In the last couple of years many people started building their own home or container homes on UA-cam and they always use spray foam through a company. I told my wife I don't understand why don't they use foam board much more better and you can do it yourself. Good job you guys!
I own a spray foam company and you are correct on 1 thing, it is expensive. I am at 2.00 per sq/ft per inch. However you are wrong on the R value, almost all closed cell foams are at least 7 per inch. Another thing, it is almost impossible to apply incorrectly, at least with my equipment. If you are off ratio, the machine shuts down until you fix it, so the off gassing isn't an issue. It can happen, but very rare. And as far as the leaks, if sprayed directly to the tin, the water will not sit between the tin and foam. I do agree with the price of spray foam now, the foam board is a good option, but you do lose the seal and the strength added from the foam. Not bashing on you, but just pointing out some misconceptions.
@@G.A.N.G101 I am being told that it is one of the chemicals that has to be shipped from China, although there always seems to be a reason to keep the prices high, so take that for what it is worth. My cost has doubled on the product. Now I also do polyjacking of concrete with foam that is manufactured in USA and that price has only gone up about 15%, so I want to believe they are telling me the truth. Of course the shipping has almost doubled, but that can be expected.
He’s just trying to justify his decision to go foam board. He doesn’t mention the fact he is potentially trapping moisture behind the board which you don’t do with the spray foam.
I also had a spray foam guy do an estimate of my shop space. I have a vapor barrier on the outside before I put the metal on. He gave me an estimate that was very high and an even number like 12 thousand no other dollars. The other thing he was going to do was fill my soffit and ridge vent with that foam, so I would not have any air flow out of my shop. I am in the south and we need air flow for high humidity. I also used the panels which were about half the price of spay foam. I pained the pink with exterior house paint. It took no time at all to roll out before putting up the panels. Its been two years and the paint still looks great. I also used long deck screws with washer to hold it in place, just snugging up the washer against the panel. I also left a space in the between the rafters for air flow to the ridge. I used a firing strip of 2x to give it the space, my top plate of the rafter is 2x6 so I have room for a panel. Looks more finished and clean and no mess and now I have open trusses to look at instead of a sea of yellow spray foam at different levels. Much cheaper and If I have a problem with my metal roof I can fix it. Spray foam is over ratted in my book and looks nasty on a finished garage. I also put it up myself with a roll around platform and taking my time.
For consideration: two 1.5" layers would allow you to butt the sheets tight, and then simply offset the joints between the two layers so that heat doesn't have a path through the layers.
@@G.A.N.G101 The improved insulating value would justify it. Two layers with overlapping seams is a real standard thing with foam sheets. This is fairly established tech.
Good idea but is it really any better. With spray foam you are getting more vapor barrier seal and some places call for that. The 1.5" has to be installed twice and might be the same R value per inch. I think this would come down to where you live, cost of material, cost of labor, and actual R value for future savings. 1.5" could be taped on one layer for more vapor sealing too.
@@spf-92.5 It's almost certainly the same R / inch. But I think 1.5" is a pretty standard (eg, Home Depot) choice, with consumer DIY pricing. In some areas, 3" is a specialty item, special shipment (measure twice!). The problem with the gaps is that it allows a flanking pathway for the heat. Heat will flow more quickly to the lowest insulation value area. I don't get involved much in building surface specifications ("just the R value, ma'am"), but I notice that especially on roofs, the practice is multiple, non-aligned, layers. It's the same with acoustics (an area more familiar): pinholes allow flanking pathways for the energy, and negate the barrier effect.
@@petem6503 correct, with a flush installation, you would only need to caulk the outer gaps, but you might still want to do the inner seams. It's a "half pinhole" instead of a full, at the inner seams.
Great video, I’m a 61 year old woman, and I’m also using the same foam board myself doing my 30x 50 pole barn same method. Haven’t started my ceiling yet so looking forward to your next video on helpful hits- things you would have done different. 👍🏻 maybe I can do it without too much pain 🤣 thanks guys ❤
Put a lid in it and just blow the ceiling with cellulose. Spray foam for the walls would be a much better system than sheet foam. I hope it works out for you.
A Farmer here in Upatate NY reversed this process on a pole barn. He placed 2--3" boards taping the seams and over lapping the butt joints. He used screws with a plastic flat cap on them to attach it to the 2x4 stringers. He did the roof...the whole building outside and taped the joints. On the roof he used ice shield adhered to the top layer.....Then placed 2x4 treated diagonally across the whole roof screwed through the 2x4 and foam board directly into truss with Loooong screws. After he attached his metal roof. This pole barn is tight. Later about 3-4yrs he put rock wool insulatiin on the inside. Bugs and varmints hate and won't nest in it. He heats his pole barn with a used oil burner. It's his wood work shopped it is huge.
Its always heart warming to see a loving couple working on a project together LOL, great work guys looks great and I am sure it will be nice and warm in there
One benefit to consider about closed cell spray foam, that I didn't see mentioned, is the fact that the spray foams tensile strength that can enhance the overall structural support of your tin building.... As far as insulating your ceiling you could use an open cell if you're worried about leaks... that will allow moisture to pass through. As far as off ratio foam if you hire a reputable spray foam company with trained experienced installers and modern reactors it is usually not a factor. All that said, nice job on the garage. Rigid board and some time spent will definitely save you money.
I bought 2 rubbermaid 7x7 sheds and lined the inside with the 2" r10 foamular foam pannels. Works very well! I sleep in one and a kitchen is set up in the other. I live out in the country.... Beats paying nearly $1300 in rent every month!
Cover in aluminum foil using rubber cement($15/gallon will do entire job). Roll it on. Cheap and MUCH warmer and lighter inside. Besides exposed poly board is a gargantuan fire hazard.
@@w8stral thanks for the info. I had the smarts to keep lights away from it because of that potential but hearing someone else say it makes me even more cautious....
@@DL101ca Technically you are right, the thinner will eat a bit of the foam, but evaporates near instantly while you wait for the glue to get tacky and then you apply the surface. "gassing" for a long time... yea a couple hours is "long time"... Give you a hint ALL of your countertops are put on with said "horribly outgassing" rubber cement family of products. If you have veneered refrigerators etc... same thing. Linoleum floor, same thing. That being said, sure, cut out plastics wherever you can do so.. I suggest you start at your carpet/paint/wood sealer before whining/bitching about rubber cement. And this application is in a garage...
I did the same in a much smaller shop. The original walls were rock foundation. Put foam board to make a seal (and make things flat) then put my framing in front of that, followed by drywall. One tip - I couldn't tell if you had one, but they make metal foam applicator guns. These screw onto the tops of most of the foam cans and give you really precise trigger control. When you're done, turn a knob to close it off, and you don't have to worry about the foam in the nozzle hardening.
@@demodemo9698 Yes, it's a great approach. Keep in mind that my setup is foam against rock and cinder block, and this video is against metal. If you're going up against wood, many recommend some form of vapor barrier. You do lose space - 7" on each wall (3" to foam, 3.5" from the 2x4, then your drywall is 1/2". If you want to preserve some space, maybe 1.5" foam against the wall, then fill the cavities with 3" foam. This only consumes 5.5", but you have to a lot more cutting and finagling around wires or outlets.
@@yourtechjohn Ok good to know. Thx. I think I’m following you. I have a detached garage ( no drywall, just studs) I was thinking about the pink foam these guys used and fill in tight spots (outlets, etc ) with the canned foam that expands. Don’t know anything about being handy. Does that sound about right ?
@@yourtechjohn you dont lose any space from 2x4.... the foam is in between them ... this is no different them putting insulation in a house wall and then closing with drywall if you do that
@@cyriseye Yes, that's another way to do it. If you cut foam board to fit between the 2x4 studs, you won't lose any horizontal space. However, your framing will be in contact with the non-insulated wall. A house or garage with vinyl siding usually has a layer of insulation between the sheathing and the siding. Like I said, I put the foam board in first against the rock wall (much like the ones in the video did against the metal). Then I built my 2x4 framing up against that. This gave me a flat, fully insulated surface with no gaps in the insulation. I didn't want my 2x4 framing to be against the non-insulated block and rock walls. This also gave me a lot more freedom for running wires through the studs before attaching drywall. I also used spray foam every other stud to isolate "pockets" of air.
Spray foam is the way I went, then framed walls off the purlins & installed 3/4" birch plywood. super insulated and sound proofed. Did use the foam 1-1/2" board for the shop doors and works great! The 8" of dead air space creates a great barrier!
With the price of spray foam going thru the roof lately , foam board is a decent option. You do not get the structural benefits of spray foam though. That stuff makes for a solid building since it adheres to the metal and creates a solid panel between the studs. It totally transforms being inside a metal building also as it deadens the tinny sound of the metal whenever the wind blows or you shut a door. As for getting a water leak in the roof and not knowing about it with spray foam , I always suggest only using the dome head metal screws that cover and protect the rubber washer from sun damage . You'll never have a leak if you don't strip one out while installing them .
As long as said board is in a building NOT attached to where you live. That stuff is a fire death trap waiting to happen. It is in effect gasoline attached to your wall. Cheap, but gargantuan fire hazard.
@@w8stral Yeah , that is one down side but I don't have any real experience with the flammability of the foam boards. Spray foam on the other hand will only burn when there is a constant flame. It extinguishes itself as soon as the flame is removed while the wood framing in your house is nothing but fuel for a fire , LOL .
@@rydfree Matt Risinger has a good video explaining the dangers of closed cell foam and fire. The concern is smoke, not flame. If you use closed cell foam and do not cover it (i.e drywall), there are a couple of spray products that get sprayed on the foam that essentially eliminate the foam's ability to burn. So, foam does easily burn and smoke; but there are methods to mitigate it.
@@infiniteyep5224 Matt is all that rehearsed in spray foam, though he tries. I've been in the spray foam industry for 14 years. It does burn when you get it hot enough, everything will, but it has to meet fire code rating of 1 for inside of a structure which is better than wood products. Its has fire retardants in it for safety but is still require by most codes to be cover in a occupied space. If you are leaving it exposed you need to install an intumescent coating over it(in an occupied space), which goes on like thick paint and creates a 15 minute thermal barrior and doesn't smoke.
I built an addition 4 or 5 years ago and used a similar system. I framed 2x6 exterior walls clad with 1“ aluminum faced polyiso foam boards. Then I cut 2“ closed cell pink foam boards to fit in the stud bays. I cut them a little lose and then used great stuff to seal them in. I went through a lot of cans but it was pretty cheap and easy to do. I used a similar hand saw as you did to cut the boards. The 2“ boards left enough room to get electrical lines through the studs in front of the foam boards (I drilled the holes first and put them just in front of the boards). I then filled the remaining space with mineral wool bats sized for 2x4 walls. The result is a great insulation value, good air tightness, and good sound insulation at a very reasonable price. Also, the rock wool is fire proof, so the flammable foam is well protected from the inside (and outside had cement board siding). It took a while to do but my labor was free. Spray foam would have been a lot more expensive even back then. I think the 2“ boards were about $25 and Home Depot had a volume discount that brought the price down even more. The spray cans came from a sale at Menards for less than $3 for a tall can. I think I used about 25 boards a similar number of cans. I could have gotten used 3“ foam boards from a flat roof someone was selling for about $15 a piece but that wouldn’t have worked for my situation, and nobody had used 2“ boards available at the time. You can find these used roofing insulation boards on FB marketplace frequently.
Very neat and clean job! I had the spray foam done in my 7200 sq ft pole barn! They put 12 inches in the ceiling and 8 inches in the walls! They really did a great job, and was told if I used his product, I wouldn't need either heat or A/C! As it turns out he was correct! In the summer the temp never got above 85 and in the winter never below 60, just so long as I kept the doors closed as much as possible! He did recommend that I run dehumidifiers which really do the trick! After 4 years with neither heat or air, I decided to try the Mr Cool A/C, heat pump, just to take the edge off the highs and lows, and maintain a more even controlled atmosphere! In just a few words, it was definitely worth the additional cost!
