Hey guys I had to remake this video due to some copyright issues, though I added some extra insights since the last one :) I'd love to hear your thoughts on Denethor and if this video changed your mind about his character! As always feedback is welcome and subtitles are available!
Boramir added insight when he said "by the blood of our people are your lands kept free" when the fellowship met together. Imagine holding the title and responsibilities of Steward (note the placement of his throne below that if the kings throne), sending your own people to be killed to protect others who are unaware of their sacrifice, and then learn that he will be usurped by a Ranger claiming to be King. I've always felt sorry for Denathor. He got a raw deal.
My heart has always gone out to the Lord Denethor. He is truly a tragic figure. He loved Gondor so much, and when he was made to feel he could not protect it, he broke. 😕
I felt that Denethor was quite resilient, he did not bend at all but when he did break, it was done in spectacular fashion. Most people will probably remember him as the madman
Honestly, denethor is one of the very few points of the movie trilogy I'm unhappy with. He was at his lowest point and lost a mental war with Sauron himself. That he held on for a few days at all is remarkable.
Actually when you look the the history of Denethor's use of the palantir in context whith what happened to Saruman, it makes him look better, not worse. Both of them used their respective palantir to effectively lock horns with Sauron. The difference being that saruman was twisted to the point where the dark lord broke him completely and turned him into a puppet. Denethor on the other hand managed to resist Sauron enough to never truly bend to his will. Instead, his mind eventually broke. When you really think about it it means that Denethor actually had more psychological and spiritual fortitude than a maiar who was considered to be the greatest of the istari. ...Just chew on that for a bit.
I concur. although the actor did a good job portraying that role for the movie, I do wish they didn’t portray both denethor and faramir more closely to how they are in the books. Didn’t do them justice
@@zacklemay3543 No I wasn't (aside from the hobbit). In fact I am in the middle of seriously reading all 3 of the main books right now for the first time, but over the past few months channels like this one revived my interest in Tolkien's legendarium by introducing me to mountainsof lore and depth that I had up till then known nothing about. Years ago when I had only saw the movies I knew very little about the fall of Numinor, even less about the wars of beleriand, nothing about the Angmar wars, or almost aything else in-between.
Didn't he also lose his wife years earlier? If so, his losses would be terrible to bare alone. He also had to protect Gondor. He had so much to do in his lifetime.
I thought of Denethor and Saruman as being in the same position. Both were wise and powerful rulers, both had a palantir and Sauron convinced them both that he was unstoppable. Saruman fell into corruption; Denethor only fell into despair. Whilst Denethor gave up on fighting orcs, at least he wasn't breeding them like Saruman. In this way, Denethor was much stronger and had a purer heart than Saruman.
I do love the insight that the final straw convincing Denethor that Sauron was unstoppable occured as Frodo was captured. Maybe that's why the Mouth of Sauron went out to meet Gandalf and co at the Black Gate with Frodo's shirt etc - Sauron was trying to see if the same trick could work twice.
I would add that they were both at least somewhat narcissistic. They believed wholeheartedly that they were right and had no self-doubt. So when they were deceived it was even easier for them to fall under the power of Sauron. Sauruman was tricked into believing he was an equal and Denethor that he and his kingdom was doomed. Had either had a more wise attitude they may have shared their concerns with their peers.
I reckon Saruman was already prone to power-hungry antics before allying with Sauron, after all, he wanted to turn against Sauron and use the ring against him. It began when Gandalf was given a ring of power instead of him, and probably more so in The Hobbit when Gandalf was offered to be the leader of group tasked with investigating rumors of Sauron's return. Denethor had a series of tragedies in which some were partly his own doing and some were just fate. He was just a man, but a great man who fell hard.
The main difference, also, between Saruman and Gandalf was that Saruman was in love with his own wisdom whereas Gandalf was never too trusting even of himself and *always* pursued the matter to its heart rather than resting on his laurels. And Denethor was in fact a very noble man, I don't find it surprising that even after his mind was so badly broken by Sauron he still managed to rule. I mean when you're the guy everyone's depending on you can't just take a mental health day.
I always imagined that Denethor saw unspeakable horrors through the Palantir of Minas Tirith, but didn't know it was because of this. Thanks for another great video, GZ!
