Apple TV’s Foundation || season one final thoughts (spoilers)
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- Опубліковано 18 жов 2024
- Now that we’ve seen the season one finale of of Apple’s TV’s Foundation series, I wanted to discuss some of my final thoughts, now that we can look back at the season as a whole.
Thanks for watching.
#Foundation #AppleTV #Asimov
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DELPHINE DESCENDS
After her family is killed and her homeworld occupied, young Kathreen Martin is sent to the distant world of Furoris for re-education. She will live the rest of her life as a serf - to be bought and sold as a commodity of the Imperial Network.
When her only chance of escape is ruined, a chance mistaken identity offers her a new life as the orphaned daughter of a First-Citizen Senator and heiress to a vast fortune.
She vows to claw her way into power to sit among the worlds’ elite. Then, with her own hands, she will reap bloody vengeance on them all.
But to beat them, she must play their game. And she must play it better than them all.
BLACK MILK
Prometheus has the chance to bring his wife back from the dead, but doing so will mean the destruction of Earth.
Spanning time, planets and dimensions, Black Milk draws to a climactic point in a post-apocalyptic future, where humanity, stranded with no planet to call home, fights to survive against a post-human digital entity that pursues them through the depths of space.
Five lives separated by aeons are inextricably linked by Prometheus’s actions:
Ystil.3 is an AI unit sent back in time from the distant future to investigate Prometheus’s discovery...
The mysterious Lydia has devoted her life to finding a planet that the last remaining humans can call home…
Tom Jones (he’s a HUGE fan!) is an AI trapped inside a digital subspace, lost and desperate to find his way back to his beloved in real-time…
Dr Norma Stanwyck is a neuroscientist from 24th Century Earth whose personal choices ripple throughout time...
Prometheus must learn the necessity of death or the entire universe will be swallowed by his grief.
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I think the most important thing is to not pretend this is the Foundation books, it is a different story with some similarities to it. I think the single thing that has bothered me the most of all is that the robot is killing people.
Agreed... What happened to the three laws of robotics? This was a Wai...WHAT? Moment for me! They really seemed to have thrown the script out the window when they did this. The later scene when she has effectively an internal melt down and rips her face off doesn't resolve this point of principle. Her programming may have been tampered with so that these conflicts became a possibility but it's far stretched at best!
@@SusannaSaunders It is more than far stretched based on the books, it is impossible. The only way a robot could harm a human is if in the process it saved more humans, and even then, it would cease to operate if it did that.
I believe these are Zeroth Law situations that permit Eto/Daneel to kill. The android, in a role with immense influence that grants the ability to be a caretaker of humanity, believes it is doing things in the best interest of humanity as whole despite the harm to a single human being.
@@JasonGabler Yes, but, that would generally also then destroy the robot per the novels.
This series is about as far away from the books as your ever going to get. It may use the name Foundation and Hari Seldon but that's where all similarities end.
I really enjoyed the first season. The Cleons are probably my favourite character(s) of the series so far, as they have been made so much more complex, and fascinating in how they work. I really felt for the last Dawn Cleon and how he was thrown into it. And the revelation of what was really on the mural by Dusk at the end, exposing Dawn, was one of those things that you could see coming, but it was very well executed when it happened.
I am looking forward to season 2, I just wish we didn't have to wait a whole year almost for it... Damn this new 10 episodes only format of new series!!
The Cleon's were good, and Hari Seldon of course. The rest was sadly very mediocre. It gad virtually nothing to do with the books.
Harry being an interactive quantum A.I. is more evocative than a mere recorded message on a timer.
I agree, it’s a good twist, but robots and AI were supposed to be absent from the empire so it creates an issue. Its not a big issue, but yet another unnecessary issue.
@@peterfmodel they mentioned that. The Robot wars.
@@uncleanunicorn4571 True, although this creates other issues as there were no robot wars, at least written by Asimov in this universe. The robots left because they decided they were harming humans by their presence, and the galactic expansion was conducted by the over populated masses of earth, who hated robots, rather than the spacers, who liked robots but did not wish to colonise anything. I have to assume AI's were bundled in with the robots here.
I know why they did it; they wanted to have a single actor span the episodes, but the changes to accommodate this results in a very different story. The series is very watchable, but they would have been better off claiming it was only loosely based on foundation and called it something else. Blade Runner is a good example of where they changed a lot of stuff in the source novel, “Do Androids dream of electric sheep” and it worked.
Its only nit picking, but I was hoping for a “Lord of Rings” style of adaptation and instead I got a “The man in the high castle” or “Ghost in the Shell” adaptation, neither of which can be classed as a classic, but were watchable.
Yet it opens a question why no one else does it.
Gaal felt pretty worthless between Episodes 3-9. The *entire* going to Halcyon bit was an utter waste of time to convey a concept that could have been done in 3-4 minutes rather than over the course of two episodes, where camera time could have been dedicated to actual, rather than reductive, character growth. Not only does she seem 'Mary Sue' like in abilities, but her mental breakdown was poorly conveyed and the idea that she would burn about 160 years between her first escape-pod and going back to her home planet for... What? Exactly? Why? That entire last 10-15 minutes of Episode 10 spent with her had me rolling my eyes and asking "Why is any of this nonsense happening?"
Ignoring the internal inconsistencies and the math-magic that lets her magically have a nano-rowboat ready in her escape pod (bloody convenient, that- especially since she had no idea where she was going to be and the escape pod is more than capable of floating until the story decides it doesn't.) she also just so happens to land precisely on top of her magical embryo-daughter's sunken ship and spend more time than a trained U.S SEAL diving underwater and hauling heavy shit around after her muscles have been unused for 138 years. It kept my attention until the end of season, but I give it 6.5/10 at best.
Edit: I also could not, whatsoever, stand Gaal's over-arching narration during episodes. Her insufferable neutral tone combined with what I can only convey as pseudo-intellectual gobbledegook with SUPER EPIC ORCHESTRAL tracks blaring over it during montage-shots drove me a little bit mad. The entire time I kept thinking "What does this have to do anything? Why should anyone care?" It was the most boring and *truly* generic in every sense of the word sort of narration scheme. No actor could have saved it.
Agreed, the reasoning behind Gaal returning to her homeworld made no sense, especially since she knew it would take 100+ years and she had previously said the water level would become dangerously high. Why didn't she check if the planet was still inhabited before starting descent? Will she have any way to survive or leave the planet? This character is supposed to be smart but these decisions are comically bad.
