Let's Talk About Sister Krone
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- Опубліковано 17 жов 2024
- Someone had to talk about this so it may as well be me.
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Works Referenced:
Angela Davis; Women, Race, and Class
Austin Walker; www.giantbomb.com/articles/editorial-why-we-write-on-game-critique-influence-/1100-5215/
Blood for blood god, skull for throne. Khrone and khrone hates racist
Zeria
One question though, wouldnt Isabelle's femininity be in of itself kinda stereotypical seeing as how thats often how white women are portrayed anyways?
Also, why should sister krone have to be some kind of martyr? Its not like lacking in maternal instincts isnt a factor. Granted that would kinda feed into stereotypes but wouldnt the black women freeing the slaves and making a stand against the system be even more synonymous with blakck culture and thus would make the allusion too blatant (if we assume her design would still be intact)? Granted i can understand that that is at least positive, but that would defeat the purpose of her being a person who was fucked mentally by the system she's in and makes her a bit too close to a "good person". In a weird way the tragedy of her character would be less felt imo. But maybe thats just me. idk it just sounds like a way of saying that "black people in fiction cant be bad guys". Especially considering of the first two examples that you yourself brought up were a couple convicts. And yet they are still servicably written morally questionable while still being black. Granted the design makes things iffy, but changing it radically wouldnt make that much of a difference.
@@KaiserShounen yeah But why? She name after blood god. And oh by the way I'm not racist but khrone hates racist jokes
Ps blood for the blood god skulls for the skull throne
I would love to discuss why sister krones depiction while flawed and inforcing negative stereotypes is prejudice at worst not racist by definition since by definition racism must have intentional hatred involved
Phil is black but hes not monsterous or scary
I've always been put off by the anime lips thing. Like they seem to only exist in some manga/anime just to distinguish that the character is black.
Its like they either make black characters look like racist stereotypes or they look like a white/asian/ambiguousanimerace person dipped in coffee.
it's odd. they can make a character look Asian if they want too. go watch Detroit metal city you'll see what I'm talking about but they'd rather make them look white even when they're supposed to be japanese
which is fine, of course. they can make their characters look however they want them to look. I just don't get why they go out of their way to make sure we know that a character is black by giving them oversized noses and lips and usually a shitty personality
@@icyjiub2228 The thing that gets me most about the "ambiguous anime race dipped in coffee" thing is that even if the character is suppose to be black, a lot of anime fans will refuse to believe they are black.
To be honest i like how she looks
UHG thank you for this. I LOVE this anime. But every single time Krone was on screen or I saw her in a thumbnail I couldn’t help but feel this sickly feeling in the pit of my stomach. Not because of the character herself necessarily, but because of the constant invalidation of the inherent discomfort one feels when they and their entire group of existence is being portrayed negatively. Black women are ignored, belittled and generally seen as less than any other group all over the globe. Even darker skinned women are seen as less desirable where brown people are the norm. So I wasn’t SHOCKED when any time the discomfort with Sister Krone’s depiction was mentioned we were written off as just wanting to get offended. The fact that we were called out as overreacting and pushing a rhetoric that didn’t apply made me feel like an aggressor rather than a victim of racism is so common and so gross. Of course we don’t want to see this shit. Part of the reason I even picked up TPN was so I could prove myself wrong when faced with what I immediately interpreted as problematic. I didn’t WANT an issue. It destroys us when we are faced with them. But it EXISTS AND IT NEEDS TO BE DISCUSSED IN ORDER TO BE FIXED. But all those criticisms fell on the deaf and unwilling ears of literally anyone who wasn’t a black woman who watches the show. I see so many other black women in this comment section talking about how they felt uncomfortable yet still felt forced in to silence and honestly that just reflects how we are forced to navigate this world at this point. No one cares to listen to us so nothing gets fixed so we have to continue to see damaging products of ignorance and malice and have to continue silence.
Chris Leigh *ROUND OF FUCKING APPLAUSE TO YOU PREACH*
Glad you said this. I felt uncomfortable too but thought I was being picky. I was so excited to see a black woman in anime only for it to be a creepy caricature. I’m glad they at least made her pretty intelligent and perceptive of others, but the rest is hardly a compliment.
@@Window4503 this is exactly how I felt. I was excited to see a black character but something just never seemed right about her.
i agree
I see you and I respect you. I want to know what your opinion is on someone like Tiffany Haddish? I really want to know because I am not black or a women so I have no right to say that she is wrong or right but I feel she capitalizes perpetuates unjust and unfair stereotypes but again my opinion on the matter is irrelevant compared to yours. On the Sister Krone issue I really liked her character, I felt it provided comedic relief but for me it was because she was so weird and eccentric she reminded me of other goofy anime "bad guys" . That being said after this video and your post I can see how this would make others uncomfortable or worse. I am sorry for this and wish this was not the case and these issues do need to be confronted and said out loud. I support any calls for an apology and change. Your strength is as amazing.
Thank you. The sheer dishonesty shown by non blacks AND blacks when it comes to Sister Krone is...disappointing. You can like the show and you can like Krone, but let’s not be historically and intellectually dishonest and apologize for this.
What is historically and intellectually dishonest about sister krone? Her persona has nothing to do with being black but because of her past and her appearance is based on sterotypes but the sterotypes that are depicted aren't deceptive of reality.
@@lampad4549 " but the sterotypes that are depicted aren't deceptive of reality."
neither is the stereotypes in birth of a nation, but lynching blacks became more popular (key word populer) after that film. harmful depictions can be dangerous?? (go figure)
@@annb2586 the depiction of sterotypes in birth of a Nation were one dimensional and were simply there to promote propaganda and if the characters portrayed had more depth to them I would defend them the same cannot be said for sister krone she is multi layered and has depth to her and is arguably the most sympathetic character in the show.
If you admit that the sterotypes that are depicted are real why shouldn't they be portrayed. Negative sterotypes have a right to be portrayed as well as positive one regardless of people's sensitivity to the topic.
@@lampad4549 let me ask you a question; what stereotypes being depicted of sister krone are real?
Exactly. It's intellectually dishonest people who think you can't criticize works you enjoy and have to automatically accept all the negative aspects that come with it. This anime was great but Sister Krone's portrayal was a stain on it & we don't move forward by ignoring it.
I have absolutely no issue with animators giving black characters fuller lips and facial features that are accurate to real life, but damn, they really over exaggerated them to an uncomfortable degree here. This is like something you'd see in a minstrel show. Yikes.
Have you seen One Piece????
I kinda liked tbh it made her seem much more creepier
I love how this criticism is coming from a place of love for the work and medium. Sister Krone's design does invoke racist imagery, and that's not good, but people shouldn't dismiss the entirety of the work outright. And people ALSO shouldn't dismiss the criticism outright because they enjoy the work.
I was worried at first the video was going to do the former, but I'm glad to see it was in good-faith. I almost wonder if the title and first half set up viewers for the second by putting them on the defensive.
*Literally any other person depicted in Neverland:* 👁_👁
*Krone:* 👁👄👁
an unfortunate design in an otherwise incredible series
Nonbinary Sylveon
Wait until you hear about jojo, you'll flip your shit
Jojo have every goddam stereotypes to ever exist and is still one of the best if not THE BEST and most influential anime of all time
onto
What did you hate about it? If it's about the protagonist, then every part of jojo have a different protagonist with different personality, if it's about the power of Hamon then after part 2 Hamon don't exist anymore, part 1 of jojo isn't that good maybe even the worse in the series , many people drop jojo because of it so I can't really blame you, but it important to watch it, you'll come to appreciate it once you get further into the series, but if you can't enjoy jojo in general then I seriously feel bad for you, jojo is one of the best selling manga of all time, 1 in 5 people in Japan is a jojo fan, jojo is incredibly influential, persona and one piece wouldn't even exist if it wouldn't for jojo, so my point still stand (pun not intended) you're missing out
Huy Max ehh cant say its the best and most influential anime ever but to each it's own.
