Wait...is Mass Marines the new Meta?

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  • Опубліковано 21 лис 2024
  • ZeloT (Z) vs BishOp (T) on Pantheon, Game 2.
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КОМЕНТАРІ • 300

  • @somekindoflandcow
    @somekindoflandcow 10 годин тому +90

    5:50 I think the word you're looking for is 'intuition' or similar lol

    • @sir0herrbatka
      @sir0herrbatka 9 годин тому +3

      Disco Elysium Shivers ;-)

    • @JCMiniPainting
      @JCMiniPainting 9 годин тому

      Was gonna say the exact same thing. Maybe an argument could be made for "tact"

    • @direct278
      @direct278 9 годин тому

      Yeah, I was going to say "you just intuitively know once you're really familiar with the game."

    • @HoriHorizon
      @HoriHorizon 7 годин тому

      Yeah same word came to me with that question. Intuition fits that perfectly

    • @trololkhil9868
      @trololkhil9868 7 годин тому +6

      "Experience"...they already played so much they can simulate outcomes because they have already tried it so many times. That's not intuition. Intuition would be for example recognising signs of a particular strategy or pincer attack/entrapment/sneak attack approach before it occurs etc.

  • @skcarr4119
    @skcarr4119 9 годин тому +34

    10:48 Owen Wilson joins the cast!

  • @liveandjaphappy
    @liveandjaphappy 10 годин тому +40

    5:20 it’s called chills

  • @EebstertheGreat
    @EebstertheGreat 9 годин тому +20

    11:13 The overlord was definitely a big issue lol, especially the second one. You gotta read the top comments. The supply block was the entire reason Zealot lost last game.

    • @deanmissimer
      @deanmissimer 3 години тому +3

      Yeah I thought it was weird that he missed that both times, especially after everyone in the comments pointed it out last time. Surely he knows that it costs supply to morph lurkers...

  • @alexedingfield5222
    @alexedingfield5222 10 годин тому +8

    The word is automaticity as a math teacher it’s important that previous concepts can be performed automatically so that new concepts can be done with full mental.
    Automaticity is the ability to perform a task without much thought or effort, due to repetition and practice. It's a cognitive process that involves long-term associative connections and requires consistent training to develop.

  • @CorrectHorseBatteryStaple472
    @CorrectHorseBatteryStaple472 5 годин тому +6

    10:15 friendly SCV repairing that hydra den

  • @Bleachz0rs
    @Bleachz0rs 6 годин тому +23

    I think most people would colloquially call it intuition, but it’s actually a heuristic. The idea is relevant in math and computer science (and other fields) as well. Basically over time as our brains access more and more data (through experiences) it builds generalizations that it can apply to situations immediately. So that our brains can be more energy and time efficient (although not perfect). It wouldn’t be practical for our brains to evaluate every relevant related experience before making a decision so instead it just applies a heuristic that it’s built over time. The idea is interesting because you can extrapolate it to other things like cognitive bias, etc., and this is also how our current Large Language Model AIs are working too.

    • @SchemingGoldberg
      @SchemingGoldberg 3 години тому

      In other words... intuition.

    • @hemmydall
      @hemmydall 2 години тому +4

      @@SchemingGoldberg intuition is "feeling" and not always logical. A heuristic is built upon many statistical data and experiences. Both are decision-making tools. In the case of a highly experienced player, they are usually basing a lot of what they do on heuristics.

    • @lsdap1969
      @lsdap1969 2 години тому

      Isnt that just an educated guess?

    • @hemmydall
      @hemmydall 2 години тому

      @@lsdap1969 in effect I suppose? You can program ai or games using heuristics. I wouldn't say you can program things to make guesses without it adding some randomness.

  • @iaml.4290
    @iaml.4290 10 годин тому +9

    From an outside perspective (I don't play), Bishop isnt making enough static defence to give him the freedom to execute the all-in. He has the resources to build maybe another 4-6 turrets which hopefully with better unit grouping can let him overwhelm the Zerg in on offense without being tied to base defence. So the key seems to be smoothening that transition when zerg gets to 12+ mutas and is confident enough to start entering the base and picking off marine clusters.

