Ineos Grenadier real-world review. 7 days, on & off road, plus towing. Is it a new Defender rival?
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- Опубліковано 27 тра 2023
- The Ineos Grenadier is promoted as being the definitive off-roader and the true replacement of Land Rover's legendary original Defender. But is it really a true Defender rival? Find out here..
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Makes a 12 grand second hand landcruiser look like a fantastic option if you ask me.
Agreed
Hot damn I'd rather have a Jeep Cherokee or a Blazer. Once unholy, you need to go the whole antichrist way!
I'd get a mid range 300 series, add ARB lockers, Bullbar and Sliders and enjoy the ride and reliability.
Totally why I'm keeping mine. It doesn't bing or bong either.
all overpriced by the minds of 'enthusiasts' and propaganda
Harry being as polite and professional as always but in essence he's saying it's a crock of shite - and I agree
I agree
Concur, it's an expensive piece of crap.
Yes the judgement to make the call, the courage to disagree with Britains (Monaco domiciled) richest man and the diplomacy to do it in a measured way.
Roller ball steering is just horrible, and we know that rack-and-pinion works better... And nearly 3 tons?
I know exactly the target market for this though.
I bet it seemed like such a good idea after 5th pint in the Grenadier Pub, after all what does Land Rover know about building off road vehicles compared with a cluster of city boy country sports enthusiasts who are having a liquid lunch.
I wish Ineos all the luck with that creation, If i came into some serious money i would definately buy one!
As an owner of a 2007 (puma) defender 110, the idea you’d spend 75k+ to replicate the experience of driving one is absolutely insane…
Aimed at mugs/fashion victims . .. . .
Couldn’t agree more, totally missed there audience. You would be better off buying a wrangler if you wanted a capable off roader with not much in road manners. OR you could go buy any landcruiser secondhand. And have enough $$ left over to go on a holiday
Have you driven one? I too own a 110 and I love it as if it was a horse. However the Grenadier is the natural successor in a world of sameness. You should give one a go. By the way, the. motor in the Puma is a Ford motor, not like the TD5.
Way cheaper than a G Wagon and this is a new SUV, not really apples 🍎 to apples 🍎 to compare it to a used and well worn car of a similar sort
Love the engineering. Seriously capable and rugged perfectly suited to work.
However £70k !
We run a farm, also we have a holiday let business in Cumbria. We have a second hand Isuzu d max ,it does exactly the type of work a grenadier is designed for, towing, loads of storage with the tailgate down I can fit 40 eight foot scaffolding poles for construction work. And it only cost £16 k . Yes its Achilles Achilles heel is it has a poor clutch, probably due to being hammered during forestry work we did on loughrigg fell in the lakes £ 650 for a new one fitted. Also a dpf clean at £140 that's in five years and 70 000 miles.
Sorry inios love the car but I'm afraid its a Jimbo vanity project. 😅
It’s not a slagging as such,
£70k is a lot of money for a car that provokes the feeling of meh.
Good video Harry, and fair play for not being taken in by the hype around this
Indeed! Many of the other reviewers of this car have it seems?
Does the new Toyota Land Cruiser LC300 exists in the UK?
And Mr Ineos is a faux-nationalist, Monaco-dwelling hypocrite, whose company is responsible for a huge amount of pollution.
@@Thecrazyvaclav No, only the 150 Prado Land Cruiser, but it looks like its time is limited as Toyota UK have stopped taking orders!
Journalists taken in by Grenadier? I don’t think I have seen or read a raving review on this vehicle. That said, it is right up my street for many reasons.
Power sliding past some Alpacas in a Defender. Fantastic! That cancelled out the disappointment of the Ineos.
Got to admire how Ineos has given this so many flaws, just like the old Defender.
exactly its a faithful representation
Sure a new car designed in the 2020s has the same flaw as an old car in the 1970s. Surely it will sell by the millions because people like obsolete shit
@@arboghast8505 how do you mean obsolete ? this vehicle is in the league of a machine and because most people do jobs that dont achieve actual physical things they think machines are obsolete and judge the worth of things the only way they know , by looks and fashion . i guarantee these will be around long after most defenders are twitching electronic corpses
@@arboghast8505 i do hear you though
One could always buy an Opel Insignia. It's a highway cruiser.
It can either do offroad well, or on road well, but if it compromised on offroad capabilities like the land cruiser, it would lose its offroad chops.
The split door is good for towing stuff. The wheel can hit a big caravan if its got storage on the draw bar. Old pajeros or land cruisers had this too. So you can leave the wheel side closed and open the mini door if required to get in the back with something hooked up to the towball.
Was excited about towing but Ford Ranger+ Amaroks 2litre can return far more than 17-19mpg. They also not 69k base standard, + will pass smart city emissions zones. Wrong engine choice here. Should be 2.5, but emissions regs- laws screw up commercial market applications feel for car makers.
@ringobeck9613 Oh yer I agree. I bought a 3L isuzu dmax to tow things. My comment was in relation to harrys comment about the rear doors and why the little door opens by itself.
Maybe useful for carrying long items too if the passenger side front seat folded forward
so they make something convenient to the one time you'll trail something while everybody else has to deal with the annoyance?
Pajeros have always had a single barn door, never a split door like this.
The honesty is a welcome change from other reviews. Thanks Harry.
The “honesty” of the review would seem to hide some kind of bias. I would assume that Harry and JLR have some sort of a deal going.
@@16sputnik7 had. That was years ago. But yes, Harry is a self-professed JLR fan.
@@16sputnik7 Harry is a fan of JLR because they produce good vehicles and he is open about their flaws, Harry did not like the old Defender considering its time had been and long gone, so a vehicle that replicates so much of its architecture was never going to get a bad review.
@@16sputnik7 you claim bias but yet just about EVERY other reviewer for the grenadier seems to be some type of bought out influencer. It’s a nice change to see a different opinion on the vehicle.
I found your review most informative. Most other reviews I have seen were enthusiastic about the vehicle but were, I suspect, based on a brief experience of it. Because you have had it on the farm and used it in varied conditions, you have identified a number of niggling weaknesses that should be attended to in future production vehicles.
Thanks and that's why I no longer attend car launches. I wait until I can have the car for a week and then live with it, even though this generally means my reviews arrive a lot later than all the others..
@@harrysgarage And we appreciate your integrity!
@@harrysgarage And that's why I don't generally watch car reviews from car launches: they're not unbiased.
@@harrysgarage This is why I like your reviews, they're not a superficial look. You send them through the wringer to see if you can really live with it. I often recommend your channel to American viewers too.
Cars or motorcycles, I tend to ignore reviews from the launch. Reviewers that are flown around the world where they are dined and wined and then spend a few hours chaperoned with the vehicle tend not to be the most objective.
