Foundation Episodes 1-2 Review: Beautiful and Epic but Flawed... (Spoilers)
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- Опубліковано 23 вер 2021
- Hello Guys. Here is my review of the first two episodes of Apple Tv's brand new Foundation show! Heads up, SPOILERS in this review!
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*Every production company:*
Let's adapt a beloved book series!
*Also every production company:*
Let's rewrite the entire story.
Have to dump it down for people who don't like Scifi.
@@LOUDMOUTHTYRONE Which unfortunately usually means making it a romance of some type.
Just finished and thought it was amazing
@@stevetobin7495 I just finished it and I thought it was so meh it was meh. I did like the original storyline following the emperors. The actual Foundation storyline on Terminus and so on, was just incredibly lame. In fact, it was just stupid and poorly written. It was the antithesis of Asimov’s story. What can’t people make a decent adaptation of popular books?
it feels like the show writers didn’t read the book or didn’t understand it so they use cliff notes and fill in the blanks with their own ideas. seems like Rings of Power had the same problem two and both of these shows have amazing CGI , i just feel bad for all the artists and behind the scenes workers. All their hard work flushed down the toilet cuz of a couple of incompetent writers.
Quinn: Does there always have to be mass executions?"
God Emperor Duke Leto II: "Yes. The Golden Path is a cruel and painful path. We must shake humanity from its comfort and complacency and compel it to thrive independently. Trillions have died in my name. Entire planets have been eradicated to ensure humanity's survival. If I am to be the villain of this story to prepare humanity, so be it."
Maybe that's what Bush 2.0 had in mind when he and Dick Cheney started WW3...?
@@stevenjones6780 Nah, the Bush 2.0 era was fueled by two things: Ego at not being able to not remove Saddam during 1.0, and Greed by having companies that Cheney and Co. could make by giving companies they owed stock in ludicrous amounts of no-bid contracts.
@@stevenjones6780 I'm sure that's it, programmed one.
@@raithnor6007 Yes, but things like ego and greed are most always pawns in a much bigger game.
@@stevenjones6780 WW3? I think you have a rose-tinted view of what WW3 is going to be like
My dad was the biggest fan of the Foundation novels. Anything by Asimov, really. He had suggested I read Foundation for years, and I never got around to it while he was alive. He passed away in this past March, and all I could think about was that I never read Foundation. So I gathered the ones he had, bought the ones he didn’t, and read em all May through July. It was kinda like my final conversation with him. I took all of July to read the last one because I didn’t want the conversation to end. While the show looks and feels very different from what I imagined while reading the books, I’m enjoying it, and I leave a seat open next to me while I watch it.
God bless you all.
That is so sweet
May he rest in peace
Bravo man!!!
Similar situation-have nearly the whole Foundation book series after my Grandfather died who apparently was a big fan of Asimov’s works
Every so often in the comments you find a gem like this. Thank you for sharing!
I love the Dawn/Dusk/Day idea, splitting the emperor into characters that can have dialogue was genius. How else to communicate that the emperor doesn't necessarily want to be such a jerk, but the need to project strength compels him?
and how else to keep a cast across more than a couple episodes than to keep cloning them
@@dguisinger Yeah, having the same faces in Foundation and Empire will make it personal!
Yeah I liked that change too.
Yeah, I think that was a good move. It should hopefully pay off as (if) it progresses beyond the first season. I also hope Hari Seldon doesn't just leave time release messages, but a full AI simulation of himself that interacts.
that was stolen from celtic mythology! Brigid - queen/godess of spring,AINE summer queen/godess,The Cailleach - winter queen/godess.
9:00 - yeah exactly, the books weren't really centered on the character, but rather on the big picture and most characters in the books were also more "normal", like in the show Gaal is this rebel genius teenager who somehow learns math despite being from a world where science is banned basically while in the books Gaal is a regular person with a degree in math. I feel like the books had this vibe of no one really being that special, people come leave their mark on the world and go, after that we go on to see how the next generation is doing and how they've built on the work done by the previous generation. Point is that nobody felt like the main character.
Don't know how they could ever make this into a tv series though. The format and the way we currently approach it as consumers relies heavily, sometimes almost exclusively on the main character(s). Unless they didn't care about not making money, they could never adapt that aspect of the books.
@@paokalexthes when i say "main character" i mean the tropes that usually surround the character, like them being exceptional and unique somehow or being the chosen one if that makes sense. I am not familiar with all of the books, but in the ones i read the character were more or less regular people, they might be of high status of highly skilled, but they were not teenage geniuses from backwater planets with dramatic backstory. From the few episodes i watched the show feels like a YA novel for some reason.
@@NoName-ym5zj yeah I'm reffering to those as well, giving unexceptionality to your characters would suck some of what drives audiences back. You are right about how most of them are in the books, but the series would be very uninteresting to watch.
They would have to make the characters interesting in different ways (like exploring their psyche?) but that is one of the hardest things to do in storytelling I believe.
@@paokalexthes i don't see how it would be uninteresting, there are plenty of movies where main characters don't fit into YA tropes ( let's call it that for simplicity sake), more than that i think it's much more interesting to see how a regular person overcomes a difficult situation than someone with extraordinaire abilities, also it's much easier for audiences to relate with a more or less regular person. Having extraordinaire abilities is not what makes character interesting or good, their personality and motivations is what really counts. A good example from game of thrones series: Daenerys vs Ned Stark - sure it's my personal opinion, but i think Ned Stark was a much better and more interesting character than Daenerys ( at least in the show) despite him not being anything that special, he had no dragons or "special" lineage or anything like that, he was just a good man forced into political intrigue that he never wanted to be a part of and did what he thought was right to protect his land and his family.
But in any case, i think you are right in the end. Maybe if the producers were ready to take risks and try something new, they could be more faithful to the books and make something new, fresh and interesting, but this is not the case.
@@banhammer3904 I agree with you
Yes. It's the difference between dramatizing a book and using a book as inspiration to express one's own idea of what is entertaining.
The problem is that Hollywood writing these days is so juvenile that it can't live up to the complexity and depth of real authors.
But then again Asimov’s character development in Foundation is non existent
What makes those people think that they have the talent to change so much of a classic story?
It always blows my mind how much producers and show writers just use the material without respecting it.
So many people have read the books.
These people are payed so much. If someone payed me to re-write Foundation, the first thing would be to make sure that my result is faithful to the original.
To get that I understand that you need to simplify the source material for TV, but shouldn't you tell the same story? The things I would change need to serve some purposes, not just to add my own ideas. Not just change this or that up for no reason, just because I think it would be cool or make for a fun fight. Not just gender swapping the best characters. I didn't care about Gaal, but R.Daneel, come on.
I bet Denis is going to produce the Dune movies better than anyone ever imagined. Looking forward to Quinn’s opinions.
@@cab88888 I generally agree but, as was mentioned, the characters generally only have basic details about them demographically, so you really could cast just about anyone and it "shouldn't" change the overall plot and theme. I disagree that Asimov didn't care about his characters, just that a lot of classic science fiction was used to express ideas, the characters simply being mediums to that end. But at that, yeah, I otherwise totally agree that corporate hired writers aren't trying to do what would be right by that core concept, because the best fiction tasks us with challenging our own ideas and expanding our minds. This goes against especially profit driven entertainment theory which sees this as turning people off and lost capital, so we keep getting classics forced to be shoehorned into what they think will make money over what would be true to the source. I can't stand Nu Trek for much the same reason.
@@azuretiger-kfpmarketingstr6018 Yeah I mean, let's see how Dune does, but I feel doing a faithful adaptation has its fair share of personal choices to make already, but when you make people feel like they are reliving a good book, I think respecting the source material as much as possible is something to appreciate, and that will withstand the test of time much better in my opinion.
This week I have seen Villeneuve's Dune, and now the Foundation.. Foundation is my favorite SciFi books of all time, and Dune is my second favorite. Must say, comparatively Villeneuve is vision is more inline with my perception on the books. Whereas, Foundation is more freely "inspired" by Asimov.. but you nailed it Foundation isn't about a specific character beside the aura of Hari Seldon but more the observation of the conservation of a species and the fall of a galactic civilization and the plot twists and the genius of Seldon's psychohistory.
Nonetheless the show is entertaining enough, though not at the level of Dune adaptation for sure.
I have watched both this week as well, and I feel the exact opposite. I read the Dune books, and not the Foundation books, and I kind of expected the Dune movie to be more up my alley. But I was very disappointed by its lack of depth and exposition and the cringe-level dialogues that are wordy but explain nothing, in particular from Duncan, Kynes and Stilgar. I felt great disappointment at the test scene, where nothing was revealed about the Bene Gesserit. No interaction between Piter and the Baron, barely anything from Mohiam, and nothing from Thufir either. I didn't feel any emotional attachment to the characters and didn't care when they died. After the movie finished I felt confused and didn't remember anything memorable. I was quite depressed that that was it. With the Foundation episodes I felt the opposite, I knew nothing about the setting but it did the exposition in an epic way, with the dialogues conveying enough information to know what was going on and who has what kind of personality, as well as speculate into their motives and future actions. Foundation totally managed to get rid of the bad taste in my mouth that was the new Dune movie.
