The romans almost worshipped gease because a goose was the only one who gave the alarm when Rome was attacked in an ancient battle, the guards and their dogs were sleeping, the romans were so crazy that they literally murdered a dog every single year for centuries to "punish" the dogs that had failed to alert them to the intruder, "the supplice of the cannine" in ancient rome, look it up
That one hussar at about two hours (video time) is getting so pumped to go back home and brag to his buddies about his grand slaughter, and he's going to ride over the hill into his home valley and be like "WTF happened here? I thought we were winning!"
@@jeroen92 not necessarily, both sets of semis were far more exciting than the finals. Also the comments of a video like this isn't a safe place to look if you don't want spoilers. Incidentally you can watch the recorded finals on T90's twitch page, and could have done so for a while now, so you don't have to wait for him to post it here. I watched 2 games in the finals and didn't bother with the rest, both semis were far more exciting. The second game of the finals was almost a low elo legends game 😆
The differences in playstyle make this so unpredictable as well sometimes. Game 2 is probably my favorite as I really thought after the first defense that John would have it. Skirms against mangonels, low numbers, win the engagement... What?
I’ve watched it three times. If John was playing anyone else he wins that game 2. The pressure Ivaylo put in John’s Eco while dealing with relentless pressure on his own eco was legendary.
It's pretty much a moot discussion. The worst offender is still first game arabia - ask any arena player. And that's a staple in most tournaments. In the end, the player with the better preparation and execution wins - especially on the new maps.
@@Link1506 All these maps are open, this tournament is not designed around arena players it is designed around maps with lots of action. Also, no cares that there were set maps, people care that Ivaylo only got 1 home map and had to play against 3 of John's home maps. If both players had only 2 picks and no matter the result of the 5th game the person who hadn't played 2 home maps yet got the map, then it would be fair because both players would always have 2 home maps and we could keep the interesting set maps as well.
I was so expecting an Ivaylo 4-2 win when I saw the timestamp at the start of game 6. When T90 predicted a game 7 with 15 minutes left on the video I said, "no way". I was wrong. Amazing set.
Well, it may seem unfair, but it's really mostly random chance based on the layout (games 1, 4, and 7 are on set maps). John just happened to manage wins on games 3 and 6 when Ivaylo couldn't change the next map anyhow. Notice however that John only won 1/3 of his home maps any way. His most convincing victories were on Bypass and Mudflow.
@@LittleBigPeach Consider that Ivaylo won 100% of his home maps, meaning he did have something prepared for those maps. Had the order by which players have won their map been different, it is very possible that Ivaylo would have won the set (and most likely the tournament). Btw, john won 2/3 of his home maps (not 1/3) and was very close to winning all of his home maps, which makes a big difference. My point is that this format is highly subjected to chance and should be changed somehow, especially considering that this is the biggest AoE2 tournament of the every year.
Me: I have no idea how they're going to fit another game in with the amount of time left. Also Me: Oh that's how. GG great series! One of the best micro duels between players ever
I was sure that it would end 4-2 when the 6th game started and there was roughly 40min of the video left.. what an insane semi final and comeback! Much love
Great Games and great series, but the home map/set map situation needs to be overlooked for the next tourney. If you really want set maps, you could just make game6 2nd homemap of whoever only got to choose one at this point. 3vs1 homemaps is an advantage that shouldn't be overlooked. Obviously I'm not saying that it would have changed the outcome of the series, but it could have. Spoilers ahead. Look at John the fearless, it really felt to me that he is unbeatable on Cup, he really got this map figured out through the tournament and maybe Ivaylo had the same going for him on a different map but could not utilise it. Nonetheless I think this series has a deserved winner, but for the future it would be fair to give the losing player his 2nd homemap in game6 instead of 3 homemaps for the eventual winner. Just my thoughts on this.
not an issue, everyone keeps saying 3 home maps to 1 but out of those ivaylo won 2 and john won 2. What about the previous one of admiral vs sundjata where it was 2 home maps of sundjata to 1 of admiral and admiral won all of them. or even the grand final, john vs admiral, 2 home maps to 1 for admiral, but john won 2 of them anyway. The rules were completely clear and can go either way for either player, makes it all the more important to win the fixed maps that can get most practice on
@@anishnair1063 When I watched it live the set maps already seemed odd to me during the first semi final. It doesn't really matter who won these homemaps. As a player in a tournament you choose these homemaps because you feel more comfortable playing on it or you may have a strategy prepared. None of this implies that you will definetly win on that map. But it is to your disadvantage if your opponent can choose 3 times and you only once. It is not the biggest deal, Viper said he misread the rules (that's on him) and got frustrated (understandable). I think it may have gotten into his head, maybe should have had a quick break to refocus.
Yeah. Viper played worse in games 6 and 7. Almost as if he expected his home map to come up in game 6 and it threw him off. Hera played amazingly and won deservedly under these conditions, but if the home maps were fair maybe Viper would have played better in the last two matchups and he would have won deservedly.
54:30 Insane few minutes of the game. :) A bit later you can also see 5 hero hussars, destroying that treb. If not for them, the castle from Icaylo would definitely fall. Didn't see that the first time I watched this game live. Actually all the game was insane, it was beautiful. )
I rarely comment on UA-cam videos. But I had to comment on this magnificent performance by both players. This is the best 7-set series in the history of AoE2. Every game a classic. Each game is an epic, culminating in a 7-part movie series a la LOTR/Star Wars. . That John the Fearless came back from that crushing defeat in game 2 where he seemed to have given up his every ounce of strength; That he won the deciding game with Indians, a traditionally lower quality Civ, against the greatest player of the game - that shows what level John reached in this tournament. . Great commentary as always folks.
