пиро мейн фурри ахуеть пиздец пока мими турель прямо перед твоим лицом стоит шпион если вы вставите это в переводчик и лайкните комментарий, то под подушкой вы не находите нихуя. идёт?
@@s0biektywnie fun fact: i got prime cuts badge in 2 matches on first one i got everyone except the medic but on the other one i got only soldier and the medic and i got the badge
I'm glad to see a creator add something to this decade-old discussion besides "are bad, pls remove." It's always more interesting to delve into the rationale behind decisions.
And having dived into them, we can safely say that they are cosmically awful and should be removed. I swear if they invented a new kind of toilet paper that was wrapped in barbed wire some people would get personally hurt when people got mad at the company.
@@thebigyes8482 Random crits do bring down overly competetive players down from the high horse down to the casual ground that the game was made for in the first place. High skill ceiling, but also low skill floor on top of being different from most other fps formats putting 24 players on 2 opposing teams on same server. Game was, is and will be a clusterfuck and it's perfect this way. Not everything needs to be sterile.
@@elfascisto6549 That's kind of a slippery slope though. Even if we remove crits, there will still be 'unbalanced' weapons. And if we 'balance' those, there will still be 'unbalanced' maps, strategies, exploits, match-ups, etc. Nothing can ever be completely balanced. This is the issue that CSGO had, where even the concept of physics props seemed too unbalanced and had to be nailed down to fit the sterilized nature of the game. To this day, people complain about minor issues causing imbalance, as though the ultimate goal is to have squares shooting at other squares with perfectly similar weapons. Where we draw the line of balance is entirely subjective, so people arguing for it are more or less saying "we should remove crits because I don't like them".
@@simplysmiley4670 I can scarcely think of a mechanic in TF2 more ‘sterile’ than random crits. It destroys player interaction. I love TF2 for it’s casual aspects. I really love demomen flying across the map to pick off snipers with a pan or ham, snipers headshotting invisible spies by complete accident, scout duels where two veterans miss all six shots and killbind, and I especially love hoovies throwing Sandwiches to the enemy team regardless of if I’m trying to win the match. I love these things because I imagine two people sitting behind screens making this stupid shit happen because they have been presented with this amazing sandbox in which to fuck around. At the same time, there can also be super sweaty duels between players of any skill level happening on the same map, and that’s also a big part of why I love TF2. Random crits ruin the latter when they come into play, giving a huge advantage to the more experienced or tryhard players for obvious reasons. When a random crit happens, it’s not a human interaction, it’s a calculation made by a computer that dictates whether players will have an interaction, be that competitive or bizzare, or whether one of them will lose any sense of satisfaction and the other’s experience will be hit with a speed bump as they will have to look at a respawn timer for the next ten seconds. I find that quite sterile.
That would A tier TF2 storytelling. Ofcourse the cheaply made company makes cheap weapons with the small chance of actually functioning. Whic would explain why the mercs can take things like explosions to the face end survive it with a minimal scar. But not when it actually works.
@@catcat5308bro if the medigun can make someone inmortal then you could just say the kritzkrieg increases damage and thats all, same with crit a cola, maybe scout uses better his guns because of the effect of the drink
It amazes me that tf2’s maps were so absolutely terrible and chokey and defence oriented that valve thought giving the attackers a 15% chance to triple their damage after making any amount of progress was justified
10:35 I think there's another puzzle piece worth trying: dropping your crit chance back to zero after getting a crit. This would give one team momentum without turning it into an unreversable curbstomp
actually iirc crits, atleast now, dont contribute to your "crit bucket" that decides how much your chance is at getting a random crit. itll increase your chance the same amount as a noncrit would
Seeing the editing, audio and scripts get better and better each video has been a sight to see. Well done to you and everyone who worked on the video, seeing someone improve so fast makes me appreciate this really rare high moment.
Great video. For anyone who’s interested in the random crits topic, I highly suggest watching Lister’s other video “Why Can’t Certain Weapons Random Crit?”. Surprisingly, it’s not just a meme attribute that valve uses to slap on random weapons
I think Gaben made a deal with rnjesus and this is the result Edit: sorry I forgotten Robin Walker was the main guy behind the deal with Gaben as Walker's ambassador
Very interesting video, it’s nice to look at the intention valve had when designing the mechanic, and how their words were misconstrued by the community
I agree, I think close games are much more exciting than one-sided games, and I think snowball mechanics for PvP games are almost always bad in concept and implementation. It's an awful TF2 experience to join a TF2 match that is almost already over and your team has half the points of the enemy team.
@@iminumst7827a little snowballing is important though. The respawn system is designed to snowball. If you have NO snowballing mechanics you get a ton of stalemates. Just check instant respawn servers for an example, defense is impossible to break. Random Crits having a snowball feature is bad sure but the broader concept of momentum advantages is essential for any game with respawns.
Thats not the "only actual explanation" You are just seething that there is a mechanic of probabilty in a game, do you cry about crits in games like dota, BOO HOO HE CRIT ME 4 TIMES IN A ROW SO UNFAIR. BOO HOO.
@@Nikotheleepic would it be OK to have a random "dodge" mechanic that negates damage randomly? Surely that'd be fine, right? The issue isn't that it's random, the issue is that it's shit. it ruins fights (dying to a crit you got doinked by 40km away around a corner because of no damage scaling), and ruins fights (interesting 1v1s get stuffed by the funny instant win). There's no defense to keep it in the game other than "le whacky moment xd" - as if TF2 needs a random win button to be silly. Brain-dead pubbies may enjoy it, but randomness isn't a good thing. there's a reason they removed random damage spread lol, they should've axed crits while they were at it.
@@Nikotheleepic I have never seen anyone who actually enjoys playing MOBAs "We created Team Fortress 2's critical-hit system so that critical-hit chances increase over time based on performance. There's the skill. If you're a good player, you'll always have a higher chance of hitting criticals than novices. On top of that, there's the flat-out fact that crit chance is determined when you fire, right? You can miss crits." - Robin Walker Wow, this quote looks eerily similar to "It allows pubstompers to stomp pubs harder", just with a sugarcoating
i love random grits like the highs of dishing them and the lows of receiving them are something that you don’t really feel much in video games and is unique to tf2
I remember, when first playing Team Fortress 2, random crits were something I was incredibly confused by random crits because I would never get them. It was only after months of playing that I realized I was only using weapons that couldn't get them - Sniper rifles, swords, knives, and, especially, the Caber. But by that point, I had such a negative relationship with crits that I just wanted them gone entirely so I didn't have to deal with them.
Another amazing video-seriously, they just keep getting better and better! I can’t think of anyone else who could make such a well-researched video that corrects popular misconceptions on such a controversial subject, and so clearly and concisely. Not just one of the best TF2bers, but one of the best gaming youtubers period!
This comment section is too civil and polite - lets change that : Random Crits keeps the tryhards in check. It keeps the fun & casual nature of TF2 maintained, knowing that all their skill and practice will help them 90% of the match. Just not that 10%. It affects the overall mood of the server. Look at uncletopia and nocrit "casual" servers - the moment there's a single tryhard demo and medic gf you're FORCED to tryhard yourself, just to survive. Then the meta loadouts comes, nofun scouts, and it just becomes comp-lite. "But random crits benefit tryhards the most because they do most damage" And they get mad the most when killed by a crocket. Pablo.Gonzales.2007 isn't crying at the crocket, he was getting stomped anyways. But Pablo was not killing anyone on his own, maybe assists. When he gets the crocket kill (especially a revenge kill), he gets the high moment he's missing in the game. Tryhard pubstomper gets no additional enjoyment. He's just rewarded more multikills if enemies are grouped together (opposing team's fault). Random crits raises the high moments for lower skilled(or effort) players, and in turn lowers the already high ego of a high skilled (or effort) player. The best thing a tryhard can do when killed by random crit is realize this game is meant to be taken lightly, have fun, and realize their "skills" are good for 90% of the game time, just let others remaining have fun. I just want random crits to remain the way it is in most of the servers, and nocrits to remain in other dedicated servers for those who want it. When i want to tryhard, i just play counterstrike/dota2/valorant/any other multiplayer game in the market. I want TF2 to remain "that fun game". That's the reason even after 15 years, this game is noob friendly, and not completely dominated by high level players.
Exactly. Nobody seems to remember how Tribes: Ascend died: it got dominated by elite players who'd been at it for years. If you wanted a chance at beating them, you wielded the chat log. Mostly that just meant getting hit 75% of the time, instead of 100% of the time.
I get the sentiment and sorta agree kritz can help some people feel better but most players aren’t noobs or elites, they’re just normal guys who have fun when they have teamwork and like two frag out, and these guys just get randomly punished four just playing the game. It doesn’t make em take the game less seriously or let em goof off, they’re just dead and mildly annoyed (like how you’d feel from getting killed by a sniper halfway across the map). Hell even if they themselves get a crit most of the time all it does is just secure a kill because most classes must be in close range two actually have your shots land in the first place (except if you’re an explosive class) Also arguably getting random crit by pablo does less two tilt or at least cause self reflection a tryhard than actually getting outplayed, because a crit you can blame on rng, getting outplayed is a skill issue. (Plus random crits benefit sniper the most and I don’t think sniper needs any more things stacked in his favour)
This was a fantastic video, I never thought of it this way before. Applying this logic would also explain why CTF gives crits when you capture the flag.
Honestly, the pacing thing is why i kinda love the last holdout on almost every payload maps. Usually blu team is absolutely at a disadvantage, but not having victory be guarunteed just makes achieving it that much sweeter.
rare to find a commenter suggest this but, i would say like almost all of this guy’s viewers are not subscribed despite him having a large currently “loyal” audience, obviously you dont have to subscribe but he seriously has only 35K subs yet has a lot of views AND likes on his tf2 history videos
Probably because he doesn't do funny SFM tf2uber quick edits, dramatic voiceover, or throws meaningless hot takes. Despite being years old majority of TF2's fanbase has always been wacky lolsorandom type
As someone who recently got back into tf2 and been playing casually. I feel like I quite enjoy random crits for some reason. I guess it’s the feeling of hope? Like even if you are outgunned there is still a tiny hope of a random crit. Meanwhile, even when you are dominating the enemy, you still need to be careful and try to avoid damage since every shot might be a random crit. Yeah, I guess it’s the feeling of “not being able to just intentionally tank a rocket to the face” making it feel exciting.
Another great video! The scripting and the tone of your voice plus the editing really bring this video essay style of video together! I’m looking forward to your future endeavors!
I would argue that Team Fortress isn't quite as balanced as people make it out to be, at least competitively. "Generalist" classes are the only real serious option in a lot of situations, and certain classes (Spy and engineer) see almost zero play across the board at high levels (6s). Highlander is a Band-Aid solution, but that's not even mentioning Sniper, who invalidates every class interaction in the game.