@@Shakkarathar That's your opinion and total respect to that. I believe Dune is not a movie for everyone and every fan.
Read the foundation books and you will understand why as an adaptation it is disappointing. But I understand the complexity of adapting it into a tv show, since Foundation isn't character centric in its narrative structure almost sometimes a documentary style with a 3rd person point of view
Dune is lacking a lot of backgrounds and lore definitely, but it was already 2h30 just for the 1st half. A good rule of thumb is reading time divided by 3 should be the duration of the movie without significant cut ( Lords of the Ring extended version last 3h30 and books reading time is about 10 to 12 hours...)
I knew from the duration of the movie that we would suffer cut....
Foundation is to be 10h for 3 books I think it covers the prime trilogy not the additional books afterwards.
Nonetheless, I find it entertaining though not really faithfull to the books.
Dune is more faithfull though it is carving out of lot details from the Dune lore nerds like me love. But If I ask myself what is the essential thing I want people to take away from the 1st movie, I would have pretty much made the same cuts. I believe Dune could have been better suited for a high budget TV Series rather than a movie (not the low budget but very faithfull TV series we have seen on Syfy)
Where did you see Dune? Didn’t think it was coming out till late next month.
@@angryox3102 I’m based in France where it’s been released to theaters since September 15th.
Golan Trevize is a major character . And R. Daneel Olivaw, Bel Riose, Arkadi Darell- there are more than a few main characters, I think 🤔…
I must say, your critique on these first two episodes was spot-on. I would like to add that when Gaal rides the space elevator down to Trantor we are informed that the journey will last many, many hours; I can't recall exactly how many - but when we witness the suicide bombing it seems as if the whole catastrophe takes much less time - about the same time as (and I apologise now to any victims of…) the collapse of the World Trade Centre twin towers. Surely if it takes over 20 hours to get down there in comfort, it will take a similar amount of time to fall down there - assuming gravity affects a ton of lead the same as an ounce of lead.
Good observation lol. They would've had time to evacuate at least the path of the space elevator
Thank you for:
A. A solid critical review
B. Addressing the source material
C. Your killer fedora and geometry polo
D. Being an interesting and engaging presence on UA-cam
Do you still have the puppy?
Indeed, he mentioned it last video (eating the mic' )
Contrary to others UA-camrs, he's just not using his pet to get easy low hanging views...🍃
Totally agree with all of your points! Quinn's Ideas is one of the most fascinating UA-cam channels. I really enjoy the perspective.
With you on these points.... C doubly so .
@@ChristmasLore I remember, now!! D'oh!
@@ChristmasLore I demand to see the puppy.
I have watched the 1st episode and since I read the trilogy in the 1960's when I was a teenager, I confess that I don't remember the minutia. I did like the visuals but I thought that the suicide bombers were a bit off since that, if I remember correctly, didn't happen there. Foundation spanning centuries in a TV show has to be flawed. We have to accept that hopefully the show will give us good story from which Asimov could smile and give us a wink.
The entire Gaal story line in show vs books
@@janicelee4534 I don’t care about the demographic swaps since there was nothing inherently masculine or feminine about the characters involved, and since the most pressing racial issue in the story is mild academic curiosity about why there are Westerners, Easterners, and Southerners in the galaxy but no Northerners.
I’m also trying very hard not to do the whole “They changed the source material, therefore it sucks” thing. The problem is, the new elements they’re bringing in seem to be getting all the buildup at the expense of the story elements that actually come from the books. (Though to be fair, that’s nothing new for Foundation; even Asimov’s own prequels and sequels pretty much jettisoned the central premise of the original in favor of fluff.) It’s true that it seems as though they’re just taking the names of people and places from the source material and applying them something completely different. If that’s all they’re doing I wish they’d just made an original series; Foundation went nearly eighty years without a screen adaptation, there was no need to end that streak just for this.
Could be worse though. For the longest time, Roland Emerich was the one who controlled the film rights.
@@aperson22222 it’s disrespectful to the authors vision to change characters like that. Just because we don’t think there’s a reason for a particular characters gender isn’t a good reason to change it. We may not know why a character is male or female, but the author chose to make them what they are.
@@janicelee4534 Wait, they bent Hardin too? Goddamnit.
Asimov would never endorse woke bullcrap like this!
Sounds like the show runners don't trust Asimov to be compelling on his own. Shame.
They are trying to make it more personal I believe.
The original foundation trilogy was first published as a bunch of loosely connected short stories in a monthly magazine. Later they were compiled into the book series we know as the Foundation trilogy. However: The original magazine format doesn't work the way a series on streaming service at all. When they were published, readers couldn't just binge them. Asimov had to write with readers in mind that either hadn't read the previous at all or so long ago they didn't remember a lot of the minute details. That is not how modern story-telling works. On streaming services people don't have to wait an entire month for the next episode. In fact: A lot of people will binge entire seasons after all episodes premiered instead of waiting a week between episodes. Being true to Asimov's original work would go against the expectations of modern audiences, so some adaptations to modern tastes seem inevitable. At least they didn't try to create "Foundation - the musical"...
I'm new to this work and having taken in the shows and now going through the books, I can understand what they are doing. They pitched a series duration of eight seasons and they're signed for two. That being said, the IA Estate has granted the rights to the Foundation series and the idea of a thousand year F.E. has also been blessed by the estate; so that's kinda neat. Here's the problem, compressing that much information into eighty episodes. I'll buy that almost every character in the show is a composite of individuals from the book, but let's also be honest that they're having fun with the budget. However, I'm new here and I gotta tell you, they sold the story through the visuals and the eye candy is just as enjoyable as the words in the pages!
That appears to be true of most directors these days who adapt famous and popular literary works to film. They obviously don't really believe that these stories can stand on their own without embellishment -- but if they don't believe that these stories are good enough to keep audience interest as they are (even though the books have managed to stay in print for decades!), then why bother filming them at all?
There are times when I want to shriek at these people "if you're convinced you can do so much better than the original author, then why don't you write your own damn book and turn it into a film instead of rewriting someone else's book?"
It was serviceable. Looked beautiful. It made me miss B-rated Syfy or other scifi shows that had more soul even if the production value was lacking.
It's not a B rated syfy. It's A...but it's a lacking A.
I wish Syfy would go back at it and start cranking out new shows again
@@Ben-rz9cf right...there'd be more money in it for them because people would actually be engaged and interested....and exceited.
Yup. Foundation show sucks. No feel, no soul, bland acting, generic characters that you don't care for and wouldn't care or probably notice if they're about to die in the next scene. It's just so bland, has no feel, doesn't draw you in, doesn't make you forget about the real world around you as you're drawn into the story the characters and the world...It does none of that. Budget aside, the SciFi Dune (including Children of Dune) absolutely destroys the Foundation show.
The Expanse...the best
Raych was in the books, starting in Prelude to Foundation. This show takes some serious liberties, not all of which I'm happy with.
So far it feels like they're trying to make an action/suspense show instead of the thought provoking story it originally was. I'm certainly not enjoying it as much as I enjoyed Dune, which is sad because I was more excited for Foundation.
Exactly, he was in the books, he was like Hari's adoptive son.
Anyway I don't understand why they didn't start with Prelude to Foundation, because that story seems much easier for TV adaptation and it even has a strong female character of its own, so they wouldn't have to change the sex of other characters.
@@dominikaaeriar Might be that each book costs a certain amount to license the rights to make a movie/show, so they decided to grab the big one while they had the chance instead of spending a lot on the entire series. Not sure though.
But yes, Prelude would have been a great start. I always loved that book.
yep, same period and made me think about Dors Venabili, too.
She is Daneel Olivaw. I new it the second the rock hit her and her blood was a clear fluid. Incidentally in 1991, when my wife was in labor, I was reading Caves of Steel that introduces the Olivaw robot and my wife asked me what we wanted to name the baby and I said how about Daniel. So our third child's name was inspired by this robot character.
One final point, given the level of technology in this series one would think that the general level of mathematical understanding would be a heck of a lot higher. In other words, there shouldn't be only two people who get the math.
In the source material, we get frequent examples of how technical knowledge has receded. It's easy to find people who know how to maintain old technology, but those who actually understand how it works are quite rare, and those who might be capable of innovating based on it and improving the state of the art, rarer still. So old devices tend to be more reliable, more powerful, more efficient and all around more useful than newer ones. When a machine breaks down, whoever's responsible for it usually looks for ways to accommodate the reality of reduced output rather than try to replace it. This is one of the warning signs of the Empire's degeneracy that everyone but Seldon and his team miss.
