Hey I noticed something with these tests. If you skip to 10:29 you notice the configuration of the hanger literally hanging below the steel, allowing the quick link move out of the way. In a real scenario you almost never have this. The hanger is almost always against a rock and not actually just hanging there, allowing there to actually be a binding against the rock and the quicklink. This may be why you were not seeing the quickdraw breaking.
I could see the problem being that the ancor carabiener can move out of the way on the drop tower, but cannot move in real life because the rock is stopping it.
i agree. there should be another hanger location more upwards on the beam. like maybe around 5-10cm more up?( thats about 2-4 inches for our imperial dinosaur friends :-* ♥♥♥) I would also love to see the anchor carabiner be loaded with around 50kg, representing a gear bag or sth like that on e.g. a big wall climb. (although probably wont make too much of a difference i guess)
That's right, we can clearly see the quickdraw being pull at the right angle because the quickling move out of the way in the back (like you say, the rock would have stop it in real situation).
Hi there, I am working in the building industry in NYC and we do use harnesses, carabiners and ropes for fall protection . The fall protection equipment is strictly regulated by OSHA. It looks clunky, heavy, not ergonomic and not really safe. It doesn't seem to be influenced by the experience gained in rock climbing and mountaineering. The few OSHA inspectors that I met didn't seem to have experience of how this equipment performs in wild. It looks that the philosophers that conceive OSHA regulations go from the concept stage straight to writing the regulations and enforcement, rejecting the physical trials and real world experience all together. I would like to see somebody putting their ware to real test, both on testing rigs and in practice. Hope that you take the challenge and spare nothing.
I'm not sure anyone knows. There's the same thing in Australia. So long as you are using an "approved" harness and the inspector can see that it's an "approved" harness nobody cares.
You should be able to look up what inspection criteria is used for the equipment you use. It'll be printed on it somewhere. UIAA is the climbing standard
Hey there, as someone well versed in OSHA fall protection standards there's a couple things you have to take into consideration before you start complaining about the equipment. 1. Your company is probably cheaping out on the equipment. The less expensive stuff fits worse, is heavier, and most often comes in a larger form factor then the more expensive stuff. 2. All equipment has a minimum set of standards to meet. This is set primarily through ANSI. Part of those standards include real world mock ups of falls using the equipment, attachment devices, worse case scenarios, and weighted dummies with g-force sensors. 3. The majority of OSHA rules and regulations are written in blood. It takes years to change any single rule in OSHA because lawyers from all affected industries are involved. Unless multiple people die first, it's not going to be made a rule.
I work In industrial tech rescue. We use the higher NFPA standard when we put people on our rigging. We also inspect equipment used by workers supplied by the contractors they work for. It’s not uncommon for me to reject poorly maintained or actual non compliant equipment. Don’t ever trust what you are given. Make sure it’s undamaged and rated for your work. Be safe my friend!
It´s so dangerous to stand up there during the drop. The chain can easyly hurt you at those speeds and it can be fatal if it hits your unprotected head.
I agree! Probably only a full motorcycle helmet will protect from the unusual angles that things will fly at him. A thick heavy blanket strung up on pullies so that it can be moved in and out of the way is probably the simplest full-body protection. Fix one edge to the beam that he is standing on. It hangs down during setup. Then pull the bottom edge up to the top beam to make a wall, but more like a "J" so that he has some floor protection and space.
It’s interesting to read the comments from climbers in different industries/disciplines. While, I’m not disagreeing, I thought it interesting that you folks pointed this out. I can see your point. However, it didn’t cross my mind as I’m a climbing arborist and we “rig out” 400lb -1200lb pieces out of the trees we are climbing with all our blocks, slings, and ropes within a few inches/feet (depending on situations) from our bodies while holding chainsaws and sometimes being close to 100 ft off the ground. All of which is compliance with ANSI z133. Please don’t misunderstand. I understand your point, and can see the danger. I just thought it an interesting statement and thought I’d explain the conditions of a typical climbing arborist and why your comment struck me as interesting. Safe climbing to you all! 👊
@@EricJemAndes I can understand your point. My concern is that when demonstrating a "part" for safety and the test-setup is dangerous by itself. If I start a test setup and realize that parts are being accelerated to extreme speeds, then even as a non-pro, I think about changing the test setup in such a way that safety is guaranteed, or I stop the test. Rules or not, the chain accelerates like a bullet and has devastating consequences if it collides with a body part, it's as simple as that.
I can not for the life of me understand why this channel isn’t bigger or growing faster. Ryan’s a quirky guy but he’s respectable & doing good work. I fabricate ultra4’s & build motorcycles. This stuff is fascinating & there’s no way in hell I’d start climbing without having some of this knowledge. Never trusting what a manufacturer stamps on a package. Especially if it’s made overseas.
I can’t describe how important this channel is. I have dreams about gear fear and I literally was hoping for this video as I went to sleep last night. Damn, Ryan. Get out of my head!
So I’m not into this sport at ALL……but can extensions be used? Maybe like specific use areas where there are too many carabiners, maybe you could attach a double looped rope then your carabiner so it doesn’t get pinched during a possible failure 🤔 again I’m not in the sport, just on my couch watching UA-cam’s Edit: the double top loop being only like 6” diameter specifically used as a “soft” attach point*
Maybe was recommended this because I work with horses. A horse puts all kinds of weird loads on any carabiner or clip, and we use them often (some people I've worked for use climbing carabiners for horses). This really helps explain how they fail! I didn't realize how a bad 'anchor loop' can undermine their strength, and it's terribly common to see home-welded gates and stalls that basically force a carabiner into an awkward position like this.
I was out of the climbing scene for a few years and got back in with high angle rope rescue. It amazed me how far gear has come since the late 90's, early 00's. Between all the new types of climbing gear and selection we live in amazing times.
For the non-climbers here, Gear typically isn't going to fail on you in normal usage. Provided that you are using it properly. In climbing it's extremely important to not put any of your gear in a situation where you could be levering it against something. Static vs dynamic loading can result in a bad time. TLDR ; take care of your gear,inspect before every use and don't get creative with your uses for it and you're unlikely to see any dangerous failures while climbing. Nearly the entirety of accidents that occur are the result of negligence either from experienced/cockiness or being distracted during your checks.
Possibly a dumb question (sorry) but do carabiners wear out to a point where they're unsafe for climbing, but still "functional"? Would such things be super cheap to purchase or obtain?