Great to hear the shortcomings to balance the largely positive reviews. In Australia the only land cruiser with diff locks starts at $165k without a bull bar, roof rack or tow hitch. The trialmaster Ineos with bull bar ,side steps, two tone leather, heated seats , roof racks, tow hitch, cargo net & recovery gear is $126k. The Jeep can’t tow a mid size off-road van and the seats are bloody uncomfortable. I have driven the Ineos petrol prototype and didn’t mind the steering or footwell (185cm tall). I’ve ordered the petrol variant after driving it. Yes I will drive it to the supermarket. It will however spend most of its kilometres on a highway corrugated dirt roads and white sandy beaches. I’m optimistic about the durability and don’t see the weight as a big negative if I get the longevity on the other side of the scorecard. I did like the character of the vehicle. Time will tell whether Jim’s successful with his dream. I’m prepared to give it a shot😊
Good for you. If you’ve got the money it’s worth a try.
Why did you buy petrol?
Nice to hear. I hope it does well and long enough to fix the front end styling
I'm just glad that a new option in this segment exists--hats off to the founder for bringing his idea to life. Although not perfect by any means, I do hope that it sells and they're able to develop and refine their vision. Thanks as always for the excellent vid, Harry. Cheers from California!
Several points.
They are limited to 6000 vehicle sales in the UK and 30,000 total factory output to avoid fleet CO2 tax penalties. Worse than that for the UK, the 6000 consists of ‘only’ 1700 consumer versions such as the one in the video, the rest must be the panel van or five door [claimed] certified commercial versions which limit the legal speed to commercial van limits which are 10mph less than cars on rural roads and dual carriageways in the UK.
Far more seriously, while Ineos claim that the ‘commercials’ are certified as such, they are being sparing with the truth [being generous here]. While the DVLA does certify them as being commercial vehicles, the HMRC does not and for the five door there is no hope in hell that they will do so. This is due to the weight of the bare vehicle being at least 2.7 tons, leaving only 800kgs cargo capacity, or much less for most specifications while remaining within the 3500kg gross limit. For the HMRC to recognise the five door as a commercial vehicle or dual purpose, like a four door pickup, it absolutely must be able to carry 1000kgs legally. No idea why the van two seat version does not qualify either but the fact is that as of yet it does not.
There will be a whole lot of ‘commercial vehicle’ customers who will have taken Ineos at their word, expecting to reclaim the VAT and get the usual business tax relief but who will be shocked to find it does not qualify. The pretend ignorance given by some sales people is ‘that is between you and your accountant’ is at best disingenuous and at worse intentionally misleading. They know full well that these vehicles do not qualify as being commercial vehicles by HMRC [UK tax authority].
All that being the case there is almost zero [some annual road tax benefit in the first few years] benefit from buying the ‘commercial’ versions [that aren’t] over the consumer version. That means that they will struggle to sell the 4300 commercials they need to exceed 1700 car sales. I don’t think that the future pickup version will help either because that will never qualify as being a commercial vehicle in HMRC’s opinion either, again due to its weight and 3500kg license gross weight limit.
I have a five seat commercial on order and am minded to cancel it. I want a commercial vehicle and will probably get a high specification Ford Ranger or VW Amarok and save £20,000 after claiming the VAT back. If I wanted a luxury 4wd car, I wouldn’t hesitate buying a Land Rover 110 rather than this rather less refined vehicle for a similar price.
Harry needs to take your points into account for his Farm channel review of this vehicle 👍
Here in The Netherlands we have a CO2 tax = adds at least 50,000 euros to the price of a Grenadier. Apart from the 21% VAT. Defender has a (theoretically) frugal plugin hybrid version that only gets about 3,500 Euros in CO2 tax.
The INEOS will only sell here as a commercial vehicle, they are tax free.
The production numbers you have provided give useful insight into the marketing strategy and the push towards selling commercial variant with poor rear legroom. I placed one of the approx £400 deposits in Oct 2021, went to a local dealer (who was excellent) in Spring '22 to see a prototype (liked aside from step in floor when seat folded) and had a passenger ride. When prices were announced, it was disappointing that to get full rear leg room, you had to order one of the two more expensive launch editions with pre set options. I wanted to spec up a base 5 seater but that only came with the more forward mounted rear seat. In effect, what appeared to be worse leg room than a classic 110 SW (ok when the kids are young, but uncomfortable when they grow above 5'6".) So I retrieved my deposit and we've just kept running a couple of classic Defenders that continue to fulfil most of our needs and saved a few quid.
@@williamdrijver4141
INEOS GRENADIER Fieldmaster edition: from € 170.064
Holy moly.
@@williamdrijver4141
Do you have the 1000kg cargo capacity requirement to qualify the five seater to qualify for VAT repayment? It must be a very common requirement across many countries because all the five door pickup trucks meet it in Europe apart from the rich man’s plaything that is the Ranger Raptor [and equivalent new Amarok variant]
How to make a small fortune in the car industry: start with a big one. Feels like a vanity project that will fizzle out in 5 years tops. I was lukewarm about the new Defender but seeing the Grenadier's foibles makes me appreciate Defender a lot more now, although its design and construction is so expensive relative to the original.
Everyone in manufacturing - please feel free to show us how it's done !
Why are you lukewarm about the Defender? It’s an incredible vehicle.
@@lbco5229 It's the weird "luxury utility" vibe I don't like. It's not a workhorse in the way that a true dual purpose vehicle is - it doesn't have the body style flexibility of a ladder chassis to be cut 'n shut into a pickup, a crane, an ambulance or an infantry support vehicle with a machine gun on the roll cage. At heart it's a luxury car, a sophisticated aluminium monocoque, that's living off the hard-won image of its predecessors. So it's really nothing more than a Range Rover or Discovery 5 dressed in overalls. Land Rover clearly couldn't make money doing another 'workhorse' Defender so they did what they could (and fair play if people lap it up), but to me it's a bit toxic, the brand has disappeared up its own ****.
Great review Harry, I saw the steering damper was lower than the front differential and the fuel tank had a lot of scratches. You mentioned you in the Grenadier weighed 2960kgs so if you put 3 other full grown adults in it at 15st or 95 kgs your vehicle now weighs 3245kgs and once you put on your roof rack and roof tent and pack the back out for an expedition your going to be touching if not over 3500kgs.
I’m glad someone has finally given an honest review and not get taken in by all the shiney bits.
Most of these so called expedition adventure rigs are overloaded anyway so your point may be a valid one but inconsequential
Like you Td5 Rage I just want it to fail. I don’t care how good or bad it might be. How dare it try to rival a Land Rover product which everyone knows, has no faults whatsoever. Please don’t ask me to give it some time and see how it pans out. I just want it gone.
@@philipkearns9757 Defender was cancelled hence the Ineos version...and then Land rover came out with a new version facts
@@lutomson3496 Hello Lu. The Ineos version was developed because JLR would not sell their tooling for the old Defender to Ineos. Fact. Perhaps the irony of my last post was missed by you. I own a Grenadier which is a great improvement over my old Defender.