Lovley Bones
Ok let see here, it one of the best selling manga of all time selling over 100 million copies, 1 in 5 person is Japan is a jojo fan higher then the 1 in 7 one piece, speaking of one piece, jojo literally inspired oda to make one piece it also inspired persona one of the best anime game to ever exist, other anime also reference jojo, there is jojo reference in: no game no life, food war, monogatari, etc. jojo reference is literally the willhelm scream of anime, and over 30 year of it existent, it still kicking with it lated part getting the 2nd best manga of the year and it's lated anime adaptation getting best character design for 2018 and the most important is that jojo is the first and only anime to be exposed in the Louvre, people even say that the series is impossible to get an adaptation because it's just too beautiful, if you could name another 30 years series that literally inspired one of the big 3, the willhelm scream of anime, that still kicking and getting awards to this day, get exposed in the Louvre and the creator is a vampire then I don't believe you
UltimateGeek
Bro there is stereotypes in every part, part 1 got ton of English stereotypes, part 5 is literally Italian stereotypes the anime, Joseph jostar even said he hate the Japanese, and pucci the gay black priest is super stereotypical, serving under DIO and all, and in part 7 I'm guessing you are talking about the stand user for Hey ya, but that nothing because part 7 literally have slaves and the amount of Christian stereotypes in part 7 is beautiful, it literally have Jesus Christ as a character, the thing that balance out the setreotypes in jojo is the bizarreness
The moment I saw her design I was like "oh great..so that's what they went with?" I kinda get some of her features (seeing as how I relate to it with my lips and hair), but it was her loud and monsterous personality. Again, I guess I get it for the sake of the show, but it still rubbed me the wrong way for a while.
Her loud and montrous personality has nothing to do with being black, it had to do with how she grew she has backstory and everything.
@@cheasgsyu2465 ..Clearly you missed the point I was getting across. Her personality is a common stereotype that is pinned on black women, hence why it rubbed me the wrong way.
@@xarijackson her loud and montrous personality is a sterotype but it is one that has a semblance of truth to it to how humans may behave, sure it is exaggerated for effect but it is consistent with who she is. As for the loud and monstrous persona , that is troupe commonly found in fiction as well, its just that a black women is the one who embodies it this time. I would possibly agree with you if she didn't have an aspect of depth to her but she does. Being loud and monstrous is a characteristic that any of person can posses whether it be black or white. By critising, you're essentially saying that a black women shouldn't be portrayed this.
@@cheasgsyu2465 I am saying that her entire character seems more like a caricature of black women. Did we even watch the same video? Her entire character is a stereotype, I've seen plenty of anime that don't draw black women with giant lips, wide noses, and somewhat unruly kinky hair. Her personality is just the cherry on top for the perfect stereotype. And as I said, I get it for the sake of the show, but that doesn't mean it sat well with me.
@@xarijackson yes but I missed the part in the video that went into the depth of her character on why she is that way. I thought you didn't have an issue with her appearance as all of those features aren't without baseless foundation, black people do posses bigger lips, flater nose and curly hair, is it possible for them not to , sure but it is more likely for them to posses these features than other races and makes them more distinctive, that's why alot of characters share these features as well. So you're saying that black women shouldn't be portaryed this way because desire not to portray a common sterotype? It's okay to portray other races this way just not black people.
*watches a critical analysis video that's completely in good faith for the first time in a few months*
"Finally, some good fucking food."
Great video, Zeria. Really beautifully articulated, succinct and well-argued.
Nice video, it's weird how people seem to think that you can't criticise things you like.
Its more they just dont think its valid.
I never associated her brutal behavior to her race and saw it more as a disassociated character trade. But still, while I was watching the anime and she came with those weird facial expressions (and noticed her face design in general) I had this gut feeling that something was indeed wrong, and the old racists american drawings instantly came in my mind. While I don't think that Krone's personality is a problematic thing I can't deny that the design choices the artist made surely are.
Isabella Guimarães Agreed. The feeling I got, could not necessarily be voiced for me. It felt off but I couldn’t put my finger on it... so this video is actually sorta helpful.
I actually thought sister krone was a really well designed character. It really puts out there this idea that she is different. “A black sheep”. She’s not like ‘Mom’ in her behavior but she’s equally ruthless, cunning, and quite terrifying. But in her own way. It’s the realization though that this one prominent black character is able to embody so many different stereotypes that makes me actually start to stop and realize.
They could have explored how appearance and not ‘fitting the mold’ might lead to a sense loneliness. That might make it better for me. But that was never expressly conveyed and actually I just ended up filling in that blank myself...
@@MrNotkaren Yeah, I agree with you
This is made by Japanese. They don't see things in Black and White. They see it as Japanese vs Gaijin. If you complain about it like US, you get thrown in jail and deported.
@@skynsidhawaii First of all, I'm not from the US. But racism and colorism is a problem everywhere in the world. While I doubt Krone's facial expressions are purposefully racist, this is still an example of how japanese society might unconciously view black ppl or dark skinned ppl in general, as colorism is a huge problem in eastern countries even when it's not related to race (from what I know). And yes, I know their perspective on race are different, although there are accounts from black ppl facing racism there and double stardarts japanese might have treating white/asian tourists vs black tourists.
And if what you said is true, if in Japan someone can be deported for pointing out possible racism or giving their opinion on a fictional character, that is really unjust and xenophobic.
@@isaguima9731 if this is how they view black people in general then it is indeed racist 🤦🏾♀️
Thanks for addressing this, most people in the anime community tend to avoid talking about topics like this at all cost and lash out at anyone who "dares" to call it out...you know how it is, right?
Exacly!
I'm glad you touched other points about Sister Krone's depiction which I didn't know in depth. This was very informative, and as a writer I'll do my best to not fall in the same pit The Promised Neverland fell. I love the anime nevertheless.
I like Krone's design because she clearly looks like a black woman. Wide noses and fat lips are not ugly traits
@@alphasinner853 They may not be ugly traits but they reinforce a stereotype. That's not cool.
@@arimamary92 how is it a stereotype? These are normal traits of a black woman
@@alphasinner853 I'm sure the video can answer your question. And I don't think ALL black woman have those traits. It's not that simple.
@@arimamary92 my point is that those traits need to be represented more. Light skin biracial black women that have straighter noses and thinner lips are seen as more beautiful and important by society so i think that a unambiguously black woman being represented in a popular anime is a good thing
I feel like a major flaw was the character design. The unnerving movements and character were a good fit for what Krone was trying to add to the story. To show the despair the Mothers faced, and how it could drive some to near insanity. Although over exaggerated and drawn out, her characters IDEA was fine. The design was awful. I felt uncomfortable watching as it was just so... wrong. You hardly ever see black characters in anime, especially not main stream. So seeing a poc character so butchered was disappointing to say the least.
tbh, i loved her design. She was creepy when she was scaring the kids and she was beautiful in other places. Normally the psycho faces in anime are like that. Flared nose, bulging eyes, dilated iris and even puckered lips. Its just a way to show emotion. In other places, she has more normal proportions.
SAME
@@fla8623 yeah. notably for the lips, in a couple shots they were proportional? i keep hesitating at the lip criticism, mostly cause i think itd be just as disrespectful to imply that black people just. dont have lips. black people should be represented realistically, but there is a lot of shots it feels overtly racist. in a lot of shots i can totally see how they fall in with negative stereotypes. like the video said, racism is racism, intentional or not. from what ive heard, the artist has been actually really improving on how they draw poc characters too
i dont think her design should necessarily change, its just certain ways she was drawn
@@finnegan728 the mangaka took the criticism very well though. She drew other black characters in the later chapters in a neutral way. Ayshe and Andrew Ratri were the black characters but they had light hair instead of dark hair. They never made it to anime tho
As a feminine black woman, I truly appreciate this video.
Yes
Yeah that's true, wyd?
I do too!
Thank you. I loved this show until she appeared.
@@sofijamalinovic3219 Why are you judging them? It may not be fair to drop the show b/c of an unintentional racist caricature but you can't call someone a bad person for it.
Thank you for making this video!!
I love The Promised Neverland and Sister Krone is one of my favorite characters but JEEEEEZ was her design poorly done. I definitely don't think it came from a place of malice, but like you said, coming from a place of ignorance doesn't really make it any better.
also fuck that racist baby doll they added in the anime. taking away the internal monologues in an anime that's a mind game was bad enough, but taking it away and replacing it with more racism is so much fucking worse holy shit.
I'm confused most of these stereotypes have roots in reality so what's the problem with it..
GoldStarzzz
What about Don? Or the other black children, their character designs is definitely not racist, so the artist depiction of black peoples is definitely not racist if there also black people In the series that have normal character design, in my opinion, they exaggerate sister krone to make her scarier, which definitely work but it still partly shape by stereotypes of black people but stereotypes is also rooted in reality so as long as they doesn't exaggerated it too much and shove in my face, I'm totally fine with it but yes fuck the baby doll, burn it to the ground
@@sammysaito529 wats wrong with the baby doll?
@@sammysaito529 there are times where she possesses those sterotypical characteristics but they are pleasant to look at
@@sammysaito529 there's a difference between a character having a tan and a character being black. there's a lot of asian countries with darker skintones too, you know (you know Brock from pokemon? he was never meant to be seen as black). Don's hair for example doesn't look like hair a black boy would have without straightening it, especially when you compare it to Krone's hair that's clearly supposed to look natural. while there are a couple of characters that do look like they may be black characters as well it doesn't change the fact that the most prominent example in the series looks extremely racist. Also, if there are black characters in later arcs in the story that don't look racist in their depiction anymore, it's a possibility that the artist realized her mistakes through criticism and changed her ways by that point.