Certain classes also deal with the issue of being the class most don’t want to play but which have to be picked that valve tried to avoid in the first place. Medic and heavy primarily. I say heavy also because a heavy is paramount in some pushes to take and dish out damage to most classes which usually would be more free to do whatever they want. He is the frontline which if kept alive will push the team to victory, which means in most offensive and sometimes defensive situations, as some point the heavy is kinda needed or is actually viable. Medic and heavy aren’t as enticing of options as the other classes for most, so they end up being the least played classes, especially in pubs, even though they are both very important. Valve tried to avoid this with demo and succeeded, but as a result they forgot to do that with classes like medic and heavy. It sucks because both have potential to go outside of their class roles every once in a while and be viable, but they aren’t given the chance.
I’d argue tf2 is at least somewhat well balanced 6s isn’t tf2 though In a real game 12 players mean scout is much less effective due to 1v1s being less common and his counters being more common and also any game mode other than 5cp and koth actually lets people play other classes and the more engineers and heavy’s allowed to leave the spawn room for once the less effective a try hard scout can be on his own Also engineer is used at high levels of comp bust mostly as a final point holder like heavy
Some weapons also rely on random crits to be effective. Scotsman's Skullcutter makes you run slower when active but on the other hand its the only "sword" to let you random crit with it, Third Degree is also another one where its just a typical stock axe with the ability to damag both the medic and patient as long as they are connected. Alternatively random crit also acts as a nerf like with Ubersaw, sure you killed that spy and gained 25% of uber on hit which turned out to be a crit, but it's better to get a 2nd hit instead.
Crit-farming with the skullcutter is the funnest. The extra damage adds really nicely into it. Also making medics shit themselves when you whip out the third degree is the most hilarious thing. He has to gamble whether healing his current pocket is worth this risk of getting beamcrit, or if it's better to bail before it's too late. It's like a trustfall but as a game mechanic, I'm not sure which is the funnier outcome. Both of them getting a synchronized death, or a the pocket standing over a pyro that crumpled like paper and just realizing his medic abandoned him.
Critical hits currently seem to encourage individual aggressiveness rather than teamwork. So I'm a bit surprised that the random crit floor wasn't made to dynamically alter based thru-out a match. Like on Attack/Defend & Payload games, BLU Team's base crit rate could be based on objective progress, increasing as more progress is made & if progress is currently being made. RED Team's base crit rate could increase as the timer draws closer to zero, leading to more decisive shut downs. More symmetric game modes could still adjust crit rate based on objective progress & could just give both teams an increase based the timer nearing zero. This would make matches more hectic as they drag on... I ain't a game designer tho, don't know how this would actually affect the game, & knowing TF2's spaghetti code this would probably be too difficult & time consuming to properly implement.
Good luck with teamwork with 12 randos on the internet who could play game for 5 minutes or 5000 hours and stop in the middle of battle to laugh at funny ragdoll
This is highly inteesting. I read the blog posts, listened to the commentaries and saw countless videos and forum posts on random crits. I understood the intention behind them, but somehow, until I saw this video, I couldn't really understand how Valve came to the conclusion that this would work like they imagined in practice. I think it makes more sense now, thank you.
I personally enjoy the random element that random crits provide. Yes they can be frustrating to get killed by, yes they can ruin a good 1v1, but going on a crit streak with the pan or reflecting a random crit rocket is so much fun.
Clearly the solution to this is to give players random ubers to compensate. For every damage taken, you have a small chance of being invulnerable for 2 seconds
Ooohh, interesting idea! What if, instead of Uber, it would be a miss? Like the Bonk! It would even make Sniper a little bit more fair to fight, as, if the sniper misses, you have the chance to fight back(or run for your life)!
@@roland.w that's interesting, although i suppose it would only amplify the anger random crits provide, since its infuriating for the attacked, but the defender wouldn't even notice, making it a net negative.
I've played TF2 for close to 10 years (though not consistently) and I don't really remember much of it. Sure, I've had absolutely great moments and absolutely terrible moments, but they only stick for a little while. However, the one moment I still remember quite vividly, despite it happening a long-long time ago, was the start of a match on 2Fort when I fired a random crit at the enemy balcony, killing 3-4 players before they even knew what was happening. For me, that was quite magical. Probably less so for the unlucky buggers I crocketed. But I think it is an example of the justifications dug up for keeping the failed mechanic: this creating random lucky moments where the stars align and you'll manage something you'll remember and talk about for weeks or more to come. I don't remember my first backstab as a Spy, or my first headshot as a Sniper, or my first Ubercharge as a Medic, or my first time topping a scoreboard. All great moments, lost to the ravages of time. But that one random Crocket that was a literal WTF-moment... That's gonna last me a lifetime. At least for another couple of years.
random crits are something like "pay to win" correctly more damage to win. only one idea for havinbg random crits is random crits only for dying players: when the game starts, all players have 0% chance for random crit, but soon as someone dies and doesn't kill anyone, he get a small chance for a crit, and if he kill someone, his chance decreases. In practice, this means that the more you fail, the stronger you become and when you have high killstreak you cant have random crit. But still, the best option is to completely remove this mechanic
It's bewildering to me that a videogame would reward a team already crushing the other with even more crushing power. It's possibly the dumbest game design decision of all time.
Wow, that Scout who dared to turn around a corner and ate a random crit spam rocket across the map right after leaving spawn at the beginning of the game surely did feel the flow of the match changing in a climactic crescendo, didn't he?
There isn't a better feeling in TF2 than being a lone medic with an enemy soldier in my face, I'm at 50 HP and I decide to do a desperate melee swing. That sweet, sweet 195 damage, letting me live another day. I love how encounters in TF2 aren't set in stone.
??? what part of that was "set in stone" if you took out the random crits, the entire point of playing medic is that you aren't supposed to take 1v1s literally the counterplay is "do not go in alone at 50 health against a good 1v1 class"
1:50 Wait, people actually interpret the phase "rare high moments" to mean the crit, itself, is the "rare high moment"? I've always interpreted that phrase to mean the crits assist in keeping long killstreaks going, with those long killstreaks being the high moments. Which is why you are more likely to deal a crit based on your damage. Sure, a crit itself isn't rare per se, but the rareness comes from the killstreak itself.
That is exactly what he meant. Crits were designed to help good players continue to play well, or at least to let decent players get a higher killstreak than what they normally would be capable of. TF2 was always designed as a casual experience where you kinda need players of all skill levels together to provide the right level of chaotic fun, and crits add to that hectic, unpredictable feeling.
I thought the same, probably because the developer commentary node that line comes from literally says that crits were intended to create killstreaks, that's why they have the crit bucket. Most people haven't played those maps tho.
One thing I think they could do is add crit explosion radius falloff for rockets in particular, but I don’t know how that would pan out and I think more experimenting would have to be done.
@@TeenWithACarrotIDK or maybe make rockets do not have random crits? only damage area attacks, like flamethrower, bombs, rockets, because that can kill a team very unfairy, but when it's about of weapons like the shotgun (you have to aim, and the spread nerfs it), the smg, minigun, flare gun, and other attacks that are only bullets and not area damage
alright the point of ''good players have something to blame'' is actually really good because i literally am one of the poeple who do that, ill be getting a killstreak with scout then crocket turns me into a fine red mist and all i can say is "FUCKING BULLSHIT"
My reason is because it’s just really fucking funny like imagine you go up to a medic and bash his skull in with a bottle and it just kills him instantly
This also would make it, since it scales with damage dealt instead of deaths or damage recieved, really easy to spawn camp. If it had a more Underdog system (and the random crits dealt less damage) it would probably help that Crescendo they want. That way it feels like even if you are spawn camped you still have a fighting chance. That way that final push, even when being steamrolled, would still be climactic.
Counter Strike has rng. Dota 2 has rng. People don’t realize moments in games that make you go “that was bullshit!” makes the game more engaging. Min/Maxing and predatory micro transactions is what’s killing gaming.
In a first person shooter game (or third person) no matter what game it is there is undoubtable one unfair feature within the game that no player can really overcome, and I'll tell you what it's not what your expecting. The most unfair part of any game is skill. Now think about for a moment what a truly fair fight it, it is a fight in which both combatants are on evenly placed situations with none prohibiting or favoring the other. In such a "fair fight" there is truthfully no determining factor at which would decide the winner, as they are completely equal in all aspects for it is fair. Skill is an unfair system and that is it's most appealing part, in any fight there always has to be some determining factor that favors either side for them to win or else it be like having two people punch each other with the same amount of force. Tf2 has both features meant to inhibit and favor the determining factor to be skill. Such as with weapon rebalances and teamwork oriented features, all things meant to reward and make sure success within a skill based determining factor. While with things like sentries and Ubers, both something at which can be achieved by waiting in safe zones are things that deter the determining factor from being skill. As this video demonstrates and with what I have just layed out, shows that Valve's design is focused secondarily on skill and more of game flow. I think that Random Kritz are purposely meant to be easy to obtain and rewarding as it alters skill from being a determining factor in game flow. As per with the purpose of Uber's and Sentries they both change game flow in a slower or faster pace, however these both can cause the opposite of what their meant to by halting game flow in a fast or slow pace. By having random Kritz remove skill from being an entire determining factor of victory and being able to alter game flow pace mechanics such as sentries and medics (before Ubered), It succeeds as a mechanic that makes game flow constantly variable and undeterminable by any main factors besides a role of the dice. Which is why I think that Kritz aren't a good mechanic, but a successful mechanic in what purpose it brings to the game. Which is also why I think casual is so different of an experience compared to servers.
Just wanna say that I appreciate that you tried to look at random crits objectively and the design philosophy behind them, and not the usual viewpoint of "random crits bad because random" and harping on about why you don't like them.
I played TF2 Classic for a long while now since my wifi is a bit shit and vanilla TF2's training bots have poorly coded AI, but TF2C's AI is more realistic to actual players. But that's not my point, my point is that TF2C *has no random crits*, and it actually took me a while to notice that. And in many times the game actually became boring because I missed the satisfying expectation that in many moments like a crit swing or a rocket into a large group will have a crit in them. But sadly no, it never happened. And so when I got to hop into TF2 again and I got a random crit, it was like reuniting with an old friend again.
i like random crits in tf2. seeing a spy walking up to you while playing sniper, he expects to get an easy kill but then you whip out your kukri and whack him in the head for huge damage. sure I just got lucky, but it's insanely satisfying. if i die to a random crit, chances are i would have died anyways
its crazy i never noticed the pacing design before, but its so obvious if you think about it, like thats the reason the final point of (almost) every map is ultra chokey and with red spawn literally next to the point
I think another thing to make random crits more enjoyable is making the gun glow like the kritkrieg. It would help the player who got the crit and say “hey, you got a nuke in your hand, push!” which is exactly what using your momentum is supposed to be. plus a few changes to make crits less infuriating.
That's a good idea. Add to that have the person with the glowing weapon also be marked for death. Just like with scouts Crit cola. Giving the player with the crit a risk and reward factor.