Of course, that's in the source material, and so is unlikely to factor into the show.
@@fabriziopedani5315 Unless the ship was traveling at relativistic speeds? Yeah, I don’t believe it either.
Watching the Star Bridge bombing and collapse I was reminded of being a teenager and watching the Twin Towers burning then collapsing on TV (I was 17 in 2001). And the executions and punishment attacks reminded me of the anger people felt in the months after and the wars launched in Afghanistan and Iraq in response to it. Not saying that the show creators were trying to say something about our own recent history, more trying to show how a powerful state or Empire overreacts when suddenly attacked in a way that damages the belief in their power and authority.
Which also seems to be a part of the modern interpretation of major powers declining.
I think the US Empire is actually to fall like the Galactic Empire. It's already written in the stars. You can see it in the internal wars between GOP and DEM followers which destroys unity and only serves the interest of the few 1% ultra rich. The whole self-destruction accelerates because of global heating and climate chaos.
I think that is precisely what the writers had in mind...
@@stevenjones6780 Ditto
Overreaction ??! I get Iraq that was just W wanting revenge on Sadam and oil contracts.... But Afghanistan was justified where we went off the rails there was to try to bring Western Civilization to a backward primitive people.... It aint happening never has never will, we should have just destroyed them and installed a king or warlord and left 18 years ago... Then Xiden really put the screws in HOW we left....Smfh.
Space Elevator destruction seemed like it was from Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy (I highly recommend btw).
I thought the same thing.
Same here. Was disappointed it didn’t wrap around more than once. However they really captured the damage well. The whole concept of bodies continuing to re-enter and burn up was haunting.
Ha, just commented on that!
Also happens (spoiler) in Chasm City by Alastair Reynolds. I also highly recommend that.
I’d say they were always looking for a show to put a space elevator in. Also, obvious political Sept. 11th reference. Confirmed (both) by creator on the official Apple TV Foundation Podcast (episode 1).
An adaption of Foundation almost has to take liberties. As you noted, the books aren't really about characters. They're about institutions, with a narrative that spans centuries. But a TV show has to be told on a human timescale in order to be engaging. Asimov's books leave a lot of narrative space to be fleshed out. I'm glad to hear that so far, the show hasn't deviated from the spirit of the books. If they can maintain that, I'll forgive a lot of the necessary liberties they have to take with characters and human-scale plots.
It hasn't deviated from the spirit, but it's not engaging with the source material in any essential way. In Ep 1 the events of "The Psychohistorians" are depicted relatively faithfully, but they feel like a subplot. And almost none of Ep 2's run time has anything to do with the books at all.
@@aperson22222 This is to be expected though. If it stuck strictly to Asimov’s narrative and wooden characters, it would make for pretty boring television. They have to tell a human-scale story and give characters something to do besides sit around and discuss ideas.
@@BoboftheOldeWays I know it’s a very difficult balance to strike but they’ve gone too far in the other direction. Change a few character and place names-and not even that many-and the second episode is completely unrelated to Asimov. If that’s what they wanted to do they should have just made a different show.
@@aperson22222 There is no way anyone can make a TV adaptation of Foundation without having episodes and plots with nothing to do with Asimov. There simply is not enough character work or human-scale plot in Asimov’s books to sustain that. The Foundation series isn’t about characters, it’s about ideas and institutions over centuries. It can’t be adapted to movies or TV with any degree of close accuracy. Unless you want someone to make a future history mockumentary. The material was always going to have to have been fleshed out with brand-new non-Asimov stuff.
@@BoboftheOldeWays As I said, a difficult balance to strike. But I don’t believe they’re even trying. Sure there was always going to be original original storytelling, but it didn’t have to be so completely divorced from the source material, and it didn’t have to take over this early.
I've just seen the first two episodes, and to be honest, I didn't have particularly large problems with how they had extrapolated the story until the very end of the second episode. I am not going to share details, because spoilers and all, but I really don't see the point of all this. I guess additional drama, as focusing on politics only probably looked dull to the showrunner, but still, I really must ask - why?
Regarding Seldon's adopted son, Raych, he is actually in the books, but only in the ones that were written last, namely "Prelude to Foundation" and "Forward the Foundation". He was some Trantor orphan who helped Seldon in "Prelude the Foundation" and as a result Seldon and his wife adopted him. A few minor spoilers to episode 2 - I guess they have decided to merge Raych's wife with Gaal Dornik, which is not a very gross deviation, in my opinion. I am curious whether they will keep the plot from "Forward the Foundation" and have Seldon's granddaughter play the same role.
All in all, I don't get the same feel from the TV series as I did from the book. I have always expected this to be the case, so I am not surprised. I suppose I will need to see more of the series before I get a final verdict, but so far this is mostly inspired by the books rather than trying to follow the book plot closely. I did seem some positive reviews from critics who have seen more, so this gives me some hope. Thus, the series may turn out to be good, just very different from the books, which is not necessarily bad. In short, the jury is still out on this one.
I think they are merging Gaal with Seldon's grandaughter. The granddaughter have mental powers, and it seems they are going to giver Gaal mental powers.
@@TentaclePentacle
It's a way of keeping Gaal in the show.
They have taken the books and pretty much ditched some of the most important themes from the start.
In the books Trantor is dull industrial impenetrable bureaucratic monstrosity representing a winding down empire that is slowly crushing under its own weight. Gaal arrives in orbit and is not even allowed to see the planet from orbit. In the series she gets to watch an exciting light show for almost a day as she descended.
In the books the point is that empire is collapsing imperceptibly slowly and nobody has many reasons to think everything is not going well. This was one of the main themes throughout the series. In the empire the collapse was not obvious long after Seldon's time.
In the series we are immediately shown major signs of decay and imminent upheaval. There is no need for psychohistory for everyone to understand that things are rotten and that the empire is obviously in a weak vulnerable position.
It's a disjoint nicely filmed and polished mess.
Yeah, that terrorist attack felt like a hamfisted attempt to garner some 9/11 parallels. Sorry America, you ain’t the Galactic Empire just cuz you got a couple of rich dudes into space. 😂🤣😂
@@georginatoland I mean a 9/11 happening in the series is warranted, Just not in the first episode. That scene truly shocked me since it wasn't warranted at that point in time. I thought everything was supposed to be all peachy with only Seldon and Gaal being in the know of the empire's decline
@@janicelee4534 indeed the horrible woke agenda nonsense is making a poor adaption almost unwatchable.
@@janicelee4534 Gaal in the books was an extremely generic and one-dimensional character, this tv version isn't amazing or anything yet, but still easily as interesting as the book version.
The gender swaps and little changes could pass well, especially given Asimov, especially when writting the first stories (Foundation was a series of small stories originally, only put as a book years after first released and Asimov was young, not really prone to writte individual characters) but the changes done to the story are too big. I have not read the books wrote depicting the immediate prequel (the ones not written by Asimov, by the way) but the series totally differ from the books right off the bat. The Empire was not Evil or menacing, just tired and lost in bureaucracy. Trantor was never attacked literally until 300 years after the beginning of the Fall. Anacreon was a rich Province, but far from Imperial Control and actually already far from Trantor grips already on Seldon's time, only a Province by name almost. Gravitics were never a tech known to humans, being an immense advance reached by the Foundation 500 years after Seldon's time, and an immense trump of Foundation forces. Never a Robot War occurred, and R. Daneel Olivaw made sure humans kept away from robots, as part of his guiding plan. Cleon was not evil, not even an adult, and the Empire was ruled by his Caretakers. Hyperdrive was the way to go, only taking time as ships needed to correct course for hyperjumps...never Jumpships were there on Imperial era. Spacers...the real Spacers were humans from the First Colonies, forgotten by the Empire and kept secret by Daneel for over 12.000 years of Imperial History and even before Trantor rise as a Galactic force...Spacers on that jumpship was... weird. And not Asimov Spacers...for the name was only due being the first colonizers...and they were actually hermits bound to their properties, not space faring drivers. Well...the series I hope is good, being entertaining so far, but it is very loosely "based" on Foundation...not an adaptation.
I don’t think they’re setting up a “chosen one” narrative, but I do think Gaal is a mentalic. They have to set up the second foundation some how, and Raych doesn’t have a mentalic child (like in Forward the Foundation). They’ll have to expand on mentalics and the Mule somehow
This was my first thought also.
Completely agree. I am super curious who they pick to play the Mule. Incredible casting on Seldon, some of the others I'm less impressed by, so fingers crossed for the Mule.
