Melipona Bee Defies Evolution
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- Опубліковано 11 тра 2008
- The vanilla orchid only blooms one morning per year and only the Melipona Bee knows how to pollinate the vanilla flower!
Find this, and more, in the "Incredible Creatures That Defy Evolution" DVD series, at
www.explorationfilms.com/explo... - Розваги
A few things. First, the bee is pronounced as it sounds: Melipona. There are many species of Melipona - Melipona is a genus, and is one of many genus of stingless bees. Bees and other pollinators don't " know" how to pollinate. They " know" how to find and collect food ( pollen and nectar) - and their actions just happen to transfer pollen, often times pollinating the plant. Bees compete for flowers and flowers compete for bees, and a feedback loop happens which effects the physical qualities and actions of all involved over very long periods of time. The book The Forgotten Pollinators explains this and much more. The vanilla plant and it's specialist bee don't defy evolution at all - their story is as common as bumble bees and buzz pollination various plants
The flowers "compete"? Ridiculous!
***** Bumble Bees 'common'? Ridiculous!
thats evolution!
Yes, there are at least 40 species of Melipona bee
I'm a farmer and I really don't care about these creationist vs evolution debate. This video has good information because the farmer in my country manually pollinated their vanilla. I'll try with local stingless bee species to pollinate it, if it's success, it'll be a big profit for us because not only we can harvest vanilla, we can also harvest the honey and propolis. Thx for sharing
Did the sting less bee work for your vanilla orchard??
It is more advantageous for this plant to only be pollinated from it's own species, thus the specialized pollinator. The mechanism evolved gradually, as the septum became tighter, so only the more persistent insects (which collect pollen in leu of nectar) would push in. Eventually, only this 1 species of bee was persistent enough, while all other insects are denied entry, thus reducing the chance of contamination.
My physics professor was just saying how the unique structure of the water molecule, with hydrogen bonding between the molecules, allows its liquid phase to be denser than its solid phase at cold temperatures, by forcing the solid to take an abnormal hexagonal structure, permitting ice to float on top of water and thereby preventing the ocean from filling with ice during ice ages, allowing life to survive underwater during them. It is a similar example of the necessity of design, one of many ways that life could not exist if physics were not constructed in such a way that the water molecule was very advantageous to the existence of life.
Of course they didn’t have to be “made” together. For sure earlier versions of the vanilla orchid flower were easier to pollinate by many insects, but they evidently co-evolved with their symbiotic partner the melipona stingless bee, resulting in a flower now specialized to work with just the symbiote. What a silly assumption that they miraculously appeared already evolved, one day.
Thanks for the video. Very interesting. I have both melipona bees and ka'an zac bees...both are sting-less. However, from what local Mayan beekeepers tell me, the melipona is too big to pollinate the vanilla flower. And so either the ka'an zac or the xilk' bee are the pollinators...both are much, much smaller than the melipona. My vanilla still has not flowered. My vines are about 3 years old. They are growing fine...just not flowering. Good to meet you.
Dennis. Have your vines flowered yet and have your bees polinated them? You would know if they were polinated because the "beans" would start to grow..... Let us all know please.
Yeah I'd like to know also
It's quite incredible how creationists can come so close to discovering a major topic in evolutionary biology and still completely miss it. Co-evolution is an incredible concept! It beautifully explains so many things in nature!
get saved
{ وَأَوۡحَىٰ رَبُّكَ إِلَى ٱلنَّحۡلِ أَنِ ٱتَّخِذِي مِنَ ٱلۡجِبَالِ بُيُوتٗا وَمِنَ ٱلشَّجَرِ وَمِمَّا يَعۡرِشُونَ }
[Surah An-Naḥl: 68]
Dr. Mustafa Khattab:
And your Lord inspired the bees: “Make ˹your˺ homes in the mountains, the trees, and in what people construct,
{ ثُمَّ كُلِي مِن كُلِّ ٱلثَّمَرَٰتِ فَٱسۡلُكِي سُبُلَ رَبِّكِ ذُلُلٗاۚ يَخۡرُجُ مِنۢ بُطُونِهَا شَرَابٞ مُّخۡتَلِفٌ أَلۡوَٰنُهُۥ فِيهِ شِفَآءٞ لِّلنَّاسِۚ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَأٓيَةٗ لِّقَوۡمٖ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ }
[Surah An-Naḥl: 69]
Dr. Mustafa Khattab:
and feed from ˹the flower of˺ any fruit ˹you please˺ and follow the ways your Lord has made easy for you. From their bellies comes forth liquid of varying colours, in which there is healing for people. Surely in this is a sign for those who reflect.