I have to agree - I was always astounded that Denethor managed to not give up the secret about the fellowship's plan to Sauron, even though at that point he would have thought that Sauron already had the ring. I suppose there was no reason for Denethor to "mention" what he felt was obvious to Sauron. But that was probably the closest call in the entire story.
Denethor's mind was broken by many, many mental and spiritual struggles with Sauron through the Palantir. In the unabridged original book, it tells of how he had spent many years striving to wrest some small detail of Sauron's mind from him, any possible advantage that might be gained. For in Denethor, it was said, the blood of Numenor ran truer and purer than in any in that day save perhaps in Aragorn, and he was a man of *immense* mental prowess and mettle.
The films really did Denethor a great disservice. He came across as a weak, petty and greedy man who wasn't particularly smart and who mistreated his son and then bizarrely lost his mind when he thought that less-favoured son was dead. He was actually originally very noble, very strong of mind and able to mentally tussle with Sauron for a long time without cracking (vs. even Saruman who became ensnared by the use of his palantir) who finally snapped at the end under immense pressure while he thought he had lost both his sons. Yes, he _was_ prideful and his ultimate actions were the same as in the film as he attempted to do the same terrible thing in his madness, but the journey that he went through should allow for more sympathy for his plight. Something that's also not stated in the film but in the book is that thereafter, whenever anyone looked into the palantir he held as he burned to death, they would see his aged hands withering in the fire, unless they were of strong mind to wrest the vision away from that.
Denethor truly was a living embodiment of the nobility of Numenor. Remember, when Pippin looked at him for the first time he didn't think of Theoden or even Denethor's son Boromir. His mind went straight to Aragorn. Which further goes to show the tragedy of his story.
Denethor was possibly the most tragic character in LOTR, discounting Gollum. He was definitely strong but endured so much: the death of his wife, ruling over a declining kingdom that was constantly harrowed by Sauron, having the Palantir for years and using it to mentally challenge Sauron. How many people would be able to endure that? Then his son Boromir died, and he believed Faramir did as well, and then Sauron tells him that the ring bearer was captured. In a way it is unsurprising that he snapped. Thank Eru that Pippin, Gandalf and Beregond were able to save his son Faramir.
Denethor matched the most powerful entity in a sort of magic matches for 36 years. That alone makes him incredibly powerful, maybe just below Galadriel that was able to perceive Saurons mind and close hers to him.
Denethor the second, named for the Nandorin Elf king. He was a great man and steward. He came up with several strategies for fighting Mordor and engaged Sauron in psychic battles for decades. Glad you did this video
I believe Denethor was a basically good man with some serious flaws, including an overabundance of pride and arrogance. Sauron saw this and used it against him, ultimately driving him insane. Sadly, the movies did not show this well.
@@KarusMBII I think Saruman's flaws ran deeper as he decided he wanted to become the new Dark Lord. Denethor was very strong. A lesser mind going up against Sauron would have cracked swiftly.
@@istari0 Like Pippin when he gazes into the Palantir. Also, Denethor had the actual inherited right and authority to use the Palantir's, less than Aragorn but still FAAAR greater than an outright enemy like Sauron no matter how powerful he was. Saruman was in the same situation as Sauron in regards to the Palantiri, he had no right to use them and this made it easier for Sauron to dominate his mind. Plus like the books said, Denethor and all of Gondor is irrevocably opposed to Sauron by millenia of history, tradition, and a literal war that's been going on for hundreds of years that's VERY close to home(right across the Anduin, in fact, is Sauron's territory).
Perhaps he had to use every last ounce of his strength to hid the true purpose of the fellowship from sauron and what truly broke him in that moment was hiding what the maiar wanted most of all
I totally agree with you! Denethor was mentally very strong to withstand the evil of Sauron! He also managed to keep Gondor together in it's worst moment.
Really nice findings :) But I think there was no luck involved. I think Denethor was so strong-minded that he could conceal his thoughts about the ring mission.
