How the Naruto fandom RUINED a genius director's career.
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- Опубліковано 1 лип 2024
- Abbreviations that I use regularly:
KA: Key Animation
AD: Animation Direction/Director
CAD: Chief Animation Director
ED: Episode Director
SB: Story Board
LO: Lay Out
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00:00 - "Movie quality animation" has lost all meaning
01:36 - The unorthodox production of Naruto
02:22- Naruto's key staff
04:21 - Shippuden's production and new staff
05:48 - Pain arc vs movie
07:09 - #166 staff
07:29 - #167 staff (Shingo Yama focus)
10:45 - Negative reception of 167
12:15 - Aftermath - Фільми й анімація
I think two things can be true at once. Yes, Pains fight had amazing animation but at the same time, it's okay if people dislike it or think it looks bad. Direction matters and understanding your audience also matters. The animation was absolutely crazy anime needs more scenes like that, but personally, I think just saying "People who don't like this don't know anything about animation" is kinda narrow-minded. Yes, movement is the main component of animation however it is not the only one as we all know, I think it's normal that people find the episode odd looking especially when you take into account the seriousness of the situation vs the animation style that was used.
A great example is Luffy Gear 5 recently. (yes I know people are prob tired of this comparison) In this case, people were way more open to the loose and creative approach that was taken. This is mainly cause the style fits the context really well.
To sum up my thoughts, yes the Pain vs Naruto fight had some of the best most fluid animation in the series! But I don't think people who dislike it are idiots or know nothing about animation just cause of that. However, claiming that it is "bad animation" would prob be a bad take.
Your last sentence is pretty much what the point is. Similar case with Chainsaw man as well. There's nothing wrong with disliking Ryu Nakayama's vision. It's experimental and divisive. But now what if someone calls him a bad director and says that his storyboards are trash? Now that would be objectively wrong, as his storyboards are highly complex and creative.
@@-MankoMan Yeah I'd agree that'd be a pretty bad take, regardless I hope he gets more chances and in a series where he can be free of using his full creativity without being constrained to the visual style expectations that are tied to a series.
@@TheArtKingdomYThe HAS the Creative freedom to Choose and do CSM in this style buddy
That's true but i think that this animation style was almost perfect for what the episode was meant to be. It shows perfectly how powerful is Six Tails Naruto, Pain constantly deforms because of this. Also, this gives you a great idea of the speed in this fight.
I think this case is quite similar to the Noein series; in that case, there was some kind of "odd" style (great webgen animators were in there) but it was perfect because the characters are made of this dark, deformed matter.
@@defe_ I always thought the reason Pain distorts to that extent is cause he literally is a dead body. The power and rage of six tails was also perfectly conveyed by the chaotic animation.
i couldnt even imagine how crazy naruto wouldve looked in its entirety if it was seasonal,it basically had the actual one piece wano dream team but with a bad schedule
It would also still be airing if it was seasonal LOL.
@@-MankoMan probably yes considering 300 eps of it are canon so there would be more than 10 seasons💀💀💀
@@antooh1167 actually 270 eps excluding light novel content
but yes still would be airing to this day if this would be 2 cour yearly realease
oh no this would end in the same year as weekly if this would be one year realease
my man become a millionaire between a video and another, he even have 2 beds in the same room, i was even expecting a tiger to show up on the video
Couldn't capture it in this video but to my right there's a giant fish tank with sharks in it.
What are you talking about?
@@uchenna8885the background lol
@@-MankoMandamn that's crazy
His family owns a hotel chain probably a Patel
And now you have people calling Shinya Ohira's animation "AI"
Things haven't really changed
Seriously? Wtf!
the amount of ppl ive seen agree with that comparison (prob for the sake of hating) makes my brain numb
Ig that's just how good it is
People haven't heard about rotoscoping before or referenced shoots which isn't uncommon in the animation industry. That's like saying the spider tank in ghost in the shell 1995 is AI when its infact a referenced tarantula displayed in a jar that the animators emulated its movement patterns.
It's not ai but it still looks horrible
I understand where people come from when they say the naruto vs pain fight looks bad because I agree to a degree. Is the animation itself extremely fluid and great looking? Yes. But at the same time you have pain running like a cartoon character, getting his head and body stuck in the floor like a cartoon character, some extremely goofy and off model looking art, and in my opinion a fight scene, choreography wise, that didn't have a great direction, there is some random and unintentionally funny moments in there that just throw off the tone of the fight. For example pain lying on the floor awkwardly with his shield up blocking attacks, saying like "is that all you got" only to them immediately be blasted away in slow mo. Or when pain says his badass line followed up with a punch to the ground, which results in a ton of water spouting up? Why water, did he know that would happen? So random.
The naruto vs sasuke fight at the end of the original show by the same animator had none of these goofy art issues, bad choreography issues and is an amazing fight from start to finish, so I dont know why these issues came up in the naruto vs pain fight. Perhaps he was given to much creative freedom and no one to reel in his ideas.
I also dislike the statement that if someone isnt an animator or understands animation there critiques are wrong and not worth listening too. At the end of the day you are animating a show for an audience, not an audience of animators but just people who want to watch a show, and if they think it looks bad then you are doing something wrong and there is a reason they are saying it looks bad. In this case it was off model artwork, goofy(not bad) animation and just really odd choreography and direction choices.
I agree with you completely
It's a really bad attitude to have being like "you don't animate so you don't understand art"
But even then I went back to watch the fight to see if I was misremembering something
But gods no, I'll admit some things were better looking than I remember but the random perfectly square rocks falling as "debris"
How pain takes out a rock and it falls on Naruto with no impact whatsoever
Those moments you mentioned
The random jump cuts from a big attack to a random character saying something with very soft background music
I'm not even going to say the animation is bad, this episode sucked because the fights choreography is terrible, it looks like they tried to animate a turn based RPG with each. Character throwing random attacks with their cinematic effects and the other one waiting for their turn even saying those cheesy quips like "that all you got?"
And the direction which, like you said, goes from Looney toons to final fight to sad frame in minutes.
The only way the storyboard would be fine with this animation, if it was a Tom& jerry episode, when watching this episode years ago ,i already seen the manga and the fight was amazing, i expected a lot from the fight , but direction was all over the place, and the tone of the fight was weird too
I'm glad this comment exists, and this whole section isn't dedicated to animation snobbery and people regurgitating the opinion in the video they just watched.