I weigh 2250 in my Defender 130! Seems Grenadier is over-constructed and you will pay for that on your fuel bill.
For the vehicle that was supposed to do away with the old defender problems… I think they missed 😔 and this comes from someone looking at what would replace my TD5 in the future
It's a nice shade of green, and that's about it really
Looks like a Volvo colour I had in the 80's
trendy green, not gonna last in 5 years imo
A jimny lcv review would be very cool, to see how it copes on the farm and running errands compared to the big boys.
Shropshire Quads is doing a UK Jimny pick up conversion, but sadly the 4 door Jimny pickup Suzuki debuted 3 years ago at the Tokyo Motor Show was just a styling exercise.
Compared to the big boys? Mate the offroad big boys are Suzuki and Toyota. Land Rover haven't made a proper offroader since the disco before last. These new defenders are so heavy they get found out right away on farmland and a little Suzuki or a tractor has to come and pull them out. Another thing is that a proper Offroad vehicle HAS TO BE reliable.. if its not then it can get you killed. For that reason alone I cannot take LR vehicles seriously.
@@bigduphusaj162 LR products are ONLY for posing these days
@@philjackman3734 yes I'm ex-army was a para for 16yr then in the Reme for 6yr spent most as older VMb then done tracked course and Bordon again to get VMa for my last 2yr soley to get away from Land Rovers. I've been in over 300 of them roughly over 10-12 different countries and three war zones with them. Strictly REME wise on the tools maybe worked on 100 of them. Personally I've had three of them and sold them on quick when everything was on the downward spiral after the refurbishments. I've had 2 Discos older ones and had 3 rangeys last shape being the newest and C-plate the oldest. Last 2 Rangeys i had was for my job company car I'm a marine mech now and Land Rover suck a Suzuki for £3k with a lift kit, rims and decent tyres beat them all day every day nevermind the Isuzus and Toyota Land Cruisers I paid my own cash for. I also do jetboat trails (smaller UK jetboat alloy hull with jetski motor) on the river Clyde now mostly and I have a Mayland Fisher 26 that I take all over the place sometimes to work when the smaller ribs they hit us with are just not cricket for the area we are in. I even bought a pinzgauer half and half with one of my mates who got it cheap still serving over in Germany he tax freed it before he came home at the end of his 22. We welded a smaller 5th wheel platform on it at the back after removing the lower section at the rear and we welded the spare section up front to make a front tow bar and a lorry wag and drag pin so we can push even our big containers on 30ft-45ft frame trailers about with it and push boats in the water forward style rather than reversing and can even take a drag A-frame trailer in the coupling it has. The air supply was the first thing beefed up on the pinz.
You asked for my credentials and now you have them. I'm happy to do a short private vid to prove I have what I say and tell me when you seen it I will take it down if that cements any claims.
Your credentials are?
@@_Ben4810 I remember a 2 door pick up concept, a gold one, it looked fantastic but it definately needs a longer bed to be of any use, i hope the 5 door jimny comes to eu, that would be the perfect off roader for most people, capable cheap light
Thanks Harry! What makes your reviews compelling is that they are always practicality based. Keep up the good work!
Practicality based? You have got to be kidding. His Defender 90 review as a farm vehicle was cringeworthy. No farmer in Australia would even consider such a small, impractical vehicle as a serious workhorse, just because of the short wheelbase, small interior space, poorer towing capability due to said wheelbase and this is before you add Landrover's legendary modern reliability. Harry lost a lot of credibility for me in that review and he's not really a mechanical guy either going by the many videos I've watched. I do like watching his videos however, but more so the travel ones where he uses his cars and talks about them, this I think, is where he does his best work.
Hmmm, me thinks your Land Rover underwear was showing here Harry. You are very loyal to the brand.
I would have this in a heartbeat over a Defender, if I was in the market for such a vehicle. The current Defender is way too Chelsea set (or worse Cheshire set) for me, and the slow steering is perfect for off road use....you surely wouldn't buy one if you weren't going to set-it to work, I still have misgivings over L-R build quality.
I see this as good value...a cut-price G-Wagen. This is a pretty good effort for a first vehicle from a previously non-existent motor company....already substantially better than the old Defender despite decades of development.
Great to see a conventional key (masterstroke) ...... time L-R gave up on the useless keyless-go before no one can get insurance on their product.
Thanks for the review Harry and fair play to Jim Radcliffe for going ahead and building it although very sadly not in the UK. After a lifetime of Land Rover Defender ownership this would have been right up my street but it's too expensive, the BMW engine puts me off and it just doesn't seem to have been properly thought through. Land Rover even managed to retain the alpine windows which must cost to include but the Grenadier has even deleted those. The local dealer has a yard full of them and farming friends of mine appear to be steering clear and ordering Defenders or Hiluxes..
The BMW engine is better than anything JLR can make. That's the least objectionable decision about the vehicle.
BMW engines shouldn't put you off and the ZF 8-speed gearbox is one of the best gearboxes out there. I expected to like the Grenadier but once I lived with it for a few todays, there were too many annoyances that got in the way of using it, the key ones being the driving position and the steering.
BMW 3 liter diesel and petrol are great!!!!! Thing is i think 249 hp is not enough...should offer more hp for towing a trailer...
Straight 6 BMW engine B57/58 - you cannot find a better engine. Jim R was smart to stick with the non-turbo engine. With proper oil changes, that engine should last forever. Range Rovers use BMW engines. The Range Rovers use BMW N63. Land Rover Defenders use ZF gearbox but it seems like they hide the sourcing more. It appears it uses the BMW S68.
Toyota works with BMW and the Supra is a BMW. The only other company, that I am aware that Toyo works with, is Mazda. Mazdas now are probably as reliable or more reliable than Toyotas. BMW is the most reliable German brand these days. Audi and Mercedes reliability is dire. VW and Porsche are only slightly better than Audi and MB.
This is the TVR of the 4x4 world and absolutely something that Peter Wheeler would have come up with. Comparison with old Defender is on point. Comparisons with new Defender are futile as new Defender is completely unrelated to old Defender in all but name and targets a completely different market. (Think BMW Mini vs Austin Mini). Good objective review, thanks Harry. Grenadier is a good first stab. I expect it will evolve well but who will buy it ...? People that want the look with occasional capability will buy a Defender which knocks this thing out the park. Equally, farmers all drive L200s, Hikuxes or Navaras. Don't see who's gonna buy it sadly...
Yes, or they will buy a G-Wagen, which I think is not talked enough about in the context of this thing
Peter Wheeler was developing the Scamander as a multi use (farm & military) vehicle. Don't know what happened to the prototype.
@@eze8970 He was indeed.
@@philjackman3734 I went for best of both. I have a new Defender 110 and a Cerbera 4.5. Ok, maybe I'm stupid but they're both epic...!