I'm glad to see more of Denethor and you do him justice. I hadn't realized before you pointed it out that Frodo had been captured the same night Denethor looked in the Palantir. This, coupled with his decades of battling Sauron, the situation of the siege(recall too that the Nazghul were regularly permeating the city with despair) the grief of losing his wife, eldest son and thinking his last remaining family member dying due to his own orders would have snapped anyone. His attempt at suicide then, far from madness, appears in this context as a desperate attempt at escape, the last means available to defy Sauron. It's also worth noting that Sauron may have seen the effect the news of the Hobbit's capture had on Denethor and that specifically was why he let the Mouth of Sauron taunt the Fellowship with it. Sauron didn't know the exact details, but he was able to grasp that the Hobbit had been vitally important somehow and news of his capture might break the Captains of the West as it had the Steward of Gondor.
I think you did an excellent job of showing a different side of denethor.... So many times we look at the final results without looking at the path that It took to get to that point.... Denethor was remarkably resilient and strong... Not to mention intelligent.... He obviously put too much pride into his older son hence that's why he put his second son in such a dangerous position not thinking of the outcome.... Obviously blinded by grief led to folly and eventually realization of his errors coupled with no doubt what he found out in the palantir and the underlying pain from losing his wife from years earlier....So yeah I can understand why he did what he did.... And I don't hate him I actually feel sorry for him....
Didn't know about the coincidence in dates and the fact denethor thought Frodo had been captured. However, it doesn't change my good opinion of denethor. Poor guy did what he could. I like his character and think him a badass for mind battling sauron. Great content
If I remember correctly, in the Unfinished Tales there's a chapter on the Palantiri in which Tolkien wrote that it's quite likely that Saruman and Denethor had made contact through the Palantiri, though I really need to double check it (hopefully It's not bad memory on my part 😂)
@@GeekZoneMT It was my understanding that this is how Sauron had put those self-defeating thoughts in his head. He was not the true king and did not have the power to use the stone. So Sauron was able to manipulate him through it.
The fact that he had been using the palantir for as long as he had does speak well of him. Though the movie just said the eyes of the white tower are not blind and did not specifically say he used the stone. He no doubt had encountered Sauron already. That battle would obviously take a toll on him, so by Gandalf's arrival he was already in bad shape. His favored son was gone, which had to be devastating, he sees the enemy is preparing to march, that's a lot going on. He learns of Aragorn, he sees this massive army outside his gates and no help on the horizon. He was in no condition to be steward by then and the movie showed it. It also showed that the ring should have been far away from him. People could think it was locked away, but judging by how he felt about the rule of Gordon, I suspect he would have kept it close by. He'd have doomed his own city.
For a mortal child of Eru, Denethor had an incredible mental fortitude; he intellectually dueled for decades with a being that was millenar in experience and malice, not betraying the cause to the end.
You also need to consider this. Gandalf having learned of Denethor's use of the palantir began to finally understand why the rule Gondor seemed so unstable. He knew that all the time that Denethor thought he had mastery over the palantir and contended his will against Sauron that was only a deception of Sauron. Denethor was never contending with Sauron. He only perceived he was as Sauron wanted it to seem so he could play tease out Gondor's strength to his own advantage. Then when Denethor looked into the palantir after Faramir he despaired because he became aware that he was a pawn of the enemy.
The fact that he was able to withstand Sauron like that is pretty amazing. However, I can’t forgive him for his treatment of Faramir. That’s why he’s such a hard pill to swallow for me.
Denethor... Denethor...Denethor Were do I begin? I only saw the movies and had a pretty bad impresion of him. And old fool without spine who send his own children to their deaths. Now my mind is changed.
Thru the Palantir Sauron saw Denathor's Lust for the crown of Gondor . He fed upon this giving Denathor a sense of power only to crush it by showing him the masses of armies at his disposal. as Well as the Black Sails coming up the river making Denathor believe the south lands had fallen , and that the Rohirrim were defeated . Denathor did not know of the Quest of the ring bearer , but Sauron showed him Aragorn was coming to take the Crown that Denathor believed he deserved .