@@neshbro All good, for the most part carabiner damage that climbers see wouldn't interfere with using it for other things, However the cost of purchasing them new at $10-15 is rarely much more than you'd find used anyway. The exception to this would be autolocking carabiners. The nicer ones can easily run upwards of $30-50 each, in which case if you found them cheap used it wouldn't hurt to snag them. Finding used climbing gear, carabiners included can be a bit tricky though. Theres some things climbers absolutely will not want to purchase used for safety reasons, and as such also don't sell them once they've passed their lifetime in the off chance someone does try to climb with it.
Standing so close to the cable, even above it as demonstrated, seems horrendously dangerous; look at the backlash that occurs at around 10:41 and you can see a segment of the rope (and whatever may be, or have been, attached to it) is slingshot up and it comes just a few centimeters from striking you! It reminds me of when people connect all sorts of poorly-thought-out, quickly-rigged tow lines with heavy hooks (or even carabiners!) attached to them to try to pull out stuck cars in the winter. Even the elasticity in many ropes can snap if and when they break or something fails with such energy, it can be lethal. I would say, _If you won't stand beneath it, do not stand adjacent to, or even above it!_ - j q t -
@@alecsyogacorner yeah the impulse of momentum for rope hitting you is much higher because the surface area of the impact is so much smaller. It's why you'd rather catch a rock than a knife. Obviously nylon whiplash is nothing compared to something like steel wire, but still has recorded fatalities, even in contexts like "tug of war". The two ball bounce experiment (put a tennis ball on top of a basket ball) shows that being above the rope isn't necessarily any guarantee of safety.
was my first thought when i saw the first drop. Odd he doesn't know this. Anytime you do anything with rope, cable, etc that puts a load on it, always stand back at least as far as the rope.
Funny how you have an obsession for climbing safety but stand next to exploding carbiners, swinging ropes and other eventual parts without protection or glasses :O
Very interesting. Mountain Safety Research started just to do testing of ice axes (wood shafts) and biners and branched out from there. There was a drop tower and the works. There was a bunch of gloves tested for belaying as well. Anyway it began just as a newsletter on equipment. But the Stuff being sold by REI and other sources (late 1960's) was so bad and the test results were rejected by REI and other so MSR began selling the best products tested and then making superior products like the ice axes. Too bad there was no Internet! Here you are doing exactly the same thing 50 years later. (MSR had good instrumentation and equipment because is was started by Larry Penberthy and located at Penberthy Electromelt in Seattle.) The REI Red Locking Carabiner that everyone used I recall was breaking in tests at a few hundred pounds. The REI ice axes were breaking at 150 to 300lbs in side loading simulating various belays. The first MSR product was a fiberglass kit that doubled the strength of the shafts.
Knot head here: some things in climbing aren't done for technical reasons, they done because they are easy to check and verify. The mighty figure 8 knot is actually on par with a few other knots in terms of performance, but the figure 8 knot is very easy to check from a distance. The test in this video shows that loading the second carabiner might be ok in some situations, but you want rules that are always true for people to not get hurt.
I snapped a carabiner during a normal climbing fall and I have a theory. The carabiner was pulled up such that the spine acted as a lever with the load by the nose (pushing up against the underside of the hanger), the fulcrum in the middle of the spine resting on the top of the opposite side of the hanger and the force applied downward at the dogbone end. The force would snap the carabiner like a weak crowbar. I am convinced that, if the hanger has a diagonal slant, you must clip through the underside of the hanger to avoid leveraging of the spine.
I’d really love to see you do these tests again, but move the hangar to the top of that beam so its actually simulating an actual climbing situation. The chain is moving past the plane of the hangar which makes it act like the chain isn’t there at all
maybe put some more foam into the LS3-Box on the sides. coud easily imagine a scenario where the LS3 Box gets reverbed between the dummy weight and the ground. in which case it could go flying inside the case hitting the sides at max speed with a SIDEWAYS force peak, which these things potentially weren't designed for. Love the content! The drop tower is awesome!
also maybe the LS3-box doesn't need to be attached to the dummy, and hence undergo all the same beating as the dummy does. After all you're not (in this case) measuring the forces acting on the dummy -- you're measuring the forces at the piece being tested. Even though again in this configuration these forces should be pretty much the same, still in general case makes sense to put the measuring link as close as possible to the expected breaking poing and also in such a way that it doesn't smash on the ground or into the dummy in the event of successful breakage.
@@aurtisanminer2827 It’s not about attention span. Most of the videos can be summarized in a simple table and a few photos. Don’t need minutes of goofing around.
I've been hanging around outside the wrong sides of high rises on the island of Oahu for many years. I have never and, never would load a beener even remotely close to any of those situs. I was using aluminum bright locking d's since b4 you were born. With the next stop straight down 400 to 700 feet down. And if you want a really safe knot to actually hang on I always use a bowline...on a bight. Two loops. One slightly smaller than the other. A shock load may break the first loop but, since it absorbed most of the shock...the other can still hold. Never load a beener latterly.
Seeing the weight slam into the rubber pit makes me wonder how much momentum/force it's still carrying at that point. Would be cool to have some way to measure the force when that impact occurs, bc that'd correspond to how hard you'd deck if your gear blewout in a similar situation.
@@midship_nc thats hard to compare, as with the human body being bigger, the impact would be spread on more rubber and thus the decellaration would pontentially happen much more consistently and thus with a potentially much lower force peak. also the human body is able to absorb some of the falls energy by bending and breaking, where as most devices arent compressable. i think if Ryan was falling off the tower he'd have a good chance of survival, assuming he falls into the rubber pit. potentially even with only smaller injuries, depending on how controlled his landing is.
So interesting thing from a structural perspective here: When you look at the case for proper loading you get a formula like this: ΔL=(σ*L)/E Where ΔL is the change in the length due to tension σ is the tensile stress E is the elastic young's modulus (a material property) So the deformation leading to breakage in pure tension is a linear relationship to all the variables. But when you look at the improper case, which could be idealized as a pure beam bending problem: δ = (PL^3)/(3IE) Where: δ is the bend from the initial position (think of a beam sticking off from a wall, this is the distance that the very end moves) P is the force applied L is the distance between the force and the connection point I is the 2nd moment of inertia (a property of the shape of the beam) E is again the young's modulus In this case you can see that although the force is still linear, this distance adds a CUBED value That's why you can't break the carabiner in pue tension.