Dude Vipers performance in that first game on Arabia, total domination. Grace and precision. With top tier micro, didn’t lose a single magonel, and that’s why he is the goat.
It does seem like a unfair system where the winner of the set has chosen 3 home maps and the loser has chosen 1 home map, it kinda messes with the integrity of the competition because it undoubtedly gave a player an undue advantage.
It feels like there‘s always some room for discussion about who did or did not have an unfair advantage. I‘d rather wait for what the players themselves have to say and for now leave it at stating that I have no clue why there were set maps after Arabia.
@@btarczy5067 both players have made statements according to reddit that boil down to them not liking how that worked out and that it was unfair on both of them. The loser did not get a fair amount of home maps and the winner gets their victory questioned because of that rather than just being accepted although no one has blamed anyone for it as no one foresaw that the current rules could work out in that way.
@@lonerangerv1224 Thanks! Yeah, I think the fact this is a topic at all now is just frustrating because Hera is still a deserving winner despite the circumstances. Not that I can‘t see why it would be brought up! I‘m just annoyed about the possibly lingering implications that this was a tarnished victory when he played like an absolute beast.
@@btarczy5067 It is all just so messy for everyone involved. Not helped that some people have wanted to accuse anyone bring this issue up as just a fanboy wanting to find an excuse for why the person lost. Hopefully this is just a growing pain sort of thing and all sorted out for next time
The fact there were forced maps on round 4 and 7 made this bracket in the tourney pretty lame. If you happened to lose round 3 and round 6 then you would get screwed out of two map picks, a common courtesy after losing a round. And that’s exactly what happened to Ivaylo. Gave an unfair advantage to John by dumb luck.
I disagree my friend, it was notified in advance and u are suposed to prepare for these maps as well as for your home picks. I agree it was unfortunate for The Snake but it was no dumb luck. It was the agreed terms of HC4. And I am in favour of having one or two new maps being 'forced' in Bo7.
@@pianodentist6750 I don’t have a problem with having forced maps either. Just the way it was implemented. If you’re going to have forced maps then maybe they should all be stacked at the beginning, like Arabia has always been. So both players get to have a home map advantage every time they’re on the back foot after that. Or have a set comprised entirely of pre planned maps. Orrr have a pool of forced maps, and instead of Arabia being the first decider map for every match, it may be any of the forced maps from the pool as the first map of a set, and Arabia can be a home map pic for one of the players if they want it. I think I like this last idea the most if mixing in new maps is a goal of the tourney. Cause if you scatter them in the middle like this. Then you can be in a situation where one person loses and then gets a home map advantage, wins because that advantage, and then the loser who now should also be able to get to pick a home map doesn’t get that same advantage to try and make a comeback.
@@pianodentist6750 we’ve advanced to tourney maps with safe resources for both players for this same reason. Cause the level is so high that tiny advantages get majorly punished. You could pretty much predict who would win each round based on who’s resources were easier to protect. And I say those scripting changes made this tourney a realllllly good one. But then they threw another monkey wrench in the mix and made it so one person might lose two map pics in an off chance it went 7 rounds and the same person lost the match before the forced map pics. And that’s exactly what happened lol
Massive shoutouts to the organizers, really. Also, in order to avoid 3 vs 1 home maps, I'd say it's just better to remove the game 4 and game 7 maps, and go for loser home map every time after Arabia.
HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLY SH*****************T!!!!!! I was hyped for this match but DAMN... this was the best match I ever seen of AGE. Both incredible. And what a final game! Cant wait to see the finals
I don't want to understate Jordans gameplay and achievements, because he played really well in this tournament, shortly after coming back to AoE2. He even defeated a titan like Yo 4:1, which I didn't expect tbh. But still, this feels much more like a final. Hands down the best gameplay I've ever seen, and then Hera managed to defeat the undefeated winner of all previous Hidden Cups in game 7... Even tho I really wanted Viper to win, this gave me positive chills... Hera worked so incredibly hard to get there, and finally he did it. And after defeating the only real snek, it was kinda set that Hera would win the tournament, before the finals even started
@ItsDexGaming Totally agree with you. It should have been a 4:0, even tho Hera lost the Islands game, he should technically have won. And its true, Viper was practically unbeaten for a decade (Yo being his weird nemesis), and I think it can only enhance the overall level of gameplay, that he now has someone who is able to really compete with him and make it a necessity to get better skill wise
Imagine Viper fans being so butthurt they can't accept the rules of the tournament that all the players agreed to before playing in it. Cry more babies...
Spoiler alert!! Fun fact: John played 3 of his home maps, Ivaylo played 1. I know the set maps are there because you want all the maps to be played after the effort that was put in them but this is just not right. I don't want to sound like a buthurt fan and I'm happy for John, but with set maps like this always going to the losers home map is just not the way to go IMO :/
Seems a bit strange to me as well. I think after Arabia it should just have been home maps. Doing it like this just opens discussion about the loser getting snubbed which is just unnecessary because the winner 100% deserves his spot in the final.