Freaking fascinating!!! Thank you little bee!
I live in the Yucatan of Mexico (possibly the "home" of vanilla). I am growing vanilla vines and I am husbanding (actually read that as keeping pets) both Melipona beechei (the Maya sting-less bees, also known as xunan cab in Yucatec Maya) and a much smaller sting-less bee called Ka'an Sac. My vanilla is not yet old enough to flower but I am hoping this year will be the year. I am told by Mayan beekeepers that the Melipona is too big to pollinate the vanilla flower but the Ka'an Sac is just the right size to enter the flower. We will see. Empirical evidence, in my opinion, trumps bibical extrapolation. When direct observation of an event or process fits the concept of "evolution", it strengthens the concept. And to me, it matters a tinkers damn if the universe was created by intelligent design or by happenstance. It is wondrous, magical and awe-inspiring. And something that I will never understand. Nor do I feel the need to.
That’s so cool. What other flowers do you cultivate, to keep the bees busy the rest of the time? Do you know if those varieties will habituate flow hives?
Updates @mexicodenis
For those of you who dont get it, here is some help: the melipona bee does not defy evolution in the sense of disproving it. Mentioning that the bee and the plant were made for each other is also a comment not intended to disprove evolution. Combined, they are a statement that under normal circumstances, such a symbiotic relationship does not exist in nature because in would normally drive a species to extinction, and this remarkable pair defies THAT aspect of evolution, where weakness is culled
"Without the bee you just don't have the bean"
"So here comes the artificial pollenation"
Informações importantes. A interação entre as plantas e as abelhas realmente é incrível na evolução do planeta.
at last someone able to interpret this video
good one sir, well done
The amazing workings of nature seem so fragile. Bless the power of the flower and the wonder of the bee!
i love stingless bee..nice video
@Dtoo "wouldn't the flower evolve to make it easier for this bee?"
No, that's the point. They are specialists species. The flower has to spend less energy producing pollen and nectar because the bee will only go to this type of flower and not other flowers that can't be pollinated. Remember the short life of the flower? Some flowering species spend energy producing flowers that live for days or weeks to insure pollination.
how does one get the melipona bee to start a hive??
good explanation
The fact that organisms respond to and adapt in accordance with selective pressures from the environment is supported by an overwhelmingly large body of evidence.
And, no, the relationship between this bee and this orchid does not invalidate evolutionary biology. Re-read my last post:
"
How does this invalidate evolution? It simply demonstrates that the Melipona Bee and the vanilla orchid have evolved to fit into a mutual symbiotic niche."
No surprise for biologists.
Thanks for the explanation. We'll talk more soon!
you have some great stuff here
A transposon is a gene that is able to move or copy itself from one chromosome to another:
When two transposable elements that are recognized by the same site-specific recombination enzyme (transposase) integrate into neighboring chromosomal sites, the DNA between them can become subject to transposition by the transposase. Because this provides a particularly effective pathway for the duplication and movement of exons (exon shuffling), these elements can help create new genes.
Aww don't go away, I need my daily laugh.
You may have not seen other videos but we talking about a guy who used to be a pure evolutionist that opened up his mind to other concepts that were there even before evolution and at some point you have to make up you mind. All it takes a humble heart that maybe what we were thought is all wrong.
wow i love that last thing he said "they had to be made together" as in at the same time..hmmm bible much :) love it
So what is your theory on how that happened? Explain the process.
Yeah, this guy is hilarious his knowledge of evolution is astounding.
haha
It's so funny to see an academic point his index finger into the thumb and index finger of the other hand to demonstrate at 1:43 to 1:50.
hahahaha
"A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question."
Above quoted from English astronomer Fred Hoyle because he said it so well.
no wonder vanilla pods are so expensive. the flowers only bloom and last one day. sheesh, i wonder why it takes so long and for so short a period it blooms
The bee wasn't made for the flower, the flower adapted slowly over time to seduce the bee better and better
They didn't have to be made together. the flower has to have the bee, but the bee doesn't need that specific flower.