Props for repping Leoni Meadows. I miss that place. Now that our Grizzly Flat house is gone, it is unlikely I will see it again. Nice video, gents. Keep sending and pray the Leap opens in March!
Hey, why don't you place the force gauge at the top of the tower? You could have a secondary elastic rope in parallel to the device your testing, that way when you do you drop, your force gauge won't smack the ground, might last a bit longer
i wonder if it makes a difference if it is well used and banged on a rock many times carabiner or a brand new one. I am no expert but i have heard that microfractures are a real thing.
Congratulations on the drop tower!! I love what we're about to see!! Hope you can get some cover up there. Lots of small pieces flying around!! Be safe and keep up the great work! Peace and love from the Red River Gorge in Kentucky!
Not sure if its in the plans for finishing up the tower, but you might consider bolting/welding a thick plate to the beam and attaching your hangers to that. I foresee a swiss cheese support beam when you start drilling more and more anchor bolt holes. It would also give you more room to position the hanger in various ways, like how several comments mention needing the "rock" below the hanger so the quicklink has nowhere to go to get out of the way. Also, I have rigged stuff where the biner has become caught in a bad position (ie: on the nose, gate or part way down the spine) after people clip in/out and move things around, and it doesn't correct itself because of the other piece. Without noticing and fixing it, this can cause cross loading (Always check your rig!).
Good point. When leading, the draw/carabiner gets pulled sideways into less than ideal positions and then has to rotate when you fall. The more junk in the bolt hanger, the more likely it won't be able to rotate freely.
Maybe some tape could hold some of the connection points in place, could keep it from cross loading and wasting good gear. 10, 10, 10, on those perfect decents, ok One more shameless plug for ya!
This information is incredibly useful. Thank you for taking the time to do this. I am a highrise technician and there isn't alot of useful real world info out there.
It’s always nice to see people highlighting the importance of factoring in failure analysis in designs Especially when something failing might risk injury or worse Its not too difficult and can be the difference between stitches or a funeral
Hey man, this video is really well done and interesting, but PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE set up a camera rig at the top of the drop tower to capture the footage of them breaking. That rope or other debris could snap back at you and potentially kill you. My friends dad was killed in his backyard while he was tightening a hold-down. It snapped and the end that came back hit his neck, cutting him so deeply that he did not make it to the hospital. Testing scenarios are controllable, and should be layered with safety. Stay safe man!
The thing is in any sort of top managed site (multi pitch belay, rappel, etc) if you’re transferring the load point from something behind to something in front it becomes extremely difficult to get the back carabiner out. For example: you came to an anchor of a 2+ pitch climb with rap rings, you clip your anchor in behind the rap rings as recommended here. Later you go to rap off, you thread your rope through the rings go on to the rope to clean the anchor but because you’re weighting the rings they are pinching the carabiners of the anchor and you can’t get the damn anchor off! So you have to unweight the rope and the anchor which can be very difficult if you’re on any terrain near/past vertical. Anyone who has done a few multi pitches has experienced this in some form and knows it’s consistently some of the most annoying faffing bullshit when you can’t get a biner out
Are there some graphs for like 10 kN, 15 kN, and 20kN for the necessary height+weight necessary to achieve the given force? Maybe even just a continuous graph that shows the entire continuum, or at least 3+ graphs on one grid. Would have been nice to show that here for those who aren't familiar with the forces and heights for their body weight.
I really like this new hunting for a discount code. I currently am in no need for some carabiners, but I like the challenge. Also great video as always
Same! Also realizing they have Aliens was nice and wouldn't have happened had I not done the code hunt. Now, off to explain to my wife why I needed a new rack pack and some lockers....
@@hal259 I don't know if I was fast enough, or if it helps, but here it goes: Hello Mrs. Hal's wife, I myself am a climber and can confirm that your spouse Hal is in desperate need of new/extra gear to be even safer out there when climbing. Trust me, you both profit from it. Hal gets some new stuff, while you are allowed to bring up their new gear, whenever they refuse or are late to do chores. Have a great day - V. Fink
This channel is getting better by the day. Thank you for answering all the questions we have with climbing equipment, and educating us about stuff that would otherwise never have crossed our minds. You are making climbing safer with each vid you film 🙂
This just proves what sailors and boaters have known for years, more ropes=more fail points, and metal shackles/carabiners don't function correctly when a tangential force is applied. Love seeing this kinda content!
3:25 you sure its safe to stay up there during test? I feel like depending on how It broke/how the rope behaves and what sort of shrapnel is released, maybe it would be accident prone
As an apprentice tree climber, this channel should be part of the training videos. Trees aren't nearly as terrible as rocks on gear! ...Unless you chop things with a saw. Still, this is awesome and keep up the great work!
Like all your videos, this one was particularly interesting. This should be required viewing for all climbers, for so many reasons. Thank you, again, for your comprehensive testing.
Don't fucking leave quicklinks to bail in the middle of a pitch! They rust shut and can't be easily removed by a leader without a wrench, so someone has to come clean up your mess. Leave an actual carabiner if you have to bail.
Hey, I only discovered your channels about a month ago and now 60% of the videos I watch are from you, I love your channels because many videos show you exactly why you should do everything right when climbing and how deadly even the smallest mistake can be, thank you for the time and effort you put into your videos to share your experiences with the world, thank you! Greetings from Germany
You really need a tripod or some mounting for your camera, AND a shield for you to stand behind. You are just asking to get hit and punctured with flying metal while standing there next it like that. Also CONGRATULATIONS! Video one with the drop tower posted! Super excited to see future tests!
That was great. I like a little bit of you and Bobby joking around. All sorts of interesting things you are learning about how gear doesn't behave as expected when actually falling through the air.
Been climbing trees for 31 yrs., taking trees apart with rigging gear, over houses, etc. Use heavy , positive locking beeners, thicker rope and heavier rigging than you think you need, heavy belt,/ harness. Use common sense. Never had a problem.
Wow, very interesting. I work as an arborist my self so I dont really use those kind of anchor points, but i know some tree climbers who chokes a rope with a biner around a branch or stem. That will heavily side load the carabiner. Some still claim that it doesnt matter but I was tought in school its a big no no. I’m def a new subscriber. Thanks!