This is an incredibly fun devil's advocate piece. You have completely convinced me there was a reason behind random crits, and that reason had good intentions. But I also agree with your conclusion that it was a failed experiment. Maybe random crits should be changed so they are guaranteed. Something like you are guaranteed a crit every 50 hits, and the interval is reduced hyperbolically per 150 damage you've dealt in the past 20 seconds.
I think the player isnt actually supposed to plan around random crits like how it's described in your video. It seems like it's there to subliminally condition people to push harder when they're performing well (since they sometimes get a reward for doing so), which would make sense since the goal is to motivate people to maintain momentum. Personally I think I actually feel the effect of the conditioning because so many times I remember mowing down a team as heavy and then not wanting to retreat back because I had a feeling I could get even more kills if I keep going further, and then half the time I would actually be right and get a few crits to kill a couple more enemies.
Did you watch the rest of the video? He says that the base rate is too high and the slope is too shallow for that conditioning to actually work properly. Plus, there's already a benefit to getting a few kills: man advantage. Why do we need to give the winning team an even stranger advantage?
"(since they sometimes get a reward for doing so)" my guy, if thewyre already performing well THEY HAVE ALREADY BEEN RECIEVING A REWARD OF KILLING THE ENEMY
@@Helperbot-2000 ok??? The goal is to encourage people to recognize when they're ahead and utilize the momentum not just to "kill enemies harder"...... nothing you said was clever. Clearly the game just existing didn't fix that problem like you implied it would.
I like how you amusingly challenge our uncritical mind by leading us to one direction and believe the known-all tf2ber just to say the opposite "this is great! or that's what I would have said if it was actually the case... (you fools!)" (you also do it at the right pace to let us realize it - which is great)
I main medic and always find it anticlimactic when manage to kill an offense class because I was lucky. Now instead of a tense chase where I survive by the skin of my teeth, I just feel awkward.
The issue is that that also doesn't work They're just another thing to bitch and moan and complain about on top of sniper and the wrangler and airblast strafe knockout and and and
Balancing the game over actual balance Overdone, bland, noone agrees Balancing the game over "some guy might whine about it so let's add an even shittier mechanic" Rarely done for some reason, very weird, lots of people agree that this is shit
@@HeDronHeDronHedron "Balancing the game over actual balance Overdone, bland, no one agrees" I actually agree with that, and you unironically made a better argument for random crits then against. I strongly disagree with the statement that TF2 is a balanced game because I feel such a statement ignores all the side grade weapons that exist within this game, and that the game steers towards encouraging stupid, dumb fun in its design rather then balance. "Balancing the game over "some guy might whine about it so let's add an even shittier mechanic" Rarely done for some reason, very weird, lots of people agree that this is shit" I do not remember saying anything similar to this.
@@Goallpeashooters "Don't remember saying anything like that" Here, you said "give a scapegoat for more competitive players to complain about". Obviously a game will never be perfectly balanced but it's such a waste to not even try to reward skill. Soldier is an example. He's such a fun and skill rewarding class, there are several ways to play, he's highly mobile, basically the peak of TF2. He also has an extremely high skill ceiling mechanically. If we balance around making things reward skill better than we can have a really good game, it's not right to just waste this potential
Wow I've watched every random crit video in the last 10 years and this one is so different, I didn't know or consider some of this info. Edit: Your video is great btw lol In my opinion, TF2 should have a "team crit chance". I'd love to see a Shounic video on that. Like Awesomenauts, the better your team does, your team's level increases allowing you to snowball. TF2 should have a dynamic crit chance based on what's happening. For example: Payload - As blu team is ON the cart, they get 10% increased crit chance (don't hate me, the numbers are hypothetical). As the cart begins moving backwards, red team gets 10% increased crit chance. While the cart isn't moving, neither team gets the bonus, and when a cart (or control point) is being contested (both teams are on it, stopping eachother) then BOTH teams get the bonus in an attempt to roll the dice to knock someone off of it and move on with the match. I REALLY want to see a shounic video on this now.
I was thinking about that while watching too. Maybe have the entire team's performance determine how high the crit chance ceiling is and what any individual team member can cap out their crit chance at, then change the crit scaling accordingly. So the team that's being stomped can only ever max at 20% chance by their one good player, but there's 2 or 3 streaks going on the other team that have their crit chances ramped up to like 40% or 50%. And this could potentially help get more players on the actively snowballing team up and killstreaking with crits so it's not neccessarily a one or two player operation, which I feel like is what it usually is.
11:00 I had this exact thing happen in my last game. Everything was going good, we were barely holding off each attack by the thinnest of margins. 30 seconds left to go, a heavy fresh from spawn just walks out into the line of fire, got the random crits that just destroyed a good third of the team before anyone even had a chance to respond. The game just said 'you lose here and there's nothing your team could have done to prevent it'
The reasons people give for liking random crits are always poorly reasoned. But the catch is that people like it, regardless of their brainrot reasons. Why would the game remove something that half the players like? If I was the lead TF2 developer and I had the switch to flip off random crits... I don't think I would do it despite how much I dislike crits. There's game design philosophy, and then there's just doing what people want. The sad reality is not enough people want random crits removed, polls always come up close. I would only remove random crits if I had strong evidence that many players quit TF2 because of random crits specifically, that would invalidate the currently close polls.
Pretty much every conversation about random crits splits it down the middle of around 50%. That's mostly data from people who are big fans of TF2, the casual audience might be lower or higher for whatever reasons. Valve obviously care and I'd go so far as to say most Valve employees probably don't like crits. But if it is about 50/50 split, they're always going to default to doing exactly what they do best: Nothing.
I think it's interesting how different the two camps are here because the "no random crit gang" always tries to bring game design into it and explain their hate for it, but the people who enjoy random crits just enjoy the spice regardless of how stupid it may be. In simpler matters of taste, I'd argue no one is 100% objectively correct, but it is funny to watch people try to explain their opinion as "the best one". I think they have a point in the sense that if I were designing a shooter nowadays, I wouldn't put them in, or at the very least I would design them differently. But I'm relatively neutral here. I like the variety/spice they bring to matches overall, and yeah it does feel worse when I'm pounded by them constantly, but I'd rather feel something than let the game feel more solved and potentially boring. That being said, I wouldn't exactly bellyache if they were default off on Valve's servers a la Uncletopia. All this being said, the video demonstrating Valve's rationale (and why it's similarly flawed in practice) is quite interesting.
Why not silently remove them? That way noone will go on a rampage about how it all of a sudden "Became too competitive" then weeks later say you are going to rmeove them
@@HeDronHeDronHedron Community servers have disabled random crits and nobody even realized they were turned off. I doubt you could turn ON crits on like, Uncletopia without people noticing though
Im avoiding no crit servers these days since trying to stop the tryhard demo and medic combo rolling the server with an uncoordinated team without crits is frankly impossible haha. So they serve their purpose imo
yes i think he missed that point. random crits make very good players less powerful and new players more valid. which increases the casualness of tf2. i think they serve this purpose quite well
except when the pro demo is the one getting random crits constantly (since he is the one doing the damage, ramping up his own random crit chance), at that point he is just stomping harder, leaving your team with even LESS options
Random crits aren't the only implementation of the "momentum" idea. Players get respawned in waves to create natural coordination; the frequency of these waves, and thus your average respawn timer, varies with objective progress. (I could've sworn there was also a hidden mechanic called "momentum" that adjusted respawn times based on a team's death rate, but I can't find any documentation of it now.)
To be completely honest, having random crits enabled indeed benefits the gameplay BUT ONLY ON MELEES. Melee was designed around random crits, and im tired of people acting like it wasnt.
@@mr.monkey354boohoo **throws jarate at you** This is so sad and unpredictable **kills you with Bushwaka regardless of how you feel about RNG** Imagine a sniper risking it all with a slow and predictable melee to kill you at where he's most vulnerable **quickscopes you instantly**
The main reason for anything having random factors in their games, is in the end to keep people playing. Because in the end of the day, a random critical hit you receive means that you are still good at the game. It just decided to hand you a short stick this time. Can't tell yourself the same thing in a game of Counter Strike. If you are bad, you are bad. It's also lovely to have a casual game to play and TF2 has been that game to me.
In the base version of the game before unlocks, random crits probably made more sense, as there was no way to generate them yourself. Now that we have weapons like the Kritzkrieg and Jarate that allow dedicated application of crits/mini crits, I feel that maybe random crits should be re-assessed, I don't think they should be completely removed, but limited to melee weapons only, lets be honest, if you are in a situation where you need to engage in melee combat, you're as good as dead and praying to the crit gods for that extra 5 seconds out of the re-spawn screen, so I say keep them, you're only going to kill one player in that hail Mary play, a crit rocket or pipe though can clear an entire capture point, and everyone who has spent more than 1 match in the game has had the scenario of waiting out your re-spawn timer, walking out those doors and getting sent right back to the re-spawn screen because some crit rocket that has crossed the entire map has just sucker punched you into oblivion.
From my time playing, I've always felt like random crits fit the overall tone of the game. It's not Call of Duty or Overwatch or whatever. You're not supposed to become so emotionally invested that you break your keyboard if you lose. Random crits add a layer of madness and silliness that I think has gone over the heads of many tryhards. Random crits are this sort of universal equalizer. Consider it the bridge between "It's so over," and "We're so back." No matter how good you've been doing, a crocket can appear right around the corner. And no matter how poorly you're doing, there's that chance that RNJesus will smite your enemies. Lister makes a very, very big point here about how nobody wants to be on this sinking ship like a final boss that's getting his ass beat. We play games for fun to help us cope with living in this Walmart of a world where we work 50 hours a week to pay rent. We're already getting our teeth kicked in by life; we don't need it from our escapes, too.
@@HeDronHeDronHedron I love it. I tend to get complacent when I'm near the top of the leaderboards. Taking sudden crit damage puts the fear of God back in me. It's exciting. It keeps things from being too stale and predictable. If I wanted stale and predictable, I'd play Counter Strike.
I don't get all the pro-random crits sentiment in the comments section of this video even though the conclusion is very much "random crits were a naive idea executed poorly". I'd say TF2 is plenty chaotic without them. Random crits just make it so sometimes you're in the middle of a fight and the other player gets deleted. *Yeah* maybe it's funny if I'm a Medic and I'm at a Melee scuffle with a Demoman and I delete them with one swing from the Ubersaw.... it's also kind of gross, and pardon my french, he also kind of fucked his entire team too by giving me that 25% uber. I don't think he'll be laughing at the situation and neither will his teammates.
I love the discussion about highs and lows towards the end of the first third of the video, especially the comparison between TF2 and other games wherein it is mentioned that TF2 advanced pacing in multiplayer games where other games of the time did not. Speaks to the genius of the game's design.
