1. It's mentioned multiple times that people assume Demerzel is undergoing the same process as Cleon. 2. Hobor Mallow grew up in the Foundation and lost faith. His story is basically the prodigal son. 3. The only Cleon people follow orders from is Day. Without him Demerzel gives orders. 4. Dawn got his sterility reversed with an injection given to him by Serath. I like the show. But I didn't read the books. If I had expectations I could easily see me hating it.
1) But we never see a dawn, day or dusk version of Demerzel. She's literally always the same age. In-universe do they believe they're decanting a new version of her every five years so she never appears to age? I can't remember anyone in-show ever addressing this, which seems a major omission.
@@SkirneSareth mentions it early in the season when she's trying to sus out the Imperium's secret workings. Everyone assumes that Demerzel's also being backed up and decanted just like the Cleons.
I don't like how they changed Demerzel, an iconic character. It's like adapting Gandalf into an witch instead of a wizard. Having read Foundation series (haven't read Foundation and Earth) and the Robot series (currently reading Robot of Dawn), R. Daneel is my favorite character, and they massacred my boy...
@@s3rs312 so you don’t like her because she’s a girl in this version? If not you might wanna clarify cause the turning a wizard into a witch analogy makes it come off that way
When I recommend this show to anyone i always mention that its not BASED on the books(I listened to them in audio form) but rather INSPIRED by them. Making that distinction us important for me to not go frustrated Nerd mode. Really like it tho
Asimov was an idea man. Character-wise, his robots are more interesting than his people. Same for Arthur Clarke. Readers can recall any number of ideas from Clarke's books, but rarely any characters. This doesn't diminish the importance of their work, but it is also what makes Herbert's Dune so great. You remember both the ideas AND the characters. Ursula LeGuin is another example. Every writer of SF hopes to come up with tales where both characters and ideas are memorable. It ain't easy.
An insightful observation, but there is one "character" that is memorable from AC Clarke's 2001, probably because the novel was adapted into a film, which was followed by a sequel. I'm referring to HAL 9000 of course! Admittedly, HAL was an exception to the rule.
Goyer’s work is generally hit or miss. His work is stronger when collaborating with people like Nolan, Proyas, Wolfman or Del Toro. Dark City was his best sci-fi.
The most interesting parts of the series are the parts that really have little to nothing to do with the books. If this was a scifi epic that just focused on a crumbling empire, the genetic dynasty (not in the books), and Demerzel it would be a really good scifi series. Anything to do with Gaal, Salvore, and, mostly, Hari especially Terminus and the mentalic planet could be cut and it would be a better scifi series. But it barely resembles Foundation at all.
the genetic dynasty is such interesting and pretty unique concept not really seen or utilised in sci-fi, thats what made me watch the first season, that and the visuals and the atmosphere the show created, if they did stick to those two strengths of theirs and explored those concepts instead of foundation the show would gain cult following, but unfortunately they bogged it down by forcing Asimovs characters into their own divergent universe and the characters and their stories just dont fit or make sense in such setting and as a result it turned rather original and visually stunning show into hot mess thats painful to watch for anyone who actually read and enjoyed all the foundation series.
@@rehurekj _"the genetic dynasty is such interesting and pretty unique concept not really seen or utilised in sci-fi"_ It's not that unique. Cloning is a common theme in sci-fi. The show is clever because of how they use the idea to create 3 clones who are intended to all rule for a limited time, but portrays how this trinity is flawed, inevitably leading to the eventual end of the dynasty and death of their empire.
@@GonzoTehGreat cloning is common, even succession of ones clones or dynasty of clones is not so unheard of( even Star Trek with beaming oneself everywhere may be seen as version of cloning- ones killed and then at the destination ones copy is reassembled with all memories transferred somehow) but keep constantly 3 different copies of oneself forming some sort of family unit, all in different stage of development at the same time raising, influencing/ educating and caring for each other? sorry, but while theres chance it may have been used in some less well known work before, i never really read or watched any story which has been playing with and developing concept like that.
The show deviates from the books so far that there is no other approach as to treat it as separate entity, loosely related to Asimov's work. Once you do that you can enjoy the show as any other. I've read the books and it was a fantastic experience. Now I've watched two seasons of Foundation and it was a good entertainment. And that's what it is. Entertainment. It's not supposed to engage any demanding audience. Asimov's fans (I am one of them) might be disappointed a bit, but from the other perspective the show is quite pleasant to watch.
I've given up thinking of it as Foundation. There is no shortage of producers who believe they're able to re-imagine the work of others (see Abrams, JJ) in Hollywood. I just hope it's an interesting story.
Didn't read the book. But as a show watcher, I love it. I enjoyed season 2 more than the first. We will see how it goes in future seasons, but I think Foundation will ultimately reach my top 10 list, assuming it gets a conclusion and the writing quality remains roughly the same. Great sci-fi.
I found the characters of Gaal and Salvore, so boring I began to wonder if I have become bigoted in my old age. I stopped watching after season 2, episode 2. It's not Asimov's Foundation. For me the Empire storyline was decent if not watched as an Asimov Foundation fan. Also, visually the Empire scenes were pretty good, where as other planet scenes reminded me of cheap original Star Trek studio sets. Thank you for you videos.
I was excited when I found out season 2 was out. I had cancelled appletv almost a year ago. I actually restarted my subscription just so I could watch foundation season 2. I found myself fast forwarding through more of each episode than I watched and still having a full understanding of the plot. I thoroughly feel that they stretched two episodes into ten. This season was absolutely horrible! I feel like the entire thing was written by a team of teenage girls.
Same Apple tv strategy, same disappointment, same assumptions; yet forgiven but definitely god awful s2. I really hope it was a price to pay for a good s3
I often see people make the argument that characters in the Foundation books had no depth. I don't think so. Many were quite dynamic in their short duration, with Hardin, Mallow, Bayta, and The Mule being the most memorable. (I especially enjoy Trevize, Janov, and Gendibal in Foundation's Edge.)