    • @Stranzua
      @Stranzua 7 годин тому +1

      I've been saying this forever, but Terran tends to build their buildings too spread out. If they can, they're going to have to start building in a way where they can build turrets closer together. Plus, if mass marine is going to catch on, a few more bunkers would help keep the marines alive longer. In my opinion, that would be more efficient than constantly trying to 'catch' the mutas with the marines. They're just too slow.

    • @dj_koen1265
      @dj_koen1265 Годину тому

      @@Stranzua bunkers are too big to place them everywhere, they have less range than turrets also and they arent as flexible

  • @JPR3D
    @JPR3D 4 години тому +3

    I absolutely love sequential games of almost identical builds because it does a great job of teaching you the strengths & weaknesses of the builds, and what stages of the games you really need to be awake for, and what to watch out for. A build is nothing without execution so seeing the builds being executed, I would argue teaches you more about them than just knowing what the builds are and the strategy behind them. Like a build can be "You do this, this, this, and then when you have X number of units you move across the map because you have a timing window before Y enters the game." Ok cool, understandable - What should I be looking out for during my move out aside from the obvious? What are the instances I need to be prepared for that can shift this game subtly or massively even when I'm doing everything right? How much do I need to be pressuring the mutas directly vs getting across the map to make my timing window? Seeing sequential games is the next best thing to doing it and seeing for yourself.

  • @haloreach2074
    @haloreach2074 9 годин тому +14

    The very first game of Starcraft I played my buddy maxed out on marines and sent them to my base. He called it the million man marine march. Glad to see it's comeback

  • @tiborgrun6963
    @tiborgrun6963 4 години тому +1

    It's what's called "System 1" in "Thinking, Fast and Slow" by Daniel Kahneman.

  • @JeemBare
    @JeemBare 10 годин тому +5

    Looked like Bishop had a little bit of excess income, maybe that extra 8th rax, or some additional missile turrets would have tipped the scales and let him get a more critical mass of marines?

  • @Shadowfex
    @Shadowfex 10 годин тому +4

    I've always used the term "instinct" for what you were describing.

  • @ssangry99
    @ssangry99 9 годин тому +5

    5:36 “experience”

  • @RJB_TV
    @RJB_TV 10 годин тому +6

    instinct. intuition. game sense. all based on experience and one's ability to use that experience as a frame work of reference to formulate a solution to a problem on a moment's notice to get the best outcome out of a situation.

  • @RomanHofstätter-i6b
    @RomanHofstätter-i6b 10 годин тому +33

    damn, Mutas ALWAYS look almost invincible to me.

    • @Classic_DionysuS
      @Classic_DionysuS 10 годин тому +4

      go drive around 11+OL around a group of marines and watch how hard it is to keep them alive

    • @2639theboss
      @2639theboss 10 годин тому +6

      ​@@Classic_DionysuS My guy for us its hard just to move overlords and breathe at the same time.

    • @Kilo_Alpha_Delta
      @Kilo_Alpha_Delta 9 годин тому +15

      @@Classic_DionysuS A lot easier than controlling 24+ ground units in 2-3 control groups that need to be constantly replenished all with suicidal tendencies to wander away from the group and get stuck on map geometry, each other, and buildings. Also with very fast macro cycles. I think even most pros admit that SK Terran in general is one of the most APM intensive and difficult playstyles.

    • @moralessanchezoscarelias6412
      @moralessanchezoscarelias6412 8 годин тому +1

      Top level muta micro is terrifying

    • @zfeazcesd1047
      @zfeazcesd1047 6 годин тому

      @@Kilo_Alpha_Delta it's not easier, just different kind of difficult. As Terran you have the luxury of being able to make a lot of mistakes with ur m&m losing lots of marines and still be in a strong position, as zerg u dont. You also have more pressure to get damage done with the mutas than the terran. you're on a timer and if T gets critical mass of m&m or gets vessel ur mutas become useless no matter who you are. you're also on a timer of having to constantly regroup your mutas with a new overlord and not get it killed or u lose supply...and this is difficult enough that pros regularly lose their overlord that's grouped with the muta. just look at how much arty struggles when he plays Z and controls muta.
      i'd also like to see a source for that claim that "most pros think SK terran is one of the most apm intensive and difficult play styles".