That's interesting. I never realized that on the night Faramir nearly died Denethor used the Palantir or that it was the same night that Frodo was captured. I have always thought that the reason Denethor was going to kill himself and Faramir was that after seeing the huge size of Sauron's many armies he lost all hope and thought it would be better for him & his son to die by his own hand than to face the consequences of losing to Sauron. (He was probably right as far as that goes.) Denethor was one of the characters that Jackson & Co. did dirty. He was not the only character sullied in the movies. Far from it, Faramir, Isildur, Theoden, and, perhaps even more egregiously than the rest given his role, Frodo himself were all changed for the worse in the movies, but, other than Frodo, Denethor's character got the worst of it. It seems that Jackson & Co. went out of their way to make Denethor look as bad as they possibly could! Don't get me wrong. The way that Denethor treated his son was absolutely appalling, beyond any excuse whatsoever, but he wasn't the incompetent total dirtbag he was portrayed as in the movies. Also, I can't think of a single reason that makes any sense at all, not one, for turning Frodo from the courageous hero he was in the books to the useless wimp he was in the movies. While I am a fan of the movies, that one thing alone makes them terrible when compared to the original story!
I know its been said many times before, but it really sucks how Denathor was depicted in the movies. He was a much more interesting and nuanced character in the books. God Bless.
It is a shame because Denethor had all the attributes of a good king, but only held the title of Steward. I believe his motives for wrestling with Sauron we're pure. He really did want to get information from Sauron that would help Gondor defeat Sauron's forces. I think his downfall really came because he believed that winning the battle of minds with the Palantiri guaranteed that he was actually viewing what he "wanted" to see in the Palantiri. I think Sauron might have feigned losing those battles only to show Denethor what he wanted him to see. It was what Denethor saw in the Palantir that drove him into madness and despair. If Denethor could have had full control of the Palantir, he might have been able to see that Frodo and Sam were not captured by the orcs, but were walking about in Mordor, still capable of fulfilling their mission.
Denathor is in no small way one of the greatest men of middle earth considering what he had stood against for nearly his entire life it shows as Galdalf judged him a Greater and nobler man than Théoden of Rohan which is no small feat he by use of the plantiri keeps Sauron from spreading his influence across middle earth unchecked A Dangerous feat considering what a similar attempt did to a Wizard i think he was given far too little credit in the movie as he was only ever shown after he had heard of the loss of Boromir and was near the point of breaking. lets not forget that such news was exactly what crushed Théodens mind and he had never touched a plantiri to my knowledge at least
I think he jumped cause he knew he had failed Gondor and in a whole the free ppl's of middle earth...and the 1 percent chance they do win he is going to be replaced by the king Mr. Gandolph sir he thought! I can only imagine being in his shoes he has a position that isnt even really a thing! If the line of kings never fails he is never there! a very unsecure and a position i would not want knowing what he knew! Now elsewise he was prob a good leader but once he had all this info ...well what he thought was all the info...you see his decisions go down hill....Alas he is a character i loved to hate!
Hey guys I had to remake this video due to some copyright issues, though I added some extra insights since the last one :) I'd love to hear your thoughts on Denethor and if this video changed your mind about his character! As always feedback is welcome and subtitles are available!
Boramir added insight when he said "by the blood of our people are your lands kept free" when the fellowship met together. Imagine holding the title and responsibilities of Steward (note the placement of his throne below that if the kings throne), sending your own people to be killed to protect others who are unaware of their sacrifice, and then learn that he will be usurped by a Ranger claiming to be King. I've always felt sorry for Denathor. He got a raw deal.
My heart has always gone out to the Lord Denethor. He is truly a tragic figure. He loved Gondor so much, and when he was made to feel he could not protect it, he broke. 😕
I felt that Denethor was quite resilient, he did not bend at all but when he did break, it was done in spectacular fashion. Most people will probably remember him as the madman
Honestly, denethor is one of the very few points of the movie trilogy I'm unhappy with. He was at his lowest point and lost a mental war with Sauron himself. That he held on for a few days at all is remarkable.
Actually when you look the the history of Denethor's use of the palantir in context whith what happened to Saruman, it makes him look better, not worse. Both of them used their respective palantir to effectively lock horns with Sauron. The difference being that saruman was twisted to the point where the dark lord broke him completely and turned him into a puppet. Denethor on the other hand managed to resist Sauron enough to never truly bend to his will. Instead, his mind eventually broke. When you really think about it it means that Denethor actually had more psychological and spiritual fortitude than a maiar who was considered to be the greatest of the istari.
...Just chew on that for a bit.