LOL That episode was also my favorite! I saw Season I as a completely different story. I didn't understand all the swapping, characters, new plots, new events, etc as part of the Foundation story. Reminded me of Karin Slaughter's Will Trent that came to screen. The hero, 6'3, blond Southerner was a shortish, Hispanic with a wavering accent. His partner and boss were race swapped, girlfriend a no-show and a trans character brought in to babysit a dog. But it was the triteness and lack of similarity to the books that were the real problems. And that's Foundation in a nutshell. Asimov's fans don't see "Foundation" whereas those who never read the book are satisfied. Harry's comeback was a REAL downer since his holographic appearances were such an integral part of the book. All the near deaths / fake deaths became predictable. Loved the Demerzel line. "Altered Carbon" got the same treatment. Apparently writers are rewarded by how far they deviate from the original material.
I think the show runners have taken some of the themes of the books and, most especially, the world of Foundation and crafted it into a fantastic character based story. The Cleon(s) of the show is hands down my favorite character(s) ever written. A genetic dynasty of three ruling clones. Absolutely brilliant! I feel bad for all those so focused on the book they can't see what a brilliant piece of work is being brought to life in this show.
The CORE theme of the books is that broad social and economic forces are more important than individual heroics. The show literally does the complete opposite. It's like the show writers read the books and hated it so much they decided to produce a show with the same name but the opposite theme just to spite Asimov. And even as standalone media, it's very mediocre scifi with a big budget and not much else of substance
I gave up at episode 2 of season 1. It felt like they had only ever read a synopsis of the book then decided put their own story over the top. It confused me as I had read the Goyer was a fan of the books. I understand that they are difficult to adapt being lots of discussions in rooms but it would be possible. I do hope one day someone actually adapts the books
I find that watching series that deviate this much from the original story/books takes too much enjoyment away from the experience. "The Foundation" is not the only one. "The Rings of power" comes to mind and the 2nd season of "The Wheel of time" is also getting to the point that I don't enjoy watching it anymore. It is almost as if the writers for these series feel the need to make lots of adaptations to the original in order to prove they are needed. It is possible to do it right. Just look at the new incarnation of Dune. I just hope they continue that trend in the second movie.
I'm glad it was made and am looking forward to season 3 if it arrives. At first i was confused at all the departures from the original story but very soon i learned to appreciate it as a stand alone series that just so happens to share the name and some themes with the books of the same name.
I never read the Empire books, so the changes there never bothered me as much. I read so far in Foundation that it was eventually just Asimov tying up loose ends in his many individual series into one super ret-con to tie everything together. The way I see it, the show is introducing as many story elements as early as possible so that the new crises have some background. It sounds like I'm defending the changes, but they are not all good, like we never got to see Hobor Mallow take control of the conflicts and step up as the Merchant King 😢
I completely agree, the series has nothing to do with the books other than some names and some basic background. That being said, I am enjoying it so long as I don't think of it as Asimov's Foundation.
I'd have fewer issues with these adaptations of beloved original works that diverge WILDLY if only they were competently written/conceived. I may not like what they've done with it, but at least I could say they were made by people who knew what they were doing. But I can't say that. Not only do they stray, but they're sloppy about it. That's the part I can't forgive.
Not having read the books, I had no basis for comparison. I did find some issue also with pacing and continuity, but managed to enjoy it regardless…until the battle of the Invictus. It annoyed me no end that the writers went to so much trouble bringing hard sci-fi tropes and concepts for both seasons, only to defend into a cheap Star Wars ripoff (of which star wars is a billion dollar franchise based on derivative plot vehicles). A space battle? Really? And taken straight from the pages of WW2 battle accounts. T They can swap bodies via a pocket sized teleport device, fold space to travel light years in an instant, but only manage to use old fashioned broadside cannonade and deflection shooting that even now in our modern military can do so much better. So lazy…
As a non-book watcher, I enjoyed season 2 UP UNTIL the reveal that no one on Terminus died. Like you said, it just cheapens death and now I don't trust a character to actually die.
You should read the books. Asimov wasn't much for characters, but what and who the mule is and why there is a second foundation are imo the best shock of the entire series. It kicks the leg out from the fundamentals of what everyone believed.
I did not have much expectation for this so I am content & I am really enjoying this. I was prepared they're gonna change a lot of stuff but I don't care since it was a long time since I read the books. Season 2 is slightly better for me. You're right , visuals & Cleon arc are the best parts. I hate Gaal. Miscast. Insufferable. Sarvol I like ( and the rest of the cast ) Cleons & Demerzel are the best. All your critique is on point. But I prefer to watch this than recent SW / ST stuff
Wow, I found the season 2 quite engrossing, IF and WHEN they explained DEATH, how Sheddon got revived, How Gale could live so long etc... This season was quite what Dune was supposed to be, GAME OF THRONE, in Space... if they cannot explain DEATH, this is "LOST" REINCARNATE. They can clone already, which makes Life kinda cheap, why not just clone the whole dead Family of the betrothalled Princess? That should sate her desire for revenge LOL PS . the same error George Lucs did with using Midichlorian, to explain the Force !
I don’t mind changes, it is just the parts that don’t involve the Cleons is so confusing. I really cannot follow what is going on in the Foundation new stories. The Cleons are great, though nothing to do with Foundation and kind of utterly against the larger idea of history vs personality. But I could deal with that because the Cleons are great in the show. But all the other stuff is so messed up. It not only ignored Asimov but it lacks any clear story telling.
Honestly, I couldn't bring myself to watch season 2. I understand creative interpretation, but if you're going to detour so much, why not call it something original. It's ok to say that it was inspired by the books, but calling it the foundation is just to attract the already existing fan base.