  • @VladTchompalov
    @VladTchompalov Годину тому

    1:58 Arty your meta explanations are so goooood

  • @TheDesertSpear
    @TheDesertSpear 9 годин тому +4

    One big difference from game 1... in game 1 he killed an overlord that supply blocked the zerg for a bit

  • @BaconHer0
    @BaconHer0 10 годин тому +26

    5:40 The technical term is "tacit knowledge", Artosis

    • @jakovmatosic4890
      @jakovmatosic4890 10 годин тому

      Tacit knowledge is a great term thanks

    • @MrRyant66
      @MrRyant66 9 годин тому +1

      Special tatics

    • @Dhovakim
      @Dhovakim 9 годин тому +3

      I was gonna say gamesense

    • @JaTinker
      @JaTinker 9 годин тому

      @@Dhovakim I was thinking this too

    • @davidm2031
      @davidm2031 9 годин тому +1

      ​@@jakovmatosic4890eh more intuition. But the terms are adjacent.

  • @MORJDK
    @MORJDK 4 години тому +1

    New drinking game. Take a shot each time Artosis gets chills.

    • @SchemingGoldberg
      @SchemingGoldberg 3 години тому

      Instructions unclear, I'm now in the hospital from alcohol poisoning.

  • @evilteddy11
    @evilteddy11 3 години тому

    Lots of good answers for 5:50 in the comments. Another possibility is calling it gestalt reasoning (or as they call it, at least in healthcare contexts, a clincal gestalt or simply gestalt). It's pattern recognition reasoning based on percieving the whole collectively based on experience. The weakness is its hard to teach, but the strength is you can do it without a more lengthy analytical process. It's a type of heuristic reasoning (another good suggestion).

  • @admireinspire
    @admireinspire 2 години тому

    Internalizing the build timings via hp/game timer is what I call seeing through the matrix.

  • @JohnDobak
    @JohnDobak 6 годин тому +1

    5:30 I'd call it reflexive thought, or decision making. It's a trained response.

  • @TKGameGuy
    @TKGameGuy 5 хвилин тому

    5:36 "game sense" or "situational awareness" are how I generally describe it; maybe "recognizing positional strength" or similar.

  • @zfeazcesd1047
    @zfeazcesd1047 6 годин тому

    I think what you're describing is game sense or intuition that allows an experienced player to accurately predict outcomes of battles before they occur. I don't know if there is a word that accurately and concisely describes that process, but it's an automatic evaluation that is based on experience and game knowledge. Every experienced BW player has seen this exact engagement enough to know without having to think that committing to the attack results in a worse position for Terran...but even if the engagement is slightly different or unique you still use your knowledge of the units and the numerous engagements you have seen in the past to be able to sense whether it's worth engaging or not.

  • @wre0618
    @wre0618 10 годин тому +1

    Tacit knowledge or implicit knowledge-as opposed to formalized, codified or explicit knowledge-is knowledge that is difficult to express or extract; therefore it is more difficult to transfer to others by means of writing it down or verbalizing it. This can include motor skills, personal wisdom, experience, insight, and intuition. - Wikipedia

  • @JerzyJerzowski
    @JerzyJerzowski 7 годин тому +1

    Yo!
    I play a nice nontcg deckbuilder called Star Realms, where I tackle the same thing, where sometimes you just know what will/can happen. It is based on experience and mostly you don't think about it, but you can overwrite it with concious decision when there is a non typical condition.
    I call it subconcious decision tree. When you spare your brain resources in order to use them more effitiently somewhere else.
    If you base only on it - you play mindless standard meta game. And you probably miss that edge case scenario that could give you win.
    Game/tactical experience is simply adjusting that subconcious decision tree based on your experiencs/outside knowledge.
    After all both games are form of poker. :)
    You'd be surprised how your streams helped me achieve championship in Star Realms.