I've been playing TF2 since orangebox and I sincerely hope Valve never removed random crits. Even if it isn't entirely the intention, I feel it's one of the mechanics that helps keep new and casual players coming. Getting a crit kill has a huge impact on someone who would be otherwise struggling to keep up with higher skill players and can make what would be an unfulfilling experience enjoyable. I've seen so many games like this fade into obscurity where only the diehard expert fans stick around, and trying to get into such games as a new player usually ends in extremely frustrating stomps that lead to uninstalling. As someone who's been on both sides of that, I would much rather have good gameplay sessions occasionally interrupted by RNG than see the game die to a lack of players. I also hope they don't tune the rates to get a more substantial momentum driver - I prefer if it stays as it is; something that has an effect that difficult to notice. I don't really like the idea of dreading a snowballing effect of a particularly effective push. Such things would lead to more people giving up after such events more than not, even further amplifying the effect. It's much better when we can't really see what such a mechanic is doing to gameplay.
pfft, yeah that's whats going to kill this fucking game: a lack of random crits it's not the lack of content updates, the shitty anti-cheat, rampant bots, the lack of transparency, it's the random crits that's going to keep newbies coming to this game
@@cinereus4670 actually yes You play games to feel good and have fun and enjoy yourselves. If you are a newbie in a game like tf2 you re going to get grounded pretty quickly by more competent players. Doing bad is annoying but keeps you in the game to improve. But getting 0 KILLS instantly destroys your motivation to play and learn the game. So a random crit experienced by a newbie is : A cool flashy explosion or trail of effects that made you get one or multiple kills in a cool way and the release of dopamine of feeling good about doing it. Its the first taste of accomplishment and gives them a reason to stay and get better even if they are total noobs. if you people dislike random crits so much why i dont hear yall talk about the crits you get after capping the flag on capture the flag. I feel those are way more annoying since its 100% crit chance that last for some time and the entire team gets them all at once. What this means essentially is stay away from enemies until team crits ends. I find this a lot worse yet no one gives a crap about it.
@@fangrowls6336 ctf is already a dogshit gamemode for that and other reasons (map pool, lack of timer, etc) that I complain about but the key point there is that we can opt put of it, it's not a fundamental game mechanic also while I can't deny it's fun to get a random crit, it's just that, a little fun that doesn't pull me to the game. when someone joins the community it's because they love the style, the gameplay, the weapon variety, and often times new content like jungle inferno and the most recent major update that added VSH and a bunch of new maps, tf2 literally hit an all time high in july because there was a crumb of new content and a bunch of content creators playing it people don't come back for random crits, they come back because of the content, like fortnite or cod does. those games are a lot different and are of varying quality but the key point is that the developers are supporting the game, instead of leaving it in the dust like how titanfall 2 was
I love random crits, sometimes new players get many kills, good players get even more, i have fun when getting one, someone else has more fun when they kill me
Random crits are on the same wave length as Hydro: A neat idea on launch, but just doesn't work in practise. The difference being, that you can't put random crits in alternative game modes and forget about it.
You can leave them in MVM (And VSH), since robots dont get angry being on the recieving end, and in VSH only Hale would recieve crits, but it doesnt matter much to him.
@@realdragon Yes, you can ger random crits in practise, Hydro is also a map you can play and finish on. What doesn't work in practise is how the developers intended it to work. Nobody looks at random crits to decide wether to push or not. And Hydro isn't on 2Fort levels in term of usage for it's replayability.
I like how random crits influence players thinking more than it affects teams, in any other game a player will get punished for overextending, here both new and old players can get a potential reward in random crits for doing the same thing even creating that sense of high, it makes the player build up this sense of bravery and pushing forward that any other game will try and punish you for
@@ib6458 but it does, new players will learn that building a lead in any match will earn them the victory, but because they are new they will feel like leaving it to everyone else, but having gained a sense of bravery will lead to them defying all logic and jump to a 5v1 encounter in order to fight the impossible odds and become THE roadblock the enemy has to fight, its great
Except like the video pointed out, random crits are too rare to be relied on. I've never in my thousands of hours in TF2 pushed because I thought "ooh I have a 8%ish chance to get a crit!" If you want to look at a mechanic that actually gives players bravery to push in the way you are claiming, Soldier banners are a superior implementation of that idea. Also even if crits theoretically help new players, you are kinda overlooking the fact that most new players don't know what's going on, and probably don't even know what random crits are. They just think "why did I sho0t a shiny rocket!?"
@@iminumst7827 EXACTLY, they are really rare yeah, but when you do a callback on your previous reaction to a situation, all you will remember are the times you one shot every single class with one melee swing, that moment you killed 3 guys with a single explosion, that time you held a point all on your own, just completely impossible moments, all just because you were a little braver, the best part would be that as you said the new guy doesnt even know what he did, he just make the imposible a reality, and he never will know i like the soldier banners tho the sound they make are so awesome
@@undererlevelmob7605 but like, that never happens, i dont know what world u live in, but i got 4 friends into tf2 and NONE of them thought for a second that a RANDOM crit would help them win, what u said, about jumping into a 1v5, is called playing stupid, so having a CHANCE, aka something RANDOM that you cant count on, would just have the new guy play like a dumbass and get kills because of it, and yes, playing like a dumbass is a thing, but it isnt RANDOM, skill gets you out of it, not a 2% to kill everyone, ur a bot if u think a new player can get into a 1v5 without dying, and bc of a random crit can kill everyone, thats stupid, and its stupid u think this could happen. and the new guy cant even become a roadblock bc the RANDOM crit is RANDOM and isnt 100% gonna happen, when have you died to a RANDOM crit and thought, "i earned that kill from skill alone, not bc i jumped the enemy team bc i suck a fps's and i lack gamesense, but bc i knew that this 2% RANDOM crit would save me"
I've been working on a multiplayer FPS game inspired primarily by TF2 for quite some time now, and it's fascinating to see Valve's reasoning behind random kritz. My game has a similar system for turns out a similar reasons: most weapons get kritboosted for a single shot for 2 seconds, so one player can feasibly rip and tear through the entire enemy team, as long as they can aim. I wonder if it would work in the context of TF2.
@@gurlight2131 it's not my first game per se, but it is the first of this scale. Multiplayer is kind of out of my depth, tbh. And I do work alone, because I'm an insufferable bitch.
brilliant video-- really illuminative demonstration of valve's m.o., as they use really specific tweaks to foster such ebbs and flows in the pacing of a match. great vid!
![Why Can't Certain Weapons Random Crit? [TF2]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bMSGMTaxCvc/mqdefault.jpg)
![Why Can't Certain Weapons Random Crit? [TF2]](/img/tr.png)
![The Art of Phlog Canceling [TF2 Exploit]](/img/n.gif)
The killcam isn't just a "relationship" feature. If a sentry or sniper kills me, I will know their location. It's very useful.
This helps understand how crit bucket cheats work.
I just wish they would quit asking me to save it
пиро мейн фурри ахуеть пиздец пока мими турель прямо перед твоим лицом стоит шпион если вы вставите это в переводчик и лайкните комментарий, то под подушкой вы не находите нихуя. идёт?
There is nothing more satisfying than seeing a spy decloaking behind sniper after you get deleted by his headshot
@@s0biektywnie fun fact: i got prime cuts badge in 2 matches on first one i got everyone except the medic but on the other one i got only soldier and the medic and i got the badge
I'm glad to see a creator add something to this decade-old discussion besides "are bad, pls remove." It's always more interesting to delve into the rationale behind decisions.
And having dived into them, we can safely say that they are cosmically awful and should be removed. I swear if they invented a new kind of toilet paper that was wrapped in barbed wire some people would get personally hurt when people got mad at the company.
@@thebigyes8482 Random crits do bring down overly competetive players down from the high horse down to the casual ground that the game was made for in the first place. High skill ceiling, but also low skill floor on top of being different from most other fps formats putting 24 players on 2 opposing teams on same server.
Game was, is and will be a clusterfuck and it's perfect this way. Not everything needs to be sterile.
@@simplysmiley4670 removing the casual aspects don't make it sterile. Casual players like well balanced games, even if subconsciously.
@@elfascisto6549 That's kind of a slippery slope though. Even if we remove crits, there will still be 'unbalanced' weapons. And if we 'balance' those, there will still be 'unbalanced' maps, strategies, exploits, match-ups, etc. Nothing can ever be completely balanced. This is the issue that CSGO had, where even the concept of physics props seemed too unbalanced and had to be nailed down to fit the sterilized nature of the game. To this day, people complain about minor issues causing imbalance, as though the ultimate goal is to have squares shooting at other squares with perfectly similar weapons.
Where we draw the line of balance is entirely subjective, so people arguing for it are more or less saying "we should remove crits because I don't like them".
@@simplysmiley4670 I can scarcely think of a mechanic in TF2 more ‘sterile’ than random crits. It destroys player interaction.
I love TF2 for it’s casual aspects. I really love demomen flying across the map to pick off snipers with a pan or ham, snipers headshotting invisible spies by complete accident, scout duels where two veterans miss all six shots and killbind, and I especially love hoovies throwing
Sandwiches to the enemy team regardless of if I’m trying to win the match. I love these things because I imagine two people sitting behind screens making this stupid shit happen because they have been presented with this amazing sandbox in which to fuck around. At the same time, there can also be super sweaty duels between players of any skill level happening on the same map, and that’s also a big part of why I love TF2. Random crits ruin the latter when they come into play, giving a huge advantage to the more experienced or tryhard players for obvious reasons.
When a random crit happens, it’s not a human interaction, it’s a calculation made by a computer that dictates whether players will have an interaction, be that competitive or bizzare, or whether one of them will lose any sense of satisfaction and the other’s experience will be hit with a speed bump as they will have to look at a respawn timer for the next ten seconds. I find that quite sterile.
I've seen a head canon of random crits where Mann co are horrendous at making weapons and the random crit is when the weapon actually works properly
That would A tier TF2 storytelling.
Ofcourse the cheaply made company makes cheap weapons with the small chance of actually functioning.
Whic would explain why the mercs can take things like explosions to the face end survive it with a minimal scar.
But not when it actually works.
so after a round ends their weapons always work? and how does the kritzkrieg works then? and also crit-a-cola
"Whenever you notice something like that a wizard did it"
@@catcat5308it just makes them work, duh
mann co probably made these weapons because they realized their weapons are bad
@@catcat5308bro if the medigun can make someone inmortal then you could just say the kritzkrieg increases damage and thats all, same with crit a cola, maybe scout uses better his guns because of the effect of the drink
It amazes me that tf2’s maps were so absolutely terrible and chokey and defence oriented that valve thought giving the attackers a 15% chance to triple their damage after making any amount of progress was justified
And that after 15 years of being able to change this system, they still haven't.