I only watch this show to see my Wife Gaal but I enjoy the Cleons story more. they didn't do a good job making us care about any of the foundations on whatever planet
S2 was greatly improved and had amazing performances. This is one of the best sci-fi shows out rn. I get it’s not the Foundation fans wanted but that has nothing to do with me 😂
It's a shame, really. Season 2 went the way of so many shows out there. You have a great first season with a lot of time and effort put into the story, worldbuilding, writing and production. So it becomes a success and now you need to quickly continue. The money is there, but not the time. Season 2 isn't telling a story, it's filling screen time. It still looks good, but that's about it. Everything feels random. There are no rules. Things happen, because they need to happen, not because it makes sense. People get captured, when they need to get captured and they escape, when they need to escape. The production value is still there, but without a coherent story, it's senseless. Season 1 made me feel for the bombardment of two planets. It was outrageous without ever showing me the people before. Season 2 on the other hand had me feel nothing about the destruction of Terminus. They even felt the need for a character to say that it was an atrocity. I didn't care. And I was right to not care, because they all survived anyway. But I didn't care about that either. At this point it's a mess and I don't think I'll be watching season 3.
I know you didn't want to get ranty.. but the actors playing Gaal, Salvor and Sareth were very poor, shown up by the excellent actors around them. Maybe it was the script rather than their acting abilities. But good grief I found them aggravating. Thanks for the review.
I think this is just another example of people with a lot of money purchasing credibility of an established story and then co-opting it to do there own thing. It happened with I Robot too. I am very disappointed.
In this case I like the TV show more than the books. Most readers look for memorable characters and beautiful prose. I like Asimov but he really excels in neither. Foundation has many Characters but few that stand out and his writing style is workmanlike. To portray such a vast era as he does, that boils down mostly to men in rooms debating philosophical differences is impossible for a television series. Asimov’s strength is in his ideas which he delivers in spades. Ideas that turned up time an again in space opera movies like Star Wars, Star Trek, ect.
Is it possible that the Empire content is coming from the Empire books? I haven’t read Pebble in the Sky and the other two, but could that content be in there? I’m planning on reading them before the end of the year, so we shall see
I am sorry dude. This version of Foundation is just completely incoherent to me. There were some dramatic moments in season 2, esp #8. But jeezus WTF this is just some science fiction show. It has some names from the Azimov books, but WTF.
Season 1. Split into two threads. Empire and Foundation. The empire story line was pretty good. Well acted well written. The foundation stuff was awful with the sole exception of Jared Harris. The genetic dynasty is actually a great idea to allow some continuation. The stability it brings mirrors the imperial stability and sameness and its creaking shows the rot setting in for the empire. Having seldon around throws away the power of psycho history and the crisis predictions and their eventual failure. Season 2. There are still some remains of the best imperial stuff. But it's slipping. I still don't care about gaal, or salvor (terrible acting). They ruin the second foundation idea and the shock of the mule is completely lost.. demerzel remains a good character well acted. But.... magic Sheldon. Magic vault. In short , woke inserts, terrible choices and the bad is now overpowering even the good imperial storylines and crumbling stability.
I don't hate the show but I also don't like it. It suffers a lot... and I mean a lot from lazy writing as it was pointed in the review. Everybody dies but actually live. Gaal is becoming to much of a Mary Sue for my liking. I love Jared Harris but his "resurection" is just bullcrap. The writers have tangled themselves so hard they really struggle to untie the knots and it shows in the final episode. The whole double-double crossing of Hober and the Spacers was a bit lame. Empire has 1000+ ships but attac the Invictus with just one and 6 fighters and it's done. Then one ship crashes onto the planed and it is destroyed but everybody has time to get into the vault that has become a space ship. I mean Harry Seldon was not a phycho-historian he was Einstein. The Empire arc is - as in Season 1 - the most interesting, but Demezel havin the qube is a very strange move. The writers need to dial down a notch it's just too much.
I gave up after S3, episode 2. The writing is terrible. It puts me in mind of young kids playing made-up games - "Now this happens!" "Yeah! And then this happens!" etc. etc. And I'm sorry, but Gaal and Salvor are very poorly acted. Lee Pace and Jared Harris are both good, but they're not enough to save this.
I totaly disagre wirh this.. season 2 was even better then 1. And the changes needed be... maybe a little bit less woke stuff .. but it was on the down low..
Bad, bad writing. Harry was doing fine as an Hologram. He was resurrected so he could die again!? Also the whole, we had it all planed thing in episode 10 was ridiculous, as was Terminus being destroyed by a falling spaceship? Were they living on an egg? The episode in where Dawn & Dusk discover they have much less memory than they should could have lead to something, but it was just thrown away. The Harry/Gale/Salvor mentalic boot camp made no sense. Why couldn't Gale return to Trantor, where she would start the second foundation herself. And finally, How the hell did Demerzel get the Prime Radiant? Very bad writing....
My only residual interest is the empire plot. As you say not part of the original story but it could be a good story in its own right. The core concept of Asimov in the original trilogy was the idea of psych history. That a sufficiently large body of humans would follow a statistically predictable pattern. That idea has either been misunderstood or corrupted into the idea of precognition. Dune does that better.
One must remember that a one to one copying of a book any book on to screen is a very hard thing to do See LOTR even there it's not perfect and they tried to get it as best they could and LOTR is seen as the gold standard of book to screen And i do agree that they stray a lot i. This but one must remember that this to do it justice and do a one to one book to screen of foundation You'll going to need 5 years of 20 one hour episodes at least And then you'll be having the cost 20 million per episode well that's a lot of money and it then needs to ne a whopping success to have any hope of recup that money So there's a reason that what we've gotten is not what was written in the books And if you go in to it whit that premise its a fairly series not great but not bad either So let's see what happens with it in season 3 if it ever gets here at all Just saying
Tbh, I found Foundation childish despite the great cast and acting. They weren’t enough to outweigh the ridiculous play battles and fights. The kids running around with mock guns was just silly. Small screen issues?? 🤷♀️
This show was so disappointing on so many levels. I did find the Cleon storyline somewhat engaging in S1, but the robot subplot was a total departure (given the sequels written by other authors, it could be argued that they were never part of Asimov's original vision). The ending of S1 took me right out completely. The plot armor was strong with our leading lady finding her mother(?) in a stasis pod underwater. Coincidence? More likely Rings Of Power envy, as to who can screw up an IP faster.