@@johnnyfulton4755 I just know that both players can choose four home maps out of the pool and ban one of the other player's picks. Usually the player who lost the last game can choose one of his home maps for the next one but in the semifinals for some reason the fourth and the seventh map were set so in this case the player who won 4v3 had the opportunity to play on his preferred maps more often than the one who lost which is not how the map picks should work.
@@btarczy5067 Any sensible tournament organizer would have realised that the best way to play a best of 7 with 3 homemaps for each player should have been by alternating between the homemaps from the players and then have a set map for the 7th game if needed. Thats the system for basically any other esport based around different maps.
I think this was a bit of hubris on part of T90. They loved the maps they created, so they wanted them played. When the new maps weren't picked so often, they forced them. Don't get me wrong, every one of the new maps is 10x as more enjoyable than Arabia. But having forced maps at the cost of fairness just doesn't fit in the largest AoE2 tournament.
This was definitely the set of the series, insane level of play!!! Though I still believe the best individual game was Hera vs Tatoh on Cup :) Regarding the map issue, I understand they wanted to showcase the new maps, but I think there is a much easier way to do that next time. Simply make it a rule that each player must pick at least one of the new maps into his home map-pool. I feel that accomplishes variety with new map inclusion, while avoiding all this unnecessary controversy.
Great games, would have been better though if both players always get 2 homemaps when the set goes 7 games. What happened here makes the win feel undeserved. You prepare strats and draft civs for your favourite maps and then you don't even get to play them, that's just not right.
Haha, 7% Daut for John the Fearless, well memed! Skirms countering Mangonels, INSANE skill right there... Spoilers incoming... This series was so good! Some questionable forwards might have cost Ivaylo the victory but who am I to backseat? John was so damn good, he more than deserves the Cup, outplays left and right!
Damn those games were great! The two players qualities are out of these world, but the settings made a diference... Spoilers: Ivalo used one out of his three home maps while John used all three!!! Thats an advantage!!! And with the level being so close, that could have changed the result!
Tbf those rules were posted clearly ahead of time. They’re not ideal, but they were not ambiguous. I kind of think the main issue is set maps. I don’t think there should be set maps.
not an issue, everyone keeps saying 3 home maps to 1 but out of those ivaylo won 2 and john won 2. What about the previous one of admiral vs sundjata where it was 2 home maps of sundjata to 1 of admiral and admiral won all of them. The rules were completely clear and can go either way for either player, makes it all the more important to win the fixed maps that can get most practice on
@@anishnair1063 Viper should have brought up the question of whether or not all 3 home maps will be played rather than assuming it would be 2 max for a player. That being said, home map advantages definitely matter and just because Viper won 1 of Hera's home maps doesn't mean home map advantages doesn't matter. His win on Quarry was a total civ win for Britons on that map and there was nothing Hera could have went for that would have counter it, if he had to play a different map do you really think it wouldn't matter? In hindsight Viper should have had his draft focused on the set maps more than the home maps but had he got to play his home maps, Viper was definitely favored in this series. Hera played very well to deserve this win and had the toughest bracket but to say home map advantage didn't matter is disingenuous
@@lamegamer4607 so he should have read the rules and drafted better duhh who doesnt understand the rules for a 80k tournament?? And several other tournaments you always see people asking if they can lame or not, these pro players should really put minimum effort in and read
Having watched these matches when they aired, so much trolling happened about the identity of the players. I will say, rewatching these games in particular knowing what's coming things start to make a bit more sense. The final interview explains a lot.
@@ghaznavid Yes! That was real class. It was for the finale, for a lot of cash and prestige - and he called it and wished him all the best. What a great guy
Oh my goodness wow!! Spoiler below: I watched these games throughout the day, I was cheering for John & when it was 2-0 & then 3-2, I looked at the time remaining on the video & pretty much conceded. Having just finished the video all I can say is wow, bring on watching the final tomorrow!
Close, but no. Fascists called him Il Duce (The Leader). Part of his full title was Duce del Fascismo (Leader of Fascism). Duce was an Italian title derived from the Latin word Dux, which meant "Leader". Dux is also the root of the European title Duke. But yes like Hitler tainting the German word for Leader, Mussolini ruined Duce (not Dux) for everyone and it's now only used in reference to him.
@@Urrarg his name is DuxTheSavior, it's on the level "middle schoolers write on the schoolbus thing". And yea that's the ethimology of the word, but "dux" it literally is the title Mussolini gave to himself and in current language it is associated with him as much as "duce". He used it freely as you can see in his propaganda.
Me during game 6, how is ivaylo going to come back from this, there isn't enough time left for a game 7 Me realizing there is a game 7 with 14 mins left in the video -surprised pikachu face!
I don't know if you'll ever read this @T90Official , but I want to put it out there anyway: I'd greatly appretiate if you could put timestamps in the videos for the starts of the individual games, at least for the semis/finals, UA-cam lets you do that quite comfortably. It would help quite a lot since I can mostly watch one game at a time, and its always a hassle to go back to where I were - love the content, just would make it easier to navigate :)
@@CG-eh6oe Yes, very fair that one player got to play 3 homemaps while the other had 1. Even funnier that the player with 3 homemaps ended up winning in the end haha
I didn't like that maps 4 and 7 were set either, but I think what you are saying is unfair to the players. I mean no offense, but you make it sound like it's a pair of noobs who only know how to play their home maps and nothing else. This is Viper and Hera we are talking about. Considering they knew rules going in, I'm sure both of them had several strategies planned for all maps.