Great video. I love Krone and TPN, but calling this kind of stuff out is sorely lacking in the anime community, which is more often than not filled with the "just ignore it if you don't like it, what are you an SJW?" types. Thank you for making this.
Nah stop calling out shit thats why anime is still good they don't try to please everybody and be pc to not offend a group of people...
Yeah, I like the anime a lot but it does have the underlying racism that shouldn’t be ignored. Similar to how I like Harry Potter, but I do acknowledge the issues it has. You put it well!
@@mathieudallaire7316 you're privileged and it shows
@@mathieudallaire7316 in what way does using a better design make this show any worse? Are you really gonna say having an unintentionally racist design is actually better?
I love Krone as a character and I loved season 1 of this show so so much, but the design is still a problem. A better design for Krone would only serve to improve the show.
I’m not some overly PC person, I don’t get offended easily and I’m ok with the risky shit Anime pulls, but racism (even unintentional) is problematic.
*exactly*
This is one of your best videos to date. Such a spot on take on Sister Krone's depiction and good faith criticism as a whole. I'm so excited for your channel you're perspective is a real breath of fresh air in the stale anitube landscape
Dude, I was waiting for somebody to say it. I’m Singaporean-Chinese, and even I had to be taken aback. Wait. You’re telling me that Isabella gets to be the beautiful, normal looking one despite both of them having the same cold, calculative intelligence? 🤔 I know that when you bring a new character as a counterpart to a pre-existing one, you make their personalities contrast and clash. If Isabella is the calm, strategic, collected, silent type then Sister Krone has to be the manic, athletic, psychotic, loud one. But why does this personality have to manifest in such a caricature-esque manner when it doesn’t fit either the manga or anime’s style? The children who weren’t white got to look normal and didn’t have exaggerated lips. Just because Sister Krone had to look scary and was an adult didn’t mean they had to resort to racist stereotypes.
But you can’t bring up these sorts of things without being called paranoid or an SJW.
Also thank you for addressing that ‘being offended’ is not substitution for material action/critique. Thus, not falling into the trap of just pointing something as being ‘bad’ and ending the video there. Thank you.
True
As a black woman I appreciate this video. I honestly couldn’t watch the show bc of this.
One thing I always want non black creators to ask themselves when they’re going out of their way to make a black character is “why?”. Why did this character have to be black in your mind. If it’s to tell a story about a black person from real life then that makes sense.
But if it’s a servant, maid, violent, manly, a rapist, thief, or obsessive and unable to make complex decisions (here’s looking at you Walking Dead) then just don’t even make them black and rethink your conceptions of Black people.
Black women raising other people’s kids has been romanticized by White people for decades.
You can make those types of characters with any skin collor.
There's a difference between a black character being a bad person, and a black character's badness being that of minstrels, nannies, and other harmful, racist stereotypes. Those stereotypes existed to convey and disseminate racist views of these people, and they serve to do the same today if they go unchallenged.
@@principleshipcoleoid8095 yeah you can, but when the vast majority of characters played by black people are negative and the media cknstantly shows black people in relation to crimes on the news you should be wary of not adding to the stereotypes
You go sister !!
You seem to have fixated on the part of my comment where I mentioned stereotypes exist, as opposed to the entire rest of it where I contextualize why the presence of those stereotypes is harmful. I recommend reading the rest of my comment.
Actually, scratch that, please *don't* read the rest of it, as your doing so will no doubt elicit an even more asinine second response from you.
oh my goddd the racism was so obvs but literally no one was talking abt it so i thought i was crazy... thank u for speaking up abt this
tisumi its not racist
i mean im pretty sure the author didnt realise it back then, it was an honest mistake rly.
@@resarious6225 it wasn't a mistake the mangaka was taught like that japan has a bunch of sterotypes about black people but honestly there a country separate from the world so they don't know how it could be offensive
@@upon1326 so... It wasn't a mistake but it was a poor judgement made on half complete information... Otherwise known as a mistake...
this is a great video and im glad im here before any troll comments. i cant say how tired i get when people try to write things like this off with "this wasnt a problem until you made it a problem" or when people try to dismiss certain people by saying "white people getting offended for the sake of black people" (im not commenting on your race btw just parroting things ive seen).
i hope we get more nuanced criticism like this that look through different theories and lens. it makes for a much more interesting discussion on art as a whole imo.
I'm tired of people not understanding that racism by definition has to include intentional hatred of a race it's not hard to understand sister krone is a fucked up character design but she isn't racist because the mangaka didn't have negative intent is her design reinforcing negative racial stereotypes yes but racist by definition is not the right word
No one said she was a racist character. They just said that her character design was racist 🙄
@@jacobhines5583 what definition are you using cause the definition i know doesn't outline intentional hatred as a necessity.
Im black & i think of it this way 1st and formost she is a foil to Isabella. Physically mentally and developmentally she is the opposite of mother. Media has to be looked at in context and in the context of the story mother's foil needed to be a large hulking childish woman lacking is any subtlety,as a contrast to mother. The fact that she was black doesn't change the intent or meaning of the character. Racism-prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior. I don't believe krones character is representitive of that I'm sorry i just don't think the magaka made her to show the superiority of another race
@@jacobhines5583 okay i understand how you came to that conclusion and why you feel that way. while i agree that shes supposed to be a foil to isabella i still find that its led to a racist character design even tho i think her character is a good one.
i think there are certainly different forms racism can take from being out right malicious to coming from a place of ignorance, to just being unconscious since i think people can be racist without meaning to be.
so i think krone embodies an anti-black racist stereotype of black women even tho the mangaka may not have meant any malicious intent or harm. i think simply calling the design "fucked up" without going into why doesnt do anything to furthur the conversation. it still relies on heavily discriminatory imagery in its creation directly related ro race so i dont think its unfounded to call it racist.
(also im black as well)
I don’t feel like Krone lacks femininity. She only really seems like it when with the main cast. But like Isabella she can act motherly towards the other children when she needs to
Star Flame she's like not really a mother, like an aunt
Same, I think she was beautiful. Yeah she didn’t act the exact same as Isabelle but that’s cas she not her and everyone acts differently but the way she handled the kids when she wasn’t chasing them obviously was very heartwarming ngl
r/woooosh
@@ichiass9823 what
That's the mammy trope. The only feminine thing about bw is being motherly/ a servant.
Positive or neutral depictions of black characters in anime is so scant that it hurts when a popular show decides to perpetuate harmful racist stereotypes through its black character.
Black woman as faithful servants and mammies is all to common in western media and as a result we see it in global media as well. Sister Krone isn’t all bad but the fact that she’s a crazed, violent, masculine, servant still remains.
We see black people as servants in anime like Kill la Kill (bonus points for going crazy after the loss of their “massa”), Mr.Popo (Black coded servant),The Count of Monte Cristo (dies for master), and Hunter X Hunter.
Blacks/brown characters as animalistic /wild can be seen in Cowboy Bebop with Ed and Su from Love Hina, Aisha from Outlaw Star, ect.
She has "sister" position. Because they didn't have "mom" position, or hadn't been good enough YET. Sometimes I think that people can look into things too much. Maybe, I just lack USA racist media context.
beriigirl
There is also Pucci which is a goddam gay black priest and is a servant to DIO, not only did he have the black stereotypes but he also have the Christian stereotypes but like literally no one care, probably because every single jojo character is exaggerated and like every character is racist in one way or another like the main character in part 2 hate Japanese people, plus jojo is just too wild to people to even care about stuff like that
@@sammysaito529 Not every character in Jojo's is racist, what are you on about
what was in hunter x hunter?
@@robyn6879 I think they are talking about Canary
I dont think it was intentional to be honest, but yes, it did make me a little uncomfortable.
Why ? She is villain and she's black so what.