Here's a controversial take: the books were great for all the moments of awesome, but fails in making realistic antagonists - they're dumb as f! The Empire wasn't really anything to be feared, what with the op whisperships of the Foundation that just "laid waste" to hosts of Empire squadrons. Awesome yes. But, come on, really? Terminus' neighbors are really just rabid wolves eager for some meat, but turn to docile dogs once they're led on by some veggie-steak. A single man wearing a personal aura defeats an entire kingdom...whwhwhat? Solve this and that crises by doing nothing with nary a wound, really? Doesn't make for good television - though makes for a good Star Trek multiepisodic arc. Cue in Q for the awesome commentary about the wily ways of psychohistory.
Oh, and I've read all the books and am just going by memory - my "iirc". I especially love the first book (Foundation) which I can't help but buy whenever I see one in a book sale (haven't managed to find a hardbound edition). Whenever I feel 'wuxia-y' or 'xianxia-y', I pick it up and feel the greatness of my multiple mcs through multiple generations (nobody lives forever in this genre so I have to make do with multiple). Hari's omniscience; Salvor's steadfastness; Limmar's guile; Poly's confidence; Hober's wit. Each of these traits are pushed to the max, that you can just imagine, what if you could combine all those in a single mc and then you get a Meng Hao of I Shall Seal The Heavens, or Jiang Chen of Sovereign of the Three Realms. Or my maxed out character in Fallout 4.
At this point this series is a dead loss. They've already plotted out S3, even if they haven't started filming it, which means it's too late to alter the story to make a more faithful adaptation. Instead, I expect it this show to go in the opposite direction and diverge even further from the source material. This is a depressing trend which we've already seen happen with Netflix's "Altered Carbon", Amazon's "Rings of Power", Paramount's "Halo" and of course, "The Witcher". Henry Cavill apparently left the latter show because the writers weren't remaining faithful to the source material. Kudos to him!
Just make your own story APPLE, DISNEY, ECT... Taking a beloved book or IP and then throwing it all out for "Modern Audiences" is dumb and lazy. Make your own movie or show and make it as modern as you want. But quit stealing IPs and ruining them completely. Woke Garbage. Just years of disappointing drivel. But at least I still got the OG books. Better get yours before they "ADAPT" all the OG books too...
Like half of the points you didn't understand were actually explained in the show if you were paying attention and can put the pieces together, as @dead_line already pointed out in another comment. But to be fair there was definitely an over-reliance on fake-outs and arbitrarily withholding information from the audience this season. I felt it was particular egregious to have Hari's fake-out death at the end of one episode, and then Salvor's fake-out death at the end of the very next episode, in the same exact spot nonetheless, especially when it was very very believable and even suggested in both instances that neither deaths were actually permanent. And the whole Spacer plot twist in the final episode was handled poorly as well. Unlike with the Terminus/Vault twist, it was basically impossible for the audience to have forecasted that from the breadcrumbs we were given in previous episodes. They showed the Spacers rejecting Hober's proposal straight up. That being said, I am still enjoying the show for what it is. I had never read the books before I watched season 1, but I did go through and read all 7 of them after season 1 and before season 2. I think overall the show is doing a decent job at keeping true to the spirit of the books without being a direct adaptation. I think the show would be absolutely trash if it was a direct adaptation and would have been cancelled after the first season. If the show followed the books very closely at all, then basically the entire show would be scene after scene of white men sitting across tables and desks from each other talking about stuff that's going on, with no character development whatsoever for anyone. That would be straight up terrible. Even Asimov himself admitted when he set out to write the prequels and sequels 30 years later that there was not enough action or character development in the original trilogy, and if he could go back and rewrite them to have more of that in them, he woud.
I was never a big fan of the books, they were terribly dated in my opinion. So, I'm fine with the writers altering the books to create a fresh, new story. Loving everything they've done so far.
The show is a complete travesty. Hard to believe that Asimov's daughter is letting his work be mutilated like this. It is beyond saving. Even if they wanted to try and steer back to the themes of the books they've wrecked too many of the pillars that the story was based on. - Terminus was important as a planet because of it's lack of minerals and distance to the galactic core. - The entire notion that the Empire was built on centralization and scale versus the Foundations independence and miniaturization (and entire section of a book is around the fact that the Foundation has made person shields - a concept completely foreign to the Empire) - They has so destroyed the entire history of second foundation and the rise of mentalist that the entire shock of the mule's abilities and how psychohistory couldn't predict such an outlying event and why the second foundation had to exist. - So many more big ideas just trampled on by Goyer. I've come to start calling this an "Anti-daption" because it is beyond a loose adaption, it is a version that has complete contempt for the core ideas of the story.
1. It's mentioned multiple times that people assume Demerzel is undergoing the same process as Cleon.
2. Hobor Mallow grew up in the Foundation and lost faith. His story is basically the prodigal son.
3. The only Cleon people follow orders from is Day. Without him Demerzel gives orders.
4. Dawn got his sterility reversed with an injection given to him by Serath.
I like the show. But I didn't read the books. If I had expectations I could easily see me hating it.
Thanks for these 👍
1) But we never see a dawn, day or dusk version of Demerzel. She's literally always the same age. In-universe do they believe they're decanting a new version of her every five years so she never appears to age? I can't remember anyone in-show ever addressing this, which seems a major omission.
@@SkirneSareth mentions it early in the season when she's trying to sus out the Imperium's secret workings. Everyone assumes that Demerzel's also being backed up and decanted just like the Cleons.
I don't like how they changed Demerzel, an iconic character. It's like adapting Gandalf into an witch instead of a wizard.
