired. Another 20 years just to sit in some suburban hell consuming material and hoarding life is no life at all. It isn't the length of time, it is what you can do with it.
@@artemismoonbow2475 I enjoy your statement but disagree on point. Over the past 41 years I've lived an extremely interesting life, others who know me and hear stories from earlier chapters comment about mine having been an eventful one. I can say now it's been a full one and I'm now living in what I consider prosperity in comparison to my previous norms and I could enjoy this as long as possible. If it ended today I would be happy with the life I've led but I would prefer to continue enjoying what I've made for myself.
@@mikekochendorfer7965 I don't think we are in disagreement. I also think Point of Orders are usually subjective clarifications and that's actually a good thing. Our personal views of the journey differ slightly, but really, they don't. I'm happy for your reply and I hope you find years of joy in family and fun. Cheers.
Eru: My Eldest Children will be immortal, fairest, and wisest Eru: My Adoptive Children will be gifted in craftsmanship Eru: My Second Children…uh your time is limited on Earth, but hey you’re my favorite child! Men: gee, thanks dad…
Eru: don't worry, after the end of the world, you will sing with me to create a new world and live there again. While the elves and dwarves die, they fade and they dont feel pain and suffering anymore just death and peace to them while you will stay here :D. Men: I don't think that's any better.
I have never understood why death is supposed to be gift at all. Maybe you could explain that in a futurre video? Maybe touch on the discussion between Finrod and Andreth for context?
Death is the ability to move on to a higher level. If death is only physical, then spiritually it would allow you to transcend beyond your body. Become unlimited and free. If you were immortal, staying in the same body forever would be a curse. You would never be free.
Ok.., imagine in a real-world setting that you suffer from schizophrenia but you can't die. Isn't death a perfect closure to your suffering? Yes it really is as it would extinguish your suffering and mental turmoil. Death is natural, it is the ceasation of suffering. Elves on Aman are not men. They are elves. Elves are hardwired differently.
I was gonna say, Eru and the Valar just come off as dicks in Tolkeins writing disguised as some omnipotent grand plan. They let morgoth nearly destroy the entire world out of spite for the elves who left them for middle earth.
Well Isildur cursed the Dunharrow army to never rest in peace for their cowardice. Being one of The Faithful/Dunedain, he must have known some magics in which to prevent the soul from leaving.
I don’t think they knew. Seems most of lore from the beginning of the world passed into lore and myth through the ages. Even the valar became myth in the eyes of men as the ages went by.
The Edain probably learned of it from the Noldor, but the bulk of men may not have, having been manipulated to some extent by Melkor or Suaron. Even the Ainur didn't know where the fea of men went when they died.
All we know for certain, is that Men were the most favorite children of Eru! The special of the two (or 3rd if you consider the adoption of the Dwarves, which technically is indirectly his children through one of the Valar)! That is why nobody KNOWS what happens to Men when they die or where they go or what their purpose is! But that is why Men have the free will to do as they please (well us humans as this is Tolkien’s version of explanation of why we are always seeking our own fates & why we sacrifice & long for that what is truly our own desires). We aren’t bound to the Earth & to follow the rules of that unlike the Elves 🧝♀️ & Valar. That is why Men crave adventure, knowledge, passion, desire, & so forth. But as for the true extent of why Men were given mortality...no one knows nor comprehends nor understands as to why... In all honesty, I believe this is why when Men live you either have faith or dont. You have the blessings of choice & even if this life is in despair & Great Opression, at least you’re able to escape & leave this world into another. Why the Men will meet Eru & be given or granted a next life & so on. If anyone notices, Men become adaptive & resilient & skillful within such a short time span. It’s not difficult to fathom that Men have the talent & capability to far exceed even those born with blessed powers. That’s what I honestly believe the spirit of Man is special & will continue living in a way bestowed upon the One Creator.
They're the ones who made it up. The elves have no idea what their fate is because Eru refuses to tell them. Therefore the Dagor Dagorath is a bit of made-up mannish Fourth Age eschatology, which explains its nonsensical parts like Turin and Feanor acting way out of character.
This was a rather interesting concept to think about. I always thought that death itself was more of a gift, a gift of mortality. Elves and men have their own gifts. Elves have the gift of Immortality, because if they die, their spirits would be bound to the world of Arda, never an eternal afterlife which is a gift given to the race of men. In other words, the men go into an afterlife without being bound to the world, and the elves' spirits forever remain bound to the world of Arda, becoming 'one' with it. This is why elves have immortality, so that their spirits throughout all of time can strengthen and endure. The men on the other hand, aren't bound to the world of Arda, but their souls are able to pass beyond the world of Arda, perhaps being able to rejoin Eru Illuvatar and become Maiar themselves. So in my opinion, the spirits of the elves would never leave the world of Arda, but remain until the end of time. The only problem I have is this. The Valar seemed to "favor" the elves more than men in the sense that the elves have a piece of land where they could live without constant changes that the men of middle-earth desire from time to time. But unlike the men, the elves also had great protection from the Valar, therefore the men were most vulnerable to corruption. Therefore, it's unwise to blame men for being envious of the elves' immortality when Morgoth was the one who corrupted their hearts to see mortality as a curse than a blessing. Yet, who didn't bother to stop Morgoth from corrupting the race of men? The Valar. Not even Sauron was stopped by them. All they did was tell the race of Elves to go ahead and abandon Middle-Earth, not fix the mess they created in the first place. So I'm very much in sympathy for Men and in favor of the fates of men. I sympathize with the race of men because they weren't protected by the Valar, and were left with the chances of being corrupted by Morgoth and Sauron to turn against the elves and the free peoples of Middle-Earth. Also, I find mortality more as a gift, because being bound to the world of Arda in spirit rather than able to go beyond that and be at true peace in the afterlife sounds more like a curse to me than a blessing the elves got.
I'm a bit torn on which side eru's creation I'd choose. As a man, it would feel the same as now; conversely, as an eldar, it would be a stretched out variation of men
I know the assumptions about immortality having its drawbacks (the freedom to leave life and its burdens behind, etc...), but would've been nice to see some exploration of why mortality was a gift in this vid. If men had an immortal soul, surely the problems would be gone?
Thank you for what you have done, Numenor's loss is due to their heinous actions, human beings are constantly changing because of their nature. I am one of your Arab followers I have something I like to say The word "aman" is pronounced in Arabic (أمان) "aman". In Arabic it means tranquility (security) serenity
I would imagine that many men could learn to appreciate and even thrive in the undying lands, living there as guests. Especially if they came later in life, after many hardships, the way Bilbo and Frodo did. I agree though that a settlement or larger society of men would founder, and those born there would certainly resent the seemingly unnatural passage of time.
What's most interesting to me is that at first the Edain were accepting of death, for when Bëor died (Page 149 of the Silmarillion) it was said that "But Bëor had willingly abandoned life and died in peace". This probably means that at first the Edain were, due to not being tainted by Morgoth's influence, able to embrace their gift?
Beor the Old knew his time was come and accepted his death, something the Elves were shocked by, as no one had killed him. The Edain, like all Men had a seed of Morgoth in them , but Beor lived his life which was mostly hardship in getting the House of Beor to Beleriand, remaining humble and calm. There were other Men not so calm, like the group of Men who decided to leave Beleriand altogether and go back east, or Turin Turambar, who was heroic but easily manipulated by Glaurung and Morgoth, killing himself in shame and grief. The Numenoreans however, died in a more special way, by greeting death as it came, surrendering their life in peace without feeling old or burdened, basically committing the chillest suicide ever. Beor simply died as an old man would, but the Numenoreans left the world neither old or withered.
The "Gift of Men" is the element of Tolkein's writing that I struggle with. The idea was to have two separate races - elves and men - that were equal but different. And yet this seems to me to be manifestly untrue. Elves can live forever, unburdened by death. They used their immortality to build great realms, craft great artifacts like the Simarils, and on and on the benefits run. Man? Oh, they die and go somewhere beyond Arda. Well, what is so good about this place 'beyond Arda'? Not a word on that. So these two races are not equal but different; one is simply better. Elves are immortal, unphased by disease or old age. And men are worse; they are mortal, on the whole generally weaker and less capable, vulnerable to disease, prisoners of circumstances of their birth, and of course uniquely susceptible to corruption by Morgoth and then later Sauron, and why? Because this "Gift" sucks.
Yes, this 'gift' rethoric always seem as nothing more than echo of how Tolkien was coping with his own mortality. Also elves are portrayed as obviously superior 'master race', any way for others to cope with them is by numerical superiority (which is taken to the extreme by orcs).
Not to mention, Men are largely unable to use magic at all while elves are particularly gifted with magic. Even Aragorn's healing powers are questionable; it's kind of more like knowing first aid than being a healer.
@@novacorponline Great point. Aragon is in just about every way the 'ideal man' of the setting, and while his contributions were not small, they are still overshadowed by other elves. If even the very best human ever isn't enough to change the paradigm, who possibly could?
The key to understanding it is Tolkien's deep Christian faith. This "place beyond Arda" is essentially the Christian concept of heaven, i.e. being close(r) to or with God (Eru). The Elves, for all their beauty and immortality, cannot leave Arda and will *end* with Arda. Men's souls will, on the other hand, be truly immortal and eternally with God. I can understand why he called it a gift even though I am an atheist. But I also appreciate this may be difficult for people to accept if they don't share Tolkien's vantage point on religious faith.
What about Tuor? He went to the Undying Lands with his wife, Idril. He was a mortal, though Edain. Did Tolkien explain this in the same essay? I haven't read "Morgoth's Ring" in years, looks like I need to go back and read it.
This idea is explored deeply in the Highlander series...that's why The Prize was mortality. The ability to have children, grow old, and finally have a peaceful death.
Tell that to most Atheist seeing Mortality as a disease to be killed. Not a prize. Even if the author was less religiously inclined, they'd call it a death apologist work.
I think it's good to note that the men of Numenor originally embraced death and saw it as a blessing, often choosing to die willingly rather than continue living a longer life when they could. And the Oathbreakers where what they really wanted was a final death, to be free of their oath so they could pass from the mortal world. Their spirits had a sort of immortality, but what they wanted was death.
This explanation feels like a lot of mental gymnastics to justify why men were the only ones to die and leave. It's kinda effed up to just expect Men to accept it with no explanation while other things got to live forever
You wouldn’t actually want to live forever. That would be hell. Imagine not being able to die. That’s more horrifying to me than death itself which is often feared.
I always wondered why Arwen had to forsake immortality to be with Aragorn even though it was obvious she was still going to outlive him? Couldn't they just got married for a few decades with Arwen leaving when he dies? Elrond could've even waited for her. I am assuming this was a requirement from the gods but what's the story behind it?
Basically, half human/half elves were given a choice between living as an elf or a human. Arwen being such as a descendant of Elron Halfelven was given this choice. To be with Aragon, she had to choose a mortal life. Elron choose to life as an elf. His brother choose to live as a man and become a king of men.
Sorry i just want to point out that the legendary Tuor of house Hador in the first age? Lord Elronds grandfather on his father, Erändils side is the ONLY man to be granted access to Aman and more so..Tuor, not a half-elven but a mortal man of house Hador was granted to be counted among the Eldar since they saw him as practiaclly family and he married the elf princess of Gondolin, Idril. Tuor was well liked by both the Valar ulmo and rose in favour with the elfs of Gondolin. So there is acutally ONE exampel of a man in Tolkiens works that was granted the fate of the Eldar as a mortal man and to live with them in Aman. That is intresting.
the way it is written is apocryphal, and that Tuor was accepted as one of the Firstborn is what the 'author' suggests, as no one saw him ever again. Unlike Earendil, who is explicitly converted into an Elf, Tuor just vanishes from the text. This way we don't know and have to believe the narrator. Tuor is absent when his son arrives in Valinor with the Silmaril and doesn't even return with him to fight the War of Wrath. It could be that he just died a 'guest' death like the Ringbearers would later on.