Demrezel’s toolbox on her vanity depicts our native solar system. Considering how the origin of humanity is supposedly lost to history and myth and the significance of other objects that have appeared on her vanity (that trefoil flower) I can’t think that doesn’t hail something.
It may be a hint as to who "Demerzel" actually is from Asimov`s books. "She" is older than the Empire and the original colonisation of most of the worlds in the galaxy.
@@AbelMcTalisker I hope they're able to run the show long enough to get to some of that tasty Foundation and Earth goodness. They want to do 8 seasons of 10 eps total, so... fingers crossed.
Salvor being Gail's daughter was very obvious. I was wrong on many of my predictions on the series, but that one was all but explicit. Two women of the same ethnicity with the same exotic characteristics, and the older one being shown - in details - having her fetus removed? I didn't think it was a twist, just something that wasn't worth mentioning.
The Cleon line being tampered with? That was a twist. Specially since the prime suspect, Demerzel, seems to be unable to do that, thanks to the programming left by Cleon I.
I hope someone makes a films of the foundation books, because this is some other story.
I loved the Cleons, and Demerzel, too. A good attempt to put a face on the collapse of the Empire. But, I suspect Demerzel won't be in Season 2. We don't know whether she was broken by Brother Day's treachery on the Spiral. Or if she was behind the plot in some fashion. But the necksnap, showed she's freed from any conditioning to protect the Cleons. With Day being told, he too is corrupted, and Dusk, might be too. Also Demerzel waiting until Day had decided to tolerate Dawn's corruption, before she snapped his neck. Shows she's capable of vengeance. Certainly, she's not safe, and any/all future Cleons will be equally distorted. With her litertally tearing her flesh off, I read that as her abandoning the Demerzel personality, rather than revealing she's a robot.... again.
While I can see that, I think there's more to it. The Cleons at least from Day on know that they're corrupted from the first. It just took 400+ years for it to manifest. The fact that Day could accept Dawn to what the Cleons are is a sign of this. It may have actually be Demerzel's programming that kicked in when Day didn't kill him right there. Then when she get back to her quarters. Then the full expression of what she did comes out of her. Causing her to rip off her face. There's a very very long game being played here. A game that no human could do. I'll just leave that there.
You misunderstood
Great analysis! Subscribed.
It’s refreshing to see someone who understands the differences between the mediums and what’s required to translate a work of words to a visual work.
I enjoyed the series overall and am looking forward to the next season. I agree about the Mary Sue aspects of Gaal and Salvor and hope that those traits diminish. I also thought the narrative pacing of the show spun its wheels somewhat in the middle of the season; time that could have been used to develop characters. But hey, great production with lots of eye candy and much better writing and concepts than some other shows. [Discovery]
Disagree about the Mary Sue-like traits - Salvor and Gaal make very humanistic choices and failures which cost them and have dire consequences. None of their choices came across as 'easy' I was most surprised at how cruel the story was in particular towards Gaal, but it made for great drama.
I hoped for Asimov's foundation what I got was black female space Jesus. The writing's ok the acting's ok its good enough to show that they could have their own story they didn't have to mutilate Asimov's work.
As for "only 10 episodes vs. the 'good old days' of 22 eps" - we're talking about 10 episodes which are free to be over an hour long, or shorter as the story demands, to cover what is basically the first half of a 250 page novel (or, if you prefer, a couple of instalments from a magazine serial) with every viewer able to instantly re-watch previous episodes or save the whole series up for a binge. C.f. 20+ episodes that were less than 40 minutes once you'd taken out ads, had to be ruthlessly cut to a uniform length and subject to huge pressure to be self-contained stories that could be watched in any order, The two examples mentioned - Buffy and DS9 - were actually from a small handful of 90s shows that pioneered the technique of having an extended, well-planned "story arc" woven into the otherwise stand-alone episodes. More typically, the plot (and often character) reset button was pressed at the end of each episode, and mid-season was padded out with "money saving" filler episodes, up to and including actual clip shows. Also, novel adaptations in those days were like hen's teeth, and when the did happen tended to be in a mini-series format that is more akin to current streaming shows. Then, of course, movies have to try and squish a whole novel into 2 hours or less.
I can think of a few stand-out examples where what was probably an economically-prudent filler episode with limited cast/effects/locations turned into something special that made the Best. Episode. Ever. shortlist ("The Body" from Buffy, "Intersections in Real Time" from Babylon 5, "Midnight" from Doctor Who) but I suspect those happened *despite* the format, and the producers had to struggle to get them accepted. For every such triumph, there were a dozen "not even bad" filler episodes. (Personally, I have to say that about 1/3 of DS9 felt like that to me).
I think shows like Foundation have plenty of time to develop characters and do use it - for example, the extended scene between Brother Day and Azura (a character who's story had effectively ended in the previous episode) is the sort of thing that *didn't* happen very often pre-streaming, apart from the sort of exceptions mentioned above. I think some new shows - including Foundation - are struggling a bit to get the new "pacing" right, and sometimes end up *too* slow. I gave up on American Gods when it became clear that they were going to try and spin one novel out over at least three seasons, and the generally brilliant Expanse had some mid-season pacing problems in S1 and S5.
Or, to put it another way, you can *read* Foundation in less time than it takes to watch the show. They should have time.
Interesting comparison of the 90s style of serialized TV season vs the modern one.
I agree that a lot of time many eps in those seasons way back when ended up being filler, but... occasionally even a filler ep or a bottle ep featured some great character development that otherwise just wouldn't have happened.
I think as long as modern writers and directors are able to serve the characters well in the time they have, then the shorter, more streamlined seasons are just fine, but... sometimes they do feel a bit rushed. Mr. Robot (all 4 seasons), Severance season 1, and Foundation season 1 are some examples of shows I've enjoyed immensely in the past few years that I think did it/are doing it the right way.
I was waiting for you to review this and hear your thoughts
I love the lack of violence, for violence sake. It's not Star Wars or The Expanse, where space battles between factions is important.
"the crisis didn't end in violence"
Salvor killed Phara with an arrow through the throat... I thought that was disappointing
Sad but she was the Gordian Knot and Salvor was Alexander’s sword.
@@technopirate304 she was less Gordian Knot and more watered down version of the Sand Snakes from GoT. Poor writing overall.
