Hyundai Veloster - 4 Year Owner Review
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- Опубліковано 9 лип 2024
- Well it's now been 4 Years of ownership. So today I address my thoughts on ownership so far. The good, the bad, the questionable.... Would I recommend this car for the average consumer? What about the tuner or car enthusiast out there? Let's find out!
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I purchased my 2017 Hyundai Veloster Black in 2016 and it’s still going strong❤. I’ve had no major issues so far. I ❤ my Hyundai!!!
Great cars honestly.
I just bought a 2016 base a few months ago. Not a huge car guy so I didn't need the turbo and found a good deal on a base. I've been watching your channel a lot because of it just getting an idea for things. Thanks for the info.
My 2015 Veloster just hit 98k miles. Had to replace my Evap canister, other than that just breaks + rotors + oil changes and a battery since it was 7 years old. I live in upstate NY where we salt the roads and its still holding up well. I do have undercoat protection but either way. Hoping the car continues running good. It has been insanely reliable.
I love the music throughout the video
Link in description!
Handbrake issue has been Hyundai/Kia issue easily for the last decade. I had a 2011 Elantra. Car was parked on slight decline, handbrake yanked all the way up. Got a call from security advising the car rolled. I was proper shocked. Thank God that it rolled very slowly and just rested on the read bumper of the vehicle parked in front - no damages whatsoever. I hence now leave it in gear and turn the wheels towards the curb in my Veloster, just to be safe.
Man that is legit horrible
love the video man but i was wondering how did u get a wallpaper on the screen in the car? it looks really cool
I have a video on here called Tips, Tricks, and Hacks that's a bit long but I demonstrate the process on that. ua-cam.com/video/cymYbHoyKWY/v-deo.html
I have a 2015 veloster turbo 60,000k today . The A/C fan dial replaced at 45k. Still having problems between 1&2 fan speed. The headlight switch is acting up after 25k . The Bluetooth for phone or screen freezing is a intermittent problem . The water pump went out about 52k and it got replaced by warranty . The front door Twitters went out and they make noise at high volume . From the tires stand point I would recommend using Continental ExtremeContact DWS06... better grip and performance on rain/ snow . They’re about $150 at CARiD , if you go to the dealer they might charge you about $250 a piece . Overall is a good daily driver, regular Mobil1 synthetic oil every 4500k with the Techron fuel additive every oil change and CRC carb cleaner every 3 oil change. Great video by the way 👏👏👏👏
Wow thats a lot but i'm glad you enjoy it despite all that. I appreciate the kind words.
Mine is a 2013 Base. It's my second favorite car after the 1967 Jaguar E-Type Roadster I had back in my 20s. It has 99000 miles on it and still running great. No faded plastic pieces either. The car is a lot of fun to drive and when I first got it I got a lot of admiring comments at the gas station. Since they have become more common, other drivers don't pay as much attention as they used to. Decent gas mileage, consistent 35-37 mpg on the highway. Very comfortable for long drives as well. I made many 1000 mile one-day trips between San Antonio and Atlanta and wasn't worn out at the end. Oh, and I forget to mention, it's yellow, a beautiful shade of yellow.
hey bro, thanks for your feedback! what gearbox do you have on your veloster?
Is this a 6 speed automatic transmission or a DCT?
@@MAGICSPRODUCER Mine is the 6 speed manual.
omg i’ve been looking for cars for my
first car and i found a hyundai veloster 2013 & it’s also yellow and i wanna get it but im
so scared bc of the color cus im scared ppl r going to judge me but reading your comment makes me think differently but im
still scared LOL😭
Great Video! Is it worth getting a 2012 for daily driving? Of course doing proper maintenance and everything. Looking at one with 77,000 miles on it. just really tying to find something reliable and able to last for awhile
Well the 2012 model only came in a non turbo variant and that engine had seemed to be pretty reliable so I'd say it shouldn't be an issue. If a turbo model is what you're seeking, look for something 2014 or newer.
Catch cans are great for Direct Injection systems, even in NA engines. I installed one in my old Chevy Impala and used fuel additive to help break up the carbon deposits on the valves. For the first few months I would empty the can and get so much sludge, but after a while it was mostly just condensation.
For a DI vehicle I highly recommend a catch can. They are easy to install and can prolong the life of the engine.