@cheating gravity If you attempt to lay down 12 inches all at once, you will. However, if you lay 2 inches at one time and allow it to cure, you won't have gassing issues.
Great video. Here’s a HUGE tip that can save a lot of money: Chicken houses. They are often disassembled and the materials sold for pennies on the dollar. I’ve got a few hundred dollars in enough foamboard to do my entire shop. It’s not perfect, but after finishing it all out and painting… you’d never know. 👍
A few other had mentioned this tip as well. Use a tape on all the joints. Test it first on the foam, but a butyl aluminum tape would last forever. Same tape that is used to seal around windows & doors during the rough in. Plastic tape can get old and crack.
My wife and I are in the last phases of a Barndominium build, metal building, 'red iron' steel structure. Half interior house and half large garage. We opted for the fiberglass with vinyl backing, 6" thickness, and then we did 2x4 framing for the interior and added additional 4" of fiberglass, so we have 10" of insulation with a 2" air gap between the metal building insulation and the interior framing insulation. 14" of fiberglass for the ceiling. All the fiberglass insulation plus wood framing was cheaper than the cost of just spray foam. I know, the air sealing isn't as good, but hopefully with diligent construction and the air gap we have a pretty good wall system.
Why not use an insulation made for metal buildings like Prodex? Vapor barrier, heat deflector and insulator w/R22. I had my metal building installers put it on at the time of installation so it's between the studs and the metal skin (sides and roof). Tape the overlapping seams on the inside and good to go! The insulation is made with a specific overlap so no need to create your own. 700 SF building with 9 ft walls, 3/12 pitch was $2K in materials with shipping, tax and included double sided tape to adhere to the framing.
I am a post frame (they are calling it a metal building) builder. I agree with you about the value of wrapping the insulation on the outside of the frame. Be advised, Prodex outright lies about the R value. It passes me off because they have a good product, so there is no reason to grossly exaggerate the R value. The cool thing about the radient barrier and the benefits of wrapping it outside of the frame is that the owner can still add another layer of insulation just like these guys did if needed. Some commentors point out that these guys might get mold growing against the metal, but if they had the vapor barrier like you installed (especially and only if taped air tight), they have virtually no risk of moisture problems like mold.
You realize it’s not actually R22. There is litigation against Prodex for falsely advertising the R value of their products. In your application, compressed between the skin and framework, you are only creating a slight block to thermal bridging. Your R value is around 1.1-2
Two things and you probably cover it in the next video. #1 your R-value is for cooling. The R-value is rated at 70 degrees so you aren't getting that at 30 degrees. This is why I use fiberglass in 6 inch walls then 2 inch as a vapor barrier. Get the best of both. #2 when filling in the cracks over head the spray foam is really sticky when it gets on you but doesn't stick at all in the crack. So it usually falls into your hair and really sticks! Answer: use masking tape over the crack then run the tube under one side of the tape. That will hold the foam as it expands.
For the R-value, you're wrong. You are speaking of PolyISO, which the R-value falls with temperature. For this XPS foam, the R-value actually INCREASES with a drop in temperature! At 75f the R-value is 5 per inch. At 15f, the R-value is 6 per inch!
Cut the foam roughly 1 in less than the opening all around. Put the piece in then use small leftover pieces of foam to wedge between the sides to hold the foam in place. Then spray foam around all the edges. The little bit wider gap makes it easier and faster for foaming. I've been using this method in remodeling basements bathrooms bedrooms you name it for many years now. It's great for small jobs because you get the advantage of spray foam, R-value and sealing, without calling in a truck.
Nice work! I used foam sheets and spray foam in my cracks as well and after I was all done I kept hearing loud snaps and cracks. It was the building moving causing the spray foam to "crack" and separate from the foam sheets creating air gaps. If you want an air tight seal it's probably best to tape the gaps as well.
Sometimes when metal panels are fastened with screws on top of the ribs when expand and contract happens the screw thread is popn on the panels. Creating over time orbited holes and leaks. With what i call pole barn panels or century drain/wheeling steel always fasten in the flats. We get lots of snow around here and most people put them on top of the ribs and if it is to ice up the fastners have very little shear strength so they shear off and tear up lite guage panels...
@@charleswalters5284 The flats of the metal sheet next to what is called the corrugation. When people put the screws through the top of the corrugation that screw head with the neoprene washer 29 guage panel then 3/4 air then it penetrates the roof deck.... screw the sheet in the flat so its not orbiting that hump through expansion contraction. Them roof screws have very little shear strength. If ice slids down and the sheets are fastened theough that hi part it will pop the heads off E z Lee or even tear up the Rib/corrugation.
@@peterparker9286 I have never seen screws on ribs except on flashings or the odd spot on a rib that's flaring. That's weird doing a whole sheet on the ribs. And had a 14x16 overhead door spring assembly bracket let go because the installers used those 1/4" tin screws to fasten it. Did some damage to the ceiling and wall unwinding when it let go, but luckily did so when the door was down and no one around. They aren't a lag bolt for sure
I love the way you guys insult each other. The ladies in my life would say "oh that's not nice, they shouldn't talk to each other that way." I see it as a sign of respect and working together. If you don't like someone, you would generally not rib them like that. I liked your idea and technique.
Spray foam adds lots of structural rigidity. This can be a good thing for a garage like that where you don’t have thick sheathing. However also a downside is it’s a pain or near impossible to make repairs or changes. I like putting foam on the exterior (property braced) then furring strips. Greatstuff pro cans to fill gaps to air seal then on top of that put rock-wool. Adding foam panels then greatstuff around them in wall cavity is fine too if you don’t have foam on the exterior and want to air seal. XPS foam is best…EPS is not air or water proof, but that might be what you want in some installs. Poly/closed spray foam off gasses and R value drops with age. I wouldn’t touch a house with spray foam especially in the roof…could be fine or could be hiding rot. For roofs, the best setup is to have a baffle air gap under the sheathing to let water leaks or condensation to dry out…if you have to do cathedral ceiling without room for air gap, you should use fluffy insulation because it will still let the top dry…never use spray foam in sealed cathedral ceiling, especially low slopped.
@@KingKongbabe If you spray closed cell foam the underside of cathedral ceiling, the sheathing and structural lumber becomes trapped, preventing it from drying out. Depending on the season and assuming the interior is air conditioned, moisture will build up on the top or bottom. When cold and warm air meets, you get condensation (water turns from a gas to a liquid). To combat that you need the other way around to dry out. Putting foam in cathedral ceiling makes it difficult on both sides. If perfectly executed, it can work…but not forever because we all know nothing is perfect.
Here in PA I also used 2" foam board for my 30x48 pole barn. Back when I did it 20 years ago it was $23 a sheet x's 60 sheets and they didn't have 3". I actually used small fender washers under the drywall screws to secure it to the purlins. Looked fine all painted white. Still holding up like the day it was installed. I used a power saw (blade turned backwards) on most of my cuts. Mess wasn't an issue in this application. I actually cut and fit 3/8" drywall (lighter weight wise) in between the ceiling trusses over the foam board. Again, I used the drywall screw with fender washer to hold it up. Having no solid back the screws will just pull through. I did have a mobile platform I made to hold each sheet of drywall. That mounted to my mobile car lift, so it was fairly easy. I was a bit younger then though so I'm glad it's done.
I had the exact same experience with my 50 x 32 Quonset Hut Workshop. Spray foam was going to be $27,000 because the company insisted it had to be sprayed with an intumescent paint after the 2" of foam was applied a strange requirement for Maine ? Anyway i went to the local Home Depot ordered a few hundred sheets of 1" ( to enable it to curve around the curved walls in two layers) a few dozen sheets of 2" and spent a few weeks attaching sheets to the frame i built. Looks way better than lumpy old spray foam. The bottom 8 feet all around i covered with Luan ply to make things attach more easily . I did get given a unique spray gun that you attach a can of Home Depot spray foam and then you can actually spray the joints to seal the surface before you apply the sheet foam, worked like a dream. Total cost $4500.. and a very sore back 🤧
Since you have extra, add a layer of 3" to the doors. Cut the joints back to 30°, to allow for hinge movement. Also, add all your current channels to each channel & mention each channel in each video.
I built my own shop, and I built it out of concrete blocks. Blocks are maintenance free and don't require insulation since they are hollow. Blocks are rot proof, bug proof and great at sound proofing. I used 1/4" OSB for the ceiling and blew in some cellulose insulation overhead. It is very easy to heat and cool.
A trick that would have saved your knees that I learned when doing sheetrock. Put the first sheet up high like you did. Then put the second sheet down to the floor, this will leave a gap between the two sheets. Then fill the gap at chest level, saves you from having to crawl around on the floor.
In the UK, insurance companies are not willing to insure or as part of a home purchase allow spray foam usage. The main issue being that it's not possible to see what condition timber roof is in, root, and other factors can be hidden - also subsequent water damage can not be seen. Most if not all the time rigid foam as you show is used alongside other insulation types. Also, you might want to investigate a stick on soft foam edge use during insulation, it avoids spray foam being used as a sealer - which is messy and somewhat permanent.
I think this "issue" is a silly one. If you finish the space, no one questions the condition. If you're standing there looking at finished walls instead of the roof, that's fine. If you're standing there looking at spray foam, now they "can't inspect." It's nonsense. Most definitely more of a political/manufactured "issue" than a real issue. If you finish the space, they also won't care what insulation is under it, and assume it's all done properly, even if it's all spray foam. It's so stupid.
Great video and it answers the spray vs board cost question for me. Thanks. I also see the missing Egyptian sarcophagus that everyone has been looking for.
I started doing electrical work way back in the late 1970s. The very first time I watched a man spray foam a ruuf, I told him that was just wrong. I mentioned the same things you did. I enjoyed the videos.
I am a plumber here in Middle Tennessee and I have noticed over the last 10 years that spray foam when it is wet before it dries it has a chemical reaction to PEX piping. It damages the pipe as soon as it but once it is dry doesn't seem to do as much harm. Our inspectors around here at 1 spray foam and every one of the drilled holes through would that it comes through which is cause damage to the pipe. Just something to think about if you have any plumbing out and your steel buildings.
@@schwartzmatthewe foam is air tight, rock wool is not. If insulated value is all you are after rock wool is great but the air barrier of foam is better.
There is some debate to this. I feel it depends on the type of spray foam being used. I think some of your two part foams that don't get mixed well (potentially) could have some impact, but your common hole sealing products such your canned spray foam seems to be completely safe and specifically says it is safe on Pex.
@@JimYeats tell that to the thousands of homeowners that have to rip their sheetrock out in order to fix leaks exactly where the foam has been touching their pipes.
@@toddlenard7602 But you understand the problem with that sort of logic right? Regardless of the validity of your claim of "thousands" of people who have leaks in their pex -unequivocally (?) - due to spray foam (pex and pipes in holes or penetrations are ALWAYS at higher risk for leaking due to friction and expansion and contraction against surfaces if they aren't properly protected) there are - without question - millions upon millions of homes built with spray foam insulation, either used as the main form of insulation, or, used as penetration sealers. So, you are trying to make the argument that because .001% of people with Pex have a leak at or near where spray foam is touching or rubbing against it as evidence that spray foam is not compatible with Pex is illogical and doesn't hold merit. Which is why it continues to be used with pex in the estimated 1.5 million homes built each year (not that every one of those homes uses pex, but a large portion do)
Spray foam does not even need a leak for damage to be caused. Just simple condensation can cause a huge problem. Have you fellas thought of adding some of that A2A bubble wrap-type foil insulation under the interior finish as well? I'm understand that it provides an extra R-12-ish. Cheers from Alberta, Canada.
Have you thought about adding a fire 🔥 barrier? Sheetrock would be a good option or even plywood is better than having exposed foam. I would run a bunch of 20 Amp outlets and maybe a 30 - 50 amp 240v outlet on each wall. Maybe some outlets in the ceiling would be nice for pull down reels etc. I would add a bunch of 4' led lights on the ceiling as well. Have them wired in pairs so you dont need to have them all on at the same time. A generator hookup would be pretty sweet as well. Also you definitely need a heat shield behind the wood stove...