@@davidrieger8816 Yup and it got worse. Gaal and Salvor are mother and daughter Mary Sue's. Here's a lost space ship from the past but don't worry I can operate it npnp.
In the end the TV-Series is ok, but its not foundation. There are four basic ways to redoing an older story.
1. Go down the Lord of the rings path and copy is as closely as possible from the source, only modifying it to fit into the new medium. That works.
2. Go down the John Carter of Mars path and modify it, but retaining the spirit/canon of the original source as much as possible. This is normally done to fit everything into a single movie. That is risky, but can work if the writers are good enough.
3. Go down the Logan’s Runs or Blade Runners path and use the source as a pallet and take elements of it to create your own, loosely based, story arc. This can work, but only if the original source was not very good so you avoid comparisons. A classic source is a high bar to jump.
4. Go down the Battle star Galactica path and create your own totally new story while barely taking any elements of the source. This is basically a new story which uses the name of the source. This only works if the new story is good and if the source was not a classic.
If dealing with a classic story method 1 and 2 is the best path to success, if the not dealing with a classic story path 3 and 4 is the best option. There are exceptions, Blade runner was a classic movie, as well as a classic novel, but the novel was not as popular as foundation so most people watched Blade Runner with no knowledge of the novel.
For apples foundation tv-series, Option 3 was selected and the outcome was acceptable, but it was not Foundation and certainly not a classic.
The source material is good for this, so option 3 was just OK at best.
The source material was not good for a TV-series. It lacked too much character development.
@@pirualado47 Foundation did need to be modified for the new medium, as the new DUNE movie was, for example. What I suspect you are talking about is character arc, do we have enough information to care about the character to continue to watch the TV-series. In this ASIMOV was lacking, although the Mule had a very strong character arc, but it was the exception. ASIMOV was trying to make people relate to the idea of the 1st foundation, rather than any character, and this was understandable as each charter had totally different characters. The Mule was the exception as he spanned chapters.
The original foundation was a classic and whatever the TV-series was going to do it was always going to be compared with the original source material and unless the creators were equally brilliant, which is not the case, it was always going to be lacking.
One way to adapt this to a TV-series was for the 1st season to focus on just the 1st chapter, following it accurately, adding character-arc’s and story-arcs to keep people watching the next episode. The 1st chapter is long enough for several hours of viewing and once we add backstories and any other extra story-arcs we could fill 10 episodes.
Start with Gaal Dornick, add a few episodes which provide backstory info for why he/she became a mathematician and left his/her home planet. This should kill 2 episodes.
On Trantor a big element of the novel was Gaal discovering the world planet which was trantor, you could add a whole episode on how vast and amazing the planet was and Gaal amazement at discovering this.
Then Gaal meets an imperial agent, you could have several episodes around the consequences of this. A good example would be Gaal receives a message to run and hide, which he/she does and you could have several episodes with Gaal trying to evade the imperial forces. You could even do the space elevator explosion if you wish. Have someone helping Gaal and then have that person killed after they developed feeling for each other, there are lots of star-arcs you could add.
Then have an episode covering the whole point of the novel, when Gaal secretly meets seldom and the story of the end of the empire is explained and at the end of the episode they are captured.
Then you could have an interrogation episode when Gaal is mentally tortured to reveal dirt on Seldon, or betray Seldon. We have 7 episodes covered.
Then the trial, we could have flashbacks during the trail, Seldon's character development added, but mainly a court room drama where the tension is what will happen to Gaal.
The 9th episode would the imperial deal, Seldon accepting it and Gaal going to the university in a state of despair, as he/she now feels they have lost and the empire has won. At the end the big reveal occurs and Gaal discovered it was Seldons plan from the start.
For the last episode we setup season 2, perhaps the initial colonisation of terminus and ending with Gaal looking at the settlement and the stars with new hope for the future. We could even add a bit where Seldon reveals he used Gaal as a useful idiot to achieve his objective, which would be a great double shocking ending.
Imagine a writer, having lived through a terrible war that killed 50,000,000 people, daring to dream of a world where conflict is resolved by means other than violence. Now imagine his legacy being SHAT ON FOR 10 F!CKING EPISODES! MURDER ROBOTS! "WAR IS INEVITABLE!" SUPER-DUPER GAME OF THRONES HEROES JOURNEY MARY SUE JEDI MIND POWERS VS HUNGER GAMES LADY AAAAAAAAHHHHHH!
I agree with many of your points. I was, however, thrown off early on when Gaal completely disappeared from the story, until the very end of the season of course. I thought Gaal was a very promising character ready to break out, but then she vanished. Having not read the books at all, my perspective is from a neophyte to the storyline. The Cleon story line was excellent, indeed, in part due to good casting. The Salvor storyline was a bit foggy to me and others I've discussed it with. It got clearer near the end of the season. Seldon showing up after seeming to be written out of the story was a relief. In any case, I'll watch S02. Your more 'learned' voice on the topic is very useful. Thanks.
I'm intrigued by the idea of "the two Haris": the one in the vault, built from Hari's body (and brain) at the moment of death; and the one heading to Helicon, built from the mind transfer that Gaal interrupted. Is "Download Hari" damaged in some way? Can Download Hari and "Vault Harri" communicate? What happens if their differences put them at odds down the road?
Only two? There may be more to come. Original saga idea included only one pre-recorded Hari but new development made an A.I. the obvious choice. And, we’ve got two A.I.‘s so far. As far as I understood Asimov he ran with the idea that the positron is robit wasn’t binary digital but something different. The electric brain that got fried kind of killed the binary digital story arc.
Defending my point of view here, I’d like to add the twist of the Cleon anagram into clone. That idea was not included the the original stories but Asimov toyed with it in the extended saga. Thus, the Cleon clones were surprising but not out of order. I think med may se more surprises as the seasons come along.
Having daughter Robyn Asimov onboard the producing team also should give the writers some cover against us diehard fans. Or at least, the ones amongst us who cannot fathom a different canon.
Unfortunately it just diverged further and further from the books as time passed and just never was Foundation to me.
I want good sci-fi, and I can see they tried. But the way the show feels is more like dune than Foundation. We already have messiah type sci-fi fantasy shows. Plus world building is terrible. I don’t have a feel of the universe within the show at all. It’s pretty from a visual standpoint but I have no logistical perspective to work with. I want to throw the Expanse out there as an example of sci-fi done right. Proper adaptation and any changes “make sense” from a narrative standpoint and flow well in the story.