I was hype as fuck for the pain fight as a teenager and I was so disappointed watching this looney tunes, rubbery skin, just overall ridiculous fight which is the climax of a really serious and emotional arc. The tone of the fight comes across as comical which is the polar opposite of what it's supposed to be, so of course fans of the show don't like it, this is one of the biggest fights in the entire 500+ episode show and it's tone deaf.
Note that I'm not calling the animation bad, in a goofy anime I quite possibly would have gotten a laugh out of and enjoyed the goofy fight, but as it stands? It was a big disappointment for me and my friend who were super excited to see this fight animated well.
@@mornemauvais5873 Well, this fight doesn't exist in the manga so....they did something. lol
Thank you! Finally some one with some common sense. It doesn’t matter how well animated it is if it looks goofy people are going to clown on it regardless. You don’t need to be a chef in order to criticize food if it looks bad.
Pain using Chibaku Tensei in the anime is literally one of the best pieces of character animation i've ever seen
it's just the 4 tails Naruto looney toons storyboarding part that is absolutely stupid to me.....the rest are all top notch
wtf
just go watch killer bee vs sasuke
@unclephillymya are y'all just blind to the words ONE and OF?!
@@shadowslime3640 anime fans are usually sped so dont be suprised
@@allbthatmom2153 uh wdym sped?
It has more to do the with the art consistency rather than the fluidity people took issue with the pain fight. I can understand they were trying to experiment on stuff and took risk, but that doesn't always make it a "success". There is a way of doing stretch and squash animation without going overboard, unless its to serve a purpose or where it makes more sense like with luffy gear 5 for comedic effect. If people want to see godlike animation they should watch the Magnetic Rose episode from the movie Memories. Such high animation fidelity you will never get anymore without using animation cgi unfortunately.
I've seen people on Kouda Twitter tweets insulting him because expectations weren't met for Boruto 291 although you know the production went down hill in terms of internal communication and the schedule is towards the end of 2021 and it continued in 2022 and up to 2023. Kouda, as series director, has carried the whole code arc with the episode directors and along with the new talents that have emerged in Boruto.
When I think of the Naruto vs Pain fight and it's quality, it reminds me of a chapter in "Animators Survival Kit" (basically the bible for western animators). It's where the author is talking about overlap and follow-through, towards the end of the chpt he talks about an example in a job he had where he was given a hand to animate going into a relaxed position down the page. He tries to make it kind of fancy and adds a lot of overlap/drag to the fingers and all that, but his director, Ken Harris (one of the best old animators) blows up at him and basically yells "Dammit man, I just want the hand to move to a relaxed position downwards! I don't want any of this fancy stuff!" after which the author admits Ken has "awfully good taste". The lesson of this being that over-animating stuff can get out of hand very quickly, and sometimes it's best to consider the context of what you are animating, sometimes less is more and taste is important.
In a vacuum without context the Pain fight looks incredible with some great fluidity and creative animation, but in context it doesn't feel like a Naruto fight at all. Pain getting wackamoled into the ground by a giant rock feels strange to watch and the weird facial distortions go way beyond anything else Naruto animation has done. The Kakashi vs Obito fight and the final Naruto vs Sasuke fight feel like they belong in the universe way more, and the directors just feel like they have better taste
This was a great video though! these are just my two cents.
I cringe when people say the pain fight was bad animation. It was so fluid and unique. People just don’t like change.
It's fluid but lacks art consistency, which is why it's a problem.
@@roycelewis7975 consistency is not required to have beautiful animation. The last few episodes of One Piece are doing the same thing just more tastefully and they have a bigger budget
@@roycelewis7975 So true.
it's all about preference. now matter how good something is, someone will still not like it just because it's not made for them
@@VainFriggus Pain fight had good animation but it didn't fit the tone of the fight at all. Gear 5 worked because it was supposed to be super silly loony toons action.
tl;dr "People illiterate, muh taste is refined"
Animation is not Subjective, if that's not Clear enough
Funny enough his refined taste is a boot. No self respecting animator would see. the scene and go. "They just had a massive death... The battle is intense... Lets use rubber hose style animation in our hits and impacts instead of our normal style. Oh and lets just go off model and use smears for Key emotional moments that we will hang on."
I absolutely love the fact that you are covering this topic!
Keep up the good work.
This man does not miss
Great video 🔥🔥bleach anime disrespect at the end tho💀
@@animetv947 He didn't disrespect. It's just facts. Wakabayashi is too good and that episode was just slight hints of his quality but that was definitely Wakabayashi under limitations.
I love how insane the animation is and the scale and destruction of the fight is crazy and personally my favorite naruto fight including like all the sage mode stuff and him defeating pain and meeting minato
Mine was to literally brust out laughing loudly.
What part of pain jelly face when he is hitting the ground or his loony toones legs when running or jumping like a fish in water is supposed to be epic or tragic?
The whole fight is comedic that is obvious when we see pain being hammered in the ground like a nail
My favourite ep of all naruto Franchise would be the ep82 from shippuden, Storyboarded and directed By Tsuru Toshiyuki. Just overall pure Cinema episode man.
Tsuru somehow made a scene where a character is just moving pieces on a board so intense that it had me glued to the screen the whole time. He also made the episodes that got me hooked to early naruto as well, handling Zabuza and Haku's final moments. Just a genius at crafting both emotional and action scenes alike.
@@-MankoMan A master at its craft fr. Hope man gets to cook with one of the High priority episode's of this Tybw cour .
Doraemon animation break down is needed
the anime fandom is such a curse. History repeats itself always here. From this naruto episode which was 10 years ago to today's one piece episode 1072 where people are calling Ohira's animation Ai. I'm so done with the community
Who tf called my man Ohta's work AI? Tell me their address. I'm loading my bazooka. They don't deserve anything.
When in fact the animation is on point on both episodes
And they're shitting on the CSM anime adaptation... (Not saying there's anything wrong with disliking the cinematic feel of it, just don't call it a shit adaptation, when it's better than most anime could dream of being)
I dispise ohira's animation in pain fight, it does not fit well at all and is very over used. In some part of the gear 5 fight it was acceptable because gear 5 pretty much is supposed to be a joke but I wouldev still preferred it to look more like 1015 animation from megumi ishitani or atleast like the zoro vs king animation
@@xandex69 Ohira did not animate anyone fighting, it was a triumphant moment. The goofy fighting was by Vincent, Weilin, Ce-Tu, YenBM.