@@cheasgsyu2465 she really wasn't a villien she was born in a system das is always aganst people ether you die or become a mother and she Tried to help them escape even tho she wanted to be the best mum
That's the thing with the internalised racism and racist stereotypes non-black people have towards black people. It is usually never intentional, but that doesn't mean it isn't harmful. If not more harmful, because people aren't aware that their actions are wrong. Hence, why I'm glad this person made this video. We NEED to call this stuff out when we see it.
it was definitely intentional, sister krone was one thing, but they even named the only little black girl "jemima"
@@laylah7806 i never heard such a bad fucking take before. its fine to be uncomfortable by these things. you can not watch an anime due to a character or character design and thats fine. but sister krone isnt racist. nor was it intentionally racist if it is racist which it isnt. the fact that a masculine black woman with bigger than average lips and curly hair which is not a horrible inaccurate depiction of a black woman seen as racist is fucking stupid. a black woman with masculine features and big lips can exist. its not like these people dont exist, not every female has to be so feminine and beautiful the way you want it to. because stocky people do actually exist, and i love her character design. and no im not wHitE nOnBlAcK i just like sister krone and the fact that the first thing people saw about her was how she "looked like an animal" is sad. the entire show is supposed to be terrifying, and exaggerated. how can you criticize a show for looking disturbing when thats the point? comparing sister krone to a ACTUAL racist charicature is so stupid. this reminds me of when a black person did a self portrait and everyone called them racist because the lips were big. yes. those people exist. not every one is beautiful. and i hate the notion people think having masculine traits makes you less motherly and less beautiful because that isnt the case. you can still be masculine, black, and beautiful racism involves context, involves intention, and tone. if i were to say "oh, she's black!" and "oh... she's black?" there are different tones to express different things. you can be offended but sister krone is clearly not racist but can make people uncomfortable. but if not for the fact they even knew about how these charicatures looked like and saw sister krone they would see no issue.
The adaptation also botched her character quite a lot. I felt she was more sympathetic and grounded in the manga. The distasteful scene where she's yelling and abusing a doll was originally a simple internal monologue. I also remember every character having more exaggerated expressions in the manga? That's not to excuse the fact that Krone still resembles a racial stereotype, the anime is just not as good as the manga overall and seems to amplify all its problems. My suggestion is, if you enjoy the anime but Krone's portrayal makes you a lil' too uncomfortable, read the manga, Krone is at least more likable there.
On the other hand, her facial expressions are even more ridiculous in the manga…
idk, both the anime and the manga give something to enjoy
....I mean, if we're going to address the way Krone is drawn and how it matches racially stereotypical depictions of black women, then the manga is far worse in that regard. The anime even tries to tone down her appearence in places to not make her look as monstrous as the manga did.
Im kinda mad that shes the only black person we see in the show and she dies so quickly.
@@really1494What about Phil? And Don?
Thank you for talking about this! I love this show to death, but Krone's character design and face contortions often left a bad taste in my mouth. If you're scrolling through the comment section....... good luck! Don't forget the good comments when the bad ones seem overwhelming!
The first minute had me hooked asf. I’m not gonna lie, coming from a black girl, I do kinda appreciate the accuracy of how sister Krone looks, but they really did kinda go all out.
Idk about if she looks accurate, for every race there's ugly and beautiful people (exterior).
@@rashta5817 Yeah I think young me worded this wrong. She is somewhat accurate. But she is still exaggerated to the point where she looks like a racial caricature
@@brooke.t.g.r5646 yeah a tragedy design for an amazing show. I personally believe krone looks like this because the author wants to emphasize the creepiness of hers.
@@rashta5817 I definitely feel like that’s plausible, but the execution was kinda bad😓
To me the issue is that they made those features look evil and unattractive. They could've been beautiful and feminine but Noo. Let's make it look extra evil and ugly.
I was hoping her design was an intentional commentary on the dehumanization oppression has on victims and reveal it isn't her appearance but she perceives it as so due to upbringing. Any who saw it as fine would also need to reassess their upbringing.
But nope. The pieces were right there yet none saw them and such blindness is kinda a core problem. Anyways nice vid.
What gets me is her childhood design was fine. Yeah, maybe shrink the lips down a little, but the biggest thing was her eyes I feel like. Isabella had points where her pupils were big and round and others where they were narrow and small. Sister Krone's were constantly small and it made her scary in general. Meanwhile, her eyes as a child were nice to look at. Why should she be more unhinged than Isabella? And why doesn't she have a full name... everyone calls her Sister? That's another stereotype.
@@Adrienaline-Rushed-Art why shrink the lips? they look natural
@@jesuscarter4048 I agree but it depends on the frame, and sometimes the way the lips are drawn shows an angle of exaggeration that seems a bit disrespectful
@@Adrienaline-Rushed-Art I felt like the reason why Isabella and Krone were so different was to show not everyone dealt with the stress and trauma from the farms the same way, like Isabella was able to keep her sanity together while Krone had a harder time and her eyes showed that. In the scene where they show her growing up to become a mom/sister you can see her pupils/irises get smaller(to show her deteriorating sanity). In some scenes when she was an adult you can see her pupils get bigger when she was in a calmer state of mind. This may not be true but this is just how I interpreted it. Also no one has a full name, sister is just a rank/title she has so they call her Sister Krone. (in this universe some of the ranks are Sister, Mother, and Grandma.)
Edit: Also i think she was depicted that way because we are mostly seeing this from a child's point of view(Emma and Norman's) so I think the reason why she looks a bit scarier than Isabella was because the kids grew up with Isabella as their mom and even though they didn't take away a lot of the motherly feeling, she became more eerie looking, while after Emma and Norman found out about Connie, Krone came in and they didn't get a chance to bond with her and see her like an older sister, so they saw her more as someone who they should fear and everything was more exaggerated. If you look at the interactions she has with the other kids they seem to be fine with her while Emma and Norman aren't. (sorry if i didn't explain my interpretations too well I just wanted to get these out)
@@Adrienaline-Rushed-Art because isabella and krone are different characters, and to make her more disturbing as this is a HORROR show, they have to make her more unhinged and distorted for the sake of making you feel disturbed. thats the point. and really? stereo type to call sister krone with sister? isabella doesnt have a full name either as well. isabella and krone are juxtapositions and isnt due to stereo types but for narrative. she is supposed to be scary so she can be depicted as a threat. isabella isnt known for this, she uses cunning and wit, with a condescending attitude but sister krone is more up front, and a different character in general. why have another isabella? and the eye thing? yeah kids tend to look cuter when they are younger as this is due to their head and body ratio. big eyes make things cuter. thats why she is depicted with big eyes as a child, because she is one. same thing with other young children in the show.
I wish more people could view critisism in general trough a similar lens. All too often I see people who seem to believe that any sort of critisism towards their fav show/media is basically pure hatered towards the show as a whole, when it's really just a matter of pointing out a flaw or two that, if they had been improved upon or prevented, could have made the whole even better. Heck, I can find a bunch of faults in my absolute favourite pieces of media of all time, and I'd gladly criticise them for those faults. Doesn't stop them from being my all-time favs, just means they could technically still have been even better and more enjoyable if those faults didn't exist. So yeah. Anyhow, great video, and I agree completely with the points being made here. ;D
A really good analysis. I remember seeing a video similar to this one calling out her character is racist only for many commenters to say “no she’s not!”
Perhaps once we start embracing black identities in anime (which is starting to gradually happen from what i’ve seen, although this is an extreme gradual) people will be able to see just how exaggerated and racist her design and characterization ends up being.
Keep rockin’.
Krone always bug when she first appears in the Manga, I glad the Anime tone her faces down to make her more passable then again they give her an awful doll and make her mentally ill (one step forward two steps back). I remember when I first saw Krone, I was so disappeared with The Promised Neverland, she grew on me but the design needed to go. Anyway, glad Vincent, Pepe (why did they call him that? That name remind me of that awful Bleach character) and Jemima. Like there designs, wish they do more with them
Could it be that her portrayal was intentional but not well handled or written? Because reading the manga and seeing other black characters and a variety of social issues that you mention in the video just feels weird to me the juxtaposition between her in the farm and the rest outside, but i could be wrong.
Yeah, I think that was the case. I think she was supposed to like... seem creepy and twisted, but they used racist imagery and stereotypes to make that happen. If you read the chapters regarding her pasts, she looks normal. Pretty, even. I think the implication was that becoming a Mama turned her into this ugly person and tried to portray that in her appearance, too. They just did it the wrong way.
@@lyunahal I think the way they did was perfect because it perfectly brought out her distorted mind , when she looks beautiful she possesses those same features so why don't critisize those as well.
Sister Krone was so misunderstood, it’s crazy. She was forced to do this to live. Throughout her traumatizing childhood, and trained was so horrible.. it made me sick to my stomach in the scene where she died. She and Isabella are my favorite villains.
Sister Krone deserved better and I thought it was really sad that her character wasn't handled with a little more care and critical thought. Still loved her tho! I also think that it's VERY important to question the things you like! Never stand still and keep your eyes and mind open. :) Great video!
Her character is amazing and is probably the best in the manga, I don't understand why it's a problem, she is eccentric and her design portrays that.
brilliant!! Thank you! I've had such a hard time putting my own issues with sister Krone into words, while I still love The Promised Neverland.
I think it's interesting to compare Krone in the manga with Krone in the anime because there are some things that the manga did better, and some that it did way worse.