As someone who doesn't climb, all this taught me was that there are many things that can break for your carabiner, but all these things also rely on that carabiner so it's smart to make sure it's set up right!
I would catch my linegrip with a dynamic backup rope, rather than let it smash into the ground over and over ... can´t imagine thats very healthy for any kind of electronics.
I would like to get some climbing gear and practice some really basic stuff as part of prepping/preparedness. I don't have time and energy to do this as a full blown hobby, but I want to have enough experience and gear to be ready for as many scenarios as I reasonably can in this crazy world of ours, and I've already got plenty of the food/water/home supplies/cold weather gear etc. so I'm really glad channels like this exist for not only regulars, but also people looking to branch out and learn some basics of other hobbies just in case.
I was wondering what it would take to do abrasion/ wear tests on items like aluminum rappel rings and carabiners? Somehow (consistently) load 1kn, and then used a gear/motor/pulleys to pass 500-1000ft of rope through them. Use micrometers to guage the dept of wear and maybe even laser temp them or let them cool off between runs to simulate real world? I know u guys would do great once the rigging is thought out!
Love your videos. I have a question about this test. (Sorry if it’s been asked already) So the carabiner that you’re trying to break, would it possibly break easier if the one below it couldn’t move? Like if you moved the bolt up a few inches. The carabiner below it is hanging on an overhang so it has the ability to move backwards and not put as much force on the one you’re trying to break. Maybe it’s a fun variable if you ever try this again? Hopefully this made sense. Thanks!
THIS is one thing that so many people don't understand. ALL our gear is rated for a static loading. Dynamic loads are a whole other story and the gear may not perform the way you expect. THIS is why we need large safety factors THIS is also why in Industrial height work and industrial rigging we avoid dynamic loadings at all cost. The regulations I work under require us to use zipper style fall arrest lanyards in pretty much all height work. A/ to prevent failures in the rig and B/ to minimize the damage to the human. We are also taught that our rigs should be in straight lines and unless the point is explicitly designed for multiple attachments, there should only be one item in any given hole.
I do hope your further plans for the drop tower include an armored cabin for personnel that stays on top to watch the experiments. I'd be scared that the backlash of the ropes could amputate arms, legs or heads. That would lead to a less than perfect descent and I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to see gear break - not gear users
I still think Zac Wronski's gear failed in the way he described. If you notice in his video, that bolt placement is on a part of the rock that is less than vertical, so when you load the carabiner it is going to put greater side loading-torque on the carabiner than in the vertical setup you have on your drop tower.
Hey! Whiskeyjacks!.... climbing area mostly put up by Ryan Munroe (& friends) and author of the newer Kenora rock climbing book (ver2) & illustrated by Mike Brown. A place I still need to climb if I wasn’t so busy climbing and hanging out with friends at echo creek! Ugh!... so much to climb, so little time!!
Just a tip, you are on the slingshot/whip zone, you should probably get a screen to protect you or release it from further away, you can see one of the shots the carabiner flew straight up, if it hits you its gonna leave a mark...
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Hey I noticed something with these tests. If you skip to 10:29 you notice the configuration of the hanger literally hanging below the steel, allowing the quick link move out of the way. In a real scenario you almost never have this. The hanger is almost always against a rock and not actually just hanging there, allowing there to actually be a binding against the rock and the quicklink. This may be why you were not seeing the quickdraw breaking.
I was going to mention this as well
The wall under the hanger is missing to cremte the lever
Yeah, we need rock to cremte the lever.
We need to cremte a lever using rock
@@eyescreamcake we need a lot more rockoidal cremte levering!
I could see the problem being that the ancor carabiener can move out of the way on the drop tower, but cannot move in real life because the rock is stopping it.
i agree. there should be another hanger location more upwards on the beam. like maybe around 5-10cm more up?( thats about 2-4 inches for our imperial dinosaur friends :-* ♥♥♥)
I would also love to see the anchor carabiner be loaded with around 50kg, representing a gear bag or sth like that on e.g. a big wall climb. (although probably wont make too much of a difference i guess)
@@lordofnothing. here's the best thing: they don't even use imperial, they use customary, where some units just have different values than imperial
That's right, we can clearly see the quickdraw being pull at the right angle because the quickling move out of the way in the back (like you say, the rock would have stop it in real situation).
Came here to say the same thing! Definitely not having a wall behind the bottom of the anchor alters the results
Was just about to say the same thing.
Hi there, I am working in the building industry in NYC and we do use harnesses, carabiners and ropes for fall protection . The fall protection equipment is strictly regulated by OSHA. It looks clunky, heavy, not ergonomic and not really safe. It doesn't seem to be influenced by the experience gained in rock climbing and mountaineering. The few OSHA inspectors that I met didn't seem to have experience of how this equipment performs in wild. It looks that the philosophers that conceive OSHA regulations go from the concept stage straight to writing the regulations and enforcement, rejecting the physical trials and real world experience all together. I would like to see somebody putting their ware to real test, both on testing rigs and in practice. Hope that you take the challenge and spare nothing.
Ive had the same thought.
I'm not sure anyone knows. There's the same thing in Australia. So long as you are using an "approved" harness and the inspector can see that it's an "approved" harness nobody cares.
You should be able to look up what inspection criteria is used for the equipment you use. It'll be printed on it somewhere. UIAA is the climbing standard
Hey there, as someone well versed in OSHA fall protection standards there's a couple things you have to take into consideration before you start complaining about the equipment. 1. Your company is probably cheaping out on the equipment. The less expensive stuff fits worse, is heavier, and most often comes in a larger form factor then the more expensive stuff. 2. All equipment has a minimum set of standards to meet. This is set primarily through ANSI. Part of those standards include real world mock ups of falls using the equipment, attachment devices, worse case scenarios, and weighted dummies with g-force sensors. 3. The majority of OSHA rules and regulations are written in blood. It takes years to change any single rule in OSHA because lawyers from all affected industries are involved. Unless multiple people die first, it's not going to be made a rule.
I work In industrial tech rescue. We use the higher NFPA standard when we put people on our rigging. We also inspect equipment used by workers supplied by the contractors they work for. It’s not uncommon for me to reject poorly maintained or actual non compliant equipment. Don’t ever trust what you are given. Make sure it’s undamaged and rated for your work. Be safe my friend!
It´s so dangerous to stand up there during the drop. The chain can easyly hurt you at those speeds and it can be fatal if it hits your unprotected head.