My Veloster hasn't got one, and I might not need to install, as I still use additive and fuel up with Top Tier gas. I may still install one, but the car is new enough that it's not a priority
I'd actually make sure not to delay on it too much. As you said, since you're new it's ok for now but as the injectors fuel doesn't go through the the cylinder head like older EFI cars, this does not have any other way to try to keep the valves and other components cleaned.
@@Chayness Oh yeah, first was getting it ready for winter. New steel wheels and a set of dedicated winter tires. Carbon takes it's time to settle on your valves, but icy winter roads can get you in seconds.
@@JS-hw8ve That's very true. Be safe out there!
Nice.... Can you help us with a video about all the updates that Hyundai has been done in g4fj engines ... For our Veloster... I'm just curious.
As a big dude myself, i always that seat indentation thing is just showing how it's a good seat.
do you know a aggressive drop for springs coilovers just to expensive
do you think automatic models would have the same handbrake issues?
Also interesting to note whether you've experienced any steering coupler issues. Despite thousands of complaints that issue seems to persistently plague Hyundais. Another notorious issue with the Veloster is the speaker covers - the silver circular soft pad pops off and rattles around in the housing when the treble hits. Super easy fix just opening the speaker cage and throwing the bigger away, but in modern times, weak glue is poor.
I have not had any of these issues in my experience but i'll make sure to keep an eye (and ear) out
Mohamed, I have a 2013 I bought new. 99000 miles and no major problems. I did have a steering issue that may be what you are asking about. There is a small plastic gear at the end of the steering column and it broke. The steering made a "clunking" noise when first moving the steering wheel. I was working in San Antonio at the time and I took it to the shop where I usually got my oil changed. The manager said the entire steering column needed to be replaced for $2000. Since the car was still safe to drive, the steering worked okay except for the noise, I waited until I made a trip to Atlanta and took the car to my old mechanic. He immediately diagnosed the problem as the plastic gear, a $2 part and replaced immediately. Total labor and parts, less than $200 (he did have to remove and reinstall the column).
I love your car setup bro! Those red seats are fire 🔥! I just took a look at a 2016 Hyundai Veloster in yellow this afternoon and it was really nice! I loved it! It was super clean! The color looked awesome! It only has 48k miles, the price for it is $15K and no accidents and 1 owner which the owner took really good care of it maintenance wise. There are some minor chips on the exterior tho (maybe wear and tear🤷♂️) that the Hyundai dealer says they can try to take off a thousand or so off the price. Is this a good first car, and is it a cop?
I would consider a 2016 model an excellent buy if you're in the market for a Veloster. Though the price is up there, the mileage is low and sadly, the used car market is kinda crazy right now. Being the second owner, you may also qualify for the "2nd Hand Owner" warranty that Hyundai honors. In that case, it would be a great buy!
Question. I got my first veloster . Projector headlights. Lights seem dim but upgraded to led. And still seems dim on road. Was this a problem for you. Should I get a reflector housing u think?
2011 was a good year for the Veloster? I found one with very low mileage, around 35000 miles. Thanks.
Hi Chayness! Really appreciate your videos on Velosters etc. I have a Veloster base model and thinking on upgrading to a turbo or N. I am disappointed with the lag on acceleration wit the base and I want more response when accelerating but I still want good mpg. What would you recommend between the turbo or the N? Thanks!
From an enthusiast stand point, if you can afford the N (car and insurance) it's clearly the better option but keep in mind you forgo a lot of creature comforts as it's meant to be an all out track monster. It use to come only in manual but they just released a DCT version so that shouldn't be a problem. Also if gas mileage is your priority, this is where things start changing. The N is the most powerful Veloster so you will get all the thrills but they come at a price. Mainly, comfort and MPG (MPG is 22city/29hwy). On the other hand, the Veloster Turbo is MUCH peppier than a non turbo (aka the NAV models) and that may be good enough for your enjoyment. You get the benefit of a softer and more comfortable suspension, more comfortable tires (the N comes with Performance tires), the possibility for more luxuries (Tech Package additions), and the MPG is a friendlier 28city/34hwy. From a strictly consumer stand point who has no desire for track days or just overall power/speed, the Veloster Turbo is the better bet (and more economical assuming you don't go with the Ultimate which is really close to the N in price. Also, the VT will be cheaper on insurance). Hope this helped!