I think the anime softened up Krone's features, and while this didn't take away the general racism of the design's origins overall... it did humanize Krone more. it's not inconceivable to think of a real black woman happening to have her combination of physical traits... it's just the intentional combination of them in a fictional story that makes the whole thing uncomfortable. however, this does take the edge off of the horror element of Krone, for better or for worse. the manga contorted her face into a much more horrifying and racist image much more often.
her psychology also differs from manga to anime, and in this aspect I think I actually like the manga's version better. because while yes, Krone is physically imposing in the manga, she does have a much more cerebral element to her. I think this is due to the fact that they cut the internal thoughts of all of the characters out of the anime entirely, which was a really odd choice all the way around. in the anime, you only ever know what a character is thinking if they say it out loud, and Krone occupies a weird space in which she doesn't have anyone else to conspire with like the kids do, but her thoughts aren't supposed to be a mystery to us like Isabella's are. I think they gave her the baby doll to remedy this issue... but the issue wouldn't be an issue if they had just given voiceover thoughts to the characters throughout the anime. when you combine all of that with the energetic and boisterous way that they animated Krone, it makes her seem almost bumbling. like, when something isn't going her way, in the anime she practically throws a tantrum about it... it's not subtle at all. in the manga, when she's backed into a corner, she starts scheming and you naturally take her seriously. the manga gives you a much greater sense that Krone is not only a wild card in this cat and mouse game between Isabella and the kids, but a real contender with her own agenda to fulfill. she's on her own side, working for her own gain, and she seems like she stands a chance. which only makes it more shocking when she gets killed anyway, in spite of how effective she appears to be.
overall, I'm glad that The Promised Neverland exists... but I think that if Krone is anything, she should be a teaching moment for us all. this is how you can create a compelling, multi-faceted character, and still tarnish them with insensitivity. the work is obviously still creating a strong positive impression in spite of this insensitivity, though some have definitely decided against getting into it specifically due to Krone's depiction... but it's almost not even about that. enjoying The Promised Neverland has become a balancing act. you don't want to get too defensive of it and silence anyone with a legitimate grievance, but you also don't want to let one aspect of the work ruin it entirely. or maybe you do! it would be valid to be unable to look past this. I just know that The Promised Neverland has limited its own appeal to a lot of people, and those people deserve to enjoy a good story, same as the rest of us.
I wondered when you were gonna tackle this, and you didn't fail to. I… don't really have much to add, what you say is sadly hard to deny. I could say that Krone's base design isn't overly unrealistic or that her outfit is simply the same as Izabella's, but that doesn't really change the issue, does it…
Regarding the doll though, I think it's meant to symbolize her loss of innocence within the system more than any kind of "mental illness". She used to adore and take care of it, but now she hurts it instead. It's another representation of the system she lives in, in a way.
Though her talking to it out loud in a goofy way is also an unfortunate effect of the anime's choice to remove all inner monologues, which didn't always work to its benefit…
I think the only scenes where she was illustrated in a not-so stereotypical way was when she had a flashback of her life becoming a Mother, she looked determined yet normal
The fact that there is a black character in there is a pretty big step though for anime, even the kids have different skin tones. They're getting there.
all of there characters look different, which i love
Not really. Multiple anime’s in the best had tons of black characters which most looked like her and were shown in a racist and negative light.
@@theflowerabovethestars4741 but the promised neverland is more recent than those you're talking about.
But then we have bleach at least they have decent black women and men even in Naruto
Oh wow yes I should thank massa for the outrageously stereotypical mammy figure bc ✨representation✨🙏 I'd rather have no representation in anime than racist ones.
Couldn't have said it better. I definitely noticed this throughout the show, like when Isabella referred to Krone as a "tomboy". That really got to me because she never struck me as tomboyish at all. I still love her as a character, but it's such a shame she had to be rooted with so much anti-blackness.
but, she is feminine, motherly and she is beautiful, she is also loud and scary, but her personality drives on the feeling that she wants to escape and not die since she was a child, she's rly smart, strong, fast and so is isabella, the mothers are all very strong, they were trainned like that, and Krone was a very loving character I came to hate and love various times, it's rly nice, I cried when she died, all the people there have an unfair life, and you have to be the smartest the strongest and the best one just to survive that world, personaly I never seen her as a racist character, honestly she has the lips, the hair and the nose that is the stupid stereotype and sure you can point out that, but you can't point out her personality, the scary facial expressions even, it's her trying to be scary, she wanted to take isabella's place and outsmart her and she was desperate, everyone would be like her regarles the race, your only argumment is the apperance not the personality
agreed
As a black woman I didn't take offense to the design of her character. It is what it is and stressing over something stupid as race when it's been happening forever, it's so talked about and pointless. Moving on.
THANK YOU so much for this video. I've been put off by Krone's portrayal since the beginning of the anime with her intro but I haven't been able to exactly articulate my reasoning to friends that respond with confusion, and you put this whole problem into words. It's so so important to bring this up,and the way you did where it's not taking an extreme end of the spectrum (like "This is the worst thing ever and we need to boycott this anime" and "OMG people freaking out over dumb shit again " being both awful awful takes that actually fail to explain anything) and laying out the situation instead is SO relieving to see.
I’m not so sure I agree, but this is just a personal opinion. I can see from your perspective, but it’s just not mine.
I loved Krone’s character, and personally, I loved her design. It marked her as her. I didn’t see some “monstrous buff black woman with terribly huge lips and nose”. Considering the black characters introduced later in the manga and how they are designed compared to her, they don’t follow the same design at all. Why? Because she’s Krone, not just a “black person”.
Her personality is of her upbringing, and ultimately her desire to live and survive. To thrive as best as she can and live happily with the world that’s dealt to her. If you read the manga, you’ll learn even more as to why this would be the case.
I never found her uncomfortable due to her design or anything of the sort. I found her uncomfortable when the show wanted her to be, when she looked to do anything to she needed to do. When her mentality shined through at moments, showing that it wasn’t very rational unless it involved her wellbeing only.
Again, this is just my opinion and I can see and understand yours.
I actually have a friend who looks just like her, and she’s such an amazing person. It sucks to see that basically the way my friend looks is some big stereotype to some people, and that if used is racist.
I wasn't sure how to put my thoughts into words, but yes, thank you, cause this is it.
Thanks! You also put my thoughts into writing! 💕 I love Krone and I love this show 💕
I didn't feel offended by her design (but I'm not black) but I can definitely understand the racist undertone if her design. I definitely noticed it myself while watching that there were problematic features.
As a black woman, i didn’t really see an issue either. I just thought she had a mental illness or something which made her act the way she did. Overall i kinda like her character arc. 🤷♀️
@@Jesus.H.Christ. The only thing I could see as a legit criticism is the lips and nose are mabye a bit exageratted but beyond that people attacking it for her "being a subservient slave" is stupid because they are all literally slaves and it just so happens mamas wear maid outfits. They also seem to forget even being considered to be a mama is something you can only do if you are literally the smartest girl in your class. Sister krone is smart, athetlic, and is traumatized from being raised as food and forced into continuing that horrible cycle. Thus her mental illness. I think shes a well thought out character and most racism people are extrapolating from her character is a stretch.
@@nullakjg767 thank you someone who makes fucking sense but I disagree with her facial features it's ok.
I personally think Krone was just written to be a foil to Isabella’s tactics. Her original character design was white, and I think they just changed it up for diversity’s sake (kinda like how the kids are diverse).
But I see where you’re coming from.
...they also named the little black girl “Jemima.”
.....I change my previous thought about the creators not meaning to be racist. They probably meant that shit.🤣😬
@@sariyeah ...?
I was ready to just role my eyes and be annoyed by this video. But I actually agree with almost everything you said. I was just assuming that because Krone was a stereotype that it would be bad to still like the show.
But you saying that it's okay to criticize things you still like really made me think of other shows I really love that have done stuff that weren't very good. And were possibly offensive or something.
But that still doesn't mean I have to just cancel the show. I'm glad I found your video, because you were very levelheaded and still liked the show but weren't afraid to criticize things that were wrong about it.
people seems to take criticism of one aspect of a show as meaning 'you hate it!!11' and that confuse me. please, if we can't criticize something we like then i would hate 99,9% things i'm into
Thank you for doing a well-rounded video on this that makes good points.
I wish movies and shows in general could stop using race or sexuality as character traits.
Like if a person is black, thats the movie. Its about being black and racism and yeah. They cant just have a black character living their god damn life like everybody else
Or a gay love movie, its ALWAYS about how their families are unaccepting or how bad society is. Cant you just make a basic shitty rom-com but with gay people?
They're not personality traits so stop treating them like it.