I agree! Probably only a full motorcycle helmet will protect from the unusual angles that things will fly at him. A thick heavy blanket strung up on pullies so that it can be moved in and out of the way is probably the simplest full-body protection. Fix one edge to the beam that he is standing on. It hangs down during setup. Then pull the bottom edge up to the top beam to make a wall, but more like a "J" so that he has some floor protection and space.
Dude actually has a point. I cringed when i saw it whip back like that.
He said be kind
It’s interesting to read the comments from climbers in different industries/disciplines. While, I’m not disagreeing, I thought it interesting that you folks pointed this out. I can see your point. However, it didn’t cross my mind as I’m a climbing arborist and we “rig out” 400lb -1200lb pieces out of the trees we are climbing with all our blocks, slings, and ropes within a few inches/feet (depending on situations) from our bodies while holding chainsaws and sometimes being close to 100 ft off the ground. All of which is compliance with ANSI z133. Please don’t misunderstand. I understand your point, and can see the danger. I just thought it an interesting statement and thought I’d explain the conditions of a typical climbing arborist and why your comment struck me as interesting. Safe climbing to you all! 👊
@@EricJemAndes I can understand your point. My concern is that when demonstrating a "part" for safety and the test-setup is dangerous by itself. If I start a test setup and realize that parts are being accelerated to extreme speeds, then even as a non-pro, I think about changing the test setup in such a way that safety is guaranteed, or I stop the test. Rules or not, the chain accelerates like a bullet and has devastating consequences if it collides with a body part, it's as simple as that.
You might want to come up with a rig that lets you be further away from the drop. You are super close if something snaps.
I can not for the life of me understand why this channel isn’t bigger or growing faster. Ryan’s a quirky guy but he’s respectable & doing good work. I fabricate ultra4’s & build motorcycles. This stuff is fascinating & there’s no way in hell I’d start climbing without having some of this knowledge. Never trusting what a manufacturer stamps on a package. Especially if it’s made overseas.
"A quirky guy... but he's respectable" haha wow shots fired. Totally agree with the content though, my favorite channel
Slow and steady.
How not to build a UA-cam channel lol
Im new,
I just found this channel.
Its amazing
Probably cause its called "howNOT2" instead of how 2 😂
I like how every test spirals into more tests(and vidoes). Great content. Thanks!
People asked me in the past if I’d run out of content ideas. 100% nope! 😂
That's how science works! haha Oftentimes, the biggest result you're left with is more questions
I can’t describe how important this channel is. I have dreams about gear fear and I literally was hoping for this video as I went to sleep last night. Damn, Ryan. Get out of my head!
Exactly
Because rather they are looking for things like "how to do " and equipment that wont kill them
So I’m not into this sport at ALL……but can extensions be used? Maybe like specific use areas where there are too many carabiners, maybe you could attach a double looped rope then your carabiner so it doesn’t get pinched during a possible failure 🤔 again I’m not in the sport, just on my couch watching UA-cam’s
Edit: the double top loop being only like 6” diameter specifically used as a “soft” attach point*
Because climbing is a pretty niche hobby.
It’s click bait, i was gonna watch this based on the title and pic but I’m not watching this click bait
Maybe was recommended this because I work with horses. A horse puts all kinds of weird loads on any carabiner or clip, and we use them often (some people I've worked for use climbing carabiners for horses). This really helps explain how they fail!
I didn't realize how a bad 'anchor loop' can undermine their strength, and it's terribly common to see home-welded gates and stalls that basically force a carabiner into an awkward position like this.
Eyyy another horse person! ❤
You're very correct! Horses are creative creatures and really like testing those clips to their limits 😂
The name used for a connection that's supposed to break to protect a piece of equipment from overload is called a "Frangible Link". Interesting video!
I was out of the climbing scene for a few years and got back in with high angle rope rescue. It amazed me how far gear has come since the late 90's, early 00's. Between all the new types of climbing gear and selection we live in amazing times.
For the non-climbers here, Gear typically isn't going to fail on you in normal usage. Provided that you are using it properly. In climbing it's extremely important to not put any of your gear in a situation where you could be levering it against something. Static vs dynamic loading can result in a bad time.
TLDR ; take care of your gear,inspect before every use and don't get creative with your uses for it and you're unlikely to see any dangerous failures while climbing.
Nearly the entirety of accidents that occur are the result of negligence either from experienced/cockiness or being distracted during your checks.
Thanks.
You managed to make your TLDR longer than the text it describes.
How come everything connected to the weight kept breaking but they only cared about the carabiners??
Possibly a dumb question (sorry) but do carabiners wear out to a point where they're unsafe for climbing, but still "functional"? Would such things be super cheap to purchase or obtain?
@@neshbro All good, for the most part carabiner damage that climbers see wouldn't interfere with using it for other things, However the cost of purchasing them new at $10-15 is rarely much more than you'd find used anyway.
The exception to this would be autolocking carabiners. The nicer ones can easily run upwards of $30-50 each, in which case if you found them cheap used it wouldn't hurt to snag them.
Finding used climbing gear, carabiners included can be a bit tricky though. Theres some things climbers absolutely will not want to purchase used for safety reasons, and as such also don't sell them once they've passed their lifetime in the off chance someone does try to climb with it.
Standing so close to the cable, even above it as demonstrated, seems horrendously dangerous; look at the backlash that occurs at around 10:41 and you can see a segment of the rope (and whatever may be, or have been, attached to it) is slingshot up and it comes just a few centimeters from striking you! It reminds me of when people connect all sorts of poorly-thought-out, quickly-rigged tow lines with heavy hooks (or even carabiners!) attached to them to try to pull out stuck cars in the winter. Even the elasticity in many ropes can snap if and when they break or something fails with such energy, it can be lethal. I would say, _If you won't stand beneath it, do not stand adjacent to, or even above it!_ - j q t -
My thought too, the energy stored in the rope get transfer back like a slingshot. It’s probably safer to be on the ground (at a safe distance)
Seriously. Can’t believe he’s willing to stay so close to these catastrophic breaks
relax grandma he's got goggles on
@@alecsyogacorner yeah the impulse of momentum for rope hitting you is much higher because the surface area of the impact is so much smaller. It's why you'd rather catch a rock than a knife. Obviously nylon whiplash is nothing compared to something like steel wire, but still has recorded fatalities, even in contexts like "tug of war". The two ball bounce experiment (put a tennis ball on top of a basket ball) shows that being above the rope isn't necessarily any guarantee of safety.
was my first thought when i saw the first drop. Odd he doesn't know this. Anytime you do anything with rope, cable, etc that puts a load on it, always stand back at least as far as the rope.