I feel like episode 167 is now described by most people as "awful taste but great execution". It is just wrong to say the fight is badly animated, but you'd also sound snobbish saying the fandom knows nothing about art. I still remember bursting out laughing when Pain got hammered like a nail into the ground. While I genuinely respect the work that was put into the fight, a laugh from the audience is probably not what an animator should aim for considering the context of the scene.
Fully agree. I couldn't help laughing either 💀
He is right about fanbase knowing nothing about art. He isn't talking about the actions, about what happened during the episode, but only about the art part. The animation, the style, colour,... and he is right. Yeah, the final result, the events happening weren't what you'd expect from this fight. But the way it was drawn and animated is absolutely not bad, and people claiming the opposite are just dumbasses not knowing how animation works.
The part that is at fault isn't the animator, but the storyboarder.
@@Itsukazutrap yes, it had tons of parts where the characters were off, In the middle of transitioning animation its to be expected but in stand stills etc. FUCK no bad bad bad, it wasn't notorious for being hilariously ehh to bad for no reason, knock it tf off. Art is made to be seen, if people can't judge it if they can't make it then why tf they make it? Last i heard an animation like this series is meant to be seen by everyone u clown
Not just the Naruto fanbase, but the majority of anime community have literally zero knowledge about animation or visual culture in general. You can call it snobbish mentality but it's a fact.
@@SedokTomi its not hard to look at certain animation and clal it ugly asf or stiff, please get over yourself
"A group of people who would been totally fine with just having colored manga panels but what they unfortunately got is back to back episodes of the highest quiality of animation" This happened recently with JJK S2 EP 4 beacuse they didnt animate the exact panels so people called it bad LOL
As a manga reader I think the anime failed to capture the "otherworldly-ness" of Gojo's "honoured one" speech. However people calling the animation "bad" is nonsense.
@@user-er1ue6ui8dGenuinely asking, how?? The angelic music, the bright gold light coming down towards him, which starts literally after Toji comes close to him, the flashing images with excellent art direction and compositing....
@@carloscauan7967 It's as you say. They do a brilliant job act making him feel angelic, however the point of the scene is that Gojo has essentially reached enlightenment and is on a completely different level as a sorcerer. When reading the manga, Gojo at this moment is given an entire page to himself so the reader is almost forced to take a pause. This is even done with the speech. Combining this with the change in artstyle of the clouds and yes, even his orientation, it all comes together to create the feeling of Gojo being in his own world.
In the anime we see Gojo floating as the camera pans around him above the city. Beautiful scene, but this causes him to feel more grounded. It then fades and pans upwards to Gojo where he delivers the line. However we don't spend any time on this scene and instead immediately move onto Toji. So we don't get any time to take in the scene.
It's interesting because they do manage to create that feeling with the hollow purple scene by freezing time. So it feels like they misunderstood which scene was the important one.
IT HAPPENED AGAIN WITH SUKUNA IN THE SHIBUYA PV!!! THAT SHIT IS PROB GOING TO BE A MOVIE BUT SINCE THE LINE WORK IS LESS PEOPLE ARE SAYING IT LOOKS FANMADE. I CANT!!!
@@CarlosRamirez-xb5iq Its just because of a certain fan made version, that's very well made tbf, that animates the entire scene Vs the snapshot we're getting in the trailer.
I remember the bad reception for 167 pissing me off. I argued online about it but eventually thought "What kind of a loser am I for getting into debates about this?".
... I had no idea those idiots cost him his job.
Something is not good just because it's hard to make or because the upper echelon of the field respects it. At the end of the day the most objective look on art in whatever form it is, is the opinion of the general public/majority, and this happens because art is mostly subjective to the eyes of the beholder.
I mean the animation was fluid but it looked so goofy. The whole arc built up to that moment and it just felt silly. We just thought Hinata died and Pain was running with spinny legs like Sonic the hedgehog. It felt tasteless and I think it deserves the reaction it got. Quality doesn't just mean technical skill.
Thanks for the incredible video as always! :)
Really waiting for across the spiderverse, upper moon meeting and production heavenly delusion videos 😍😍
Feel like it would need a 5 hour breakdown to truly be able to analyze Spiderverse
Funny how back then even as a kid, I never really considered Wakabayashi's Directorial (167) bad even though I didnt know shit about animations at all. I actually found it really cool how the movements just jumps back and forth from stretchy to really aggresive style. It made me question how do they do that quick and lightning fast animations and wanted to try them myself.
fucking same lol, i always felt it was weird that I LOVED that episode while everyone seemed to hate it
Guess I just always loved good animation
Remember when Jaime Oliver showed kids how McDonalds chicken nuggets were made and how unhealthy they were? Remember when he showed them how to make chicken nuggets out of fresh seasoned chicken breasts? Remember when his soul left his body as the kids stared into his forehead and said they preferred McDonalds chicken nuggets over his fancy restaurant grade nuggets? I feel like this is the same thing. You said it yourself, "they would have been happy with colored manga panels" instead they got the most creatively animated five minutes in anime history. Of course it won't be received well by the viewers. Powerpoint animation no jutsu would have a better reception. The animator Ship of Theseus'd the animation so hard it no longer fit what was expected and unfortunately it didn't work out well.
i always had a thing for special episodes in naruto where the quality goes up. now you made me appreciate that fight scene more.
What I need anime fans to realize is that animation and art style are NOT THE SAME THING. The two are conflated, ALL. THE. TIME. I remember when episode 167 first came out and many made fun of the art direction for going off model in some notable scenes, although for me it was only a problem when Pain got road runner legs lol. Either way I think fans have become extremely short sighted and spoiled, the scenes in the manga that 167 covers is basically 5 panels in the manga. That’s it. It’s extremely bare bones and anti climactic.
Very well made video and its cool you’re covering this kind of topic.
I think the problem is that anime fans don’t really focus their criticism and anger in the right place because they don’t have enough knowledge. Things that they should be mad about such as pacing/scheduling and airing that put these animators in such a confined box and limit the amount of quality you can output when adapting these works is the real crime. I believe if people started focusing their anger and criticisms towards those things it would actually be alot more productive.