The vanilla orchid evolved in an environment that already had these bees, who were originally surviving off of other flowers.
Common
Sense
how long was the orchid pollinated before the bees came to evolve?
It appears to me to be a miracle in many ways...
1s and 0s are indeed representations of voltage levels, and DNA is NOT a representation of anything. It has a chemical reaction because it has to. It does not represent anything, nor does something else representing something tell DNA what to do. And this is why it could never be considered the same kind of 'code'. I am quite sure you are not capable of ever understanding this, but it doesn't matter what you say or think, that ship has sailed. Sorry for your loss.
@toddcruzaider
What YOU are missing is that what you said is true of the vanilla plant NOW. The plant has ALSO evolved.
The plant was not always in its current configuration. So there was PLENTY enough time to evolve alongside one another. You have to understand evolution, which you clearly do not.
It is more like a chemical reaction than 'code'. The letters are letters we have given to them, our attempt at labeling it.
@alfuentesev There would need to be a causation for it to have slowly evolved to that shape. Plant don't plan or even have elementary reasoning like some animals do. The melipona bee could still cross pollinate.
Could it be that the flowers weren't always the way they are now, perhaps open at one point in time, untill for some reason it became advantageous to evolve the way they did into what they are now, and through that gradual change, the bees were also able to adapt to the new characteristic of the flower, figuring out the new anatomy of the flower as it changed slowly. obviously this was not done in one bee's lifetime but a product of slowly occurring natural selection.
the melipona bee and vanilla plant may have co-evolved along with other bee varieties however those vanilla plants that grew with larger septums which favoured melipona bees had a better chance for survival. throught millenia natural selection continued to take effect, until reaching the optimal stage where all vanilla plants flowered with large obstructive septums that only the melipona could bypass.
hard to explain but makes for more sense when you consider the facts don't you think?
It has been argued that the small, simple, everyday examples of evolution do not involve new information. This argument is sometimes correct. For example, the famous black moths did not contain new genetic information.
In order to make room for new information, there have to be types of mutation which make a genome larger. It turns out that several kinds of mutation do this, notably duplication and polyploidy.
How?
Just a hypothetical scenario:
If you were a party involved in a trial, would it be ok if your opponent got all the time they wanted to present their case but you got 10 seconds? Would it be ok with you if they could call any witness they wanted but you could not cross-examine them? Would it be ok with you if the jury was told to put in ear plugs while you were presenting your defense? Would you be angry and outraged at being denied justice and fairness? If so, why?
Probably developed this codependency and it wasnt there from the beginning.
lol this is dumb. The bee has something called antennae which allows it to catch the scent of food, such as pollen. When the vanilla plant grows and buds flowers the bees catch the scent and land to get their food. In the process they pollinate the flower. The bees were not meant for the flower alone, they pollinate hundreds of different flowers daily!
Maybe other bees did pollinate it here and there. But if mainly one kind of bee finds it more attractive than other kinds of bees (which is what we observe), then we could have the same result. There were probably a hundred species of orchid that went extinct for every one that survived. Of course the numbers will seem unlikely, because they are. Every living thing is the survivor of many similar, now extinct species. How do YOU think these two interrelated organisms came to be?
Another area of research involves polyploidy. Through the process of polyploidy, the total number of chromosomes can double, or a single chromosome can duplicate itself. This process is fairly common in plants, and explains why some plants can have as many as 100 chromosomes.
@onewaytoprovegod (that doesn't mean you can't change, because you'll probably be able to if you make the effort. if you're experiencing actual psychotic symptoms, i suggest you go see a doctor first.)
Evolution works over long periods of time, making it difficult to observe in any measurable quantity. (You wouldn't say natural star formation doesn't occur just because we've never observed it happening would you?) We have observed lots of evolution however. All breeds of dogs descended from wolves, that's quite a change, much more than minute. Also the fossil record is full of examples of slow changes over time from one species to another.
Do you think he got a commission to say the word BEE as many times as he could?
Is he saying the bees go to the flower so WE can get the bean? Hilarious. I'm sure that's EXACTLY why they do what they do.
It's called Coevolution just like Leehofooks says. It's pretty simple actually.