Having read Foundation series (haven't read Foundation and Earth) and the Robot series (currently reading Robot of Dawn), R. Daneel is my favorite character, and they massacred my boy...
@@s3rs312 so you don’t like her because she’s a girl in this version? If not you might wanna clarify cause the turning a wizard into a witch analogy makes it come off that way
When I recommend this show to anyone i always mention that its not BASED on the books(I listened to them in audio form) but rather INSPIRED by them. Making that distinction us important for me to not go frustrated Nerd mode. Really like it tho
Asimov was an idea man. Character-wise, his robots are more interesting than his people. Same for Arthur Clarke. Readers can recall any number of ideas from Clarke's books, but rarely any characters. This doesn't diminish the importance of their work, but it is also what makes Herbert's Dune so great. You remember both the ideas AND the characters. Ursula LeGuin is another example. Every writer of SF hopes to come up with tales where both characters and ideas are memorable. It ain't easy.
An insightful observation, but there is one "character" that is memorable from AC Clarke's 2001, probably because the novel was adapted into a film, which was followed by a sequel. I'm referring to HAL 9000 of course! Admittedly, HAL was an exception to the rule.
Goyer’s work is generally hit or miss. His work is stronger when collaborating with people like Nolan, Proyas, Wolfman or Del Toro. Dark City was his best sci-fi.
Jarid Harris carries this show. Together with Lee Pace. So I'm glad they brought Hari back.
Lee Pace needs an award NOW!
The most interesting parts of the series are the parts that really have little to nothing to do with the books. If this was a scifi epic that just focused on a crumbling empire, the genetic dynasty (not in the books), and Demerzel it would be a really good scifi series. Anything to do with Gaal, Salvore, and, mostly, Hari especially Terminus and the mentalic planet could be cut and it would be a better scifi series. But it barely resembles Foundation at all.
Totally agree with you.
the genetic dynasty is such interesting and pretty unique concept not really seen or utilised in sci-fi, thats what made me watch the first season, that and the visuals and the atmosphere the show created, if they did stick to those two strengths of theirs and explored those concepts instead of foundation the show would gain cult following, but unfortunately they bogged it down by forcing Asimovs characters into their own divergent universe and the characters and their stories just dont fit or make sense in such setting and as a result it turned rather original and visually stunning show into hot mess thats painful to watch for anyone who actually read and enjoyed all the foundation series.
Bingo, the Cleons are a really good series by themselves but all the rest is a confused mess
@@rehurekj _"the genetic dynasty is such interesting and pretty unique concept not really seen or utilised in sci-fi"_
It's not that unique.
Cloning is a common theme in sci-fi.
The show is clever because of how they use the idea to create 3 clones who are intended to all rule for a limited time, but portrays how this trinity is flawed, inevitably leading to the eventual end of the dynasty and death of their empire.
@@GonzoTehGreat cloning is common, even succession of ones clones or dynasty of clones is not so unheard of( even Star Trek with beaming oneself everywhere may be seen as version of cloning- ones killed and then at the destination ones copy is reassembled with all memories transferred somehow) but keep constantly 3 different copies of oneself forming some sort of family unit, all in different stage of development at the same time raising, influencing/ educating and caring for each other?
sorry, but while theres chance it may have been used in some less well known work before, i never really read or watched any story which has been playing with and developing concept like that.
The show deviates from the books so far that there is no other approach as to treat it as separate entity, loosely related to Asimov's work. Once you do that you can enjoy the show as any other. I've read the books and it was a fantastic experience. Now I've watched two seasons of Foundation and it was a good entertainment. And that's what it is. Entertainment. It's not supposed to engage any demanding audience. Asimov's fans (I am one of them) might be disappointed a bit, but from the other perspective the show is quite pleasant to watch.
I've given up thinking of it as Foundation. There is no shortage of producers who believe they're able to re-imagine the work of others (see Abrams, JJ) in Hollywood. I just hope it's an interesting story.
Didn't read the book. But as a show watcher, I love it. I enjoyed season 2 more than the first. We will see how it goes in future seasons, but I think Foundation will ultimately reach my top 10 list, assuming it gets a conclusion and the writing quality remains roughly the same. Great sci-fi.
its a great show, who cares if its not an exact copy of the book
I found the characters of Gaal and Salvore, so boring I began to wonder if I have become bigoted in my old age.
I stopped watching after season 2, episode 2.
It's not Asimov's Foundation.
For me the Empire storyline was decent if not watched as an Asimov Foundation fan.
Also, visually the Empire scenes were pretty good, where as other planet scenes reminded me of cheap original Star Trek studio sets.
Thank you for you videos.
I was so unhappy with the first series I have not bothered with keeping track of it.
I was excited when I found out season 2 was out. I had cancelled appletv almost a year ago. I actually restarted my subscription just so I could watch foundation season 2. I found myself fast forwarding through more of each episode than I watched and still having a full understanding of the plot. I thoroughly feel that they stretched two episodes into ten. This season was absolutely horrible! I feel like the entire thing was written by a team of teenage girls.
Same Apple tv strategy, same disappointment, same assumptions; yet forgiven but definitely god awful s2. I really hope it was a price to pay for a good s3
From a first season, I was treating it as a story based on Foundation.
I often see people make the argument that characters in the Foundation books had no depth. I don't think so. Many were quite dynamic in their short duration, with Hardin, Mallow, Bayta, and The Mule being the most memorable. (I especially enjoy Trevize, Janov, and Gendibal in Foundation's Edge.)
LOL That episode was also my favorite! I saw Season I as a completely different story. I didn't understand all the swapping, characters, new plots, new events, etc as part of the Foundation story. Reminded me of Karin Slaughter's Will Trent that came to screen. The hero, 6'3, blond Southerner was a shortish, Hispanic with a wavering accent. His partner and boss were race swapped, girlfriend a no-show and a trans character brought in to babysit a dog. But it was the triteness and lack of similarity to the books that were the real problems.