@@ar1sm70 That is true and I do respect Hera and in the end, he wasn't an undeserving winner. This doesn't change the fact, that the current system is NOT fair and Hidden Cup has some problems that should be addressed. I'd recommend reading Vipers statement on the whole thing
@@scorpia0314 I read it yesterday and although he doesn't like the map rules even he admits it was an oversight on his part to get caught off guard by this, precisely because he knew the rules in advance. I agree with you and in another comment my suggestion for next year is to simply force each player to pick at least one of the new maps in their home map-pool. That should offer the added variety while also eliminating the issue at hand.
I have to agree with the popular comments here. The home map fiasco is unfair and it is probably what decided the set. Viper and Here were so close that any tiny detail mattered. AoE2 is now like the sprinting races where every milisecond counts. And apparently Viper was thrown off by the home map fiasco in game 6. And in game 7 he was making really bad mistakes as a result. If Viper maintained his mental fortitude, he would have won.
Hey, maybe someone can elaborate. In the second game, I asked myself, why John the Fearless wasn`t closing gaps in his defense and maybe building stone walls or defense buildings as Byztantins. Especially with the opponents` unit composition. Perhaps it is too much to do at the same time, but it would fit Johns style of play. Or isn`t it as effective as I think it so be?
![Hidden Cup 3 | Ro16 Friar Tuck vs Saladin [Match 5]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/b-ooWfgMZcA/mqdefault.jpg)
Only in AoE2 have I heard
"He's sending a turkey to investigate"...
The romans almost worshipped gease because a goose was the only one who gave the alarm when Rome was attacked in an ancient battle, the guards and their dogs were sleeping, the romans were so crazy that they literally murdered a dog every single year for centuries to "punish" the dogs that had failed to alert them to the intruder, "the supplice of the cannine" in ancient rome, look it up
@@anonymous-rb2sr yeah, so that, all those dogs could tell their grandkids n their grandkid’s to never fail the Romans again
@@Spectraevil Hey, don't ask me WHY they were doing it
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supplicia_canum
for those who thought I was making it up ^^^^^^
Glad I'm not the only one who found that sentence funny, lol.
That one hussar at about two hours (video time) is getting so pumped to go back home and brag to his buddies about his grand slaughter, and he's going to ride over the hill into his home valley and be like "WTF happened here? I thought we were winning!"
LOL and on his ride home, he got shot down by a new castle that just appeared within minutes
Hahaha
Best series of Hidden Cup 4.
Hands down.
The skill on display is astonishing. So glad to have caught it live.
Skill-wise yes. I gotta say the Macro-Wars between Yo and Jordan were insanely fun to watch tho.
This was the true final. I watched it live, easily the best set of games I've ever watched.
Truly legendary! :D
I remember the empty shock in T90's voice at the end of game 7.
Thanks for the spoiler dickhead. If this was the true final that means John must have won the whole thing.
I concur, exceptional gameplay throughout 👌
@@jeroen92 not necessarily, both sets of semis were far more exciting than the finals. Also the comments of a video like this isn't a safe place to look if you don't want spoilers. Incidentally you can watch the recorded finals on T90's twitch page, and could have done so for a while now, so you don't have to wait for him to post it here. I watched 2 games in the finals and didn't bother with the rest, both semis were far more exciting. The second game of the finals was almost a low elo legends game 😆
Best set of the Tourney, hands down.
I was waiting for this one.
The skill level these guys brought to the table is just incredible.
It’s close. This one just beats out Le Loi vs John The Fearless. If that went 7 games it might rival this.
The differences in playstyle make this so unpredictable as well sometimes. Game 2 is probably my favorite as I really thought after the first defense that John would have it.
Skirms against mangonels, low numbers, win the engagement... What?
love your hair
Game 2 was the best game of the tournament... this whole set was insane, this was an Anakin vs Obi Wan fight.
I’ve watched it three times. If John was playing anyone else he wins that game 2. The pressure Ivaylo put in John’s Eco while dealing with relentless pressure on his own eco was legendary.
Got to see this live. I paused everything I was doing and watched, slackjawed, at the level of performance. Well played both players.
Absolutely LEGENDARY set of games. The sheer amount of skill on display here is unfathomable. Truly astonishing series!
Damn the Huns Vs Byzantines play is just HOOOO MY GOD
To me - the best set of the year. Game play out my mind! Worth it the whole 3 hours!
These are the games you'll come back years from now, knowing the players behind the names and be able to appreciate it so much more.
@@Preacher_. exactly
@@Preacher_. here i am doing exactly that
Everyone knows Ivaylo is Lord Daut. And Admiral is also Daut.
ty for the spoiler XD
You are obviously right
@@NalinX Daut is obviously right, Yo is clearly left
@@rbd6502 yeah Daut was right about that Yo left
Sundjata and John the Fearless are too also Daut. He's multiboxing 😎
inb4 massive discussion on set maps and home maps
It's pretty much a moot discussion. The worst offender is still first game arabia - ask any arena player. And that's a staple in most tournaments. In the end, the player with the better preparation and execution wins - especially on the new maps.
@@Link1506 All these maps are open, this tournament is not designed around arena players it is designed around maps with lots of action.
Also, no cares that there were set maps, people care that Ivaylo only got 1 home map and had to play against 3 of John's home maps.
If both players had only 2 picks and no matter the result of the 5th game the person who hadn't played 2 home maps yet got the map, then it would be fair because both players would always have 2 home maps and we could keep the interesting set maps as well.