Yeah I really think that his mental strength and struggle was really overlooked in the movies :(
Were you a fan of the books before watching the movies?
I concur. although the actor did a good job portraying that role for the movie, I do wish they didn’t portray both denethor and faramir more closely to how they are in the books. Didn’t do them justice
@@zacklemay3543 No I wasn't (aside from the hobbit). In fact I am in the middle of seriously reading all 3 of the main books right now for the first time, but over the past few months channels like this one revived my interest in Tolkien's legendarium by introducing me to mountainsof lore and depth that I had up till then known nothing about. Years ago when I had only saw the movies I knew very little about the fall of Numinor, even less about the wars of beleriand, nothing about the Angmar wars, or almost aything else in-between.
Didn't he also lose his wife years earlier?
If so, his losses would be terrible to bare alone.
He also had to protect Gondor.
He had so much to do in his lifetime.
Yeah his wife had died at a really young age for a Dunadan, she was only 38
I thought of Denethor and Saruman as being in the same position. Both were wise and powerful rulers, both had a palantir and Sauron convinced them both that he was unstoppable.
Saruman fell into corruption; Denethor only fell into despair.
Whilst Denethor gave up on fighting orcs, at least he wasn't breeding them like Saruman.
In this way, Denethor was much stronger and had a purer heart than Saruman.
I do love the insight that the final straw convincing Denethor that Sauron was unstoppable occured as Frodo was captured. Maybe that's why the Mouth of Sauron went out to meet Gandalf and co at the Black Gate with Frodo's shirt etc - Sauron was trying to see if the same trick could work twice.
I would add that they were both at least somewhat narcissistic. They believed wholeheartedly that they were right and had no self-doubt. So when they were deceived it was even easier for them to fall under the power of Sauron. Sauruman was tricked into believing he was an equal and Denethor that he and his kingdom was doomed. Had either had a more wise attitude they may have shared their concerns with their peers.
@@MasterMalrubius I agree.
I reckon Saruman was already prone to power-hungry antics before allying with Sauron, after all, he wanted to turn against Sauron and use the ring against him. It began when Gandalf was given a ring of power instead of him, and probably more so in The Hobbit when Gandalf was offered to be the leader of group tasked with investigating rumors of Sauron's return.
Denethor had a series of tragedies in which some were partly his own doing and some were just fate. He was just a man, but a great man who fell hard.
The main difference, also, between Saruman and Gandalf was that Saruman was in love with his own wisdom whereas Gandalf was never too trusting even of himself and *always* pursued the matter to its heart rather than resting on his laurels. And Denethor was in fact a very noble man, I don't find it surprising that even after his mind was so badly broken by Sauron he still managed to rule. I mean when you're the guy everyone's depending on you can't just take a mental health day.
I always imagined that Denethor saw unspeakable horrors through the Palantir of Minas Tirith, but didn't know it was because of this.
Thanks for another great video, GZ!
You're welcome mate! Yeah it would have been awesome to learn a bit more about his visions and encounters with Sauron!
I have to agree - I was always astounded that Denethor managed to not give up the secret about the fellowship's plan to Sauron, even though at that point he would have thought that Sauron already had the ring. I suppose there was no reason for Denethor to "mention" what he felt was obvious to Sauron. But that was probably the closest call in the entire story.
True! Probably comparable to the moment Bilbo spares Gollum. Frodo “failed” in the end, Gollum saved the day.
Denethor's mind was broken by many, many mental and spiritual struggles with Sauron through the Palantir.
In the unabridged original book, it tells of how he had spent many years striving to wrest some small detail of Sauron's mind from him, any possible advantage that might be gained.
For in Denethor, it was said, the blood of Numenor ran truer and purer than in any in that day save perhaps in Aragorn, and he was a man of *immense* mental prowess and mettle.
The films really did Denethor a great disservice. He came across as a weak, petty and greedy man who wasn't particularly smart and who mistreated his son and then bizarrely lost his mind when he thought that less-favoured son was dead. He was actually originally very noble, very strong of mind and able to mentally tussle with Sauron for a long time without cracking (vs. even Saruman who became ensnared by the use of his palantir) who finally snapped at the end under immense pressure while he thought he had lost both his sons. Yes, he _was_ prideful and his ultimate actions were the same as in the film as he attempted to do the same terrible thing in his madness, but the journey that he went through should allow for more sympathy for his plight.