Yes, both spray-on and these foam boards are flammable. I suppose you put a 1x4 PT board along the bottom to keep the sheet rock off the floors, then use construction adhesive, or do you recommend the spray foam as the adhesive?
I live in south Louisiana and our metal buildings condensate when our lovely humidity is raging. It seems to me that a thin vapor/ radiant barrier with a 1/2” air gap on both sides is needed ibetween the exterior and the foam board. (Not bubble wrap, just the paper one). My experience as a owner of a HVAC company tells me that placing the foam board against the metal will definitely cause problems. A air gap is crucial and yes, time consuming. I did my shop like that and am glad it’s over with
Yes through the thermal cycles and humidity some pole barns rain inside. Polystyrene foam being closed cell cant let moisture through. U did good with a gap between because eventually it touching is going to rot out the metal from the inside out. I would never put this on a roof like some do. I have seen rotted roof decks because of this stuff...
That's what I was thinking and was reading the comments to see if anyone else thought the same. I think using a few 1/2" + strips that air can circulate thru and hold the foam off the metal, or some L brackets at each end etc... basically anything to keep an air gap btwn the outer sheet metal and the foam would suffice?
what about for a residential home - we are going to have a metal standing seam roof that requires the metal to be installed directly to the sheathing which will be plywood & then topped with synthetic over it. Builder and insulation guy both recommended open cell foam on underside of roof decking. I want to use Rockwool in my exterior walls but that may be an issue with it being in short supply so not sure what to do about that but also the roofer didn't see an issue with the open cell foam and they all said they have not seen humidity issues because I drilled them all on it. Only thing the insulation guy did say is that he did acknowledge the issue of termite pest companies not warrantying or even treating homes with spray foam. He doesn't undestand why and says a lot of insulation companies are looking to start doing termite treatments with warranties to get around that.
@@bellaherna1 so what I did in my shop and home attics was this. From where the roof starts rising away from the exterior wall, I ran 1 x 4 strips of wood horizontally, every two feet all the way up to the collar bracing. I then used reflective bubble wrap, which comes on a 4’ x 100’ roll, and unrolled it horizontally, so if you’re house is 50’ long cut a piece 50’, shoving it down to the soffit and stapling it to the wood strips. That’s why they are every two feet. Then keep repeating all the way up to the collar bracing and continue across the bottom of Basically air comes in front the soffit area, travels between the roof and bubble wrap up to the center of the attic. It is at this place on the roof where I have two ( on mine ) solar powered ventilators. What this does is keep air moving under the decking and shingles reducing the heat buildup while also preventing it from heating up the attic. Taping the joints on the bubble wrap is fairly important. This also prevents your air conditioned air inside from being sucked up into the attic. Everything about this method is very good. The downside is that I did mine by myself and it seemed to take a lot longer. It is time consuming, but you only have to do it once for the life of the home. The wood strips are crucial!! This is what allows the air/heat transfer from all rafters equally. Since I work in attics every day, I believe that you can’t have too many soffit vents. The cooler your attic the lower your bills will be. It sounds difficult to explain it but it really is not hard or complicated to do at all. Feel free to contact me if you have any questions…. Side note- I’m not sure if this is why, but I seem to get less cell reception now with the reflective bubble wrap, strange!!
@@kirkhernandez1165thank you for your reply. I don’t really understand it but appreciate it 😊. So unless I am confused it doesn’t sound like you have a conditioned attic. Ours will be unvented/conditioned. We will also have a dehumidifier.
I contracted closed cell spray foam on my 40x60 barn. Gables and ceiling (open truss) was sprayed with 2 inch closed cell. I had them spray 1.5 inch on the walls. They also painted the ceiling with fire retardant spray. They also painted the trusses flat black to match the ceiling. Total price was $15,000. It is awesome. I do have a HVAC system but only use it 1-2 hours a day when I’m working out, playing pool or watching games. I plan on adding 2 x EG-4 DIY solar minisplits. These would run off solar only but have the option to draw power from the grid when desired. I would let them run nonstop during the day from sun power. To save electricity I heat it with a fireplace in the Tennessee winter. I get the temp almost 70 degrees on cold days. Here is a huge advantage I found with spray foam. I run one 100 pint Dehumidifier with pump I bought from Lowes. It keeps the humidity around 50%! I suspect it can do this since the barn is sealed like a cooler. Leaks! You made a good point. However since the closed cell sprayed is painted flat black I was able to see where the roof was leaking. I would see white stains penetrating through. My son jumped on the roof and I talked him over to the spot. He found loose screws and tightened them up. I believe we found about 5-7 leaks. Great video. Thanks for sharing.
I used spray foam to float my amphibious vehicle. It floated the first day but the second day it sank. It is not really closed cell to water. Try picking up the foam filled football after it sets a day or two on the lawn during a rain storm. Good job guys. Iguana
I had the same idea some time back. Glad it worked. I was thinking to leave about an inch between sheets and let the great stuff fill it up. For cutting the sheets you can use nichrome wire .01" and a variac. It will melt right through. Good luck.
thanks for the video. seeing someone do a project like this gives me ideas to consider in the future. Another thing to consider is that wood is not a very good insulator (R 1 to 1.4 per inch) as compared to XPS (R5 per inch). If you want to maximize your insulation performance, cover the studs / barn poles with insulation. You could put the 3" over the studs, or 1.5 inch in the stud bays, and then put a second layer at a 90 degree angle over the studs. This would block any direct thermal bridging from outside to inside.
Noticed two things: 1st you used the word, "catastrophic" and following "Tim the Tool man" all those years, I don't think he ever used it and probably couldn't even spell it! 2nd it does seem like the last couple of panels, where you decided to help; were done right! (LMAO). Over all this was a pretty fair imitation of Tim Allen's iconic show and quite interesting as the panels vs the spray offers such a huge savings on installation and R-Value quality. Thanks for sharing.
You guys crack me up. Joe's the star!!! Really appreciate yall sharing. I have a friend wanting to put up a metal barn/garage. I'll probably end up building it and insulating it like this. Very cool.
The main advantages of foam are speed and sealing against air infiltration. Downside is certainly cost, especially for large projects. Otherwise, use board or batten. I used some foam kits from Menards to insulate my entire basement rim joist area in less than an hour. (the basement is 50'x24') It would have taken multiple days had I tried to do board or batting and they still would not have sealed all the cracks. Besides, I deal with a chronic illness and I was able to do it quickly. I had only two days before a crew was coming to put in a french drain so I was also under a time crunch. Do it while the walls are all clear of stuff!
I did nearly the same thing in my 30x50. I put 1-1/2" against the steel between the girts then covered the whole thing with 7/16 OSB. Then I covered that in places where there might be sparks or flame with another layer of old barn roof tin. It's only about R7 for the walls but it really cut down on the drafts. I did it over a couple years because the garage was already full and I was working by myself so I spent most of the time moving stuff out of the way.
"Three square inches Sound rule": Three square inches of gap, added up on all cracks and penetrations, is the equivalent of the wall not being there. (Of course the actual wall not being there would allow wind to pass through foolishly) Use the HVAC method of three square inches sound leaking; extend that to include hot/cold transfer, as the vapor barrier IS transfer of heat / cold equally. Ribs, poles, beams, studs are all R value leaks. Total vapor barrier, across frame supports, is the key to gaining the actual insulation benefit. Visualize a wall of water pressing against the building; where would the water squirt in ?
Also, I don't think you touched on this but I wanted my shop to be insulated. I'm 3rd owner of property and the building has been there for the last 25 years. So there is a lot of dirt and whatever else on the walls and ceiling of the workshop. So not only was I quoted about $9,000 for 1 inch of foam but I was told I needed to pull everything out of the building and power wash the walls and ceiling. That would have been quite the chore. This seems a lot simpler.
This is the first video I've seen of yours. I love the dynamic and humor. Instant subscribe. Timely, too, as I'm over here wanting to get my own shop insulated before winter.
tip for garage door: i'm in minnesota and found the metal frames of the door are a massive heat sink, sucking it out. take another layer of 1.5 (i used 2") and cover each section, including the exposed door frame structure with horizontal inso board panels. bevel the panels about 30 deg to allow for the door rolling up. it works. cover is all, cuz everything metal ,that is exposed, will conduct heat to the outside
Metalized reflective mylar will keep your heat in. I don't know why the insulation companies switched from foil faced to craft paper faced. I'm told that ridgid foam is available foil faced. Makes a huge difference in comfort and heating costs. Reflects heat back into the building.
I agree with this. It’s available in single double sided reflective. This is important for us in the Deep South because it reflects the heat back out of the attics. I call it Redneck Spray Foam
I've been kicking around the idea of a two story barndominium first floor garage/second floor living area. The spray foam insulation cost would be a significant fraction of the total building expense for such a building, which to me seems absurd. This approach is much better for the reasons you point out. Thanks for sharing the cost info up front.
I would still recommend spray foam for the living space. You will make up for that in heating and cooling costs. But I have been suggesting customers wait until foam comes down or use the foam board if it is just shop space. Spray foam is definitely better, but I ask people if they can justify the extra cost just for garage space.
What a lot of people around me are doing is doing like 1inch spray foam and then regular insulation of some type. Either foam board or fiberglass. The spray foam seals the building and then the R vale comes from the other insulation. You get the air seal and R value and not breaking the bank.
Great video, I’m having one built now 18x26x13 and having to frame everything so foam board can be installed is the extra cost. I got a price on foam for 5k. However he brings up a great point about water leaking. I also live in Florida it doesn’t snow here or at least enough to even call it that. It really sleet here if it ever happens. I’m still undecided.
I don’t think the water leaking is much of a valid point though.. if he’s sealing all the gaps between his foam boards he won’t ever notice a water leak either. So I don’t get how the foam board wins that one..
The easiest way to cut foam board is to either find a smooth blade (no teeth) for a sawsall or jigsaw, or make one out of an old dull blade. Sharpen it like a smooth bladed knife, from both sides. Make sure it's straight, and very sharp. If you know how to get a fine edge on a chisel or paring knife, you'll understand. It will cut like butter through the foam board, without leaving all those tiny foam fragments. A wider blade works better for long straight cuts, a narrow one is good if you need to cut curves.
Both products are not technically vapor barriers. Vapor retarder is what they are. Foam actually absorbs moisture in some situations. I experienced such a phenomenon.
Polystyrene is closed cell. I soso rani ant like rubber roof foam is open cell. I spelled iso... wrong. I have seen my fair share of closed cell roof foam disasters.
For cutting foam, try an electric knife (that grandma doesn't use anymorein the kitchen), or a heated wire tool just melts right through it and makes a nice clean line.
I'd be worried about that gap between the foam board and the metal siding. No matter how well you air seal from the inside you're going to get condensation in that gap from the outside. Make sure that can drain out. If you would have used zip sheathing or something similar you would have an exterior vapor barrier already and this might not be an issue
Insulating Below Grade In below-grade applications, FOAMULAR® insulation’s high resistance to water absorption makes it the only choice to protect against constant and relentless moisture threats present throughout a building’s lifecycle. Sheathing and Masonry Wall FOAMULAR® sheathing and masonry wall insulation products are highly water resistant for cavity applications. They maintain their R-value over the life of the building and provide a “continuous insulation” layer prescribed by ASHRAE 90.1
@@detroitjohn4724 when you pulled the foam board, was there any water damage/mold? i have an all steel garage with foam board for 3 years, pulled some foam board from the wall and ceiling this year and found no water damage or mold. im in northern wisconsin
@@nicklebuck Yes, the 2x4 at the bottom has water damage/ dry mold on top. This was july so I assume the sweating was in the winter. Ran down the wall and soaked into the 2 x 4. Will not happen with the Gaco closed cell "one pass" closed cell foam. 3.5" put onto the wall and painted with 20 mills of DC-315.