Wow! Thanks Chayness for the feedback. Turbo it is!
@@lindaschmidt4214 I have a 2020 veloster turbo r spec, if I knew they had the n model I would of got the n, but I didn't know nothing about the veloster models when I got it.
The handbrake is an issue I’m currently having on my 2016 r spec as well. It started happening shortly after I lowered my car with the same springs as you but that was about a week after. No paint issue although mine is white, I park outside everyday sun/rain/everything
The handbrake issue is interesting to hear. Be careful (clearly I was not)
i know this is an old video, but is there anything wrong with just keeping the bottom headlight bolt off entirely?
taking off the bumper sounds obnoxious. though i suppose headlights should have to be replaced that often..
Is it good for new driver?
Compré un veloster turbo 2013, estoy encantando!
Me da gusto saber que te guste el caro!
Man I'm owing your videos as I just got a 2017 turbo nav edition with tech options.
I want red eyes on my white beauty as my first mod but I'm lost at what ro get. Headlights and fog light
The whole "Demon Eye" look is sadly a full custom headlight build. You can find it pretty easily but it is quite expensive. There's a company that makes an LED bulb that doubles as a "Demon Eye" with many different colors but i've seen that the LED bulb part (the one you would need to drive at night) is rather dim and almost useless as a headlight so it would only be suitable for a foglight as best.
Hey is there anyway I can get details and Dimensions of the full sunroof from the front to back where the hatch opens??
OH yikes.... I'll try to measure it.
I have a 2016 Veloster, base model, I’m at almost 80,000 miles and got it used in 2017 (32,000miles). I haven’t had major issues other than the misfiring when going from a stop and acceleration (seems to be a common problem, but they refuse to diagnose it properly to fix it) but it’s been very reliable since I’ve had it. Just paid it off early and ready to modify it 😊🎉
I''m not familiar with misfiring but I know that on the manual models, traction control bogs down the vehicle aggressively from a stop into 1st. Otherwise, i'm glad your experience has been a good one!
@@Chayness Yeah I have the duel clutch transmission, not sure they just automatics in the veloster but I do have issues with the dual clutch transmission. There is a recall on it but when i take it in they can never recreate what I'm experiencing. Ex. if you stop at a stop sign and then start up then it stalls and misfires, if you are having to stop at a meter before getting on the freeway it stalls and just revs without moving. its quite frustrating. I could always try taking the traction control off and see if that makes a difference. 🤔😄
@@dianalaura4535 oh that's weird. It sounds like the DCT is failing to engage. If you have other Hyundai dealers near by, maybe take it to a different one? Not sure if the Veloster DCT have the capability (I would assume yes) but maybe a reflash of the TCU could resolve the issue if they're willing to do it?
man love those red seats
I own a 2015 Veloster and didn't start having issues until recently at 80k miles. My back struts needed to be replaced and then it started misfiring so I got the spark plugs changed and now it's burning oil.
Oh man i'm sorry to hear that. I hope everything turns out ok.
do you have the turbo?
I have 199k miles runs amazing I did start burning oil around 180k
Did you keep her I know you have the new Sonata N Line - Just wondering if you kept this beauty :)
I did not :( I ended up trading in. Though i'm a bit excited to show off the "new" Veloster that'll be gracing the channel since I'm still very much invested into doing videos for that platform and engine :)
Esta bonito su auto, me alegra que lo cuide, tengo uno pero no es turbo, saludos desde El Salvador.
Gracias por el apoyo!
Just bought a 2014 Turbo with 159k for 5k, runs like a dream!
Oh man your icon is a Prelude! That was my baby before the Veloster. Loved that car! Congrats on the VT!
Where did you get those Window visor ?
Ebay but they sell them on Amazon as well. Cheaper on Ebay but wait longer. Pricier on Amazon but get sooner.
I'm planning at looking at a 2013 1.6L veloster basemodel, can anyone tell me if there's any common (or) serious engine issues? Kind of nervous to consider purchasing one because the reviews seem pretty 50/50 bad and good.
The main issue on the 2013 Turbo models is that their internals were weak and as such, many people who thrashed them or modified them experienced engine failures. If you plan on doing none of that, you MIGHT be ok.... but if you do want to do things to the car past cosmetic modifications or drive your cars hard.... i'd advise a Turbo that is 2014 on up.