Something that's also not stated in the film but in the book is that thereafter, whenever anyone looked into the palantir he held as he burned to death, they would see his aged hands withering in the fire, unless they were of strong mind to wrest the vision away from that.
Denethor truly was a living embodiment of the nobility of Numenor. Remember, when Pippin looked at him for the first time he didn't think of Theoden or even Denethor's son Boromir. His mind went straight to Aragorn. Which further goes to show the tragedy of his story.
Denethor was possibly the most tragic character in LOTR, discounting Gollum. He was definitely strong but endured so much: the death of his wife, ruling over a declining kingdom that was constantly harrowed by Sauron, having the Palantir for years and using it to mentally challenge Sauron. How many people would be able to endure that? Then his son Boromir died, and he believed Faramir did as well, and then Sauron tells him that the ring bearer was captured. In a way it is unsurprising that he snapped. Thank Eru that Pippin, Gandalf and Beregond were able to save his son Faramir.
Denethor matched the most powerful entity in a sort of magic matches for 36 years. That alone makes him incredibly powerful, maybe just below Galadriel that was able to perceive Saurons mind and close hers to him.
Denethor reminds me of the mad king from GoT but Denethor doesn't kill his own men like the mad king
Denethor the second, named for the Nandorin Elf king. He was a great man and steward. He came up with several strategies for fighting Mordor and engaged Sauron in psychic battles for decades. Glad you did this video
I believe Denethor was a basically good man with some serious flaws, including an overabundance of pride and arrogance. Sauron saw this and used it against him, ultimately driving him insane. Sadly, the movies did not show this well.
I like to think Denethor was a VERY strong person. I feel like your description better fits Saruman :)
@@KarusMBII I think Saruman's flaws ran deeper as he decided he wanted to become the new Dark Lord. Denethor was very strong. A lesser mind going up against Sauron would have cracked swiftly.
@@istari0 Like Pippin when he gazes into the Palantir.
Also, Denethor had the actual inherited right and authority to use the Palantir's, less than Aragorn but still FAAAR greater than an outright enemy like Sauron no matter how powerful he was. Saruman was in the same situation as Sauron in regards to the Palantiri, he had no right to use them and this made it easier for Sauron to dominate his mind. Plus like the books said, Denethor and all of Gondor is irrevocably opposed to Sauron by millenia of history, tradition, and a literal war that's been going on for hundreds of years that's VERY close to home(right across the Anduin, in fact, is Sauron's territory).
Perhaps he had to use every last ounce of his strength to hid the true purpose of the fellowship from sauron and what truly broke him in that moment was hiding what the maiar wanted most of all
Damn never realise or thought about all of this. Great video as always my friend!
Well, I imagine having a mental duel with Satan's right hand devil would leave a few scars.
I totally agree with you! Denethor was mentally very strong to withstand the evil of Sauron!
He also managed to keep Gondor together in it's worst moment.
They need to make an epic rap battles of history video with denethor and sauron, except it's done through the palantir
Your channel is awesome and has entertained me for two years!!!!
Really nice findings :) But I think there was no luck involved. I think Denethor was so strong-minded that he could conceal his thoughts about the ring mission.
Plus, he was the rightful user of the palantir, by office.
I'm glad to see more of Denethor and you do him justice.
I hadn't realized before you pointed it out that Frodo had been captured the same night Denethor looked in the Palantir. This, coupled with his decades of battling Sauron, the situation of the siege(recall too that the Nazghul were regularly permeating the city with despair) the grief of losing his wife, eldest son and thinking his last remaining family member dying due to his own orders would have snapped anyone. His attempt at suicide then, far from madness, appears in this context as a desperate attempt at escape, the last means available to defy Sauron.
It's also worth noting that Sauron may have seen the effect the news of the Hobbit's capture had on Denethor and that specifically was why he let the Mouth of Sauron taunt the Fellowship with it. Sauron didn't know the exact details, but he was able to grasp that the Hobbit had been vitally important somehow and news of his capture might break the Captains of the West as it had the Steward of Gondor.
Connecting the events of Frodos capture and Denethors descend into madness didnt occur to me before.