@@Link1506 Arabia is fine. Its literally the most standard map and has been for almost 20 years, it makes sense to play at least 1 game there.
You mean all hybrid?
I thought the 2nd game was over at 54:45... insane skill from both players.
Some of the most incredible displays of skill and strategy in the highest level of Age of Empires is found in this series. 👌
🚧SPOILERS MAY EXIST BEYOND THIS POINT🚧
⚠️SCROLL DOWN AT YOUR OWN RISK⚠️
Daut Won, Barles at second
T90 won, Hera at second.
As a viper fan, this one hurt... Which is a shame because these were top quality games that I'd otherwise love to rewatch. Congratulations to Hera.
The hype is real. This was the real final match
I was so expecting an Ivaylo 4-2 win when I saw the timestamp at the start of game 6. When T90 predicted a game 7 with 15 minutes left on the video I said, "no way".
I was wrong. Amazing set.
Whoever won here would win the entire tournament. Easily the real final here.
The skill level between these two is insane. High quality entertainment, thanks T90!
John deserved the win, but its strange that he gets 3 home maps while Ivaylo only gets 1. That doesn't seem fair.
Actually, yes. Who knows what would be if a certain player had gotten 2 more home maps with prepared strategies.
Exactly
They all knew the rules and the map distribution. Maybe John prepared accordingly.
Well, it may seem unfair, but it's really mostly random chance based on the layout (games 1, 4, and 7 are on set maps). John just happened to manage wins on games 3 and 6 when Ivaylo couldn't change the next map anyhow.
Notice however that John only won 1/3 of his home maps any way. His most convincing victories were on Bypass and Mudflow.
@@LittleBigPeach Consider that Ivaylo won 100% of his home maps, meaning he did have something prepared for those maps. Had the order by which players have won their map been different, it is very possible that Ivaylo would have won the set (and most likely the tournament).
Btw, john won 2/3 of his home maps (not 1/3) and was very close to winning all of his home maps, which makes a big difference.
My point is that this format is highly subjected to chance and should be changed somehow, especially considering that this is the biggest AoE2 tournament of the every year.
17:16 Saving this for posterity, I just keep replaying that moment. So much happens at once it's insane.
Me: I have no idea how they're going to fit another game in with the amount of time left.
Also Me: Oh that's how.
GG great series! One of the best micro duels between players ever
How do you like more than once? This set was INSANE!
this. was. wild.
what an incredibly insane series. I'm so blown away. And the finisher... wow. Just wow.
my fav set of all time. A classic.
I was sure that it would end 4-2 when the 6th game started and there was roughly 40min of the video left.. what an insane semi final and comeback! Much love
that was definitely the real FINAL :)
I dunno. That islands match was hilariously fitting for an actual final. But yes, this was pretty crazy.
Great Games and great series, but the home map/set map situation needs to be overlooked for the next tourney. If you really want set maps, you could just make game6 2nd homemap of whoever only got to choose one at this point. 3vs1 homemaps is an advantage that shouldn't be overlooked. Obviously I'm not saying that it would have changed the outcome of the series, but it could have.
Spoilers ahead. Look at John the fearless, it really felt to me that he is unbeatable on Cup, he really got this map figured out through the tournament and maybe Ivaylo had the same going for him on a different map but could not utilise it. Nonetheless I think this series has a deserved winner, but for the future it would be fair to give the losing player his 2nd homemap in game6 instead of 3 homemaps for the eventual winner. Just my thoughts on this.
Yeah I felt the same for this situation, Hera getting 3 home maps while the snake only had one seems like something worth looking into.
not an issue, everyone keeps saying 3 home maps to 1 but out of those ivaylo won 2 and john won 2. What about the previous one of admiral vs sundjata where it was 2 home maps of sundjata to 1 of admiral and admiral won all of them. or even the grand final, john vs admiral, 2 home maps to 1 for admiral, but john won 2 of them anyway.
The rules were completely clear and can go either way for either player, makes it all the more important to win the fixed maps that can get most practice on
@@anishnair1063 When I watched it live the set maps already seemed odd to me during the first semi final.
It doesn't really matter who won these homemaps. As a player in a tournament you choose these homemaps because you feel more comfortable playing on it or you may have a strategy prepared. None of this implies that you will definetly win on that map. But it is to your disadvantage if your opponent can choose 3 times and you only once.
It is not the biggest deal, Viper said he misread the rules (that's on him) and got frustrated (understandable). I think it may have gotten into his head, maybe should have had a quick break to refocus.
Yeah. Viper played worse in games 6 and 7. Almost as if he expected his home map to come up in game 6 and it threw him off. Hera played amazingly and won deservedly under these conditions, but if the home maps were fair maybe Viper would have played better in the last two matchups and he would have won deservedly.
this set left me feeling exhausted, I can only imagine how the players felt
54:30 Insane few minutes of the game. :) A bit later you can also see 5 hero hussars, destroying that treb. If not for them, the castle from Icaylo would definitely fall. Didn't see that the first time I watched this game live. Actually all the game was insane, it was beautiful. )
1:24:34 that dude in the chat predicted 4-3 for john lol
"John as he BOLDLY, FEARLESSLY kills villagers"
The best set of games I’ve ever watched! Games like this are great for the community, especially if you’re right on who the players are.
3:00:19 the fact that dux didnt call nicov a pro but instead called him a "player" was hilarious
he was a player in the tournament
I rarely comment on UA-cam videos. But I had to comment on this magnificent performance by both players.