True immortality really would be a curse, because as much as I'd like to say I'd want to live forever right now, I might feel quite differently a thousand years from now.. Its a dark thought, but if you truly lived on forever there might be a time where you feel like you've truly experienced everything life has to offer, that there is no sensation or extreme stimulus in existence that you haven't already experienced either in more number than you can remember or in such a truly profound way once upon a time that feeling something like that again is simply impossible, like the love of a soul mate who is now gone or is an entirely different person from the one they were 1,000 years ago.. Perhaps as a "young" person of just a few hundred years of age you were quite optimistic about the world, perhaps you were excited to see it change and evolve steadily into the better world you had hoped for as a child, but instead you lived to see a slow, painful, and irreversible path of self destruction, or maybe a massive disaster or series of global events that completed upheaved the world's bright future for thousands of years more, if not indefinitely.. If you ask me, if I wanted a immortality of any kind, I'd ask for the ones they give you in The Sims. Just live on forever, eternally youthful, until you can go press an internal button somewhere that turns on aging. If you're tired of life, let yourself fade a little bit and finally experience what its like to have a body that grows old... and if the world magically changes, just go turn off aging again until you get bored in a few hundred years. That'd be ideal.
This poses some good questions. If in our universe we had immortality how would the effect us humans? Would what's currently important to us change? How would we think about the planet? Would we be more willing to build space ships and go look for other species? Could we do it without abusing the universe and each other?
I love to think that this was one of Miyazaki's inspirations for the Undead in Dark Souls, how becoming undying and losing their will to endure would leave them to become empty vessels as Hollows. Then again that sort of got retconned in DS3.
Fascinating analysis and impeccable narration. Thank you for this content rediscovered Tolkien again thanks to you. This reminds me a lot of non canonical narration of the book of Enoch when Angels became jealous of mortal men. Phenomenal Tolkien changes it up in his world building. I prefer the gift of the elves, however, all beings have a function, a purpose, from the insect to mankind. Mortality for both hunter and hunted, so acceptance or understanding of the function and purpose of the specific race, elven, man, dwarvish and so on, I think is the key in Tolkien’s writing to mitigating or quenching said desires of power, immortality etc… For example, much like Galadriel passed the test of the ring of power, as you’ll recall she desired power, in the end she accepted her part or purpose in middle earth and she diminished in power, but her banishment from the undying lands was lifted, boom she returned to the undying lands. Much like the hobbits too, both Bilbo and Frodo were resistant and rebuked the evil of the ring, so another test that they managed to pass…and boom off to the undying lands, anyways those are my thoughts, thank you and stay safe.
When I first read The Lord of the Rings back in the early '70s (on my own accord, it was not an assignment of the public school curriculum, at least not in the Kansas City North School District at the time), I found many things quite fascinating and admirable about the Elvish people, but the gift of immortality was not particularly one of them. In fact, it barely registered in my teenage psyche compared to their other attributes. Upon later musings, immortality in a finite world would eventually render all things uninteresting. Even Abby Road, e.g., would likely become boring after 42000 listenings or so.
I definitely prefer the gift of mortality. living in this world forever would be too boring. In any case, I would have liked to be a full-blooded Numenorean and live for 200 or 250 years. excellent video. Thank you very much for developing the theme.
Yeah... but we're not talking about THIS world, are we? We're talking about Tolkien's world. A world full of wonders, mysteries and the fantastic. You're telling me in THAT world, you'd want to live a shortened life? Idk man... it feels like men got a raw deal. But I agree with having a Numenorean lifespan.
Things would be so, so much easier if Eru allowed Men some knowledge re. their fate after death and they didn't have to take it entirely on faith that they didn't cease to exist or, even worse, go into the Void to be with Morgoth. Presumbably, though, there's a reason why this is a secret.
Men are not to understand the meaning of life after death, because the majority of humans do not muse about these things. It is Men who have fought over petty things like bloodlines, property and differences in language. Anyone with that knowledge would likely be disbelieved or even persecuted. Even among Elves there is no knowledge of that,since they have no afterlife as such. That's the idea of faith, to encourage the best of the here and now. If Men knew they would be leaving the world, they would pretty much do nothing in this one.
Elves were %10000 favored by eru. Men can't live with the ainur and live in peace away from their enemies and across the sea and live forever...but are expected to fight in dagor dagorath and deliver the killing blow to morgoth. I'd be part of the crew trying to take over Aman
I used to think that. These days I can start to see why the elves are jealous of men's fate. Maybe we'd feel differently after looking at the same landscape for 10,000 years? At some point it would start to be intolerable.
@@GeekZoneMT Take some shrooms and get a taste of the bliss of ego annihilation, comfort from anxiety, and appreciation for the time left here without fear.
Immortality would be a horrible experience. Over thousands of years you will experience many bad events which will accumulate and make you depressed or bitter.
I tend to agree with that. Elves were absolutely favored by Eru. Think about it; they were the fairest, wisest, and [some of] most knowledgeable of all creatures in Middle Earth. They were more graceful, more skillful in arts and in combat. They built places of extreme beauty and "magic." Not to mention they were immortal (although they could be killed in battle or of a broken heart), and they were promised to live with gods and angels in the end. Men, while having a hardier constitution, have MUCH shorter lifespans, are more prone/susceptible to corruption and evil, are less skilled and knowledgeable (the exception to that rule were the Numenoreans), and in the end, their fate remained relatively unknown. But they were forbidden to enter the realm of the gods, despite having been largely on very good terms with the Elves, having fought next to them in crucial battles, and men being ultimately responsible for defeating the ancient evil in the land (Sauron).
You know, this puts a different perspective on the curse of the Oathbreakers. Their spirits must have ached to leave Middle Earth. Makes you wonder if Isildur knew what weight his curse held.
Probably saved it with the last connotation that the immortality given to the elves was bound to their liking of the unchanged aspect of the world, forever stagnant, and if it is so, then THAT immortality is indeed a sad one, as you don't see further than the limits imposed on the existing world. On the other hand the mortality of Men allows this "fortune seeker" and the need for change and innovation, so I'd prefer this route, albeit longer, though you would always say "longer" I suppose. Abiding by tolkien's rules if I could be an immortal elf and SEE the changes made by Men and/or other races I would happily be immortal, however I wouldn't much enjoy immortality in the Undying lands. On the other hand being a mortal sounds like an adventure, but this is all assuming you know the afterlife that awaits you, otherwise its hard to say "yeh you enjoy life.......for a while then you're gone lol", in that scenario frick mortality and adventure lmao if you're gone and "you" cease to utterly exist, might as well be immortal in w/e setting. On the broader spectrum and IRL a bit, immortality is desirable at an individual level and we all say it would be awesome, but even if you discard the fact it would mean endless wars due to overpopulation, it would mean stagnation of evolution really, but we can't fathom 100 years into the future much less 50k years.
Could the gift of man after death be coming into the personal presence of Eru Illuvatar? Personally i think i would choose the gift of man. Mostly to explore and know that which could be beyond Arda. For there wont be much New to know and explore if one were to stay in Arda.
@@spacewiz163 It was told to Men by the voice of Eru in the early days, but because of the lies of Morgoth, Men stopped believing it, save the few who became the three Houses of Edain.
@@spacewiz163 Maybe because he planned to let only some men in his presence, like the faithful, and men like heirs of Elendil (you know I don't think he would let men like ar-pharazon or any evil men in his presence) . And so if he tells everyone about the true gift given to men all men even the most faithful would become arrogant and thus unworthy or something like that. It's like a test, he does not tell and watch who will behave like Aragorn or Grimma and then at the end give the salary to all according to their choice.
The "Gift of Men" is indeed a huge contridiction. Because if morality was a "gift" then why were the loyal Numenoreans "blessed" with 3x the normal lifespan of normal "lesser" men?
AND!!!!! If elves wanted to be wed to a man/woman they could choose to have a mortal life. AND Elronds brother elros got to not only rule as the first king of numenor as an elf, he too got to choose the gift of men
Elves couldn't choose mortality. Only half-elves, like Elros, Elrond and Arwen had any choice, because they had both men and elves in ancestry. Have you even been paying attention to the lore, dude?
@@KateeAngel aragorn was a descendant of elros and didn't get to choose immortality. Technically arwen and aragorn are distant cousins. Aragorn was a descendant of the kings of numenor and elros being the first king of numenor makes him technically have some elvish blood in him
I mean maybe a drop or two of elvish blood but he didn't get to choose to live immortally, and I think he would if it meant he had the choice and could live with arwen in Aman.. he was always doubtful and grim about his destiny and at one point was contemplating on letting her go to the gray Havens
@@KateeAngel Luthien was the daughter of a high elf and a Maia and yet she did get to choose mortality. It was also the same with Arwen. They didn't have that choice at first, but because they fell in love with mortals, they were later able to become mortal themselves.
I LOVE your channel you guys have taught me about so much more of the fantastic and in my opinion very spiritual world of middle earth and EVERY little detail that’s goes with it!!!
I would still love the undying lands, I finally would be able to have a pet bird, which I wouldn't have to bury one day 🙄 Also listening to stories of elves and Valar would be great. I wouldn't envy them, I fear endless existence, and certainly don't want it at all.
None of that changes the fact that Ilúvatar showed favouritism towards the Elves in their creation. Man was made to be a lesser creature, therefore man was right to reject him.
This type of thinking is how the devil became the devil in the more interesting stories. Which of course is a large inspiration for Tolkiens creations.
@@jakecollin5499 It is true though. God or whoever he was if he's even real to begin with was a selfish prick who plays favorites. No wonder more and more people are starting to embrace atheism.
In the afterlife they were not bound to the earth as immortal creatures r. So in death is where the gift lied for those who were judged favorably. Think of Aragorns words to Arwen on his death bed. We are not bound foreverto the circles of the world and beyond them is more than memory. Tbh men were more corruptible than all creatures so I'm not sure if immortality for them would be good for the earth.
Death is a gift, Is the stupidest thing to tell another being. You don't see elves being envious of mortals. You see them run back to the west when their rings of power fade.
I've wondered if Men were originally part of the plan at all? In a perfect world, the elves would be happy to live forever in peace. Was it Melkors meddling in the music that caused Eru to shift gears and create Men to live for a time in an imperfect world?
Nope, because everything Melkor did, ultimately played in to Iluvatar's original design. "And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."
Right!? I think Eru planned to make both, but didn't know how to resolve that soul/ body problem and Melkors' song provided the answers, so Eru adjusted for it in the second song "theme" . Imo... .edit "theme"
That's exactly my thought as well, if everything went according to the original plan Arda wouldn't be affected in it's nature By melkor which would make everywhere a good place for elves to live. So what happens to me then ? Also if we ignore that and say that at least one part of the plan goes right which is all the elves answering the summons to valinor and leaving middle earth, what would happen to men then ? Will the valar go to war against morgoth for the sake of men or will they leave them to deal with it like they did in the second and third age. It's kind of going too deep into this but that's one fun part about it
@@meduseldtales3383 yes, but even though Melkor's plan of controlling the music is folly, he still managed to change things beyond what was originally planned in the music. Eru composed new themes to counter him.
I have two thoughts: one on my opinion on immortality and one in my opinion on how it was handled by Tolkien/Eru Illuvitar. First I think living a long life is good and living forever is a curse. Easy. Second I think Eru Illuvitar basically tortured humans by giving elves immortality and realms of peace and the creating humans that specifically could not reap any benefits that the elves could. Eru Illuvitar was afraid they would want the better lives and lands that were straight up gifted to Elves when that was how it was designed.
To add to that, I seems to me that Eru used human souls to carry off some of Morgoth's taint. Clearly men were an after thought and not meant to be part of the world.