I’ve recently discovered this car and i love it! I would like to use it for daily driving. Something that i can pay off quickly and last me about 5-6 years. Would this be a good pick?
As long as you get a 2014+ model and take care of it, i think it would be a good little car.
@@Chayness Why 2014+......anything wrong with the prior models ?
@@CAPDCJR The 2013 models were the first year of the turbo models and sadly they had some reliability issues with the engine. While not all are bad, if you have any plans to modify the car, you're better off getting anything 2014+
@@Chayness Thanks
It's a great little car. I bought a used 2016 in 2018 and no problems. A week ago I had trouble with the driver window not going back up all the way until I fiddled with it a couple of times. Took to dealer and it wouldn't act up for them. They took off the panel and checked all the parts and lubed the track. No charge for the labor and did a free car wash and vacuum. Not sure on the paint issues since I've done thorough detailing on my own. Stays shiny. Also never had an issue with the parking break. Regularly park on an incline at work and car has never rolled on it's own. Also on steep inclines once in a while with no issues.
Hey man! Looking to get a 2013 velostar turbo at 8k. It’s run 90k miles. Not looking to get mods/ drive aggressively. What’s your take?
In the same boat!!
My Turbo 2016 Verloster 6 years later. Just need my alarm system check out. Besides that it's been a good car. But only 66K miles on my channel
The "orange peel" is just the process of factory machine painting, you will see it in so many cars not just Hyundai, the repair shop did a better job and only a couple of years of regular polishing will eventually flatten a proper shine into the paint.
How are the speakers?
So sorry I was never notified of this. The speakers are pretty good but if you're used to crazy clarity or super deep bass, you may want to go with aftermarket stuff. I think the audio is enjoyable for what it is as opposed to prior car audio systems lol
What you think of a 2014 with the 1.6 wit 116k miles for 9 grand what you think?
Too much
Have you had any vacuum leak because I am having problems with that
I actually haven't had that problem at all.
Im finding a lot of velosters used with low miles less than 70k mostly. I like them when I saw them so now im looking for reviews because iv heard some have problems and I dont want to buy a lemon. But a 2016 with less than 60k miles is hard for me to pass up right now.
This is arguably one of the best (and last) year models for the first gen Veloster. This was after the majority of kinks were worked out AND when they had a slight refresh in the form of updated media players, back up camera as standard, and the nicer gauge cluster set up.
@@Chayness I've found a 16 Turbo at 37k, are turbos reliable too? seeing all this "Rod Knocking" issues and "Tubos blowing up" it's kinda getting me half hearted. Bout to see the car tomorrow!
@@yikesomg3423 I would say that sounds like a great find. There is a recall on the engine that if you buy the vehicle, i'd recommend you looking into, but 2016 models have been very reliable.
where is that drive safe sticker from
Oh man... it was an insta page but I don't remember. Let me look it up and i'll get back to you
How reliable is 2016 model? It has 60k miles on it
2016 has been a solid year model for many, myself included
Hi bro , i have 2015 model can i facelift car to 2020?
Not without major modification. The 2nd Gen Models are quite different.
There is a 2015 veloster turbo for 12,000 with 120.000 miles, is it a good buy, or should I look for something else?
Not sure the pricing. Mileage is high but if you're ok with it and the price is ok. Just know that at that mileage, you're bound to get some things worn out or ready to give.
I found a 2014 veloster with 89k miles on it for $9,900… is it worth it?
With todays market, I'd say it's not terribly bad actually. Also it's a 2014 so it shouldn't have any of the major issues that plagued the 2013.
So what do you think would be your next car...? I love my 2015 Veloster turbo... Do you ever cruse Azusa canyon road.? We are out there every weekend...
I use to live in Ontario and my friend used to do Azusa all the time. I'd love to check it out sometime. Not sure if you watched my current video but i'm on the fence right now for my next project car. I'm looking around and debating but due to this channel, it'll most likely be another KDM platform lol
Im looking into buying a car i eas set on a mercedes a class for 17k euro but i came across a 2012 veloster with only 45km and price of 8000$ , i eont modify i dont druve fast but im not sure if this engine will be fine for the next 5 years
Considering the Turbo model wasn't made in 2012, a NAV should be fine no matter what year. So long as you do proper maintenance.
