STOP Building Walls with 2x6 Studs - Use this technique instead!

Поділитися
Вставка
  • Опубліковано 24 лис 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 1,3 тис.

  • @homesbysorensen
    @homesbysorensen  11 місяців тому +80

    Hi everyone! We're so thrilled that people have gotten to see this video and appreciate all of the thoughtful comments here! We were not expecting this video to get this kind of traction, but we're thrilled you're here! Check out the other videos on our Net Zero playlist here to see the foundation and basement building details as well.
    To address a couple of comments overall:
    We are a net zero builder, and we wanted to share our techniques that we use on a day-to-day basis to improve our homes energy efficiency, in Calgary, Alberta. We're always balancing using cost effective building techniques that improve energy efficiency, without impacting the overall constructionability.
    We like this system for exterior walls because framing out a wall with 2x4 studs, is something every framer knows how to do, and doesn't need specialty training to execute. The materials are also all readily available.
    Cost wise versus energy savings - the energy savings far outweigh the added costs of construction. Simply by exchanging one 2x6 wall for two 2x4 walls, we have only increased our lumber package by a small amount, and increased our framing labor marginally. We are now left with a wall system that is completely thermally broken, with substantially more insulation, that has very high constructionability.
    And, at the end of the day, we're making small changes to build a more energy efficient home. This one in particular is net zero.
    We'll also make a video going through the costs of this home in greater detail. Stay tuned for that!
    Our next video is coming out this Sunday! We'll be going through the Blower Door Test for this net zero home, and showing some of the extra steps we do to prepare there. Check that out to see how air tight we were able to get this net zero home!

    • @trentgay3437
      @trentgay3437 11 місяців тому +8

      How is the second story's load being transferred to the foundation? Do you need something different from normal traditional exterior foundation walls?

    • @Scott-sm9nm
      @Scott-sm9nm 11 місяців тому +4

      That double wall works excellent on selective interior walls as well for excellent "sound insulation". Home theater as an example.

    • @gomelteam
      @gomelteam 11 місяців тому +3

      Build incorrectly. Should be 24 on center staggered that way it illuminates all cold spots and works out to be 12 on center.

    • @Scott-sm9nm
      @Scott-sm9nm 11 місяців тому +6

      @@gomelteam there was 3" of space between the walls so your comments make no sense. Sometimes a 2x6 is used for the top/bottom plate then staggered 2x4 walls on each "side" of that. These are separate walls tho!

    • @946towguy2
      @946towguy2 11 місяців тому +2

      @@Scott-sm9nm Staggered stud on a common plate make more sense. I've also seen I-joists or truss studs used at certain intervals (such as every 4') to add strength

  • @greggyp647
    @greggyp647 2 місяці тому +85

    In 1980, I built a similar home ... 10" walls with 2x4 studs. Fast forward to a few years ago, I was gone for the winter (Northern Wisconsin, USA). I called the LP company to fill my gas pig, they never did. That year, we hit several weeks in a row of -30F. When I found out the tank had not been filled, I thought My plumbing was all ruined. It never froze in the house and I attribute that to the super insulation of the 10 inch exterior walls.

    • @curtisthomas-eg4th
      @curtisthomas-eg4th 2 місяці тому +7

      Insulation slows heat loss. No amount can eliminate it.

    • @ProleDaddy
      @ProleDaddy 2 місяці тому +7

      ​@@curtisthomas-eg4th That's my initial thought, though the heat from the day will warm the house for over the colder nights.

    • @justhecuke
      @justhecuke 2 місяці тому +1

      ​@@ProleDaddy insulation also stops the heat from getting into the home, so this doesn't make much sense.
      What you're referring to is heat capacity, which is a separate topic from insulation.

    • @benm12310
      @benm12310 2 місяці тому +6

      @@justhecukewindows allow the sun to heat up the inside of the house

    • @justhecuke
      @justhecuke 2 місяці тому

      @@benm12310 windows are also low-R holes in your real insulation. Windows may let in heat during the day, but they also let it out at night. And in a winter with such low temps, the sunlight might not warm things up much anyways.
      Again, the particular point about the heat a house collects during the day is a heat capacity point and not one of insulation.
      The specifics of why the OP's plumbing didn't freeze (or merely didn't break), depends a lot on the design. And proper winterization of a home involves draining your water pipes. We don't know what this guy did to maintain his home, but if he built his own home he probably knows enough to drain his pipes before leaving for winter.

  • @ralphriffle1126
    @ralphriffle1126 7 місяців тому +54

    Over the last fifty five years I have been in construction I have seen many new ideas being done. Each idea comes then goes, then comes again. Glad to see the merry go round of ideas still turning

    • @saltbeltupstateny4857
      @saltbeltupstateny4857 2 місяці тому +1

      Built my first house in 1969, like you I’ve seen all kinds of construction methods.. I’ve built a few with deep wall, one 12”, the customer was always happy with the fuel saving….

    • @crzy11000
      @crzy11000 2 місяці тому +1

      So in your opinion why did this system go by the way side? I think it has a lot of merit and is simple to implement.

    • @ralphriffle1126
      @ralphriffle1126 2 місяці тому +1

      The wall framing design is good. A lot of insulation can be packed in there. Having a sound brake is good. Also makes a good pipe and duct chase.

    • @MyFortressConstruction
      @MyFortressConstruction Місяць тому +1

      @@crzy11000 It didn't, it's just not as cheap as traditional. Some people want to spend an extra 10k on framing/insulation. Others on a wine cooler and 98" TV. As a builder I try to steer people towards better building science and quality, but the pocketbook is what determines which extra goodies people get.

  • @thohangst
    @thohangst 7 місяців тому +13

    I saw this demonstrated as a system at a NAHB convention about 28ish years ago. It seems so obvious and brilliant for cold climates.
    My sensei Russ was obsessed with energy efficiency. His house is a pair of earth sheltered domes, connected. Kind of genius.

  • @ralphpeischl2622
    @ralphpeischl2622 10 місяців тому +47

    I’m a home energy freak for years. The home I built for myself I used 2X6s with R19 batting . I often thought of doing exactly what you did on my outside walls so any plumbing and electrical would be in an interior wall by itself. Fantastic idea you have.

    • @richdobbs6595
      @richdobbs6595 2 місяці тому

      The plumbing and electrical can snake between the walls (assuming that the plumbing is PEX and anything like drain pipes are interior walls. Scandinavian technique is to make the second wall horizontal, some thermal bridging, but you could probably stick an inch of rigid foam at the cross over point. Vapor barrier is place on top of the outer wall, so no breaks except for windows and doors.

  • @Gypsy2057
    @Gypsy2057 11 місяців тому +74

    I was working with an old-timer in the early 1980's when he showed me that method. Back then nobody cared that much about energy efficiency but that was how they built walk in freezers. It makes for pretty deep window cells but does make for really high R-factors. Thanks for posting this very informative video.

    • @renof2505
      @renof2505 11 місяців тому +5

      Didn't think of the windows but was sure the thick wall was going to have an effect somewhere. That could be dealt with by stepping down to 2x6 near the windows to have sort of a shadow box effect.

    • @hiris1903
      @hiris1903 10 місяців тому +15

      Deep window wells are great if you're a plant lover :)

    • @C0braChicken2
      @C0braChicken2 10 місяців тому +8

      @@hiris1903 I'm sure the cats love them as well.

    • @--_DJ_--
      @--_DJ_-- 10 місяців тому +10

      @@C0braChicken2 We moved from a place with nice big window sills to an older place with none. The cat still tries to get into the windows, when they are open he makes it work, when they are closed he just bounces off. He tries either way.

    • @hektor6766
      @hektor6766 9 місяців тому +1

      @@hiris1903 All kinds of neat traditional treatments: coffered casings, bi-fold shutters, side bookcases, seats, french doors,..

  • @michaeljuers574
    @michaeljuers574 11 місяців тому +259

    We remodeled a home that was built exacting like this. It was about 10 years old. When we opened up an exterior wall the cellulose had settled between 10 to 12 inches at the top of the wall. I hope your stuff works better than theirs.

    • @morninboy
      @morninboy 11 місяців тому +41

      In the video I saw the way the mesh was installed incorrectly. It should be pulled taught and stapled to both sides of the stud with staples every two inches. The cellulose then gets DENSE PACKED so it does not settle. A completed wall should be bulging with the packed insulation.

    • @13squared2009
      @13squared2009 11 місяців тому +44

      We remodeled an early 90’s home with this dense packed cellulose. It was absolutely packed top to bottom 30+ years later. Home was warm and quiet as be - the original home had the same dense packed cellulose used as a sound barrier in rooms that should be quiet. I.e. between the master bedroom and living room. Loved that home!

    • @trentgay3437
      @trentgay3437 11 місяців тому +14

      The house my grandfather built had blow in insulation and I could get it up to 90° with the fireplace 2400sf ranch style.

    • @geoh7777
      @geoh7777 11 місяців тому +15

      @@13squared2009 Sounds really great.
      However, if in a hurricane or tornado region, I'd rather consider one of the concrete wall systems now available for home construction as long as it is virtually wind pressure proof.

    • @abacab87
      @abacab87 11 місяців тому +9

      It does come down to how it was blown in place. I've opened walls after a couple years when it was put in place wet, and it didn't settle. It may not settle if dense packed dry. If it was loose I'm surprised it only dropped 12 inches, but maybe it was partially packed dense. It still wouldn't hurt to have a way to top it off after a few years, or to be able to check it. If you have vinyl siding it would be easy to check it from the outside.