I'm sorry I just can't do it, I can't watch without you doing the narrations, your voice just added to the lore so much, I'll stay subbed but only check in to hope your back doing the voice over again. Really hope you get free enough to do it again soon.
Humans fear death but at the same time, we eventually grow tired of the uncaring world around us and death becomes, as Harry Potter says, a friend to us. Immortality is a soul-draining concept because you'd watch everything else die around you. Our minds can only handle so much of that. I write my own high fantasy world (known as All World) and while I have many long-lived species, there are only five specific characters that have true immortality (as far as time's passage goes). The five in question are the World Masters and their enduring lives are part of the purpose given to them by All World's creator-deity, the World Weaver. Their job is to guide an otherwise fallen world from the beginning of time to the very end of it. I made them all beasts since they can be trusted with that level of power and have greater fortitude over the soul-draining effects of Time's passage. Their immortality is tied to their planet. As long as it endures, they will as well. I make it no secret that the Masters are completely exhausted and worn out after only 6,000 years. The only things keeping them going right now are their various relationships and knowing that none of it will last forever. They may not know the exact "when" but they have a clear view of what the End will look like for them. They will survive the seven-year-long Tribulation War, the week-long Battle of Armageddon, linger for another forty days while they travel to where they were given Masterdom, and then die (triggering the Apocalypse). They appreciate what they will never have until the appointed time and agree that their immortality is a blessing and a curse.
In the lore of LoTR, Eru Illuvatar has man only living for a time on Arda then they die. If they are faithful to him, their spirits join him in singing the new music along with the Valar, and they will be with him forever and everlasting.
I disagree with saying the Undying lands were not influenced by Morgoth. He attacked and killed the Two Trees with Ungoliant and he spread evil ideas to Feanor and his sons. I believe some Elves killed other elves to get ships to chase Morgoth. I think it was more that the two kindreds were different and followed different paths.
Dear GZ, great video on men and immortality. One thought as an add for future video on this topic. The blessing of mortality, from a spiritual benefit perspective, goes back to why Eru made them mortal to begin with. The Sil./Tolkien states men were made this way to bring energy and vitality to middle-earth due to their nature to build and expand and explore the corners of the created world. The comparative brevity of their life, is consistent with the nature of their spirits to achieve this purpose. Elves seemed to have too much contentment (minus Morgoth's marring of almost everything) at pace almost too deliberate, serene and slow-paced even for Eru. Not a design flaw, but the counter-balance of what men brought to the energies of the world are apparently a design fulfillment- instead of design correction. All the best to you. ~The LoreMaster
So basically, Tolkien’s men aren’t at all the same as us men. Also, Tolkien realized that the immortality of some creatures left a giant loophole in his story, and decided to patch it up with strange bullshit and fancy words.
Find me a book series perfect without one plot hole. There literally isn't any on this planet. I doubt you could even write a children's story, since you're too pessimistic and vain.
So... None of this explains how causing humans to age, and die is a gift. It just says we were also cursed with spirits that spoiled like milk and had to be thown out of the world itself to avoid stinking up the place. So, humans were cursed twice.
Interesting, but I can't help to regard Eru almost as much as a tyrant as Melkor. He create inescapable fate to people and races, none of them having a say in it or being asked if they liked their gifts. At least Elves could chose mortality, either by killing themselves or going to a hopeless war or as Arwen marrying a human. Humans had no choice whatsoever to ever change their status. I have a hard time to imagine any human seeing age and death as a gift. So Eru, being immortal, gave a "gift", mortality, which he himself had not the SLIGHTEST sense what that actually meant to endure.
Understand something about that choice though. It by no means is a good choice. If anything, not having the choice is more merciful. The premise is that death is not a gift but a curse. With that premise in mind look at arwen. She made a choice to forsake living forever, but in doing that, had to suffer two deaths. The first by giving up an immortal life to suffer eventual death. And second, being that elves having immortality then seek to preserve what they have forever. When the mortality strikes the one she died once for, being grieved at losing what she must have desired to have forever then caused her to go and die out of her own grief essentially. So she died a second time. Because times changing is essentially against the very spirit of a being thats meant to live forever and preserve what they built forever, causing a death of the spirit and body. So the reason not having the choice is more merciful is to imagine yourself in either beings shoes. Men know for a fact what their fate is, so they can truly live that life to the fullest, and know what path to take, and that instead of just preserving what is there, they have the push out the door to use the infinite potential they have to create something more grand and better. Whereas by having the choice elves have, you either get to pick the pain of death by either giving up immortality, or death of their souls by seeing everything you sacrificed immortality for change or disappear, but most likely they would get both. Or they can choose to give up an existence they want most with those whom they want to share with it most, and go on to the undying lands living out what their spirits goal is. Imagine having that choice all the time, and the suffering it would cause you to have to make, and whether you are making the right decision or not. By taking the choice off the board, you essentially give permission to that being to fully live out who they are with what they got as they desire rather than vasilate between the existence of what they have vs what they may think they want, while squandering what's right in front t of them as the numenorians did, to their downfall of arrogance and jealousy. Two things that would be taken off the table by essentially being made to stay in your lane so to speak.
He himself said "no music can be made that hath not its uttermost source in me." All the suffering that people like to blame on Melkor was really Eru's idea the whole time. All of the Ainur represented some part of Eru's mind, and Melkor represented the largest share of it. It's also shown that there's nothing Eru loves more than weeping.
The thing is, since eleves spirits were bound to Arda even if their physical bodies were killed their spirts would still be bound to Arda and would go to The Halls of Mandos and be rembodied after death. In a case like Arwens she was half elf and could chose a mortal life, or an immortal life and she chose a mortal life. So elves didnt have a choice unless they were half elves.
This is one of my favourit videos from this channel so far, although Karl was amazing as narrator, you are doing a wonderful job too (I follow this cannel for a long time, but still don't know your name, sorry!). I must also add that subjects evolving Elves are among my favourit topics always (ever since I started to read Tolkien in my teenage years I became fascinated with the Elves' stories, specially the Noldor ones)... So what can I say more? Well thank you very very much for all the information and metioning the sources, you've doing a wonderfull work! Cheers from Portugal!
Elves, one hundred percent. Beautiful, wise and immortal sounds more better. They're literally the favored race by Eru. Plus you'll have all the time to master multiple skills/crafts and languages.
which will do jack all when dagor dagorath destroys the world. elves are tied to the world, and thus perish with it. men however are not tied to the world like the elves or the ainur from the timeless hall that entered. humans are eru's favored children as he severed them from fate, and thus have their own free will and can make their own destinies. the gift of death is in actuality a gift of leaving the world for eru's halls. that's what Tolkien's writings seems to support.
@@cr90captain89 well atleast, elves fade and die. No afterlife, thus no pain and suffering, only peace where they rest forever instead of men having the fate of "oh we got to live in a boring hall until we sing for the world again even after we die" even the old guy who is tired of living still is existing as a soul singing for the birth of a new world. Elves all the way.
@@GuyChooo I heard they became ghost after. I'm not sure. Elves does have amazing gifts. But men directly go to Eru himself. If the world dies elves will perish in nothingness.
I understand what those who want immortality feel like, my hatred for death is extreme, so much that I find it very hard to enjoy a mortal life. Somehow it feels like, as long as my life will end one day, it's the same as not having existed to begin with, like everything is just an illusion. That thought drives me mad sometimes.
Would you prefer the fate of the Elves or that of Men? And do you think that Men's fear of death was unfounded? As always subtitles are available and feedback is welcome!
Elves definitely had it better. Live forever amongst the gods in a land uncorrupted away from chaos and turmoil
Prefer the gift of men
mhm true, though immortality would probably get tiring eventually
I'd probably prefer the fate of the Numenoreans (if I could choose), as they should have been. Mortality is what makes time so precious, because we only have a finite amount of time to accomplish and achieve everything we want to in life. A general lifespan probably couldn't encompass everything we'd want to do (at least, not if you're a massive procrastinator like me), but a lifespan three times as long would more than likely give us ample time to pursue everything we'd like to in life. Immortality seems like it would eventually be boring and could also be painful if you were living in Middle Earth and had to live to see many of your mortal friends die whilst you lived on (although that would also be the case with an extended lifespan I suppose, but not to the same extent).
Because they may corrupt it. Dwarves and elves were different and awoke first. Makes sense to me that the most mortal of the races wouldn’t be allowed in
The conflict between body and spirit is how you end up with....Gollum.
He both hated his life and feared to leave it.
sounds a lot like me
The very focus of corruption by *Morgoth.*
You just descrived myself....
the Ring gave him life and refused him death, he lived so long he wanted to die but wanted to exist as well.
I always wondered what happened to gollums spirit. The valar reject saruman but gollum was corrupted by the ring he didn't originally set out to be evil. Had he not found the ring he most likely would've been a pretty normal Hobbit. He played a pivotal role in destroying the ring even if he didn't mean to do it but again literally anybody in his position would've fallen to the same level. I always wondered if he would be forgiven
Technically, Ar-Pharazon and those of his men who landed in Valinor did achieve immortality. Just not in the way they had hoped. They weren't killed by the landslide that covered them, but rather imprisoned there until the ending of the world. So TECHNICALLY, Sauron was honest with them when he told them that they could seize immortality by travelling to Aman...
How about Tuor?
@@andythecrimson8877
What about him? Did Sauron talk to him about Valinor?
@@Raz.C no but he did go and receive the gift of immortality
@@Ancientneutrality
The whole point of the post was about how Sauron was- technically- honest with the Numenorian king when he told him that immortality could be seized by travelling to Valinor. Bringing up Tuor either ignores or fails to recognise the who point of the comment.
Nerd
Iluvatar: "Death is not a curse, it is a gift."
Man: "How is it a gift?"
Iluvatar: "I designed you so that if you didn't die on your own you would basically torture yourself to death eventually. Thus, your natural death is a mercy and blessing."
Man: "I'm not sure you understand what a gift is..."
Yea, seems dumb if you put it that way. It seems like a big part of the explanation of how all of this works was left out.
Ideas of reincarnation and spiritual progression through numerous lives, would give this whole story a much nicer look.
inb4 "that's not mentioned anywhere in Tolkiens writings", sure dude, you win. Have a nice day.
Under these principles we understand man as it is now. Our limitations are what give us desire to progress.
The elves live in harmony but also stagnation.
Humans live to make life brighter for their offspring. We grow generationally.
It is our nature to fight entropy itself. So to be immortal is a curse upon man.
Because with death conquered medicine stagnates. Technology stagnates. And in the end the sun is not eternal. We meet our end with heat and death.
So we find that our deaths are that which spurs us to change. To adapt. To understand everything we can. Unlike the elves we dont live in harmony. We combat and force nature to submit. And I find a true and honest beauty in that fight.
@@infinitetroll03 nahh it was even simpler. It not death that was gift, but what happen next. Mostly all VAlar and Mayar when entered Arda they couldnt get out of it.
And so are elves. BAsicaly VAlar, MAyar and Evles bound to world even if they die(lost physical body) they just turned into ghost. Elves become ghosts in MAndos Hall.
And Valar or MAyar could regain physical form with time.
But only Men when die could get to Iluvutar realm where MAyar and Valar came originally into created by them world. So basicaly men are just pasenger in this world, they dont belong to her.
It was gift cause even MAnve or Morgot could return to Iluvatar realm untill end of World. BAsicaly they all chained their and there is prophesy that elves, mayar and valar would reunite with men in Iluvatar realm and would create secong song: Beter World without Melkor discord.
Basicaly men get first from party other would join them later.
But most men afraid of that cause for them death was jump into uknown and so they didnt know they would just basicaly go to Heaven where Valar came from
And men forget that cause they lost faith and conection with Iluvator especialy late Numenor.