This is the best 7-set series in the history of AoE2. Every game a classic. Each game is an epic, culminating in a 7-part movie series a la LOTR/Star Wars.
.
That John the Fearless came back from that crushing defeat in game 2 where he seemed to have given up his every ounce of strength;
That he won the deciding game with Indians, a traditionally lower quality Civ, against the greatest player of the game - that shows what level John reached in this tournament.
.
Great commentary as always folks.
Might be the best series I’ve ever seen. Wow. I’m dead. 💀
Dude Vipers performance in that first game on Arabia, total domination. Grace and precision. With top tier micro, didn’t lose a single magonel, and that’s why he is the goat.
It does seem like a unfair system where the winner of the set has chosen 3 home maps and the loser has chosen 1 home map, it kinda messes with the integrity of the competition because it undoubtedly gave a player an undue advantage.
@@JonathanMeyer84 but that is what happened. one player in this set got to pick three home maps and the other got only one.
It feels like there‘s always some room for discussion about who did or did not have an unfair advantage. I‘d rather wait for what the players themselves have to say and for now leave it at stating that I have no clue why there were set maps after Arabia.
@@btarczy5067 both players have made statements according to reddit that boil down to them not liking how that worked out and that it was unfair on both of them. The loser did not get a fair amount of home maps and the winner gets their victory questioned because of that rather than just being accepted although no one has blamed anyone for it as no one foresaw that the current rules could work out in that way.
@@lonerangerv1224 Thanks! Yeah, I think the fact this is a topic at all now is just frustrating because Hera is still a deserving winner despite the circumstances.
Not that I can‘t see why it would be brought up! I‘m just annoyed about the possibly lingering implications that this was a tarnished victory when he played like an absolute beast.
@@btarczy5067 It is all just so messy for everyone involved. Not helped that some people have wanted to accuse anyone bring this issue up as just a fanboy wanting to find an excuse for why the person lost. Hopefully this is just a growing pain sort of thing and all sorted out for next time
The fact there were forced maps on round 4 and 7 made this bracket in the tourney pretty lame. If you happened to lose round 3 and round 6 then you would get screwed out of two map picks, a common courtesy after losing a round. And that’s exactly what happened to Ivaylo. Gave an unfair advantage to John by dumb luck.
I disagree my friend, it was notified in advance and u are suposed to prepare for these maps as well as for your home picks. I agree it was unfortunate for The Snake but it was no dumb luck. It was the agreed terms of HC4. And I am in favour of having one or two new maps being 'forced' in Bo7.
@@pianodentist6750 I don’t have a problem with having forced maps either. Just the way it was implemented. If you’re going to have forced maps then maybe they should all be stacked at the beginning, like Arabia has always been. So both players get to have a home map advantage every time they’re on the back foot after that. Or have a set comprised entirely of pre planned maps. Orrr have a pool of forced maps, and instead of Arabia being the first decider map for every match, it may be any of the forced maps from the pool as the first map of a set, and Arabia can be a home map pic for one of the players if they want it. I think I like this last idea the most if mixing in new maps is a goal of the tourney.
Cause if you scatter them in the middle like this. Then you can be in a situation where one person loses and then gets a home map advantage, wins because that advantage, and then the loser who now should also be able to get to pick a home map doesn’t get that same advantage to try and make a comeback.
@@pianodentist6750 we’ve advanced to tourney maps with safe resources for both players for this same reason. Cause the level is so high that tiny advantages get majorly punished. You could pretty much predict who would win each round based on who’s resources were easier to protect. And I say those scripting changes made this tourney a realllllly good one.
But then they threw another monkey wrench in the mix and made it so one person might lose two map pics in an off chance it went 7 rounds and the same person lost the match before the forced map pics. And that’s exactly what happened lol
It’s not a problem that the players couldn’t pick a couple of the maps. It’s a problem that one player was able to, and the other wasn’t.
Amazing series, this was a joy to watch
I cried for what might be a viper loss. I love Hera too. I guess we will see in the final
Take a shot every time T90 pronounces "Ivaylo" wrong.
That first game was insane.
4:30 T-90 correctly predicts both sides as well as the finals winner.
The bypass map creates some amazing games. I hope it and the other new maps become staples in future hidden cups.
This was a crazy match man!
Watched this live, and watching it again right now, haha.
Great match!
Wow! What a beautiful series! Thank you
Thanks for casting!
One of the best series of all time, even tho I hate to see vipi lose :(
Massive shoutouts to the organizers, really. Also, in order to avoid 3 vs 1 home maps, I'd say it's just better to remove the game 4 and game 7 maps, and go for loser home map every time after Arabia.
HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLY SH*****************T!!!!!!
I was hyped for this match but DAMN... this was the best match I ever seen of AGE. Both incredible. And what a final game! Cant wait to see the finals
First Hidden Cup I'm watching and it has been amazing so far. Thanks for all the uploads T90 and great job!
I don't want to understate Jordans gameplay and achievements, because he played really well in this tournament, shortly after coming back to AoE2. He even defeated a titan like Yo 4:1, which I didn't expect tbh.
But still, this feels much more like a final. Hands down the best gameplay I've ever seen, and then Hera managed to defeat the undefeated winner of all previous Hidden Cups in game 7... Even tho I really wanted Viper to win, this gave me positive chills... Hera worked so incredibly hard to get there, and finally he did it. And after defeating the only real snek, it was kinda set that Hera would win the tournament, before the finals even started
@ItsDexGaming Totally agree with you. It should have been a 4:0, even tho Hera lost the Islands game, he should technically have won.