  • @hobbyguy79
    @hobbyguy79 11 місяців тому +28

    Just looked at my local HD here in Calgary 🇨🇦
    8' 2x4 - $3.98 × 2 = $7.96
    8' 2x6 - $6.98
    8' 2x8 - $13.22
    8' 2x10 - $16.66
    So, for a build where you are looking to maximize your exterior wall thickness and insulation, the double 2x4 exterior wall is a much less expensive option, even with the additional labor, AND it gives you a complete thermal break from inside to out.
    And again, just talking about the exterior walls here and not every wall in the building.

    • @williamwchuang
      @williamwchuang 10 місяців тому +17

      But you can also do exterior insulation that doesn't take up interior space. Two inches adds R-10 and it's a complete thermal break. Put the thickness on the outside where it isn't taking up space over your foundation and zoning codes limit the size of your foundation.

    • @fredwoods-o3g
      @fredwoods-o3g 6 місяців тому +5

      It's a little weirder than that. 2x4 studs are 16" OC, 2x6 studs are 24" OC. Looks like 16" OC was required. Can't tell if the inner wall can be classified as structural (supported by sill plate tied to footer). In some locations, if the inner wall is attached to a slab, it has to be able to "float" to allow for heaving/settling, or can't be attached to ceiling structure. Cool idea, but video is missing some engineering details.

    • @williammoore6953
      @williammoore6953 6 місяців тому +3

      @@fredwoods-o3g Based on the joist for the second floor resting on the interior top plate, it would appear the inner framing is load bearing. Not for the roof as that is supported by the outer "wall". It is an interesting concept for colder zones. I am in Va., so not really an issue in this milder zone. Please take my comment with a grain of salt as I have never built in the aformentioned cold zones.

    • @fredwoods-o3g
      @fredwoods-o3g 6 місяців тому

      @@williammoore6953 I looked at one of the earlier videos, and it looks like the concrete foundation walls are shy of 10 inches wide. That may cause some interesting issues after about 10 years. With an upstairs, even 2x6 framing needs to be 16 OC, so the math I looked at for volume of wood v insulation isn't useful. If you could use 2x10 24 OC framing, you would end up with more insulation than 2 walls of 2x4 16 OC framing.

    • @williammoore6953
      @williammoore6953 6 місяців тому +2

      @@fredwoods-o3g If that inner wall base plate is not over the foundation, that could get very interesting, as you say. We put a gun safe on a second floor once and TOLD the owner it was a very bad idea, less than 6 months later, we moved the safe to the concrete slab of the carport. He had to replace one load bearing wall, the upstairs floor joists for that room and the dry wall work.

  • @edgratz3425
    @edgratz3425 11 місяців тому +66

    I built a lake home in northern Wisconsin with double 2x4 studs but staggered them and used a standard 2x6 header for firebreak. We used blown in damp cellulose for insulation. That place is incredilby quiet and I believe we have a full R-22 wall instead of ending up with R-17 when using 2x6 and R-22 fiberglass. The damp cellulose packs a lot better than dry cellulose blown in, but you have to wait a few days for the moisture level to drop before covering. The damp stuff stays in place without the added net necessary for dry cellulose.

    • @schlz69
      @schlz69 11 місяців тому +5

      yep, gota have that fire break.

    • @melvinrexwinkle1510
      @melvinrexwinkle1510 11 місяців тому

      Make that cellulose really dry, so it will stop a fire from coming the outside world?

    • @CoopAssembly
      @CoopAssembly 10 місяців тому +5

      I've seen motel walls made with 2x6 headers/footers and staggered studs (to either side). That will be helpful for sound isolation, going down into the bass. (That's why they did it). I've also seen a front wall of an old house with 2 feet of space in it, and it traps highway sounds really effectively.

    • @schlz69
      @schlz69 10 місяців тому +3

      @@CoopAssemblycommercial is different, engineering’s stamp prints, and take the liability of things are outside of adopted code. They are still required to meet fire barrier requirements

    • @ThisOldMan-ya472
      @ThisOldMan-ya472 10 місяців тому +2

      Are there any studies on cellulose settling over 10 years, or more?

  • @michaelmccotter4293
    @michaelmccotter4293 11 місяців тому +13

    I dealt with the thermal bridging issue in a similar fasion.
    I used 8" timbers for the main timber framing utilizing post and beam construction .
    The inner and outer studs are installed parallel to the face and back of the main timbers. I installed the exterior 2x4" studs horizontal, and
    I installed 1x4" interior studs vertical. I Planked exterior using 1x12 pine for siding installed horizontal, boards with batons.
    Insulated with 5.5" inches of opposing layers of EPS foam board. R-5 per inch gives an R-28 wall.
    Opposing layers of foam board makes a quiet and well sealed wall.
    Cellulose has at best a 2.2 to 3.8 R value.
    But generally settles as much as 12"s over time. Settling reduces it's R value.
    As it settles it becomes more dense and R value suffers. The top of the wall cavity may have 6" to 12" of no insulation within a couple years.
    Though my 5.5" insulation is not R 40, I think a solid R-28 is pretty respectable.
    With the foam board between the studs the walls are dense and solid. I'm certain people are cringing, yet my comfort and cost to heat this home,
    in South Central Alaska confirms my design. Everyone who visited the site, or visits, remarks at how stout the post and beam construction seems to appear. Rolled right through our 7.2 earthquake like a Cadillac over a highway of down pillows. With triple pane windows we live quiet and cozy and cheap.

  • @johnwade9963
    @johnwade9963 10 місяців тому +13

    You should look at "T" stud. They're made in Canada. They come as 2x8 and 2x6. It is double studed like yours but has criss crossed dowels conecting them. They com either wood only or prefilled with insulation. R value of 25+. It would do the same with less labor...

  • @michaeldecker2725
    @michaeldecker2725 11 місяців тому +98

    While the insulating aspect is fascinating Having an open cavity from 1st to 2nd floor reminds me of balloon framing that was popular at one time. The problem is it was a chimney for fires. By not running your floor joists to the outer walls there is no containment between floors. I would imagine fire code would dictate fire stops installed in the chase areas to prevent this from happening regardless of fire retardant insulation.

    • @jayinmass
      @jayinmass 11 місяців тому +13

      Exactly, was wondering if it was still allowed for US building codes.

    • @EchoMeToo
      @EchoMeToo 11 місяців тому +5

      The insulation should prevent fire from spreading, right?

    • @TedTedness-wu4vb
      @TedTedness-wu4vb 11 місяців тому +6

      @@EchoMeToo Roxsul maybe, pink ahhh yuck.

    • @MrMunchman69
      @MrMunchman69 11 місяців тому +10

      This is what my first thoughts were. I worked on a house like this.
      There were 2 problems we were addressing. 1 squirrels being able to go anywhere in the house inside the walls, floors and ceiling. The 2nd was an unexpected situation, the ladder went through the outer wall (west side of house), all the moisture built up, soaked up and rotted the plywood from the inside. Prevailing winds pushing the moisture to that side of the building being cause and effect.

    • @kondasixtytoo487
      @kondasixtytoo487 11 місяців тому +7

      You would be looking for a fire block not fire stop(both defined terms in the code). Insulation is a listed fire block, so as long as the cavity is completely filled it would be code compliant. The concern would be if the insulation settled or slipped in the 3” gap, which is unlikely with batts. Not sure how the cellulose settles though

  • @GeorgeKaye-l2e
    @GeorgeKaye-l2e 9 місяців тому +9

    I built recording studio walls this way for sound proofing. We hung a double layer of sheetrock on one side to shift the resonant frequencies of the walls away from each other. Worked great!

    • @Inwallstore
      @Inwallstore 2 місяці тому

      Yup, home theaters too!

    • @dean9498
      @dean9498 18 днів тому

      Same here. Segmented walls for soundproofing is the way to go.

  • @jeffhack6839
    @jeffhack6839 10 місяців тому +4

    I designed my own version of this.
    2x8 wall. Nice window sills.
    2 inch gap and spray foam which gives my exterior walls a total of R35.
    Very cost effective.
    Cheers.

  • @AlAndValOffGrid
    @AlAndValOffGrid 11 місяців тому +10

    Built ours with 2x6 24" OC BUT, we covered the exterior with 1" foil-faced Polyiso sheets and foil taped seams in a total package wrap of the walls and roof with no gaps. So we had a thermal barrier around the exterior so the studs would not allow pass-through of heat/cold. We covered the Polyiso with Zip siding and roofing, taped and sealed for a moisture/vapor barrier. We then had the interior spray foam insulated with 4.5 inches of foam. We only heat with a small wood stove and even at 40 below, the house is usually too warm if we keep the stove going. The siding is simple board/batten and the roof is metal on furring strips so we have an air gap between zip roofing and the metal.

    • @deerhunter7482
      @deerhunter7482 10 місяців тому +2

      Excellent choice with a downspray on the sheet rock !

    • @kerrryschultz2904
      @kerrryschultz2904 9 місяців тому +2

      So your wall cavity and exterior is about an R30. And your frame with the polyiso is about R13. I use R 1 per inch of wood and polyiso is after gasing about R 7 per inch. Well done.