I've been working with entertainment rigging for just over 30 yrs & loving these scenarios. Keep at it!!
Funny how you have an obsession for climbing safety but stand next to exploding carbiners, swinging ropes and other eventual parts without protection or glasses :O
Very interesting. Mountain Safety Research started just to do testing of ice axes (wood shafts) and biners and branched out from there. There was a drop tower and the works. There was a bunch of gloves tested for belaying as well. Anyway it began just as a newsletter on equipment. But the Stuff being sold by REI and other sources (late 1960's) was so bad and the test results were rejected by REI and other so MSR began selling the best products tested and then making superior products like the ice axes. Too bad there was no Internet! Here you are doing exactly the same thing 50 years later. (MSR had good instrumentation and equipment because is was started by Larry Penberthy and located at Penberthy Electromelt in Seattle.) The REI Red Locking Carabiner that everyone used I recall was breaking in tests at a few hundred pounds. The REI ice axes were breaking at 150 to 300lbs in side loading simulating various belays. The first MSR product was a fiberglass kit that doubled the strength of the shafts.
Knot head here: some things in climbing aren't done for technical reasons, they done because they are easy to check and verify.
The mighty figure 8 knot is actually on par with a few other knots in terms of performance, but the figure 8 knot is very easy to check from a distance.
The test in this video shows that loading the second carabiner might be ok in some situations, but you want rules that are always true for people to not get hurt.
I snapped a carabiner during a normal climbing fall and I have a theory. The carabiner was pulled up such that the spine acted as a lever with the load by the nose (pushing up against the underside of the hanger), the fulcrum in the middle of the spine resting on the top of the opposite side of the hanger and the force applied downward at the dogbone end. The force would snap the carabiner like a weak crowbar. I am convinced that, if the hanger has a diagonal slant, you must clip through the underside of the hanger to avoid leveraging of the spine.
I’d really love to see you do these tests again, but move the hangar to the top of that beam so its actually simulating an actual climbing situation. The chain is moving past the plane of the hangar which makes it act like the chain isn’t there at all
maybe put some more foam into the LS3-Box on the sides. coud easily imagine a scenario where the LS3 Box gets reverbed between the dummy weight and the ground. in which case it could go flying inside the case hitting the sides at max speed with a SIDEWAYS force peak, which these things potentially weren't designed for.
Love the content! The drop tower is awesome!
also maybe the LS3-box doesn't need to be attached to the dummy, and hence undergo all the same beating as the dummy does. After all you're not (in this case) measuring the forces acting on the dummy -- you're measuring the forces at the piece being tested. Even though again in this configuration these forces should be pretty much the same, still in general case makes sense to put the measuring link as close as possible to the expected breaking poing and also in such a way that it doesn't smash on the ground or into the dummy in the event of successful breakage.
I don’t know how every climber isn’t subscribed to you guys… interesting, extremely well made and incredibly insightful. Keep up the good work !
I dont even climb and I’m subscribed. Lol
Because the videos are too long.
@@Mike-oz4cv or their attention span is too short.
It´s not that surprising for everyone the same. Such tests had been done a lot long before the internet...
@@aurtisanminer2827 It’s not about attention span. Most of the videos can be summarized in a simple table and a few photos. Don’t need minutes of goofing around.
You need a face shield and a hardhat. You might wanna build a plexiglass protective barrier between you and the breaking point.
Im not surprised, the biner sat pretty nicely above that quick link. Probably a swinging fall could cause the right conditions to break a biner.
YOU NEED THE TWO GUYS WITH EXTREMELY HIGH SPEED CAMERAS TO FILM THESE BREAKS
I've been hanging around outside the wrong sides of high rises on the island of Oahu for many years. I have never and, never would load a beener even remotely close to any of those situs. I was using aluminum bright locking d's since b4 you were born. With the next stop straight down 400 to 700 feet down. And if you want a really safe knot to actually hang on I always use a bowline...on a bight. Two loops. One slightly smaller than the other. A shock load may break the first loop but, since it absorbed most of the shock...the other can still hold. Never load a beener latterly.
Damn, I have even more respect than ever for carabiners. Even when you are TRYING to break them literally EVERYTHING else breaks first!
First video of yours ive ever seen. You describe something ive been preaching for years. Breaking gear fear. LOVE IT
Seeing the weight slam into the rubber pit makes me wonder how much momentum/force it's still carrying at that point. Would be cool to have some way to measure the force when that impact occurs, bc that'd correspond to how hard you'd deck if your gear blewout in a similar situation.
Great idea, use an accelerometer to determine if it was a lethal deck
@@midship_nc thats hard to compare, as with the human body being bigger, the impact would be spread on more rubber and thus the decellaration would pontentially happen much more consistently and thus with a potentially much lower force peak. also the human body is able to absorb some of the falls energy by bending and breaking, where as most devices arent compressable.
i think if Ryan was falling off the tower he'd have a good chance of survival, assuming he falls into the rubber pit. potentially even with only smaller injuries, depending on how controlled his landing is.
@@lordofnothing. he could get a crash dummy like Mythbusters had, but they are extremely expensive in working order with sensors
For ”residual” energy I would just high-speed-camera it to check the speed (velocity)
Kinetic energy = (mass * velocity^2)/2
So speed is all you need.
@@greenveg42 when you know the mass and the high than you can calc. the potential energy - just take away the energy messured via the device
So interesting thing from a structural perspective here:
When you look at the case for proper loading you get a formula like this:
ΔL=(σ*L)/E
Where
ΔL is the change in the length due to tension
σ is the tensile stress
E is the elastic young's modulus (a material property)
So the deformation leading to breakage in pure tension is a linear relationship to all the variables.
But when you look at the improper case, which could be idealized as a pure beam bending problem:
δ = (PL^3)/(3IE)
Where:
δ is the bend from the initial position (think of a beam sticking off from a wall, this is the distance that the very end moves)
P is the force applied
L is the distance between the force and the connection point
I is the 2nd moment of inertia (a property of the shape of the beam)
E is again the young's modulus
In this case you can see that although the force is still linear, this distance adds a CUBED value
That's why you can't break the carabiner in pue tension.