  • @rodrigomarchioli2707
    @rodrigomarchioli2707 56 хвилин тому

    The thing you were trying to say for me, as a philosopher, I would call intuition.

  • @kuilu
    @kuilu 4 години тому

    Thoughtless, Intuition, a lot of words for this exact feeling and skill you hone down for so long.

  • @Kardis
    @Kardis Годину тому

    The word you're looking for is Eudaimonia. It's from ancient Greek, and often gets translated as "happiness", but actually refers to a state of being where you fully comprehend and understand the world or situation you're in to the greatest extent humanly possible. In moments of Eudaimonia, you are the best human you could ever be in that situation. For more information, please read The Nichomachean Ethics, by Aristotle. Edit to provide a pronunciation guide: you-die-moe-knee-uh

  • @bendangeruss501
    @bendangeruss501 7 годин тому

    I would enjoy seeing this play out 10 times in a row. These guys give us a great game.

  • @TheJundPlayer
    @TheJundPlayer 42 хвилини тому

    I believe the word you are looking for Artosis is intuition. There is a certain amount of intuition players have towards certain situations in knowing how to play and react.

  • @Medinaxz
    @Medinaxz 10 годин тому +1

    Bishop was floating a lot of minerals near the end. Is 8 barracks going to keep his money down, or would it be better to dedicate some SCVs to put up more turrets? As you said, he never hit a critical mass of marines... And he had 700-800 minerals floating for a couple minutes at least. I wonder if a bunker or two would've helped...Ah, just armchair theory. But the massive mineral float on 7 barracks makes me think he couldn't get enough forces out.

  • @joshua3196
    @joshua3196 9 годин тому +1

    I thought the supply block in the first game delayed lurker production resulting in Terran win

  • @kilmindaro3
    @kilmindaro3 3 години тому

    lol at that SCV plinking away at the hydra den

  • @mes4925
    @mes4925 6 годин тому

    I would describe it as a “mental shortcut” where your experience tells you how much time it takes your X number of units to kill a thing. In this case you know the “build time remaining cutoff” for 5 marines.

  • @iiroaro808
    @iiroaro808 10 годин тому +1

    5:40 I'd call accurate, snap decision making based on feel and intuition like that "game sense"

  • @stevemattero1471
    @stevemattero1471 10 годин тому +1

    @6:00 it's just a sense you buid after years of playing. I would describe it as instinct, but it's not exactly instinct any more than it’s muscle memory

  • @godlyobject6509
    @godlyobject6509 5 годин тому

    5:50 "Instinct"

  • @tellumyort
    @tellumyort 10 годин тому

    My hope is that this extends to a best of 100 series.

  • @TravisFawver
    @TravisFawver 7 годин тому

    A larger component of this is what we in a corporate environment would refer to as 'Risk Tolerance'.
    Typically the math being done isnt just 'he has more than me' but more-so is in line of 'what are the odds of me winning/losing based on this move'.

  • @EMP3rr0R
    @EMP3rr0R 3 години тому

    5:48 intuition (the word you were looking for)

  • @christianflanery8839
    @christianflanery8839 Годину тому

    Pattern recognition is the phrase Artosis was looking for I think. A chess kind of thing.

  • @noonefromnowhere99
    @noonefromnowhere99 5 годин тому

    Yes, I do enjoy it, shows just how tight these builds need to be with their timings.

  • @TheSuperappelflap
    @TheSuperappelflap 10 годин тому

    I would word the thing about being able to tell in advance whats going to happen "calling fights" specifically in RTS games

  • @riddler143
    @riddler143 6 годин тому

    Seemed like to me bishop really needed to drop 5-6 more turrets, so he could trap the mutas, he was floating a ton of minerals, so it really seems like he can afford it after getting the rax up

  • @Jaces87
    @Jaces87 7 хвилин тому

    If he goes 7racks then that allows him to be able to add even more turrets which would ultimately punish doing a muta drive-by. From there terran just have to pile up its army and push before lurker.
    Thought?