    • @abacab87
      @abacab87 6 місяців тому +2

      I did that with a 2x4 wall, and so I got my 20 R value. Very efficient and no need to order larger sills or door frames.

  • @donbell8187
    @donbell8187 9 місяців тому +15

    This is a common technique for building sound proof walls in recording studios. Very effective!

    • @Inwallstore
      @Inwallstore 2 місяці тому +1

      We suggest this in high end home theaters too. Much more effective and less expensive than "trying" more insulation without the air break.

  • @jerryf609
    @jerryf609 11 місяців тому +65

    It is not just the cost of the lumber. You have framing costs as well. And increased foundation basement floor roofing taxes for larger footprint etc. So please calculate entire costs and return on investment. Also be aware that there is no totally effective moisture and air barrier. You will get condensation wthin the wall structure.

    • @mrcryptozoic817
      @mrcryptozoic817 11 місяців тому +4

      Right! The finished interior dimension will be noticeably smaller so you will have to pour a non-standard footprint. And I think you will have to use at least an inch of closed cell foam (more expensive).
      Wouldn't framing with SIPs be better?

    • @kenchow8213
      @kenchow8213 11 місяців тому +2

      "there is no totally effective moisture and air barrier", this is why you must use a vapour open WRB (e.g., Solitex Mento 1000) and smart vapour control layer (e.g., INTELLO Plus) on the interior wall.

    • @paulmaxwell8851
      @paulmaxwell8851 10 місяців тому +5

      Nope. You're repeating an urban myth, which says that warm buildings have moisture problems. Read Fine Homebuilding and the Green Building Advisor for explanations as to why this is only a myth.

    • @garretcook8169
      @garretcook8169 9 місяців тому

      @@paulmaxwell8851 It's absolutely avoidable, but it's not an "Urban myth". You can easily get moisture problems in "tight" homes from spray foam and vapor barriers not done correctly. A quick search on UA-cam and you'll find plenty of homeowners complaining of dripping walls. Don't call it a "Myth", call it something that is easily avoidable if done correctly.

    • @tommak6516
      @tommak6516 9 місяців тому +8

      It looks like it might be a condensation trap to me also. Especially with the particle board exterior sheeting. The commenter that talks about 'Urban Myths' needs to study dew points instead of some low level fluff ra ra bs.

  • @davidribeca1745
    @davidribeca1745 11 місяців тому +113

    Your missed the labor cost to build the second wall in your 60% figures. You also didn’t mention extention jambs cost on windows and doors and that extra labor factored into the 60% cost.

    • @MurDocInc
      @MurDocInc 11 місяців тому +11

      Compare to what? 2x6 plus 4+" exterior insulation? Rigid insulation is expensive. The long screws to install it are expensive. 3/4 sheathing just in case you miss the stud is expensive. Sealing window bucks is also expensive. Believe me anything comparable to the r value of double stud wall is going far more expensive and complicated.

    • @davidribeca1745
      @davidribeca1745 11 місяців тому +8

      @MurDocInc Had we had all that information and not just the cost of the" 2x6s" in your explanation in the video I probably would have agreed with you .

    • @dimefield36
      @dimefield36 9 місяців тому +8

      As a piece work batt insulator I love the idea of 3 R12 layers $$$

    • @willbender4295
      @willbender4295 9 місяців тому +14

      I was thinking the same thing. Labor cost and extension jambs weren't mentioned. I've seen this method and the reason it was used was because of noise suppression. When the studs aren't touching or one solid piece, sound vibration is greatly reduced especially with insulation. He never mentioned this

    • @jimwong8056
      @jimwong8056 6 місяців тому +17

      Thicker walls mean smaller house.

  • @jeffsavage7135
    @jeffsavage7135 10 місяців тому +11

    In many places, code is still a single 2×4 wall. Thermal break is not usually part of code. The reason 2×6 walls are used is to attain the necessary R-value required by code. The 2×6 wall is the cheapest too. Now if you want cheaper than this double wall while maintaining the thermal break, use a single 2×4 and then completely sheet the exterior in rigid foam insulation.

    • @A-Sidhu
      @A-Sidhu 10 місяців тому +3

      Probably shouldn't use a 2x4 exterior loadbearing wall in a quality house. Think about mechanical penetrations in a 2x4 wall. Exterior Rigid Foam will require extra skills and labour from the installers. However, exterior insulation is superior than a double wall system, especially if you use vapour-permeable rock wool insulation.

    • @jamesready5
      @jamesready5 10 місяців тому +3

      Ontario (Canada) building code it’s now required to have exterior rigid foam insulation for thermal bridging.
      2x4 is structurally sound for framing.

    • @A-Sidhu
      @A-Sidhu 10 місяців тому +2

      @jamesready5 2x4 is structurally sound but a 2x6 is much better if you have any mechanical penetrations. The cost difference is not much either. Build higher quality always. 👌

    • @jeffsavage7135
      @jeffsavage7135 10 місяців тому +2

      @A-Sidhu depending on design and location size constraints, in very small houses inches count and the difference between 2×4 and 2×6 could feel like it is a much greater loss of interior space than the two inches actually measures.

    • @jamesready5
      @jamesready5 10 місяців тому +3

      @@A-Sidhu For sure. And in Ontario 2x6 is still required for code for the R value.
      You could use thinner if you could achieve the R value required by code, but I agree, once you stick an electrical box in a 2x4 wall you don’t have much insulation behind it.
      And if your using anything but spray foam in that situation you better have and insulation and vapour barrier contractor that cares otherwise you’ll probably have gaps and energy loss.

  • @Riley_1955
    @Riley_1955 11 місяців тому +14

    Coming from an old retired carpenter I totally agree that your wall is way better than a 2x6 outside wall ..... I my self would even make the gap at least 5 or 6 inches ..... Nice video.

    • @williamwchuang
      @williamwchuang 10 місяців тому +5

      You would be losing usable square footage, there's an increased fire risk from not having fire breaks, if you are in zone 4 or above you risk condensation without an exterior insulation thermal break, and overall it makes sense to stick with 2x6 or 2x8 and add the insulation on the outside. Like you have a three inch gap here between the double internal walls you are packing with cellulose (3.5R/inch) when you can use that on the outside with polyiso (6.5R/inch).

    • @tommak6516
      @tommak6516 9 місяців тому +3

      If your an old retired carpenter than chances are you never constructed anything like this.

    • @crzy11000
      @crzy11000 2 місяці тому

      @@tommak6516 depends where your from. I live in Saskatchewan Canada and my dads friend built his home like this in early 1980's He is now in his 80's

  • @SK13SFS
    @SK13SFS 10 місяців тому +2

    Nice to see a Canadian Company revisiting the double wall system. We used this idea back in the early to mid 70's with great success. We actually lived in and owned a house with these type of 10" walls. This is getting closer to the Canadian building code changes coming in 2030. Now you need to work on fixing the thermal bridges at the top and bottom of the exterior walls and using an insulation like rock wool or spray in closed cell foam insulation to stop the gravitational settling that the lesser quality fiberglass insulations always do (except the paper backed pink stuff).

  • @williamdrake2315
    @williamdrake2315 11 місяців тому +8

    Great idea. Great return for your investment. I lived in a condo and they did this with the common wall between units. They were concerned with noise transmission. Never heard the neighbors or their kids running around.

  • @InvisibleCitizen
    @InvisibleCitizen 5 місяців тому +2

    While i have been using this double stud wall design for decades however I stagger the studs halfway between each other. This way I can use stardard stud alley insulation bats in each wall. The outer wall get no vapor barrier batten and the inner wall gets the vapor barrier. Cheers!

  • @arthurperrea3714
    @arthurperrea3714 11 місяців тому +3

    I built a double wall construction but I off set the inside wall studding 12 inch which gave me less thermo bridging except the windows and doors I kept in line with the outside

  • @SophiaAphrodite
    @SophiaAphrodite 2 місяці тому +1

    I am doing this on the windward side of my 1887 home I am renovating. I am putting a gap plus a 2x4 wall to make the side that gets the most cold over insulated. Granted my house has ACTUAL 2x4s so this will give me 10 inches of a barrier from the siding.

  • @michaelkistner6286
    @michaelkistner6286 10 місяців тому +6

    I was a manager for a restoration company and can tell you that if you get water in that cellulose packed wall you're going to have to remove the insulation in order to get things dry. Mold loves cellulose since it's essentially paper. You could hire an insulation contractor to reinstall it, but I imagine the cost of doing little patch jobs in a finished space isn't going to be covered by your insurance company. At the very least I'd make sure it was covered when I purchased insurance.

    • @michaelkistner6286
      @michaelkistner6286 5 місяців тому

      Yep. In addition your moisture barrier has to be installed perfectly, at least in cold areas, or you're going to get frost inside the cavity which will melt when things warm up and now you're got all three things mold needs in order to grow-- food, warmth, and water.

  • @mikewarfel7511
    @mikewarfel7511 10 місяців тому +10

    I built this design 35 yesrs ago with 12 invh heel height om the ranch we've living in. Works extremely well

    • @steveschultz300
      @steveschultz300 9 місяців тому

      What part of the country are you in? Would something like this wall system work in the Texas climate?

    • @kerrryschultz2904
      @kerrryschultz2904 9 місяців тому

      @@steveschultz300 Anytime you increase the potential R value, you reduce your heating or cooling load. In Texas were you predominately have a cooling load your vapor barrier needs to go to the side with the heat, which would be on the outside studs.A 11/2 inch layer of closed cell foam would make a very good vapor barrier. Your windows are the weakest link in the chain.