@@fire617781 Gaco closed cell foam is in my crawl space wall. no air can leak through. bought a building with sheets of pink foam board caulked to the wall. there was sweating in the winter that ran down and soaked into 2x4, with dried black mold. (in july) took it all off and put 3.5" of Gaco which doubled the strenth of the wall. (probably more) Zero air leaks now or in the future. sprayed with DC-315. white itumescent paint.
R factor is redundant for foam. R value is a laboratory measurement. In the real world just 2" of foam will stop 86% of heat transmission, going to 3" only ups it to 93%. Check out Spray Jones for the details on it.
I completely agree with you about spray foam, but NOT for the same reasons. What we have found with research is that spray foam eventually separates from the substrate over time, creating air leakage. If you had planned on using this foam on the OUTSIDE of this building you would not have all those thermal bridges (wood posts) and you would not have the TRAPPED MOISTURE between two impermeable materials (the foam and the steel) which is a completely different wall assembly design. SEALING TAPES do a better job of sealing between foam boards The foam is available in thicknesses as much as 6" FAR more insulation value If those bugs are carpenter ants or termites, they LOVE tunneling in foam!
Because it is a gargantuan fire hazard is why. It is literally insulating with gasoline. Must be covered. As soon as it must be covered the cost savings essentially evaporate.
Foam board is not flammable… it is however combustible. Needs a temp of 700+ degrees to ignite. I believe it’s less combustible than spray foam especially if the spray foam didn’t cure properly
@@G.A.N.G101 Spray foam depending on the foam used is slightly less combustible. They are both poly styrene based where biggest difference is the foaming agent. Poly styrene is a large chemical family and its ignition temp depends on several factors though they are all fairly the same. Once lit, it goes up like gasoline though. Why by code one must spray on a fire barrier or encase it in a fire barrier such as steel/concrete etc. Poly styrene of any form even with a fire barrier is expressly forbidden in ALL multistory commercial or multifamily apartments/condos/flats or whatever other form one wishes to use in the international building code. Too many people have died in very infamous cases. The most famous was a ~10-->15 multistory condo? building in the UK where the entire structure exterior went up in flames in less than ~7 minutes even with fire barrier on the inside and outside. They got lucky as the wind was blowing away from the lit side of the building and the people got out. Otherwise there would have a hundred dead. Like many things in life, use with care. Foam board is wonderful in the right application.
Thank you for this video. See a lot of construction sites with sprayfoam. I see no advantage in using sprayfoam other than it squeezing into tight corners and gaps. But I see huge frustrations when renovating or changes come up.
Where I am, 2" Corning foam board is $63 for a 2'x8' section! 3" is NOT available. Also, most areas' building codes require a nonflammable covering on top of the exposed foam. (that also applies to spray foam).
Thank you guys from East Canada, Atlantic Canada.🇨🇦 Your presentation helps me to point out to the drafts person, drawing up the extension, why I am not a fan and do not want to use spray foam. I had watched other youtube vids, some disasters using spray foam as well. Rock wool or rigid foam, with the Great stuff spray can to fill in the gaps...and yes, that rodent barrier....got to have those on for sure!👍 Nice sense of humour as well guys...not too over done so you are still believable. Thank you for the tips and tricks....appreciate it. 🙏☺
Instead of foam bord use bubble wrap on outside of frame and then put on outside siding this will reduce R factor a little because smashing of bubble wrap and contract point but do another layer on inside of frame and will have air cap that creates amazing R factor.
i could not agree more! I have built and remodeled homes / businesses for 33 years, "excavating" spray-foam to get access, demo or daylight framing for tie-in work is a waking nightmare and labor ex$pensive. we like "flash & batt" for the advantage of air-sealing & access or foam board mechanically attached & batt.
I have a 10' x 14' Woodshop. It ain't big but gives me a place to work nonetheless. It's one of those Arrow metal building from Lowe's with a barn top ceiling/roof. Mannn, these things are NOT water tight whatsoever. Bout a 1000 screws and every single one of them I put the most expensive sealant I could find on them and then spray foamed the cracks. Once in awhile, maybe during a very hard rain, I'll have a "drip" here and there, but it isn't much and isn't often. I want to use foam board for insulation too, but I've been waiting...I built this building (by myself) last winter, so it's been a year. I waited specifically so the building could get "seasoned" and if anything should happen, leaks etc, I could address them easier. I knew that if I put up insulation and "wall board" and it leaked, I'd probably never know WHERE it was leaking from. So, my question is...In your video, you didn't actually show "HOW to install the foam board"???? You addressed the topic of the video in one sentence basically. How is the foam board attached to the metal skin of the walls? Spray adhesive? If so, which type? Also, if so...My shop is small, I could probably get by just using actual "spray" adhesive cans...or should I use the roll on type?
Love the foam board, but it's not really suitable for wood sheathed buildings like I have. It allows condensation on the inside of the exterior sheeting, and prevents it from easily evaporating. And it's super hard to seal all the gaps, even with spray foam. What I discovered is mineral wool. It's stiffer and denser than fiberglass batt, and more fireproof, more insulating, and more durable. And it works really nice up against wood sheeting if you put a layer behind the foam board to fill the gaps and provide a vapor path to allow moisture to escape. Also, for the garage doors, what I ended up doing is cutting the foam sections the full size of the panel, then cutting it down the middle. This lets you lever both halves into the slot at the top and bottom and press it flat in the middle, then just seal it with tape.
building science guy here, your right. Air sealing and drainage planes are just as important as insulation. if you can not get good air sealing you have to have vapor permeability
My spray foam for my 30’x60’x12’ @2” was only $7500 way cheaper then foam board. And I was told it is R7 per inch. And the install company filled and sealed all joints and the roof vent. But thanks for informative video.
My issue with foam is what you said, you won’t know about water issues. Furthermore, unlike mineral wool, water can’t permeate it. Moisture can dry through mineral wool and drywall. For me, as an 1800s stucco house owner, I want and need the exterior of the house to be able to dry through the walls. Frankly, I find mineral wool the superior product most of the time opposed to foam. There just aren’t any significant pros with foam over mineral wool 🤷♂️.
I use mineral wool most every job, having a fire barrier, insects and rodents to like it, but I haven't verified it and it breaths like u said, know they have mineral wool sheets for under concrete but I bet it would be great for walls, cost more than foam board but having fire proof would be worth it.
I did this before but I used foam to put it in place and cut it an inch smaller to tightly seal it in place zero draft all cracks and gaps filled I used windows and door foam to set it in place in Ontario in the dead of winter my highest gas bill was $234 I had a corner gas furnace hanging in the garage a gaS furnace in the house and 2 gas fireplaces one in the basement and one on the main floor it was always warm as I dont like to be cold
I have always called this smart man's spray foam or poor man's spray foam. Too many horror stories of some numb nut with a hangover mismixing the foam. Use a tablesaw to cut the foam and use 2 layers to offset the joints. Goes up fast and adds structurel support verses racking. Best buildings I have ever working in. No off gassing except the good stuff used as glue.
I saw a bunch of really expensive homes that got spray foam start to slowly kill its occupants.... homes were off gassing formaldehyde and the kids were getting messed up first. They had to REMOVE the entire roof and framing because anything stuck to the wood was toxic. That alone made me positive I would never spray from anything I lived in. Repairs are near impossible.
Electric fillet knife or electric carving knife works good to cut the foam. Only thing I would spray would be the floor from the outside of an off the ground house or building. Then maybe little nooks and crannies you can't get the board.
There are more benefits to spray foam than just R value. That being said, most heat leaves through the roof. Something like 90%. I had the roof spray foamed and then used foam board similar to this on the walls. No reason at all to waste money on the walls. A few suggestions……use spray foam adhesive (in a can, comes out like spray foam but less dense) to tack the boards to the backing and apply the edges as a sort of mortar. No gaps, no ugly yellow lines. Also, they make gray foam board. Looks much nicer then pink. And they also make gray spray foam in a can if you do need to seal cracks.
90%? Where is that stat coming from? Note that heat, like water under pressure, will seek to escape via your weak points. So there is no surface that can truly be neglected.
I spray foamed my new home, it was the best investment made when insulating, sure it may cost a bit more then batting ? BUT in the long run, you'll be 110%satisfied you did..NO bugs can get in your home..NO mice can eat there way thru because of the material content of the foam...i also did my crawl space which is a 4 ft wall 10 thick foundation walls also the floor joists, that keep my floors warm. my floors are approx 2 inch thick total ...I paid $1.25 a sqft for the foam.....look into it, you won't regret it...
Another advantage of your method over spray foam is if you ever have to replace the metal siding/roofing due to damage it will come off easily vs being stuck to the spray foam. I'm going through all of these same challenges right now with my new building. Cost is a factor especially since the price of most building materials has easily doubled.
Read the comments, folks. A wealth of information is there.
In the last couple of years many people started building their own home or container homes on UA-cam and they always use spray foam through a company. I told my wife I don't understand why don't they use foam board much more better and you can do it yourself. Good job you guys!
I own a spray foam company and you are correct on 1 thing, it is expensive. I am at 2.00 per sq/ft per inch. However you are wrong on the R value, almost all closed cell foams are at least 7 per inch. Another thing, it is almost impossible to apply incorrectly, at least with my equipment. If you are off ratio, the machine shuts down until you fix it, so the off gassing isn't an issue. It can happen, but very rare. And as far as the leaks, if sprayed directly to the tin, the water will not sit between the tin and foam. I do agree with the price of spray foam now, the foam board is a good option, but you do lose the seal and the strength added from the foam. Not bashing on you, but just pointing out some misconceptions.
We pinned a comment about the R value information being incorrect. And what’s making the price so high with the spray foam? Besides the inflation ?
@@G.A.N.G101 I am being told that it is one of the chemicals that has to be shipped from China, although there always seems to be a reason to keep the prices high, so take that for what it is worth. My cost has doubled on the product. Now I also do polyjacking of concrete with foam that is manufactured in USA and that price has only gone up about 15%, so I want to believe they are telling me the truth. Of course the shipping has almost doubled, but that can be expected.
So if you spray it directly against the tin it seals it?
@@leeridings5414 yes, but if the tin ever needs to be replaced, it will have to be re-sprayed, so it is better to have something like Tyvek on first.
He’s just trying to justify his decision to go foam board. He doesn’t mention the fact he is potentially trapping moisture behind the board which you don’t do with the spray foam.
I also had a spray foam guy do an estimate of my shop space. I have a vapor barrier on the outside before I put the metal on. He gave me an estimate that was very high and an even number like 12 thousand no other dollars. The other thing he was going to do was fill my soffit and ridge vent with that foam, so I would not have any air flow out of my shop. I am in the south and we need air flow for high humidity. I also used the panels which were about half the price of spay foam. I pained the pink with exterior house paint. It took no time at all to roll out before putting up the panels. Its been two years and the paint still looks great. I also used long deck screws with washer to hold it in place, just snugging up the washer against the panel. I also left a space in the between the rafters for air flow to the ridge. I used a firing strip of 2x to give it the space, my top plate of the rafter is 2x6 so I have room for a panel. Looks more finished and clean and no mess and now I have open trusses to look at instead of a sea of yellow spray foam at different levels. Much cheaper and If I have a problem with my metal roof I can fix it. Spray foam is over ratted in my book and looks nasty on a finished garage. I also put it up myself with a roll around platform and taking my time.
The two of you make me miss a friend I have had since 1985... good times working together!
For consideration: two 1.5" layers would allow you to butt the sheets tight, and then simply offset the joints between the two layers so that heat doesn't have a path through the layers.
That’s a great idea! I wonder what the costs difference would be?
@@G.A.N.G101 The improved insulating value would justify it. Two layers with overlapping seams is a real standard thing with foam sheets. This is fairly established tech.
Good idea but is it really any better. With spray foam you are getting more vapor barrier seal and some places call for that. The 1.5" has to be installed twice and might be the same R value per inch. I think this would come down to where you live, cost of material, cost of labor, and actual R value for future savings. 1.5" could be taped on one layer for more vapor sealing too.