And that's Foundation in a nutshell. Asimov's fans don't see "Foundation" whereas those who never read the book are satisfied. Harry's comeback was a REAL downer since his holographic appearances were such an integral part of the book. All the near deaths / fake deaths became predictable. Loved the Demerzel line. "Altered Carbon" got the same treatment. Apparently writers are rewarded by how far they deviate from the original material.
I think it's for fans of The Expanse / Star Trek who have heard of Foundation.
When the galactic encyclopedia monolith incinerated the guy as he screamed, I clapped.
I am so proud of how they are handling Asimov's legacy.
I think the show runners have taken some of the themes of the books and, most especially, the world of Foundation and crafted it into a fantastic character based story. The Cleon(s) of the show is hands down my favorite character(s) ever written. A genetic dynasty of three ruling clones. Absolutely brilliant! I feel bad for all those so focused on the book they can't see what a brilliant piece of work is being brought to life in this show.
The CORE theme of the books is that broad social and economic forces are more important than individual heroics.
The show literally does the complete opposite. It's like the show writers read the books and hated it so much they decided to produce a show with the same name but the opposite theme just to spite Asimov.
And even as standalone media, it's very mediocre scifi with a big budget and not much else of substance
I gave up at episode 2 of season 1. It felt like they had only ever read a synopsis of the book then decided put their own story over the top. It confused me as I had read the Goyer was a fan of the books. I understand that they are difficult to adapt being lots of discussions in rooms but it would be possible. I do hope one day someone actually adapts the books
I find that watching series that deviate this much from the original story/books takes too much enjoyment away from the experience. "The Foundation" is not the only one. "The Rings of power" comes to mind and the 2nd season of "The Wheel of time" is also getting to the point that I don't enjoy watching it anymore. It is almost as if the writers for these series feel the need to make lots of adaptations to the original in order to prove they are needed. It is possible to do it right. Just look at the new incarnation of Dune. I just hope they continue that trend in the second movie.
I'm glad it was made and am looking forward to season 3 if it arrives. At first i was confused at all the departures from the original story but very soon i learned to appreciate it as a stand alone series that just so happens to share the name and some themes with the books of the same name.
Babylon 5 was the pinnacle of store arc science fiction in my opinion.
We ordered an aged filet mignon and got dayold rib tips
I never read the Empire books, so the changes there never bothered me as much. I read so far in Foundation that it was eventually just Asimov tying up loose ends in his many individual series into one super ret-con to tie everything together. The way I see it, the show is introducing as many story elements as early as possible so that the new crises have some background. It sounds like I'm defending the changes, but they are not all good, like we never got to see Hobor Mallow take control of the conflicts and step up as the Merchant King 😢
I completely agree, the series has nothing to do with the books other than some names and some basic background. That being said, I am enjoying it so long as I don't think of it as Asimov's Foundation.
I'd have fewer issues with these adaptations of beloved original works that diverge WILDLY if only they were competently written/conceived. I may not like what they've done with it, but at least I could say they were made by people who knew what they were doing. But I can't say that. Not only do they stray, but they're sloppy about it. That's the part I can't forgive.
Not having read the books, I had no basis for comparison. I did find some issue also with pacing and continuity, but managed to enjoy it regardless…until the battle of the Invictus.
It annoyed me no end that the writers went to so much trouble bringing hard sci-fi tropes and concepts for both seasons, only to defend into a cheap Star Wars ripoff (of which star wars is a billion dollar franchise based on derivative plot vehicles).
A space battle? Really? And taken straight from the pages of WW2 battle accounts. T
They can swap bodies via a pocket sized teleport device, fold space to travel light years in an instant, but only manage to use old fashioned broadside cannonade and deflection shooting that even now in our modern military can do so much better.
So lazy…
As a non-book watcher, I enjoyed season 2 UP UNTIL the reveal that no one on Terminus died. Like you said, it just cheapens death and now I don't trust a character to actually die.
You should read the books. Asimov wasn't much for characters, but what and who the mule is and why there is a second foundation are imo the best shock of the entire series. It kicks the leg out from the fundamentals of what everyone believed.
@@winsomehax definitely picking up the books soon 👍
I did not have much expectation for this so I am content & I am really enjoying this. I was prepared they're gonna change a lot of stuff but I don't care since it was a long time since I read the books. Season 2 is slightly better for me.
You're right , visuals & Cleon arc are the best parts.
I hate Gaal. Miscast. Insufferable.
Sarvol I like ( and the rest of the cast )
Cleons & Demerzel are the best.
All your critique is on point. But I prefer to watch this than recent SW / ST stuff
Totally agree. Such a sad disappointment! Appreciate your insightful analyses.
Wow, I found the season 2 quite engrossing, IF and WHEN they explained DEATH, how Sheddon got revived, How Gale could live so long etc...
This season was quite what Dune was supposed to be, GAME OF THRONE, in Space...
if they cannot explain DEATH, this is "LOST" REINCARNATE.
They can clone already, which makes Life kinda cheap, why not just clone the whole dead Family of the betrothalled Princess? That should sate her desire for revenge LOL
PS . the same error George Lucs did with using Midichlorian, to explain the Force !
the burger *IS* piza! =0
asimoff was a genius. _JC
I don’t mind changes, it is just the parts that don’t involve the Cleons is so confusing. I really cannot follow what is going on in the Foundation new stories. The Cleons are great, though nothing to do with Foundation and kind of utterly against the larger idea of history vs personality. But I could deal with that because the Cleons are great in the show. But all the other stuff is so messed up. It not only ignored Asimov but it lacks any clear story telling.
Honestly, I couldn't bring myself to watch season 2. I understand creative interpretation, but if you're going to detour so much, why not call it something original. It's ok to say that it was inspired by the books, but calling it the foundation is just to attract the already existing fan base.