And not just blaming a faceless studio name. Like actually knowing whose in charge of these decisions personally can help to inform the community on why these conditions for such an exchange of high highs and extremely low lows. More videos on this topic would be very helpful.
Wrong. The artistic choices themselves were terrible.
That style of animation was the worst possible to capture the emotion of the moment
Naruto vs Pain has better animation than Bleach tybw latest episode which people call it 'good animation' But the few things i see this episode is good at is composition and some cgi
Thanks for all the information!!
When the lack of budget forces a gamble that pays out poorly, it doesn't stand to reason to blame the audience. It was high in technical skill, but that does not solely make something aesthetically pleasing. After all, one cannot argue with taste. This is a common issue in all form of art.
I take solace in the fact that over the recent years people have begun to open up more to the Naruto Vs. Pain fight, but it makes you think if it was too late... The mainstream is being exposed to more and more stylised, or "unique", animation now so it makes you wonder if it will soon be overwhelmingly accepted. I mean, Akihiro Ota gets hype callouts every time he appears on One Piece and yet he has a style I think many would've neglected in the mainstream just a few years back.
While a topic I've seen covered before, I had never known about the specific scheduling issues present at the time. The Movie offsetting the TV Show's production does make me wonder what an alternate reality would've played out like. But then again, why would I miss the chance at the masterclass this amazing team produced. Chin up Wakabayashi, there is a future for you yet.
Yah.
And, I feel like a hypocrite for speaking my mind just now.
But anyway...
The people bashing those odd looking animations at the time will eventually change their minds. They'll just wait for it to be mainstream, so that liking it will be considered "cool".
Personally, I also find the Pain vs Naruto fight a bit cartoonish, but it lets you have a better sense of feel on how intense that fight was.
Absolute madness!!
@@pingmusikz When most people walk around as the literal textbook definition of FOMO.. it's no wonder that they cut off their own enjoyment for the sake of the crowd until many years later.
It's sad! The pain fight was one of the best animated in any anime for its time.
@@kirvu9677 💯 agreed
it was bad, no worry in saying that, no matter the artisitic intent it just wasn't the time or place and it shows
saying it now is easy cause its not the newest episode but to then it was the greatest waste of potential in a episode for no good reason
@@kirvu9677pain being a loony toones character is good animation?
I remember the first time I watched 167. My jaw was on the floor the entire time so captivated by a level of intensity that imo had not been achieved prior. To go online afterwards and see a bunch of hate was confusing to say the least
Was like, “what? How can people appreciate mob psycho but think this is trash?” I think mob psycho is A tier animation by the way
Can woks be cleaned with soap?
SAME lol omg...it was so crazy in an awesome way! I didn't get the hate
Intensity is the perfect word for it! And so much was at stake in the story. My jaw was literally to the floor
I mean how is it confusing?
I liked the intensity too. But I can definitely see why the Looney Tunes antics might turn people off based on the tone and mindset they were programmed to be in from the entire rest of the show up to this point. lol
56 thousands views. I am happy to see your channel growing
the episode 167 fight has always been my favorite fight in naruto, i rewatched it dozens of times
I remember looking forward to the naruto vs pain fight back when it was weekly and then being disappointed by what we got but looking back at it now it’s still not as good as I would have liked but it’s not as bad as I remember it
I work in Motion Design and a similar take is prevalent in the industry.
We are often said we should focus on how a composition design (or artstyle or how on model a character looks like in anime terms) looks rather than movement since that is what the general audience is capable of perceiving.
It reminds of me of how anime fans in general compare a single frame from an anime to a whole manga panel when the whole point of animation is that it's meant to be viewed in motion.
I totally agree with this. The thing is that in this specific fight many people think that the seriousness of the situation and the whole coldness of Pains character wasn't portrayed well in the anime, regardless of the visuals and the animation.
No wonder why people think Bleach: Thousand Still Frames War is a visual spectacle...
@@hewhoshallacquirepowerando1266 when its animated it is pretty but it really is just a pretty shonen
@@hewhoshallacquirepowerando1266 Yeah. I'm actually kinda surprised to see the animation in Bleach finally step up its game recently compared to what it once was. It was always cool, but it was always so stiff and stale in the fights near the beginning. Now they're flying around doing all kinds of dynamic movements in the TYBW arc. o:
@@Axxidous That wasn't the point I was trying to make 😭Bleach has pretty colors (which I don't like IMO, but that's fine) but the movement itself is often stiff
Amazing video man ! Love your content.
I remember seeing this fight when it aired as a kid, and it was and is still my favorite naruto shippuden fight/arc.
I got my bfa in drawing and painting. A dream of mine is to illustrate a comic but I’m a landscape painter at heart. With that said, I did take an intro to animation course (and of course a couple illustration courses too). Since then, my appreciation and respect for anime has skyrocketed. The pain arch might have been exaggerated a bit too far but in the end, the movement was there and achieved what it needed to
I hope Atsushi Wakabayashi is in charge of most of the Boruto episodes when Part 2 of the anime airs. Its ashame how much of his talent went unused since 167 aired.
Now that I´ve seen your video, I can say that this director focused solely on his art and not on the story he was telling and therefore that makes him a bad director.
That pain fight was cold they tripping lol 😂
My favorite channel on UA-cam atm
These kind of people are just shit, especially people who just go to harass the staff without knowing what they even did
For better or for worse. We are going into a more compositing-heavy, on model animation era rather than fluid sakuga-heavy animation. I think demon slayer might have finalized this shift at least in the mainstream audiences mind
This comment reminds me of everytime I have to discuss about animation in comment sections. I have to first explain to people the what animation, art style amd composition are because people just blend them together and think they are all animation. Like this Pain fight. It's not the animation that people dislike it's the change of art style. In demon slayer it's not the animation that people like it's the composition same with Fate series. Sure the animation on those shows are top quality but their composition is what makes them visually appealing.
that's a bit untrue, maybe for mainstream shonen manga you might see that 'shift', but you will always have boutique studios like science saru existing and doing crazy amazing stuff. On-model, fx heavy stuff has always been around in different forms, cos it's just a consistent that brings in the money, but it's been around and dominated since forever - just look at stuff like sailor moon the 90s and their transformation sequences. Sakuga doesn't have to mean on-model lol, it's just good animation.