@@spf-92.5 It's almost certainly the same R / inch. But I think 1.5" is a pretty standard (eg, Home Depot) choice, with consumer DIY pricing. In some areas, 3" is a specialty item, special shipment (measure twice!). The problem with the gaps is that it allows a flanking pathway for the heat. Heat will flow more quickly to the lowest insulation value area. I don't get involved much in building surface specifications ("just the R value, ma'am"), but I notice that especially on roofs, the practice is multiple, non-aligned, layers. It's the same with acoustics (an area more familiar): pinholes allow flanking pathways for the energy, and negate the barrier effect.
@@petem6503 correct, with a flush installation, you would only need to caulk the outer gaps, but you might still want to do the inner seams. It's a "half pinhole" instead of a full, at the inner seams.
Great video, I’m a 61 year old woman, and I’m also using the same foam board myself doing my 30x 50 pole barn same method. Haven’t started my ceiling yet so looking forward to your next video on helpful hits- things you would have done different. 👍🏻 maybe I can do it without too much pain 🤣 thanks guys ❤
Thank you! And great project to undertake. Hopefully we can shed some light on the ceiling for you
good for you Kammy, had a 24 x 50 metal bldg put up on our new homestead, wife & I are in our 60's & will be insulating it this way was also
Put a lid in it and just blow the ceiling with cellulose. Spray foam for the walls would be a much better system than sheet foam. I hope it works out for you.
Who installed your pole barn, if you have the work wht type of footing material you used
A Farmer here in Upatate NY reversed this process on a pole barn. He placed 2--3" boards taping the seams and over lapping the butt joints. He used screws with a plastic flat cap on them to attach it to the 2x4 stringers. He did the roof...the whole building outside and taped the joints. On the roof he used ice shield adhered to the top layer.....Then placed 2x4 treated diagonally across the whole roof screwed through the 2x4 and foam board directly into truss with Loooong screws. After he attached his metal roof. This pole barn is tight. Later about 3-4yrs he put rock wool insulatiin on the inside. Bugs and varmints hate and won't nest in it. He heats his pole barn with a used oil burner. It's his wood work shopped it is huge.
Its always heart warming to see a loving couple working on a project together LOL, great work guys looks great and I am sure it will be nice and warm in there
Thanks
One benefit to consider about closed cell spray foam, that I didn't see mentioned, is the fact that the spray foams tensile strength that can enhance the overall structural support of your tin building.... As far as insulating your ceiling you could use an open cell if you're worried about leaks... that will allow moisture to pass through. As far as off ratio foam if you hire a reputable spray foam company with trained experienced installers and modern reactors it is usually not a factor. All that said, nice job on the garage. Rigid board and some time spent will definitely save you money.
No faster way to void steel sheet warranty
You guys are not only informative, but hilarious as well with your ribbing each other. Very good video!
I bought 2 rubbermaid 7x7 sheds and lined the inside with the 2" r10 foamular foam pannels. Works very well! I sleep in one and a kitchen is set up in the other. I live out in the country....
Beats paying nearly $1300 in rent every month!
That’s a good setup!
Cover in aluminum foil using rubber cement($15/gallon will do entire job). Roll it on. Cheap and MUCH warmer and lighter inside. Besides exposed poly board is a gargantuan fire hazard.
@@w8stral thanks for the info. I had the smarts to keep lights away from it because of that potential but hearing someone else say it makes me even more cautious....
@@w8stral the thinner used in rubber cement will melt the foam and be off gassing horribly for a long time , not suitable for a dwelling.
@@DL101ca Technically you are right, the thinner will eat a bit of the foam, but evaporates near instantly while you wait for the glue to get tacky and then you apply the surface. "gassing" for a long time... yea a couple hours is "long time"... Give you a hint ALL of your countertops are put on with said "horribly outgassing" rubber cement family of products. If you have veneered refrigerators etc... same thing. Linoleum floor, same thing. That being said, sure, cut out plastics wherever you can do so.. I suggest you start at your carpet/paint/wood sealer before whining/bitching about rubber cement. And this application is in a garage...
I did the same in a much smaller shop. The original walls were rock foundation. Put foam board to make a seal (and make things flat) then put my framing in front of that, followed by drywall.
One tip - I couldn't tell if you had one, but they make metal foam applicator guns. These screw onto the tops of most of the foam cans and give you really precise trigger control. When you're done, turn a knob to close it off, and you don't have to worry about the foam in the nozzle hardening.
Doing it for my garage walls and garage doors. Gets hot like crazy. Do you still recommend?
@@demodemo9698 Yes, it's a great approach. Keep in mind that my setup is foam against rock and cinder block, and this video is against metal. If you're going up against wood, many recommend some form of vapor barrier.
You do lose space - 7" on each wall (3" to foam, 3.5" from the 2x4, then your drywall is 1/2". If you want to preserve some space, maybe 1.5" foam against the wall, then fill the cavities with 3" foam. This only consumes 5.5", but you have to a lot more cutting and finagling around wires or outlets.
@@yourtechjohn Ok good to know. Thx. I think I’m following you. I have a detached garage ( no drywall, just studs) I was thinking about the pink foam these guys used and fill in tight spots (outlets, etc ) with the canned foam that expands. Don’t know anything about being handy. Does that sound about right ?
@@yourtechjohn you dont lose any space from 2x4.... the foam is in between them ... this is no different them putting insulation in a house wall and then closing with drywall if you do that
@@cyriseye Yes, that's another way to do it. If you cut foam board to fit between the 2x4 studs, you won't lose any horizontal space. However, your framing will be in contact with the non-insulated wall. A house or garage with vinyl siding usually has a layer of insulation between the sheathing and the siding.
Like I said, I put the foam board in first against the rock wall (much like the ones in the video did against the metal). Then I built my 2x4 framing up against that. This gave me a flat, fully insulated surface with no gaps in the insulation. I didn't want my 2x4 framing to be against the non-insulated block and rock walls. This also gave me a lot more freedom for running wires through the studs before attaching drywall. I also used spray foam every other stud to isolate "pockets" of air.
Spray foam is the way I went, then framed walls off the purlins & installed 3/4" birch plywood. super insulated and sound proofed. Did use the foam 1-1/2" board for the shop doors and works great! The 8" of dead air space creates a great barrier!
i can't decide what to do. thinking spray foam. how do you like it?
In Michigan I used foam board and the spray insulation. It worked very well in my little tiny barn.
love that your daughter helps you! I was the one who helped my dad too.
I'm a contractor and I've seen it all but I will say I've never heard a legitimate comparison pros and cons spray to sheet. I can dig it
With the price of spray foam going thru the roof lately , foam board is a decent option. You do not get the structural benefits of spray foam though. That stuff makes for a solid building since it adheres to the metal and creates a solid panel between the studs. It totally transforms being inside a metal building also as it deadens the tinny sound of the metal whenever the wind blows or you shut a door. As for getting a water leak in the roof and not knowing about it with spray foam , I always suggest only using the dome head metal screws that cover and protect the rubber washer from sun damage . You'll never have a leak if you don't strip one out while installing them .
As long as said board is in a building NOT attached to where you live. That stuff is a fire death trap waiting to happen. It is in effect gasoline attached to your wall. Cheap, but gargantuan fire hazard.
@@w8stral Yeah , that is one down side but I don't have any real experience with the flammability of the foam boards. Spray foam on the other hand will only burn when there is a constant flame. It extinguishes itself as soon as the flame is removed while the wood framing in your house is nothing but fuel for a fire , LOL .
@@rydfree Blatantly not true for wood or spray foam
@@rydfree Matt Risinger has a good video explaining the dangers of closed cell foam and fire. The concern is smoke, not flame. If you use closed cell foam and do not cover it (i.e drywall), there are a couple of spray products that get sprayed on the foam that essentially eliminate the foam's ability to burn. So, foam does easily burn and smoke; but there are methods to mitigate it.
@@infiniteyep5224 Matt is all that rehearsed in spray foam, though he tries. I've been in the spray foam industry for 14 years. It does burn when you get it hot enough, everything will, but it has to meet fire code rating of 1 for inside of a structure which is better than wood products. Its has fire retardants in it for safety but is still require by most codes to be cover in a occupied space. If you are leaving it exposed you need to install an intumescent coating over it(in an occupied space), which goes on like thick paint and creates a 15 minute thermal barrior and doesn't smoke.
I built an addition 4 or 5 years ago and used a similar system. I framed 2x6 exterior walls clad with 1“ aluminum faced polyiso foam boards. Then I cut 2“ closed cell pink foam boards to fit in the stud bays. I cut them a little lose and then used great stuff to seal them in. I went through a lot of cans but it was pretty cheap and easy to do. I used a similar hand saw as you did to cut the boards. The 2“ boards left enough room to get electrical lines through the studs in front of the foam boards (I drilled the holes first and put them just in front of the boards). I then filled the remaining space with mineral wool bats sized for 2x4 walls. The result is a great insulation value, good air tightness, and good sound insulation at a very reasonable price. Also, the rock wool is fire proof, so the flammable foam is well protected from the inside (and outside had cement board siding). It took a while to do but my labor was free. Spray foam would have been a lot more expensive even back then. I think the 2“ boards were about $25 and Home Depot had a volume discount that brought the price down even more. The spray cans came from a sale at Menards for less than $3 for a tall can. I think I used about 25 boards a similar number of cans. I could have gotten used 3“ foam boards from a flat roof someone was selling for about $15 a piece but that wouldn’t have worked for my situation, and nobody had used 2“ boards available at the time. You can find these used roofing insulation boards on FB marketplace frequently.
Very neat and clean job! I had the spray foam done in my 7200 sq ft pole barn! They put 12 inches in the ceiling and 8 inches in the walls! They really did a great job, and was told if I used his product, I wouldn't need either heat or A/C! As it turns out he was correct! In the summer the temp never got above 85 and in the winter never below 60, just so long as I kept the doors closed as much as possible! He did recommend that I run dehumidifiers which really do the trick! After 4 years with neither heat or air, I decided to try the Mr Cool A/C, heat pump, just to take the edge off the highs and lows, and maintain a more even controlled atmosphere! In just a few words, it was definitely worth the additional cost!
Open cell or are you filthy rich
You used a different product, open cell spray foam
Exactly. Not buying it. 12 inches and you'll have toxic outgassing for years.
@cheating gravity If you attempt to lay down 12 inches all at once, you will. However, if you lay 2 inches at one time and allow it to cure, you won't have gassing issues.
@@Mattie_Ice 👍What kind of cure time between layers?
Great video. Here’s a HUGE tip that can save a lot of money: Chicken houses. They are often disassembled and the materials sold for pennies on the dollar. I’ve got a few hundred dollars in enough foamboard to do my entire shop. It’s not perfect, but after finishing it all out and painting… you’d never know. 👍
A few other had mentioned this tip as well. Use a tape on all the joints. Test it first on the foam, but a butyl aluminum tape would last forever. Same tape that is used to seal around windows & doors during the rough in. Plastic tape can get old and crack.
My wife and I are in the last phases of a Barndominium build, metal building, 'red iron' steel structure. Half interior house and half large garage. We opted for the fiberglass with vinyl backing, 6" thickness, and then we did 2x4 framing for the interior and added additional 4" of fiberglass, so we have 10" of insulation with a 2" air gap between the metal building insulation and the interior framing insulation. 14" of fiberglass for the ceiling. All the fiberglass insulation plus wood framing was cheaper than the cost of just spray foam. I know, the air sealing isn't as good, but hopefully with diligent construction and the air gap we have a pretty good wall system.
You did it correct allowing for a drying space between the metal and framing
The work site humor is hilarious in this one 😎
Why not use an insulation made for metal buildings like Prodex? Vapor barrier, heat deflector and insulator w/R22. I had my metal building installers put it on at the time of installation so it's between the studs and the metal skin (sides and roof). Tape the overlapping seams on the inside and good to go! The insulation is made with a specific overlap so no need to create your own.