    • @101sabre
      @101sabre 8 місяців тому

      Triple pane windows,@@kerrryschultz2904

  • @neeosstuff7540
    @neeosstuff7540 11 місяців тому +71

    It looks like their isn't an effective fire block between the bottom half and top half of the wall. So fire could spread much faster.

    • @Freight_Train
      @Freight_Train 11 місяців тому +13

      I was thinking that too. I think it would be a code violation here.

    • @andrewdalgarno5322
      @andrewdalgarno5322 11 місяців тому +12

      I was noticing that too. Balloon framing was eliminated in most building codes due to the lack of fire barrier. Would definitely be better with some type of barrier at the floor level.

    • @bobpourri9647
      @bobpourri9647 11 місяців тому +12

      Same here. I worked with an electrician on roughs, and we had to be sure to plug our little holes with packed insulation when we drilled through a fire-block to run Romex. These walls have no block at all: Like old balloon construction.

    • @morninboy
      @morninboy 11 місяців тому +16

      The dense packed cellulos is a fire block. It is treated with borates and noncombustable.

    • @stich1960
      @stich1960 11 місяців тому +3

      Sense pack or rockwholl qualifies

  • @sebastiencharette6637
    @sebastiencharette6637 11 місяців тому +2

    Was working on a house from the 50s. It had 6" top and bottom plate with staggered 2x4 studs to each side of the wall. So 24" on each side to mount drywall. but it had less transfer of noise and temperature. All inside walls and exterior walls were done like that

    • @brianedminster7556
      @brianedminster7556 3 місяці тому

      Back in the early 70's I helped my dad build an addition across the back of our house, to add a family room and bedroom. We built the interior wall between them this way, to keep the bedroom quiet, even though adjacent to the family room. Worked great.

  • @davej7458
    @davej7458 11 місяців тому +33

    Three questions.
    How do you do fire blocking when necessary?
    How do you do the framing around window and door openings?
    How do you do top plates particularly where trusses or rafters intersect?

    • @OKOKOKOKOKOKOK-zn2fy
      @OKOKOKOKOKOKOK-zn2fy 10 місяців тому

      Good questions. Nothing is made to fit this wall thickness.

    • @PeroMenalo
      @PeroMenalo 10 місяців тому +1

      @@OKOKOKOKOKOKOK-zn2fy for the windows, you can easily, if needed, use plywood to make sils before the windows or doors go in, it will also give you large lips on the inside and outside.
      I would even make the argument that having a chase wall like that is good for your duct work, since you give them adequate space and enough insulation around them as well

    • @A-Sidhu
      @A-Sidhu 10 місяців тому +2

      the insulation would be the fire block. Or use Rockwool if you need to

    • @paulmaxwell8851
      @paulmaxwell8851 10 місяців тому +2

      Correct. The cellulose IS the fireblock.@@A-Sidhu

    • @paulmaxwell8851
      @paulmaxwell8851 10 місяців тому +1

      We build plywood window bucks. Child's play. If you've ever built a log home or a straw bale home this is a very familiar technique.

  • @eengkb
    @eengkb 8 місяців тому +1

    This is how I did my upstairs. I have a house from the 1930s. So I left the original studs, insulated, then ran 1" rigid foam then built an interior wall. That let me fix the crooked as ass walls because back in the day no one used a plumb bob or a level? Then I re-ran electrical, ducts and plumbing on the inside wall, insulated and vapor barriered. I lost a bit of floor space but the rooms are rather large and it was more of an experiment to see how much a difference it would actually make.

  • @ChrisR1270
    @ChrisR1270 10 місяців тому +6

    If you're looking for a certain size room, the foundation has to be increased in size to accommodate the additional framing. That and the increased cost of more wall lumber and rafters which increases the cost substantially. Not to mention the added labor cost. Perhaps, if I were building the home myself, it may be worth the extra expense.

    • @renalshomlmes338
      @renalshomlmes338 10 місяців тому

      Not really. Yes it will cost more, but not that much % wise. Estimate a house cost, then all for another for a 1ft bigger or smaller. Won't be that much overall.

    • @markwriter2698
      @markwriter2698 2 місяці тому

      If you build it, you’ll certainly come out ahead. I like the idea of quiet too. I live so far south I simply went with 2x6 because the windows are no where near wall R value.

    • @richdobbs6595
      @richdobbs6595 Місяць тому

      I'm not sure, but wouldn't the interior wall be non-load bearing, so it shouldn't ever require the foundation to be increased. I doubt that weight of interior walls has any impact on foundation design.

  • @donaldteuber8588
    @donaldteuber8588 9 місяців тому +2

    This method not only provides a better thermal barrier ,it also gives a superior s.t.f. sound transmission factor. So.. warmer in the winter..cooler in the summer.. and quieter year rough. A win/win situation.

    • @richdobbs6595
      @richdobbs6595 Місяць тому

      Thermal break, but the sheathing still provides a condensing surface. I hope that I can afford external insulation so my sheathing isn't a condensing surface.

  • @clutteredchicagogarage2720
    @clutteredchicagogarage2720 11 місяців тому +4

    I like this wall assembly anywhere that you have detached homes. I live in a big city in a narrow row house (terraced home), and it would be unfortunate to lose a few inches on each side if I were to remodel my home and add insulation. But if you have a few meters around your house on all sides then I think it makes more sense to build double walls with a proper thermal break.
    If i were doing this, instead of using cellulose, I would build with separate layers of insulation to make it easy to run mechanicals through the gap between the 2x4 walls. I think that’s a huge benefit of this wall assembly. You can run plumbing and electrical in between the 2x4 walls without drilling into studs.
    I think the ideal system would be to spray-foam the outer wall and then fill the cavity and also the inner wall with mineral wool batt insulation. Yes, that would be more expensive than cellulose, but it would perform well, and I think it would make it easier to run, fix or remodel mechanicals. The sound dampening on that system would be amazing.

    • @Bill.Pearson
      @Bill.Pearson 11 місяців тому

      You don't need to insulate the common walls. The sides of your house have heated houses on the other side of them. There's no reason to insulate your house from a heated neighbor's house. Just insulate the walls that are exposed to the outside air.

    • @MurDocInc
      @MurDocInc 11 місяців тому

      That doesn`t make sense, mechanical rough ins are done before insulation. It's harder to run and cut batts around mechanicals, cellulose will fill in those spaces way faster and easier.
      Also thick walls you want to keep vapor open cause they can trap moisture so you want any moisture to dry out, spray foam would trap moisture and possibly cause rot.
      Cellulose also manages moisture better than other insulations, it's fire proof and lot cheaper than rockwool.

  • @QBRX
    @QBRX 11 місяців тому +7

    In my house we separated the 2 studs with 1 inch polystyrene, then blew in cellulose behind it and put in fiberglass batts in the inside wall. Seems to work pretty well.

    • @jamesdavison2416
      @jamesdavison2416 11 місяців тому +1

      i like that head-space ... good thinking

    • @LuminairPrime
      @LuminairPrime 22 дні тому

      Pretty brilliant use of resources 👍

  • @richvail7551
    @richvail7551 10 місяців тому +12

    With thicker walls makes smaller rooms, this means that most people will want to build a wider foundation to compensate for the loss of room. So adding more concrete, sheeting, shingles and siding plus hardware I’m thinking the price of the studs will probably favour the 2x6. But I’m sure the gain in heat loss prevention would make up that difference in the long term.
    Definitely something to consider but certainly not a simple decision.

    • @AbbreviatedReviews
      @AbbreviatedReviews 10 місяців тому

      I was curious, and I'm not sure about the math, but for a 2000 sq ft house with 6 inch studs it would be 90 sq ft of stud space and a 10 inch double stud base would be 150 sq ft of total stud space.
      So across the whole house space you're losing 60 sq ft. As a single room, that's like losing a bathroom, but spread across like 9 or 10 rooms, I don't think it would be too bad.

    • @richvail7551
      @richvail7551 10 місяців тому

      @@AbbreviatedReviews It’s not bad, but I think most people would want the extra bathroom option and without doing the cost analysis, I’m pretty sure they’d just put the extra footage into the foundation thinking what’s another few feet gonna cost.
      I’m thinking it will be a noticeable amount.

    • @williamwchuang
      @williamwchuang 10 місяців тому

      Or he could use exterior insulation with an r value of 5 per inch that doesn't take up foundation space like everyone else. 2x6 is R-19 and 2" exterior is another 10. Exterior foam probably stops air and water better than cellulose.

  • @r.l.royalljr.3905
    @r.l.royalljr.3905 11 місяців тому +11

    If the 3" gap runs completely open from the first floor past the second floor and into the attic, does that cause a potential fire hazard since there's no firebreak at the top plate anymore?

    • @Cadaverine1990
      @Cadaverine1990 11 місяців тому +1

      This could easily be solved with a Polystyrene barrier at the top of the floors, but yes as they were described there would airflow allowed. However it would be very minor as fiberglass batt would still slow the airflow by 60-75%

    • @Cadaverine1990
      @Cadaverine1990 11 місяців тому

      This could easily be solved with a Polystyrene barrier at the top of the floors, but yes as they were described there would airflow allowed. However it would be very minor as fiberglass batt would still slow the airflow by 60-75%

    • @phillatshaw7219
      @phillatshaw7219 11 місяців тому +4

      Polystyrene is not an acceptable fire breaker. That would actually feed the fire.