@@rimanm6934 Maybe the gods should have actually visited the men frequently to prevent faith from wavering?
Or Eru should have explained carefully what death entails to men and correct the lies Melkor spread?
@@durshurrikun150 they kinda did. People in First Era knew. For example Hurin when captured by Melkor said: you have no power over me beyond circle of this world.
Melkor was angry and wanted scared him saying: there is nothing beyond circle of this world.
Which Hurin didnt belive that why Melkor tormented him instead.
Cause if there was nothing where Melkor came form than? Ancient people were more spiritual and more conected to Eru. He was so inpresed by them he gave Numenorian extended life: 200 year regular and 300-500 Elros Dynasty. But people are easier to influance. It not even fear of death but they got so much power they became too atached to world they didnt wont live it. Even though because they so powerfull they wasnt suposed lived so long.
For example Numenorian were so strong Sauron forces just run aways when saw Ar-Pharazon army.
Vanity and pride is l what lead people stray. They worshiped Eru directly. But forgot that all. How Eru esle should have explain that? They were so strounge that even Valar couldnt stop them so Eru directly intervined and realised he gave people too much power and they strayed too much. So longlivity was taken away. And only few reagain it.
Faith wavered long before fear of death. It was selfishness. They knew gods exist and knew Eru exist. Coruption and desire for more power that wavered faith, long before that.
Also that doesnt mean men were evil.) Elves before them did even more bad stuff for jewels.) Both elves and men and even valar had their flawes. Only seems Eru was perfect.
What gift did you get from Eru Iluvatar?
Valar: We got to sing creation into existence! And we're immortal.
Ents: We got immortality too, and amazing strength!
Elves: We got immortality and a holy land to live in after Middle-earth gets messed up partly because of us!
Men: I got a rock.
Men: I got a rock, which I can't fully explore and settle because if I move on the wrong direction, then Eru gets mad and starts sinking parts of said rock...sooo...you guys sacrificing elven children to Melkor tomorrow?
Men: We also have the potential to create super advanced technology and immortality serums if given enough time.
Men got to transcend the world for some greater purpose. Maybe it was the failing of Eru Iluvatar that man did not appreciate or understand the significance of his reward at the end of his life
@@yseson_ terribly communicated by a being who is supposedly infallible. Exactly my problem with his real world parallel.
That rock becomes a an eternal MOUNTAIN
Oh, they don't??
There goes my plan of running around on the green fields of Valinor, enjoying some delicious Valinorean ice cream.
😂😂
I just want to enjoy some elvish strange.
@@mikekochendorfer7965 Or hot Elvish babes😂.
@@nicholasmaude6906 "He would grow soon to condemn his manhood, and hate those more richly endowed."
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Or a moldy bread (☞ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)☞
It's pretty funny how even Manwe admits that part of the reason men can't live in Aman is because he and his followers would treat them like vermin. It really helps to flesh out some characters who are too often seen as stuffy and too perfect to relate to.
And another reason why j think men are weaker
where does he say that??
Wait what
It makes you hate the valar, and rightfully so
Out of context Tolkien:
"He would grow soon to contempt his manhood and hate those more richly endowed."
Yeah, I caught that phallic imagery too.
Lmao dudes that become trans wishing they were a woman
@@DefecTec it's like
"Where's the vagina"
It's so weird
This Name is too epic to change
@@DefecTec not 'dudes' they are called 'freaks'
And 'condemn his manhood'
Sympathetic to men. The elves revolt and screw up constantly, and the Valar forgive them over and over. Men suffer and are corrupted by a Maiar (who should be the Valar’s problem), and their greatest civilization is destroyed and the survivors are left to fight Sauron, who they’re not even capable of killing.
Same. The valar are extremely biased towards men in favor of elves. Manwe said only if a half elf came before him asking for aid against morgoth would he go to war. Then told said half elf if he didn't choose to be an elf he would kill him for being a mortal who dared set foot in his holy land. The valar wouldn't go to war for the sake of man yet they went to war for the sake of the elves. Manwe even got a chewing out by Eru for delaying the war for so long and placing conditions for the valar to go to war. Saying if he truly knew his mind he would have gone to war knowing he would fix everything for the war would have been just in saving the mortals from morgoth.
Also as you said they made men deal with sauron when the istari could have beaten him. Hell tolkien even states in one of his letters Gandalf could have forced saurons will from the ring thus extremely weaking him. There are multiple beings the valar could have sent to deal with sauron yet didn't.
@@chriswilder9719 regarding Gandalf and the Ring did Tolkien say that he WOULD have succeeded or was it only a possibility? I'm guessing there would be severe consequences for failing. Also how weakened are we talking. Is it close to the level of power loss from destroying the Ring? Or is it more like losing an "arm?"
@@sr71silver Tolkien said he would have succeeded. The catch would have been a good lord worse than any dark lord. Gandalf would have made the penalty for any broken law severe and the standard for goodness would be close to unattainable. To the point sauron would seem like a good trade off. And it would have had been the same as if it was destroyed. He would have been purged from the ring and his connection to it severed
Men are Eru Iluvitar's "favorite" indeed. Isn't it obvious?
@@level9drow856 also if death is really a gift, why is death the punishment for a mortal stepping foot into Valinor? They were gonna kill Earandil until they decided he’d be counted as an elf since he was half Noldor.
If there's going to be a discussion on which is better, the Gift of Men or the Gift of Elves, I think the best person to ask would be Arwen. Her last words to Aragorn before he died were: "But I say to you, King of the Numenoreans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive."
Sure, the Silmarillion states that the Elves and even the Valar envy the mortality of Men, but Men envy the _immortality_ of the Elves and the Valar. And seeing as Arwen is the only individual in Tolkien's Legendarium to have actually experienced _both_ and given her opinion on the matter, I'd say she's the closest thing we have to an expert on the topic.
Before Arwen, there was Elros, her uncle, who also chose mortality, but he welcomed and embraced the gift. Probably because he's just willing to surrender to the will of Eru without any question?
Arwen was not the only one. Luthien was the first. Half elven, half Maia. Then chose a mortal life with Beren.
Elros and Elrond's parents, Earendil and Elwing, chose next. They were both half elven. But they grew at the rate of mortal men and most likely would have had a mortal lifespan (considering the story Tolkien wrote, that may or may or not be cannon, of one of the elf and men relationships, all the descendants after were all mortals with elven blood in them). In a way, they lived a mortal life among the elves. Elwing chose to be an elf. Earendil was originally going to choose to be mortal, but instead chose to be an elf for the sake of his wife.
Then Elros chose. Considering what he and his brother had to go through from a very young age, I think starting at two years old, I don't blame him for not wanting to keep lingering in Middle Earth with his trauma and knowing what the elves had done in the first age and before that. He decided to live the rest of his life in peace and then move on.
@@ellerj641 Can't imagine what it was like for Elros to setup the Kingdom of Numenor. Must've been stressful, even for one such as him
@@ellerj641 That's not what happened to Luthien. When Beren was killed, she willed herself to die as well. She went to the Halls of Mandos and sung such a mournful and beautiful song that Mandos himself was moved. He gave them her a second chance at life, but she would be mortal (Manwe managed to get Beren brought back from the dead as well). They lived as mortals again, and died as mortals.
Arwen was living as an Elf, but was Half Elven and given a choice. She married Aragorn and chose to be counted among Men. At the end, she wasn't ready to give up her life, but had to.
@@benu_bird Hello! Luthien did choose. Manwe gave her the choice, to be freed from his halls early as a reward for her deeds and to live in peace in Valinor, or to return to Middle Earth with Beren but she would have to become mortal. Luthien refused to depart from her beloved, so she chose to be mortal and bring Beren back so they could be together, then be together forever when they both passed beyond the circles of the world.
The fate of Men isn't necessarily the less desirable as Tolkien wrote that by time even the elves would envy them for not having to endure age after age of the world. Also Men will play an important role in the second music of the Ainur whereas the Elves may completely vanish when Arda is reforged because they are so strongly bound to it
Yeah, longterm the immortality of the Elves would surely grow tiresome
irl 100yo people wish for death, and their lives are great. You can imagine how depressing a numenorean living 200 years or so in middle earth right next to sauron and the witch king, let alone elves living thousands of years. You'd go utterly mad
I think there in lies the point Tolkien wrote for the two races. they both have something to envy each other for, and think the other doesn't appreciate their amazing gift
Elves think Men don't appreciate that they get to experience the world in a short blip of excitement, adventure and curiosity, and that having a finite lifespan where their spirits aren't tied to the world means they get to enjoy the lives they lead much more
Men think Elves don't appreciate how immortality means they never have to leave everything they've come to love behind, and how much they love this world, and if only they could spend more time with it instead of succumbing to the wiles of old age, disease or battle
And then you have the Dwarves and Ents, just looking at these two from an inbetween spot
@@thecpt6265 this is why Elrond desperately didn't want Arwin to go with Aragorn. Because regardless of her choice, both of them would suffer greatly
If she remains an immortal Elves, she'd get to watch her love become old and die, along with her son, and their children, and everyone else around her, and she'd mourn and weep eternally as she witnesses everything mortal wither as she does not, cursed to wander through a world that eternally changes around her. you can see how Elrond would feel about his daughter going through such a terrible kind of suffering
And if she becomes a mortal woman, she'd get to live and die with Aragorn, and Elrond would never get to see his daughter...ever again
And for an immortal Elf, there is no worse thing to happen than to witness your child grow old and die when you do not
@@enderman_of_d00m24 Yes, but I would leave out the ents. While Tolkien seems to have been unsure about their nature at first he later made it pretty clear that they were not among the "children" but spirits bound to earthly forms like the eagles.
reminds me of a quote from interview with the vampire: Armand: Do you know how few vampires have the stamina for immortality? How quickly they perish of their own will? The world changes, we do not. Therein lies the irony that finally kills us
Very well said, great reference.
Ah, Lestat! Loves to poke his finger in Armand’s eye whenever he can.
the irony is that Lestat (apart from killing for blood) is a lover of life, enjoying things like music, wine, dancing and women. Things that are always around and have entertained people for eternity
@@SantomPh in the end, if said vampire still have the same brains like ours, he will soon tire of life and chose death.
To quote the 10th Doctor, "I'm old enough to know that a longer life isn't always a better one. In the end, you just get tired. Tired of the struggle, tired of losing everyone that matters to you, tired of watching everything turn to dust. If you live long enough, Lazarus, the only certainty left is that you'll end up alone." From The Lazarus Experiment".
The fading of the elves who remain in middle earth is a pretty shitty fate too.
They can just leave Middle Earth and go to Aman though
@@kebabmega6349 but not every elves can reach Aman
Well if the whole World is going to disappear someday. And if the elves and their spirit are "bound" to it, they will also disappear one day.
So ... they are not truly immortal. Their destiny is to live ... and disappear forever with the World itself, which is also a curse.
If the human spirit goes elsewhere when they leave their flesh, (we don't know where) it might actually be better.
Yep, and the beings of the Undying Lands came to envy Men for this very reason.
Eternal existence would seem more like a curse, to be honest....
Although I like the twist in your idea,: the ones thought to be immortal are actually not and the ones thought to be mortal are really immortal
I read somewhere that they would be able to leave the world after it had ended. Men could "leave early" as it were, but the elves had to wait until the end of the world to leave.
The Tolkiengateway has this listed as "serial longevity" precisely for this reason.
Yes it is the very reason why the Valar and Elves envy Men yet Men also envy them.
"How dare they refuse the gift? Time to nuke them from orbit!" -Eru
"tactically dropped water bomb incoming"- eru illuvatar
I mean, if Eru killed them all, they would promptly see what the gift they got actually was I guess.