Vince Gillian from Breaking Bad discusses the importance of attention to detail when filming and writing in regards to producing a show. The breaking Bad podcast is a very revealing look into high level TV film production and why things are done they way they are. Oh and sometimes he got lucky and was able to work well with chance opportunities.
I know I got off track but my point was all that crap has to line up for a show to be at the level of Expanse or Breaking Bad. As pretty as Foundation is, and as solid as the performances are, the show feels lazy and not ambitious in the least with its storytelling, which foundation is so old and vague on certain things it could’ve been changed without loosing the core of what Asimov I felt was trying to tell. They could’ve worked with new ideas and perspectives at the same time. Instead it’s stuff I’ve seen done a million times before (figurative) but much better and with subtlety.
Stow it, noneed-4me2. Apple TV plus did a good job with Foundation world building.
@@oliveremmettknox7776 if they’re doing “their own thing” sure. I standby what I said regardless and if that rubs you wrong sorry.
This is one of those shows that should have had absolute minimal tinkering with the plot.....after episode one I had to unsubscribe from Apple TV and watch free streams....I've been waiting 15 years for a adaptation to happen.....I'll gladly wait another 15 for a faithful adaptation
Hear hear!
Overall I wasn't that impressed. Gets a 6/10 from me. Watchable but had very little in connection to the books. It's problematic whether I'll bother signing up again for the second season. Most likely not.
It's like Star Wars and Dune shagged and the offspring were beautiful but were seriously lacking in the sincerity department and had evolved to become stupid half way to adulthood from loitering about by the post editors drinks cabinet.
I just finished the show yesterday and first thing I do today is watch this video. I haven't read the books so for me the show is a whole new experience without comparison to any source material. I totally enjoyed it to be honest, I admit the start was a bit slow and maybe complicated a bit with so many new things to keep in mind, but with each episode I felt more engaged.
The climax for me was for sure episode 8 and for the ending I found it refreshing that the conflict for once didn't get resolved by an epic spaceships turn off your brain fight. But it was through rationality. I am looking forward to second season and this became easily one of my favorite shows that I watched this year and is ranked very high in my all time favorite shows. Will definitely give it a 2nd watch.
I gave up on the show after about 4 episodes. I really tried. I liked the changes they made from the book. My problem was that all the characters, most of whom are supposed to be geniuses, were total dumbshits. Came to hate them all. They really wasted a good premise with horrible writing.
God I loved this! This series is incredible! I couldn't believe how great it was and with nobody talking about it. I don't understand how this show is getting so overlooked! I enjoyed this so much more than Dune, which it's very similar but way more epic. Also this is book I've tried to read for many years and just couldn't follow it. The way they do it in the series is just brilliant. The way they introduced Cloning as a method to fix one of the most difficult aspects of the book is so smart. Lee Pace. wow. What a Role!
Foundation is an impossível job that is turning out great!!
Saying " Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" is the refuge of people who are incompetent when it comes to violence...
G.K.Chesterton
I'm sorry but that quote is fucking dumb.
I am so sad I just found your videos on this show now that the season is over.
I hope with season 2 they really focus more on Demerzel. Give us some insight on how much of her is from the book. Ever time she comes on the screen,I find myself thinking about the book character and the robot series. We need More flashbacks! I’m excited for the next season.
I just couldn’t care about the entire Terminus story. Just show more Empire!
I think in a year where Dune also came out to the cinema, I think this show was very disapointing. Not that is bad, but it lacks a lot of creativity. They really tried to get similar to a lot of other stuff, not just Game of Thrones, but the new Star Wars and new Star Trek 's as well. Those aesthetics are now really old and updated. But maybe it's not even the aesthetics or the "palace" intrigue or whatever that makes it less good, rather the way everything is done, lacks genuine novelty. It could've been, e.g. much more abstract. I'd love to have seen idk even a "Tree of Life" kind of thing, tv show or movie, where things become indeed conceptual, "shown, not told", and play a lot more with the imaginarium. They didn´t have to tell it was a genetic dinasty, but have indeed clones. One thing I liked too was the fact people couldn´t see themselves being transported through space.
Also there's a lot of old 50-70's aesthetics that could've been used, those scenarios of surrealism.
Even the way all the filming was done, is a bit clichéd. Too digital, too close to what we've been come to expect. The cast though, very very good, speally Hari Seldon. Summing up, needed abstraction, surrealism, and new creative technology.
I first read the Foundation trilogy in the 1970s and thought it brilliant. I also read the early robot books and enjoyed them. During the pandemic I read through the robot books to all foundation universe books. Asimov was brilliant. I always knew the books could not be transferred simply to the screen. I enjoyed the Apple TV Foundation series 1. I fully agree with your points of character development, which I hope the writers will address. I look forward to the next series and hope it follows the broad plot of the books. The mule’s effects on people will be interesting as will, hopefully, the appearance of the second Foundation to get things back on track.
Frankly, my final impression of season 1 was mildly negative. The touch-and-feel of the Foundation series is more like Dune than like the original (full disclaimer: I was a BIG fan of the original's larger-than-life, history-is-more-than-big-men approach). And the attempts at making the characters tridimensional mostly fail -- Dornick comes off as exaggeratedly emotional, Seldom as artificially/theatrically conniving and manipulative (the acting strangely reminds me of Shatner at its worst), and Hardin is trying so hard to be both a superhuman hero and relatable that I have to roll my eyes at her. The Cleons were a welcome surprise, but after Dusk turned on Dawn because of the genetic imperfections, I again had to roll my eyes...
In short, it seems to me they're trying to make Foundation into an action-packed series with characters full of emotions and conflicts; but they're doing it in such an exaggerated way that the result is more often than not eye-rolling (the Cleons being an interesting exception, and even they had their eye-rolling moments).
Because of that, I must admit I'm not really curious to see what Season 2 will bring. I'll probably watch it when I have some extra time (it will be far from my first priority), but I don't expect to enjoy it. The visuals will probably be the only saving grace. It's a pity that, in an age with TV shows with lots of nuance and complexity, Foundation ended up having neither: it has incoherence in characters trying to be nuance, and near-pointless 'complicatedness' in characters trying to be complexity. At least, that's what I've seen so far.