The movies really did violence to his character or reputation. Made him far worse or stupid
Yeah, perhaps it was an intentional contrast to Aragorn
@@GeekZoneMT perhaps.
30 years of mental fights with Sauron... amazing, now thats Numenor blood of the finest quality :)
He was a much more likable character in the books than in movies, movies didn't give him justice in my opinion
Yep, I 100% agree with you here!
You never disappoint mate, always good topics.
I think you did an excellent job of showing a different side of denethor.... So many times we look at the final results without looking at the path that It took to get to that point.... Denethor was remarkably resilient and strong... Not to mention intelligent.... He obviously put too much pride into his older son hence that's why he put his second son in such a dangerous position not thinking of the outcome.... Obviously blinded by grief led to folly and eventually realization of his errors coupled with no doubt what he found out in the palantir and the underlying pain from losing his wife from years earlier....So yeah I can understand why he did what he did.... And I don't hate him I actually feel sorry for him....
Glad to see you uploading Karl! Thank you! Instant click!
Cheers man! I should be publishing at least twice a month now :)
Didn't know about the coincidence in dates and the fact denethor thought Frodo had been captured. However, it doesn't change my good opinion of denethor. Poor guy did what he could. I like his character and think him a badass for mind battling sauron. Great content
Denethor and Isildur are so great yet so misunderstood.
Karl, did Denethor ever communicate with Saruman using the Palantir?
Interesting question...
If I remember correctly, in the Unfinished Tales there's a chapter on the Palantiri in which Tolkien wrote that it's quite likely that Saruman and Denethor had made contact through the Palantiri, though I really need to double check it (hopefully It's not bad memory on my part 😂)
@@GeekZoneMT It was my understanding that this is how Sauron had put those self-defeating thoughts in his head. He was not the true king and did not have the power to use the stone. So Sauron was able to manipulate him through it.
I never thought of this before. Amazing!
So we can say denethor was kind of hero, strong will and heart
The fact that he had been using the palantir for as long as he had does speak well of him. Though the movie just said the eyes of the white tower are not blind and did not specifically say he used the stone. He no doubt had encountered Sauron already. That battle would obviously take a toll on him, so by Gandalf's arrival he was already in bad shape. His favored son was gone, which had to be devastating, he sees the enemy is preparing to march, that's a lot going on. He learns of Aragorn, he sees this massive army outside his gates and no help on the horizon. He was in no condition to be steward by then and the movie showed it. It also showed that the ring should have been far away from him. People could think it was locked away, but judging by how he felt about the rule of Gordon, I suspect he would have kept it close by. He'd have doomed his own city.
For a mortal child of Eru, Denethor had an incredible mental fortitude; he intellectually dueled for decades with a being that was millenar in experience and malice, not betraying the cause to the end.
Thanks karl . So falls denathor son of echtelion steward of gondor
You also need to consider this. Gandalf having learned of Denethor's use of the palantir began to finally understand why the rule Gondor seemed so unstable. He knew that all the time that Denethor thought he had mastery over the palantir and contended his will against Sauron that was only a deception of Sauron. Denethor was never contending with Sauron. He only perceived he was as Sauron wanted it to seem so he could play tease out Gondor's strength to his own advantage. Then when Denethor looked into the palantir after Faramir he despaired because he became aware that he was a pawn of the enemy.
The fact that he was able to withstand Sauron like that is pretty amazing. However, I can’t forgive him for his treatment of Faramir. That’s why he’s such a hard pill to swallow for me.
If you think about it, this makes Sauron and internet troll!
Denethor... Denethor...Denethor
Were do I begin? I only saw the movies and had a pretty bad impresion of him. And old fool without spine who send his own children to their deaths. Now my mind is changed.
Thru the Palantir Sauron saw Denathor's Lust for the crown of Gondor . He fed upon this giving Denathor a sense of power only to crush it by showing him the masses of armies at his disposal. as Well as the Black Sails coming up the river making Denathor believe the south lands had fallen , and that the Rohirrim were defeated . Denathor did not know of the Quest of the ring bearer , but Sauron showed him Aragorn was coming to take the Crown that Denathor believed he deserved .