No, Ineos' Grenadiers seem to be a flawed design really well executed, when TVR was the opposite.
Grenadier is a quality product looking for a target market. On paper it might be there and anyway I'm sure a car company won't be dependent on runaway success of its first model: that would be madness and would mean throwing away all that investment so incompetently it would be unbelievable. As long as it builds its brand and increases trust the real decider will be the upcoming models and next generation.
I'll never be in the market for one of these but am curious. I have watched both of your candid reviews now and as always they came across as a very genuine independent real world honest review.
Having watched them I actually have a greater appreciation for my old P38 Range Rover that I have been using as my daily driver and general workhorse for six years now. It doesn't have the locking diffs (though they are available) but it has certainly proven to be capable.
One point, the pitman arm ball steering is not to prevent feedback off road, it is because that is the only steering system you can have with a fixed front live axle and you have that front axle for simplicity, strength and articulation. Jeep Wrangler have exactly the same vague steering feel, but it has been improved. You can tweak this by changing the wheel track (to force centering), or just get used to it.
IIRC the G class used the recirculating ball steering as well until the new version with the independent front suspension came out. But mercedes used that system on their pasenger cars for many years too
If you swapped the front wings for skinny ones with indicators/sidelights lights on top, everyone would immediately see its Steyr origins.
Indeed. A poor copy of the G-Wagon.
Great minds think alike 😅!
@@Fluterra But also a lot lot cheaper so probably a lot better value
@@JRattheranch or is it that nothing is as similar as 2 fools?
Just kidding.
@@Fluterra why a poor one?
Modern G-Wagons are just fragile SUVs, so the grenadier is probably better.
I like the design but its just too expensive for being utilitarian. What made the defender so cool to me was how widespread it was but i cant see this becoming too popular because of the price
So how does it compare with the price of a ‘Twisted’ Defender? 🤔
Everything is expensive now, cars have gone nuts. Like Harry said, who would have thought you could get a 60 grand Golf?
Yes, far too expensive, it is more a HumVee H2 but a LandRover.
I agree, it's an expensive utility vehicle, compare it to a Hilux Invincible X with a couple of extras £40,000 thats nearly £30,000 less expensive. If it competed with the Hilux on price then I could see it working well, but no farmer I know will buy it.
@@TheDoosh79 yeah il but this feels way more bare bones than what youd get on a some fancy golf. Still 60k for a golf is bonkers. But his friend still bought (i assume) so idk what to think, people are willing to pay
Great review. You hit most of the points I noticed when we had a chance to sit in one in Australia. (The driver’s seating position and visibility/blind spot is very poor etc)
I had put my deposit down the second we had the chance but after seeing it in the flesh I cancelled my order. I drive a 2007 Discovery 3 which does all my off-road use with ease and is super comfortable/quiet on the highway and around town. More space than the new Defender too. Not sure why this Grenadier has to be so expensive either but, like you said, all vehicles are going that way. Thanks again for a great video. Keep up the good work.
That B pillar is a worry.
For me too.
Awesome as always.Thanks for sharing and taking us along
great video Harry, I have started seeing these on the road now. I am curious, so thanks for sharing!
I've followed this from day 1 and loved the whole 'blokes in a pub' thing, then we had lots of union Jack waving and images of old Land Rovers, but since that it's been developed in Austria, been given a German engine and gearbox and then they screwed Wales and went for a French build, it was also meant to be better priced. Now, to me, it looks like a Santana version of an old Defender, if you want something like an old Defender with a BMW engine there are plenty of LR specialists that will build you one, a genuine one, not a French built fake.
And it's clearly been built to be left hand drive 😂
Now there speaks someone without a clue.
@@philipkearns9757 Yes you did.
Ratcliffe didnt screw the Welsh. Economic conditions and the people responsible for those conditions did. A deal could have been done but 'they' didnt want to even meet him half way. Its not the first time 'they' have done similar while giving 10's of millions to foreign company's who took the money and then left after a couple of years....screwing the local people and local economy.
It’s overpriced and overweight. It was also meant to be uk made. Owner wanted brexit but then built it in France. Twat
Really interesting watch, thanks for sharing it! I saw one in the flesh for the first time the other day at the local BP station... Looked great. Owner non too happy, interior build and some electrical problems. But... he was hopeful it would be rectified and sorted out.
fair balanced review good to see that I was not alone with my assessment and you also caught most things I complained about.
Great review as always. No way could I live with that left-footwell obstruction though!
I think people were expecting this to drive as good as the new defender. It won’t because this is more similar to the original defender, whereas the new defender is sort of unrecognisable as a defender and had to sacrifice Its similarities with the old defender to drive so good
Thank you for an excellent review Best I’ve seen. I am sitting on a contract that expires today for a petrol Utility Wagon. £55,000 inc. VAT. And same colour as the one you tested. The VAT is a moot point because of the sheer weight and load capacity of the vehicle so it is classed as N1 but can carry < 1 tonne. I am a farmer and currently drive a 2004 Disco, a 2015 Disco and a 2018 DMax.
I am wavering!
Great review, very honest and practical assessment and not through rose tinted glasses as most others are. The world has evolved for the better with most new vehicles these days, so it will be interesting to see how long it lasts on the market.
Reviews through 'rose tinted glasses'? Only those done by Inneos. There's heaps out there now with folks doing reviews with no glasses at all. Usual stuff. Haters and lovers.
The rocker switch protectors on the roof don't extend past the end of the switches. And you'd still be able to hit them with you'd head or passing items through even if they did. Things like that annoy me on vehicles touted as utility first (designers vs engineers having sway). Same as the rear door. I think I'd find many things to annoy me if I were to own one. The exhaust invading into the footwell is unforgivable. Either way I hope it succeeds and to a Gen 2 and can address issues based on owner feedback.
The old Defender was full of annoying design decisions so I guess this is true to tradition :-)
I agree with you. However, Ineos don't seem to be particularly keen to accept constructive criticism and their behaviour to date suggests that they don't care much about their customers and especially communicating with them. That is the impression that I am getting and it is getting stronger as time goes by which is very unfortunate.
@@andrewjones-productions I can agree with about not caring about customers - I called the phone number in USA and a lady that couldn't speak English that I could understand answered the phone, so I've lost my interest in this product.
just FYI: those are no protectors but are meant to guide you to switch without looking at them and give better grip when you are at an angle to hold and still switch with ease...
@@andrewjones-productions Very few billionaires listen to, or react to others' opinions.....sadly.
Best review thus far. I agree with one phrase that Harry said. That is, "it (the Grenadier) exists". Yes, I think that this vehicle coming to market in 2023 is important. Whether it can sell enough, or alternatively have a mass-market product that can sustain it, is yet to be seen. As Harry said, it is a niche within a niche and unless the school run gang and the celebrity gang catch onto it and it becomes the next best thing since sliced bread, I tend to feel that the forces of economics will perhaps likely see it be a bit of a flash in the automotive history pan. Hopefully I'm wrong on that.