Yey! I was waiting for this vid. I enjoyed S1 too and cant wait for S2. Goyer said they'll be keeping only up to 6 characters from season to season so after S1 thats Gaal, Sal, Holo-Hari, Demerzel and The Cleons (does the Shadowmaster not age too?). That means no Hugo, Mari, Rowan, Poly and friends should also be dead too wow. Terminus will be alot different when Gaal and Sal returns unless there are be flashbacks.
After Foundation maybe ill be watching The Wheel of Time and Station Eleven for the rest of the year. Great vid Darrel. 👏👏
I don't think there will be anyone there on Terminus when Gael and Sal get back there. The second foundation will have been built by then. Now as to when Gale and Sal find it is another story.
Cleons were great! rest is ok, bearable.
The cleons have the best scenes , I love their dialogue, character development and influence .
anyone know if its out on DVD or even Blu Ray? I'm trying to find it to get the first season to watch
I agree that Season 2 needs more character development. I want to see much, much more of Harry Seldon- Jared Harris is an AMAZING & interesting actor, he made Harry Seldon so compelling! I was upset that he was not in more of the episodes, they could’ve shown flashbacks of him, like when they were trying to figure things out, remembering what he said & did.
Jarid Harris is such an entertaining actor, that there are tv series I would’ve never continued watching, or enjoyed without him. Chernobyl is one example. I didn’t think I’d like Chernobyl, but I gave episode one a try, and I was hooked. I’ve seen the series 3 or 4 times.
Apple's Foundation is so far from the books, and the important ideas of the books, that it is misappropriation of the intellectual property. It's also bad TV with mediocre acting and sloppy screen writing. It's stands out as an example of how not to adapt a book.
Dafuq
Nicely done bringing up 10-eps only seasons. It ends up rushed and there's plenty of souce material do widen that to maybe 12-15 episodes so they can develop the season a little further. The morning show's season 2 felt super rushed and given it's one episode per week being reseased for streaming, I honestly believe a 15 episode season would be lovely for everyone indeed
Love your analysis of adding. "calm characters before the storm" episode. Really a great point!
I have hopes that Season 2, will learn the lessons from the audience reactions, and flow more naturally. For me, a portrayal of psychohistory should have an inevitability to the resolution, since it's meant to deal with masses of people. With the seeds of Empire's destruction being sown with their failure to find the root of the attack on the Star Bridge. Also, that might have been a self-inflicted wound, if their deception was known in sowing dissent in the outer reach. I suspect/hope we have a good character to replace Demerzel in season 2.
I have a feeling if there's one character that's not ever getting the boot it will be Demerzel. Her character is one of the few beings that has seen the Empire before it was created over 12000 years ago. If anything her character is only going to become more important as the series continues. Let's just hope they don't F it up.
@@RobertWilke I hope so, too.
I was quite disappointed with the second half of the series.
All the stuff and speeches against violence... and ultimately Salvor kills the huntress from Anacreon? Quite hypocritical.
I found the solution to the first crisis too easy, too sudden and unbelievable. Anacreon and Thespis were at war for something like thousands of years... and Seldon's words are enough to make them become allies? Come on...
Also, I really really really didn't like Leah Harvey. I never saw her in any other role, but I found this interpretation quite bad. She always had ONE single facial expression and monochord voice, except for a couple of scenes. I also found her extremely annoying.
It's a pity, because the visuals were amazing and I liked Dornick/Seldon's story. Oddly enough, though, I liked this show more when it divided itself from the original material: the imperial storyline. I loved the clone emperors plotline, the acting was really good, Trantor looked really cool, and I found the characters more engaging.
I agree, the resolution of the hostilities between Anacreon and Thespis all hinged upon a story told by an electronic being who is relaying an unverifiable deathbed confession? There is no reason why any educated, skeptical person would believe such an extraordinary tale, especially if the original suspect did not also spend the rest of his life denying that he murdered his new bride.
If I was there, I certainly would not have taken this gossip as evidence of anything.
@@misterspike Precisely.
@@misterspike I disagree with this interpretation. While it is a fantastical gossip, it's a way for everyone to come together as one and save face. This is what Hari was saying about history, what matters is the story that gets told. Everyone there realized that the best outcome for their children is to work together, to plant trees and build for the future. Hari's convenient story is an acceptable myth that enables everyone's mythologies to intertwine. Hari even said that he lied previously, so what if the story is a complete fabrication as long as the best possible outcome for everyone is achieved. I like a story that ends with everyone agreeing that peace is the better outcome.
@@legojaymanBut it's utterly unrealistic.
@@misterspike Arguably, there was no reason why Anacreon and Thespis should have been at each other's throats. They were both victims of the plot to destroy the Star Bridge and the retribution of the Empire. Shouldn't they be *joining forces* against a common foe?
(Small tangent: The Star Bridge is far too small an idea for the seat of over a million worlds with hundreds of trillions of people. Trantor would have dozens if not hundreds of Star Bridges.)
Also, I'm calling it. Seldon was behind the Star Bridge plot. He set the entire thing up as a way to set events in motion. The "big reveal" will be that Seldon is the big bad and that the universe will have to fend without him. Not that anyone really seems to give a damn about his "math" already. We've got superpowers instead!
The writers need to hide the Mule cleverly, so I predict Mule will be a muscular black dude.
To be fair, Harry Seldon is as much of a Gary Stu as the Gaal and Salvor are Mary Sue's.
In my opinion Lee Pace's villainous portrayal of Emperor Day is the best acting out of the show. Most of the characters seem bland, and to perfect, but you see Day struggle, manipulate, and use whatever underhanded tactic he needs to in order to keep his grasp on the empire. He's flawed, that makes him interesting to watch.
Harry's story arch is kind of boring to so far. He's like oh no I have to be stabbed and live as an AI in order to save man kind. That really makes his death hold less meaning to the audience. There are countless things like that in the series that made me cringe. So, you can't really trash Gaal or Salvor without trashing Harry too.
I will admit the show has gotten me interested in reading the book series, but I doubt I'll watch season 2 of the series.
Great analysis! I have only one problem with the show, and it's the lack of recognition that the Seldon Crisis are a character on their own.
The first time someone mentions a Seldon Crisis comes out of nowhere, with no prior explanation or mention. It felt very out of place, like if a key scene somewhere was deleted in post production.
I hope they give the new audience a better overview of that aspect.
Uh no let’s not do drug addiction as personality development.
I’ve seen this done with female sci-fi characters and POC female characters in particular.