@@blackmage665 exactly and also they never say the journey ends in death but is simply the start for men's journey
@@blackmage665 for men are favored by eru illuvatar
You know you're good at picking out gifts when you give the same thing as a reward and also as a punishment.
On my opinion about inmortality, this is what Captain Teaune, Keeper of the Pirate's Law said this to Jack.
*"It's now about living forever, Jackie. The trick is living with **_yourself_** forever."*
Such an awesome quote!
Shoot! That part's _EASY!_ _'I loves me some ME!'_
Hide the rum
People don't realize that the nature of the elves actually makes them profoundly limited in many ways. They don't change things. They don't advance. In many ways they lack the same level of free will which humans enjoy. Humans are meant for a higher purpose, that's why Eru wants them to leave Arda. They appear to have humble beginnings, but their increased ability to choose and cause change reveals that in the future beyond death they will surpass the elves.
I think you're only referring to the Vanyar/Teleri Elves but Noldor Elves are very much akin to Men than their own. The main reason why they revolted against the Valar in Valinor was they felt confined and were being held back in Valinor and they loved the wide spaces and freedom in ME as described by Melkor to them.
And this is why humans are the best fantasy race
@@ArJay1688 the Noldors should have had the gut to finish what Feanor started and stay in ME. Maybe they should build another hall of mandos in the ME or sth
@@ArJay1688 perhaps that's why the Noldor Elves built the strongest Elven realms? They did have a great motivator in Melkor's treachery. Mortal or Immortal, when a bastard murders the High King and steals the prized jewels of his firstborn son, now the new High King, you're gonna act rather human like and seek bloody vengeance against that monster
I mean, I'd consider the palantiri, several languages, their songs of power, etc, to be advancements. It's even said that the Elves perfect their craft over time to the point that others think they can do legit magic.
Of course it was unfair. Elves had a choice - they could have lived in Valinor. Both sindar and noldor made their choice to stay in the case of the first ones or go to Middle Earth in case of noldor no matter the suffering inflicted on them by Morgoth. People had no choice but to live on a spoiled land of Middle Earth and fight against Morgoth and Sauron. They were unwillingly used as a tool to weaken Morgoth - how could this be fair?
It's funny, Eru saying that Men weren't bound to Arda and therefore being destined to leave it, then throwing a hissy fit when Ar-Pharazôn wanted to explore.
They also did't have to stay in middle Erath until the end of the world , I think it fair
You are corrupted men
@@TheBayzent They were forbidden from sailing West.
Disclaimer: Sorry if I'm just writing the things mentioned in the video. I'm just tiping my thoughts before watching the video.
The great mistake men have when thinking avout the undying lands: Travelling there does NOT mean that they become immortal themselves. Undying lands basically means, that the immortal race (elves) lives there. Not that everything entering those lands becomes immortal. Just look at Frodo, Bilbo, Gimli and (later) Sam. All were allowed to travel there. Bilbo, Frodo and Sam as a reward for being ringbearers of the one ring, Gimli as a symbol of friendship between elves and dwarves. His friendship with Legolas basically ended a deep hatred that started with the murder of King Thingol of Menegroth in the first age. But all of the fore mortals that were allowed to enter the undying lands had to die at some point. They probably lives without any worries or illnesses until their end, but they had to die some day.
The undying lands were not designed as a thing prohibited to men in a evil way. They were made to make the very concept of immortality bearable to elves. Immortality might seem tempting to a race that has to die after a rather short live. But really living forever can be a heavier burden than death itself.
the hatred between Dwarves and Elves started even earlier, when the Sindar mistakenly hunted the Petty Dwarves as animals as they had never met speaking creatures they did not teach themselves before.
We have to note that apart from Frodo, all of the Ringbearers and Gimli were close to the end of their natural lives (Bilbo was well beyond it) , so their reward would be a brief period of bliss and tranquility before their departure from the world. Sam in particular lived an incredibly happy life, leaving only when Rosie his beloved wife died, The message is that one doesn't need immortality to be happy or great, one's achievements during their lifetime are enough. Legolas and Gimli discuss Men and their short-term gains and losses in 'Minas Tirith', saying that Men often fail at their promises but not of their seed. Gimli notes that the best stone in the city is the oldest and longest set. Minas Tirith, the city built by the Numenoreans was once mighty but is now the last one left after the fall of all the others, and is people are in their twilight- yet they are still around, even prospering after a fashion .Heroes like Bergerond and Faramir still exist, even mightier men like Imrahil. Yet they will all die, to be replaced by their heirs, perhaps to a less successful extent.
I like to believe mortals who live in the Undying Lands get to choose when they die.
Not all the Elves appreciated the unchanging nature of Undying Lands. Most Noldor were bothered by it for their nature too was to shape and change their surroundings. They were masters of building, reshaping and crafting.
@@GreenOlive54
This was only to make the Noldor craft weapons and distrust the Valar and each other. Their desire for crafting came from their friendship with Aule.
why is it that anyone who likes to craft in the Tolkien Legendarium always ends up being the most routee and restless?
@@enderman_of_d00m24 Because living in an unchanging land and to craft change do not go hand in hand.
Aule the craftsman gave them this gift and he too was restless. So restless in fact that he grew impatient waiting for the Children of Iluvatar to awaken and created the dwarves.
A few thoughts occurred to me during the video:
1. The Undying land was not so. Elves (specifically the Noldor) brought conflict and death with them both by postpartum weariness and also by bloodshed. Though these elves could reincarnate, those who died this way seldom choose or are allowed to do so.
2. Numenor was too close to Aman. I think this is why Eru sank it beneath the waves and turned Arda into a sphere. The Ainur and the Eldar turned Numenor into Tol Eressea East. It's flora and perhaps fauna came from the West. They were taught the Arts and Crafts of the West by Eldar and Maiar. The Numenoreans were given every gift they were authorized to give, but in the end men desired the one gift the Valar could not give. All of the effects of living in Aman that you describe happened, at perhaps less intensity, in Numenor. In the end it robbed them of their nobility and peace and turned them into tyrants.
3. It is not for the Children to say who have been given the better Gift. Each Gift looks better to the other at some point. Weary elves long to be free of the confines of Arda. Men crave the immortal agelessness of elves. However, men cannot ken what it means to be tied to fate, to have your near endless days laid out for you with no ability to alter their course. Elves on the other hand do not know the fear of death and do not have to rely on faith for what happens after their bodies die. For either kindred, rejection of their gift and envy of the other leads only to conflict, misery, and sorrow.
I have an idea: let’s invade the Undying Lands and wrest immortality from the Valar’s cold dead hands!!!
Oh, hey Ar-Pharazôn! How are you doing, man? Still buried alive?
Truth be told, I don't really like the Valar anymore than I like Melkor. But that last invasion plan clearly didn't work. Maybe you should hire Kratos and Asura. XD
Lead on!
That line of thought brought Numenor crashing down into the oceans.
Hell yeah! What's the worst that could happen anyway?
@@user-oq4yk1xd7d But to be fair, this was the Valar fault. They put Numenor in sight of Aman and told them they could not go there. Its like holding a slice of the most delicious looking cake you have ever seen and say you cannot get a taste of it. Seeing a place where there is no disease, sickness, old age or hurt, eventually brews anger and disdain, and then rebellion.
The Valar were unbearably naive and incompetent, and whats worse, is that they were actually shocked when Men rebelled.
Elrond feared the date of men. He was not happy to give his daughter to Aragorn, maybe nor men nor elves understood the “gift”
He also chose to be an elf while his brother took the gift of men lending truth to your story
I would agree that _neither_ Men nor Elves understood 'the gift,' however, it seems that Elves and Men were both aware- at some point- that it was indeed a gift and that later generations of Men came to forget this, knowing only that they died while the Elves didn't. By the third age, it seemed that only the Dunedain were aware that the differences in lifespans were due to the mandate of Eru Iluvatar (presumably due to the teachings of Elrond), while those in Gondor had long since forgotten such things.
Still, Men, Elves, the Maiar and even the Valar (possibly excepting Mandos) did not know what happened to the spirits of Men when they left the halls of Mandos, knowing only that they were housed in halls set apart for them- for a while- and then they departed. Without knowing what happened to the Fea, the spirits of Men, I don't think any of them, not even the Valar could claim to understand the nature of the 'Gift' of Iluvatar.
@@Raz.C "Still, Men, Elves, the Maiar and even the Valar (possibly excepting Mandos)"
I don't know about Namo however Manwe did know as he regularly communed with Iluvator.
@@nicholasmaude6906
Yes, he did. However, each Vala is- you could say- attuned to a different aspect of the mind of Eru. Namo and Irmo being the Feanturi, were much more closely attuned with the Fea of living beings than Manwe would have been. Namo would have been the one who would have known, if any of them did.
It wasn't that, it was that he would almost certainly never see her again. Living as an elf, she could have travelled to Aman, but even if she had died her spirit would have gone to Mandos and eventually been released. Choosing mortality meant that that would not happen; her spirit would travel beyond the circles of the world after her death so they would never meet again while the world lasted, or maybe even beyond that, as the future of the elves beyond Dagor Dagorath is unknown.
An interesting question: What were the spirits of Elrond and Elros like? They were both given the coice to become mortal or to stay immortal. But did the coice mean that there was something changed in their personality as well, so they'd fit more into their chosen race? Or was their choice predestined by what their spirit was like (more elven-like vs. more human-like)? Although Elros died when he was 500 years lod, being the longest-living man of all time, was he like all other humans, changing and forming the world around him like mankind always does? Or was he more like the elves, preserving things like they were?
And did Elrond pursue changing the world around him more than other elves did?
Or did it mean some profound change in their spirits / souls, when those brothers chose their path, much deeper than just choosing death or immortality?
Elros was the first king of Númenor so I'd say that puts him on the side of changing and forming the world.
I’d consider Elros mortal in body but elvish in spirit. Elrond was full Elven because of his choice.
@@danielriley7380 Actually Elrond was said to be a Half-Elf in the books but this is never stated at all in the movies by Peter Jackson. Half Man...Half Elf...but because he inherited most of his Elvish ancestry in not just his physical appearance but also Elvish magics as well along with their immortality, hes often mistaken easily as a pure blooded Elf along with his entire family. And it doesnt help that hes high up on the Elvish Hierarchy too.
A change must have come over them
Elros chose to spend his days alongside men and was counted among them. Elrond chose to keep the company of elves and to return with them to the Undying Lands. Luthien chose to spend her life with her love Beren as a mortal woman and now abides with him beyond the circles of the world. Tuor, due to his association with Ulmo, his marriage to an Elven Princess, and they respect and honor given to him in Gondolin allowed him to be the only mortal counted among the Elves. The answer to this seem to rely more on the company you keep than a spiritual change. Or, perhaps the community they associated with changes the nature of their spirit.
The gift of Men, Horses, Rabbits, Eagles, Pidgeons, Bugs.. what a gift thank you ERU!!
I just discovered this channel it is awesome, also narrator is great
Welcome to the Fellowship!! 😁
Thank you! I am the new narrator. :)
@@liamtaylor6838 great job. Thanks
Welcome! Check out nerd of the rings. That's my other favorite channel!
Geekzone is fantastic
I can understand why Eru wanted humans to not follow the music, but why mortality that can only last last a little over 100 years? It didn’t have to be Númanorian 500, it could been a default of 200 or 250?
True though Tolkien said that the longer Numenorean lifespans made them more reluctant to accept death, since they cared more about their physical life
Arbitrary numbers longer or shorter don't matter. As Tolkien said in an interview, the only reason to have more time for him would be to complete a work too large for a few decades. How many people do you know have a life mission and work that big? How many do you know have flames dwindling after 25 and only grab for more out of fear of loss? I've been blessed with an adventurous heart and have seen and done wonderful things and at 40 I'm completely exhausted, not resentful, just tired. Another 20 years just to sit in some suburban hell consuming material and hoarding life is no life at all. It isn't the length of time, it is what you can do with it.