I rewatched the final leg of the Pain fight last week and I had to hold back laughter! The intended effect of the action scene simply isn´t achieved. The animation is fine if over-ambitious but the wrong person was put in charge. Naruto is not Ping Pong or MP 100 and worst of all, the art shift randomly happens and then goes away leading to an uncanny valley. A work-for-hire animator put himself above the overall vision of the then 400-something EP project to put it into an uncharitable view.
I am not sure if a film or filler arc with this art style and animation could have worked but doing 1.5 eps of that with nothing before or after it in that look was an insane decision. Put Looney Tunes antics on top of that and you create a meme legend.
First video with 100K views. Wooohoo yeah baby. That's what I've been waiting for. That's what this is all about. Wooohoo
As an animator/ sakugahead, I love this video. My exposure to the Naruto anime comes mainly from fight clips, and tbh I understand both sides of the debate. Personally, I love to go balls to the wall, and break boundaries/ go wild with my animation even if it means only sakuga fans will appreciate it, but I also think that when it comes to commercial projects, consideration for the story/ general audience has to be considered too. Mob Psycho and One Piece to me are shows that can inherently get away with far crazier, goofier, creative animation due to the tone of the show, while shows like Naruto and especially Bleach imo benefit from having more clarity, “coolness”, and overall stronger/ more on model character drawings. While I think Matsumoto dances the line very well, personally I actually feel that scenes like the Pain fight and a lot of TYBW shots (especially Ichigo vs Yhwach) despite being an immense showing of skill, it was a bit too goofy for how serious that part of the story was. (Yamashita’s cuts are perfect for bleach tho) It’s actually a bit of the opposite situation in Chainsawman, where the animation is phenomenal, but leaned a tad too realistic in its animation direction for how absurd and goofy the show is. I’m glad that overall, Sakuga literacy seems to be going up as the topic is slowly seeping into the mainstream, but I would also argue that a show *generally* shouldn’t require any sakuga literacy to appreciate. While I personally think Weilin Zhang’s “blast breath” sequence in the recent gear 5 fight might be one of the greatest cuts of animation ever, I also understand where people with less interest in sakuga are coming from saying it’s an incoherent mess.
i really like how you worded it.. for me its not that i say the person is a bad artist fgor me its more that it doesnt fit the show and the arc by any means.
Half the filler BS in Naruto is FAR FROM COOL.... Also ideas like Sexy Jitsu, and Pervy sage, Naruto is one of the more uncool goofy shows, with serious moments. Pain and the 9 tails chakra were drastic departures from what visually from what had come before it so of course it should have looked different. Also the village as a staple of the show suddenly being gone in 1 episode is bending the reality of what's expected as did the animation.
I think bleach being so well drawn is why animators struggle at all. Replicating Kubo’s art in a short amount of time is near impossible.
People who call the Pain fight "badly animated" are just objectively wrong... HOWEVER that fight did feature some very controversial looking artwork and it's honestly understandable if some people didn't like the fight because of it. I think, as always, it's important to differentiate between art and animation. Most people still see these two as one and the same thing unfortunately.
Yeah, the fight was well animated, but not fittingly drawn. That style would've fit something like Mob Psycho where the characters can be stretched and squashed out of model without looking off
@@hewhoshallacquirepowerando1266 yup
for real, those two episode of naruto are my favourite fight animation ever, i love it so much, it’s beautiful, fluid and jaw dropping to watch, it is a masterpiece in my eyes
naruto shippuden ep 167 is actually my fav episode right after 82, and that sasuke fight with danzo
I think they're mistaking weird drawings for the characters for "bad animation"
I agree with you. Years later the Pain arc is still one of the best arcs with my favorite fight of the show
Just because a lot of time, energy, and love went into the animation doesn’t necessarily guarantee everyone is going to enjoy it. Regardless of how much effort went into producing it, the animation was incredibly stylized, and not everyone is going to appreciate that style. ❤
Great video, thank you!
The goofy in between frames are what makes the animation more smooth.
I thought bleach new season is well liked because how pretty it is ?
As for Naruto vs Pain. It was creatively interesting and the animation/action choreography was amazing. But you have to admit . Some of the wackier expressions and how characters looked at points. It felt jarring and took people out of the story . Its not technically bad, it just very different from what mainstream shounen people are used to . At the end of the day naruto is a one of the big 3 and with that comes expectations from regular people who are not into animaton and do no understand the nuance of it.
the thing with bleach is that they have chosen to main a consistent art style above fluid animation, and that’s exactly why is good, because it basically don’t move. it’s like the naruto method of production that manko talked about, it’s like, 11 ok episodes for 1 “sakuga episode”
@@Kabutsuji Also art remaining consistent is very inoffensive to the general fanbase of a mainstream show like bleach, where character art is put on a pedestal and character movement is optional.
@@-MankoManalso Bleach's one of the sources of income is its art exhibitions in Japan, so it's like two birds with one stone situation
And that's exactly why I prefer Bleach. I hate sacrificing art and detail for the sake of fast movement and fluidity. I just don't understand how people can like that because at times it becomes impossible to even understand what's happening on screen
@@schiffer2386 if you are talking about OG bleach then it's a good example but tybw series is lacking tho
Im still wondering why people call that cut of Boruto bad, they saw his arm snap and people ecpect him to have a straight face
Because it's mixture of making fun of Boruto and calling it bad.
there is a crunchyroll interview in which shingo yama said that he wanted to incorporate balloon physics into his animations for #167.
someone talking about it. thanks man. it broke my heart. still does.
Haven't watched Naruto 😔
Edit: Damn, the ability make me watch till the very end on a video about concepts almost unkown to me, that too about a show that I've majorly ignored, is the ability only a few have(even more so in this "5 Second Dopamine Hit'" based era of the internet).
"The downfall of a director that worked on high quality episodes of Naruto" was probably one of the last things I would expect myself to be interested in, even despite that the video was very enjoyable and interesting.
Also why did your background just go through a shonen time-skip.💀
I never imagined I would ever see "1.1k comments" under a mankoman video. You sure have come a long way. Just wanted to give you a shoutout because I've been a regular subscriber since like 1.5 years and I NEVER miss out on your videos, seriously, even while I'm studying for my 12th exams. You probably don't remember me, but if you check some of your old videos, you'd surely find my comments too.