🫵 dustbowl
TF2 fans when their game about an endless stalemate turns into an endless stalemate: 😨
10:35
I think there's another puzzle piece worth trying: dropping your crit chance back to zero after getting a crit. This would give one team momentum without turning it into an unreversable curbstomp
Also making the chance drop faster to make it so that you have to deal constant damage to keep the crit chance high enough
actually iirc crits, atleast now, dont contribute to your "crit bucket" that decides how much your chance is at getting a random crit. itll increase your chance the same amount as a noncrit would
@@itsasecrettoevery1 I mean that's still a lot of damage being added to your crit bucket, infinitely more than "crit chance dropped back to 2%"
This was quite an interesting shift of view. It nearly persuaded me, until I experience everyday random crit tomfoolery again in casual.
Rare high moments.
RaRe HiGh MoMeNtS
@@thewhiteguy8079rare high moments.
Uncommon elevated events.
Common low periods.
Occasional altitudinous junctions
Seeing the editing, audio and scripts get better and better each video has been a sight to see. Well done to you and everyone who worked on the video, seeing someone improve so fast makes me appreciate this really rare high moment.
Great video. For anyone who’s interested in the random crits topic, I highly suggest watching Lister’s other video “Why Can’t Certain Weapons Random Crit?”. Surprisingly, it’s not just a meme attribute that valve uses to slap on random weapons
and the one on random damage spread. the RNG trilogy
I think Gaben made a deal with rnjesus and this is the result
Edit: sorry I forgotten Robin Walker was the main guy behind the deal with Gaben as Walker's ambassador
funny Valve_Frying_Pan.png
As long as they exist in the game i will audibly wheeze whenever I tank trough one with the batalions backup
weezer referenc
@@LeprosyMessiah420 FUNKe reference
Very interesting video, it’s nice to look at the intention valve had when designing the mechanic, and how their words were misconstrued by the community
It's insanely silly how the only actual explanation of random crits was unironically "It allows pubstompers to stomp pubs harder"
I agree, I think close games are much more exciting than one-sided games, and I think snowball mechanics for PvP games are almost always bad in concept and implementation. It's an awful TF2 experience to join a TF2 match that is almost already over and your team has half the points of the enemy team.
@@iminumst7827a little snowballing is important though. The respawn system is designed to snowball. If you have NO snowballing mechanics you get a ton of stalemates. Just check instant respawn servers for an example, defense is impossible to break. Random Crits having a snowball feature is bad sure but the broader concept of momentum advantages is essential for any game with respawns.
Thats not the "only actual explanation" You are just seething that there is a mechanic of probabilty in a game, do you cry about crits in games like dota, BOO HOO HE CRIT ME 4 TIMES IN A ROW SO UNFAIR. BOO HOO.
@@Nikotheleepic would it be OK to have a random "dodge" mechanic that negates damage randomly? Surely that'd be fine, right?
The issue isn't that it's random, the issue is that it's shit. it ruins fights (dying to a crit you got doinked by 40km away around a corner because of no damage scaling), and ruins fights (interesting 1v1s get stuffed by the funny instant win). There's no defense to keep it in the game other than "le whacky moment xd" - as if TF2 needs a random win button to be silly.
Brain-dead pubbies may enjoy it, but randomness isn't a good thing. there's a reason they removed random damage spread lol, they should've axed crits while they were at it.
@@Nikotheleepic
I have never seen anyone who actually enjoys playing MOBAs
"We created Team Fortress 2's critical-hit system so that critical-hit chances increase over time based on performance. There's the skill. If you're a good player, you'll always have a higher chance of hitting criticals than novices. On top of that, there's the flat-out fact that crit chance is determined when you fire, right? You can miss crits." - Robin Walker
Wow, this quote looks eerily similar to "It allows pubstompers to stomp pubs harder", just with a sugarcoating
Random crits are fair and balanced but only when I get them
tru
No it’s only when I get them
No it's only when i get them
No it's only when I get them
No it's only when I get them
cause hittin the random crit is fun.
i love random grits like the highs of dishing them and the lows of receiving them are something that you don’t really feel much in video games and is unique to tf2
I remember, when first playing Team Fortress 2, random crits were something I was incredibly confused by random crits because I would never get them. It was only after months of playing that I realized I was only using weapons that couldn't get them - Sniper rifles, swords, knives, and, especially, the Caber. But by that point, I had such a negative relationship with crits that I just wanted them gone entirely so I didn't have to deal with them.
A lack of random shits is yet another reason why I'm in love with the Dragon's Fury
lmao
in other words, skill issue
Skill issie
how did bro forget how to english
Another amazing video-seriously, they just keep getting better and better! I can’t think of anyone else who could make such a well-researched video that corrects popular misconceptions on such a controversial subject, and so clearly and concisely. Not just one of the best TF2bers, but one of the best gaming youtubers period!
This comment section is too civil and polite - lets change that :
Random Crits keeps the tryhards in check. It keeps the fun & casual nature of TF2 maintained, knowing that all their skill and practice will help them 90% of the match. Just not that 10%.
It affects the overall mood of the server. Look at uncletopia and nocrit "casual" servers - the moment there's a single tryhard demo and medic gf you're FORCED to tryhard yourself, just to survive. Then the meta loadouts comes, nofun scouts, and it just becomes comp-lite.
"But random crits benefit tryhards the most because they do most damage"
And they get mad the most when killed by a crocket. Pablo.Gonzales.2007 isn't crying at the crocket, he was getting stomped anyways. But Pablo was not killing anyone on his own, maybe assists. When he gets the crocket kill (especially a revenge kill), he gets the high moment he's missing in the game. Tryhard pubstomper gets no additional enjoyment. He's just rewarded more multikills if enemies are grouped together (opposing team's fault).
Random crits raises the high moments for lower skilled(or effort) players, and in turn lowers the already high ego of a high skilled (or effort) player. The best thing a tryhard can do when killed by random crit is realize this game is meant to be taken lightly, have fun, and realize their "skills" are good for 90% of the game time, just let others remaining have fun.
I just want random crits to remain the way it is in most of the servers, and nocrits to remain in other dedicated servers for those who want it. When i want to tryhard, i just play counterstrike/dota2/valorant/any other multiplayer game in the market. I want TF2 to remain "that fun game". That's the reason even after 15 years, this game is noob friendly, and not completely dominated by high level players.
Absolutely agree.
Exactly. Nobody seems to remember how Tribes: Ascend died: it got dominated by elite players who'd been at it for years. If you wanted a chance at beating them, you wielded the chat log. Mostly that just meant getting hit 75% of the time, instead of 100% of the time.
I get the sentiment and sorta agree kritz can help some people feel better but most players aren’t noobs or elites, they’re just normal guys who have fun when they have teamwork and like two frag out, and these guys just get randomly punished four just playing the game. It doesn’t make em take the game less seriously or let em goof off, they’re just dead and mildly annoyed (like how you’d feel from getting killed by a sniper halfway across the map). Hell even if they themselves get a crit most of the time all it does is just secure a kill because most classes must be in close range two actually have your shots land in the first place (except if you’re an explosive class)
Also arguably getting random crit by pablo does less two tilt or at least cause self reflection a tryhard than actually getting outplayed, because a crit you can blame on rng, getting outplayed is a skill issue.
(Plus random crits benefit sniper the most and I don’t think sniper needs any more things stacked in his favour)
This was a fantastic video, I never thought of it this way before. Applying this logic would also explain why CTF gives crits when you capture the flag.
Random crits also prevent a toxic esport mentality.
0:12 I just love how pyro wins again spy, medic again engie and sniper against heavy, just like in game
Honestly, the pacing thing is why i kinda love the last holdout on almost every payload maps. Usually blu team is absolutely at a disadvantage, but not having victory be guarunteed just makes achieving it that much sweeter.
rare to find a commenter suggest this but, i would say like almost all of this guy’s viewers are not subscribed despite him having a large currently “loyal” audience, obviously you dont have to subscribe but he seriously has only 35K subs yet has a lot of views AND likes on his tf2 history videos
Probably because he doesn't do funny SFM tf2uber quick edits, dramatic voiceover, or throws meaningless hot takes.
Despite being years old majority of TF2's fanbase has always been wacky lolsorandom type
@@gurlight2131tf2 content was always random and loud = funny tf are you talking about?
I just realized I wasn't subed. huh, weird.
As someone who recently got back into tf2 and been playing casually. I feel like I quite enjoy random crits for some reason.
I guess it’s the feeling of hope? Like even if you are outgunned there is still a tiny hope of a random crit. Meanwhile, even when you are dominating the enemy, you still need to be careful and try to avoid damage since every shot might be a random crit.
Yeah, I guess it’s the feeling of “not being able to just intentionally tank a rocket to the face” making it feel exciting.
Another great video! The scripting and the tone of your voice plus the editing really bring this video essay style of video together! I’m looking forward to your future endeavors!
Dude that demo flying throw your screen at 12:21 scared the hell out of me 😂
It sent me flyin lmao
@@jhunt7235 some agrees with me
6:18 *Voice communication is not available for this account*
I would argue that Team Fortress isn't quite as balanced as people make it out to be, at least competitively. "Generalist" classes are the only real serious option in a lot of situations, and certain classes (Spy and engineer) see almost zero play across the board at high levels (6s). Highlander is a Band-Aid solution, but that's not even mentioning Sniper, who invalidates every class interaction in the game.
I agree, that's the reason valve never support TF2's comp, compared to that of CS or DOTA.
@@articcenturion8387 they did try for a while
its just that most of that was kinda half assed
Certain classes also deal with the issue of being the class most don’t want to play but which have to be picked that valve tried to avoid in the first place. Medic and heavy primarily. I say heavy also because a heavy is paramount in some pushes to take and dish out damage to most classes which usually would be more free to do whatever they want. He is the frontline which if kept alive will push the team to victory, which means in most offensive and sometimes defensive situations, as some point the heavy is kinda needed or is actually viable.
Medic and heavy aren’t as enticing of options as the other classes for most, so they end up being the least played classes, especially in pubs, even though they are both very important.
Valve tried to avoid this with demo and succeeded, but as a result they forgot to do that with classes like medic and heavy. It sucks because both have potential to go outside of their class roles every once in a while and be viable, but they aren’t given the chance.
I’d argue tf2 is at least somewhat well balanced
6s isn’t tf2 though
In a real game 12 players mean scout is much less effective due to 1v1s being less common and his counters being more common and also any game mode other than 5cp and koth actually lets people play other classes and the more engineers and heavy’s allowed to leave the spawn room for once the less effective a try hard scout can be on his own
Also engineer is used at high levels of comp bust mostly as a final point holder like heavy
These balance issues are more of a 6s problem than a tf2 problem
I genuinely never fully understood the logic behind random crits until you explained it in this video. Awesome job!
Some weapons also rely on random crits to be effective. Scotsman's Skullcutter makes you run slower when active but on the other hand its the only "sword" to let you random crit with it, Third Degree is also another one where its just a typical stock axe with the ability to damag both the medic and patient as long as they are connected. Alternatively random crit also acts as a nerf like with Ubersaw, sure you killed that spy and gained 25% of uber on hit which turned out to be a crit, but it's better to get a 2nd hit instead.