I mean it should be pretty obvious that she is a mentalic, there is a reason why she had premonitions and her relationship with Raych will imo produce a child (I think she is pregnant with his child) which then will be related to the Mule. My bet is on the child being a later character who is going to be a counter to the mule and that this is going to be part of Seldon's plan. That's why the relationship between Gaal and Raych isn't just an accident, Seldon knew about Gaals mentalic gift (genetic potential) and maybe Raych has it too (the reason he adopted him) and thus a child between those two has the potential to be a counter to the Mule later on, maybe it's even imagined as part of the Second Foundation.
I know that Seldon didn't see the Mule itself coming in the books but imo I wouldn't mind a deviation in this case, he can still be wrong about other things. Another possibility here is that Seldon's own actions might lead to the Mule instead of the outcome he had in mind.
And yeah it should be obvious that Raych didn't murder Seldon. Seldon wanted to die, there are plenty of hints in the episode, ie the way people treat him like a celebrity which he clearly isn't comfortable with and he also comments on the fact that he didn't expect to even make it this far himself...
@@LinkesAuge perhaps their child is gonna be a psychologist of the second foundation.
@@LinkesAuge I'm less sure I'd like Seldon to see the Mule coming.
The whole of Asimov's works are constantly a challenge to his own philosophy, it's part of what makes him brilliant. It's especially clear in his robot stories, where he basically creates scenarios to challenge his Laws.
The Mule is really meant to be a test of Psychohistory, it's a question of whether 1 incredibly "talented" and unseen variable can upset the plans, because if it can, then psychohistory can be shown to be false, because now individual things do matter.
Star Trek Discovery being too shiny is the least of its problems.
Discovery was Alienating?
just come out and admit it you don't like women....
@@tgwaste what if you're an obese guy and when you look down all you can see are a huge pair of tits?
@@tgwaste ‘I know right? What happened to the Star Trek shows that didn’t tackle social, political, and economic concepts; bigotry, autocracy, capitalist greed, gender and sexuality? The TOS episode with the black/white humanoids certainly wasn’t about color-ism and systemic racism.’
Seriously, have you never seen any Star Trek series?? Do you not know that the franchise is SOFT science-fiction (social and political science) as opposed to hard sci-fi (genetics, mathematics, quantum physics)?
@@Ma55ey I love the strong diverse cast in discovery. Doesn't stop it from being an absolute dogshit show with terrible, overly dramatic hack writing, uninspiring direction and inappropriate cinematography. Portraying critics of discovery as anti-sjw manchildren who only hate it because of women is lazy and intellectually dishonest. Good Star Trek can certainly be peachy, but it still needs some thoughtful introspection and ethical nuance which STD has none of
Thank you for your review. I've been reading and listening to Asimov's Robot and Foundation books on continuous loop for years. I'm very glad someone picked up this material and I'm glad this show was made. Despite all that, I can't help but notice that certain things are off. And it is unfortunate that too much is attempted in the series. It's unfortunate, because it didn't have to be. There's plenty to cover.
And you're absolutely right when you say that Asimov himself was often not very careful in the construction of his characters. The emphasis is on social developments. That fits, because Asimov describes psychohistory several times as a science that is a mixture of mathematics and sociology.
- SPACER and ROBOTS
1, During Cleon's time, spacer and robots are buried so deep in the past (about 20,000 years) that you have to follow Seldon through an entire prequel book to see him find out that Demerzel is a robot And even then it is still kept a secret to everyone but Dors.
2. And in search of spacer worlds, Golan Trevize is also on quite a few worlds before he finds their last descendants.
3. That Demerzel (or R. Daneel Olivaw) openly shows her being a robot in front of Emperor Dawn, and that spacer prepare humans for hyperspace jumps, just feels wrong.
-SPACETRAVEL:
Aside from the mercenary princes, I can't find anyone in the books who needs to fly anywhere for any length of time either. In all of Asimov's books, starting with the invention of hyperspace jump technology in "Nemesis," interstellar travel is only possible in jumps. In order to jump (accurately), one must first move away from large centers of mass (planets and suns) using conventional propulsion. That's the whole idea of interstellar flight according to Asimov. it's not possible without jumps.
Romance? WTF?!?
And as a final content point, I have a question: why do they (Gaal&Raych) have to start making out with each other. If a show wants me to sympathize with a character, I need to know what they're thinking and feeling, what drives them and what scares them. Snogging just wastes air time unnecessarily that could have been filled with relevant content.
-DESIGN
+ I think the Empire emblem of the Sun and Starship is very well done. As it should be, it is instantly recognizable on a uniform or on the side of a vehicle.
- The fact that they put a lot of effort into the Foundation lettering is also great. However, I have to close my eyes in frustration every time because they forgot to turn the letter F backwards. As confirmed by Janov Pelorat on Alpha at the end of Foundation and Earth.
PS: The Idea of the Emperor cloning himself is not in the books and it is definitely a stroke of genius. It is such a strong symbol of the inertia in which the Empire (person and reach) are chained.
Sorry, I was planing to say more nice things. I really am happy this series exists.
I was very excited for foundation, but I felt strangely hollow afterwards. Then I looked at the writers/producers and their filmography and now my expectations are close to rock bottom for the rest of the series. When the showrunner is responsible for drek like superman vs batman, you know disappointment is almost guaranteed
Ditto
Tbf, Goyer has got some half decent work in his resume. Its really just of late that he's been attached some duds.
Couple of things I noticed: the characters were pretty empty, much like Asimov, as you mentioned. If the actors read the books to get an idea of their characters, wouldn't have gotten much. The scene were Gaal into her hotel room, the look and framing reminded me of the opening to Ghost In The Shell, when the Major wakes up. Lastly, as per Asimov's inspiration, they are trying to show a decadent empire, like the Roman Empire before it fell.
I think what we all wanted was: stick to the book but flesh out the characters. Not add fluf, race-swap actors, just copy the book but add depth to each character like Asimov, couldn't or wouldn't! But this being said, we have to acknowledge that this is the curent year, where politics and making a statement (even re-writing the story to make yourself a career out of it) is the norm in the book/manga to tv-show industry :(
The characters are absolutely terrible. Characters backstories are almost completely left out, there is no actual development happening on screen. The first episode alone seems like an extremely shortened version of a much longer story. Terribly edited and paced out too. Hated it.
Hari Seldon is the only character from the book. Others may share names with book characters, but so little else that a meaningful comparison isn’t possible.
agreed. characters are what ultimately will make a show successful or not and I feel there's so little focus on this and more on storyline (time) and visual. I didn't really feel a connection or rooting for any of the characters.
@@out_spocken
It's a problem.
The characters in the series aren't very interesting (it's more about the ideas) and also it covers 1000 years so they'll keep being replaced.
Doesn't bother me (I liked the books) but probably will limit audience size
I think the reason it feels generic is because everyone has been borrowing from Asimov’s work for decades, so everything that was groundbreaking when he originally wrote it has been done to death by a thousand cheap knockoffs
But this is not following the books... It is following more what you can find in any other scifi series. Booms, bangs and intrigue and cruelty... Nothing worn, nothing to do with Foundation books...
@@haukionkannel Have to see if they stay more with the political science once they get to Terminus.
Star Wars Episode 2, a young Anakin Sywalker arrives to the capital world of the Empire, one of the pilots tells him about it: " Coruscant, the whole world is a city ", obviously that world is Trantor. There's no dubt that this kind of science fiction books inspired cinema for decades, now, watching certain things here, looks like copies of modern movies, when it's just the opposite.
Bingo. Haven't read the first three books since the early 1970s. Because of that , while watching the first two episodes, I was often unsure whether a scene or event was conformant to book canon, but I think that the overall ("high level") thrust of the story was reasonably faithful to the book. None of the issues I had were of the "oh no, that's not what Azimov wrote" type, even though I know that some of the show's content was "not what Azimov wrote." The biggest changes were either the additional characters and/or events, or the time sequence order in which the audience was shown the story.
I liked it enough that I've decided to continue watching. So far, I'd say it's much better than I had feared, and much better in relation to the book "Foundation" than Lynch's 1984 Dune movie was in relation to the book "Dune." But it's not LOTR movie quality. Or at least, not yet.
I liked the first episode better than the second one.
Well said...
Definitely glad I found this channel. My wife and I need a break from this alternate universe we somehow entered recently. This channel is my go to for chill content.
thanks for this review- I haven't read the books it's good to know of how the text is being adapted. At 15:00 that was my fav part of the show too! I felt it really related to the world we live in and what is archived, what is deemed worthy of preservation and who gets to decide.
Quinn's description of these episodes makes this sound like an absolutely ridiculous series of novels to attempt to adapt as a TV show! Shows require a cohesive narrative with a core cast of characters that doesn't (for the most part) change.
Elija Bailey and Hari Seldon are recurring characters. They appear in 3 novels each.
I won't ever see this series but it seems to me that it would need to end up like a series of short stories. The characters change and time marches on.