I wish people in real life would stop using race or sexuality as character traits. That'd be even better
@@jakkex people in real life have every right to center their interests and what they talk about around their identities, because how they are treated by society revolves around those identities. a cishet white person most likely wouldnt understand such identities being a central part of their personality and interactions because their identities are completely normalized and treated as the default; the way society views and treats them has nothing to do with those characteristics. however, a POC/LGBTQ+ person spends their life being treated differently, usually negatively, due to these characteristics which they really have no control over. a big part of liberation and self affirmation is coming to terms with how your identities directly affect every aspect of your life. to stop trying to assimilate and to recognize the effect your identities have is integral in accepting and being confident in yourself, and thus people in marginalized communities often begin to focus more on those aspects of themselves. in summation, people can center their personalities around the communities they belong to because the mere fact that they belong to those communities affects many, or in some cases, every, aspect of their lives and dictates how they are treated.
I'm not saying that people don't have the right to base their identity on whatever they want, I'm saying that I wish they didn't.
I'm not saying that you can't have your race, ethnicity etc. be a part of your identity, I'm saying you shouldn't have your identity completely fixated on those factors.
That makes people incredibly two-dimensional and boring.
I think they should but not in a bad way such things add depth to a character
the thing is the author wanted diversity for the sake of showing everybody is enslaved and there is no one out there that is free. thats why there are so many varying races with the kids. it has a subtle implication that every human is enslaved for cattle and krone being black ISNT integral to the story but it does tell a bit about it. and if being black doesnt need to serve a contribution to the plot why are people mad about them not being included? why do they have to be black? representation? why make a rom com about gay people? your appealing to a minority when most people are in the majority so naturally they want to go with a safer route. why would a straight man watch a shitty rom com about gay people when there is an equally shitty one but straight? the reason they make being black or gay relevant to the plot is because then both majority and minorities can watch and enjoy it. because from a business perspective its the smartest choice. if i just made the characters gay for no reason but for them to be gay it feels fake and non genuine because it feels like they did it for the sake of appealing a minority group rather than to actually build on the fact they are gay.
I believe there was an interview where Posuka and Shirai said their design of Krone had many versions, including some where she isn’t black
Interesting
@@ZeriaYT yeah as a black man I see nothing wrong with her design. And there many version of her were see is not depicted as black, she not even ducking close to a racist stereotype or caricature. While your video is well constructed , I feel like your overreacting to an issue that's not problem to begin with. Because there's black folks like my self who don't find her offensive.
Tony Nola but there are other black folks that do take offence. I think this was an important discussion to have. You clearly stated that your a black man so this doesn’t really affect you. It affects black women. I think you should spend more time listening to what black women have to say than speaking over them. Because as the gentlemen clearly states her caricature is racial insensitive. Whilst that doesn’t mean the anime is bad or racist in general. It still has some racist connotations, that black women till this day still experience.
You know, I don't think this was the creator's intention, I honestly think her design was to emphasize her creepiness, she was made to flip the tables on the children, being more aggresive than Isabella, giving them a harder time.
I don't think the author is racist because there are also black children included and they certainly aren't ugly, I think the author made Kurone ugly on purpose just to creep out the readers.
They aren't black, lol. They are dark skinned asians you know that right?? Like Indians? Or dark skin Japanese? They have straight hair
What about how they made a whole theme for Sister Kurone? Only Emma and her have themes
AlternateChavvy girl jemima is literally black she’s not indian or japanese lmao, she afro type hair...
Wow 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾. I just APPLAUD you for being this up, when virtually, no one else has. Your COMPLETE lack of ignorance in this subject is just so respectful in a real way ✊🏾.
In the manga her face changes more, there is very little of her with the doll, and in the season 2 her actions are much more important because of the pen she gave to Norman. She is seen as very strong and that was because the kids needed to face someone who physically intimidated them. Which saddens me thinking of the stereotypes. The doll was added to make you scared and to add some inner dialogue on the outside that the manga specialized in. The anime's reliance on making you feel scared or intimidated makes me slightly disappointed.
Krone however is constantly put under by the system, Isabella's connections to grandma gave her the advantage and even though she could've been a great mother she was taken advantage of by the system. She still pulled through and gave the pen to the kids being really important.
Her smile in my opinion isn't racist, her design is. As we are first introduced to her we assume she is crazy, evil and greedy. But later we realize that she's crazy from her environment, greedy because no one ever gives her anything, and cares deeply for the kids. And villains do a creepy smile all the time but the exception is that they don't have big lips just big smiles.
THANK YOU THANK YOU for finally articulating it! people get so fucking mad if you bring up the issues w sister krone in the anime chat, but I’m just gonna send them this link now
She’s just so gorgeous and she’s my favorite character.. and she’s just so cool, I’m so sad she died
When I first saw Sister Krone among the character designs I went "oh no is this racist this feels racist..." and I googled her and then I saw what she looked like in the manga and I went "oh NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!" I'm glad someone decided to talk about it. It really is like the one thing that bothered me while I was watching the show.
This was a pure pleasure to listen to. Your points are all valid, well thought out, and right on the money. It's clear you have watched the anime with the eyes of someone who loves anime, and who isn't afraid to investigate what you love when you see something problematic in it. You also get points for taking on the very real challenge of people who will object to your review for all the reasons you give here. Bravo!
Thank you for putting the feelings I had about Sister Krone into words. I had put off the series because seeing such a poorly designed black woman in a popular show was disheartening, but I've come to realize that this was unintentional. Though still hurtful nonetheless, I love Neverland for everything it got right.
Not watching a series just because of a poorly designed character is honestly pretty childish.
@@jakkex If you are not black you wouldn't understand it. We barely get black characters as it is in anime and the one we got in this awesome show was a walking stereotype in her looks. It is disappointing because I LOVE how she is written. People are watching this series that may have never seen a black women and this is what they see? It's just not a very good feeling. So I understand why the poster may have stayed away.
@@candicefarrington2208 I doubt that anyone who watched this show has never seen a black person in their entire lives.
@@jakkex From how she is drawn it seems like it. Seems like all they have seen is a stereotype of a black women and ran with it. Like I said I love how she is written. She is my favorite. She a beast. It's just she can be all of that and look more like the ethnicity she is supposed to resemble. To have a natural hair black person in an anime itself is lovely in it own. I just wish she was better drawn.
@@candicefarrington2208 I was talking about the viewers, not the designers of her character. But it's nice to hear that you're able to look past her design and appreciate the good writing.
Really good analysis. You've earned a new subscriber today.
I'm definitely in the minority, but I didn't see the racism, and well... I enjoyed Krone a LOT. Her character is creepy and scary. Her arc, twists, turns, & amazing role in the plot is amazing. The extremes she provides made The Promised Neverland great for me. Yes, Krone is controversial, but I enjoyed it!
Me too I am shocked that there was even racism. I didn't know. I guess I need to learn more. My husband and I both loved Sister Krone, we loved every bit of creepiness and liveliness she had.
I honestly really liked her design and the expressions. She really stands out personality wise and she was always such a joy to watch. I'm now currently reading the manga and now I love her more. I don't like to look at race when judging a character, and I really wish people wouldn't do that. They're more then just race. I understand her design is a bit controversial, but she's much more then a stereotype. I look as them as real people with personality's then just fictional beings. Krone deserves better and more love from the fanbase :(
Well the fact that people didn't notice the racism might be a good sign that stereotypes are disappearing
@@sunnysunshine8897 But it's hurtful to black women (like myself), so why don't people just stop associating uglyness, loudness, and masculinity with us in these shows/ movies? Why not make her creepy and terrifying without adding in the racial stereotyping? The issue is that there are more black female characters who are depicted in masculine, angry, crazy, ugly, and loud, then there are that are depicted in a soft feminine way, like all the European and Japanese women. It's not fair to us, the black girls who have to put up with it. It's so easy to say you don't see the racism in this, when it doesn't directly affect you, and when the joke isn't about people who look like you. People DID notice the racism, it was just mostly black women, since the joke was on us.
@@hannahwatkins7992 I know :( I'm a black woman too and stuff like this does bother me a lot. Though I think times are slowly changing, so I'm hopeful that we see less depictions of us like this in the future.
Needed this. I'm reading the manga now after watching season 1 and I found the validation to my feelings that I was looking for.
It's just so heavy handed. Like the eyes, the lips, the running. It's insane that the designers were like "Yep, this is it."
Thanks for taking a measured approach to this, it's refreshing seeing someone take a more analytical approach opposed to an accusatory one that ends up being fairly surface level.