@@artemismoonbow2475 I enjoy your statement but disagree on point. Over the past 41 years I've lived an extremely interesting life, others who know me and hear stories from earlier chapters comment about mine having been an eventful one. I can say now it's been a full one and I'm now living in what I consider prosperity in comparison to my previous norms and I could enjoy this as long as possible. If it ended today I would be happy with the life I've led but I would prefer to continue enjoying what I've made for myself.
@@mikekochendorfer7965 I don't think we are in disagreement. I also think Point of Orders are usually subjective clarifications and that's actually a good thing. Our personal views of the journey differ slightly, but really, they don't. I'm happy for your reply and I hope you find years of joy in family and fun. Cheers.
@@GeekZoneMT hence 250, at most, would be a good median age between Númanorian and standard lifespan.
Eru: My Eldest Children will be immortal, fairest, and wisest
Eru: My Adoptive Children will be gifted in craftsmanship
Eru: My Second Children…uh your time is limited on Earth, but hey you’re my favorite child!
Men: gee, thanks dad…
Eru: don't worry, after the end of the world, you will sing with me to create a new world and live there again. While the elves and dwarves die, they fade and they dont feel pain and suffering anymore just death and peace to them while you will stay here :D.
Men: I don't think that's any better.
I have never understood why death is supposed to be gift at all.
Maybe you could explain that in a futurre video? Maybe touch on the discussion between Finrod and Andreth for context?
Death is the ability to move on to a higher level. If death is only physical, then spiritually it would allow you to transcend beyond your body. Become unlimited and free. If you were immortal, staying in the same body forever would be a curse. You would never be free.
Ok.., imagine in a real-world setting that you suffer from schizophrenia but you can't die. Isn't death a perfect closure to your suffering? Yes it really is as it would extinguish your suffering and mental turmoil. Death is natural, it is the ceasation of suffering.
Elves on Aman are not men. They are elves. Elves are hardwired differently.
And! In some cases men are confined to the world, such as the barrow wights and the army of the dead. Eru really did shit on men lmao
Yeah those are such an interesting case!
I was gonna say, Eru and the Valar just come off as dicks in Tolkeins writing disguised as some omnipotent grand plan. They let morgoth nearly destroy the entire world out of spite for the elves who left them for middle earth.
Barrow wights are minor wraiths, possibly killed by Morgul blades like that which wounded Frodo.
Well Isildur cursed the Dunharrow army to never rest in peace for their cowardice. Being one of The Faithful/Dunedain, he must have known some magics in which to prevent the soul from leaving.
Oath-breakers aren't taken lightly in the Tolkienverse.
Were men taught the prophecy that after Dagor Dagorath their spirits would join in the singing of a new reality?
I don’t think they knew. Seems most of lore from the beginning of the world passed into lore and myth through the ages. Even the valar became myth in the eyes of men as the ages went by.
The Edain probably learned of it from the Noldor, but the bulk of men may not have, having been manipulated to some extent by Melkor or Suaron. Even the Ainur didn't know where the fea of men went when they died.
All we know for certain, is that Men were the most favorite children of Eru! The special of the two (or 3rd if you consider the adoption of the Dwarves, which technically is indirectly his children through one of the Valar)! That is why nobody KNOWS what happens to Men when they die or where they go or what their purpose is! But that is why Men have the free will to do as they please (well us humans as this is Tolkien’s version of explanation of why we are always seeking our own fates & why we sacrifice & long for that what is truly our own desires). We aren’t bound to the Earth & to follow the rules of that unlike the Elves 🧝♀️ & Valar. That is why Men crave adventure, knowledge, passion, desire, & so forth. But as for the true extent of why Men were given mortality...no one knows nor comprehends nor understands as to why...
In all honesty, I believe this is why when Men live you either have faith or dont. You have the blessings of choice & even if this life is in despair & Great Opression, at least you’re able to escape & leave this world into another. Why the Men will meet Eru & be given or granted a next life & so on. If anyone notices, Men become adaptive & resilient & skillful within such a short time span. It’s not difficult to fathom that Men have the talent & capability to far exceed even those born with blessed powers.
That’s what I honestly believe the spirit of Man is special & will continue living in a way bestowed upon the One Creator.
They're the ones who made it up. The elves have no idea what their fate is because Eru refuses to tell them. Therefore the Dagor Dagorath is a bit of made-up mannish Fourth Age eschatology, which explains its nonsensical parts like Turin and Feanor acting way out of character.
This was a rather interesting concept to think about. I always thought that death itself was more of a gift, a gift of mortality. Elves and men have their own gifts. Elves have the gift of Immortality, because if they die, their spirits would be bound to the world of Arda, never an eternal afterlife which is a gift given to the race of men. In other words, the men go into an afterlife without being bound to the world, and the elves' spirits forever remain bound to the world of Arda, becoming 'one' with it. This is why elves have immortality, so that their spirits throughout all of time can strengthen and endure. The men on the other hand, aren't bound to the world of Arda, but their souls are able to pass beyond the world of Arda, perhaps being able to rejoin Eru Illuvatar and become Maiar themselves. So in my opinion, the spirits of the elves would never leave the world of Arda, but remain until the end of time.
The only problem I have is this. The Valar seemed to "favor" the elves more than men in the sense that the elves have a piece of land where they could live without constant changes that the men of middle-earth desire from time to time. But unlike the men, the elves also had great protection from the Valar, therefore the men were most vulnerable to corruption. Therefore, it's unwise to blame men for being envious of the elves' immortality when Morgoth was the one who corrupted their hearts to see mortality as a curse than a blessing. Yet, who didn't bother to stop Morgoth from corrupting the race of men? The Valar. Not even Sauron was stopped by them. All they did was tell the race of Elves to go ahead and abandon Middle-Earth, not fix the mess they created in the first place.
So I'm very much in sympathy for Men and in favor of the fates of men. I sympathize with the race of men because they weren't protected by the Valar, and were left with the chances of being corrupted by Morgoth and Sauron to turn against the elves and the free peoples of Middle-Earth. Also, I find mortality more as a gift, because being bound to the world of Arda in spirit rather than able to go beyond that and be at true peace in the afterlife sounds more like a curse to me than a blessing the elves got.
I'm a bit torn on which side eru's creation I'd choose. As a man, it would feel the same as now; conversely, as an eldar, it would be a stretched out variation of men
When you are immortal, you lose any sense of urgency. Time is not a variable of your actions or decision for the most part.
the Eldar are built differently to Men, they were bound to the world and would not feel old.
I know the assumptions about immortality having its drawbacks (the freedom to leave life and its burdens behind, etc...), but would've been nice to see some exploration of why mortality was a gift in this vid. If men had an immortal soul, surely the problems would be gone?
Liams voice is a blessing from Eru himself tbf
Thank you for what you have done, Numenor's loss is due to their heinous actions, human beings are constantly changing because of their nature.
I am one of your Arab followers
I have something I like to say
The word "aman" is pronounced in Arabic (أمان) "aman".
In Arabic it means tranquility (security) serenity
A gift you cannot reject is no gift at all.its called a burden
I would imagine that many men could learn to appreciate and even thrive in the undying lands, living there as guests. Especially if they came later in life, after many hardships, the way Bilbo and Frodo did. I agree though that a settlement or larger society of men would founder, and those born there would certainly resent the seemingly unnatural passage of time.
What's most interesting to me is that at first the Edain were accepting of death, for when Bëor died (Page 149 of the Silmarillion) it was said that "But Bëor had willingly abandoned life and died in peace". This probably means that at first the Edain were, due to not being tainted by Morgoth's influence, able to embrace their gift?
Beor the Old knew his time was come and accepted his death, something the Elves were shocked by, as no one had killed him. The Edain, like all Men had a seed of Morgoth in them , but Beor lived his life which was mostly hardship in getting the House of Beor to Beleriand, remaining humble and calm. There were other Men not so calm, like the group of Men who decided to leave Beleriand altogether and go back east, or Turin Turambar, who was heroic but easily manipulated by Glaurung and Morgoth, killing himself in shame and grief. The Numenoreans however, died in a more special way, by greeting death as it came, surrendering their life in peace without feeling old or burdened, basically committing the chillest suicide ever. Beor simply died as an old man would, but the Numenoreans left the world neither old or withered.
I have 1 question, when are we gonna have the original narrator? i kinda miss him ngl :))
I really hope to organise a few livestreams soon :)
@@GeekZoneMT I do miss when you used to narrate 😄
Aw cmon the new guy is good too. ;)
At first, i thought his balls just dropped. I didnt know its 2 people
The "Gift of Men" is the element of Tolkein's writing that I struggle with. The idea was to have two separate races - elves and men - that were equal but different. And yet this seems to me to be manifestly untrue.
Elves can live forever, unburdened by death. They used their immortality to build great realms, craft great artifacts like the Simarils, and on and on the benefits run. Man? Oh, they die and go somewhere beyond Arda. Well, what is so good about this place 'beyond Arda'? Not a word on that. So these two races are not equal but different; one is simply better. Elves are immortal, unphased by disease or old age. And men are worse; they are mortal, on the whole generally weaker and less capable, vulnerable to disease, prisoners of circumstances of their birth, and of course uniquely susceptible to corruption by Morgoth and then later Sauron, and why?
Because this "Gift" sucks.
Yes, this 'gift' rethoric always seem as nothing more than echo of how Tolkien was coping with his own mortality. Also elves are portrayed as obviously superior 'master race', any way for others to cope with them is by numerical superiority (which is taken to the extreme by orcs).
Not to mention, Men are largely unable to use magic at all while elves are particularly gifted with magic. Even Aragorn's healing powers are questionable; it's kind of more like knowing first aid than being a healer.
@@novacorponline Great point. Aragon is in just about every way the 'ideal man' of the setting, and while his contributions were not small, they are still overshadowed by other elves. If even the very best human ever isn't enough to change the paradigm, who possibly could?
The key to understanding it is Tolkien's deep Christian faith. This "place beyond Arda" is essentially the Christian concept of heaven, i.e. being close(r) to or with God (Eru). The Elves, for all their beauty and immortality, cannot leave Arda and will *end* with Arda. Men's souls will, on the other hand, be truly immortal and eternally with God.
I can understand why he called it a gift even though I am an atheist. But I also appreciate this may be difficult for people to accept if they don't share Tolkien's vantage point on religious faith.
That's exactly what Morgoth wants you to think.
Man only talion can appreciate eru’s gift well because of his journey
Yea, being kept alive by a ring that tortures you really puts your life (or undead life) into perspective.
@@bubbles784 true the sweet release is better because you never had a break nor the endless torture
What about Tuor? He went to the Undying Lands with his wife, Idril. He was a mortal, though Edain. Did Tolkien explain this in the same essay? I haven't read "Morgoth's Ring" in years, looks like I need to go back and read it.
Yes both Tuor and Earendil his son were given the gift of immortality to follow their Elf spouse who were already immortal.
This idea is explored deeply in the Highlander series...that's why The Prize was mortality. The ability to have children, grow old, and finally have a peaceful death.
Tell that to most Atheist seeing Mortality as a disease to be killed. Not a prize. Even if the author was less religiously inclined, they'd call it a death apologist work.
I think it's good to note that the men of Numenor originally embraced death and saw it as a blessing, often choosing to die willingly rather than continue living a longer life when they could.
And the Oathbreakers where what they really wanted was a final death, to be free of their oath so they could pass from the mortal world. Their spirits had a sort of immortality, but what they wanted was death.
This explanation feels like a lot of mental gymnastics to justify why men were the only ones to die and leave. It's kinda effed up to just expect Men to accept it with no explanation while other things got to live forever
You wouldn’t actually want to live forever. That would be hell. Imagine not being able to die. That’s more horrifying to me than death itself which is often feared.