Well this season was amazing. I think it's a great tv show.
the first 20 seconds of your video resume mostly all modernity, sadly we are in present of the butchering of a masterpiece
I only watch this show to see my Wife Gaal but I enjoy the Cleons story more. they didn't do a good job making us care about any of the foundations on whatever planet
I love The Cosmic Horror.
S2 was greatly improved and had amazing performances. This is one of the best sci-fi shows out rn. I get it’s not the Foundation fans wanted but that has nothing to do with me 😂
It's a shame, really. Season 2 went the way of so many shows out there. You have a great first season with a lot of time and effort put into the story, worldbuilding, writing and production. So it becomes a success and now you need to quickly continue. The money is there, but not the time. Season 2 isn't telling a story, it's filling screen time. It still looks good, but that's about it. Everything feels random. There are no rules. Things happen, because they need to happen, not because it makes sense. People get captured, when they need to get captured and they escape, when they need to escape. The production value is still there, but without a coherent story, it's senseless. Season 1 made me feel for the bombardment of two planets. It was outrageous without ever showing me the people before. Season 2 on the other hand had me feel nothing about the destruction of Terminus. They even felt the need for a character to say that it was an atrocity. I didn't care. And I was right to not care, because they all survived anyway. But I didn't care about that either. At this point it's a mess and I don't think I'll be watching season 3.
I just dropped in to see if season 2 (which I didn't even know happened) was as bad as I had heard season 1 was. Thanks for the review.
I struggled with season 2 and I didn't even read the books.
I know you didn't want to get ranty.. but the actors playing Gaal, Salvor and Sareth were very poor, shown up by the excellent actors around them. Maybe it was the script rather than their acting abilities. But good grief I found them aggravating. Thanks for the review.
I think this is just another example of people with a lot of money purchasing credibility of an established story and then co-opting it to do there own thing. It happened with I Robot too. I am very disappointed.
In this case I like the TV show more than the books. Most readers look for memorable characters and beautiful prose. I like Asimov but he really excels in neither. Foundation has many Characters but few that stand out and his writing style is workmanlike. To portray such a vast era as he does, that boils down mostly to men in rooms debating philosophical differences is impossible for a television series. Asimov’s strength is in his ideas which he delivers in spades. Ideas that turned up time an again in space opera movies like Star Wars, Star Trek, ect.
Is it possible that the Empire content is coming from the Empire books? I haven’t read Pebble in the Sky and the other two, but could that content be in there? I’m planning on reading them before the end of the year, so we shall see
I am sorry dude. This version of Foundation is just completely incoherent to me. There were some dramatic moments in season 2, esp #8. But jeezus WTF this is just some science fiction show. It has some names from the Azimov books, but WTF.
I hated all the woo-woo of the psychic planet
The gale salvor harry plot is really the weakest.
I loved the first few episodes of season 1. Then along came terminus…
Season 1. Split into two threads. Empire and Foundation. The empire story line was pretty good. Well acted well written. The foundation stuff was awful with the sole exception of Jared Harris. The genetic dynasty is actually a great idea to allow some continuation. The stability it brings mirrors the imperial stability and sameness and its creaking shows the rot setting in for the empire. Having seldon around throws away the power of psycho history and the crisis predictions and their eventual failure.
Season 2. There are still some remains of the best imperial stuff. But it's slipping. I still don't care about gaal, or salvor (terrible acting). They ruin the second foundation idea and the shock of the mule is completely lost.. demerzel remains a good character well acted. But.... magic Sheldon. Magic vault.
In short , woke inserts, terrible choices and the bad is now overpowering even the good imperial storylines and crumbling stability.
I don't hate the show but I also don't like it. It suffers a lot... and I mean a lot from lazy writing as it was pointed in the review. Everybody dies but actually live. Gaal is becoming to much of a Mary Sue for my liking. I love Jared Harris but his "resurection" is just bullcrap.
The writers have tangled themselves so hard they really struggle to untie the knots and it shows in the final episode. The whole double-double crossing of Hober and the Spacers was a bit lame. Empire has 1000+ ships but attac the Invictus with just one and 6 fighters and it's done. Then one ship crashes onto the planed and it is destroyed but everybody has time to get into the vault that has become a space ship. I mean Harry Seldon was not a phycho-historian he was Einstein.
The Empire arc is - as in Season 1 - the most interesting, but Demezel havin the qube is a very strange move.
The writers need to dial down a notch it's just too much.
I gave up after S3, episode 2. The writing is terrible. It puts me in mind of young kids playing made-up games - "Now this happens!" "Yeah! And then this happens!" etc. etc. And I'm sorry, but Gaal and Salvor are very poorly acted. Lee Pace and Jared Harris are both good, but they're not enough to save this.
I totaly disagre wirh this.. season 2 was even better then 1. And the changes needed be... maybe a little bit less woke stuff .. but it was on the down low..
Bad, bad writing. Harry was doing fine as an Hologram. He was resurrected so he could die again!? Also the whole, we had it all planed thing in episode 10 was ridiculous, as was Terminus being destroyed by a falling spaceship? Were they living on an egg? The episode in where Dawn & Dusk discover they have much less memory than they should could have lead to something, but it was just thrown away. The Harry/Gale/Salvor mentalic boot camp made no sense. Why couldn't Gale return to Trantor, where she would start the second foundation herself. And finally, How the hell did Demerzel get the Prime Radiant? Very bad writing....
My only residual interest is the empire plot. As you say not part of the original story but it could be a good story in its own right. The core concept of Asimov in the original trilogy was the idea of psych history. That a sufficiently large body of humans would follow a statistically predictable pattern. That idea has either been misunderstood or corrupted into the idea of precognition. Dune does that better.
I really like the empire plots, but F this last episode...