It really struck me as sloppy and tone deaf writing
It was just a joke on his part.
@@subraxas I know but I’ve seen it used on Star Trek Enterprise and Picard and I was like “Really folks”
@@technopirate304
I personally believe that a depiction of self-induced (so no Ketracel White) drug addiction could have, or perhaps even should have, appeared on Star Trek much sooner, given the long-term staple of the franchise's dealing with allegories and analogies of our real world's ailments.
The only other example of such a kind of drug addiction I can currently think of is the TNG S1 episode Symbiosis and that one was rather bad since the subject matter at hand was handled thereon quite poorly. But the whole season (masterminded by Gene himself) was a piece of trash overall, save for very few bright exceptions therein.
Maybe another drug-related example would be DS9's episode Muse.
P.S. - In a regard of our world's problems and given what has been recently going on in the States in a concern of their abortion laws, I presume that if DSC or Picard were to do an episode similar to TOS's The Mark of Gideon, lots of NuTrek haters would, again, go nuts over it.
P.P.S. - I believe that the upcoming Strange New Worlds will deal with topics such as these, as well as (not only) TOS consistently did before, but lots of short-sighted people will have problems with it again. But not me, because that's one of the things ST should be about and has been about all along.
Salvor Hardin on the desert planet of Terminus
Paul Atreidies on the desert planet of Arrakis
Luke Skywalker on the desert planet of Tatooine...
Hmm, starting to notice a pattern here🤔😂
Jokes aside, I absolutely loved this adaptation of Foundation, and thoroughly enjoyed your breakdown.
Having read the Foundation Books years ago, I couldn’t imagine these books ever being adapted. When I saw that someone was actually making one, I was skeptical seeing how current filmmakers and writers were handling stuff that should have been a cakewalk to adapt and were completely botching it. I decided to skip it until I I saw what other Asimov and sf fans who were fair and balanced in their critiques thought of it. Thanks to you, I’ll give this a shot. Thanks.
I really don't want to be that guy. I hate saying it. But they diversified the cast from the books (which I'm completely fine with as it's a sci-fi setting and they wrote it in well within the setting), BUT they made the new, diverse ,strong female characters too perfect. I think they overcompensated when writing in strong diverse female characters and forgot to write good characters.
Gaal and Salvor are Mary Sues because they haven’t had a chance to mess up and show their flaws. That said they are very much like male anime characters from the shonen genre.
Hi Darrel, last weekend I binge-watched (is that a word?) Foundation. And I loved it. I read the complete book series twice (as a 15 year old and later, when I lived in Singapore) and enjoyed the themes a lot. Especially all the layers within layers. The whole clones thing in the tv adaptation is a really smart move. I am less of a fan of violence and more of a lover of riddles. Thanks for your analysis and with you, I am looking forward to season 2, and more I hope!
I hated this series. Asimov is my favorite sci-fi writer and this just butchers his work. It shouldn’t even be called Foundation because it is so terrible compared to the novels.
It did have some good things. The Cleon's were well done and naturally Jarred Harris was great as Seldon. The rest however was totally forgettable and had virtually nothing to do with the books.
Good adaptations need not be direct translations of the source material.
I just came around to this series. While I am not a super fan of the book (having read the first), I do like it. However, I don’t think it could be directly adapted. This is a good adaptation. And it’s nice women exist in this version. The Cleons are really interesting.
I have been enjoying the show immensely. I also wish they made more episodes in the season, for greater character development. But I fear our modern, fickle audience would lose interest too quickly.
Gaal Dornick is written quite well and she doesn't have to be addicted to crack to grit her up... that is a disappointing prejudiced stereotype to have heard in your commentary. Her character is not a Mary Sue. She studied math to SAVE HER PEOPLE from climate change. They would not listen to her scientific calculation warnings to raise the houses. Now her entire community is gone, that we know of. Her frustrations as a precog smart one in the room is heartbreaking.
You forgot Bel Rios, he will appear before the Mule. He is the last "strong" Imperial Admiral who seeks the now legendary Foundation and it's conquest! He deals with the last "strong" Emperor. In the books the Emperor is a single individual. Which gave me a thought. How could we end the cloned Cleonic Dynasty and get back to a single Emperor. Well I pose this question to fans, "Who is the most altered Cleon Clone: Dawn or Day?" My answer is Day! Afterall he left Trantor as first Cleon ever to do so, He delved into the Luminary Sect going as far as to walk their sacred spiral, he wanted to spare his percieved "son" Dawn even though he was flawed, and he believes in Selden's prophecy!! And he smashed the original Cleon in his case!!! I believe the he will destroy the clone aspect of the dynasty, destroy Dusk as corrupted, go to Dermezel and with his incite into the Luministic Religion, convince her to help him establish a "human" Cleonic dynasty based solely on him as the new sole emperor Cleon the 13th and his heirs. He will take a woman from Trantors great houses and make her the new Empress. For Dermezel, it will be the fusion of her religion and protection of the new Cleonic biological, hereditary dynasty. For brother Day, now sole Emperor, he will regain a new biological son and heir
That's a very plausible possibility. Let's see where they take all this.
Greatly appreciate this review. I haven't read the books and I'm only thru episode 2. I really love the SciFi stuff in the series. Gaal had started to annoy me a bit but I couldn't pin it down until I saw this review. So far, not really feeling chemistry between her and Rayche. Enjoying the mathematics angle, although I don't understand it much. Looking forward to getting more into the show.
Finished the series couple of minutes ago. I did not read the books and this was a very pleasant surprise. I never expect from any movie to copy the books, because then i would never watch it. The setup in Foundation is similar to a Galactic Cloud Atlas and with elements of Star Wars, Star Trek, Jupiter Ascending even Blade Runner. Everything was in it. But the biggest similarities are surprisingly between Warhammer 40k universe, Emperor of Man and Cleons. The Cleons where the most interesting concept of this series, a concept not strange to people that are familiar with pop culture lore's to not only classic sci fi. I did not read the books but they should have made the first season mostly about them and not try to compress 200 years or how much it was in the end. Seeing Cleons trio and the whole galactic empire they control raised so many question in me and most of them remained unanswered. I was sincerely not interested in anything the outcast did, because they did nothing, just lived their meaningless lifes untill a random act happened. And i am sincerely tired to see galactic civilization with ships capable of folding space but they use leather armor and bow and arrows. That was a total turnoff for me and was ridiculous in so many aspects. I understand that Asimov knowledge was limited back them but i expect more from the people of today and they should adapt old ideas not copy them 1-1. Also please stop to give powerful woman characters full body scars and ridiculous haircuts. Gaal and Salvor where extremely uninteresting and waste of time. Their acting was bad and they did nothing over the 200 years and most of their action was in the the category "dumb luck", and that is not acceptable to me. Plus seriously back down on religion use in galactic scifi. Is there really no single space scifi that is free of this plague ?