You ,good sir, have one of the most relaxing voices on youtube
I always wondered why Arwen had to forsake immortality to be with Aragorn even though it was obvious she was still going to outlive him? Couldn't they just got married for a few decades with Arwen leaving when he dies? Elrond could've even waited for her. I am assuming this was a requirement from the gods but what's the story behind it?
Basically, half human/half elves were given a choice between living as an elf or a human.
Arwen being such as a descendant of Elron Halfelven was given this choice. To be with Aragon, she had to choose a mortal life.
Elron choose to life as an elf. His brother choose to live as a man and become a king of men.
So she can with Aragorn after her death as Elf she would live an eternity without him
@@heathengypsy well. Finwe remarried after Miriel committed ethereal suicide :)
@@SikkiNixx1989 that was just a different case and exception... Otherwise elves are very loyal and would die with a broken heart.
Exactly.
Why couldn't she have just gone back after Aragorn died.
Sorry i just want to point out that the legendary Tuor of house Hador in the first age? Lord Elronds grandfather on his father, Erändils side is the ONLY man to be granted access to Aman and more so..Tuor, not a half-elven but a mortal man of house Hador was granted to be counted among the Eldar since they saw him as practiaclly family and he married the elf princess of Gondolin, Idril. Tuor was well liked by both the Valar ulmo and rose in favour with the elfs of Gondolin. So there is acutally ONE exampel of a man in Tolkiens works that was granted the fate of the Eldar as a mortal man and to live with them in Aman. That is intresting.
the way it is written is apocryphal, and that Tuor was accepted as one of the Firstborn is what the 'author' suggests, as no one saw him ever again. Unlike Earendil, who is explicitly converted into an Elf, Tuor just vanishes from the text. This way we don't know and have to believe the narrator. Tuor is absent when his son arrives in Valinor with the Silmaril and doesn't even return with him to fight the War of Wrath. It could be that he just died a 'guest' death like the Ringbearers would later on.
True immortality really would be a curse, because as much as I'd like to say I'd want to live forever right now, I might feel quite differently a thousand years from now..
Its a dark thought, but if you truly lived on forever there might be a time where you feel like you've truly experienced everything life has to offer, that there is no sensation or extreme stimulus in existence that you haven't already experienced either in more number than you can remember or in such a truly profound way once upon a time that feeling something like that again is simply impossible, like the love of a soul mate who is now gone or is an entirely different person from the one they were 1,000 years ago..
Perhaps as a "young" person of just a few hundred years of age you were quite optimistic about the world, perhaps you were excited to see it change and evolve steadily into the better world you had hoped for as a child, but instead you lived to see a slow, painful, and irreversible path of self destruction, or maybe a massive disaster or series of global events that completed upheaved the world's bright future for thousands of years more, if not indefinitely..
If you ask me, if I wanted a immortality of any kind, I'd ask for the ones they give you in The Sims. Just live on forever, eternally youthful, until you can go press an internal button somewhere that turns on aging. If you're tired of life, let yourself fade a little bit and finally experience what its like to have a body that grows old... and if the world magically changes, just go turn off aging again until you get bored in a few hundred years.
That'd be ideal.
You know highlander dealt with his very thing very well.
This poses some good questions.
If in our universe we had immortality how would the effect us humans?
Would what's currently important to us change?
How would we think about the planet?
Would we be more willing to build space ships and go look for other species?
Could we do it without abusing the universe and each other?
Pity the man that accepted fine jewelry from Sauron; a living hell.
I love to think that this was one of Miyazaki's inspirations for the Undead in Dark Souls, how becoming undying and losing their will to endure would leave them to become empty vessels as Hollows. Then again that sort of got retconned in DS3.
Fascinating analysis and impeccable narration. Thank you for this content rediscovered Tolkien again thanks to you. This reminds me a lot of non canonical narration of the book of Enoch when Angels became jealous of mortal men. Phenomenal Tolkien changes it up in his world building. I prefer the gift of the elves, however, all beings have a function, a purpose, from the insect to mankind. Mortality for both hunter and hunted, so acceptance or understanding of the function and purpose of the specific race, elven, man, dwarvish and so on, I think is the key in Tolkien’s writing to mitigating or quenching said desires of power, immortality etc…
For example, much like Galadriel passed the test of the ring of power, as you’ll recall she desired power, in the end she accepted her part or purpose in middle earth and she diminished in power, but her banishment from the undying lands was lifted, boom she returned to the undying lands.
Much like the hobbits too, both Bilbo and Frodo were resistant and rebuked the evil of the ring, so another test that they managed to pass…and boom off to the undying lands, anyways those are my thoughts, thank you and stay safe.
This video answered all my questions
When I first read The Lord of the Rings back in the early '70s (on my own accord, it was not an assignment of the public school curriculum, at least not in the Kansas City North School District at the time), I found many things quite fascinating and admirable about the Elvish people, but the gift of immortality was not particularly one of them. In fact, it barely registered in my teenage psyche compared to their other attributes. Upon later musings, immortality in a finite world would eventually render all things uninteresting. Even Abby Road, e.g., would likely become boring after 42000 listenings or so.
I definitely prefer the gift of mortality. living in this world forever would be too boring. In any case, I would have liked to be a full-blooded Numenorean and live for 200 or 250 years. excellent video. Thank you very much for developing the theme.
Yeah... but we're not talking about THIS world, are we? We're talking about Tolkien's world. A world full of wonders, mysteries and the fantastic. You're telling me in THAT world, you'd want to live a shortened life? Idk man... it feels like men got a raw deal. But I agree with having a Numenorean lifespan.
You did. You mad lad. Someone finally, finally includes that juicy lore tidbit that 'the body and spirit of man would become in conflict'.
Things would be so, so much easier if Eru allowed Men some knowledge re. their fate after death and they didn't have to take it entirely on faith that they didn't cease to exist or, even worse, go into the Void to be with Morgoth. Presumbably, though, there's a reason why this is a secret.
Men are not to understand the meaning of life after death, because the majority of humans do not muse about these things. It is Men who have fought over petty things like bloodlines, property and differences in language. Anyone with that knowledge would likely be disbelieved or even persecuted. Even among Elves there is no knowledge of that,since they have no afterlife as such. That's the idea of faith, to encourage the best of the here and now. If Men knew they would be leaving the world, they would pretty much do nothing in this one.
@@SantomPh kinda begs the question of why being in this one in the first place?why not being already there?
Literally has changed my sleep game. I wake up refreshed and ready for the day.
Elves were %10000 favored by eru. Men can't live with the ainur and live in peace away from their enemies and across the sea and live forever...but are expected to fight in dagor dagorath and deliver the killing blow to morgoth.
I'd be part of the crew trying to take over Aman
Hmm I dunno. Since we don't know what awaited Men after their death, perhaps a more blissful fate awaited them then that of the Elves
I used to think that. These days I can start to see why the elves are jealous of men's fate. Maybe we'd feel differently after looking at the same landscape for 10,000 years? At some point it would start to be intolerable.
@@GeekZoneMT Take some shrooms and get a taste of the bliss of ego annihilation, comfort from anxiety, and appreciation for the time left here without fear.
Immortality would be a horrible experience. Over thousands of years you will experience many bad events which will accumulate and make you depressed or bitter.
I tend to agree with that. Elves were absolutely favored by Eru. Think about it; they were the fairest, wisest, and [some of] most knowledgeable of all creatures in Middle Earth. They were more graceful, more skillful in arts and in combat. They built places of extreme beauty and "magic." Not to mention they were immortal (although they could be killed in battle or of a broken heart), and they were promised to live with gods and angels in the end. Men, while having a hardier constitution, have MUCH shorter lifespans, are more prone/susceptible to corruption and evil, are less skilled and knowledgeable (the exception to that rule were the Numenoreans), and in the end, their fate remained relatively unknown. But they were forbidden to enter the realm of the gods, despite having been largely on very good terms with the Elves, having fought next to them in crucial battles, and men being ultimately responsible for defeating the ancient evil in the land (Sauron).
You know, this puts a different perspective on the curse of the Oathbreakers. Their spirits must have ached to leave Middle Earth. Makes you wonder if Isildur knew what weight his curse held.
Probably saved it with the last connotation that the immortality given to the elves was bound to their liking of the unchanged aspect of the world, forever stagnant, and if it is so, then THAT immortality is indeed a sad one, as you don't see further than the limits imposed on the existing world.
On the other hand the mortality of Men allows this "fortune seeker" and the need for change and innovation, so I'd prefer this route, albeit longer, though you would always say "longer" I suppose.
Abiding by tolkien's rules if I could be an immortal elf and SEE the changes made by Men and/or other races I would happily be immortal, however I wouldn't much enjoy immortality in the Undying lands. On the other hand being a mortal sounds like an adventure, but this is all assuming you know the afterlife that awaits you, otherwise its hard to say "yeh you enjoy life.......for a while then you're gone lol", in that scenario frick mortality and adventure lmao if you're gone and "you" cease to utterly exist, might as well be immortal in w/e setting.
On the broader spectrum and IRL a bit, immortality is desirable at an individual level and we all say it would be awesome, but even if you discard the fact it would mean endless wars due to overpopulation, it would mean stagnation of evolution really, but we can't fathom 100 years into the future much less 50k years.
If man was not permitted because fear of envy then dont think they had a gilf.
Could the gift of man after death be coming into the personal presence of Eru Illuvatar? Personally i think i would choose the gift of man. Mostly to explore and know that which could be beyond Arda. For there wont be much New to know and explore if one were to stay in Arda.
Yeah that's my favourite theory tbh :)
@@GeekZoneMT I wonder though, if that is the case, why is that hidden from Men? Why would Eru keep that truth from that plane of existence?
@@spacewiz163 It was told to Men by the voice of Eru in the early days, but because of the lies of Morgoth, Men stopped believing it, save the few who became the three Houses of Edain.
@@spacewiz163 Maybe because he planned to let only some men in his presence, like the faithful, and men like heirs of Elendil (you know I don't think he would let men like ar-pharazon or any evil men in his presence) . And so if he tells everyone about the true gift given to men all men even the most faithful would become arrogant and thus unworthy or something like that. It's like a test, he does not tell and watch who will behave like Aragorn or Grimma and then at the end give the salary to all according to their choice.
@@seldelaterre2786 yeah that does make sense. Very akin to spiritual purification.🙂
The "Gift of Men" is indeed a huge contridiction. Because if morality was a "gift" then why were the loyal Numenoreans "blessed" with 3x the normal lifespan of normal "lesser" men?
AND!!!!! If elves wanted to be wed to a man/woman they could choose to have a mortal life. AND Elronds brother elros got to not only rule as the first king of numenor as an elf, he too got to choose the gift of men
Elves couldn't choose mortality. Only half-elves, like Elros, Elrond and Arwen had any choice, because they had both men and elves in ancestry.
Have you even been paying attention to the lore, dude?
@@KateeAngel aragorn was a descendant of elros and didn't get to choose immortality. Technically arwen and aragorn are distant cousins. Aragorn was a descendant of the kings of numenor and elros being the first king of numenor makes him technically have some elvish blood in him
I mean maybe a drop or two of elvish blood but he didn't get to choose to live immortally, and I think he would if it meant he had the choice and could live with arwen in Aman.. he was always doubtful and grim about his destiny and at one point was contemplating on letting her go to the gray Havens
@@KateeAngel Luthien was the daughter of a high elf and a Maia and yet she did get to choose mortality. It was also the same with Arwen. They didn't have that choice at first, but because they fell in love with mortals, they were later able to become mortal themselves.
What an insightful reason. Well said and highly believable.
I still prefer immortality.