And its true, Viper was practically unbeaten for a decade (Yo being his weird nemesis), and I think it can only enhance the overall level of gameplay, that he now has someone who is able to really compete with him and make it a necessity to get better skill wise
A truly stupendous match! So much respect to Admiral, but this was the deciding round right here.
Imagine a 90 000 dollar tournament where the winning player gets to play 3 homemaps and the losing player only 1.
This comment is underrated, t90 should adapt it next year, they stole the win :D
yeah, weird decision from the organization
Injustice
I think he did it purposely and set maps were favored by hera
Imagine Viper fans being so butthurt they can't accept the rules of the tournament that all the players agreed to before playing in it. Cry more babies...
Spoiler alert!!
Fun fact: John played 3 of his home maps, Ivaylo played 1. I know the set maps are there because you want all the maps to be played after the effort that was put in them but this is just not right. I don't want to sound like a buthurt fan and I'm happy for John, but with set maps like this always going to the losers home map is just not the way to go IMO :/
It doesn't make any sense that the winner of 4:3 played 3 home maps and loser only 1.
Seems a bit strange to me as well. I think after Arabia it should just have been home maps. Doing it like this just opens discussion about the loser getting snubbed which is just unnecessary because the winner 100% deserves his spot in the final.
@@johnnyfulton4755 I just know that both players can choose four home maps out of the pool and ban one of the other player's picks. Usually the player who lost the last game can choose one of his home maps for the next one but in the semifinals for some reason the fourth and the seventh map were set so in this case the player who won 4v3 had the opportunity to play on his preferred maps more often than the one who lost which is not how the map picks should work.
@@btarczy5067 Any sensible tournament organizer would have realised that the best way to play a best of 7 with 3 homemaps for each player should have been by alternating between the homemaps from the players and then have a set map for the 7th game if needed. Thats the system for basically any other esport based around different maps.
I think this was a bit of hubris on part of T90. They loved the maps they created, so they wanted them played. When the new maps weren't picked so often, they forced them. Don't get me wrong, every one of the new maps is 10x as more enjoyable than Arabia. But having forced maps at the cost of fairness just doesn't fit in the largest AoE2 tournament.
1:53:50 look how greedy that monk is. He grabs that relic from 2 tiles away XD
I believe this was the best match up among the series!
This was definitely the set of the series, insane level of play!!!
Though I still believe the best individual game was Hera vs Tatoh on Cup :)
Regarding the map issue, I understand they wanted to showcase the new maps, but I think there is a much easier way to do that next time. Simply make it a rule that each player must pick at least one of the new maps into his home map-pool. I feel that accomplishes variety with new map inclusion, while avoiding all this unnecessary controversy.
The demos!
Great games, would have been better though if both players always get 2 homemaps when the set goes 7 games. What happened here makes the win feel undeserved. You prepare strats and draft civs for your favourite maps and then you don't even get to play them, that's just not right.
This set was crazy!!!
Holy shit that Huns byzantines match had me holding my breath wowowo
I went to get tea and missed the last live game 😂
After the reveal and because how insane this set was it all makes sense now :D
PD: Pulling the 4-3 with the map thingy discussion makes it more epic
Haha, 7% Daut for John the Fearless, well memed! Skirms countering Mangonels, INSANE skill right there...
Spoilers incoming...
This series was so good! Some questionable forwards might have cost Ivaylo the victory but who am I to backseat? John was so damn good, he more than deserves the Cup, outplays left and right!
A-ma-zing. What a match-up!
At 56:28 Ivaylo had 5 relics and John 1?
How many relics are in this map?
⚠️ *** SECOND WALL OF PROTECTION FROM SPOILERS *** ⚠️
⚠️⚠️ PROCEED AT YOUR OWN RISK ⚠️⚠️
Damn those games were great! The two players qualities are out of these world, but the settings made a diference...
Spoilers:
Ivalo used one out of his three home maps while John used all three!!! Thats an advantage!!! And with the level being so close, that could have changed the result!
The homemap issue should be fixed for hc5. Ivaylo only got 1 home map instead of 3 while John got all 3.
Tbf those rules were posted clearly ahead of time. They’re not ideal, but they were not ambiguous. I kind of think the main issue is set maps. I don’t think there should be set maps.
not an issue, everyone keeps saying 3 home maps to 1 but out of those ivaylo won 2 and john won 2. What about the previous one of admiral vs sundjata where it was 2 home maps of sundjata to 1 of admiral and admiral won all of them. The rules were completely clear and can go either way for either player, makes it all the more important to win the fixed maps that can get most practice on
or even the grand final, john vs admiral, 2 home maps to 1 for admiral, but john won 2 of them anyway
@@anishnair1063 Viper should have brought up the question of whether or not all 3 home maps will be played rather than assuming it would be 2 max for a player. That being said, home map advantages definitely matter and just because Viper won 1 of Hera's home maps doesn't mean home map advantages doesn't matter. His win on Quarry was a total civ win for Britons on that map and there was nothing Hera could have went for that would have counter it, if he had to play a different map do you really think it wouldn't matter? In hindsight Viper should have had his draft focused on the set maps more than the home maps but had he got to play his home maps, Viper was definitely favored in this series. Hera played very well to deserve this win and had the toughest bracket but to say home map advantage didn't matter is disingenuous
@@lamegamer4607 so he should have read the rules and drafted better duhh who doesnt understand the rules for a 80k tournament?? And several other tournaments you always see people asking if they can lame or not, these pro players should really put minimum effort in and read
Having watched these matches when they aired, so much trolling happened about the identity of the players.