Couldn’t stop laughing at 10:35 that carabiner just refused to comply
You didn't test the carabiners I use. Not sure the brand but they can be found near the checkouts at Walmart
Props for repping Leoni Meadows. I miss that place. Now that our Grizzly Flat house is gone, it is unlikely I will see it again.
Nice video, gents. Keep sending and pray the Leap opens in March!
This is an amazing test. I'm glad someone is posting stuff like this. Really surprising. Careful for that whip back when the rope snaps!
And the learning begins! This drop tower is already paying off 😃
It probably hooked on the nose, it's much more important than people think to have the gate face away from where you are climbing.
What I learned from this video is that if you weight 200lbs and fall, there is a very good chance something will snap and then Game-Over-No-Respawn.
The drop tower is next level. Shock load testing is a really interesting development to your slow pull test history.
holy shit it's finally happening
way to go mans
Perfect Descent is what I used in my gym and recommend to others. Really like them.
Hey, why don't you place the force gauge at the top of the tower? You could have a secondary elastic rope in parallel to the device your testing, that way when you do you drop, your force gauge won't smack the ground, might last a bit longer
i wonder if it makes a difference if it is well used and banged on a rock many times carabiner or a brand new one. I am no expert but i have heard that microfractures are a real thing.
Congratulations on the drop tower!! I love what we're about to see!!
Hope you can get some cover up there. Lots of small pieces flying around!!
Be safe and keep up the great work!
Peace and love from the Red River Gorge in Kentucky!
Not sure if its in the plans for finishing up the tower, but you might consider bolting/welding a thick plate to the beam and attaching your hangers to that. I foresee a swiss cheese support beam when you start drilling more and more anchor bolt holes. It would also give you more room to position the hanger in various ways, like how several comments mention needing the "rock" below the hanger so the quicklink has nowhere to go to get out of the way.
Also, I have rigged stuff where the biner has become caught in a bad position (ie: on the nose, gate or part way down the spine) after people clip in/out and move things around, and it doesn't correct itself because of the other piece. Without noticing and fixing it, this can cause cross loading (Always check your rig!).
Good point. When leading, the draw/carabiner gets pulled sideways into less than ideal positions and then has to rotate when you fall. The more junk in the bolt hanger, the more likely it won't be able to rotate freely.
10:46 "OK this is NOT the same shape it was"
at least it cracked me up :D
Maybe some tape could hold some of the connection points in place, could keep it from cross loading and wasting good gear. 10, 10, 10, on those perfect decents, ok One more shameless plug for ya!
We came to that conclusion as well and tapped carabiner for later tests.
@@bobbyhutton1989 Yeah I figured you guys would catch on pretty quick, still love those climbing gear snuff videos though!
This information is incredibly useful. Thank you for taking the time to do this. I am a highrise technician and there isn't alot of useful real world info out there.
Great info and content. So cool to see you grow this far, not only in viewers but from slacksnap to drop tower. Awesome
7:06 Damn, You should think about some head / face protection, if this piece of metal with hit your eyes... Seriously
It’s always nice to see people highlighting the importance of factoring in failure analysis in designs
Especially when something failing might risk injury or worse
Its not too difficult and can be the difference between stitches or a funeral
Hey man, this video is really well done and interesting, but PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE set up a camera rig at the top of the drop tower to capture the footage of them breaking. That rope or other debris could snap back at you and potentially kill you. My friends dad was killed in his backyard while he was tightening a hold-down. It snapped and the end that came back hit his neck, cutting him so deeply that he did not make it to the hospital. Testing scenarios are controllable, and should be layered with safety. Stay safe man!
Just saw this channel, and I love it. Can see this growing to 1 million in the next months
I don't climb, or really even have any desire to climb. That said, this channel is absolutely fascinating. Learn something new every day.
The thing is in any sort of top managed site (multi pitch belay, rappel, etc) if you’re transferring the load point from something behind to something in front it becomes extremely difficult to get the back carabiner out.
For example: you came to an anchor of a 2+ pitch climb with rap rings, you clip your anchor in behind the rap rings as recommended here. Later you go to rap off, you thread your rope through the rings go on to the rope to clean the anchor but because you’re weighting the rings they are pinching the carabiners of the anchor and you can’t get the damn anchor off! So you have to unweight the rope and the anchor which can be very difficult if you’re on any terrain near/past vertical.
Anyone who has done a few multi pitches has experienced this in some form and knows it’s consistently some of the most annoying faffing bullshit when you can’t get a biner out
Are there some graphs for like 10 kN, 15 kN, and 20kN for the necessary height+weight necessary to achieve the given force? Maybe even just a continuous graph that shows the entire continuum, or at least 3+ graphs on one grid. Would have been nice to show that here for those who aren't familiar with the forces and heights for their body weight.
I bought one of those black diamond carabiners for myself years ago. I'm glad to see how strong they are since I was using it to hold my keys.
I really like this new hunting for a discount code. I currently am in no need for some carabiners, but I like the challenge.
Also great video as always
Same! Also realizing they have Aliens was nice and wouldn't have happened had I not done the code hunt. Now, off to explain to my wife why I needed a new rack pack and some lockers....
@@hal259
I don't know if I was fast enough, or if it helps, but here it goes:
Hello Mrs. Hal's wife,
I myself am a climber and can confirm that your spouse Hal is in desperate need of new/extra gear to be even safer out there when climbing. Trust me, you both profit from it. Hal gets some new stuff, while you are allowed to bring up their new gear, whenever they refuse or are late to do chores.
Have a great day
- V. Fink
@@vfnt My hero! She's always a sucked for the safety lines lol
Awesome slow-mo, thanks 👍🏿
Keep on rockin' Ry , absolutely awesome work. Thanks for all you do. U 2 Bobby
This channel is getting better by the day. Thank you for answering all the questions we have with climbing equipment, and educating us about stuff that would otherwise never have crossed our minds. You are making climbing safer with each vid you film 🙂
This just proves what sailors and boaters have known for years, more ropes=more fail points, and metal shackles/carabiners don't function correctly when a tangential force is applied. Love seeing this kinda content!
3:25 you sure its safe to stay up there during test? I feel like depending on how It broke/how the rope behaves and what sort of shrapnel is released, maybe it would be accident prone
Likewise for stuff being flung out at Bobby's head
Safety blinks were used as required in ACME 13400-2010.