Doctor Who and even Altered Carbon. It can be done.
You are wrong.
@@bemersonbakebarmen But Hari as a hologram.
Speaking of Dune-like elements-they added guild navigators.
What?
@@dr.redacted4492 I was referring to the spacers. I know a group of people with that name existed in Asimov’s books, here they seem to play a more guild-like role. Augmented humans who are essential to space flight.
@@adamkeener4823 interesting
Honestly the idea of something mixing influences and ideas from foundation and dune doesn't sound entirely bad to me...
@@adamkeener4823 Ah, do you refer to the androids who tend to the unconscious humans on the jumps through space-time?
As usual a very fair and balanced review. Very helpful. You articulated a lot of my mixed reactions to it not that I’m hyper critical as you were not also just placing your finger on what was less than original and detracted somewhat from the impact of watching it. Still it’s growing on me the acting is excellent and production quality top notch. I’m hanging in there with it. Thankyou for great job on your perspective.
Your commentary is spot-on, Quinn. Well done!
10:19 The guy character is in the books; his name is Raych Seldon and he was the adopted son of Hari with Dors Vernabilli...
I knew this because I went back to the Wikipedia articles after watching to recall the things that happened in the novels, I wouldn't have remembered either if I didn't revisit the Wiki articles (or, better yet but which I didn't, re-read the novels)...
they actually did Raych justice, they gave him knives as weapons. Which is in the books, he is supposed to be good with knives.
I see your points. I have more gripes, e.g. with the characters, but overall I liked it. Kept me on my feet, kept me guessing. It feels like the impending doom, the escalation.
I've read all of Asimov works, but that was decades ago. I think I enjoyed it more than the Dune series which I watched years ago.
I had the same feeling. I read the whole robot/Foundation arc decades ago. And I also was not as impressed by the Dune books. So it’s kind of working to it thru fresh eyes. It’s the old tension between books vs movies.
I just watched the first episode. Never read the books. I know what they are about but I heard they are a slog and pretty cheesy to today's sensibilities. It sounds like the producers are doing the right thing here. I didn't mind the first episode except for some of the shitty acting.
@@MS-ii1sv some parts are absolutely cheesy by todays sensibilities, that is both due to
A]societal progression in certain aspects
B]Asimov's work directly or indirectly inspired much of modern sci-fi, meaning much of what might have been novel at the time has been regurgitated dozens of times by now.
Still good reads though.
@@gabrieldiehl1068 I watched a few more episodes of the show and I had to turn it off. Garbage. Sorry but not interested in the laundry girl's abortions or whatever horseshit subplot they were going for.
Thank you Quinn. I am so glad we have you, you always tell the truth. I really appreciate your videos. You're the best.
Oh wow I just finished episode 9 and all I have to say is, I AM HOOKED!!! This is the sort of epic world I am drawn to in sci fi and or fantasy. I love it and can't wait for the finale in 2 days!
Quinn gives the best Apple TV Plus Foundation review of the first two episodes. I hope he can review all the episodes, do a breakdown and comparing it to the books.
Are they all out yet already?🤔
If he does not. It proves how bad this adaptation is... So lets see...
Like reading the original book, one has to go back and read prelude to and forward to get a feel for events that happened before. Hari arriving on Trantor, his interaction with Dors, the Empire and Demerzel. Finding and adopting Ryach, understanding the nature and scale of Trantor with its many levels and sectors. I get the feeling that someone at Apple mentioned "Foundation" and some executive just went and read only the one Foundation novel but none of the others.
well Ryach is in the show, he is the guy that assassinated hari apparently. I wanted to see Dors, but instead, we get a gender bented demerzel which shouldn't even be there at this point in time.
This is clearly not the case since it referenced things from post-trilogy books...
@@TheGrumpyChairman And pre-trilogy books.
@@TentaclePentacle I think they fused Demerzel and Dors into a single character. And I actually feel the same for Gaal that seems to be a fusion of Gaal Dornick and Manella Seldon.
@@GeekNerdNoir yes I think so, I have a feeling that are going to make gaal give birth to Wanda seldon to start off the second foundation.
Thank you for the review. I wasnt sure if i would want to see this or not.
Might need to read all again first and wait a few more episodes
Facts on the space elevator critique. Good review my guy
Thanks for your review. I'm still on the fence about trying Apple TV and your review will be a big factor as to whether I try it out.
There's a bay in which the waters are warm especially if you have a VPN.
If you do take the plunge.
I highly highly recommend that show "For All Mankind"
High-quality acting, directing visuals. Just all around a great riveting story set in an alternate timeline.
@@Matteo-jd6mt I have heard very very good things about that show. Ron Moore and alternate history about space exploration...sounds like my cup of tea.
Never read the books but enjoyed the first two episodes of the series.
I'm exactly the opposite. I read the books but haven't watch the first 2 episodes. Lol
Same
Have read the books a few times and I'm afraid to watch the episodes :)
@@peterkiraly1058 well no need to be a baby, watch it and then decide? The visuals are well worth a look that I’d love them as posters but nothing the show does erases the books
Me too I think I'm going to enjoy this series. It's very intellectually stimulating. Not trying to use big words but you really got to think and listen to everything because they just don't spoon-feed it to you and I like that
I liked your analysis a lot!
such deep dive reviews on this channel outstanding work
I'm surprised, Quinn, that you couldn't remember Raych's name, who in the book disguised himself as an imperial Gardner and was for forced under influence of _'desperance'_ to kill his father Hari Seldon with a blaster, but was saved by Manella Dubanqua, an undercover security guard who kills Gieb Andorin.
Does any of this rings bells?
I just assumed it was made up like a lot of this adaption.
And father of Wanda Seldon (important character)! They even went to the trouble of showing the detail of being a knife user. Raych is canon
I've read all seven Foundation books, all 3 Galactic Empire books, all 3 Elijah Bailey books (as well as that one short story where a retired Elijah Bailey teams up with Daneel to solve a minor crime), that Fuzby short story, most of the Susan Calvin stories, and End of Eternity, and none of what you wrote rang a bell.
Did that happen in Forward the Foundation? Because the only thing I remember from that book was how terrible it was. I do remember Raych as the street urchin they picked up in Prelude to Foundation, though (I think).
@@Vasharan Yes.
Harry meets Raych in belly button in PTF and adopts him with Dors V
Great review. Just couple of things: 1. Raych actually is appeared on the books 2. The elevator thing is a bit of sloppy, but although they failed to tell that, I think that the inner body bombs are just unique and new so they can’t find them effectively 3. The execution and attack on the planets are quite reasonable for me. They know that the dark can’t be prevented at all, so at least they want to make everybody afraid from the consequences of rebellion for the time being. Weakness, as they said, is a flaw. They need to present strength, and use the big stick possible
Yep, I came here to tell Quinn that Raych is a pretty huge character in the “prequel” Foundation books about Hari on Trantor, but he’s not around by the time Terminus is started. Also, the breakdown and complacency of the empire is a HUGE theme in the books. I saw the failure to anticipate/detect the terrorist bombing of the space elevator as an example of a complacent bureaucracy that hasn’t dealt with real strife on the home front in thousands of years getting caught with its pants down. Also there’s a 9/11 parallel which I’m sure was intentional.
@@jamesphillips4599 also the fact that they introduced the idea that the empire has being under Cleos I clones for the last 400 years. is a pretty clever way to add to the feeling of stagnancy and decay.
Can't find a bomb in a body? They're called scanners.
@@Nautilus1972 They really need to answer that
We all know Raych
Great review! I can feel your sincerity... that's important... if I watch it and disagree... I won't mind because you were honest.
Loved the review!
A really great interesting review. Great analysis on the stylistic stuff.The big explosions style and wooden dialogue/acting is the tedious inheritance of JJ Abrams' style. The lack of explanation of why the Emperor massacres people is very poor. Keep us posted Quinn - you are doing a great job!
Is it me, or this series, instead of an adaptation, is more like a sci-fi series inspired by Foundation? There seem to be too many changes for it to be "faithful"
The book has many dul characters without any feeling that they are actually human... So this better change many things!
I just hope that they don¨t cahnge the idea/ the story. Changing characters and dialog... Have to be done! Those were not the strong suit of Asimov.
Inspired, yes. Faithful? R. Daneel Olivaw is a MAN.
@@haukionkannel then you are either a troll or idiot. The foundation trilogy was never about any of the individual people we meet.
I’m two episodes in and I question how much inspiration it’s actually taken from Foundation. In Episode 1 you saw “The Psychohistorians” unfold, but it felt like the B story. In Episode 2 I didn’t recognize any significant portion of the book at all.