    • @MurDocInc
      @MurDocInc 11 місяців тому +1

      Cellulose is fire proof.

    • @KeithOlson
      @KeithOlson 10 місяців тому +2

      @@MurDocInc "Cellulose is fire proof."
      Slight correction: Cellulose is *HIGHLY* flammable, but the ammonium sulfate and borate that it is treated with almost completely negates that.

  • @dbarr8261
    @dbarr8261 11 місяців тому +4

    He didnt mention it, but plumbers love it too. 10" of space to hide a lot plumbing and less chance of nailing into pipes.

  • @burnshirtvalleyfarm6337
    @burnshirtvalleyfarm6337 10 місяців тому +2

    You need to consider dew point. If its 75 inside and 20 degrees outside there will be a gradient of descending temperature in your wall. At some point there will be a dew point where the warmer more humid air crosses the temp threshold where the air temp can no longer hold the water as vapor and it will condense. I build with 2/6 studs and put two layers of roxul comfort board 80 seams staggered. This helps to put the dew point in a non organic layer and keeps the wood sheathing warm to avoid rot. When you net large cavities you need to net the face and net back to make isolated pockets otherwise you keep blowing the Cellulose down the wall and dont get and even pack.

  • @crabkilla
    @crabkilla 11 місяців тому +28

    LABOR LABOR LABOR - who cares what the stud costs. Let's see the window buck detail on this 10-inch wall. I would use Zip-R sheathing on 2x6 walls. One pass for labor, thermal breaks, and airtightness. The key here is "one pass" for labor. Lastly Zip R is a simpler system to install versus exterior sheathing, tyvek and exterior insulation and has far less installation failure and quality issues from said labor

    • @approots
      @approots 11 місяців тому +1

      Slap some plywood around the openings? The window/door bucks for exterior insulation are more difficult to install and waterproof I'd think.

    • @Central-oregon-vernacular
      @Central-oregon-vernacular 3 місяці тому +1

      Exactly my thought. The extra cost of insulated zip panels is easily offset by the extra materials and labor for double wall construction. The other benefit is much better air control.

    • @crabkilla
      @crabkilla 3 місяці тому +1

      @@approots window buck details for zip R are easy. The advantage of Zip R is that the insulation is on the backside of the Zip

  • @matthewbattie1022
    @matthewbattie1022 11 місяців тому +1

    Ive been a builder my entire life, and I am very impressed by this level of care in design and build!

    • @davecruz9893
      @davecruz9893 11 місяців тому

      Maybe if you build ONE house a year...and have an unlimited budget....Please your being banboozled here but good...

    • @matthewbattie1022
      @matthewbattie1022 11 місяців тому

      It's not a technique for all enviroments, but many of the places I have built are so cold it would save you money to build like this. I often find 2x6's to cost more than two 2x4's anyway. @@davecruz9893

    • @kerrryschultz2904
      @kerrryschultz2904 9 місяців тому +2

      @@davecruz9893 So says the guy that doesn't think about life cycle costs of heating a building.

    • @brianmcdowell7377
      @brianmcdowell7377 8 місяців тому

      Is your house built this way?
      Didnt think so, go get another booster shot 😮​@@kerrryschultz2904

  • @brucemccauley8887
    @brucemccauley8887 11 місяців тому +9

    I wonder why the studs are lined up on both walls and not staggered to the best distance on inside and outside, say 16" o.c. from inside corner for Gyp. Bd. and 16" o.c. from exterior corner for siding on outside. Is there a reason they are lined up?

    • @paperburn
      @paperburn 11 місяців тому

      His second story joist have to line up with the download. But as just from an insulation perspective yes offset would be better

    • @brucemccauley8887
      @brucemccauley8887 11 місяців тому +2

      Joists don't have to line up with the studs, the double top plate carries that load to the wall stud assembly

    • @paperburn
      @paperburn 11 місяців тому

      on one section I only saw a single plate@@brucemccauley8887

  • @dennissmith5837
    @dennissmith5837 9 місяців тому +1

    Also, in the late 70s a construction company built 12 inch walls, call an envelope of house. The outside wall was 204 with the insulation going up and down and it was a 3 1/2 inch gap with the insulation laying on edge, filling the opening, and then another 2 x 4 wall on the inside. The vapor barrier was on the outside of the inside wall to try to combat a moisture problem. A number of years later some of those houses had been remodeled and they found mold and several of the walls. I would recommend anybody looking to try something like that to check with a current engineer or architect for advice on that.
    Also something I forgot, the space between my inside wall, and my outside stud wall was a perfect place to run the wiring without having to drill through the studs and I did not have to worry about hanging a picture or anything on the wall and hitting the electrical wiring because it was a full 3 1/2 inches away from the exterior of the house.

  • @Thatsmessedupman
    @Thatsmessedupman 11 місяців тому +9

    Is the second floor truss only sitting on a single plate 2x4 wall(your inner layer of the exterior wall) I am trying to understand if the load is transferring . If the inner and outer exterior wall are not tied together and the second floor is only on the inner wall then is your max load rating based on 2x4?

    • @evanhughes3027
      @evanhughes3027 11 місяців тому +2

      It looked to me like a double plate 2x4 wall is taking the second floor load.

    • @alphajunky
      @alphajunky 11 місяців тому

      Also, the inner 2x4 wall has no sheathing. What gives it any racking strength? I suppose there is no wind blowing against the inner wall. But wouldn't any shaking eventually try to collapse the parallelogram if there are no diagonals?

  • @budlite8207
    @budlite8207 9 місяців тому +1

    We have some commercial buildings that use this method in noisy areas such as along train tracks and hiways. Excellent for sound.

  • @lemmegetone
    @lemmegetone 11 місяців тому +3

    What about just doing a layer of rigid foam on the sheathing for a thermal break? Thanks for the vid

  • @rogercurrie
    @rogercurrie 10 місяців тому +1

    My Dad told me to use a similar double 2x4 design in the "80's . He said he built some double 2x4 walls in the "60's. Some people are ahead of their time. I did my first renovation in 1992 and used 2x4 studs with 1.5 inches of Styrofoam on the exterior. I added a 1000 square foot second story and my heat bill went up $10 per month. I also put R60 blow in insulation in the attic.

    • @williamwchuang
      @williamwchuang 10 місяців тому

      Yeah exterior insulation is better than double studs.

  • @rhhobbit
    @rhhobbit 11 місяців тому +5

    Very interesting approach. Thanks for sharing with the community.

  • @tacticalskiffs8134
    @tacticalskiffs8134 10 місяців тому +1

    Makes sense, and I know of a few people who live north in Canada who have double walls, and swear by them. The only thing that worries me is that one of the "benefits" of 2x6 walls was that the lumber is better quality. Getting any 2x4 lumber these days that isn't a joke is nearly impossible. I realize that lumber quality and availability varies a lot by region, but where I am the quality increases markedly in the larger dimensions. Then the other question is whether 2x6 with foam on the outside for the break, is easier to build and just as efficient for less loss of floor area in tighter urban floor plans.

  • @jctai100
    @jctai100 11 місяців тому +7

    It's great to see a channel like this geared towards Canadian prairie climates. I follow Risinger and similar channels but I think you're the first I see in AB!

    • @kennorthunder2428
      @kennorthunder2428 9 місяців тому

      👍

    • @kerrryschultz2904
      @kerrryschultz2904 9 місяців тому

      In the inner framing I would have liked to see the studs staggered away from the outside wall studs, yielding a higher overall R wall value. 10 inch overall minus 7 inch of wood with 3 inches of cellulose yields about R 16 at the studs. Based on R 3 per inch of cellulose. Stud off set gives 3 1/2 inches of wood plus 6 1/2 inches of cellulose. Yields about R 21. Wood has an R value of about R 1 per inch.

  • @dennissmith5837
    @dennissmith5837 9 місяців тому

    I liked your video and here is why. I worked some construction after high school while going to college. I’ve since built two houses for myself and agree with your concept. The first house I built with double 2 x 4 walls. The second wall was approximately 1/4 inch inside the outside wall. I off set the studs and insulated both with fiberglass insulation. Between the top plates and bottom plates I put sill seal on edge for a thermal break as well where the cripples and studs were at a door or window opening. I then framed those rough openings with 1/2 or 3/4 inch plywood for strength.
    My second house I was talked into building with 2 x 6 studs. I am so mad at myself for getting pursued to use 2 x 6 studs and vinyl siding. The insulation and sound barrier is terrible. If . . . I ever build again it will be a double 2 x 4 wall building. My first house heated for almost nothing I. Wisconsin. The 2 x 6 house is terrible to heat.

  • @richardferster8049
    @richardferster8049 11 місяців тому +10

    My brother finished a home recently, he estimated that, with all of the 'environment saving' innovations, he had to add,[due to BC code] approximately 100 thousand $ Can., to the cost of a 1600 SQ ft. home. That includes double framing, & costs, far more insulation,[that cellulose is going to settle], and mechanical air re & re, long list to be continued. The house is warm and dry, suffocating, without windows 'cracked open', but he now has to run air exchange fans, etc. because the house is so air tight. This guy is catering to his obviously 'better off' clientele. That 100 grand @ 5% or what have you paying substantially more and longer then slightly older still efficient methods of building. I have seen it first hand.