Yeah, I can see Jim making a huge loss on this endeavour unless some big organizations put some huge orders in.
I can see the European militaries ordering a load of these. Those that are running Defenders have been paying out to get them refurbished to make them last longer.
Pretty much my thoughts too. It’s priced as a luxury product, and it’s not really targeted at the real hard-core overlanding/off roader spec that buyers outside Europe will want. It’s a mighty impressive first try though.
@@Pesmog European militaries, that’ll be Albania, Italy and possibly Türkiye, who gave a lot of their defenders to err Albania when they something else, can’t see the Falkland Islands defence force putting in huge orders, they’re the only ones I could find using old defenders.
Ukraine is using a few at the moment, as if they aren’t suffering enough it’s out having to drive old defenders as well.
the small rear door is a perfect dog door according to my wife
Never knew there was a Harry’s farm. Will check it out. Love your content Harry. Your reviews are credible
Excellent , thank you harry, an honest review and not press videos or press review!!!!
Those Fiat stalks wouldn't pass a grandson stress test.
I really liked the gentlemanly way you structured your conclusion. Although I agree, kudos to the guy who built what he liked. This sort of creativity is very rarely found today.
Nice to see someone finally giving fair criticism to this vehicle. Can't say I agree with every criticism given here, but at least criticism is given instead of the usual "OMG look at all these buttons!".
these are real reviewers, none of that self absorbed and low expertise “influencer” nonsense
always love the honest reviews.
I've been following this car for a longgg time. This is a great video!
One of those with a mild tune would be the ultimate fun buggy
Harry, I think, once more, you nailed it! It’s the most objective test, I saw so far! Bravo!
reminds me of when JMay is reviewing a car he doesn't like.
Happily I got to sit in one at the little car show in Erfurt Germany a few months back. Blew me away! Pictures don't do it justice even with the odd and unattractive front end. It feels unbelievably solid and well put together. Last time I experienced that from any vehicle was the G wagen and or military vehicles I've driven. This green looks amazing on this iteration. Happy to see this come up on my feed. The only thing I question is the reliability of the BMW motors. Unless these are their 'tried and true' motors? Great vid!
Excellent review H.. Honestly done!!! I work for Ineos.
The decade old discoveries etc appear to be impossible to keep on the road for engine failures, etc, unless one is an engineer with a two poster ramp. Will be interesting to see the longevity of this. Will they last for decades like the original defendee? I like the new defenders, but the people who can afford a new one will get rid after two years before the real pain starts.
With all the new emissions and therefore complex BMW Engine you will get troubles with the cables, sensors and all the plastics/rubber in 20-30 years using it in difficult terrain (heat, dust, ...) but seeing all the cars from 2000+ going strong in africa with basic maintenance, I think it will be OK.
20 years time you won’t be able to get the fuel.
"The people who can afford a new one will get rid after two years before the real pain starts" - it will be really interesting to see the number of repeat Grenadier buyers and the number that bail out in the first & second years of ownership
Modern BMW engines fail to get past 60k miles without troubles. It's the biggest failing of the car.
@@Voodoo_One BMW engines complex? Hahaha 😂 BMW don't even understand cross-plane cranks, vairable inlet stacks, belts in general, gaskets or bottom end journals😂 you for real mate? Even a bogo base model Mazda has Vairable inlets so do Suzuki a 2006 Grand Vitara has Vairable inlet stacks, proper Vairbale Valve timing and doesn't throw the chains off as they know how to make tensioners not spring out like a window wiper that's unclipped itself at full speed in a 100mph gale😂 BMW engines are about as complex as a Fisher Price toy and about as reliable. Even the N and M57 diesels are a cheap copy of a 4 decade old early Merc 0M606. The V10 is abysmal its the worst bottom end I've ever opened on any engine it practically wears everything on the bottom end from showroom miles. Mazda RX8 renesis rotary is more reliable than most BMW "performance" engines.... and don't get me started on the "closed deck that isn't a closed deck at all" junk B58 that's now a absolute nightmare of an engine and recently landed BMW back down the bottom of engine failure rate charts with its expectancy to do 100k miles being factually as likely as the horrific N47. Ohh man 😢
Want to know the funniest bit? See the same shill review sites that named B58 "engine of the year" and claimed it was the next 2JZ?? Yeah they were the identical same sites and shills that gave N47 "engine of the year" before its inevitable rapid decline and abysmal reputation it has now. Please mate BMW don't even know how to do a liner or plating they messed up terribly in the past with the Nikasil plating drama and now in their desperation they teamed up with Ford for the Plasma Arc welded plating on the bores. Bare in mind Ford are the other company known for not knowing how to plate or line a cylinder bore and bare in mind the method used is now cracking all over the place in the top 2" of the deck where the deck shelf heats up at a higher rate.
Just remember there are mechanics and engineers on Harrys comment section. Cheers and no hard feelings
A good honest review Harry! Appears to have quite a few short comings for a brand new vehicle which is a shame because it looks the part.
Great review. A modern old defender is the best way to put it...all the good. All the bad. Warranty.
I lusted after a NA 110. Had one. It was not for me.... I am perhaps too soft but I'd rather get a LR110 today. The old defender is the "Joe Cool" of cars, but at least mine drove like a tractor...and honestly, 85% of the time I needed it to deal with tarmac...so it was horrendous for that set of needs....the newer unit is just the ticket if I go for one of these. In the Gobi desert, this would be awesome.
That wading footage of the Defender at 22:45 is incredible! I briefly had a 2015 Jeep Rubicon and wrote it off the first time I took it off-road (hydro-locked the engine) going slowly through water shallower than that.
Saw a 23 plate dark grey Grenadier in a certain Cotswolds high street on Friday. Got to say it idles and drives quieter than a TD5. You didn’t mention the B Pillar on your shoulder so must be more room. Looked strangely familiar but have to say not as good looking as a Defender. And there’s no shortage of TDi’s and TD5’s in that area to compare it against. The clutch in both Tdi and TD5 were no joke after a few miles so the auto is a god send. Personally I’ve towed with a Jeep plenty of times and liked it. Felt stable and “unfussed”. I always felt Defenders were too rigid on a ladder frame and didn’t soak up as much. The untried market would scare me off on the Grenadier. But then being able to afford a new Defender is one thing, but being able to afford it and use it as a tool is another thing. They’ve priced themselves out of the commercial market. But maybe that’s just on my budget.
So much expectation but it seems to fall short in the real world. Well done Harry for saying it as it is, all too often there's a fair degree of 'sucking up' when it comes to vehicle reviews. Of course I wish Ineos well but it looks like an old agricultural design in a market that has moved on both aesthetically and technically. I loved my old Land Rover TD5, in fact I kept it for over 20 years and I would still put it against this Ineos any day of the week but I wouldn't buy a new one today?