700 SF building with 9 ft walls, 3/12 pitch was $2K in materials with shipping, tax and included double sided tape to adhere to the framing.
Thats the way to go on new build. But once its built...thats hard to do.
I am a post frame (they are calling it a metal building) builder. I agree with you about the value of wrapping the insulation on the outside of the frame. Be advised, Prodex outright lies about the R value. It passes me off because they have a good product, so there is no reason to grossly exaggerate the R value.
The cool thing about the radient barrier and the benefits of wrapping it outside of the frame is that the owner can still add another layer of insulation just like these guys did if needed. Some commentors point out that these guys might get mold growing against the metal, but if they had the vapor barrier like you installed (especially and only if taped air tight), they have virtually no risk of moisture problems like mold.
You realize it’s not actually R22. There is litigation against Prodex for falsely advertising the R value of their products. In your application, compressed between the skin and framework, you are only creating a slight block to thermal bridging. Your R value is around 1.1-2
Two things and you probably cover it in the next video. #1 your R-value is for cooling. The R-value is rated at 70 degrees so you aren't getting that at 30 degrees. This is why I use fiberglass in 6 inch walls then 2 inch as a vapor barrier. Get the best of both. #2 when filling in the cracks over head the spray foam is really sticky when it gets on you but doesn't stick at all in the crack. So it usually falls into your hair and really sticks! Answer: use masking tape over the crack then run the tube under one side of the tape. That will hold the foam as it expands.
For the R-value, you're wrong. You are speaking of PolyISO, which the R-value falls with temperature. For this XPS foam, the R-value actually INCREASES with a drop in temperature! At 75f the R-value is 5 per inch. At 15f, the R-value is 6 per inch!
Cut the foam roughly 1 in less than the opening all around. Put the piece in then use small leftover pieces of foam to wedge between the sides to hold the foam in place. Then spray foam around all the edges. The little bit wider gap makes it easier and faster for foaming.
I've been using this method in remodeling basements bathrooms bedrooms you name it for many years now. It's great for small jobs because you get the advantage of spray foam, R-value and sealing, without calling in a truck.
thanks dogg
Nice work! I used foam sheets and spray foam in my cracks as well and after I was all done I kept hearing loud snaps and cracks. It was the building moving causing the spray foam to "crack" and separate from the foam sheets creating air gaps. If you want an air tight seal it's probably best to tape the gaps as well.
Sometimes when metal panels are fastened with screws on top of the ribs when expand and contract happens the screw thread is popn on the panels. Creating over time orbited holes and leaks. With what i call pole barn panels or century drain/wheeling steel always fasten in the flats. We get lots of snow around here and most people put them on top of the ribs and if it is to ice up the fastners have very little shear strength so they shear off and tear up lite guage panels...
Just better to use a professional and have it spray foamed.
@@peterparker9286what flats? Won't screw heads stick up wherever you put them?
@@charleswalters5284 The flats of the metal sheet next to what is called the corrugation. When people put the screws through the top of the corrugation that screw head with the neoprene washer 29 guage panel then 3/4 air then it penetrates the roof deck.... screw the sheet in the flat so its not orbiting that hump through expansion contraction. Them roof screws have very little shear strength. If ice slids down and the sheets are fastened theough that hi part it will pop the heads off E z Lee or even tear up the Rib/corrugation.
@@peterparker9286 I have never seen screws on ribs except on flashings or the odd spot on a rib that's flaring. That's weird doing a whole sheet on the ribs.
And had a 14x16 overhead door spring assembly bracket let go because the installers used those 1/4" tin screws to fasten it. Did some damage to the ceiling and wall unwinding when it let go, but luckily did so when the door was down and no one around. They aren't a lag bolt for sure
I love the way you guys insult each other. The ladies in my life would say "oh that's not nice, they shouldn't talk to each other that way." I see it as a sign of respect and working together. If you don't like someone, you would generally not rib them like that.
I liked your idea and technique.
Thanks ! Some people just don’t get us! 😂
Spray foam adds lots of structural rigidity. This can be a good thing for a garage like that where you don’t have thick sheathing. However also a downside is it’s a pain or near impossible to make repairs or changes. I like putting foam on the exterior (property braced) then furring strips. Greatstuff pro cans to fill gaps to air seal then on top of that put rock-wool. Adding foam panels then greatstuff around them in wall cavity is fine too if you don’t have foam on the exterior and want to air seal. XPS foam is best…EPS is not air or water proof, but that might be what you want in some installs. Poly/closed spray foam off gasses and R value drops with age. I wouldn’t touch a house with spray foam especially in the roof…could be fine or could be hiding rot. For roofs, the best setup is to have a baffle air gap under the sheathing to let water leaks or condensation to dry out…if you have to do cathedral ceiling without room for air gap, you should use fluffy insulation because it will still let the top dry…never use spray foam in sealed cathedral ceiling, especially low slopped.
Hello, good comment. I was wondering if you could elaborate on why to never use spray foam on a closed cathedral ceiling. Thank you!
@@KingKongbabe If you spray closed cell foam the underside of cathedral ceiling, the sheathing and structural lumber becomes trapped, preventing it from drying out. Depending on the season and assuming the interior is air conditioned, moisture will build up on the top or bottom. When cold and warm air meets, you get condensation (water turns from a gas to a liquid). To combat that you need the other way around to dry out. Putting foam in cathedral ceiling makes it difficult on both sides. If perfectly executed, it can work…but not forever because we all know nothing is perfect.
@@nickeckemoff7631 thank you
Here in PA I also used 2" foam board for my 30x48 pole barn. Back when I did it 20 years ago it was $23 a sheet x's 60 sheets and they didn't have 3". I actually used small fender washers under the drywall screws to secure it to the purlins. Looked fine all painted white. Still holding up like the day it was installed. I used a power saw (blade turned backwards) on most of my cuts. Mess wasn't an issue in this application. I actually cut and fit 3/8" drywall (lighter weight wise) in between the ceiling trusses over the foam board. Again, I used the drywall screw with fender washer to hold it up. Having no solid back the screws will just pull through. I did have a mobile platform I made to hold each sheet of drywall. That mounted to my mobile car lift, so it was fairly easy. I was a bit younger then though so I'm glad it's done.
I had the exact same experience with my 50 x 32 Quonset Hut Workshop. Spray foam was going to be $27,000 because the company insisted it had to be sprayed with an intumescent paint after the 2" of foam was applied a strange requirement for Maine ? Anyway i went to the local Home Depot ordered a few hundred sheets of 1" ( to enable it to curve around the curved walls in two layers) a few dozen sheets of 2" and spent a few weeks attaching sheets to the frame i built. Looks way better than lumpy old spray foam. The bottom 8 feet all around i covered with Luan ply to make things attach more easily . I did get given a unique spray gun that you attach a can of Home Depot spray foam and then you can actually spray the joints to seal the surface before you apply the sheet foam, worked like a dream. Total cost $4500.. and a very sore back 🤧
I used this method and tucked blue denim/wool insulation into the cracks and crevices. Worked great.
Since you have extra, add a layer of 3" to the doors. Cut the joints back to 30°, to allow for hinge movement.
Also, add all your current channels to each channel & mention each channel in each video.
I insulated mine with 2.5” thick closed cell 4x8’ foam boards that I bought used from a commercial roofer. It is the ticket.
I was looking at the ceiling/roof the entire time and wondering what you were going to do about insulating it. Can't wait for that video.
I built my own shop, and I built it out of concrete blocks. Blocks are maintenance free and don't require insulation since they are hollow. Blocks are rot proof, bug proof and great at sound proofing. I used 1/4" OSB for the ceiling and blew in some cellulose insulation overhead. It is very easy to heat and cool.
You really used to see alot more concrete block shops. Just not as common anymore. Nice job sounds like you built a good one.
Simple and cost effective, not bad!
Masonry contractor here. Block have a r value of 1. We fill the cores with Styrofoam beads.
A trick that would have saved your knees that I learned when doing sheetrock. Put the first sheet up high like you did. Then put the second sheet down to the floor, this will leave a gap between the two sheets. Then fill the gap at chest level, saves you from having to crawl around on the floor.
In the UK, insurance companies are not willing to insure or as part of a home purchase allow spray foam usage. The main issue being that it's not possible to see what condition timber roof is in, root, and other factors can be hidden - also subsequent water damage can not be seen. Most if not all the time rigid foam as you show is used alongside other insulation types. Also, you might want to investigate a stick on soft foam edge use during insulation, it avoids spray foam being used as a sealer - which is messy and somewhat permanent.
I think this "issue" is a silly one. If you finish the space, no one questions the condition. If you're standing there looking at finished walls instead of the roof, that's fine. If you're standing there looking at spray foam, now they "can't inspect."
It's nonsense. Most definitely more of a political/manufactured "issue" than a real issue.
If you finish the space, they also won't care what insulation is under it, and assume it's all done properly, even if it's all spray foam. It's so stupid.
Great video and it answers the spray vs board cost question for me. Thanks. I also see the missing Egyptian sarcophagus that everyone has been looking for.
And the final tip get a good friend like Joe that is willing to work while you talk........
I started doing electrical work way back in the late 1970s. The very first time I watched a man spray foam a ruuf, I told him that was just wrong. I mentioned the same things you did. I enjoyed the videos.
Thanks for watching! We appreciate it
I am a plumber here in Middle Tennessee and I have noticed over the last 10 years that spray foam when it is wet before it dries it has a chemical reaction to PEX piping. It damages the pipe as soon as it but once it is dry doesn't seem to do as much harm. Our inspectors around here at 1 spray foam and every one of the drilled holes through would that it comes through which is cause damage to the pipe. Just something to think about if you have any plumbing out and your steel buildings.
People need to be using rockwool more. That’s the better product frequently.
@@schwartzmatthewe foam is air tight, rock wool is not. If insulated value is all you are after rock wool is great but the air barrier of foam is better.
There is some debate to this. I feel it depends on the type of spray foam being used. I think some of your two part foams that don't get mixed well (potentially) could have some impact, but your common hole sealing products such your canned spray foam seems to be completely safe and specifically says it is safe on Pex.
@@JimYeats tell that to the thousands of homeowners that have to rip their sheetrock out in order to fix leaks exactly where the foam has been touching their pipes.
@@toddlenard7602 But you understand the problem with that sort of logic right? Regardless of the validity of your claim of "thousands" of people who have leaks in their pex -unequivocally (?) - due to spray foam (pex and pipes in holes or penetrations are ALWAYS at higher risk for leaking due to friction and expansion and contraction against surfaces if they aren't properly protected) there are - without question - millions upon millions of homes built with spray foam insulation, either used as the main form of insulation, or, used as penetration sealers. So, you are trying to make the argument that because .001% of people with Pex have a leak at or near where spray foam is touching or rubbing against it as evidence that spray foam is not compatible with Pex is illogical and doesn't hold merit. Which is why it continues to be used with pex in the estimated 1.5 million homes built each year (not that every one of those homes uses pex, but a large portion do)
Spray foam does not even need a leak for damage to be caused. Just simple condensation can cause a huge problem. Have you fellas thought of adding some of that A2A bubble wrap-type foil insulation under the interior finish as well? I'm understand that it provides an extra R-12-ish. Cheers from Alberta, Canada.
We have considered it and still undecided and about to put up our metal on the walls.
@@G.A.N.G101 foil does not add R value. It is a radiant barrier and must have at least a 1” air gap on one side to work
Have you thought about adding a fire 🔥 barrier? Sheetrock would be a good option or even plywood is better than having exposed foam. I would run a bunch of 20 Amp outlets and maybe a 30 - 50 amp 240v outlet on each wall. Maybe some outlets in the ceiling would be nice for pull down reels etc. I would add a bunch of 4' led lights on the ceiling as well. Have them wired in pairs so you dont need to have them all on at the same time. A generator hookup would be pretty sweet as well. Also you definitely need a heat shield behind the wood stove...