Common on dude are you for real???
The Hollywood agenda bs is littered all through the series. More some of the effects scenes were actually awful, hardon is also as charismatic as a lump of wood and some of the dialog makes me want to vomit it’s so bad.
When hardon shows up 130
Odd years later my arse fucking clenched so tight with rage that I popped a kidney.
THe mood of the background music is "acceptance."
The defining nature of a Mary Sue is not just being nearly perfect, without flaws, but it's also being awesome without "paying one's dues"; i.e., without experiencing any kind of difficult struggle. Thus Gaal is close to being a MS but in the final analysis doesn't qualify: she clearly did pay her dues/experience a struggle because she was ostracized and excommunicated by her people.
This show is complete and utter dross. The dialogue is painful
That’s for that and certainly food for thought.
What I like from the book is that it is a tale of a mathematical social science. Characters are not important on the individual level, just the mechanics of psychohistory. I understand that this is hard to translate without making it boring, but the show is too different, and way too messy, with too many heroes and weird powers.
I didn't like it, overall.
And then we have an amazing Cowboy Bebop, way closer to the original anime than Foundation to the book, getting all the hate.
Needed to get her addicted to crack 😂 I love that. But agree, dangerous to make her like Rey in SW sequels. Damazel is a very intriguing character. I want to see if she’s so devoted to the dynasty and how far she will go to protect it, even from current iterations of Empire.
Goyer has said Season 2 will include the church of the galactic spirit subplot along with Hober Mallow and Bel Riose. As a result, I doubt you will get the character development you are hoping for, looks like Season 2 will be plot dense requiring faster resolutions than 1. Not much time to develop the characters. I can see Salvor going back to Terminus and then serving as mayor, but Gaal staying put, maybe to turn Synnax into the show's version of Gaia with Gaal as Bliss. I enjoyed 1 but thought it had pacing problems, with Goyer telling his own story through Asimov's concepts. Should be more show-books balance in 2.
Honestly, Salvor felt more like a Mary Sue than Gaal. Gaal got the short end of the stick every time to the point she was left stranded on her flooded home planet 140 years in the future. Her math skills and precog didn't exactly help her until that meteorite flew through the glass on the ship. Salvor on the other hand has no demonstrated unique skill beyond her precog. We're just told she's "special." Yet she was the person that solved everything with absolutely no information whatsoever.
Everyone pronounces Gaal like "Gale," which is incorrect. It should sound like "Gall."
I hated the show. I didn't decide I hated the show until about episode 8. It's the worst
I don’t think Gaal is a Mary Sue because no one would want to be her. Her life has had more pain and heartache than joy. She’s not a good people person. She’s not charismatic.
All three main leads have yet to make any wrong calls with their choices or predictions, instead being limited in their human capacity or by those around them. Very true to source, if you ask me.
I have not read any of the books and in fact knew nothing of this story. I only stumbled across the show by accident. I am in love with season one ans think it might be the best tv show I’ve ever seen. Sadly I am incredibly disappointed in season two so far amd hope things improve quickly. Im amazed that they made in my opinion the best show ever in the 1st season only to drop the ball so far in the second.
I need less character development and more plot for fucks sake. The original plotting of Foundation was better.
Typically they just use the name to generate buzz and then change the entire story. See Rings of Power and Wheel of Time
It did have some good things. The Cleon's were well done and naturally Jarred Harris was great as Seldon. The rest however was totally forgettable and had virtually nothing to do with the books.
I never read the books, but I love The Foundation TV series. I'm not a person who reads books for pleasure. Movies and TV shows entertain me and ease my boredom than silently read a book by staring at a page before moving on to the next page/chapter.
Try using your imagination. Trust me I always hated books but eventually I watch all the tv shows and movies to the point there was nothing to watch. So I read. Do it slowly.
One of the best sci fi works in a long time in any film media... brother day has really grown in his ability to as brother dawn said, "empathize" after his villainous deceit of his vision on the spiral path.... this was an epic show.... dont care at all for Gaal... Salvor is a good character to me. She has some mistakes done so I'm ok with her character.
The Mule is a compelling character, but the writers must advance the story a few decades to introduce him with any alignment to the novels.
What a horrific adaptation of a great series of novels. No intelligence in the writing - just manufactured silly drama.
First of all: this is based on 3 books. Mixed. And let's be honest: if they want the life of Seldon? They could actually find enough info for a 1st season (they used a lot about it but mixed, left out a lot that they could use). But the main! issue here is: there is a reason WHY the Foundation exists. And without!!! any person who can use the ideas of the math behind it. and why the girl (adopted by Sheldon) is the base of the Second Foundation is not known by them. What exactly is the 1st crisis here? The Empire is dying. The emperor is dead. The last who was important. As it is dying the external systems!! closer to Foundation are going into anarchy. They lose their knowledge. That's the base of the external!! issue of the Foundation. There are 3!! different powers rising and the Empire's last power in the behind. And there is the issue inside! the Foundation. Always there is an external and an internal issue in balance! That causes the solution and the change that makes faster the change and only 1000 years to go in the line of history not 10.000... That is the gift of Seldon. Here it is lost how these are presented. The themes are the key to Asimov's work. Not the fights. Not the action itself. Like Dune the movie here too the themes. They should present 2 issues and the characters are moving on those. So basically they are changing the setting of Asimov.
I really enjoyed the antagonist characters. They where well written and the performance of Lee Pace, Terrence Mann and of course Jared Harris was top notch. The protagonists on the other hand felt cliché and the unnecessary love scenes shoe horned in for pace. Their dialogues some times felt downright cringeworthy, especially Leah, Lou, Daniel MacPhearson and Alfred Enoch with moping frowned faces 80% of the time.