The aesthetics are for people who don't want to move on. There is demand.
youre whats wrong with the market
And Mr Ineos is a faux-nationalist, Monaco-dwelling hypocrite, whose company is responsible for a huge amount of pollution.
The old Defender was a great mud plugger but a rubbish road car. The Grenadier looks like it's kept the former capabilities while massively improving the latter side, and yet remained sufficiently low tech to not become a namby-pamby Chelsea tractor.
@@JohnFromAccounting That was said of the Rover 75, too. Remember them?
Excellent review as always
I sat in one yesterday. I'm 6" 4' and slim build. I was wearing a summer shirt. Had I been wearing full winter togs and a heavy jacket I'd have struggled to fit in the drivers seat.
Good honest review Harry. I’ve always had an understanding that you never buy the first iteration of a new car and I think that should definitely be extended to startups! I’ve been following the ineos story since the very start and had a deposit down very early on before cancelling and deciding I’d potentially wait for the next iteration when they hopefully iron out a few of these issues.
On my wish list would be
1. Change the internal plastic colour, not sure if it’s just me but that light grey looks absolutely woeful, a darker grey or black would be preferable.
2. Not having the dash binnacle right in front of the driver is fine for me but it’s absolutely screaming to have a head up display. This should be included.
3. Steering sounds like a disaster I hope they fix this.
4. Mirrors look absolutely tiny, noticed your extended mirrors for towing but any big 4x4 has larger mirrors than this?
5. Weird hump on the RHD, surely they can sort this out?
And that, right there, is the best comment so far. And yet, in time, even gen one will come to be seen as iconic.
Splendid Harry thank you.
Harry,
I bought a 2015 Defender for obvious reasons - You can't have it both ways. HD is HD. It isn't for our normalised ease-of-use. It's a shame that cars like this will die out. Unsure what the replacements are going to be...I often tell people, it's like a traction engine I drive to work. They raise eyebrows, but I enjoy it! Driving a late Defender is a lot of fun; an adventure and you can drive them quickly...or anywhere, or do everything, becasue it can...
It's very, VERY flawed, but it is something reasonably reliable and can be fixed without too much issue or cost. Handling with a tuned 170Hp motor is frankly ridiculous🤪 and additionally, fuel efficiency is great too! Especially at 2 ton, due to the alloy body with low CoG chassis mass.
The Grenadier has a lot of flaws. It's great at a lot of things, but misses the mark a bit...
Apart from terrible battery placement and folding seats, the reliable BMW engine has very, VERY limited access by hand, + drivetrain parts are unique and exotic. Nobody uses these specialised drivetrain components outside of tractor manufacturers. Good luck if something goes bang in the middle of nowhere. At least Defender uses standard size, replacable hub bearings etc. for cheap. The driving position RHD is just insane for a production vehicle like this.
I like the concept, but it's just too niche and too flawed to be a worthy contender to a 70 series LC, now that original Defender has ended production (LCs have a lot of issues and in many ways, are worse than a last gen Defender, but at least they're simple).
Pity LR sold it's soul to produce unreliable crap. No way would I take a new Defender into unchartered territory...Can't deny the tech prowess, however you might end up dead if going remote!
I'm keeping my 2015 as long as I can stay alive. I purchased it new for this purpose. I wouldn't normally buy a new car, as I don't like them - no soul. Safety aside, they're not interesting and not designed to last. FYI I'm under 40!
You share the sentiment: Life's too short to drive boring cars.
unfortantly the ritch get to buy and vote for the next pece of junk that peopl have to try to make work for the next 20 years.
BTW The ladder chassis and "big axles" have nothing to do with the lack of on-road body roll! Whilst the static roll centre is fairly high for a beam axle which can reduce the effective roll couple, the reason this vehicle doesn't roll much is because it cannot be allowed to roll too much ie it has been set up with a large amount of cross axle roll stiffness. With no camber compensation in the beam axles (unlike for independant systems) if you let the body move too much, the phase lag between hand wheel input and vehicle yaw becomes huge, add some tyre tuck and as people used to regularily find out back in the day in soft beam axled 4x4's at high speed, it's very easy to suddenly find your world has turned upside down! Modern 4x4 have much more roll stiffness because they must be suitable for modern high speed roads and must of course pass all the necessary on-road dynamics certification tests, (moose test, lane change, etc...) An orignal coil sprung 90 or 110 (or of course the original range rover from which they took their chassis & suspension) without any anti-rol bars and very low cross axle spring rates (necessary to maintain an even tyre load when off road as they had no diff locks) simply could not be sold today as the chassis dynamics are un-acceptably poor
What does it sound like when a polite, urbane Englishman hates a car but feels vaguely awkward about saying so? It sounds exactly like this. 😅 I am SO GLAD you told it straight. Politely, yes, but honestly.
Thanks for the review.
Makes me appreciate the he Defender and still miss the classic one!
🤲🙏🌷
Spent the week waiting for this…
It seems to me that instead of making such a direct rival for the new Defender, they should have made something more along the lines of the old Defender. By taking this route Ineos have gone head to head with not only the new Defender, but a number of other rivals, whereas there was a gap left in the market by Land Rover ceasing production of the traditional utility model. I'd like to see how the more utilitarian version stands up to comparison, the one thing the market doesn't really need is another luxury SUV.
Suzuki Jimny was in high demand for this reason. They just needed to make a bigger one.
@@edwardmullan2724 That's how I was picturing what they should have made. It's liked they asked to buy the rights to the old Defender and then having been told no, decided to build something much closer to Land Rover's new version than the an updated version of the vehicle they presumably wanted to keep in production.
An odd one to recreate as you say, I recall driving a defender 110 on 4 hour country road journey, it was the most uncomfortable experience and I couldn't wait for the journey to end!!!
Fantastic review of the Ineos Grenadier Boutique Defender. I love the car and the engineering made from classic modern to fixing the Bugs.
As you mentioned in the end of the video, more off road thrills and capability are offered with others vehicles, with a bit more modern vision of what is a off roader car should and must have been 20 years ago . practical, functional and Fun !! That one looks thought and perhaps going to Dakar and back on just petrol and tyre pressure check ?
Neither the less , hat off to the designer and project manager who perhaps loved that defender so much that they decided to make it better and, more or less the same, but better, . Now, how durable and maintenance plan is within heavy daily duty use or not . Looks like it s up to the job.
Future classic. Version 3 will be a world beater. Great start chaps
If they stay in production. Too many flaws for a 2023 car.
Hi Harry, love all your reviews. If I lived in the UK, I’d agree with your assessment of the Grenadier. In places like Australia and Africa where 4wd’s get used and aren’t for show it’ll be very practical albeit very expensive. It’s hopeful reliability over the likes of British and American competitors could set it apart.