Anyway, that doesn't really matter. Just keep doing what you're doing :)
I'm pretty sure that I do remember you. You had a warhammer Titan PFP prior to this right?
Nope. I've always had this sky-cloud pfp since the day I joined youtube lmao xD
Even now knowing how impressive the scene was from a technical standpoint, I still despise it. Imagine how impressive it would have been to achieve that animation while remaining consistent aesthetically with the hundreds of episodes. Unique? It certainly is. But enjoyable? Not for me, personally. I can remember questioning whether I was watching the right episode. I thought for several minutes that the site I was using might have swapped out a fan made video instead. I was that jarring of a change.
I'm not going to feel bad about not liking it. I don't like the fandom either but they aren't the fault. A stylistic decision was made and it backfired, it's really that simple
This kind of thing makes me so mad and sad. The amount of unimaginably bad takes I see daily on social media about animation is baffling. People talking/giving takes about animation that have literally 0 idea of what is going and how animation works at even a basic level. I had to fucking explain to someone the other day that yes, someone actually draws every changing frame. I tried to explain to him how timing works and just didn’t believe me 💀 then proceeded to give a take about “low quality” animation on a fight in Wano. I see shit like this daily it’s fucking insane these people either need to learn or shut the fuck up lol
Maybe he should've said the clear truth.
It's ugly, hard to follow, and has jarring art, and colors to bright, frames to fast to see clearly what's happening.
Same with pain fight.
@@bobbob-zc1nx you said nothing objective lmao
@JAELANGREEN yes I did.
That's the objective consensus of the fans.
It's mocked, clowned on even.
Where the ones buying and watching it.
Your quality control is too our taste and observations not some artists
@@bobbob-zc1nx Maybe your interpretational skills are weak
@amaimon8031 there not.
The original comment and this video proves my claims.
I swear, all fanboys are the same, your product gets criticism and/or crowned on........then yall deny reality.
You just say nuh- uh.
Like I said, give people the products they want, and want to buy, and you artists can "express" yourselves on your own time, with your own dime, on your forums or shows
It’s very subjective, really.
I can understand both sides, the animation was never bad, rather the style it was portrayed did not, to a majority of people, fit with the context.
Everyone loves the Hokage Fight and Naruto vs. Sasuke from Part 1, they still don’t change the style drastically, while in this case, they do, feeling very rubbery. I understand that Pain is a lifeless body, but he is not made of rubber anywhere in the manga.
Say One Piece, the loose animation fit the context extremely well tonally.
I’m not saying I didn’t like it, it was a great experiment, but I’m glad other sakuga episodes weren’t animated in this style for Naruto.
I understand all the limitations that went into it, but it is what it is.
Great video man! Please do more Naruto content. I would love a breakdown of some of the best fights in Naruto, especially the Last Naruto vs Sasuke fight. I havent seen anyone do a breakdown of it. Again, great work. I watch everytime you upload.
I really thought naruto theme vid will be boring but you really nailed it
Great work bro
Thanks
I absolutely agree that this sequence looks amazing, and I'm annoyed when people say that it's poorly animated. However, I think it makes sense that a lot of people don't like it because so much of it looks incredibly goofy. I'm not even talking about the Kage nashi drawings and fluidity and squishiness of the animation, you can have those things and still present them as a high stakes, serious sequence. However, there are plenty of sequences that are storyboarded more like a slapstick comedy scenes than a dramatic climax to an action show. On one hand you have the "My pain is greater than yours" cut, the cut with Naruto twisting and hurling rocks at pain, and the cut with Pain traversing the water as if he were a fish, sequences that I love for depicting how these beings are more like forces of nature or wild beasts than anything human. But on the other hand, you have scenes like Naruro slamming a rock on Pain's head like a nail into a wood floor, or the scene with Pain crashing into a wall only to have his whole body sticking out like a dart on a wall. They're extremely well animated, but these look like visual gags, not a battle of demi-gods. Put this episode in Devilman Crybaby, Konosuba, or One Piece and I bet no one wouldn't bat an eye, but put it here after a sakuga drought fans apparently felt during the Pain arc and of course people will latch onto the goofy bits. I love it, and I want to see more episodes like it, but I feel like changing the approach to some of these comedic looking cuts would've helped others love it too.
Sorry but I brust out laughing when pain was jumping like a doliphane in the water.
I couldn't take him seriously after that
I won't speak of the animation or the quality of a director cause in all honesty, I know I don't know enough to have a proper opinion on it, however, I think it's also pretty reductive to say that the fandom is just stupid and their criticisms were all nonsense. I think this heavy mismatch between the animation quality and the public's reception isn't found in most of the best animation of Naruto. Naruto vs Sasuke, Kakashi vs Obito or Madara against the entire army are great pieces of animation that are extremely well regarded by the fans, so what happened here? From what I can gather, and recall from back in the day, people just didn't like the tone chosen for the moment. For some reason the director of the episode decided to make some homages to classic cartoons apparently, with Pain doing a roadrunner type of running sequence and him getting nailed to the ground or head planting a wall like you'd see in Looney Tunes, that and he made some very very bold choices like grabbing the very iconic and serious still panel of Pain saying "my pain is greater than yours" and turning into an hyper liquified punching motion (that was bound to be controversial regardless of animation quality). You can argue with people all day about being good or bad on animation standards, but the reality is that the direction didn't strike the heart of what a good deal of the fans expected or wanted, and that's a shortcoming, cause again, the best animation in Naruto is well regarded by fans, it's very strange to have this huge pushback, sometimes it happens with very short sequences or very specific moments for those who whine about differences from the manga, but never on like an entire episode or a fight or to this extent. So something definitely went wrong with the direction that shouldn't be simply blamed on "them stupid fanboys not knowing good from bad". That's just my take, I sure hope that director gets more chances to shine though, it certainly sucks that a misstep ruins your career. Good video though, very informative.
This deserves to be a pinned comment!
This was well put.
The guy here comes off as a snob.
Why is it so hard to understand
If it's ugly, the pictures don't look as expected, if it's hard to follow, and doesn't follow the source materials;
It will rightfully be rejected and mocked.