If you get the 25 uber on hit and kill the spy you can build the rest of uber. Without random crits the spy can gun you down after the first shot
Crit-farming with the skullcutter is the funnest. The extra damage adds really nicely into it.
Also making medics shit themselves when you whip out the third degree is the most hilarious thing. He has to gamble whether healing his current pocket is worth this risk of getting beamcrit, or if it's better to bail before it's too late. It's like a trustfall but as a game mechanic, I'm not sure which is the funnier outcome. Both of them getting a synchronized death, or a the pocket standing over a pyro that crumpled like paper and just realizing his medic abandoned him.
"better to get a 2nd hit instead" Medic mains say this like they wouldn't just get facestabbed before the 2nd hit
Critical hits currently seem to encourage individual aggressiveness rather than teamwork. So I'm a bit surprised that the random crit floor wasn't made to dynamically alter based thru-out a match. Like on Attack/Defend & Payload games, BLU Team's base crit rate could be based on objective progress, increasing as more progress is made & if progress is currently being made. RED Team's base crit rate could increase as the timer draws closer to zero, leading to more decisive shut downs. More symmetric game modes could still adjust crit rate based on objective progress & could just give both teams an increase based the timer nearing zero. This would make matches more hectic as they drag on...
I ain't a game designer tho, don't know how this would actually affect the game, & knowing TF2's spaghetti code this would probably be too difficult & time consuming to properly implement.
CTF does have capture crits.
Good luck with teamwork with 12 randos on the internet who could play game for 5 minutes or 5000 hours and stop in the middle of battle to laugh at funny ragdoll
Eh respawning times already kind of do that which why random crits on top of it make it feel even worse.
7:46
"Theory only gets you so far"
- Robbie J. Sloppenheimer
This is highly inteesting. I read the blog posts, listened to the commentaries and saw countless videos and forum posts on random crits. I understood the intention behind them, but somehow, until I saw this video, I couldn't really understand how Valve came to the conclusion that this would work like they imagined in practice. I think it makes more sense now, thank you.
"If random crits were a problem, they would've been removed from the game... 15 YEARS AGO!!!" -Some random guy on the voice chat
> Only AAA FPS with random crits as we know them
> Outlives the average African child by several years
Obviously random crits are killing this game.
They're good when I get them but bad when they hit me
This is my totally unbiased stance on the matter
There is no way you made a video about randomCrits in 2023 and actually said something that I did not hear before
I personally enjoy the random element that random crits provide. Yes they can be frustrating to get killed by, yes they can ruin a good 1v1, but going on a crit streak with the pan or reflecting a random crit rocket is so much fun.
I have a Scottsman's Skullcutter with crit kills as a tracked stat that I use exclusively on DeGroot Keep and boy do those crit streaks roll hard.
"Besides, I like the phlog, so what do I know?" has got to be the funniest last words to a video yet.
Clearly the solution to this is to give players random ubers to compensate. For every damage taken, you have a small chance of being invulnerable for 2 seconds
Ooohh, interesting idea!
What if, instead of Uber, it would be a miss?
Like the Bonk!
It would even make Sniper a little bit more fair to fight, as, if the sniper misses, you have the chance to fight back(or run for your life)!
Is this serious or a joke?
@@roland.w *Morrowind Flashbacks*
@@O5MO I'm taking it seriously, so 🤷
@@roland.w that's interesting, although i suppose it would only amplify the anger random crits provide, since its infuriating for the attacked, but the defender wouldn't even notice, making it a net negative.
I've played TF2 for close to 10 years (though not consistently) and I don't really remember much of it. Sure, I've had absolutely great moments and absolutely terrible moments, but they only stick for a little while. However, the one moment I still remember quite vividly, despite it happening a long-long time ago, was the start of a match on 2Fort when I fired a random crit at the enemy balcony, killing 3-4 players before they even knew what was happening.
For me, that was quite magical. Probably less so for the unlucky buggers I crocketed. But I think it is an example of the justifications dug up for keeping the failed mechanic: this creating random lucky moments where the stars align and you'll manage something you'll remember and talk about for weeks or more to come. I don't remember my first backstab as a Spy, or my first headshot as a Sniper, or my first Ubercharge as a Medic, or my first time topping a scoreboard. All great moments, lost to the ravages of time. But that one random Crocket that was a literal WTF-moment...
That's gonna last me a lifetime.
At least for another couple of years.
random crits are something like "pay to win" correctly more damage to win.
only one idea for havinbg random crits is random crits only for dying players: when the game starts, all players have 0% chance for random crit, but soon as someone dies and doesn't kill anyone, he get a small chance for a crit, and if he kill someone, his chance decreases. In practice, this means that the more you fail, the stronger you become and when you have high killstreak you cant have random crit.
But still, the best option is to completely remove this mechanic
It's bewildering to me that a videogame would reward a team already crushing the other with even more crushing power. It's possibly the dumbest game design decision of all time.
Wow, that Scout who dared to turn around a corner and ate a random crit spam rocket across the map right after leaving spawn at the beginning of the game surely did feel the flow of the match changing in a climactic crescendo, didn't he?
My heart bleeds. RIP Bozo.
I actually love feeling like the boss that is destined to lose in a long drawn out battle. its like a final stand.
Exactly. Nothing more badass than standing tall against an unstoppable tide.
There isn't a better feeling in TF2 than being a lone medic with an enemy soldier in my face, I'm at 50 HP and I decide to do a desperate melee swing.
That sweet, sweet 195 damage, letting me live another day. I love how encounters in TF2 aren't set in stone.
??? what part of that was "set in stone" if you took out the random crits, the entire point of playing medic is that you aren't supposed to take 1v1s
literally the counterplay is "do not go in alone at 50 health against a good 1v1 class"
Melee crits are more common than normal hits.
@@HeDronHeDronHedron Its fun because it occasionally breaks the rules of Medic by allowing him to escape out of a scenario he normally wouldn't have.
1:50
Wait, people actually interpret the phase "rare high moments" to mean the crit, itself, is the "rare high moment"?
I've always interpreted that phrase to mean the crits assist in keeping long killstreaks going, with those long killstreaks being the high moments. Which is why you are more likely to deal a crit based on your damage.
Sure, a crit itself isn't rare per se, but the rareness comes from the killstreak itself.
That is exactly what he meant. Crits were designed to help good players continue to play well, or at least to let decent players get a higher killstreak than what they normally would be capable of. TF2 was always designed as a casual experience where you kinda need players of all skill levels together to provide the right level of chaotic fun, and crits add to that hectic, unpredictable feeling.
I thought the same, probably because the developer commentary node that line comes from literally says that crits were intended to create killstreaks, that's why they have the crit bucket. Most people haven't played those maps tho.
Why wouldn’t you wanna ruin 8/9 classes with one crit rocket and then leaving the last one begging for his life because, you got lucky!
Funny
*Laughs in pyro main*
One thing I think they could do is add crit explosion radius falloff for rockets in particular, but I don’t know how that would pan out and I think more experimenting would have to be done.
@@TeenWithACarrotIDK or maybe make rockets do not have random crits? only damage area attacks, like flamethrower, bombs, rockets, because that can kill a team very unfairy, but when it's about of weapons like the shotgun (you have to aim, and the spread nerfs it), the smg, minigun, flare gun, and other attacks that are only bullets and not area damage
"We're not dying! We are going to live forever!"
―Soldier from Team Fortress 2
I didn't say that:/ I just said we weren't filled with tumors:/
alright the point of ''good players have something to blame'' is actually really good because i literally am one of the poeple who do that, ill be getting a killstreak with scout then crocket turns me into a fine red mist and all i can say is "FUCKING BULLSHIT"
I have blamed a lot of deaths on crits when I was already at like 50 hp and would die anyway. It's smart design.
My reason is because it’s just really fucking funny like imagine you go up to a medic and bash his skull in with a bottle and it just kills him instantly
I'm happy this video wasn't just another "I died to a crit rocket and it hurt my feelings remove them now." You make some very interesting points.
Based Deus Ex pfp
This also would make it, since it scales with damage dealt instead of deaths or damage recieved, really easy to spawn camp. If it had a more Underdog system (and the random crits dealt less damage) it would probably help that Crescendo they want. That way it feels like even if you are spawn camped you still have a fighting chance. That way that final push, even when being steamrolled, would still be climactic.
You are genuinely my favorite tf2 youtuber. Keep up the amazing work!!
But U are mine :)
10/10 video. Splendid and intelligent script with some silky smooth editing
I can’t believe they didn’t master Etc. 😔
Counter Strike has rng. Dota 2 has rng. People don’t realize moments in games that make you go “that was bullshit!” makes the game more engaging.
Min/Maxing and predatory micro transactions is what’s killing gaming.
I find random crits funny so i love them.
simple as
In a first person shooter game (or third person) no matter what game it is there is undoubtable one unfair feature within the game that no player can really overcome, and I'll tell you what it's not what your expecting. The most unfair part of any game is skill. Now think about for a moment what a truly fair fight it, it is a fight in which both combatants are on evenly placed situations with none prohibiting or favoring the other. In such a "fair fight" there is truthfully no determining factor at which would decide the winner, as they are completely equal in all aspects for it is fair. Skill is an unfair system and that is it's most appealing part, in any fight there always has to be some determining factor that favors either side for them to win or else it be like having two people punch each other with the same amount of force. Tf2 has both features meant to inhibit and favor the determining factor to be skill. Such as with weapon rebalances and teamwork oriented features, all things meant to reward and make sure success within a skill based determining factor. While with things like sentries and Ubers, both something at which can be achieved by waiting in safe zones are things that deter the determining factor from being skill. As this video demonstrates and with what I have just layed out, shows that Valve's design is focused secondarily on skill and more of game flow. I think that Random Kritz are purposely meant to be easy to obtain and rewarding as it alters skill from being a determining factor in game flow. As per with the purpose of Uber's and Sentries they both change game flow in a slower or faster pace, however these both can cause the opposite of what their meant to by halting game flow in a fast or slow pace. By having random Kritz remove skill from being an entire determining factor of victory and being able to alter game flow pace mechanics such as sentries and medics (before Ubered), It succeeds as a mechanic that makes game flow constantly variable and undeterminable by any main factors besides a role of the dice. Which is why I think that Kritz aren't a good mechanic, but a successful mechanic in what purpose it brings to the game. Which is also why I think casual is so different of an experience compared to servers.
Just wanna say that I appreciate that you tried to look at random crits objectively and the design philosophy behind them, and not the usual viewpoint of "random crits bad because random" and harping on about why you don't like them.
To be fair, this video is still kinda an argument on why they don't work
I bet that the evolution of sniper will be the shortest video out of all 9 classes.