Expensive in Oz compared to what? A Toyota 300? A Landrover Defender? What make, other than Chinese, makes the Grenadier look over priced?
Super review. Nice and honest. Re: the small rear door - most will probably be driven by one man and his dog, so maybe the small door is just that...a spaniel door😉
Good honest review, thank you
Harry, love the channel, but everything you don’t like about this rig I think is what makes it great! If it holds up to the off road demands I’m in. Hats off to the team that builds this machine…I love everything about it!!! Great job and I would much rather drive this than a new Land Rover off road!
Harry I have an old Jeep Grand Cherokee and it also has that same lump in the floor on the drivers side. In my case it’s for the starter motor, but over long distances you end up sitting in a slightly twisted position and it plays hell with my back. I wouldn’t care how good the Ineos is off road I think I would avoid it because of the sitting position.
The split 70/30 tailgate was done first in the Isuzu Troopers of the late 80s. I had one and loved it back then.
Still got my '94, but the split was the sensible way round.
I'll never forget the experience I had in a Nissan Terrano 2 99-2006 model I had as a Courtesy Car! It screeched the tyres in the slowest of bends and because of it's slim & tall set up you always felt as if you were about to lose grip and land in a Hedge! I was reminded of it as you screeched round the corner! 😂
Great review as ever, especially compared to some of the other coverage (maybe that should say content) that has been released so far. I can't help thinking that there are some significant areas where it would seem to fall short of the mark as it it has built to answer one man's question. The price is definitely a concern, and residuals could be challenging, which will turn into a horrifying whole life cost story. I'm only round the corner from you, pop by and borrow my 2021 Land Cruiser LWB Commercial for a comparison, which you could then follow up with a video exploring what you could buy with the twenty-five grand that you would save by not buying a Grenadier!
So I think it’s safe to say, if you’re a fan of the old defender you’ll be a fan of the Grenadier. So in a way it has accomplished it’s mission statement….love the review and content as always. Very informative. I’m an owner of the old defender and an enthusiast through and through and as such I’m incredibly biased.
I'm a fan of the old defender and if I had £70k I'd buy three (more) good examples of the old defender.
I've had a Series 3 LWT, Defender 110 Td5, Defender 110 with an ex-RR 4.0V8, Disco 2 Td5 and Disco 3 V8 - they were all great (although the D2 Td5 went wrong in a number of ways), the D3 V8 was fantastic and very reliable (probably because it wasn't a TD/SD V6) but 15mpg isn't viable these days.
Not much fussed about anything that comes out of Solihull these days but equally the Grenadier is just a joke - styling looks like an early Ssangyong Korando for a start. The whole point is that you can't make a car like an original Defender these days - they were simple and rugged and easy to fix, even in the wild. Even if you stick with live axles, recirculating ball steering, etc. you're stuck with having to meet modern emissions regulations which you can only do with lots of clever trickery in the engine which is inevitable unfixable without computers and lots of expensive spare bits to swap-out when something fails.
I was tickled how the doors are as poorly fitting as they are on the Defender, needing a real heave to shut. I wonder if they still give you a wet elbow when it rains!
@@samdurrant3892 where do you get them for this kind of money? Newer 2012 to 2015 vehicles with 30 to 80k km trade here in Central Europe for 50 to 60k Euros
Thank you for honest opinion. Looks like it has potential but needs work
These are coming in through Grimsby Dock - and they look brilliant! Fair few ordered too with the looks of it.
There was already a foreign-made Defender derivative: the Iveco Massif. That was in production from 2007-2011. I'd be amazed if the Grenadier's production run lasts as long.
Grenadier is much more serious vehicle.
@@charlesdr1981 LOL
@@charlesdr1981 What does a ''more serious vehicle'' actually mean...???
I had a disproved theory the Iveco Massif really was going to be the Defender replacement.
All the Defenders are "foreign-made"! The current model is made in........wait for it.......Slovakia! Brexshit I hear you say?
I think this car serves as a good reminder as to why Land Rover made the new defender the way they did. Very few people actually want to make the compromises necessary to drive an old school BoF style 4x4. The only niche I can see tgus car really making sense for Is as a modern alternative for the Land Cruiser 70 series as a basis for over landing builds in Australia, Arica, etc. Even then it’s questionable since you’re not going to have the parts and service network of a Toyota. As a farm vehicle it’s probably too expensive
... nor will you have the reliability (BMW engines - really?).
@@tturtle1659 yup- good luck with that if it breaks down in the Outback
Global big money is investing in everywhere east of Europe
This is for those places and the NGO'S
Look up EU beyond growth agenda and "degrowth" to see the real green agenda.
You forget that some people will just want to drive something a bit different, despite its flaw im sure its an experience in itself.
@@tturtle1659 exactly my biggest concern. There is a good market for more modern alternative to the Landcruiser 70 series but the BMW are renowned for their lack of durability, the biggest strong point of the Landcruiser. It’s a pity because conceptually I could have been interested in one of these but never with those engines. The fuel tank is too small too for remote touring.
You drive quite fast! Great review!
That F40 view from underneath the Grenadier is the ultimate flex :)
Great review Harry. I so so wanted to love this car, but it really feels like, having been criticised by so many people at the time, Land Rover has been completely vindicated with the direction they took the new Defender. It would be one thing if this was cheap as chips, but is £7k more than the equivalent Defender base price!
And it doesn’t even have the Payload, towing, wading, ground clearance or off-road angles of the Defender.
It starts from £55k he got the pricing wrong
Harry doesnt mention the Defender was cancelled, and Ineos picked up the space, and then Land Rover realized their mistake and kept the Defender, and all these wankers complaining about Ineos? they are the reason that Land Rover brought the Defender back..but lets not mix facts with fiction..and vindicated? nope...embarrased more like it when Land Rover fails, all the fanboys jump to the defense.. when their hero brand cancelled the Defender...
@@lutomson3496 your full of it lol. Jim Ratcliffe was mad that LR was building a new Defender not in the exact mold of simplicity as the original and that’s why he reacted and made his own version. The new Defender was in design phase way before he ever started building a car. Buy whatever you want but misrepresenting the facts and insulting others while looking ignorant is pretty lame
I really want to love this car.
As stated, the reliability (and spares availability) 5+ years from now will be key. A comparison with Toyota's Landcruiser would be interesting.
Reliability and modern BMW engines?
The new v6 diesel in the lc300 is turning out to be an oil burner.
The design looks like a cross between an old Defender and a 76 Series Toyota Land Cruiser, with a bit of G Wagon thrown in. Not sure that it’s fair to compare it with a Prado type Land Cruiser, which is the only one that Toyota sells in the UK now.
@@simonjones5614 I agree, the true comparison to this is a 70 series land cruiser which isnt available in europe and a g wagen which is in a different segment but relates to this vehicle a lot. The final one to throw in could be a jeep wrangler. I think comparing this to a new defender and an amarok misses the point.