We decide good from bad, not artists.
We buy the products and watch the ads.
Your art school standards are worthless in the real world
If people call this AI generated. Then people should also need to know that AI is human generated in indusries.
It wasn't the animation that was the problem but the unfit art direction that threw people off. Obviously, it wasn't intended that the Pain fight (one of the most serious and major fights in the entire franchise) would come across like a slapstick Looney Tunes brawl but that's exactly what happened so regardless it's only fair to call such tonal dissonance a directorial failure. You can blame the studio for funneling most of the available resources at the time into a movie (I think they were working on Blood Prison if my memory's correct) but that's ultimately what we're left with.
As for why 166 is so beloved whereas 167 is reviled, the lesser action ironically made the style better to digest and the storytelling pulled a lot of weight to make it work in spite of it. Even in its case though, the redo of Hinata's confession in The Last is evidence that what we originally got still had a lot of room for improvement.
I vividly remember watching 167 when it came out - my eyes were glued to the screen for the entire episode, it was that unique and fascinating, and I was just blown away (even if I didn't understand anything about animation at the time)
Then I naively went down to the comments hoping to see other people gushing about it, only to find a bunch of "l0l dumb face go brrrrr". Never been so disappointed
Lmao I did the same thing back then. I couldn't understand why anyone would say THAT was bad even though I too didn't know anything about animation.
It felt like people say one person hate and just jumped on the bandwagon to hate for no reason.
@@sayianman1361 It got easy likes. Twitter is currently the same way where people will give their "takes" knowing full well it's either an unpopular or uneducated one.
I wouldn't be surprised if half the people calling One Piece terrible because of Gear 5th haven't even read or watched the material.
@runemaster8656 I know for a fact they haven't actually watched OP because every single time they admit they haven't when asked lmao
@@sayianman1361but muh screenshots of individual frams instead of the animation as a whole. All this squashing and stretching and exaggerated foreshortening in this one screeenshot that lasts 1 frame is totally bad animation. Why can't they be stiff and rigid like I want?
@@sayianman1361 I've only watched maybe 30 episodes of OP, like episode 1 to 30, and even I could see how amazing and purposeful each frame was for Gear 5. I totally got it, it was goofy cause it's meant to be, the team who worked on it, did it right.
this is why i stand strongly behind seasonal anime. quality over quantity. if Naruto was seasonal, the consistency could have been amazing
It depends. Maybe they would got tighter schedule
Yet this guy said the Bleach animation quality was poor and the peak was Renji vs Mask...
Been watching Naruto cause I've never seen it and honestly I'm always in awe at how good the fights are. Like for show that came out so long ago and it looks so good? I was hooked during the chunin exams
Amazing video bro
I remember child me watching this and being like "holy crap this is crazy" at some points, and then seeing the goofy smears and looney-toon esc. moments and just being completely taken out of the tension of the fight. I totally agree that the animation was absolutely insane, and massive props to those who worked on it, but the way it was animated at some points is the thing that i feel like the majority of people ACTUALLY had an issue with, but just didn't quite know how to properly express it. I also think the G5 comparison in the pinned comment was bound to happen, but I think its so relevant and such a good example for a talking point for this exact kind of situation, but in the case for One Piece, it was amazing because it being crazy, goofy, and absurd all made sense for the show, and more specifically the power itself
so in my honest opinion as someone who doesnt know alot about animation .. we did get a reall action packed episode for sure. but the art style in my opinion doesnt fit the overall feeling of the series. the tone of the arc was so serious for then to come to a goofy conclusion at the end for me wasnt it. and i think in this case its the directors fault for not stepping in and telling the animator to keep certain guid luines cuz at the end its not all about a animators style and expression. they are making a serie and they have customers/viewers to satisfy so why divert so much from that what always kept everyone happy. after all these years i still think its the worse episode we ever got just because itd doesnt fit the overal artstyle of the series
There's Something called episode director. The director didn't steped it? Why are you making shit up?
I saw people online who said the animation in Spider-Man across the spiderverse was bad.
back then i wasnt looking at social media much, especially around anime contents, so me and my friends always thought this was the best n most intense fight in shippuden for a while(before the war arc), its pretty crazy to me to find out recently that people didnt like it back then
Neat! Great takes! Not staying inside a box of animation conventions is what has given us the best animation, trying new things doesn’t always slap how you want in the moment but the eyes that recognize, reveal for others that then can appreciate!
I'm so happy this video was made. What you said here seriously NEEDED TO BE SAID.
Keep up the good work in general btw, your videos are great :) .
I think the 2 episodes that were so different from others was the reason why people in general panned it. When I watch Naruto vs Pain now, its absolute adrenaline overload how fluid the animation is. But watching 001-165 and then sudden shift to 166/167 really makes you wonder if you are even watching the same show
I was off put on that episode long ago but when I rewatched it back a few years ago, I realized how much work was put into it because I wanted to see if it was as "bad" as I remembered it. And now I was actually intrigued instead of thrown off for the animation.
But in all respect SHAME on those fandoms for making that animator become like he is today, I can imagine being shunned in Japan especially in the anime industry, I just hope he is doing well today and makes a beautiful comeback, he deserved so much better than before.
It makes my heart break to know he most likely went through some really bad thoughts and stuff (and knowing Japan's high suicidal rate, I hope he never thought that).
Thank you for this video, it makes me realize that animators are still people and fandoms should seriously take a step back instead of straight up berating on it like it's a fun thing to do. I feel for the guy, seriously. I hope he is blessed with a super Grade A project and has that 2nd chance to showcase his expressions and redeem himself.
Cool video. Very unfortunate event honestly. I hope he gets back on some high profile shit as you said.
BUT just to play Devil's advocate, I don't think we can fully blame audience for this. Like not everyone is well versed with animation industry and know how/technicals. Casual audience(which formed the bulk in those days), it just wanted to see a cool fight with possibly their fav antagonist/character. Not to sound like a boomer, back then it wasn't much about analysis and more about cool factor. There weren't many people who were like "Ohh this is so deep", "you don't understand the show xyz, go back to watch dumb DBZ", "it's so different so must be good", etc. It was more about seeing cool people doing cool things(not to say analytical value weren't present then, but it didn't took this much precedence over enjoyment as is now). You came back from school and opened the TV to watch some cool shit. And then you see you fav cool character with that face. Yeah I can see why people would be unhappy. Especially for shows like Naruto(or Bleach), where characters/character designs are so important and coolness was one of the reason it became popular. Seeing the shift in artstyle can be jarring.