2007: sniper can click on heads
2009: huntsman
2017: now snipers click on heads with a bunch of different glorified reskins
I played TF2 Classic for a long while now since my wifi is a bit shit and vanilla TF2's training bots have poorly coded AI, but TF2C's AI is more realistic to actual players. But that's not my point, my point is that TF2C *has no random crits*, and it actually took me a while to notice that. And in many times the game actually became boring because I missed the satisfying expectation that in many moments like a crit swing or a rocket into a large group will have a crit in them. But sadly no, it never happened. And so when I got to hop into TF2 again and I got a random crit, it was like reuniting with an old friend again.
i like random crits in tf2. seeing a spy walking up to you while playing sniper, he expects to get an easy kill but then you whip out your kukri and whack him in the head for huge damage. sure I just got lucky, but it's insanely satisfying. if i die to a random crit, chances are i would have died anyways
"For those rare high moments" TF2 dev.
The Gravelpit dev commentary actually explains crits really well, it's the only in-game explanation of how crit chance ramps up that I'm aware of.
its crazy i never noticed the pacing design before, but its so obvious if you think about it, like thats the reason the final point of (almost) every map is ultra chokey and with red spawn literally next to the point
I think another thing to make random crits more enjoyable is making the gun glow like the kritkrieg. It would help the player who got the crit and say “hey, you got a nuke in your hand, push!” which is exactly what using your momentum is supposed to be. plus a few changes to make crits less infuriating.
I mean Shounic did an experiment exactly like that and it was pretty well received
ua-cam.com/video/YURn9IkYSqI/v-deo.html
Shounic make a video teating this very thing
This was tested before. The problem is that people would farm for crits at spawn and use them at first sight with the enemy.
That's a good idea. Add to that have the person with the glowing weapon also be marked for death. Just like with scouts Crit cola. Giving the player with the crit a risk and reward factor.
@@a348d imagine being randomly marked for death through no fault of your own.
This is an incredibly fun devil's advocate piece. You have completely convinced me there was a reason behind random crits, and that reason had good intentions. But I also agree with your conclusion that it was a failed experiment.
Maybe random crits should be changed so they are guaranteed. Something like you are guaranteed a crit every 50 hits, and the interval is reduced hyperbolically per 150 damage you've dealt in the past 20 seconds.
I think the player isnt actually supposed to plan around random crits like how it's described in your video. It seems like it's there to subliminally condition people to push harder when they're performing well (since they sometimes get a reward for doing so), which would make sense since the goal is to motivate people to maintain momentum.
Personally I think I actually feel the effect of the conditioning because so many times I remember mowing down a team as heavy and then not wanting to retreat back because I had a feeling I could get even more kills if I keep going further, and then half the time I would actually be right and get a few crits to kill a couple more enemies.
This guy gets it. Finally someone who uses their brain
Did you watch the rest of the video? He says that the base rate is too high and the slope is too shallow for that conditioning to actually work properly. Plus, there's already a benefit to getting a few kills: man advantage. Why do we need to give the winning team an even stranger advantage?
@@fedweezy4976 one: his reference to the crit slope was specifically for the reasons why momentum isn't being kept >>NOT>CONDITIONING
"(since they sometimes get a reward for doing so)" my guy, if thewyre already performing well THEY HAVE ALREADY BEEN RECIEVING A REWARD OF KILLING THE ENEMY
@@Helperbot-2000 ok??? The goal is to encourage people to recognize when they're ahead and utilize the momentum not just to "kill enemies harder"...... nothing you said was clever. Clearly the game just existing didn't fix that problem like you implied it would.
He's back!
Not gonna like, your scripts are basically the best source for me as a german to learn more [less commonly used] vocabulary.
I like how you amusingly challenge our uncritical mind by leading us to one direction and believe the known-all tf2ber just to say the opposite "this is great! or that's what I would have said if it was actually the case... (you fools!)"
(you also do it at the right pace to let us realize it - which is great)
I think a change to random crits that would possibly be okay for tf2 players is for the chance if random crits increase based on their killstreak
In short, random crits work as inteded lol
I main medic and always find it anticlimactic when manage to kill an offense class because I was lucky.
Now instead of a tense chase where I survive by the skin of my teeth, I just feel awkward.
Random crits aren't fair but...
weapons are balanced to have random crits. Some weapons have "no random crits" in their description for a reason.
I will never forgive Uncle Dane.
because they are fun
Random crits being kept in game to give a scapegoat for more competitive players to complain about is honestly the best reason to keep them in game.
The issue is that that also doesn't work
They're just another thing to bitch and moan and complain about on top of sniper and the wrangler and airblast strafe knockout and and and
Balancing the game over actual balance
Overdone, bland, noone agrees
Balancing the game over "some guy might whine about it so let's add an even shittier mechanic"
Rarely done for some reason, very weird, lots of people agree that this is shit
@@disgustingg ay, that be true. Give competitive players Lichtenstein and they'll take Russia.
@@HeDronHeDronHedron "Balancing the game over actual balance
Overdone, bland, no one agrees" I actually agree with that, and you unironically made a better argument for random crits then against. I strongly disagree with the statement that TF2 is a balanced game because I feel such a statement ignores all the side grade weapons that exist within this game, and that the game steers towards encouraging stupid, dumb fun in its design rather then balance.
"Balancing the game over "some guy might whine about it so let's add an even shittier mechanic"
Rarely done for some reason, very weird, lots of people agree that this is shit" I do not remember saying anything similar to this.
@@Goallpeashooters "Don't remember saying anything like that"
Here, you said "give a scapegoat for more competitive players to complain about".
Obviously a game will never be perfectly balanced but it's such a waste to not even try to reward skill. Soldier is an example. He's such a fun and skill rewarding class, there are several ways to play, he's highly mobile, basically the peak of TF2. He also has an extremely high skill ceiling mechanically. If we balance around making things reward skill better than we can have a really good game, it's not right to just waste this potential
I have come to see random crits as a way to keep newer players engaged when they are outclassed by experienced players
people love this theoretical idea but I haven't seen one new player say this.
I never thought about this.
Wow I've watched every random crit video in the last 10 years and this one is so different, I didn't know or consider some of this info. Edit: Your video is great btw lol
In my opinion, TF2 should have a "team crit chance". I'd love to see a Shounic video on that. Like Awesomenauts, the better your team does, your team's level increases allowing you to snowball. TF2 should have a dynamic crit chance based on what's happening.
For example:
Payload - As blu team is ON the cart, they get 10% increased crit chance (don't hate me, the numbers are hypothetical). As the cart begins moving backwards, red team gets 10% increased crit chance. While the cart isn't moving, neither team gets the bonus, and when a cart (or control point) is being contested (both teams are on it, stopping eachother) then BOTH teams get the bonus in an attempt to roll the dice to knock someone off of it and move on with the match.
I REALLY want to see a shounic video on this now.
I was thinking about that while watching too. Maybe have the entire team's performance determine how high the crit chance ceiling is and what any individual team member can cap out their crit chance at, then change the crit scaling accordingly. So the team that's being stomped can only ever max at 20% chance by their one good player, but there's 2 or 3 streaks going on the other team that have their crit chances ramped up to like 40% or 50%. And this could potentially help get more players on the actively snowballing team up and killstreaking with crits so it's not neccessarily a one or two player operation, which I feel like is what it usually is.
great idea, lets make pubstompers even more unfun to fight against, fucking gigabrain genius. did you get this gigamind idea from musk?
11:00
I had this exact thing happen in my last game. Everything was going good, we were barely holding off each attack by the thinnest of margins. 30 seconds left to go, a heavy fresh from spawn just walks out into the line of fire, got the random crits that just destroyed a good third of the team before anyone even had a chance to respond. The game just said 'you lose here and there's nothing your team could have done to prevent it'
So accept the loss and move on instead of "NOTHING WE COULD DO I CANT ACCEPT A DEFEAT LIKE MY PRIDE DEPENDS ON IT".
*Random crits create those rare high moments*
The reasons people give for liking random crits are always poorly reasoned. But the catch is that people like it, regardless of their brainrot reasons. Why would the game remove something that half the players like? If I was the lead TF2 developer and I had the switch to flip off random crits... I don't think I would do it despite how much I dislike crits. There's game design philosophy, and then there's just doing what people want. The sad reality is not enough people want random crits removed, polls always come up close. I would only remove random crits if I had strong evidence that many players quit TF2 because of random crits specifically, that would invalidate the currently close polls.
Pretty much every conversation about random crits splits it down the middle of around 50%. That's mostly data from people who are big fans of TF2, the casual audience might be lower or higher for whatever reasons.
Valve obviously care and I'd go so far as to say most Valve employees probably don't like crits. But if it is about 50/50 split, they're always going to default to doing exactly what they do best: Nothing.
@@VanessaMagick I'd go so far as to say there aren't more than 1 Valve employees that care much about TF2 at all. But otherwise I agree.
I think it's interesting how different the two camps are here because the "no random crit gang" always tries to bring game design into it and explain their hate for it, but the people who enjoy random crits just enjoy the spice regardless of how stupid it may be.
In simpler matters of taste, I'd argue no one is 100% objectively correct, but it is funny to watch people try to explain their opinion as "the best one". I think they have a point in the sense that if I were designing a shooter nowadays, I wouldn't put them in, or at the very least I would design them differently. But I'm relatively neutral here. I like the variety/spice they bring to matches overall, and yeah it does feel worse when I'm pounded by them constantly, but I'd rather feel something than let the game feel more solved and potentially boring. That being said, I wouldn't exactly bellyache if they were default off on Valve's servers a la Uncletopia.
All this being said, the video demonstrating Valve's rationale (and why it's similarly flawed in practice) is quite interesting.
Why not silently remove them? That way noone will go on a rampage about how it all of a sudden "Became too competitive" then weeks later say you are going to rmeove them
@@HeDronHeDronHedron Community servers have disabled random crits and nobody even realized they were turned off.
I doubt you could turn ON crits on like, Uncletopia without people noticing though
0:28
He's a BLU Soldier. Who shot a red crochet
Im avoiding no crit servers these days since trying to stop the tryhard demo and medic combo rolling the server with an uncoordinated team without crits is frankly impossible haha. So they serve their purpose imo
yes i think he missed that point. random crits make very good players less powerful and new players more valid. which increases the casualness of tf2. i think they serve this purpose quite well
Just go spy
@@HeDronHeDronHedronanybody with more than 2 hours will recognize a spy from a mile away lil bro
except when the pro demo is the one getting random crits constantly (since he is the one doing the damage, ramping up his own random crit chance), at that point he is just stomping harder, leaving your team with even LESS options
@@SpreadLoveMovies no, random crits SPECIFICALLY reward those who are better at the game more
I like random crits because it leaves me unsure as to what will happen in a given interaction.
Random crits are..
Fun.
That is all that matters to me.
Random crits aren't the only implementation of the "momentum" idea. Players get respawned in waves to create natural coordination; the frequency of these waves, and thus your average respawn timer, varies with objective progress. (I could've sworn there was also a hidden mechanic called "momentum" that adjusted respawn times based on a team's death rate, but I can't find any documentation of it now.)