I went into The Promied Neverland a few weeks ago completely blind, and was so shocked and terrified the entire way. It's an intense anime, and I was actually SO excited when Sister Krone was first introduced. And by first introduced I mean the first few seconds we saw her, bc I thought it was cool to see some melanin in a mainstream anime, especially in the form of a black lady with natural hair....
only to IMMEDIATELY be let down within that same introduction when I realized she was a caricature. I was further let down when I saw how often they used her (a tall, heavyset black woman) as a jumpscare, a scare tactic, they gave her grotesque facial proportions and expressions and played her features to be intimidating, and BY GOD I thought we were done with the big black anime lips 😔
Parts of Sister Krone made sense, I understand her insanity and the unease around her comes with the trauma that young girls in this show go through striving to survive by becoming house mothers. I understand that her being loud and boisterous may have been her way of trying to take over Isabella. I also understand that different races have different features and this may have been someone's best attempt at black features. But you CAN'T deny the implications of it all. This went through several people, there are TEAMS behind anime, and yet she made it through with all of these upsetting traits that push the same racist narrative that people have been fighting for centuries. And you CAN show a mentally ill poc without it turning into the "crazy black lady" stereotype with the racist design to match, it's just that they missed the mark with her. I feel they did her the most justice when they show flashbacks of her as a child, but we saw it so briefly as it was only when her life flashed before her eyes as she was dying that we got to see it.
They have other poc characters (Don being one of the main 5 kids and being dark skinned, for example) and they did just fine with them, but Sister Krone was a major hiccup. I do believe the show became aware of this and wants to do better. The Promised Neverland is an amazing piece of media, but nothing is perfect
It must've took you a long time to form a solid argument/ critique for Krones character. You took all the thoughts inside of my head lmao
Honestly I haven‘t been able to continue this series because of this. I tried, I really did. But I got simply too fed up with watching smth that made me feel so disgusted.
i love her design i dont think its racist, majority of the ppl overalll i think, liked krone how she is
That’s your opinion. And I disagree. Additionally, I‘ll note this majority does not feature a majority of black people or people well versed on the topic. Food for thought.
Benjamin Ramsey Hi-thanks for commenting. I know the author is a really talented writer so I don’t doubt she’s well written. The lore‘s amazing. Which makes it even sadder. I really wish I could enjoy this show without being reminded of all the horrific history behind her design everytime I see her. It’s heartbreaking seeing smth you know you might enjoy but has elements that make the author‘s-in the best case scenario-ignorance directly hurtful to your particular demographic. I‘ve watched anime and read manga every day for more than a decade now, for many reasons, including escapism. I can’t escape from the racism of her design when I watch her though, and I‘ve dealt with enough of it for a lifetime. And that sucks, cause I loved the manga before she arrived, and seen analysis of her back story-it seems really interesting.
So. Yh. Feeling alienated by a medium you love isn’t great.
Benjamin Ramsey ah also, I‘m not African American. I‘m actually East African, so her features don’t even resonate that much with me. But people I loved have been affected by gross portrayals of their features, and I‘ve lived in Europe my whole life.
Benjamin Ramsey hey-no worries buddy. I would encourage you to read up on the depiction of black people in the Americas and Europe though (although there has been some positive ones I.e. the Moors) as most of it is more than just stereotypical-it’s racist, and things have only started to change veeeery recently. In some places, it hasn’t at all.
But Yh. I don’t expect you to see things like I do, but learning more about any topic always helps.
We just need more people who look like Yoruichi from Bleach and be done with it.
YASSS
honestly, i was on the fence, seeing your point a bit here and there. then i saw the thumbnail from one of the suggested videos where it showed a panel from the manga with sister krone.
safe to say I agree with you a whole lot more now.
although that also warrants a mention for the studio that animated it wanting to make it less racist while also trying to keep the original vision of the artist present, which i think is sort of commendable.
I liked Krone a lot. I thought she was beautiful. I only noticed her "features" when I was looking for fan art of her. I was like "Wow! Look at how she runs! She super fast and strong! She's so cool!"
Good for you??
Also its a stereotype that KILLS us. It's not about hurt feelings, it's about stereotypes that effects people in real life. In the way we receive medical care (we are way more likely to die during pregnancy, we are less likely to receive proper care or pain relief, ect. We literally die because of it).
Not just with the Police, not just the School to Prison pipeline. It effects how we have access to Medical care, education, job opportunities. And many times this does not change with education or socioeconomic status. It doesn't get protect us to be wealthy, or fit...it still can kill us. So ty for talking about it in a well researched and concise way, but I needed
to add that.
Loved the video! To expand on Austin Walker's point of criticism coming from love: we criticize things because we want things to get better (easier for things like NA based media). A lot of my game criticism (and criticism of the criticism) comes from wanting to push that medium forward in some way (and oh boy is the difficulty discourse right now)
I clicked on this video internally cringing and prepared for something... ranty, but this was everything, exactly, I wanted to hear someone say on the topic. The analysis here is accurate and straightforward without being simplistic, and idk I feel like it's hard to find any kind of literary criticism, whether it's a youtube video or an essay or twitter thread, that engages with the discussed work using BOTH the intentions, or lack there of, of the original creators, and the larger unfortunate context that the work exists in. It's just... so nice to see concerns like these being validated and treated seriously and truthfully, while not going to extremes like calling for a boycott of any work that contains problematic content regardless of what that problematic content is or how fully it invades or effects the rest of the work. This is the kind of intellectual, compassionate, informed content I love to see (especially in anime, where so many people dismiss attempts to these discussions seriously)
I loved krone she was my favourite character beside ray
I just discovered your channel and your content is amazing. I've thought for a while now that we've needed some more leftist/progressive critique of anime, and I'm glad that channels such as yours exist.
As I was watching the anime for the first time and saw the introduction of her character, I was super happy to see a black character represented in an anime! But then I noticed that Krone’s character design felt a little too...reminiscent of the racist “Mammy” stereotype, and I felt kinda strange about the fact that one of the very few times a black woman is inserted in this medium, she is a boisterous villainess. This depiction is especially concerning, considering how easy it is to pinpoint, or even sense, that she was supposed to be a foil of Isabella (who is not only very pale, but has a more svelte figure-two standards of beauty that the Japanese hold). But I thought I was probably just overreacting, especially since I’m not black (asian here!), so I thought it wasn’t my place to talk about this, nor is it to propagate the fact that there MIGHT actually be a problem. Plus, barring any weird stereotypes, I actually LOVED how nuanced her characterization was...
I felt the same way!! I got so excited and was omg black representation in anime!! But then I realized she was supposed to be the “creepy” character and that’s when it clicked to me. It’s a sweet then immediately bitter moment
Same feeling
I don't think Sister krones apperance has anything to do with racism....
I said this is another video analysis of Sister Krone, and got absolutely attacked by fans of the show... sad how many times I got called a race baiter, when I know enough about black representation in anime to know that Sister Krone was not drawn with decency but instead to perpetuate a stereotype about black people. It's funny: anime creators will draw white characters (that seems to be the default design in modern anime) so elegant and beautifully, but will draw black characters straight out of a minstrel show. The Japanese can no longer use the excuse "oh, well, we don't have a lot of black people in Japan! How are we supposed to know how to draw them!" This isn't the 90s anymore. Again, they have no problem drawing white characters nicely, but seem to make it a point to draw black characters as caricatures. can only count on one hand the number of black anime characters I've seen drawn in a dignified manner. Someone help me understand this. Do the Japanese really hate black people that much that they mock us even in their media, or are they just that ignorant on racial sensitivity?
Where's your movie pudding? We're waiting
@@purrinpawz Shouod be coming pretty soon, actually! Slept with a whole bunch of potential backers, so I already secured that 💵. Just gotta find a competent director
First I won't deny that the design might be showing some unconscious racism from the artist, but I don't think it was intentional. Furthermore, I think the design really compliments her personality and arc. She wanted to do her best in the training, we see in the backstory they making the girls fight. Since sister Krone is strong and athletic, we see that she was hardworking, trying to be the best in what others wanted her to be. We see that in the beginning she also loves her doll. However, after all that, she doesn't get the same recognition as other more feminine women as Isabella for example. She ended up growing with resentment and thus started abusing her doll. Her story shows how women that don't fit into traditional feminine aesthetics and personalities often get judged, no matter how hard they might try, the system is completely rigged against them. We could also add race into this, how the system often might have a prejudice against people from other races. Another reason why I don't think there is blatant racism is that there are other black characters with completely different designs.
Also, this is more visible in the manga, Isabella becomes scarier looking and possesses more exaggerated facial expressions (more so scary and stern), and looks very tall in the manga after the kids discover the truth showing that they now are scared of the adults. Since Sister Krone was introduced after that, I guess that's why they made her characteristics more exaggerated and "scary looking" at times. Even though not perfect, I really loved Krone as a character. She was my favorite in the series.
Ps.: Sorry for the long rant, also I'm not a native speaker, so sorry if there are mistakes in my English.
She's literally to aggressive 💀
@@revenant7276 On the flashback it shows they make the girls training to be "moms" fight with each other. Having physical strenght could be useful to avoid the kids from excaping the farm.