  • @simonchai3040
    @simonchai3040 10 годин тому +1

    Brood war is great. So many ways to play it

  • @TamásIstvánBarbarics
    @TamásIstvánBarbarics 8 годин тому

    I think the term you're looking for is "intuition" which is subconscious pattern recognition.

  • @wargumbyx
    @wargumbyx 8 годин тому

    it looks like the term is either experiential knowledge or practical knowledge. both seem to deal with knowledge gained through experience things a lot rather than simply reading about it or hearing about it

  • @trumpisbackboi
    @trumpisbackboi 7 годин тому

    5:00 situation awareness is the word u look for

  • @skyvipers
    @skyvipers 10 годин тому +1

    @ 5:40 - It's called "wisdom" (mental-memory 😁)

  • @timesathousand
    @timesathousand 2 години тому

    The phrase you want is "Snap Judgement"

  • @darkchaos454
    @darkchaos454 7 годин тому +1

    "automatic calculation in your head" Damn Arty that was kind of a burn. No I don't "automatically calculate the outcome" of positions! Some of us aren't gaming prodigies like you and need to consciously calculate this shit.
    Also I think the word you are looking for is 'intuition' or 'reflex' (maybe 'default mode network').

  • @jakovmatosic4890
    @jakovmatosic4890 10 годин тому +1

    It's called an instict or intuition when you know when to not attack. Maybe trained instinct?

  • @telepromptsigh
    @telepromptsigh 9 годин тому

    For 2 games so similar you could do a back-n-forth analysis where you comment 3-4 minutes of each game then switch. With special focus on the diverging points. Might be a lot of editing work, but I'd watch it.

  • @Chamuzi
    @Chamuzi 5 годин тому

    Good to be back on AYAYAcasts.

  • @mateuspopoff
    @mateuspopoff 10 годин тому

    I really enjoy play with marines only! It's very fun! Glad to see marines crushing in the ladder

  • @johnnyboy3563
    @johnnyboy3563 5 годин тому

    New chills unlocked - Brain Rejiggering!

  • @ozar_midrashim
    @ozar_midrashim 6 годин тому

    And here we can see why mass Mutalisk was such a winning strategy in Original versus the Terrans. Even with Medics added, Terran eventually needs Science Vessels to eliminate the Muta threat, let alone fight Mutalisks + Lurkers.
    It's so annoying that the outcome of this matchup hinges on who better controls their caster units.

  • @scottc9151
    @scottc9151 7 годин тому

    I would give my life to have Arto+Tasteless cast the ASL S6 Finals

  • @tolearnandteach2595
    @tolearnandteach2595 7 годин тому

    You weren't building up, you were glazing so hard you forgot to pay attention to the game 😂

  • @riuoku
    @riuoku 10 годин тому

    IT'S BEEN MONTHS SINCE LAST FLASH GAME... ARTOSIS HAVE SOME MERCY

  • @skieinc
    @skieinc 8 годин тому

    I would say the term is "situational awareness".

  • @Plexzor
    @Plexzor 10 годин тому +1

    the previous game bishop managed to supply block zelot a couple of times. might have also have been one of the reasons he managed to supply block zelot at a crucial time last game.

  • @fredskou7787
    @fredskou7787 Годину тому

    @5:00 Pattern recognition

  • @stefanc4520
    @stefanc4520 10 годин тому

    I think the analogy you're looking for is "Second Nature".
    So it's second nature for pros to know when to commit or not😊

  • @sti8116
    @sti8116 7 годин тому

    I think the best term is pattern recognition. Players have seen the exact situation enough times that they simply know diving on the sunken simply won't work.