That's interesting. I never realized that on the night Faramir nearly died Denethor used the Palantir or that it was the same night that Frodo was captured. I have always thought that the reason Denethor was going to kill himself and Faramir was that after seeing the huge size of Sauron's many armies he lost all hope and thought it would be better for him & his son to die by his own hand than to face the consequences of losing to Sauron. (He was probably right as far as that goes.)
Denethor was one of the characters that Jackson & Co. did dirty. He was not the only character sullied in the movies. Far from it, Faramir, Isildur, Theoden, and, perhaps even more egregiously than the rest given his role, Frodo himself were all changed for the worse in the movies, but, other than Frodo, Denethor's character got the worst of it. It seems that Jackson & Co. went out of their way to make Denethor look as bad as they possibly could! Don't get me wrong. The way that Denethor treated his son was absolutely appalling, beyond any excuse whatsoever, but he wasn't the incompetent total dirtbag he was portrayed as in the movies.
Also, I can't think of a single reason that makes any sense at all, not one, for turning Frodo from the courageous hero he was in the books to the useless wimp he was in the movies. While I am a fan of the movies, that one thing alone makes them terrible when compared to the original story!
02:37 Corsairs of Umbar. Yes.
I know its been said many times before, but it really sucks how Denathor was depicted in the movies. He was a much more interesting and nuanced character in the books. God Bless.
It is a shame because Denethor had all the attributes of a good king, but only held the title of Steward. I believe his motives for wrestling with Sauron we're pure. He really did want to get information from Sauron that would help Gondor defeat Sauron's forces.
I think his downfall really came because he believed that winning the battle of minds with the Palantiri guaranteed that he was actually viewing what he "wanted" to see in the Palantiri. I think Sauron might have feigned losing those battles only to show Denethor what he wanted him to see. It was what Denethor saw in the Palantir that drove him into madness and despair. If Denethor could have had full control of the Palantir, he might have been able to see that Frodo and Sam were not captured by the orcs, but were walking about in Mordor, still capable of fulfilling their mission.
Great vid
Love your videos
Thanks man! :D
hey geekzone when will you make more mythology videos?
Denathor is in no small way one of the greatest men of middle earth considering what he had stood against for nearly his entire life it shows as Galdalf judged him a Greater and nobler man than Théoden of Rohan which is no small feat he by use of the plantiri keeps Sauron from spreading his influence across middle earth unchecked A Dangerous feat considering what a similar attempt did to a Wizard i think he was given far too little credit in the movie as he was only ever shown after he had heard of the loss of Boromir and was near the point of breaking. lets not forget that such news was exactly what crushed Théodens mind and he had never touched a plantiri to my knowledge at least
If only Denethor knew "Stop Drop and Roll"
I wish we had some more scenes in the LOTRnof Denathor.
My mind was changed 🤝
Nice ;)
I do not give him much more sympathy or credit. He should not have messed a Palantir in the first place!
True, though it was still a respectable mental fight on his end
I feel better about Denethor now, however nothing can justify suside and merder!
Thanks!
I did
You are always so fast to comment Sauron, no wonder two Hobbits got past your 'security'
@@GeekZoneMT Most of your videos are lies. When you are going to make a video ”How Illuvitar was scared of Sauron”
How does the first of April sound?
The Fellowship wasn't just, "Lucky".
They where Blessed, by Iluvatar.
Great video to an interesting more dimensional caracter.
Honestly fuck em. To be useless or compliant in the face of the enemy while in a position of leadership is inexcusable regardless of circumstance.
I felt bad for Denethor I really didn't hate him that much, it's just sad.
Didn't Faramir survive the fire his father started?
The movies screwed him over soooo badly.
Yeah 😭
I say Denethor is better character than Headmaster of Laketown.
I love you Coooooral
Mt. Doom scrolling.
I think he jumped cause he knew he had failed Gondor and in a whole the free ppl's of middle earth...and the 1 percent chance they do win he is going to be replaced by the king Mr. Gandolph sir he thought! I can only imagine being in his shoes he has a position that isnt even really a thing! If the line of kings never fails he is never there! a very unsecure and a position i would not want knowing what he knew! Now elsewise he was prob a good leader but once he had all this info ...well what he thought was all the info...you see his decisions go down hill....Alas he is a character i loved to hate!
bong
You sound very maltese