@@Chayness oh i see , i didnt think about that ,thank you for ur time brother
Found a 2013 Veloster with 130K for $5K. Is that worth it or should I avoid?
I'd personally avoid
Ik the 2013 turbo is bad but is the na one any good?
The NA model had no major issues. You should be safe.
@@Chayness Alright major thanks man!
21:46 How did you get that cool wallpaper on your screen?
Watch this video. I explain the process on it there. ua-cam.com/video/cymYbHoyKWY/v-deo.html&lc=UgzywxMVvSqhTKWCP2p4AaABAg.9SOaq9leNw59SrHUwkGsiM
@@Chayness Going to see a 2016 veloster turbo with 130k miles going for $12,000. Comes with the tech package and sunroof. How does that deal sound and what year is yours?
@@EmptyHand49 I'd say it's high but the current market is a mess. I saw 2016 R Specs going for $16K with only 29k miles so the mileage seems high for me
@@Chayness What do you think about online car buying like Carmax, Carvana? I'm tired of dealers adding $5,000+ in extra fees in person and they end up being the same price range as online options while having more miles on em.
@@Chayness Yeah as I've been looking it seems that its mileage that determines the price of a car more so than its year
Hi what do you think of $6500 for a 2012 Veloster 198 000KM on it?
Whoa that's a lot of kilometers. I mean it's cheap but the KM's seem high to me.
I'm looking at a used 2016 veloster turbo with 33k miles for $17k. I hope I get good vibes from the test drive. I'd really like to be with the Veloster fam.
Also, I like the rain guards on top of your windows. Are they pretty affordable?
I got a 2016 VT with 75k miles for 15k
@@bonusm3761 all the cheaper ones are being bought lol I wouldn't mind 60k+ mileage if it meant saving a grand or two.
The price you got yours for isn't horribly bad considering todays market. As for the rain guards, yea they were like $30 haha
@@Chayness Oh, that's good to know lol thanks for the insight!
6:32 Orange peel isn't "already happening"...it's always been like that. It's how the car was painted from the factory. I'm no expert, but I'm told it's because they shoot on one thick coat instead of multiple thinner coats, and the factory doesn't sand it after painting like you'd get at a bodyshop. My car (a metallic red '16 VT) has the same orange peel from new over the entire car - except on the front and rear bumpers which I've had replaced (because deer...I hit one, and one ran into the back of me - go figure. 🤔)
This is accurate. After speaking to numerous other owners, it appears that the car had this issue from the start. I sadly never noticed it, even less so on black.
I'm going to look at a 2012 with 107k miles on it for $8800. Do you think that is a good deal?
Price seems kinda high but I know todays car market is crazy. Also, if you plan to modify the car performance wise, stay clear of anything before 2014. You want to look at 2014+ models instead.
@@Chayness I passed on the car. Thank you for your help
I have a 2017 Hyundai Tucson. I went with the Tucson because I wanted AWD. It has been one of the biggest mistakes. The first was getting a Hyundai. They don’t care about their consumers. My car has been blowing headlights- having electrical issues (my auto windows go back down when you roll them up, my rear windshield wipers go off whenever they want, my break light seems to go on and off at random. I have reached out because as a company they should only want the best products out there. I was told that “because my car is over 3 years old. There is nothing they can do for me. To bring it to a dealer and “see what I can get” for it. I owe more than it’s worth because one thing they don’t tell you when you buy a Hyundai is they depreciate way faster than you can make payments to survive. DO NOT BUY A HYUNDAI.
I apologize for your experience but I also believe your experience doesn't reflect the brand as a whole. While i'll agree they depreciate value insanely, it sounds like you indeed bought a lemon and i'd urge you to seek legal help and see if you can apply the lemon law because that doesn't sound normal at all. Coming from Honda's only, I've had no issue with mine or our 2020 Tucson we recently bought. My good friend has a 2016VT and recently bought a 2020 Genesis and no issues as well. And of course i've met tons of other Hyundai owners with no such radical issues. Again, i'd urge you to seek legal help. I'm sure your view on Hyundai as a whole is tarnished and i'd never fault you for that (considering your experience) but I truly feel you just got extremely unlucky.
I have the 2012 and still have the factory paint and i can tell you it has lost its shining and reflection and looks stained but i guess its normal bcuz of erosion and atmosphere
That's true. It's to be expected. My issue was the quality from the day I bought it but it is what it is.