I genuinely loved the bad guys portrayal, but hated the good guys more (except for Jared witch feels more ambiguous)
I understand that they're collapsing and mixing together the trilogy into a single arc, in effect, for effect. However, the use of spiritualism/religion felt off to me, especially when it to came to Daneel (Demerzel) having a vision in the circle (ages ago) while Empire fails to have one. Clones don't have souls? This is exacerbated by the reveal that none of the existing emperors is a true clone after all, and may not have been for some time. It's paradoxical.
While lying about his vision, Empire is still changed by the experience, confesses a belief in Seldon, and wants to allow at least the small change of mercy on Dawn. Daneel immediately kills the young man to prevent friction with Sunset, after previously balking at the order to kill Zephyr to preserve the Empire. In the book, of course, Daneel is the one who convinces Seldon to develop psychohistory, knowing the Empire was going to fail.
It's been decades since I read the trilogy, but it all seems a bit off. Psychohistory is supposed to be constantly updating and evolving, whereas it feels like little to nothing is being done after Seldon's initial plan. By collapsing the three stories, the timeline is also way off. There is no sense of the passage of time, the empire collapsing to 'barbarism,' the Foundation building itself up as a technological beacon in the night. Should I even mention that two mutually hateful nations setting aside generations of conflict on the basis of a 5 minutes speech by Seldon?
Seldon also seems confused by the discovery of Gaal's prescient powers, even though he's already set to establish the Second Foundation. I really hope the second season wows me. I like character development, but it feels like they're sacrificing the essence of the Foundation trilogy to achieve it.
I agree with all your points. I didn't go into the show as a cynic, just someone who wanted to be pleasantly surprised. However, by Episodes 8-10, for all the reasons you've described, everything felt terribly off-kilter and incorrect from just a story-telling point of view. I was happy to see that Day had revelations and a new empathy after his journey *even* after killing a potential political rival. I was worried the writers would shrug off all his experiences there and just keep him same-old-Cleon. But the empathy and forward-thinking concerning Dawn demonstrated that the writers *are* capable of something deeper than surface-tension villainy... Which they immediately eliminate by having Daneel, an Asimov Robot, immediately snap Dawn's neck. It's just illogical. And if that's the point, it's still illogical on a meta-narrative level beyond the internal logic of the story. I give it a 6/10.
The vault Hari Seldon AI seemed surprised by Salvor Hardin's presence, but since he assumed Gaal would be there at Terminus handling everything, that mostly explains that...
But I think the Helicon-bound ship Hari Seldon AI wasn't really surprised by Gaal's prescience. He seemed to be coaxing her into admitting it more than unaware of it.
It's very much nothing like the book series, yet still enjoyable to watch. If they made it like the book's it would have droll and slow. Since the Dune redo was more artistic than an action flick, I found the Foundation series more engaging.
Stopped watching halfway through the season. I am an Asimov fan and read the foundation series twice.
I could not stand this series. It was awful. Not just the fact that this has nothing to do with the book, but also because the internal logic of the series was total garbage. The characters were very badly written, very stereotypical. I want nothing to do with this. It is a missed chance.
I give it 10/10
4/10. And that was only because of the Cleon's and Harris as Seldon. The rest had absolutely nothing to do with the books.
abomination and insult to Isaac Asimov and sci-fi, this show is kinda worst than even the recent star wars movies
This show sucks. Demerzel kills? Violation of 3 laws of robotics is a spit in Asimov's face. And everything feels dumbed down in comparison to the book.
they ruined salvor hardin completely
This series deserves more than a 7.4 rating.
Sorry, as a fan of the books, i generally hated this series a lot. Writing was not good. I did not care about any of these characters. Too bad.
So many lens flares. Why? 🙁
The visuals were pretty amazing and the genetic dynasty plot addition was a great thematic idea. But beyond that, in my opinion, Asimovs vision sort of gets lost in action-y space opera trope land. The show fails (nay, it refuses) to adequately represent the passage of huge lapses in time, and is riddled instead with far too convenient coincidences and contrievances. Psychohistory comes across as pseudoreligion ("So hard to prove it might as well have been a prayer") and logic takes a backseat to misticism (constant visions). I liked anything with Hardin (except her silly haircut), but Gaal specifically was totally overacted or perhaps badly written in the first place.
The disrespect the showrunner has towards Asimov...
It was horrible
I like The TV series however I still haven't read the books so I don't really no from there but I think I like it I like it a lot more than I like Star Wars. And I didn't think that that girl was too much of a Mary Sue I just thought it was a little bit weird that she knew how to do math all of a sudden. But whatever I could suspend disbelief
Thank you for not titling this video "Season one explained" 😉
Salvor's parentage was a reveal to you? That was obvious to me since the character was introduced 😅
I think I was a little slow on this one 😂
well, its disapointeeng
poor caracters, poor writing, "sjwadad++++" mess. U say what its intartaning... whith what? Whith boring dialogs? whith "strong" caracters
What's "intartaning"?
And could you please proofread after yourself before you post anything up next time?
Everything Woke turns to shit... Funny that all the good Charaters are boring and 2D.. but the Evils like Empire where really good.. still have hopes... for this show i can be really good...
Of course the woman is labeled a Mary Sue 😂 If this was a guy nobody would have been saying anything 😅
I don’t understand how there aren’t more channels covering this series. It was an awesome incredible visual series. And although it’s not ground breaking in the dialogue, it is still compelling. It is a very fun and interesting universe. The interstellar travel is very cool and the sets are very striking. I really cannot wait to see the second season. I do think they could have also dug into the characters more. Although I feel like they would probably lose out on visual beauty if they were able to stretch out the seasons to more episodes but damn I do wish there were more episodes per season and more time to flesh out the characters. Still being what it is, I really do love it.
Gail doesn’t have any flaws? She’s stubborn as hell. She has problems following orders even when she’s working with people she seems to have the same basic goals with. How is it that she has no flaws. Yes it’s a bit unrealistic for her to be a math genius, and a precog. But she’s naive in many ways, always had to do things her own way even when it could cause detriment to people around her, she’s also running away from a situation just because she’s upset at the way things unfolded rather then making the best of it. All those things seem like flaws. Flaws don’t have to be infidelity, substance abuse, narcissism, or blatant bad guy things. They can be more nuanced and slight. Not every person has to be an exact example of the perfect character. Especially when the rest of it was executed pretty well already.
Gaal could become the mule
🤔😱💀
@@Sci-FiOdyssey I mean Hari said it himself, that her metallic powers would ruin his plans, its a theory, maybe they will stay loyal to the source material