What fun is there if its all perfectly safe 😂
As an apprentice tree climber, this channel should be part of the training videos. Trees aren't nearly as terrible as rocks on gear! ...Unless you chop things with a saw. Still, this is awesome and keep up the great work!
yeah goes to show doing the wrong way causes things to break and get's you killed or badly injured
Bro is a rope master and yet just casually chilling right in the shrapnel zone
Your descents were all really perfect!!!
Like all your videos, this one was particularly interesting. This should be required viewing for all climbers, for so many reasons. Thank you, again, for your comprehensive testing.
Love the Bobby cameo at 6:23 😅
thank you very much to all climbing safety contents you guys make!
I appreciate all of it specially that I'm just a beginner.
I haven't climbed for over a decade and still ended up watching the whole thing. Really cool video
Don't fucking leave quicklinks to bail in the middle of a pitch! They rust shut and can't be easily removed by a leader without a wrench, so someone has to come clean up your mess. Leave an actual carabiner if you have to bail.
Hey, I only discovered your channels about a month ago and now 60% of the videos I watch are from you, I love your channels because many videos show you exactly why you should do everything right when climbing and how deadly even the smallest mistake can be, thank you for the time and effort you put into your videos to share your experiences with the world, thank you!
Greetings from Germany
You really need a tripod or some mounting for your camera, AND a shield for you to stand behind. You are just asking to get hit and punctured with flying metal while standing there next it like that.
Also CONGRATULATIONS! Video one with the drop tower posted!
Super excited to see future tests!
That was great. I like a little bit of you and Bobby joking around. All sorts of interesting things you are learning about how gear doesn't behave as expected when actually falling through the air.
Been climbing trees for 31 yrs., taking trees apart with rigging gear, over houses, etc. Use heavy , positive locking beeners, thicker rope and heavier rigging than you think you need, heavy belt,/ harness. Use common sense. Never had a problem.
"This is how you make a carabiner fail"
Carabiner "No, I don't think I will"
Wow, very interesting. I work as an arborist my self so I dont really use those kind of anchor points, but i know some tree climbers who chokes a rope with a biner around a branch or stem. That will heavily side load the carabiner. Some still claim that it doesnt matter but I was tought in school its a big no no.
I’m def a new subscriber. Thanks!
As someone who doesn't climb, all this taught me was that there are many things that can break for your carabiner, but all these things also rely on that carabiner so it's smart to make sure it's set up right!
I would catch my linegrip with a dynamic backup rope, rather than let it smash into the ground over and over ... can´t imagine thats very healthy for any kind of electronics.
Bomber tower .. .. this will give you whole knew level and depth of testing.. well done Ryan ..
I would like to get some climbing gear and practice some really basic stuff as part of prepping/preparedness. I don't have time and energy to do this as a full blown hobby, but I want to have enough experience and gear to be ready for as many scenarios as I reasonably can in this crazy world of ours, and I've already got plenty of the food/water/home supplies/cold weather gear etc. so I'm really glad channels like this exist for not only regulars, but also people looking to branch out and learn some basics of other hobbies just in case.
Ooof that was an expensive test breaking all these nice steel biners. Going to donate.
Love the video and seeing the tower in action finally.
Looks like shockloading really puts another dimension of stress on the gear.
Ok now I'm scared of soft shackles, 12mm ropes, carabiners, hangers and dogbones.
Colin Furze needs some of those perfect decent reels to get into his secret tunnels
I could listen to Ryan talk all day long, love your vids, i'll be here for every single one to come (:
Tries to create gear fear in side loaded carabiners.
Ends up creating gear fear in virtually every other component.
I was wondering what it would take to do abrasion/ wear tests on items like aluminum rappel rings and carabiners? Somehow (consistently) load 1kn, and then used a gear/motor/pulleys to pass 500-1000ft of rope through them. Use micrometers to guage the dept of wear and maybe even laser temp them or let them cool off between runs to simulate real world? I know u guys would do great once the rigging is thought out!
Good to know everything will break before the carabiners. I seen some frayed looking roops out there.
Love ur channel mate! BTW is that your vineyard?
Love your videos.
I have a question about this test. (Sorry if it’s been asked already)
So the carabiner that you’re trying to break, would it possibly break easier if the one below it couldn’t move?
Like if you moved the bolt up a few inches.
The carabiner below it is hanging on an overhang so it has the ability to move backwards and not put as much force on the one you’re trying to break. Maybe it’s a fun variable if you ever try this again? Hopefully this made sense. Thanks!
If you bend a piece of dry spaghetti until it breaks, it ends up breaking in two places.
I like the extensive use of climbing gear on the test setup lol
THIS is one thing that so many people don't understand.
ALL our gear is rated for a static loading.
Dynamic loads are a whole other story and the gear may not perform the way you expect.
THIS is why we need large safety factors
THIS is also why in Industrial height work and industrial rigging we avoid dynamic loadings at all cost.
The regulations I work under require us to use zipper style fall arrest lanyards in pretty much all height work.
A/ to prevent failures in the rig and B/ to minimize the damage to the human.
We are also taught that our rigs should be in straight lines and unless the point is explicitly designed for multiple attachments, there should only be one item in any given hole.
I do hope your further plans for the drop tower include an armored cabin for personnel that stays on top to watch the experiments. I'd be scared that the backlash of the ropes could amputate arms, legs or heads.
That would lead to a less than perfect descent and I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to see gear break - not gear users
I still think Zac Wronski's gear failed in the way he described. If you notice in his video, that bolt placement is on a part of the rock that is less than vertical, so when you load the carabiner it is going to put greater side loading-torque on the carabiner than in the vertical setup you have on your drop tower.
Hey! Whiskeyjacks!.... climbing area mostly put up by Ryan Munroe (& friends) and author of the newer Kenora rock climbing book (ver2) & illustrated by Mike Brown.
A place I still need to climb if I wasn’t so busy climbing and hanging out with friends at echo creek!
Ugh!... so much to climb, so little time!!
HN2: Tried to destroy carabinier
Result: Everything except the carabinier breaks
Just a tip, you are on the slingshot/whip zone, you should probably get a screen to protect you or release it from further away, you can see one of the shots the carabiner flew straight up, if it hits you its gonna leave a mark...
Wow! Nicely done!
I appreciate all you do Ryan!