@@Deridus It’s possible that Demerzel isn’t meant to be Olivaw in this version at all. Even if she is, I can’t say the gender swap bothers me; in _The Caves of Steel_ Olivaw’s masculine nature is fairly important, but he doesn’t do anything in the Foundation prequels that he couldn’t have done just the same if he’d been a woman. Well, maybe deal with the Mycogenians. But maybe not; they revered robots as a link to the glory days of Aurora, and lots of patriarchal societies have been willing to bow to female deities.
What I don’t like is that they’d put Olivaw/Demerzel in the story at all. The Foundation prequels sucked, they were not worthy additions to the series. I’d sooner see them ignored.
Quinn, I noticed that here and in one of the previous videos you say that Raych's character wasn't in the books. He is literally Seldon's son in the prequels and plays an important role. His backstory in the series is pretty much the same. I am bummed that they cut Dors though, she was awesome I'm the books.
I was looking forward to dors but instead we got this robot lady that's supposed to be daneel?
When Quinn said that Raych wasn't in the books, I was like "Wait a minute, he WAS in the books, and was pretty darn important, especially in the prequels."
@@TentaclePentacle What's the point of changing gender in the case of Demerzel / Hummin / Daneel Olivaw ? It's the same stupid shit they've been doing since some time ago. Gaal Dornik was a man, Daneel was a man-like robot. Dors was an incredible character, in fact, I believe that Prelude, Forward, Foundation's Edge and Foundation and Earth, were much more adaptable to the kind of production of modern days.
@@edudario1974 those people don't know what they are doing. They want their token strong female so they change the character's gender, but they would just ommit dors altogether, she is the strong female character. In the books she does all the fighting she is the protector. But they would rather change something then just go with what's already been established.
@@janicelee4534 what are you talking about? That was neither in the show not in the books
You got a very pleasant, calm voice, keep up the good work! :)
Thanks Quinn. Wasn't planning on checking this out, but if you like it, maybe I shall! ...maybe I'll wait for you to review the next few eps though.
Great review! I'm starting to see why these books were thought to be "unfilmable": the story (in the TV show) moves at such a fast pace that you don't get to really develop an emotional connection with the characters, and I think that could really hinder this series from catching on to something big. Not to mention time jumps. I'm not familiar with the original books, but if they plan to keep using time jumps throughout the rest of the season/series, it's only going to exacerbate the problem.
Still, I'm very much interested to see how the rest of this story plays out!
The books were, and probably still are un-filmable.I’m not sure this adaptation will hold any water in the long run.
The books are totally filmable. A series format is best for the rather grand story. Unfortunately, the TV producers didn't bother reading the books and making up stuff by copying from other shows. All they are doing is taking the name of the books knowing it has a following.
The conceit with the Emperors was interesting & allows them to keep recycling those actors (+1 other based on some of the teasers), which I guess will be useful in watching the Empire fall. I’m wondering if Gale was sent off to the second foundation - they did name-check the Mule in the opening monologue. My assumption is that they offed Hari Seldon & got Gale off the ship to get the actual psychohistorians out of the picture so Terninus could develop unimpeded.
That was my thought exactly. Neither Gaal nor Hari made it to Terminus and the second foundation was on Trantor. Killing Hati solves one problem and sending Gaal back to trantor gets us the second foundation.
"My assumption is that they offed Hari Seldon & got Gale off the ship to get the actual psychohistorians out of the picture so Terninus could develop unimpeded."
I mean Seldon did seem to be giving off the vibe that he knew it was coming.
Also he kept reminding people that he could not predict individual actions. I think it's another Mule set up.
They also name checked “Star’s End” which raises some interesting questions…
@@Justanotherconsumer after watching it again, I think they are merging Gaal and Wanda characters. The clue is when Gaal and Hari are walking and what she says about the star Bridge. The second clue is the end of episode 2 when she is running from the pool to Hari's room. This all sets up the second foundation and the mule. They did a lot of set up for future conflicts and characters in these first two episodes. I guess most people missed it because they are to busy looking for things to nitpick.
Very well said Quinn, great review!
Oh man, you rock.
A friend of mine who is a huge Dune fan said you also talk about The Foundation after I had complained about some terrible channels I have seen.
You are spot on with your comments and I can tell you understand the world Isaac created.
I am really looking forward to what you have to say about episode 3, I was not thrilled.
So, I watched the two episodes after having noticed your video came out and have finished a short while ago to catch up. My impression of it was mixed. On one hand they were able to capture some of the atmosphere, but I wasn't very happy about the specifics. I'll keep watching it, for now, it still seems worthwhile, but I don't have my hopes up for being a revelation and , dropping my Asimov enthusiast mantle for a second, as a viewer, I have seen relatively little that would keep me (currently) particularly interested in the story.
One thing you seem not to have addressed, perhaps Prelude and Forward to Foundation aren't your favorites, but Raych appears pretty heavily in both and is in fact Seldon's adopted son. I'll be fair, the fact that he has such insignificant moustaches is one thing book-Raych would have found terrible. Hahaha. Anyway, hopefully it gets better and does well.
Edit - I just thought that perhaps the attacks were a free interpretation / inspired by the Joranumite conspiracies during Seldon's time as Prime Minister.
Keep up the great work, Quinn.
I knew Raych was a real character but I couldn't place him. I know if he'd had a mustache I would have immediately haha I will also say that while the show isn't amazing, it did get me to try apple tv, and if todays episode is good, I'll probably subscribe until the series is over.
@@jettrooper101 Yeah, I mean, it's probably one of the few characters over which Asimov went multiple times remarking that particular aspect of the desscription. They seem to have decided that the knives were instead the most important feature. Oh well, who knows, maybe it'll all turn out pretty good eventually. Have a good time watching the show :)
Having finished the first season today, I'm less than enthusiastic with the direction the show is taking. Seldon is an egotistic a$$, and the emperor(s) is a sociopath. My impression is that the show is shaping out into a power struggle between two callous, over controlling mindsets, with "normal" people struck in the middle. I think that by the middle/ end of the series, we'll see heroes (Sal, Gal etc.) denouncing both, and choosing "free will" as their path.
The emperor was mainly a figurehead at the time of the Foundation. Having him being a maniacal murderous tyrant kinda goes against the spirit of the books.
As someone whose just finished the entire season without watching this video. I believe the book readers are doing a disservice to the show, it sure as hell made me want to grab a copy and they've made a new fan of this verse. Wonderful job on this one!
After reading the first book, I can conclude with one thing, this show is going to have a really big hurdle making these characters interesting.
Don't get me wrong, The Foundation is a landmark novel and I can see why, but character wise it's very lacking. The building of the foundation and how it portrays how a society can progress from isolationist and religious to trade and commerce focused is fascinating, but if you need characters to get invested in you probably won't go on to the other books. Like me, I liked foundation but I probably won't read the rest of the series because I need a more character focused narrative
I get why the show wants to take liberties to the book in terms of character development. If it wants to get a wider audience it kinda needs to if we're being honest.
Definitely. When I heard they were making a show I couldn't understand how they could possibly do it. Foundation just doesn't seem to lend itself to a visual medium
I actually think that made the book more interesting. It felt like that the wohle course of history is bigger than any individual. So it didn't felt like a Star wars story where the future of the empire depends on ONE hero.
With that being said I am very disappointed with the show. It's flawed, it's different (in a negative way).
Also the gender swap and the blackwashing doesn't make it any better !
The only good thing about this show is the look.
never read the book and was not to interested in the story; but saw first episode and it seems ver bland and generic but with some nice visuals but yes the characters seemed very thin and generic; and they thru in a bunch of dr strange type fx, this show is a pass imo
@@marvinrichardson1618 I think Salvor Hardin is a great character in the book BUT in the series HE is a black woman... I mean WTF ?!
@@benceelias1849 "blackwashing?" That's a new twisted twist from the peanut gallery. If your imagination is this good, no need to read, listen, or watch anything ever again. What's in your head should suffice.
Im just happy Comrade Legasov recovered and is sticking it to the evil empire
Da!
Thanks. I only saw the first one, so it's great to see reviews of the next chapters. I am a big fan of "The Expanse", so this is also interesting to me.
In dune, some characters (duncan idaho I think) were repeatedly reincarnated as gholas, the people who make tv sci-fi know about five sci-fi concepts and think they're genii every time they manage to crowbar one in, whether it fits or not
I quite like it but there was this one thing that really pulled me out of immersion and that was the scale of the space elevator. It was okay when they first show it but during the explosion I was expect to be much bigger. Now that can be just perspective thing but it just felt... wrong. Anyone else has problem with that?
The music so far is phenomenal, tho. McCreary at his best.
I'm thinking a shout out to, or borrowing from the Red/Green/Blue Mars series of books.