  • @jimhoward6584
    @jimhoward6584 3 місяці тому

    In 1978 I built a 2200 sq. ft. house and built the exterior walls with 2x10 top and bottom plates and also same for window/door framing but used 2 sets of 2x4 studs. Fiber glass batt insulation was available for this exact thickness. R 30 if i remember correctly ? Blown in cellulouse in the ceiling for R 50. This was in Fairbanks Alaska. I used roughly half of the heating oil that a same size house with 2x6 exterior walls used.

  • @hobbyhoundsmt5525
    @hobbyhoundsmt5525 11 місяців тому +10

    Maybe use a 2*10 top and bottom plate and stagger the 2*4 studs from outside to inside.

    • @AZ-vt7dt
      @AZ-vt7dt 11 місяців тому +1

      The plates would be a no no...a thermal connection from outside to inside. The separation is the must in this method.

    • @MurDocInc
      @MurDocInc 11 місяців тому +2

      ​@@AZ-vt7dt2x10 is roughly R13 which is considered enough for thermal break in building science.

    • @AZ-vt7dt
      @AZ-vt7dt 11 місяців тому

      if 2 x 10 is touching outside sheathing....that's no good unless there is r-max/eps on outside of sheathing...that 2 x 10 will transfer cold right to backside sheetrock.@@MurDocInc

    • @Krunch2020
      @Krunch2020 8 місяців тому

      @@AZ-vt7dt There must be fire blocking. You will always have some thermal bridges. The windows are the worst part of a wall by far.

  • @PongoXBongo
    @PongoXBongo 9 місяців тому +1

    This seems like a great way to retrofit an existing house. A homeowner could add the 2nd interior wall a room at a time without affecting the existing load-bearing structure. Only issue might be shifting electrical boxes and extending plumbing, but still within the realm of DIY.

  • @BOAH247
    @BOAH247 11 місяців тому +12

    The cost makes sense if you are building with 2x4x8 where it’s $3.98 vs 2x6x8 which is $6.23 in my area local Home Depot New Jersey. But when you go up to 2x4x 10 and 2x6x10, the cost is $1.29 difference. $6.54 and $7.82

    • @waterbug1135
      @waterbug1135 11 місяців тому +1

      That's why I use standard 2x4 and then layer 2x2 furring for the inside. First layer on diagonal for shear so no OSB or ply is needed. Furring can be cull and/or salvaged 2x's ripped to 2x2. I never understood why even 2x6's were used. Super easy to shim out the final vertical 2x2's to get a very plumb and flat wall. Future warping risk is greatly reduced in a 2x2 and virtually impossible in salvaged wood. No top or bottom plate is needed for the furring so 2x4 plates can be used.

    • @timhallas4275
      @timhallas4275 11 місяців тому +3

      Let's not forget the additional labor for building two houses instead of one.

    • @BOAH247
      @BOAH247 11 місяців тому

      @@timhallas4275 Only exterior walls is done that way so it's not actually 2 houses.

    • @snap-off5383
      @snap-off5383 11 місяців тому

      Nobody buys lumber from home depot to build homes, those are remodel sticks.

    • @timhallas4275
      @timhallas4275 11 місяців тому

      @@BOAH247I know that. I was talking about the exterior framing.

  • @Resist.Tyranny
    @Resist.Tyranny 6 місяців тому

    1. Offset the inner and outer studs will slightly improve insulation.
    2. Raised heel truss will allow the wall cavity to be open to the roof insulation such that any insulation settling will have a huge reservoir from the roof area, and still leave no uninsulated gaps.
    3. Condensation/water is the biggest problem with highly insulated double wall. There are quite a number of things online on how to carefully deal with permeability and vapor and condensation. Anything else may be good for a while, but later be moldy and decay prone.

  • @bman6502
    @bman6502 11 місяців тому +250

    2x4 cost $3.5, 2x6 cost $5.5, so the double 2x4 wall would be $1.5 more per stud…

    • @explor360
      @explor360 11 місяців тому +91

      Not to mention additional labor costs…

    • @johnboyle1146
      @johnboyle1146 11 місяців тому +66

      Plus double the labor, construction is too expensive as it is!

    • @oltedders
      @oltedders 11 місяців тому +112

      This is construction for sound proofing a recording studio. A cheaper option for sound proofing with highly effective results is using a 2"x6" plate with staggered 2"x4"s 1foot on center. Insulation snaked in between horizontally so that each stud has a dead air space on both of its sides with no communication from wall to wall.

    • @frankvuong1080
      @frankvuong1080 11 місяців тому +20

      Is seems like it would be soundproof as well. I think your right about cost effectiveness. Twice the 2x4 doesn't really translate to cheaper cost in terms of price of one 2x6.... Although wiring would be easier!

    • @oltedders
      @oltedders 11 місяців тому +10

      You essentially have 2 walls on 2' centers sharing the same plate.

  • @larrybuckner8619
    @larrybuckner8619 5 днів тому

    I did not hear you mention it but this is also an excellent way for soundproofing from room to room. Sound is vibration and if you stop the vibration going from one stud to the other stud by not letting them touch then that kills the sound. 👍

  • @kenchapman6316
    @kenchapman6316 11 місяців тому +8

    I love the double stud design! Very curious about your ceiling installation. Do you have a conditioned attic in this home? Insulation in the ceiling joists or roof rafters?
    Would love more details on this fascinating project

  • @jasonsmith373
    @jasonsmith373 9 місяців тому +1

    Very nice. Great thinking outside the box. I may incorporate Sorensen's system into my future outbuilding/workshop - the minimum extra investment in studs & insulation will pay for itself in heating cost savings.

  • @TdrSld
    @TdrSld 11 місяців тому +6

    Man you need to look in to T-Studs, for what your doing the cost would most likely me less and with something like Zip-R you could build a much better walls with less labor and material cost.

    • @derekwynia9916
      @derekwynia9916 11 місяців тому +2

      Agreed! T-studs plus zip-R seems like the much better solution to the problem he is trying to solve.

  • @randykreifels6171
    @randykreifels6171 11 місяців тому +2

    We did our 1990 built 2x4 house. Add extra interior 2x4 wall and now at r 24 walls. Only thing different is offsetting the studs and I had to rewire walls, but that's ok I have completely changed whole inside of house,anyway. Can't hear anything outside as well to the r value

  • @user-bb1dy5gn7s
    @user-bb1dy5gn7s 11 місяців тому +1

    Reading some of the comments, it's correct you need fire blocking. Also you need blocking for your plywood 9 ft wall 10 ft wall 12 ft wall something to look at.

  • @dc-wp8oc
    @dc-wp8oc 11 місяців тому +16

    More lumber makes more waste and more lumber mean more labor to install. Interested to see a breakdown of all the costs.

    • @PandorasFolly
      @PandorasFolly 11 місяців тому +2

      I recently built a 2x4 double stud house with 8-10inches of cellulose in the walls and 35 inches in the ceiling with "Aeroseal" installed. The other building method we were looking at was 2x6 with spray foam. I think we ended saving about 12k$-20k$ depending which sprayfoam contractor we talked to. Though i did most of the work myself and didn't have to spend extra money on extra labor.
      One thing we definitely noticed is how silent the house is with the double wall

    • @waterbug1135
      @waterbug1135 11 місяців тому +2

      I use layers of 2x2 furring on the inside of a standard 2x4 wall. First layer on a 45. I use salvaged lumber I rip into 2x2's. I love all the waste on new build sites because that's my lumber store. It is of course more labor but I slow flip houses so I don't mind trading time for lower material cost. And of course there's no way all homes could be build using salvaged lumber because there wouldn't be enough. But I'm happy to exploit this niche.

    • @timhallas4275
      @timhallas4275 11 місяців тому +2

      The average cost (labor and materials) of building the second interior stud wall adds about 15% to the overall framing cost. This will always far exceed the cost of doubling the exterior insulation thickness.....AND it reduces the interior space by 8%. Not to mention the additional cost of window installations.

  • @InvisibleCitizen
    @InvisibleCitizen 9 місяців тому

    I have been using a staggered 2X4 stud outer wall construction with an 2X8 cap and bottom plate. There is a stud every 12”. One stud on the outer side and 12” to a stud on the inner wall. Years ago I used standard 2X4 top and bottom plates on both walls but I prefer to tie them together now with the 2X8 plates.

    • @kerrryschultz2904
      @kerrryschultz2904 9 місяців тому

      By using the 2 by 8 that limits you to a 7 1/2 inch cavity. Insulation is probably one of the cheapest long term investments depending on what you use to heat the home and where it is. In the prairies were -30 to -40 is common in winter the higher R value is a long term buffer on increasing heating costs.

  • @thefrub
    @thefrub 11 місяців тому +11

    Err that gap around the second floor might violate firebreak codes

    • @approots
      @approots 11 місяців тому +1

      Insulation is a fire block.

    • @andrewshedron425
      @andrewshedron425 11 місяців тому +2

      ​​@@approotsno it isn't

    • @LogansRun314
      @LogansRun314 11 місяців тому +3

      @@andrewshedron425 yes it is. Only if there's an actual air gap would it break fire code. Also, try setting dense pack cellulose on fire😅

    • @approots
      @approots 11 місяців тому

      @@andrewshedron425 lol yes it is. Have a look at the building code or google or just think about it. When you restrict airflow through cavities you restrict fire.