We’re installing sheet metal an the walls
Yes, both spray-on and these foam boards are flammable. I suppose you put a 1x4 PT board along the bottom to keep the sheet rock off the floors, then use construction adhesive, or do you recommend the spray foam as the adhesive?
Very nice of you to share your WISDOM. Thanks
You’re welcome
I live in south Louisiana and our metal buildings condensate when our lovely humidity is raging. It seems to me that a thin vapor/ radiant barrier with a 1/2” air gap on both sides is needed ibetween the exterior and the foam board. (Not bubble wrap, just the paper one). My experience as a owner of a HVAC company tells me that placing the foam board against the metal will definitely cause problems. A air gap is crucial and yes, time consuming. I did my shop like that and am glad it’s over with
Yes through the thermal cycles and humidity some pole barns rain inside. Polystyrene foam being closed cell cant let moisture through. U did good with a gap between because eventually it touching is going to rot out the metal from the inside out. I would never put this on a roof like some do. I have seen rotted roof decks because of this stuff...
That's what I was thinking and was reading the comments to see if anyone else thought the same. I think using a few 1/2" + strips that air can circulate thru and hold the foam off the metal, or some L brackets at each end etc... basically anything to keep an air gap btwn the outer sheet metal and the foam would suffice?
what about for a residential home - we are going to have a metal standing seam roof that requires the metal to be installed directly to the sheathing which will be plywood & then topped with synthetic over it. Builder and insulation guy both recommended open cell foam on underside of roof decking. I want to use Rockwool in my exterior walls but that may be an issue with it being in short supply so not sure what to do about that but also the roofer didn't see an issue with the open cell foam and they all said they have not seen humidity issues because I drilled them all on it. Only thing the insulation guy did say is that he did acknowledge the issue of termite pest companies not warrantying or even treating homes with spray foam. He doesn't undestand why and says a lot of insulation companies are looking to start doing termite treatments with warranties to get around that.
@@bellaherna1 so what I did in my shop and home attics was this. From where the roof starts rising away from the exterior wall, I ran 1 x 4 strips of wood horizontally, every two feet all the way up to the collar bracing. I then used reflective bubble wrap, which comes on a 4’ x 100’ roll, and unrolled it horizontally, so if you’re house is 50’ long cut a piece 50’, shoving it down to the soffit and stapling it to the wood strips. That’s why they are every two feet. Then keep repeating all the way up to the collar bracing and continue across the bottom of Basically air comes in front the soffit area, travels between the roof and bubble wrap up to the center of the attic. It is at this place on the roof where I have two ( on mine ) solar powered ventilators. What this does is keep air moving under the decking and shingles reducing the heat buildup while also preventing it from heating up the attic. Taping the joints on the bubble wrap is fairly important. This also prevents your air conditioned air inside from being sucked up into the attic. Everything about this method is very good. The downside is that I did mine by myself and it seemed to take a lot longer. It is time consuming, but you only have to do it once for the life of the home. The wood strips are crucial!! This is what allows the air/heat transfer from all rafters equally. Since I work in attics every day, I believe that you can’t have too many soffit vents. The cooler your attic the lower your bills will be. It sounds difficult to explain it but it really is not hard or complicated to do at all. Feel free to contact me if you have any questions…. Side note- I’m not sure if this is why, but I seem to get less cell reception now with the reflective bubble wrap, strange!!
@@kirkhernandez1165thank you for your reply. I don’t really understand it but appreciate it 😊. So unless I am confused it doesn’t sound like you have a conditioned attic. Ours will be unvented/conditioned. We will also have a dehumidifier.
I contracted closed cell spray foam on my 40x60 barn. Gables and ceiling (open truss) was sprayed with 2 inch closed cell. I had them spray 1.5 inch on the walls. They also painted the ceiling with fire retardant spray. They also painted the trusses flat black to match the ceiling. Total price was $15,000. It is awesome.
I do have a HVAC system but only use it 1-2 hours a day when I’m working out, playing pool or watching games. I plan on adding 2 x EG-4 DIY solar minisplits. These would run off solar only but have the option to draw power from the grid when desired. I would let them run nonstop during the day from sun power.
To save electricity I heat it with a fireplace in the Tennessee winter. I get the temp almost 70 degrees on cold days.
Here is a huge advantage I found with spray foam. I run one 100 pint Dehumidifier with pump I bought from Lowes. It keeps the humidity around 50%! I suspect it can do this since the barn is sealed like a cooler.
Leaks! You made a good point. However since the closed cell sprayed is painted flat black I was able to see where the roof was leaking. I would see white stains penetrating through. My son jumped on the roof and I talked him over to the spot. He found loose screws and tightened them up. I believe we found about 5-7 leaks.
Great video. Thanks for sharing.
I used spray foam to float my amphibious vehicle. It floated the first day but the second day it sank. It is not really closed cell to water. Try picking up the foam filled football after it sets a day or two on the lawn during a rain storm. Good job guys.
Iguana
Thank you
GREAT POINTS AND EXPLANATION. I only have one complaint and I bet Chad already knows what it is
😂 🐕
I had the same idea some time back. Glad it worked. I was thinking to leave about an inch between sheets and let the great stuff fill it up. For cutting the sheets you can use nichrome wire .01" and a variac. It will melt right through. Good luck.
You can use the spray foam to glue it to the wall as well. Works great.
thanks for the video. seeing someone do a project like this gives me ideas to consider in the future.
Another thing to consider is that wood is not a very good insulator (R 1 to 1.4 per inch) as compared to XPS (R5 per inch). If you want to maximize your insulation performance, cover the studs / barn poles with insulation. You could put the 3" over the studs, or 1.5 inch in the stud bays, and then put a second layer at a 90 degree angle over the studs. This would block any direct thermal bridging from outside to inside.
Also the bugs only get in through holes so think about sealing things up as well as you can. I recommend a thermal camera on a cold night
Noticed two things: 1st you used the word, "catastrophic" and following "Tim the Tool man" all those years, I don't think he ever used it and probably couldn't even spell it! 2nd it does seem like the last couple of panels, where you decided to help; were done right! (LMAO). Over all this was a pretty fair imitation of Tim Allen's iconic show and quite interesting as the panels vs the spray offers such a huge savings on installation and R-Value quality. Thanks for sharing.
😆 thank you!
You guys crack me up. Joe's the star!!! Really appreciate yall sharing. I have a friend wanting to put up a metal barn/garage. I'll probably end up building it and insulating it like this. Very cool.
Joe will immediately let that go to his head 😄. Thanks for watching good luck with your project
I have used SprayEZ for my stuff. It works great and always mixes good. Cheaper than having a company come out.
The main advantages of foam are speed and sealing against air infiltration. Downside is certainly cost, especially for large projects. Otherwise, use board or batten.
I used some foam kits from Menards to insulate my entire basement rim joist area in less than an hour. (the basement is 50'x24') It would have taken multiple days had I tried to do board or batting and they still would not have sealed all the cracks. Besides, I deal with a chronic illness and I was able to do it quickly. I had only two days before a crew was coming to put in a french drain so I was also under a time crunch. Do it while the walls are all clear of stuff!
I did nearly the same thing in my 30x50. I put 1-1/2" against the steel between the girts then covered the whole thing with 7/16 OSB. Then I covered that in places where there might be sparks or flame with another layer of old barn roof tin. It's only about R7 for the walls but it really cut down on the drafts. I did it over a couple years because the garage was already full and I was working by myself so I spent most of the time moving stuff out of the way.
Nice job! Half of the project with us was moving stuff too. Definitely easier and quicker with 2 people
"Three square inches Sound rule": Three square inches of gap, added up on all cracks and penetrations, is the equivalent of the wall not being there. (Of course the actual wall not being there would allow wind to pass through foolishly)
Use the HVAC method of three square inches sound leaking; extend that to include hot/cold transfer, as the vapor barrier IS transfer of heat / cold equally. Ribs, poles, beams, studs are all R value leaks. Total vapor barrier, across frame supports, is the key to gaining the actual insulation benefit. Visualize a wall of water pressing against the building; where would the water squirt in ?
Also, I don't think you touched on this but I wanted my shop to be insulated. I'm 3rd owner of property and the building has been there for the last 25 years. So there is a lot of dirt and whatever else on the walls and ceiling of the workshop. So not only was I quoted about $9,000 for 1 inch of foam but I was told I needed to pull everything out of the building and power wash the walls and ceiling. That would have been quite the chore. This seems a lot simpler.
This is the first video I've seen of yours. I love the dynamic and humor. Instant subscribe.
Timely, too, as I'm over here wanting to get my own shop insulated before winter.
Good to hear! You better get going on your shop! Winter is going to be here sooner than you think!
@@G.A.N.G101 add that to my never-shrinking To Do list, here in the Land of Unfinished Projects!
tip for garage door: i'm in minnesota and found the metal frames of the door are a massive heat sink, sucking it out.
take another layer of 1.5 (i used 2") and cover each section, including the exposed door frame structure with horizontal inso board panels. bevel the panels about 30 deg to allow for the door rolling up. it works.
cover is all, cuz everything metal ,that is exposed, will conduct heat to the outside
Metalized reflective mylar will keep your heat in. I don't know why the insulation companies switched from foil faced to craft paper faced. I'm told that ridgid foam is available foil faced. Makes a huge difference in comfort and heating costs. Reflects heat back into the building.
I agree with this. It’s available in single double sided reflective. This is important for us in the Deep South because it reflects the heat back out of the attics. I call it Redneck Spray Foam
1:30 the King of the Hill theme started playing in my head watching y'all.
To cut the foam board without the mess, sharpen one edge of a 5-6 inch drywall knife. No mess cut!
"Stick the tip in as far as you can get it when you're squirtin' that in there, Joe... fill 'er right up."
Wiser words have never been spoken.
I've been kicking around the idea of a two story barndominium first floor garage/second floor living area. The spray foam insulation cost would be a significant fraction of the total building expense for such a building, which to me seems absurd. This approach is much better for the reasons you point out. Thanks for sharing the cost info up front.
I would still recommend spray foam for the living space. You will make up for that in heating and cooling costs. But I have been suggesting customers wait until foam comes down or use the foam board if it is just shop space. Spray foam is definitely better, but I ask people if they can justify the extra cost just for garage space.
What a lot of people around me are doing is doing like 1inch spray foam and then regular insulation of some type. Either foam board or fiberglass. The spray foam seals the building and then the R vale comes from the other insulation. You get the air seal and R value and not breaking the bank.
Great video, I’m having one built now 18x26x13 and having to frame everything so foam board can be installed is the extra cost. I got a price on foam for 5k. However he brings up a great point about water leaking. I also live in Florida it doesn’t snow here or at least enough to even call it that. It really sleet here if it ever happens.
I’m still undecided.
I don’t think the water leaking is much of a valid point though.. if he’s sealing all the gaps between his foam boards he won’t ever notice a water leak either. So I don’t get how the foam board wins that one..
@@zachmiller289 condensation
@@annahumes2865 what about it?
I build 40 x 60 shop with living room. First floor is fox blocks and upstairs I used spray foam. Love it... really low bills
Spray foam prohibitive if you wish to upgrade electric. Foam board easily removed or cut to accommodate changes.
The easiest way to cut foam board is to either find a smooth blade (no teeth) for a sawsall or jigsaw, or make one out of an old dull blade. Sharpen it like a smooth bladed knife, from both sides. Make sure it's straight, and very sharp. If you know how to get a fine edge on a chisel or paring knife, you'll understand. It will cut like butter through the foam board, without leaving all those tiny foam fragments. A wider blade works better for long straight cuts, a narrow one is good if you need to cut curves.
Put that extra insulation in your home attic, just look to see where snow is melting on your home roof. Easiest way to check insulation😱😂😎
We don’t have an attic. It’s a barn style roof encapsulated
Tf that guy talking about lol
Utv
You can also use a table saw to cut the foam board. Using a table saw will produce smooth, straight cut edges.