Have you kept up with detailing it every 3 months. When I got mine I learned how to clay, polish, and wax. I wash when dirty and use a foam cannon. Do a final foam at the end with wash and wax meguires ultimate. I use a 3 in one wax now that it is at a maintain state. I even wax the top glass and all the light housings to prevent hazing from the sun every time I wash.
@@johnm4710 That's really good!
At first glance i thought those products would be harmful for the car painting in long term however i really need them so i will consider polishing and waxing soon!
Thanks!
Found a 2013 with 87k miles. Wanna check it out,only want it for daily driving , worth it?
Honestly I wanna put it on coilovers,just an exhaust,and that’s it I just want to daily jt
@@AmbiguousAndrew For only daily driving, i'd say it should be safe so long as all proper maintenance was done.
Dude, 2015 1.6 turbo, Price around USD 15,500 with 95,000 miles on it. Is it worth the price? From your view, how much it should worth?
I paid 5900 for mine 3 weeks ago, 2014 turbo with 89400 miles
should I buy? found a 2013 with close to 250k miles selling for 4k?
No, I would at least look for a 2014 on up especially at that mileage
@@Chayness I found a 2013, 80K mileage for 7K. worth it?
@@zabiullahMONTAGES did u get it ?
@@shadowrealm8014 no dont have the money lmao
@@zabiullahMONTAGES Depends what you're trying to do with it? Normal daily driving, sure. Heavy track days, i'd look for 2014+
What year is this car?
It is a 2016
How reliable do you think the 2017 Hyundai Veloster non turbo with 120 thousand miles on it? I found one for $10k , it’s beautiful but I’m hesitant. The owner had a check engine light on it one time.
Waiting for a reply to this
Hi I’m thinking of purchasing a 2014 veloster with 111k give or take for around 6k do you think I should go for it ? I’ve had a 2006 Hyundai Elantra and it lasted me a long time so I’m a bit hesitant on getting one with that many miles but do you think it’s worth it ?
Did you get the car?
What year is this
This is a 2016
I have a 2013 VT. It was pre-owned, bought it at 75k miles. I've had it for 2.5 years, put in 28k miles into it. I've had no major issues at all. My windshield water tank JUST went out. I'm a little concerned about that part in your video about '13 models. I've never heard of that before.
If you're not using the car for modifying or driving super aggressively, the 2013 part should be fine.
I'm looking at one of those that has 130K miles on. Do these ones last up to 200K?
Mt water tank went at around 50,000 mi
I have a 2013. The driver's side visor literally blew up last year. The sun in FL does get hot but I don't know anyone else that ever happened to. The plastic inside the visor just expanded & bubbled & blew the thing partially off. Had to take the whole thing off since it was dangling in front of window.
@@marycollins6216 🤣
Found a 2013 veloster turbo thinking about getting it for 10k it has 127k miles
Look around more you can find it cheaper
I also highly recommend avoiding the 2013 turbo. 2014 and later are great but 2013 are a little unreliable
Like Jacob said, i'd try to find a 2014 at least just to be safe
2012 141K miles for 5500? Does that sound ok?
It doesn't sound wrong but the mileage feels high for me.
@@Chayness I ended up getting for 5400
@@chelseamcooke how the car is now ?
@@theguessyt3886 It ended up being a lemon, had a major transmission issue. Sold it back in March.
im looking at a 2016 turbo with 67000 miles
That doesn't sound too bad
How reliable is a 2013 Hyundai Veloster. Found a local one I want at 120k miles
If maintained well and not used to modify, there are plenty examples still doing well.
Just got one that kept giving me a seemingly serious issue the car would lose power at stops have trouble restarting and stay in neutral when it started up it was an easy fix crankshaft position sensor and since than no problems
Keep in mind mine ismt a manual its the dual clutch
@@burnttaco9486 There's actually a current recall on something similar but glad you figured it out!
22:03 im redrawing this but in my style lol and with a middle finger
Share when done yea?
Amma new subscriber
thank you!
paint on my front bumper and hood is trash....pebbles.
Oof I know the feeling
Well already that you’ve had it for 4 years days a lot
You kinda sound like Tyler the creator lol
That's a huge compliment. That guys voice is hella deep though lol
stop saying AAAAAAMMMM this is really anoing !!!!
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