  • @daviddestefano4839
    @daviddestefano4839 11 місяців тому +4

    But there is an extra cost in foundation/slab? It has to accommodate the walls to maintain the square footage inside the home. With additional cost of 2 by 4, are the energy costs substantial to outweigh material costs?
    Is the warmth/cooling of the home offer significantly more comfort with a double wall system?

    • @KPHVAC
      @KPHVAC 11 місяців тому

      I'm in HVAC design and sales in Washington state. Upgrading the insulation and making a home air tight can be a huge savings! I still think the weakest link is windows. Most custom homes have way too many windows that are far too large. The best windows are usually only about R5.

  • @goetzfrank4090
    @goetzfrank4090 10 місяців тому +2

    I would suggest that you also explore exterior continuous insulation in combination with a rain screen, my favorite wall assembly. The rain screen is really bulletproof in terms of waterproofing and the exterior insulation can be varied in thickness to achieve the desired performance. One could even explore (and analyze cost) to do no cavity insulation at all and save the working step and only provide exterior continuous insulation. An additional 1-2” would most likely replace the cavity insulation. this is because the studs degrade the thermal performance so much. The exterior continuous insulation can also very nicely line up with an exterior insulation at the concrete base wall or slab on grade. Food for thought…..

    • @williamwchuang
      @williamwchuang 10 місяців тому

      A 2x6 wall with Roxul and 2" polyiso continuous exterior insulation, and rain screen will probably last longer. Cellulose isn't great if there's any moisture and it settles.

  • @all8849
    @all8849 11 місяців тому +6

    I think its a good way to get better sound isolation as well as added comfort but you also need to look at the whole assembly like getting better windows, thicker insulation not to mention the added labor cost of an inside 2 x 4 wall. Depending on cost of construction in your area, return on investment (energy savings vs cost) might take a while also. It would be interesting to know by how much resale value is affected too.

  • @johnalvitre3154
    @johnalvitre3154 3 місяці тому +1

    I love this gapped style and use it for my walls, interior and exterior. I stagger my 2x4s so they are splitting the 16” space of the wall before it, furthering the thermal break and noise transfer ability by increasing the distance from 2x4 to the next wall’s 2x4. It also lets you weave product between the two walls easily as there is no longer a pocket created by the two 2x4s in opposition. I am curious of your thoughts on this idea since the cost is the same or possibly 1 additional 2x4 to create the staggered effect. Also, great video, mellow and to the point. Thank you.

  • @t.tielemans9303
    @t.tielemans9303 11 місяців тому +13

    The second floor is placed on is single top plate and a wall that has no sheer strength. Is that approved by your engineer? And how about extra labour costs?

    • @floridagunrat1625
      @floridagunrat1625 11 місяців тому

      It won't meet code here particularly in reference to Hurricane wind loading

    • @waterbug1135
      @waterbug1135 11 місяців тому +2

      Not sure why you're thinking there's anything different from a standard build. The outside 2x4, plates and OSB would all be standard structure. The wider plates and inner 2x4's wouldn't be structural. They're just there as drywall nailers.
      For example I flip 1940's houses and I remove drywall and screw 2x2's on 45 to the inside of original 2x4's studs and then vertical 2x2's. Same result as in the video, almost no wood thermal bridging. Furring isn't load bearing. However I only do single story houses so not sure if there's something I'm missing.

    • @urphonesucks
      @urphonesucks 3 місяці тому

      ​@@waterbug1135Except he's bearing on the interior studs which aren't sheared and no diaphragm connection at floor level to name just a couple major structural flaws with this approach. No continuous load path for both lateral and gravity loads. Two story tall 2x4 balloon frames exterior studs not braced at the floor so you don't have a thermal bridge? Foolishness!

  • @robobrio3580
    @robobrio3580 2 місяці тому

    In Amurica, i just used SIPs and ran wiring inside a baseboard trim detail never thru a panel. You actually have to have a decent design up front to do this.
    Builders never change.

  • @DeereX748
    @DeereX748 11 місяців тому +6

    Why not stagger the studs on the two walls? You could decrease the distance between the parallel walls and still maintain a wider thermal break between them. With the studs in line with each other, and then insulate the double wall, the R value in the narrow spot between the parallel studs is less than the spaces between them. With the studs staggered, and then insulated, the R value is almost constant along the wall. The staggered studs don't change how windows and doorways get framed in.

    • @946towguy2
      @946towguy2 11 місяців тому

      That's what I do. I stagger interior and exterior 2x4 on 2x6 or 2x8 plates.

    • @MurDocInc
      @MurDocInc 11 місяців тому +2

      Pretty much the same thing but double stud will be easier it frame. Imagine floating half the studs when framing on the floor, you need jigs and/or 2 guys.

    • @hiris1903
      @hiris1903 10 місяців тому +1

      I learned about staggered studs in two rows of 2x4s back in 1980! IMO using Roxul batts and insulating the first row before building the second inside row would be the easiest way to insulate. I'm thinking the wiring would be easier to run, as it could go between the two walls of studs too (with stapling in place per code of course), so electicial costs might be reduced.

    • @paulmaxwell8851
      @paulmaxwell8851 10 місяців тому +1

      It's six of one and half a dozen of another. Our home is staggered-stud, but our big workshop is aligned-stud. On paper, there IS a benefit to staggered-stud so that's why we did it. It's not more difficult, just different. Either way, double-stud is the only way we build these days.

  • @tigerseye73
    @tigerseye73 11 місяців тому +2

    I saw this type of construction being used in North Dakota about 40 years ago. They get some very cold winters.

  • @ProfessorJM1
    @ProfessorJM1 11 місяців тому

    And, If you do this (slightly modified/a lighter version) on interior walls you get soundproofing, too, so. Great info.

  • @jeffmarett321
    @jeffmarett321 11 місяців тому +6

    What happens when that blown in cellulose settles and now there's an air gap at the top?

    • @mikenotta7079
      @mikenotta7079 11 місяців тому +4

      Blown in cellulose is what builders use for other people's homes. It's a critter haven and like you said, it will settle over time. My best uneducated guess is within 3-5 years you will lose significant r value.
      Best practice is exterior insulation and closed cell/Rockwood batt on interior. If money is no object, just fill the cavity with spay foam and call it a day.

    • @phamlam3720
      @phamlam3720 11 місяців тому +2

      @@mikenotta7079There is a reason they call it dense pack. It is packed with enough density to avoid settling issue.
      If your walls have critters in it, there are other problems to address first.

  • @jwalkerC21
    @jwalkerC21 9 місяців тому

    we had the dense pack in the apartments we used to manage, very quiet neighbors, and cheap utilities.

  • @billvojtech5686
    @billvojtech5686 11 місяців тому +4

    Two questions: Could you use 2x3s on the inside? How would this compare to a 2x6 wall sheathed with Zip-R?

    • @qlogic2002
      @qlogic2002 11 місяців тому

      Lookup matt risinger engineered studs with dowels between them.

    • @williamwchuang
      @williamwchuang 10 місяців тому

      The best R value to overall thickness is actually a system like the one you propose. Exterior foam has an r value of 5 while cavity insulation is 3-3.5. Adding 3 inches of exterior foam gives you 15 compared to 10.5 of internal cavity insulation. Cellulose and fiber class insulation also settle and clump due to moisture. While exterior foam doesn't have that problem. So it will probably be a better solution over the long term and by long-term I mean 10 years or more, maybe even 5 years

  • @RadioReprised
    @RadioReprised 2 місяці тому +1

    There is a reduced sound transmission as well!

  • @bwillan
    @bwillan 11 місяців тому +11

    What about just adding exterior insulation with the sheathing? Like Zip-R panels, or adding Poly-Iso or EPS panels then regular sheathing.

    • @MurDocInc
      @MurDocInc 11 місяців тому +1

      It's good idea in the south, in north where you need 10"+ of insulation. Adding 4-8" of exterior insulation becomes really expensive and more complicated with details like long screws & window bucks. Cellulose is also an 3rd of rigid insulation cost.

    • @DeuceDeuceBravo
      @DeuceDeuceBravo 11 місяців тому +1

      Zip is overrated, and polyiso loses R-value in the cold. But plywood sheathing + self-adhered membrane + semi-rigid mineral wool is a great way to build a wall.

  • @OwlMoovement
    @OwlMoovement 2 місяці тому

    Very cool. With the thicker walls and lack of thermal bridging, I'd love to see this combined with straw bale construction.

  • @jimdanaher9068
    @jimdanaher9068 11 місяців тому +5

    The second story system creates a fire chimney

    • @LogansRun314
      @LogansRun314 11 місяців тому +2

      No it doesn't.

    • @approots
      @approots 11 місяців тому +2

      Insulation is a fire block.

  • @billderinbaja3883
    @billderinbaja3883 Місяць тому +1

    Question: The outer stud is where sheathing is anchored and structural shear is developed. If you set the floor joists & subfloor on the inner stud, they no longer connect to the shear development of the building. Doesn't that impact your shear calcs?

  • @Mika-px6po
    @Mika-px6po 10 місяців тому +3

    Thanks for the great video! It's great to see builders exploring options and sharing their experience around deep walls. In terms of options, have you experimented or reviewed other wall assembly types? ie 2x4 with outsilation?