I LOVE your channel you guys have taught me about so much more of the fantastic and in my opinion very spiritual world of middle earth and EVERY little detail that’s goes with it!!!
I still don't understand what this "gift" is lol
The quality of this channel is incredible!
I would still love the undying lands, I finally would be able to have a pet bird, which I wouldn't have to bury one day 🙄
Also listening to stories of elves and Valar would be great. I wouldn't envy them, I fear endless existence, and certainly don't want it at all.
That's only because our minds can't fathom true bliss and heaven. If the lands of Valar we're like so, you would most likely change your answer
Wanted to say, great narration and writing for this. You are a great story teller.
None of that changes the fact that Ilúvatar showed favouritism towards the Elves in their creation. Man was made to be a lesser creature, therefore man was right to reject him.
This type of thinking is how the devil became the devil in the more interesting stories. Which of course is a large inspiration for Tolkiens creations.
@@jakecollin5499
It is true though. God or whoever he was if he's even real to begin with was a selfish prick who plays favorites. No wonder more and more people are starting to embrace atheism.
In the afterlife they were not bound to the earth as immortal creatures r. So in death is where the gift lied for those who were judged favorably. Think of Aragorns words to Arwen on his death bed. We are not bound foreverto the circles of the world and beyond them is more than memory. Tbh men were more corruptible than all creatures so I'm not sure if immortality for them would be good for the earth.
Always bringing up high quality information about our favorite fantasy universe!
The gift of man was always meant to become one with Illuvitar
Epic Fate
So the gift is mega death? Nice.
Excellent analysis, not seen this ever really covered before.
Death is a gift, Is the stupidest thing to tell another being. You don't see elves being envious of mortals. You see them run back to the west when their rings of power fade.
Yup fuck the creator
Who wants to be a decrepit immortal? If you're going to suffer might as well suffer with full health 😮💨
I could live happily in undying lands.
I will live, I will change, I will die.
I will be content with my body resting in eternity.
I've wondered if Men were originally part of the plan at all? In a perfect world, the elves would be happy to live forever in peace. Was it Melkors meddling in the music that caused Eru to shift gears and create Men to live for a time in an imperfect world?
Nope, because everything Melkor did, ultimately played in to Iluvatar's original design.
"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."
Right!? I think Eru planned to make both, but didn't know how to resolve that soul/ body problem and Melkors' song provided the answers, so Eru adjusted for it in the second song "theme" . Imo... .edit "theme"
That's exactly my thought as well, if everything went according to the original plan Arda wouldn't be affected in it's nature By melkor which would make everywhere a good place for elves to live. So what happens to me then ? Also if we ignore that and say that at least one part of the plan goes right which is all the elves answering the summons to valinor and leaving middle earth, what would happen to men then ? Will the valar go to war against morgoth for the sake of men or will they leave them to deal with it like they did in the second and third age. It's kind of going too deep into this but that's one fun part about it
@@meduseldtales3383 yes, but even though Melkor's plan of controlling the music is folly, he still managed to change things beyond what was originally planned in the music. Eru composed new themes to counter him.
Excellent video. Thanks for sharing and helping illuminate this essay from Tolkien!
I have two thoughts: one on my opinion on immortality and one in my opinion on how it was handled by Tolkien/Eru Illuvitar.
First I think living a long life is good and living forever is a curse. Easy.
Second I think Eru Illuvitar basically tortured humans by giving elves immortality and realms of peace and the creating humans that specifically could not reap any benefits that the elves could. Eru Illuvitar was afraid they would want the better lives and lands that were straight up gifted to Elves when that was how it was designed.
To add to that, I seems to me that Eru used human souls to carry off some of Morgoth's taint. Clearly men were an after thought and not meant to be part of the world.
I'm sorry I just can't do it, I can't watch without you doing the narrations, your voice just added to the lore so much, I'll stay subbed but only check in to hope your back doing the voice over again. Really hope you get free enough to do it again soon.
Humans fear death but at the same time, we eventually grow tired of the uncaring world around us and death becomes, as Harry Potter says, a friend to us. Immortality is a soul-draining concept because you'd watch everything else die around you. Our minds can only handle so much of that.
I write my own high fantasy world (known as All World) and while I have many long-lived species, there are only five specific characters that have true immortality (as far as time's passage goes). The five in question are the World Masters and their enduring lives are part of the purpose given to them by All World's creator-deity, the World Weaver. Their job is to guide an otherwise fallen world from the beginning of time to the very end of it. I made them all beasts since they can be trusted with that level of power and have greater fortitude over the soul-draining effects of Time's passage. Their immortality is tied to their planet. As long as it endures, they will as well.
I make it no secret that the Masters are completely exhausted and worn out after only 6,000 years. The only things keeping them going right now are their various relationships and knowing that none of it will last forever. They may not know the exact "when" but they have a clear view of what the End will look like for them. They will survive the seven-year-long Tribulation War, the week-long Battle of Armageddon, linger for another forty days while they travel to where they were given Masterdom, and then die (triggering the Apocalypse). They appreciate what they will never have until the appointed time and agree that their immortality is a blessing and a curse.
Excellent video! One of the best that I've seen in a very long time!
There is No explanation of Why Death was a gift?
It sounds like it was unfair to Man.
In the lore of LoTR, Eru Illuvatar has man only living for a time on Arda then they die. If they are faithful to him, their spirits join him in singing the new music along with the Valar, and they will be with him forever and everlasting.
I disagree with saying the Undying lands were not influenced by Morgoth. He attacked and killed the Two Trees with Ungoliant and he spread evil ideas to Feanor and his sons. I believe some Elves killed other elves to get ships to chase Morgoth. I think it was more that the two kindreds were different and followed different paths.
Fear of the unknown is wrapped in the "gift" and this is a double edged sword.
Be grateful i gave you this lump of coal.
you have the best channel on Lotr lore and you have an amazing voice!
I would definitely want to be an elf
I'd prefer that of Men tbh, especially they sort of have a guaranteed afterlife in the Lotr mythos
@@GeekZoneMT Better a sparrow in the hand than a pigeon on the roof. so 100% Elf
@@youtubeisdead8153your saying sparrow is elf and pigeon is men.
Dear GZ, great video on men and immortality. One thought as an add for future video on this topic. The blessing of mortality, from a spiritual benefit perspective, goes back to why Eru made them mortal to begin with. The Sil./Tolkien states men were made this way to bring energy and vitality to middle-earth due to their nature to build and expand and explore the corners of the created world. The comparative brevity of their life, is consistent with the nature of their spirits to achieve this purpose. Elves seemed to have too much contentment (minus Morgoth's marring of almost everything) at pace almost too deliberate, serene and slow-paced even for Eru. Not a design flaw, but the counter-balance of what men brought to the energies of the world are apparently a design fulfillment- instead of design correction. All the best to you. ~The LoreMaster
So basically, Tolkien’s men aren’t at all the same as us men. Also, Tolkien realized that the immortality of some creatures left a giant loophole in his story, and decided to patch it up with strange bullshit and fancy words.
if you can't accept a fictional narrative, read something else.
The world of the Middle Earth is literally a mythology. So they represent us in a way.
Find me a book series perfect without one plot hole. There literally isn't any on this planet.
I doubt you could even write a children's story, since you're too pessimistic and vain.
So... None of this explains how causing humans to age, and die is a gift. It just says we were also cursed with spirits that spoiled like milk and had to be thown out of the world itself to avoid stinking up the place. So, humans were cursed twice.
Interesting, but I can't help to regard Eru almost as much as a tyrant as Melkor. He create inescapable fate to people and races, none of them having a say in it or being asked if they liked their gifts. At least Elves could chose mortality, either by killing themselves or going to a hopeless war or as Arwen marrying a human. Humans had no choice whatsoever to ever change their status. I have a hard time to imagine any human seeing age and death as a gift.
So Eru, being immortal, gave a "gift", mortality, which he himself had not the SLIGHTEST sense what that actually meant to endure.
Understand something about that choice though. It by no means is a good choice. If anything, not having the choice is more merciful. The premise is that death is not a gift but a curse.
With that premise in mind look at arwen. She made a choice to forsake living forever, but in doing that, had to suffer two deaths. The first by giving up an immortal life to suffer eventual death. And second, being that elves having immortality then seek to preserve what they have forever. When the mortality strikes the one she died once for, being grieved at losing what she must have desired to have forever then caused her to go and die out of her own grief essentially. So she died a second time. Because times changing is essentially against the very spirit of a being thats meant to live forever and preserve what they built forever, causing a death of the spirit and body.
So the reason not having the choice is more merciful is to imagine yourself in either beings shoes. Men know for a fact what their fate is, so they can truly live that life to the fullest, and know what path to take, and that instead of just preserving what is there, they have the push out the door to use the infinite potential they have to create something more grand and better.
Whereas by having the choice elves have, you either get to pick the pain of death by either giving up immortality, or death of their souls by seeing everything you sacrificed immortality for change or disappear, but most likely they would get both. Or they can choose to give up an existence they want most with those whom they want to share with it most, and go on to the undying lands living out what their spirits goal is.
Imagine having that choice all the time, and the suffering it would cause you to have to make, and whether you are making the right decision or not. By taking the choice off the board, you essentially give permission to that being to fully live out who they are with what they got as they desire rather than vasilate between the existence of what they have vs what they may think they want, while squandering what's right in front t of them as the numenorians did, to their downfall of arrogance and jealousy. Two things that would be taken off the table by essentially being made to stay in your lane so to speak.
He himself said "no music can be made that hath not its uttermost source in me." All the suffering that people like to blame on Melkor was really Eru's idea the whole time. All of the Ainur represented some part of Eru's mind, and Melkor represented the largest share of it. It's also shown that there's nothing Eru loves more than weeping.
The thing is, since eleves spirits were bound to Arda even if their physical bodies were killed their spirts would still be bound to Arda and would go to The Halls of Mandos and be rembodied after death. In a case like Arwens she was half elf and could chose a mortal life, or an immortal life and she chose a mortal life. So elves didnt have a choice unless they were half elves.
What living life to the fullest what having infinite potential because men had none of that
This is one of my favourit videos from this channel so far, although Karl was amazing as narrator, you are doing a wonderful job too (I follow this cannel for a long time, but still don't know your name, sorry!).
I must also add that subjects evolving Elves are among my favourit topics always (ever since I started to read Tolkien in my teenage years I became fascinated with the Elves' stories, specially the Noldor ones)...
So what can I say more? Well thank you very very much for all the information and metioning the sources, you've doing a wonderfull work! Cheers from Portugal!
Elves, one hundred percent.
Beautiful, wise and immortal sounds more better. They're literally the favored race by Eru. Plus you'll have all the time to master multiple skills/crafts and languages.
which will do jack all when dagor dagorath destroys the world. elves are tied to the world, and thus perish with it.
men however are not tied to the world like the elves or the ainur from the timeless hall that entered.
humans are eru's favored children as he severed them from fate, and thus have their own free will and can make their own destinies. the gift of death is in actuality a gift of leaving the world for eru's halls.
that's what Tolkien's writings seems to support.
@@cr90captain89 well atleast, elves fade and die. No afterlife, thus no pain and suffering, only peace where they rest forever instead of men having the fate of "oh we got to live in a boring hall until we sing for the world again even after we die" even the old guy who is tired of living still is existing as a soul singing for the birth of a new world. Elves all the way.
@@GuyChooo I heard they became ghost after. I'm not sure. Elves does have amazing gifts. But men directly go to Eru himself. If the world dies elves will perish in nothingness.
So basically the gods did a little trolling.
I understand what those who want immortality feel like, my hatred for death is extreme, so much that I find it very hard to enjoy a mortal life. Somehow it feels like, as long as my life will end one day, it's the same as not having existed to begin with, like everything is just an illusion. That thought drives me mad sometimes.
Beautiful Video my friend. Subscribed.