Yeah, the space elevator undershot my expectation of playing at least once with vertigo/scale. I LOVE the "sands of time" intro though, and it overshot my expectations by a mile. You win some you lose some, I suppose :)
I think the visuals didn't represent the scale well when it fell but the Emperor does say it was "wrapping around the planet"
Being a sci fi junky that i am, i'm really trying hard to enjoy the series.. i really am. Specially because you can clearly see that the producers invested quite substantially in the cgi and visuals, which to be fair, are amazing. But man.. after watching episode 2 oh my oh my where to begin.. There is no character development at all, just a bunch of convoluted set pieces with 1 or 2 minutes each (in a 1 Hour Show!) with no foreplay or background to conversations .. which literally makes me feel that my brain is always at 200 trying to gasp what's going on.. and then my head starts popping up all this questions.. "where did this guy came from!?" or " what was the point of Hari speech at the laundry?" or "why do i have the feeling that Gall and Rayach romance is cheap?" or "why didn't i feel anything on the wall painting scene with brother dusk? Oh right.. because it last 20 seconds that's why!" or.. "why in the hell was she swimming and then starts running out of nowhere and all of a sudden Hari dies by the knife and all this in 10 seconds" ffs lol.
i really hope they start pulling a little bit of some game of thrones character development, with that awesome and unique sort of tension increase, else if this continues like this, I think im going to read the book instead (which i bought today yay!)
Same for me. The books are too high concept driven to make a close adaptation to screen...very little character development. But that was by design, the show is because the script and in the lead character's case, acting, is not very good. Visually beautiful, but it can't replace a well written story. I might watch the third episode, but have lost interest.
I fell asleep during episode 2 TBH
I tapped out on episode 4, only stayed that long because of Lee Pace. If it works, I have no issues with creators deviate from source material, but this show is trash. High production value, trash characters and story.
Great review. Waited a long time for this show to come out to be delivered an average performance. But I’ll watch it.
I think your review is spot on. The Raych & Gaal interactions feel a bit awkward but otherwise it's pretty strong as a show on it's own terms once you get over the character and event changes.
"Genetic dynasty" probably sounds Dune-ish because "genetic memory" features so prominently in the dune series.
I've tried really hard to read the foundation series of books but never managed getting past some of the second book. Was kind of wishing this show would be a good alternative to the books but oh well...
Give it a watch first. You might have a different experience than this review.
It kinda is but they are trying to fill out the time between chapters
I would imagine a book-accurate version of the TV show would feel like watching 5 different shows per episode.
Try the audio books narrated by Scott Brick. Very good.
@@poposterous236 I think it could be done if you made Bayta Darrell the central figure. As a history scholar she can give exposition in the course of her research about Seldon and the Plan, as well as Hardin, Mallow, Devers, Riose and the rest. Treat them as historical figures whose work is already done and their bare bones characterization is no longer a liability.
Then her research is interrupted by the political machinations of Indbur’s regime and her life takes a hard left turn. She meets her husband as well as Pritcher, Mis, and Magnifico. This is your main cast; they’ve all got better characterization than the earlier figures, so you can give the actors and writers something to sink their teeth into. You could do “The Mule” pretty much as Asimov wrote it.
The only major change I think you would need to make would be to keep her involved in “Search by the Mule,” or at least shift the POV away from her gradually. This would be challenging but I think it can be done in a way that does not disrespect the source material. Besides, the storyline of “Search by the Mule” is a bit thin compared with some of the others, so you’re going to need a B plot anyway.
Then do “Search by the First Foundation” as a sequel series. You might need to change Bayta’s son’s backstory around to accommodate Bayta’s expanded role on the back end, but that shouldn’t affect Arkady much. I do think I would make her about ten or twelve years older, both so she can be written to have a bit more agency in the plot, and so the casting director can choose from a much wider field of actors capable of playing a series lead.
As an added bonus, the fact that we glossed over the parts of the story where we watch the Plan unfold means that never getting to see the Second Empire rise would be much less of a disappointment.
a) Most editions of SECOND FOUNDATION, including the one you showed, have a big chunk of text missing right before the section labeled "Fourth Interlude." You need to hunt down a fairly early edition to see what has apparently gone missing, unnoticed by editors, for decades.
b) The scene where the space elevator falls and , in its fall, wraps several times around the planet, causing massive destruction, is pretty clearly lifted from a scene in Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy.
c) In the narration for Ep.1, Gaal mentions the Mule, so evidently they want her to be a viewpoint character who spans a few centuries.
d) Raych isn't a new character; like Demerzel, he's being brought forward from the prequels.
e) At 13:52 when you say Trantor I think you mean Terminus?
For sure on the KSR Mars Trilogy with the falling space elevator, right down to it carving a trench across the planet.
"gone missing" great use of words there.
Agreed.
I wasn't blown away (and sometimes the nods to other franchises are distracting) but this was a good effort.
Neat to find ways to keep "Empire" and Gaal in the show.
Thanks for the review. I watched the first two episodes and I was a bit confused with some of the events that do not take place in the book, and I read it 25 years ago. But it is entertaining as you described very well, and I will try to not compare it to the book and just enjoy it as a new show.
Gaal probably going to do something about "the second foundation"? the Psychohistorians were all in the second foundation (not going to spoil where) and no one talked about the second foundation, so probably she is going to have something to do with it maybe.
OK, that would be an interesting twist. I don't think that'll be the case, but it'd be cool.
they are going to give her mental powers, because in the books Hari's daughter had mental powers.
i do think so
I think you may well be right.
@@TentaclePentacle it was Harry’s adopted granddaughter from Raysch and the prostitute he married, that had the mental powers, right?
I actually think that the destruction of the tower along with the conflict being shown between the two kingdoms is there to punctuate Seldon's prediction for those people people that are not big scifi fans.
That was a super-weird scene.
The destruction of the tower makes zero sense. We supposedly have two warring sides who have come together to attack the tower?
So, obviously we're supposed to suspect the Empire triumvirate... at least one of whom (middle Empire, AKA Mr Eyebrows) has arranged for the tower to be destroyed in order to advance his fascist agenda.
And nobody in the ten trillion people of the empire can work this out.
It was totally unnecessary. Simple exposition could have hammered home the fact the empire looks as strong as ever but is undergoing as slow systemic collapse.
@@w0mblemania I don't think it was either world, but a 3rd party. If I remember my 1st book right, there were 4 kingdoms in the region. I think there is a 3rd kingdom trying to undermine the other two.
I've been watching stuff on UA-cam for a LONG TIME. I can't fathom why I did not encounter your channel before now. This is the absolute coolest channel I've seen! You sir, you are my sci-brother! Count yourself another sub-and I will heavily share your videos, and I will be sure to go through your videos to rack up your likes. It's the least I could do! I'm home!!
Thank you for a very intellectual analysis of the source material.
I read the entire series and it can be a struggle at times. Has to be daunting to adapt.
On the one hand, adaptation can be easy because Asimov only paints with broad strokes and doesn't go into much detail about really anything, his world building is more about concepts not details. That leaves the series with a lot of freedom and do anything they want really for visual design or world building like the genetic dynasty.
On the other hand, it has to be hard to get the timeline right, hit all the story beats, make some things happen when nothing does the books for a long time, and make the characters interesting, - which the books don't always manage to do.
Which streaming service is it on?
Not sure which books you refer to. The trilogy was written in the forties and fifties, and then he wrote several more books in the eighties I believe it was, and also connected other books with the Foundation universe. In these books written in his later years, he focuses a lot more on the characters and their personal stories. It's possible that even then he doesn't go that much into the personalities. I think the main difference is that we get to follow the characters. I prefer his early style, with the broad strokes.
@@benttranberg2690 I know and I mean all seven books.
From the trailers it looks like the prequel stories will feature prominently, and personally I hope they rewrite the ending, some of the Galaxia plot and maybe keep the connections to Asimov's Empire/Robot series in the background, which he only retconned in for his later work anyway.
I think it's obvious that even the, admittedly more interesting, characters in his stories about finding earth and the Seldon centric prequels aren't nearly fleshed out enough for a TV series. Many characters throughout the entire series just don't feel like actual people that speak like human beings.
About the "broad strokes," this reminds me of The Man in the High Castle. The original book was very much written in a similar way--highly philosophical and theoretical--but it was also a very short novel and not a series of books, so I think the team who adapted the TV series were kind of forced to take a lot of liberties. (Didn't work out so well in the last season, imo, but that's another matter...)
Totally agree. Which is why im really sort of stunned that there are so many readers of Foundation and the Empire series who aren't keen on or even outraged over the deviations from the source material and the new original additions to it. So far they are still maintaining the general core of what the books are, the themes and general story. And as a whole have done a pretty darn good job as a whole imo.
I am just loving Apple TV’s originals and they just killed it with the “Foundation” .I am really glad that they went to actual places and build actual sets to shoot the series instead of taking easy route of CGI .There hard work paid off ,the show looks Marvellous.It’s a visual treat .The world building is also soo good .It shows they put a lot of love and care in this show ❤️🤍.One thing I love about this show is it doesn’t treat it’s audience like a child by giving to many informations that they shouldn’t be giving which many shows this days .This show requires your full attention and it freaking deserve it .