The Land Cruiser would win. And then last another 100 years.
The Rover SDi comes to mind with dash. Binnacle in the centre is for production cost reduction between right and left hand drive. The SDi had square ish air vent in front of the passenger, that was the hole fir the left hand drive steering column. An ignition key! The BMW engines appear to have been de tuned.
Great review! I just saw two in person here in the states, no test drive yet. I think it will be a niche market in the States, smaller market after we get the new Landcruiser in 2024. (oh how I wish we could get the 70 series here...) but for now sticking with my 2018 4runner as a daily driver and semi-overlander, it just works on all facets (for me) and keeps on working.
When it was on its way out the Defender was about £25-£30k and it sold in big numbers for many reasons but one of those was that it came from a time when there was no real alternative so it built up a hugely loyal following who saw no reason to change. I seem remember that the Grenadier was meant to be much closer to that price point. So a lot has changed since they announced the project. I remember the budget figure for the project and the number was half the £1.5bn Harry quotes. From my standpoint it seems money is tighter if anything so how is that going to work? Harry seems to have pointed out quite clearly that this is not a Chelsea Tractor and that you'd assume, is where the money is. For Ineos's sake I hope that there are enough consumers out there who genuinely need this kind of vehicle to justify production. Worldwide that might well be true and no doubt the next version will come swiftly on its heels with a lot of improvements.
Even in it's run out year the old defender did not sell in big numbers. It was doing around 4-4.5k per quarter before the runout year when it increased to about 5.5k. New Defender was running at about 15k per quarter with heavily restricted component supply and reached 26k in a single qtr at the beginning of this year as supply issues started to ease. No-one was buying the old one because it wasn't that comfy compared to the competition and there were (and still are) plenty available 2nd hand if you want to scratch that itch. With a decent 2nd hand one you can easily add the home comforts, or enjoy a really basic car. The last of the old Defenders were also full of ECU's etc as you have to use them for emissions. The Grenadier will be no better or worse than the new Defender for the same reasons. IF the Grenadier touch screen fails you don't even have a speedo.
At £70k it needs to be a Chelsea tractor else the market is quite limited.
@@naturshoot8448 I did buy a 110 seven seater Defender towards the end of production as a second family car as it seemed lovely and so much less than anything else. I sold it for a little more than the new cost a few years later. I had no great urge to keep it. It was quite a demanding car to use and when I see them in town I wonder how the owners are coping with the reality. The Grenadier seemed like an opportunity to make the town friendly defender but seems to have missed that and added a few real issues of its own such as size, steering, awkward footwell etc etc. I'm sure that car could have been achieved but they clearly were building a LHD biased adventure wagon and the UK road market was not factored into their projections. If I had £70k to spend on this kind of thing I'd buy a super low miles old Defender and keep the change!
20,000 in its best year old Defender new Defender 100,000
pros: it exists, hard to roll. cons: everything else. lol
total agree Harry, my daily drivers VW Amarok it pretty much does everything you really need and much better build quality
Thanks for this video. I was actually considering this machine, until I saw this review. There are some definite pros, but the cons that kill it for me are the steering issues, the dead left foot, and most importantly, the noise. I’ve got a 2015 defender and had it sound proofed, which helped, but still loud.
It just goes to show how much evolution manufactures like Land-Rover, Jeep, and Mercedes Benz have accomplished with their rugged off-roaders. And that Ineos has possibly bitten off more than it can chew. For as long as this has been in the pipeline I’ve been suspicious that it is a folly, a vanity project, an “old Defender is better” cul-de-sac. I didn’t believe there was a market for a new rough and tough utilitarian 4x4 as a commercial or expedition vehicle like the old Defender. Commercial buyers needing true 4x4 capabilities have long been buying pickup trucks, from energy companies for working in the Scottish highlands to volunteer emergency services such as mountain rescue or land to sea rescue (I know of two organisations that have gone from very old Defender 110’s to crew cab Toyotas with custom hard tops specifically designed for their needs). So the Ineos seems to be filling a niche that doesn’t exist. I wish them well, but suspect that the challenge of delivering an all new 4x4 into an already cramped market, with build quality and design issues that are clear in this video, is a sign that things won’t go well for this. £70k and poor quality, dated looks and old fashioned engineering, all add up to a probable failure. If it was £30-40k at that level then maybe, but why buy an unproven devise over proven ones even for the kudos?!😢
Thanks Harry. I've been waiting for an independent proper review rather than the marketing BS I've been hearing over the last 2 years. Thank you
Just love your work
I am so glad that it is cr&p, was very peeved when ho took it to France to be built, now I am so glad he did. This is one vehicle that I am so glad is not beitidsh also the screws were probably glued on!!
A great review that's more than just a 1 hour press-drive. That steering damper placement is absolutely disgraceful, especially with the bolt head at the front. Even on the most mild tracks you'll absolutely destroy that in short order. How that made it to production is beyond me but it's evident where cost cutting measures were taken with the compromises that come with them.
Good review as always Harry. Shame to hear it misses in some areas that i hoped it wouldn't. I guess they had to make it sufficiently different in feel and use than a new defender to actually have a reason other than the retro design to make it. The awkward niggles like the footrest and ride will probably mean it wont be on my shortlist but like you said im very glad it exists. If it had been made in the UK possibly i could have overlooked a few more niggles 🤷
3.000 kilos at the kerb, that's insane. I get the impression that Ineos are going for the Tonka toy JCB ruggedness appeal, so they ought to strip a lot of the gadgetry to make the interior hose-downable and put the gadgets on the options list. Also chuck the BMW lump on the basic version and fit a Perkins 4-cyl tractor engine.
Some may remember the Austin Gypsy of the late 50s which was billed as a direct rival for the Land Rover of the day. It never sold in great numbers and was dropped after only a few years. I just hope the Grenadier doesn't go the same way.
As for the low-geared steering, my 1954 Wolseley 6/80 had 4 3/4 turns lock-to-lock and that was without power steering!
Was always a bit unsure about this car (I’ve owned 2 original 90’s) so was keen to watch an honest review (as opposed to the usual ‘invited’ launch days where it’s not impartial) and Harry has confirmed my thoughts. I think I’d rather put money to the new LR Defender. Thanks Harry!
You mean a 2019+ LR Defender? The most hideous vehicle ever produced?
I agree completely. I saw one in the flesh at Gordon Castle Highland Games a couple of weeks ago. I’ve been looking forward to this but was so underwhelmed. Centre console looks like an 80’s amstrad hifi, couldn’t see anything on the overhead panel and the leg room in the back was like a 911. Noisy, expensive and looks like the accountants have had too much involvement. Could have been epic but its a miss.
Could you otherwise have been in the market for one?
Quite possibly. A chance is on the horizon, but not for one of these!
@@nickdattner8680
change not chance - predictive text!