Of course with the messed up way she was raised and how that ended up paying for her ofc she got a bit crazy.
Thank you for saying racism is racism regardless of where you are. I’m tired of literally getting gas lighted by fans of anime saying that my experience of seeing black people only as stereotypes and literal blackface is false. People want to defend an entire country that they’ve never been to nor are from as either just naive or inexperienced which plays into American hegemony and the ideology of “the white man’s burden”. The races and/or ethnicities that appear in anime are often limited to Japanese or European. When black people go to Japan and are stared at, avoided, and licked (it happens) I can’t help but blame media and it’s influences (in this case American media).
Thank you for making this truthful and transparent video. Many need to hear this
I personally never thought of Krone as racist. I won't deny she embodies several stereotypes but I would say she's an amazingly interesting character. She is cunning to an amazing degree relative to other characters despite her short comings. As Norman stated, Tag is also a game of strategy and she was capable of capturing a rather large amount of students missing only a couple. I think she's a test of those who look into at the exterior and those who look into the interior.
Thank you
Thank you
THANK YOU.
For not only going into this discussion with painstaking detail, but for giving yourself powerful disclaimers. The internet loves to poke at any possible opening in an argument with a "But, but what about 'X'!" knowing that its likely an exception to the rule. This video is legitimately as foolproof as it gets.
i started off hating her, and ended up loving her character :(
Thank you for making this
The problem with her design or black designs in general is that their features are simply over exaggerated. In Anime it would be impossible to identify the difference between an Asian character and white character. If Asains were to be drawn with the same intent as Black, then their eyes would be smaller and much more slanted then how they are depicted. This comes either from ignorance or underlying racismism.
How beautifully and intellectually analyzed. Thank you.
Not having seen as much of the show or read as much of the manga as you, is it possible that Sister Krone's portrayal as a racist depiction could be read as a symbol for the way she is both a victim of and complicit in an oppressive system, similar to how real people who fit stereotypes are sometimes treated like they should feel guilty for that?
That was probably not intentional but turning a character who can be seen as a racist stereotype into a tragic and somewhat sympathetic figure is kind of cool, in a weird way.
No it’s fucking not how should they depict other races then when literally everyone is being suppressed the same in the manga and anime actually Isabella had a worse life than sister krone there is no need for black people to keep being misrepresented in the media for a fictional story and entertainment
Ok, maybe I COULD believe this but sister Krone is the only character drawn this way and she’s the ONLY woman who has these features. Hell, I’m pretty sure she’s the only one with actual drawn lips as well. It’s clearly a racial stereotype packed into the anime, tho I believe the creator was probably just ignorant to what they were doing. Either way, I remember seeing a little pool special in the manga and they make Krone out to be a steroid ripped man.
I love this video and how it can apply to almost anything. I'm glad to see someone put my thoughts into words and realize that just because there's a problem doesn't mean I'm trying to be offended or censor people.
I feel that people are taking this idea a bit to far when it comes to sister Krone and her design being raciest. Being an art student and being someone who has to design characters of ethic characters I feel people need to take a look a little deeper. Being someone who has to draw characters or people as they are. As Americans we a taught that anything that looks like that is always inaccurate even if it how you yourself want your character to look. None of my black friends have an issue with her design. There is this cultural difference between Japan and America and what is seen as racist here is scene as representation there. Her character over all is just a tragic once, deeper cut of the whole piece of the story and how the system in which they live in forces them to be this way. The anger she puts into the doll isn't for her racial stereotyping typing or to show her brutish nature. She is angry because she herself can not be a mother herself. The story of sister krone is a tragic one and that's as she is written. I love this anime and I appreciate the thought of adding a none Japanese character into anime.
That One I certainly don’t understand how my option dosnt stand because you assume I’m “non-black” and or assume my friends are “raciest” because they don’t agree with a character portrayed in an anime. I have stayed some ideas about the doll from an artist perspective which is just an idea and isn’t facts. I know it’s not in the manga, I’ve read and watched both. Her character in the anime is different then the manga but it still stands that I believe she is a beautiful tragic character and that’s how I will see her. This is the reason why no one wants to represent characters other then white in media such as comics because anything people will do is deemed raciest. It is a hard truth everyone has told me and my teacher, Aletha Martinez who taught me drawing ethnic characters that they are scared to draw these characters because of this bs. If you want to deem me and my friends racist that’s fine, but we like sister krone for her character and nothing more.
@That One I never stayed that you are calling me racist but from the comment you provided,"but don't act like an art class as a non-black person puts you in the same spot on perspectives" states that you think I don't understand being miss represented when you yourself have even stated you personally don't know who I am. As someone who studies comics, manga to be exact. I think her character is tragic as I stated before. It's just an my opinion on her character development through the story. For you to say " you are non- black person and you don't understand" is BS how do you know I am not also a black person or half black? can you make that assumption from a comment on UA-cam?? I am not belittling your opinion on the matter but don't tell me "it ain't chief" because I have no real issue with a character design from an anime. I can pull up so many more that are worst then this from media, specifically Japanese media. Read what you say first before you say I need to work myself out. I am just honestly here to say I like sister Krone and if you can't see that then maybe you are reading her entirely wrong.
@That One I see your point. I am not denying that you study something nor am I denying your ethnicity or race and your credibility BUT I am stating that using the "non-black card". I said I showed it to them, I am not trying to be like " oh look I have a minority on my side look at me I am right and they represent and entire race of people look!" No, I am stating a conversation we had about the topic. They are indifferent as they can be. You calling them raciest because they don't want to agree is wrong.Don't say you didn't just because you said you don't know them. I am my own minority. I understand the impotence of being represented and I understand stereotypes, I'm not naive or blind. I may have miss spoke but still make their point valid that they are just natural about this whole thing. Don't think it's racist but at the same time they could honestly not care. I don't believe race or skin color justified one opinion more then another. It sounded to me that you don't believe my opinion is valid because I am not black. I am not using them as a title, I never was I am just saying we are natural on the whole she is black face stuff. I am saying that I personally do not see anything wrong with sister krone, character wise and other. The anime is a fucked up thriller there is bound to be shit. At least they didn't have sister krone break the children legs. She was helping the kids and trying to be her own mother before her demise. I am not trying to say this whole video is wrong I am not trying to say that she is a God sent character that is the perfect representation of a character.
We have our opinions, I am saying that is fine I am not belittling yours at all. I am saying this as a story teller and an artist and just in general. If I was honest to God "belittle" black people don't you think I would have just said it out right? My point being , saying my opinion is invalid because I an not black is wrong and that it's okay to use things to help support your argument. I have an opinion, you have yours.
Being someone who has actually both worked and recruited people for the art industry this logic is bs...
And having an opinion doesn't mean it can be free from criticism.
Nor should something like this be dismissed as an opinion. It isnt a discussion. It's a problem.
Thank you thank you THANK YOU. I'm so tired of being continuously gaslighted
I think her design is hella fire. She's fueled with a crazed desire that, no matter what race you are, will always show brute force. You can see her kind and beautiful nature to the kids she raises and the list for control with her other. Sure some pieces of her can be a little overcompensating, but I see it as an expression of her crazy nature. No need to be offended by any means. P.S. I dislike the point you bring up about her "servant" nature reflecting racist means but uh- all mothers/sisters are servants??
i disagree entirely with the idea that sister krone is a racist character, she is portrayed the way she is because she's an adult and isn't supposed to look trustworthy or motherly like Isabella because she was introduced as an enemy from the get go, her entire purpose was to be an imposing obstacle for the kids and an enemy to Isabella who's hellbent on becoming a "mama" by any means necessary, her being black is not racism as much as its just a side effect of those ideas, that's how i view it at least.
Because it makes her more scary. The Promised Neverland is partly a horror anime, in case you forgot.
Most villains have androgynous qualities, deformities, racial stereotypes (goblins ayy lmao). Especially in media for kids. I dunno how to feel about it since it's not gonna stop being a thing any time soon.
Although you do sometimes see the inverse, where the heroes of a story are monsters and the villains are oppressive vanilla humans.
Just because it's a trope, doesn't mean it's free of criticism.
Personally I see the design of Krone as a nonissue. She’s a character whom only represents herself and no one else.
TheDefectiveAI I just feel this is literally overblown
Great points all around! I loved the show (and I even liked elements of krone’s character), but I felt really uneasy about the racist imagery/tropes. Your explanation really helped to support those feelings; thank you! Here’s hoping season 2 does away with the racist imagery and tropes and gives us more fleshed out and human POC characters.
As an Asian, I can confirm most others find anyone that isn't Asian strange. If an Asian sees someone white, black, hispanic/latino, or anyone that doesn't look how they're used to, they will find them strange.