I believe it’s going to be the “Next Big Thing” 🤍💙
Yeah man I totally agree with you .I just loved the 2 episodes. The visuals totally captivated me .Eagerly waiting for the new episodes.🤍🤍🤍
What's good in Apple TV? Most of the shows are terrible tbh.
What do you mean? It's mostly CGI and you can see it.
@@alb0zfinest What are you talking about? Apple TV + shows are all beautiful, but on Netflix they are all low quality.
@@francesco2648 What does that have to do with the quality of the show? It can have good cgi but be a terrible show. There isn’t one great apple tv series, it’s either just mediocre shows or utterly terrible.
It's been years since I read the books so thanks for including comparisons to those. My wife and I watched the first two episodes and we're currently somewhat ambivalent on it. Hollywood / Netflix / Amazon have had a certain direction everything seems to go to so I'm not too hopeful - but we don't hate it so far.
I love the music at the end of your videos too.
I whatched the first episode last night. As a fan of the novels, I found it to be ok. What bothers me the most is the "evil empire" stuff. It dumbs down the series. Asimov would never write about "good guys vs bad guys". He was smarter than this.
I dont know, I always remember the end of Foundation and Earth as Asimov having a seizure because he had this irrational cold war fear of an Enemy who is different and thus dangerous. I dont see that as intelligence. For me Foundation and Dune are great trilogies.
@@bemersonbakebarmen How is an enemy that is different and that you can not understand not dangerous. If you can not predict what an enemy is going to do to hurt you, you have to spend more time reacting than acting, and that is very dangerous.
True. But today’s world isn’t.
Lol the whole time watching I actually like the Generic Dynasty better than Seldon and his goons. The internal conflict of the Empires were much more interesting than space wars, building Wikipedia irl and what not.
Ty for this review. I have to assume that the first time Hari appears in the time vault he’s going to explain that he was behind the attacks on the space elevator, and that he needed the other planets in the outer reach decimated to further allow terminus to grow into itself, as well as to hasten the fall of the empire. Gaal surviving is a mystery, but I’m thinking perhaps she’s being sent off to establish the second foundation….
Time will tell, a lot of deviation from the books, but that seemed mandatory given the scope of the books.
But wasn't the 2nd Foundation imbedded with the 1st?
@@johnnewbanks7627 the second foundation is on trentor so they have to return gaal back to trentor for her to build the second foundation.
In the books... the 2nd Foundation is really located back on Trantor. But they've already deviated far from the books. I could see Gaal making her way back to Trantor and the Seer on Trantor to establish the 2nd foundation... who knows. I don't recall the original founder of 2F ever actually being named in the books.
@@jb510 the original founder of the 2F, was Hari's granddaughter who have mental abilities. I think they are going to merge gaal with that granddaughter.
Thanks for the memory refresh. I haven’t reread Second Foundation yet. And it has been 45 years or so since I first read it.
I read the books in middle school back in the 80s. So I have forgotten a lot lol. But, I can't get enough. I've watched both episodes twice! And the jump-ship sequence looked fantastic! Then there is Lee Pace and Jared Harris with "stellar" performances. I can't wait for the next ep.
I'm not Spider Robinson, but *--SPOILER!* Hari Seldon told his adapted son, Raych Seldon, that the Foundation had a much greater chance of success if he was Martyred than if he survived to reach Terminus. That's why he wasn't at the budget meeting, Hari was conspiring in his own death. Good call Quinn.
Am I the only one that was bothered by the fact that the emperor had a personal shield. I thought that miniaturization was what distinguished the foundation technology from the empire.
Also I might not remember it corectly but I thought Harry stayed ill on the empire plant.
Besides that I have no complains.
You're not wrong, in the books nuclear reactors were the size of large buildings/small cities, the thought that one could have a nuclear reactor in something that small was almost "Blasphemy" to the tech man later in the book. And Seldon was ill and in a wheelchair (Visualized in the vault recordings when he talks to them) and hadn't lived long enough to see Terminus get going.
Foundation influenced everything, and every thing influence the Foundation adaption in turn? Nice snake eating its own tail action.
Isn't Bespis/Bespin a world in Star Wars?
Bespin is a Star Wars planet. It's where Cloud City is in the Empire Strikes Back (Episode V which is the 2nd movie from the original trilogy).
I seem to remember that Anarcreon was an imperial sector capital at this point in time it seems to be portrayed as a single planetary kingdom.
Correllian chocolate anyone?
Great video! Just one note, Raych is actually in the books, but only in the prequels. He's the adopted child of Hari and Dors Venabili.
Asimov's books are about the battle between scientific ideas and the political process with most of the "action" off-page as dialogue between the characters. To make the TV show they would have to make significant changes most notably adding some emotional bonds between the characters. (This is something the Expanse does really well making the audience care about the characters.)
Thank you for helping me understand. I couldn't read all of foundation, but I don't remember a love story. I remember hari popping up every 100 years telling everyone how right he is.
When I read Foundation, I never felt this was the greatest scifi book of all time.
Maybe I am just a dumbass at heart.
I didn't feel anything for the characters, anything that was built up or intimated just didn't reach a crisis for me to get emotionally invested.
Yeah it looks good, liberties aside telling this story where character development was never crucial to the (book) storytelling was going to be hard, so I'll give the devs a pass
The effort, production values, is there in spades. But for whatever reason (right now) I'm not feeling anything special for this or have enough reason to tune in weekly. I hope that changes. I don't dig the game of thrones vibes, if that was the intent it was lack luster. I really hope I'm wrong about this series but I think the liberties will creep in to eventually overshadow what is cherished by many.
Ditto
Cant wait for quinns review of dune and what he thinks of the movie, saw it yesterday but will not tell any more
Seldon knowing that he'll be assassinated sounds ridiculous to me as Psychohistory is not advanced enough to calculate the future of a person.
But it doesn't work if they know the plan. And Harry knows the plan. He can't be there.
The first two episodes were "above average" - very well said indeed. I'll try not to be overcritical at least until the middle of the season.
Couple of observations(in no particular order): 1). you kept comparing Foundation to Dune, but keep in mind publication dates: “Foundation” (book version) was published in 1951, whereas “Dune” was published in 1965. So ideas Herbert used in Dune were probably circulating in his head after he read Foundation (it’s the classic chicken vs. egg argument). Rather it was FH who riffed off IA. 2). If a culture has been around a long enough time, stagnation and “keeping things close to what their ancestors created” is pretty much a given. The production design team could be using generic, repetitive sets to bring this point across without having to say anything. 3). While not a geneticist (anthropologist here), couldn’t the repetitiveness of cloning the emperor have resulted in some base genetic deterioration to the point that maybe Brother Day himself is acting in ways that maybe even he, himself doesn’t understand, and could be due to genetic deterioration? 4) also, is there any indication that the Asimov estate had notes/storylines lined up but were never published (Asimov;s Daughter is on of the exec. producers)? If so, that could be a reason that some things are occurring in the series that were never in the “public cannon?” Once again, you have a great breakdown…can’t wait to see what you say next week.
You are new to this channel... Quinn has made several episodes about both Fundation and Dune.
Anyway. Asimov state cant be trusted. I remember I robot and Bicentenial Man with Robbie Williams and Will Smitj
@@bemersonbakebarmen you’re right. I had forgot Bicentennial Man and I, Robot. As for my presence on this channel, I lurk more than I comment. Frankly, as an anthropologist, I find the examination of an empire crumbling far more intriguing, than almost anything else, so I’ll be watching “Foundation” to the end to see how they run with it. But for now, it’s back to re-reading “Dune.”
Read the books 20+ years ago, thanks for the review. I'll probably skip it based on what you said here. Keep doing your thing, man. Much love from Alaska.
They said Foundation couldn't be filmed and after watching this two episodes, still hasn't been.
I’ve watched the first two episodes several times and they show a great deal of production value. When analyzing this you have to remember that the first three books were written in the 1940’s and that the others came much later and were influenced by Asimov’s robot stories. This production introduces robots much sooner than the books do. They are making a correction.
I didn’t find any emotional pay off. But yes it was beautiful and Jared Harris was top notch with what he had to work with.
There are 2 extremely glaring liberty…Gaal Dornick is a male adult mathematician while in the show the character is a young gir. The other one is the character of Salvor Hardin in the book the character is an adult man who is the mayor, in the series, Salvor Hardin a female warden.
ty Quinn.. i appreciate your awesome insight as always.. i do worry tho you are falling into the classic trap of readers who watch any book(s) they love moved onto the screen.. it can't be the same.. its different.. lets give it a chance to be great, as you did with the books. :)