Both products are not technically vapor barriers. Vapor retarder is what they are. Foam actually absorbs moisture in some situations. I experienced such a phenomenon.
The closed cell foam we have is a vapor barrier only above 2 inches
Polystyrene is closed cell.
I soso rani ant like rubber roof foam is open cell. I spelled iso... wrong. I have seen my fair share of closed cell roof foam disasters.
For cutting foam, try an electric knife (that grandma doesn't use anymorein the kitchen), or a heated wire tool just melts right through it and makes a nice clean line.
I'd be worried about that gap between the foam board and the metal siding. No matter how well you air seal from the inside you're going to get condensation in that gap from the outside. Make sure that can drain out. If you would have used zip sheathing or something similar you would have an exterior vapor barrier already and this might not be an issue
My 1st thought. I bought property metal building in Northern Michigan insulated this way, pulled it out and spray foamed. Just flat out worked better.
Insulating Below Grade
In below-grade applications, FOAMULAR® insulation’s high resistance to water absorption makes it the only choice to protect against constant and relentless moisture threats present throughout a building’s lifecycle.
Sheathing and Masonry Wall
FOAMULAR® sheathing and masonry wall insulation products are highly water resistant for cavity applications. They maintain their R-value over the life of the building and provide a “continuous insulation” layer prescribed by ASHRAE 90.1
@@detroitjohn4724 when you pulled the foam board, was there any water damage/mold? i have an all steel garage with foam board for 3 years, pulled some foam board from the wall and ceiling this year and found no water damage or mold. im in northern wisconsin
@@nicklebuck Yes, the 2x4 at the bottom has water damage/ dry mold on top. This was july so I assume the sweating was in the winter. Ran down the wall and soaked into the 2 x 4. Will not happen with the Gaco closed cell "one pass" closed cell foam. 3.5" put onto the wall and painted with 20 mills of DC-315.
@@fire617781 Gaco closed cell foam is in my crawl space wall. no air can leak through. bought a building with sheets of pink foam board caulked to the wall. there was sweating in the winter that ran down and soaked into 2x4, with dried black mold. (in july) took it all off and put 3.5" of Gaco which doubled the strenth of the wall. (probably more) Zero air leaks now or in the future. sprayed with DC-315. white itumescent paint.
These guys should have their own show, hilarous.
Sprayed in-place closed cell Polyurethane foam has an R-value of 7. In addition it adds a significant amount of rigidity to the structure.
Has an r value between r5 and r7 the higher the grade the longer it takes to cure. The foam board it ready to rock
R factor is redundant for foam. R value is a laboratory measurement. In the real world just 2" of foam will stop 86% of heat transmission, going to 3" only ups it to 93%. Check out Spray Jones for the details on it.
I completely agree with you about spray foam, but NOT for the same reasons. What we have found with research is that spray foam eventually separates from the substrate over time, creating air leakage.
If you had planned on using this foam on the OUTSIDE of this building you would not have all those thermal bridges (wood posts) and you would not have the TRAPPED MOISTURE between two impermeable materials (the foam and the steel) which is a completely different wall assembly design.
SEALING TAPES do a better job of sealing between foam boards
The foam is available in thicknesses as much as 6" FAR more insulation value
If those bugs are carpenter ants or termites, they LOVE tunneling in foam!
They’re flies and lady bug lookin things
I've always wondered why wouldn't foam board work ,so I'm glad you done this & showed us. I think that was a smart move. 👍🏻👍🏻
Because it is a gargantuan fire hazard is why. It is literally insulating with gasoline. Must be covered. As soon as it must be covered the cost savings essentially evaporate.
Foam board is not flammable… it is however combustible. Needs a temp of 700+ degrees to ignite. I believe it’s less combustible than spray foam especially if the spray foam didn’t cure properly
@@G.A.N.G101 Spray foam depending on the foam used is slightly less combustible. They are both poly styrene based where biggest difference is the foaming agent. Poly styrene is a large chemical family and its ignition temp depends on several factors though they are all fairly the same. Once lit, it goes up like gasoline though. Why by code one must spray on a fire barrier or encase it in a fire barrier such as steel/concrete etc. Poly styrene of any form even with a fire barrier is expressly forbidden in ALL multistory commercial or multifamily apartments/condos/flats or whatever other form one wishes to use in the international building code. Too many people have died in very infamous cases. The most famous was a ~10-->15 multistory condo? building in the UK where the entire structure exterior went up in flames in less than ~7 minutes even with fire barrier on the inside and outside. They got lucky as the wind was blowing away from the lit side of the building and the people got out. Otherwise there would have a hundred dead.
Like many things in life, use with care. Foam board is wonderful in the right application.
Consider hot wire to cut foam as well easy to make DIY and also less insulation to sweep up it just melts the cut.
Thank you for this video. See a lot of construction sites with sprayfoam. I see no advantage in using sprayfoam other than it squeezing into tight corners and gaps. But I see huge frustrations when renovating or changes come up.
Where I am, 2" Corning foam board is $63 for a 2'x8' section! 3" is NOT available. Also, most areas' building codes require a nonflammable covering on top of the exposed foam. (that also applies to spray foam).
Thank you guys from East Canada, Atlantic Canada.🇨🇦 Your presentation helps me to point out to the drafts person, drawing up the extension, why I am not a fan and do not want to use spray foam. I had watched other youtube vids, some disasters using spray foam as well. Rock wool or rigid foam, with the Great stuff spray can to fill in the gaps...and yes, that rodent barrier....got to have those on for sure!👍 Nice sense of humour as well guys...not too over done so you are still believable. Thank you for the tips and tricks....appreciate it. 🙏☺
Your welcome and thank you. Stay warm up there !
@@G.A.N.G101 Yes, staying warm, without spray foam☺. Nice to hear from you as well.👍💯🇨🇦
Instead of foam bord use bubble wrap on outside of frame and then put on outside siding this will reduce R factor a little because smashing of bubble wrap and contract point but do another layer on inside of frame and will have air cap that creates amazing R factor.
Foam board is awesome! Our house is covered in it. It's like an ice chest, no thermal bridging and nice stable temperatures. 😎Passive design 🌞🏡🏜️
We need that ceiling video!!
Have never liked spray foam. Being able to take things apart later is a big advantage.
i could not agree more! I have built and remodeled homes / businesses for 33 years, "excavating" spray-foam to get access, demo or daylight framing for tie-in work is a waking nightmare and labor ex$pensive. we like "flash & batt" for the advantage of air-sealing & access or foam board mechanically attached & batt.
Not good for adding electric or water lines or repairs.... dig dig dig....
I have a 10' x 14' Woodshop. It ain't big but gives me a place to work nonetheless. It's one of those Arrow metal building from Lowe's with a barn top ceiling/roof.
Mannn, these things are NOT water tight whatsoever. Bout a 1000 screws and every single one of them I put the most expensive sealant I could find on them and then spray foamed the cracks. Once in awhile, maybe during a very hard rain, I'll have a "drip" here and there, but it isn't much and isn't often.
I want to use foam board for insulation too, but I've been waiting...I built this building (by myself) last winter, so it's been a year. I waited specifically so the building could get "seasoned" and if anything should happen, leaks etc, I could address them easier. I knew that if I put up insulation and "wall board" and it leaked, I'd probably never know WHERE it was leaking from.
So, my question is...In your video, you didn't actually show "HOW to install the foam board"???? You addressed the topic of the video in one sentence basically.
How is the foam board attached to the metal skin of the walls? Spray adhesive? If so, which type? Also, if so...My shop is small, I could probably get by just using actual "spray" adhesive cans...or should I use the roll on type?
Just a few screws to hold the foam board in place until the metal interior walls are put up.
Love the foam board, but it's not really suitable for wood sheathed buildings like I have. It allows condensation on the inside of the exterior sheeting, and prevents it from easily evaporating. And it's super hard to seal all the gaps, even with spray foam. What I discovered is mineral wool. It's stiffer and denser than fiberglass batt, and more fireproof, more insulating, and more durable. And it works really nice up against wood sheeting if you put a layer behind the foam board to fill the gaps and provide a vapor path to allow moisture to escape.
Also, for the garage doors, what I ended up doing is cutting the foam sections the full size of the panel, then cutting it down the middle. This lets you lever both halves into the slot at the top and bottom and press it flat in the middle, then just seal it with tape.
building science guy here, your right. Air sealing and drainage planes are just as important as insulation. if you can not get good air sealing you have to have vapor permeability
My spray foam for my 30’x60’x12’ @2” was only $7500 way cheaper then foam board. And I was told it is R7 per inch. And the install company filled and sealed all joints and the roof vent. But thanks for informative video.
My issue with foam is what you said, you won’t know about water issues. Furthermore, unlike mineral wool, water can’t permeate it. Moisture can dry through mineral wool and drywall. For me, as an 1800s stucco house owner, I want and need the exterior of the house to be able to dry through the walls. Frankly, I find mineral wool the superior product most of the time opposed to foam. There just aren’t any significant pros with foam over mineral wool 🤷♂️.
I use mineral wool most every job, having a fire barrier, insects and rodents to like it, but I haven't verified it and it breaths like u said, know they have mineral wool sheets for under concrete but I bet it would be great for walls, cost more than foam board but having fire proof would be worth it.
I did this before but I used foam to put it in place and cut it an inch smaller to tightly seal it in place zero draft all cracks and gaps filled I used windows and door foam to set it in place in Ontario in the dead of winter my highest gas bill was $234 I had a corner gas furnace hanging in the garage a gaS furnace in the house and 2 gas fireplaces one in the basement and one on the main floor it was always warm as I dont like to be cold
I have always called this smart man's spray foam or poor man's spray foam. Too many horror stories of some numb nut with a hangover mismixing the foam. Use a tablesaw to cut the foam and use 2 layers to offset the joints. Goes up fast and adds structurel support verses racking. Best buildings I have ever working in. No off gassing except the good stuff used as glue.
I saw a bunch of really expensive homes that got spray foam start to slowly kill its occupants.... homes were off gassing formaldehyde and the kids were getting messed up first. They had to REMOVE the entire roof and framing because anything stuck to the wood was toxic. That alone made me positive I would never spray from anything I lived in. Repairs are near impossible.
Ditto
@@bus-fun-addict 🤪
Electric fillet knife or electric carving knife works good to cut the foam.
Only thing I would spray would be the floor from the outside of an off the ground house or building. Then maybe little nooks and crannies you can't get the board.
To cut the foam board I turn the circular saw blade backwards and it cut that stuff so fast and so straight it was amazing
There are more benefits to spray foam than just R value. That being said, most heat leaves through the roof. Something like 90%. I had the roof spray foamed and then used foam board similar to this on the walls. No reason at all to waste money on the walls. A few suggestions……use spray foam adhesive (in a can, comes out like spray foam but less dense) to tack the boards to the backing and apply the edges as a sort of mortar. No gaps, no ugly yellow lines. Also, they make gray foam board. Looks much nicer then pink. And they also make gray spray foam in a can if you do need to seal cracks.
We’re putting corrugated metal on the walls. It’ll hide the pink.
90%? Where is that stat coming from? Note that heat, like water under pressure, will seek to escape via your weak points. So there is no surface that can truly be neglected.
I spray foamed my new home, it was the best investment made when insulating, sure it may cost a bit more then batting ? BUT in the long run, you'll be 110%satisfied you did..NO bugs can get in your home..NO mice can eat there way thru because of the material content of the foam...i also did my crawl space which is a 4 ft wall 10 thick foundation walls also the floor joists, that keep my floors warm. my floors are approx 2 inch thick total ...I paid $1.25 a sqft for the foam.....look into it, you won't regret it...
Lol mice can't get into it? I seriously doubt this claim
Another advantage of your method over spray foam is if you ever have to replace the metal siding/roofing due to damage it will come off easily vs being stuck to the spray foam. I'm going through all of these same challenges right now with my new building. Cost is a factor especially since the price of most building materials has easily doubled.
Thats why you use house wrap before you put up your metal...