I mean casual fans are just going to watch a thing and like/dislike it based on how it looked to their eyes. It was that simple. They don't care for artistic talent or how much time it would have taken, etc. And honestly, they don't have the responsibility to do that. They just want simple entertainment. That's what they paid for. They just watch, like or dislike and then leave. And we have to give them some leeway when they say they don't like the "animation". It's pretty easy to see that they will use this term for every issue. When they say "animation", they don't actually mean animation(moving parts). They just use it as an umbrella term. I don't think anyone was mad at the animation of that episode but more so the drawings and art. Yes we can educate more and more people on this, but it will never be fully spread and we will continue to get these type of takes.
Again, not to say it gives these people right to harass the staff or shove their uninformed opinion down other people's throat. And they can't cry if they get countered by others who actually know about this stuff. But we have to understand, they can't critique animation in depth. Just like how I can't critique food like Gordon Ramsey. And it's fine as long as they keep in their limits. Just my thoughts on this matter.
And yeah Idk about sakuga community seeping into anime community more and more as a fully positive thing. I have seen many people who says shit like "trash show", "powerpoint", "you shouldn't be enjoying this shitty anime", etc. if it isn't the same level as CSM, JJk or Demon Slayer. SO yeah I have mixed feelings.
Thanks for the video man. I enjoyed it. Sorry for the long ass essay :(
This currently has changed a lot with the one peice 1071/2, it has top teir animation and literally the gems of this generation Paritacption on it and yeah people appreciate it it,even casual viewrs, ofc luffy is rubber so he is stretching and the expressions and emotions are felt thought the animation! Nowadays people appreciate this type of highly profile "unique" Episodes and i hope it stays that eay
My mans Vincent and Zhand Cooked that episode I really don't understand the hate. I don't watch one piece But I do love animation.
@@seya_2Maybe because people were expecting Goku vs Jiren/Ultra Instinct debut level animation
@@seya_2 I don't think people hate the animation, it's mostly recived positively, tho some "sakuga" Tards calls it's too wobbly or exaggerated
@@mahiru20tenthe animation is better than that thr jiren fight tho, its not even a question, it's just more cartoony which makes sense given the context of the episode
People still roast it lol.
Rightfully.
Can't hardly tell what's going on, and you grt jarring images.
The one piece fanboys can't take criticism and have toxic positivity, so they over compensate praise to try and drown out the criticism.
They do it with everything not just animation.
But yeah that's some well animated trash right there
When it comes to that fight and i saw all of those squares and cubes, i just wanted to close it. It just looked so bad for me.
Let him work on op. The fans have been going crazy over the recent animations and the art style of the show is goofy anyway so he doesn't have to worry about that.
Literally everything you put out is so facinating and enjoyable to watch, I'm always learning something new! I have an even further apriciation for animation for animation now and it's really refreshing to be able to watch some of my favorites with a more critical eye. You're awesome~
Fantastic video here. This fight got me hyped the first time I saw it. The stretchy animation, along with how fluid it is, perfectly shows how Pain is a puppet all along. Seeing Pain fighting in such an unhinged fashion against Naruto, as if it's personal was really special here, considering how articulate he was before.
I literally brust out laughing when his face turned into jelly or he jumped in water as a fish
Congratulations with 100k)
I love the animation during the pain fight!
So much memories of back then. I was so excited for those episodes and when I saw them specially 167, I hated it so much. I was like "I waited months to finally watch this epic fight animated and this is what I get!?".
Now, thanks to my animation course at Uni I learned that animationwise the episodes are gold but I still don't like the aesthetics, soft lines, flat colors and absurdly off model characters are just not of my liking.
I would hate to get an episode like Shippuuden 167 in Bleach TYBW, Bleach so far has been nearly perfect.
Bud. The Animation is above average at best in bleach tybw. It rarely moves. It relies on flashy colors and still frames. Also it has unintersting storyboards for the Most part
Nearly perfect? More like still frames and limited animation. Bleach TYBW is not a well-animated series ask any professional animator they would be saying some other animes.
@@domainhami5253are you braindead ?
Bleach tybw doesn't have a movie level animation but its well animated
Animation is important but the other aspects are important
Do you want good animation with a one piece fucking level compostion ?
Biggest difference in pain vs luffy:
Luffy knows he is clown and doesn't try to act serious + goofy ahh sound effects
When pain music is dark as fck, everyone died, hinata was tortured
But uts only 3-4 loney tunes moments so it didn't ruined mood
Still enjoyed when watched 1st time
I will never forget skinless Kurama escaping from moon.
SHINRAAAA TENSEEEIIIII!!!!
Also hinata fight scene was a reason why I fell in love with her, and this ending with "jitensha jitensha, koide, koide" just pure sweetness
Great adaptation
Authors didn't deserve all this hate
As much as i enjoyed episode 167 despite the backlash it has gotten, i really resented the show makers way of doing things, sacrafising all of the pain arc with every episodes being garbage except for two episodes. Still maddens me to this day.
I considered these episodes to be absolute masterpieces. It breaks my heart
Congratulations on the 4k subs man. I'm gonna say it now. I'll come back to this video 10 years later when your subs count has reached 4 million just to remember that I've been a subscriber of this channel when it had less than 900 subs. Your channel is one of my favorites and definitely the one whose videos I'm most excited about. I even forcefully made my anime watching friends watch your ufotable video😂😂
I don't know shit about animation except for a few principles. I knew I was in for something special when Pain shouted "My pain is still far greater than yours!!!!!!" and slammed his fist into the earth. I replayed that moment several times before continuing the episode. It's a wonderful episode to me. I can't explain why though.
Dude I literally brust out laughing when his face become jelly when he did that
I can definitely see both sides of audience reception for these varying animation styles, though I lean more toward the fluid animation because it's the visual equivalent of eating a handful of perfectly-crispy french fries. But damn, whatever direction the industry heads in, I just want these animators to stay employed forever. Whatever they make, I hope they get to cook in perpetuum.
good video cant wait to see more!