I also loved how at the end he couldn't seem to end a sentence :P
I dont understand the title of this video....
my bad for the late response;
That evolution supposedly works over an insane amt of time implies its not observable and cant be demonstrated, making it unscientific. (based on the defnition of science).
cont.
I wonder why no one has harvested the bee in Madagascar?
Most of the vanilla sold around the world comes from Madagascar where the vanilla is pollinated by hand. Vanilla is not native to Madagascar..nor is the melipona bee.. Most of the pollination is done by women. That is the reason vanilla is so expensive...all hand work during a small window of opportunity
Which came first....vanilla or the bee? :)
pushes it up and goes in... to drink the nectar
2008 video is trending now??
Of what I know, the conditions of the primordeal soup are not replicated here on earth right now. After all, if another primordeal was somehow created, and after millions of years a simple bacterium was formed in it, more advanced bacteria or protists would just eat it. It's not likely new life will form, but just evolve.
You might be wondering "How can life - being so perfect - come from a concoction of materials in water?" The explanation is long, but it exists...
this guy is wrong.because the bee helps the orchid's reproduction doesn't mean they were "created" or started existing at the same time.this situation is called co-evolution...I assume that before having such a close "relationship" with the bee, the orchid might have been more generalist or had other ways to reproduce. But at some point, letting only this melipona bee polinate her might have given her an advantage and that's why this mode of reproduction prevailed.
Evolution has been seen in the lab. That ship has sailed, your side lost.
Man i hope weve evolved a little bit since 2008
cont... Finally, antibiotic resistance in bacteria wasn't there before antibiotics, it didn't just change in frequency, it evolved that feature. The same way that another bacteria evolved the ability to metabolize nylon (the so-called nylon bug)
I agree.
You split a hive with queen or a closed cell on it and transfer them to another hive.
Here's a simple scenario: other flowers with such crippling features evolved and died out, the vanilla flower only managed to survive because of the bee. That's not too hard to understand, is it?
@globi54
no, he understands it perfectly.
what? the flower was normal, but he wilted ones probably taste better to the bees, so now there all wilted, because they were the only ones they pollinated. that's um theory
my*
Co-evolution explains this much better. The orchid did not always have a meliponas-only lid. The evolutionary advantage of the key/lock mechanism is that pollen is FOOD for New World bees, and the orchid would be wasting effort if it fed random insects. Old World bees evolved for nectar instead. What a creation story fails to explain is-- why no meliponas and no vanilla orchids in Germany or China? If it was all made at once, why no vanilla in the Holy Land?
how does scientist track back millins of yrs ago?
Bug:
I appreciate your comments. When you say that it is true that we don't really know anything, aren't you saying that you do "know" something? It sounds like a statement of the knowledge of at least one truth. I don't think that you really believe we don't/can't know anything. Wouldn't you agree that abusing children is wrong? I think that's a truth we can know.
Take care Bug!
Bug,
You seem pretty sharp to me, don't dismiss yourself because of age.
very easy to answer
it isnt the strongest or fastest or otherwise "best" organism that survives. its the organism that is adaptet best to its environment
mamuths got extinct for beeing too big (needs much food) and having too many predators while the penguin is still allive because it is idealy suited for life in cold areas and fishing.
sorry for my bad english
This guy has no clue how evolution works. It's easy to imagine a vanilla orchid ancestor that had a different way of pollinating and which evolved to be pollinated by these bees gradually.
@villontre
more accurate, there are a lot of people that are grossly misinformed about how evolution works, and hold a lot of misconceptions.
Perhaps the orchid did not always need the bee, and the bee did not always need the orchid. Once they found eachother, they evolved in parallel, and became more specific to each other. Certainly this is a more reasonable (and scientific) explanation than "Zeus made it that way".
There are whole 10-minute videos explaining it. It's all about self-replicating amino acids and how diffusion allows the little floating lipids to eat other little floating lipids. So, the fist "life form" was pretty simple. So simple it's hardly considered life.
Complexity just developed overtime. Remeber, several billion years is a long time! A lot can happen.
Gravity has a theory too.Evolution is a fact.The" theory of evolution by natural selection"is an explanation of the how it works.Gravity is a fact."Gravitational theory" is an explanation of the how it works.
the best case for stingless bees is the modified Brazilian model INPA !!!!
its an ORCHID!? wow i m eating orchid seed extract i frozen cream now.