To be completely honest, having random crits enabled indeed benefits the gameplay BUT ONLY ON MELEES.
Melee was designed around random crits, and im tired of people acting like it wasnt.
Or they could just... redesign melee not around random crits.
Only on stock weapons which is viable only on demo, spy, and I guess sniper every other class has a better melee then stock
no, even crits on melee are a problem. they directly remove the weaknesses of sniper and medic
@@mr.monkey354boohoo
**throws jarate at you**
This is so sad and unpredictable
**kills you with Bushwaka regardless of how you feel about RNG**
Imagine a sniper risking it all with a slow and predictable melee to kill you at where he's most vulnerable
**quickscopes you instantly**
The main reason for anything having random factors in their games, is in the end to keep people playing. Because in the end of the day, a random critical hit you receive means that you are still good at the game. It just decided to hand you a short stick this time. Can't tell yourself the same thing in a game of Counter Strike. If you are bad, you are bad.
It's also lovely to have a casual game to play and TF2 has been that game to me.
"how do random crits fit into this?" thats the neat part, they dont
In the base version of the game before unlocks, random crits probably made more sense, as there was no way to generate them yourself. Now that we have weapons like the Kritzkrieg and Jarate that allow dedicated application of crits/mini crits, I feel that maybe random crits should be re-assessed, I don't think they should be completely removed, but limited to melee weapons only, lets be honest, if you are in a situation where you need to engage in melee combat, you're as good as dead and praying to the crit gods for that extra 5 seconds out of the re-spawn screen, so I say keep them, you're only going to kill one player in that hail Mary play, a crit rocket or pipe though can clear an entire capture point, and everyone who has spent more than 1 match in the game has had the scenario of waiting out your re-spawn timer, walking out those doors and getting sent right back to the re-spawn screen because some crit rocket that has crossed the entire map has just sucker punched you into oblivion.
From my time playing, I've always felt like random crits fit the overall tone of the game. It's not Call of Duty or Overwatch or whatever. You're not supposed to become so emotionally invested that you break your keyboard if you lose. Random crits add a layer of madness and silliness that I think has gone over the heads of many tryhards.
Random crits are this sort of universal equalizer. Consider it the bridge between "It's so over," and "We're so back." No matter how good you've been doing, a crocket can appear right around the corner. And no matter how poorly you're doing, there's that chance that RNJesus will smite your enemies.
Lister makes a very, very big point here about how nobody wants to be on this sinking ship like a final boss that's getting his ass beat. We play games for fun to help us cope with living in this Walmart of a world where we work 50 hours a week to pay rent. We're already getting our teeth kicked in by life; we don't need it from our escapes, too.
Yes, so why would someone want a fair deserved win to be ruined by rng
@@HeDronHeDronHedron I love it. I tend to get complacent when I'm near the top of the leaderboards. Taking sudden crit damage puts the fear of God back in me. It's exciting. It keeps things from being too stale and predictable.
If I wanted stale and predictable, I'd play Counter Strike.
I don't get all the pro-random crits sentiment in the comments section of this video even though the conclusion is very much "random crits were a naive idea executed poorly". I'd say TF2 is plenty chaotic without them. Random crits just make it so sometimes you're in the middle of a fight and the other player gets deleted.
*Yeah* maybe it's funny if I'm a Medic and I'm at a Melee scuffle with a Demoman and I delete them with one swing from the Ubersaw.... it's also kind of gross, and pardon my french, he also kind of fucked his entire team too by giving me that 25% uber. I don't think he'll be laughing at the situation and neither will his teammates.
I love the discussion about highs and lows towards the end of the first third of the video, especially the comparison between TF2 and other games wherein it is mentioned that TF2 advanced pacing in multiplayer games where other games of the time did not. Speaks to the genius of the game's design.
I've been playing TF2 since orangebox and I sincerely hope Valve never removed random crits. Even if it isn't entirely the intention, I feel it's one of the mechanics that helps keep new and casual players coming. Getting a crit kill has a huge impact on someone who would be otherwise struggling to keep up with higher skill players and can make what would be an unfulfilling experience enjoyable. I've seen so many games like this fade into obscurity where only the diehard expert fans stick around, and trying to get into such games as a new player usually ends in extremely frustrating stomps that lead to uninstalling. As someone who's been on both sides of that, I would much rather have good gameplay sessions occasionally interrupted by RNG than see the game die to a lack of players.
I also hope they don't tune the rates to get a more substantial momentum driver - I prefer if it stays as it is; something that has an effect that difficult to notice. I don't really like the idea of dreading a snowballing effect of a particularly effective push. Such things would lead to more people giving up after such events more than not, even further amplifying the effect. It's much better when we can't really see what such a mechanic is doing to gameplay.
pfft, yeah that's whats going to kill this fucking game: a lack of random crits
it's not the lack of content updates, the shitty anti-cheat, rampant bots, the lack of transparency, it's the random crits that's going to keep newbies coming to this game
@@cinereus4670 actually yes
You play games to feel good and have fun and enjoy yourselves.
If you are a newbie in a game like tf2 you re going to get grounded pretty quickly by more competent players.
Doing bad is annoying but keeps you in the game to improve.
But getting 0 KILLS instantly destroys your motivation to play and learn the game.
So a random crit experienced by a newbie is :
A cool flashy explosion or trail of effects that made you get one or multiple kills in a cool way and the release of dopamine of feeling good about doing it.
Its the first taste of accomplishment and gives them a reason to stay and get better even if they are total noobs.
if you people dislike random crits so much why i dont hear yall talk about the crits you get after capping the flag on capture the flag.
I feel those are way more annoying since its 100% crit chance that last for some time and the entire team gets them all at once.
What this means essentially is stay away from enemies until team crits ends.
I find this a lot worse yet no one gives a crap about it.
@@fangrowls6336 ctf is already a dogshit gamemode for that and other reasons (map pool, lack of timer, etc) that I complain about but the key point there is that we can opt put of it, it's not a fundamental game mechanic
also while I can't deny it's fun to get a random crit, it's just that, a little fun that doesn't pull me to the game. when someone joins the community it's because they love the style, the gameplay, the weapon variety, and often times new content like jungle inferno and the most recent major update that added VSH and a bunch of new maps, tf2 literally hit an all time high in july because there was a crumb of new content and a bunch of content creators playing it
people don't come back for random crits, they come back because of the content, like fortnite or cod does. those games are a lot different and are of varying quality but the key point is that the developers are supporting the game, instead of leaving it in the dust like how titanfall 2 was
You lost me at claiming random crits are what helps getting new people into the game when it's more the other way around
@@s0biektywnie most noobs do get them and feel good
I love random crits, sometimes new players get many kills, good players get even more, i have fun when getting one, someone else has more fun when they kill me
Random crits are on the same wave length as Hydro: A neat idea on launch, but just doesn't work in practise. The difference being, that you can't put random crits in alternative game modes and forget about it.
yeah you can just go on servers without random crits
You can leave them in MVM (And VSH), since robots dont get angry being on the recieving end, and in VSH only Hale would recieve crits, but it doesnt matter much to him.
"It doesn't work in practice"
Then why it works in practice?
@@realdragon Yes, you can ger random crits in practise, Hydro is also a map you can play and finish on. What doesn't work in practise is how the developers intended it to work. Nobody looks at random crits to decide wether to push or not. And Hydro isn't on 2Fort levels in term of usage for it's replayability.
@@largin386 The vast majority, roughly 70 ~ 90%, of community servers have random crits on, the no crit option is the minority.
This is the best video on random crits I’ve ever seen in tf2 circles congratulations
I like how random crits influence players thinking more than it affects teams, in any other game a player will get punished for overextending, here both new and old players can get a potential reward in random crits for doing the same thing even creating that sense of high, it makes the player build up this sense of bravery and pushing forward that any other game will try and punish you for
but crits dont help new players
@@ib6458 but it does, new players will learn that building a lead in any match will earn them the victory, but because they are new they will feel like leaving it to everyone else, but having gained a sense of bravery will lead to them defying all logic and jump to a 5v1 encounter in order to fight the impossible odds and become THE roadblock the enemy has to fight, its great
Except like the video pointed out, random crits are too rare to be relied on. I've never in my thousands of hours in TF2 pushed because I thought "ooh I have a 8%ish chance to get a crit!"
If you want to look at a mechanic that actually gives players bravery to push in the way you are claiming, Soldier banners are a superior implementation of that idea.
Also even if crits theoretically help new players, you are kinda overlooking the fact that most new players don't know what's going on, and probably don't even know what random crits are. They just think "why did I sho0t a shiny rocket!?"
@@iminumst7827 EXACTLY, they are really rare yeah, but when you do a callback on your previous reaction to a situation, all you will remember are the times you one shot every single class with one melee swing, that moment you killed 3 guys with a single explosion, that time you held a point all on your own, just completely impossible moments, all just because you were a little braver, the best part would be that as you said the new guy doesnt even know what he did, he just make the imposible a reality, and he never will know
i like the soldier banners tho the sound they make are so awesome
@@undererlevelmob7605 but like, that never happens, i dont know what world u live in, but i got 4 friends into tf2 and NONE of them thought for a second that a RANDOM crit would help them win, what u said, about jumping into a 1v5, is called playing stupid, so having a CHANCE, aka something RANDOM that you cant count on, would just have the new guy play like a dumbass and get kills because of it, and yes, playing like a dumbass is a thing, but it isnt RANDOM, skill gets you out of it, not a 2% to kill everyone, ur a bot if u think a new player can get into a 1v5 without dying, and bc of a random crit can kill everyone, thats stupid, and its stupid u think this could happen. and the new guy cant even become a roadblock bc the RANDOM crit is RANDOM and isnt 100% gonna happen, when have you died to a RANDOM crit and thought, "i earned that kill from skill alone, not bc i jumped the enemy team bc i suck a fps's and i lack gamesense, but bc i knew that this 2% RANDOM crit would save me"
I've been working on a multiplayer FPS game inspired primarily by TF2 for quite some time now, and it's fascinating to see Valve's reasoning behind random kritz.
My game has a similar system for turns out a similar reasons: most weapons get kritboosted for a single shot for 2 seconds, so one player can feasibly rip and tear through the entire enemy team, as long as they can aim.
I wonder if it would work in the context of TF2.
I hope it won't take 9 years in development for your game. Is it your first game or are you working in a team?
@@gurlight2131 it's not my first game per se, but it is the first of this scale. Multiplayer is kind of out of my depth, tbh.
And I do work alone, because I'm an insufferable bitch.
brilliant video-- really illuminative demonstration of valve's m.o., as they use really specific tweaks to foster such ebbs and flows in the pacing of a match. great vid!
for me, random crits are a sudden increase of confidence in the chaos of the battle what lets the character hit a critical whit 80% accuracy. epic