Lazy sh*tty writing
One must remember that a one to one copying of a book any book on to screen is a very hard thing to do
See LOTR even there it's not perfect and they tried to get it as best they could and LOTR is seen as the gold standard of book to screen
And i do agree that they stray a lot i. This but one must remember that this to do it justice and do a one to one book to screen of foundation
You'll going to need 5 years of 20 one hour episodes at least
And then you'll be having the cost
20 million per episode well that's a lot of money and it then needs to ne a whopping success to have any hope of recup that money
So there's a reason that what we've gotten is not what was written in the books
And if you go in to it whit that premise its a fairly series not great but not bad either
So let's see what happens with it in season 3 if it ever gets here at all
Just saying
Read the Robots Series....and than you'll know who Demerzel is......God , kids nowadays...!!!!
Tbh, I found Foundation childish despite the great cast and acting. They weren’t enough to outweigh the ridiculous play battles and fights. The kids running around with mock guns was just silly. Small screen issues?? 🤷♀️
This show was so disappointing on so many levels. I did find the Cleon storyline somewhat engaging in S1, but the robot subplot was a total departure (given the sequels written by other authors, it could be argued that they were never part of Asimov's original vision). The ending of S1 took me right out completely. The plot armor was strong with our leading lady finding her mother(?) in a stasis pod underwater. Coincidence? More likely Rings Of Power envy, as to who can screw up an IP faster.
Its not bad but not Foundation
Here's a controversial take: the books were great for all the moments of awesome, but fails in making realistic antagonists - they're dumb as f! The Empire wasn't really anything to be feared, what with the op whisperships of the Foundation that just "laid waste" to hosts of Empire squadrons. Awesome yes. But, come on, really? Terminus' neighbors are really just rabid wolves eager for some meat, but turn to docile dogs once they're led on by some veggie-steak. A single man wearing a personal aura defeats an entire kingdom...whwhwhat? Solve this and that crises by doing nothing with nary a wound, really? Doesn't make for good television - though makes for a good Star Trek multiepisodic arc. Cue in Q for the awesome commentary about the wily ways of psychohistory.
Oh, and I've read all the books and am just going by memory - my "iirc". I especially love the first book (Foundation) which I can't help but buy whenever I see one in a book sale (haven't managed to find a hardbound edition). Whenever I feel 'wuxia-y' or 'xianxia-y', I pick it up and feel the greatness of my multiple mcs through multiple generations (nobody lives forever in this genre so I have to make do with multiple). Hari's omniscience; Salvor's steadfastness; Limmar's guile; Poly's confidence; Hober's wit. Each of these traits are pushed to the max, that you can just imagine, what if you could combine all those in a single mc and then you get a Meng Hao of I Shall Seal The Heavens, or Jiang Chen of Sovereign of the Three Realms. Or my maxed out character in Fallout 4.
At this point this series is a dead loss. They've already plotted out S3, even if they haven't started filming it, which means it's too late to alter the story to make a more faithful adaptation. Instead, I expect it this show to go in the opposite direction and diverge even further from the source material.
This is a depressing trend which we've already seen happen with Netflix's "Altered Carbon", Amazon's "Rings of Power", Paramount's "Halo" and of course, "The Witcher". Henry Cavill apparently left the latter show because the writers weren't remaining faithful to the source material. Kudos to him!
Just make your own story APPLE, DISNEY, ECT... Taking a beloved book or IP and then throwing it all out for "Modern Audiences" is dumb and lazy. Make your own movie or show and make it as modern as you want. But quit stealing IPs and ruining them completely. Woke Garbage. Just years of disappointing drivel. But at least I still got the OG books. Better get yours before they "ADAPT" all the OG books too...
Like half of the points you didn't understand were actually explained in the show if you were paying attention and can put the pieces together, as @dead_line already pointed out in another comment. But to be fair there was definitely an over-reliance on fake-outs and arbitrarily withholding information from the audience this season. I felt it was particular egregious to have Hari's fake-out death at the end of one episode, and then Salvor's fake-out death at the end of the very next episode, in the same exact spot nonetheless, especially when it was very very believable and even suggested in both instances that neither deaths were actually permanent. And the whole Spacer plot twist in the final episode was handled poorly as well. Unlike with the Terminus/Vault twist, it was basically impossible for the audience to have forecasted that from the breadcrumbs we were given in previous episodes. They showed the Spacers rejecting Hober's proposal straight up.
That being said, I am still enjoying the show for what it is. I had never read the books before I watched season 1, but I did go through and read all 7 of them after season 1 and before season 2. I think overall the show is doing a decent job at keeping true to the spirit of the books without being a direct adaptation. I think the show would be absolutely trash if it was a direct adaptation and would have been cancelled after the first season. If the show followed the books very closely at all, then basically the entire show would be scene after scene of white men sitting across tables and desks from each other talking about stuff that's going on, with no character development whatsoever for anyone. That would be straight up terrible. Even Asimov himself admitted when he set out to write the prequels and sequels 30 years later that there was not enough action or character development in the original trilogy, and if he could go back and rewrite them to have more of that in them, he woud.
I was never a big fan of the books, they were terribly dated in my opinion. So, I'm fine with the writers altering the books to create a fresh, new story. Loving everything they've done so far.
I started watching series 1 but lost interest about half way through, series 2 doesn't interest me at all.
The show is a complete travesty. Hard to believe that Asimov's daughter is letting his work be mutilated like this. It is beyond saving. Even if they wanted to try and steer back to the themes of the books they've wrecked too many of the pillars that the story was based on.
- Terminus was important as a planet because of it's lack of minerals and distance to the galactic core.
- The entire notion that the Empire was built on centralization and scale versus the Foundations independence and miniaturization (and entire section of a book is around the fact that the Foundation has made person shields - a concept completely foreign to the Empire)
- They has so destroyed the entire history of second foundation and the rise of mentalist that the entire shock of the mule's abilities and how psychohistory couldn't predict such an outlying event and why the second foundation had to exist.
- So many more big ideas just trampled on by Goyer.
I've come to start calling this an "Anti-daption" because it is beyond a loose adaption, it is a version that has complete contempt for the core ideas of the story.
This show is a grift.
dude just cited buffy the vampire slayer as good writing .....