I will say, rewatching these games in particular knowing what's coming things start to make a bit more sense. The final interview explains a lot.
Sorry [Spoiler Alert]
I still cry everytime... Ivaylo... eliminated? Noooo!
my heart was broken😔
Agreed, but what an amazing set of games. And credit to the snake for calling the last game early when he knew he had lost.
@@ghaznavid Yes! That was real class. It was for the finale, for a lot of cash and prestige - and he called it and wished him all the best. What a great guy
Oh my goodness wow!! Spoiler below:
I watched these games throughout the day, I was cheering for John & when it was 2-0 & then 3-2, I looked at the time remaining on the video & pretty much conceded. Having just finished the video all I can say is wow, bring on watching the final tomorrow!
I like the garrisoned unit granting extra vision bonus.
This is epyc. Huns vs Byzantines was the best game i ve ever watched
The finals were so disappointing compared to this match. This was so well played all around!
Viper literally got the coolest character image and name. Ivaylo’s character image looks intense x_x
Oh my god that last game was awesome.
incredible. absolutely incredible.
Overall excellent although I would have liked to see more of the players fog of war, maybe im the only one
Dux has done a lot and I think it's more than fair that he quoted himself at least once.
It was really nice of you to honor him with a duck map :)
Do you know guys know that Dux is how the italian dictator Benito Mussolini was known in Italy? It's the same as fuhrer for Hitler
Close, but no. Fascists called him Il Duce (The Leader). Part of his full title was Duce del Fascismo (Leader of Fascism). Duce was an Italian title derived from the Latin word Dux, which meant "Leader". Dux is also the root of the European title Duke.
But yes like Hitler tainting the German word for Leader, Mussolini ruined Duce (not Dux) for everyone and it's now only used in reference to him.
@@Urrarg his name is DuxTheSavior, it's on the level "middle schoolers write on the schoolbus thing". And yea that's the ethimology of the word, but "dux" it literally is the title Mussolini gave to himself and in current language it is associated with him as much as "duce". He used it freely as you can see in his propaganda.
John the Fearless only lost that first game because T90 didn't say, "John the Fearless really has something to fear right now."
been waiting for this upload
Me during game 6, how is ivaylo going to come back from this, there isn't enough time left for a game 7
Me realizing there is a game 7 with 14 mins left in the video -surprised pikachu face!
That was epic.
I can really See Bypass being a great 2v2 map
What's the odds that the Viper went out first round?
I don't know if you'll ever read this @T90Official , but I want to put it out there anyway: I'd greatly appretiate if you could put timestamps in the videos for the starts of the individual games, at least for the semis/finals, UA-cam lets you do that quite comfortably. It would help quite a lot since I can mostly watch one game at a time, and its always a hassle to go back to where I were - love the content, just would make it easier to navigate :)
1:10:50
Twice the amount of food !!
Here I am, enjoying getting into AoE2 for the first time, and the shit talk on Kansas starts......
Map system decided this series
How can a fair system that affects both players the same way decide any series?
@@CG-eh6oe Yes, very fair that one player got to play 3 homemaps while the other had 1. Even funnier that the player with 3 homemaps ended up winning in the end haha
I didn't like that maps 4 and 7 were set either, but I think what you are saying is unfair to the players.
I mean no offense, but you make it sound like it's a pair of noobs who only know how to play their home maps and nothing else. This is Viper and Hera we are talking about. Considering they knew rules going in, I'm sure both of them had several strategies planned for all maps.
@@ar1sm70 That is true and I do respect Hera and in the end, he wasn't an undeserving winner. This doesn't change the fact, that the current system is NOT fair and Hidden Cup has some problems that should be addressed. I'd recommend reading Vipers statement on the whole thing
@@scorpia0314 I read it yesterday and although he doesn't like the map rules even he admits it was an oversight on his part to get caught off guard by this, precisely because he knew the rules in advance.
I agree with you and in another comment my suggestion for next year is to simply force each player to pick at least one of the new maps in their home map-pool. That should offer the added variety while also eliminating the issue at hand.
I have to agree with the popular comments here. The home map fiasco is unfair and it is probably what decided the set. Viper and Here were so close that any tiny detail mattered. AoE2 is now like the sprinting races where every milisecond counts. And apparently Viper was thrown off by the home map fiasco in game 6. And in game 7 he was making really bad mistakes as a result. If Viper maintained his mental fortitude, he would have won.
OMG, what the hell was this game! EPIC!!! Oh my!
"He sent a Turkey to investigate" - Dave, 2021
Watching a rerun! Can't wait for the next HC :)
Is there any information about that out already?
huns v byzantines was an exceptional game
Hey, maybe someone can elaborate. In the second game, I asked myself, why John the Fearless wasn`t closing gaps in his defense and maybe building stone walls or defense buildings as Byztantins. Especially with the opponents` unit composition. Perhaps it is too much to do at the same time, but it would fit Johns style of play. Or isn`t it as effective as I think it so be?
On the second game blue had those 2 cab archers he stole from red during almost all the duration of the game lol.
I can’t believe Dave still says Man at Arm