You can call things blueprints and schematics if you want, and outside of these types of conversations these metaphors are fine and seem harmless, but to really prove code or function or schematics you would need to prove that there was a desired outcome in the first place, you need to prove intention and the success of that intention. You do not have this.
Otherwise one could claim that a tree is the schematic for the shadow it casts on the ground. But this is just a naturally occurring thing.
No, bees and flowers can't speak on account of they don't have vocal chords or the cognitive capacity for language. and what does "reverse evolution" mean?
However, if a bee sees something attractive about a flower, it's more likely to fly over, and if he polloinates it in the process (unintentionally), then the genes of that flower will pass on, as opposed to the unattractive flower. This process repeating over several millenia will produce a flower with very specific "bee attracting" traits.
It's a great article about how code is like a symbol representing something, something other that what the thing itself is. Like these words on the screen are just pixels, they don't do much on their own, but the shapes represent things that we 'understand' and interpret. DNA has chemical properties, it cannot not just arbitrarily represent something that is later interpreted. Why can't you understand this or have a valid argument instead of just denying it after admitting not to reading it all?
If the bee had existed first, there would be no reason for the flower to evolve a different more difficult method of pollination. In this scenario, the bees would not have the experience to pollinate the orchid just like the rest of the insects. As for the bees just happening upon it and discovering it, why have no other insects done so? Or, more importantly, why didn't the european bees learn how to pollinate the orchid within 300 years?
@WarriorPoetJosiah because i'm just that awesome! (you don't need reasons to do things. you need reasons not to do them.)
What if we're all wrong?
Mr. Slag,
Do you think that a hospital for the care of genetically diseased or cancerous, terminally ill children should exist? Should resources, time, money, manpower, medicine, etc. be expended for thier care? Or, should these children be eliminated from society as quickly as possible?
Please PRONOUNCE.. MELIPONA- Meli-Pona
Yes, different chemical reactions cause different proteins to be built, very true. You are not able to understand that chemistry is not code, are you?
lol "Hernando Cortez" XD I believe you mean Hernan Cortez. besides the bee evolved long before the flower so they weren't "made for each other" the flower evolved so that the bee would be the only thing that could get to its nectar. This video SUPPORTS evolution rather than refuting it.
We see it every day. Things (material) exists instead of not existing. Material is not capable of creating itself especially when it does not exist.
cont.. Have you heard of ring species? 2 organisms living close to each other can interbreed, but when you get far enough apart they no longer can. Clearly they all shared a common ancestor, yet they can no longer interbreed. Examples of transitional fossils also exist throughout the fossil record. A complete record of ape to man, land mammal to whale, fish to amphibian, dinosaur to bird, and more exist. cont...
Code requires either something being translated, or proof of a coder in the first place. This is not made up, it's just logic.
Both are accidents understand.
Yeah, they would have to be made together. But they weren't made, they grew or 'evolved'. You know what evolution is right?
Co-evolved, co-evolution
It's always funny when creationists think they have found something that "defies evolution" when said thing is a textbook example of a certain principle in evolutionary theory. In this case coevolution
oh sorry mate....wasn't sure since you responded to HelenFlame....anyways I think I summarised everything I think about that sort of ppl.
No, 74 people understand the process of evolution and how it works, unlike the makers of this video. 74 people understand the process of co-evolution, because they have actually studied it. 74 people have studied the evidence for evolution, and understand that the evidence for evolution is overwhelming
My challenge to you is to have a valid response to that article. You can't. You will just deny it. It's what creationists do, cherry pick which bits of science you believe.
Right at 1:45
BTW, a truly poetic exploration you'll want to see is " Wonders of Life: What is Life?" , here: www.dailymotion.com/video/xyktff_wonders-of-life-what-is-life_tech
Fascinating video, but even more fascinating is the willful ignorance in some of the comments, insisting that evolution produced this & multitudes of other symbiotic relationships in nature...but they don't explain how.
The Bible uses the term "holy" which means altogether separate and transcendent to creation. Think of it like a painter to his painting. He conceived of the painting, it represents some aspects and attributes of his mind and thought, but he is not the painting itself. The painting could burn but the painter would still be complete in himself.