  • @Rllasley
    @Rllasley 4 місяці тому +1

    Hello. Nice video...also, nice break down on 2x4 vs 2x6 studs....however, double 2x4 wall stops Thermal bridge...
    Know thermal bridge definition?....save $$...no more restaurant food(VERY UNHEALTHY), no $50,000.00- $90,000.00 vehicles, no more $$ draining computers, wide screen tv's, internet service....Great video...I am 66 years...my Grandfather and Father built Custom house(that turned Into homes)....i do Remodeling now(after career in music business-what? Can't hear you-please type louder!!) ...this technique is Very Smart...thanks for sharing!

  • @nickmarra6407
    @nickmarra6407 11 місяців тому +3

    Before jumping into this, do comparisons for windows and doors. I was going to do a 2x8 wall but the doors were considerably more money. Also consider 2x6 walls at 19.2 on center and use spray foam insulation.

    • @williamwchuang
      @williamwchuang 10 місяців тому

      Continuous exterior insulation. That's outside space not on your foundation. That's an R value of 5 per inch minimum compared to 3-3.5 for cavity insulation.

    • @williamwchuang
      @williamwchuang 10 місяців тому

      A 2x4 with R-13 cavity insulation and two inches of exterior insulation with an r value of 5 gets you to R-23.

  • @davidrubick8981
    @davidrubick8981 10 місяців тому +1

    Also to achieve certain dimensions of a room you would need to have a bigger foundation which is also more labor cost with more concrete.

  • @BobBob-eh5sb
    @BobBob-eh5sb 11 місяців тому +3

    I think they mean better value due to lower utility bills that will eventually pay for the extra cost of two walls. Been out of the construction game for 20 years, so not sure how many are using 2x6 walls, let alone this. Granted it would be just the outside walls, but still going to add cost and you’d be losing some square footage, especially with a 7” gap along with the 3 1/2” for the second 2by, that almost a square foot, times the lineal feet of the house.

    • @samelioto476
      @samelioto476 11 місяців тому

      We started doing 2x6 walls in Lake Havasu AZ in the mid 70s. Electricity was expensive, and it's HOT there. I learned that there's no such thing as too much insulation.

    • @williamwchuang
      @williamwchuang 10 місяців тому

      ​@@samelioto476no doubt but exterior insulation doesn't take up interior space, has better r value per inch, and stops wind/water. You need longer fasteners, though.

  • @waterbug1135
    @waterbug1135 11 місяців тому +1

    Even better wall imo...I slow flip houses in Phoenix and target houses built in 1940's. These homes often have no insulation. I remove the drywall and standard batts to the existing wall. Then furring out inside: 2x2's screwed at a 45 and 24" o.c. to existing vertical studs. Then vertical 2x2's 16" o.c. to the diagonals but offset from the original vertical 2x4's. On long walls diagonals at opposing directions on either ends. I make sure a diagonal catches door and window corners.
    Furring can create any depth wall. 8" seems fine for Phoenix. I never run any heat in winter and of course summer cooling cost is reduced.
    Pros... No shear sheathing is needed. When OSB was $50 a sheet this was a big help. Older homes always used diagonal boards for shear strength, normally a single 1x4 let in per wall...I'm adding many. Almost no wood thermal bridging. No drilling studs for wire and pipes since these can be attached to the inside 2x4 face of original 2x4. Can even create raceways if you like for running water, sewer, split AC line sets, etc... I can use cull and salvaged lumber. I rip 2x4s, 2x6, whatever to 2x2s. Length doesn't really matter, about 3' min. The final vertical 2x2's are easy to shim out using a string at top and bottom to get vertical, and then a level to shim any low spots in the middle. No top or bottom plate is needed. I do add a horizontal 2x2 at the top for drywall screws. At the bottom I attach a 2 or 3" strip of 1/2" OSB or ply to outside of final vertical 2x2 as a baseboard backer and to fill the drywall gap on 8' 2", 8' 3" walls.
    Cons... Insulating with batts around the diagonals takes more work. Attaching electric boxes, windows and doors can need extra framing.

  • @CharlieH_design
    @CharlieH_design 11 місяців тому +5

    I like the Double Stud Wall! Are you using any exterior insulation? If no exterior insulation and only depending on wall thickness, how does this affect the exterior sheathing getting cold and causing condensation? It looks like you are not using an air-tight membrane on the inside to prevent moisture from moving from inside to cold outside. How does this work?

    • @mattmag3089
      @mattmag3089 11 місяців тому

      Depending on your zone, latex paint will suffice
      Edit: I'm sure you know, but when you move down into a more air conditioned zone, that moisture barrier on the inside isn't the way to go because of cold interiors instead of Northern cold exteriors

    • @bradley3549
      @bradley3549 10 місяців тому

      This is a good consideration. A lot of folks want 2/3 of the total R-value on the exterior if exterior foam is used. In this case, that's simply not posisble. But also, not necessary either I reckon as an 8+" thick wall with no thermal bridging is pretty darn good anyway.

    • @williamwchuang
      @williamwchuang 10 місяців тому

      ​@@bradley3549If you are zone 4, or higher especially in the moist area than you will risk condensation on the inside of your sheathing during the colder month of the year. Exterior insulation keeps the sheathing warm above the dew point and prevents this from happening

    • @bradley3549
      @bradley3549 10 місяців тому

      @@williamwchuang I did a poor job explaining, but that's exactly what I'm talking about. There is a caveat you don't mention and that is that you need exterior insulation. If you have an R25 wall and only put R5 exterior foam, the inside of your sheathing will still drop below the dew point. And if that exterior insulation is vapor retarding foam, now you have a real problem.
      The thicker your wall, the more exterior insulation you need to prevent that. At beyond a certain point, adding more insulation to the exterior wall becomes impractical. That was the point I was trying to make.

  • @ryandubyah2345
    @ryandubyah2345 11 місяців тому

    I came into this video expecting something I’d really want to tear apart and dissect, but I really enjoyed this! Thanks very much!

  • @johnnylawson69
    @johnnylawson69 11 місяців тому +3

    This is interesting. At this time, I can't see that it is better. Yes, those thick walls may save some on heating expense, but how much more savings there will be. Most of your heat loss is through the ceiling and not the sidewalls. I'm not sure where you are located, but in the United States we have to abide by the 2012 energy act. Obviously the double studs will comply with the act, but I'm not seeing the financial benefit. Maybe if I think about it more, I will.
    I do appreciate you putting yourself out there.

  • @robertfrey3607
    @robertfrey3607 10 місяців тому

    The added cost is labor, which is transferred to the customer. It has also been tests that show that cellulose settles over time leaving the top of the wall without insulation. That being said this is a great technique in colder regions.

  • @kenchow8213
    @kenchow8213 11 місяців тому +3

    It would be interesting to see a side-by-side total wall R value and cost comparison of 2x6 wall vs double 2x4 wall with gap vs 2x4 wall with exterior insulation vs 2x6 wall with exterior insulation.

    • @paperburn
      @paperburn 11 місяців тому +1

      Joseph Lstiburek perfect wall . building science corporation has your answer. If you ever build a new house do it his way. has a series of very informative videos but a bit dry and he has cheap books on how to build the best house for your area. This broken wall is one of the things he recommends. It is called a Mooney wall.

    • @coreyfranco7060
      @coreyfranco7060 11 місяців тому

      Doesn't this method violate the building code for fire blocking the wall cavity?

    • @paperburn
      @paperburn 11 місяців тому

      dependent on area you live.@@coreyfranco7060

  • @RobertJones-sq6bl
    @RobertJones-sq6bl 10 місяців тому +1

    Unfortunately i have a double wall cabin, logs on one side and 2×4 insulated wall on the inside. It is very good and easy to meet the R 21 or higher installation requirements. Unfortunately, because of the way the walls are it is impossible to keep mice out, and insects and even a snake or 2. You would really need to build with this in mind.

  • @miguelviau3163
    @miguelviau3163 11 місяців тому +4

    Did you take into consideration the modifications to the concrete foundation to accommodate the new wall structure as well as increase/ loss in square footage of 10" walls instead of 6.5" walls?

  • @ChristLink-Channel
    @ChristLink-Channel 18 днів тому

    One other large benefit I didn't see mentioned with this method, is the major increase in acoustic isolation. The "traditional" framing method creates numerous "flanking paths" through the wall (similar to thermal bridging), which allow sound to travel directly from one side to the other. This method completely eliminates that. You can expect an increase of at least 10-15 dB in isolation, perhaps 20 or more dB (depending on the gap between the frames, the type/depth of insulation in fill, and the sheathing mass/density on each side). That's pretty darn good, for very little extra cost. This is the way recording studios are built, and in that sound isolation industry it is often referred to as the "fully decoupled two leaf MSM" method. Here MSM stands for "Mass-Spring-Mass", which is the acoustic principle that allows such a system to perform so well at blocking most sounds. The only additional caveat for major sound isolation, is to ensure that both "leaves" of the wall are completely hermetic: fully sealed against all air movement.

  • @KevinL.03303
    @KevinL.03303 10 місяців тому +4

    As a Firefighter that has battled balloon framing house fires in the past, how do you stop the chimney effect?
    I see you do have fire breaks on each 2x4 wall system, but that 3 inch gap is wide open and prone to fire extension.

  • @garywjensen1
    @garywjensen1 10 місяців тому

    If one uses a 1" styrofoam sheathing on the outside it prevents heat transfer. I use 2x6, sprayed urethane foam with 1" sheathing which increases wall strength by 300%. There is always settlement using cellulose.