  • @kairosgaming9523
    @kairosgaming9523 10 годин тому +1

    Hi artosis, big fan. Do you mean the word "intuition" ?

  • @BrandonAbel01
    @BrandonAbel01 3 години тому

    Based on the fingers i counted with my one hand and a few on the other didn't Terran build one less barracks this game. That's one marine less every cycle the whole time the Mutas were on his case.

  • @philipclements2912
    @philipclements2912 9 годин тому

    This was a great series of games

  • @PoisonousChickens
    @PoisonousChickens Годину тому

    The word you’re looking for is instinct

  • @saulhudson1199
    @saulhudson1199 6 годин тому

    intuition ;) basically mostly when you lose you intuitively discard something that the other pressed deeper, and Im not writing about ladder games here :)

  • @mxecho
    @mxecho 10 годин тому

    if you play marine medic right its the best glass cannon the game has. Personally im all about glass cannons, as a human with weapons, its the most natural. Also the health v damage calculation, is just that a calculation. you could say the "calculus of the engagement" as it can be expressed as a rate of change function, just like the 2 trains leave stations problem.

  • @Societyman123
    @Societyman123 10 годин тому +1

    5:40 Game Sense

  • @GraafBaki
    @GraafBaki 10 годин тому

    5:15 it's called a reflex

  • @susugam3004
    @susugam3004 10 годин тому

    the word is intuition. you have intuition with experience. you intuit rather than use your senses/thoughts.

  • @Picaroon9
    @Picaroon9 9 годин тому

    I wonder how Valkyrie rushes do against Zelot. He seems so all-in with Muta pressure that a, theoretical, hard counter seems like it should do well.

  • @ToyohisaTV
    @ToyohisaTV 9 годин тому

    5:20 - decision making

  • @pivorsc
    @pivorsc 5 годин тому +1

    Mutalisk good unit toi have

  • @Farkmaster
    @Farkmaster 10 годин тому +8

    "Procedural memory" is the cognitive equivalent of muscle memory. You dont need to consciously process or even do the maths on a typical encounter within the game, your brain essentially skips to the conclusion, or effortlessly and unconciously processes the inputs, based on deeply engrained experience of running that process, initially more conciously. What is distinct about this and muscle memory, is that eventually procedural memory gives way to just memory, in that you arent performing the task faster due to the well-worn process. Rather the procedure/the cognitive processing can be almost lost entirely. You arent tabulating any longer how an encounter will go, it is instead just axiomatic. These processes can be wrong/maladaptive too, and still engrained.

    • @Timmberman12
      @Timmberman12 9 годин тому

      Muscle memory is the colloquial term for procedural memory

  • @fliphated
    @fliphated 7 годин тому +6

    5:50 - This is pattern recognition. You've just seen it so many times, you instantly know what the outcome will be. It's like in chess when you see that your knight can fork the king and queen. Just the threat of that pattern executing will determine the prior moves in order to prevent/defend it since everyone knows what happens when the pattern is realized!

  • @kudosjp2
    @kudosjp2 33 хвилини тому

    I feel like a bunker would have stabilized the nat harrass enough for critical mm mass, not to mention that huge mjneral bank...

  • @Alvesinater
    @Alvesinater 9 годин тому

    I think the term is "Game Awareness"
    For example: Artosis has such good game awareness in real life that he can trick me into commenting on a video for that sweet sweet algorithm

  • @Larsgman
    @Larsgman 7 годин тому

    I think the supply block played the biggest factor. Not only do you blow up 100 minerals for him (IIRC), but halting unit production completely is far more crippling than Arty might be willing to admit.

  • @gamesbygrigg7447
    @gamesbygrigg7447 8 годин тому

    The difference between the matches is losing the first 6 lings does critical mental damage that you can't come back from.

  • @911bobiscool
    @911bobiscool 8 годин тому

    Wisdom. He was wise enough not to dive onto the sunken.

  • @Zadrigo
    @Zadrigo 4 години тому

    "Playing Terran is hard, Terran is the hardest race, its so easy to loose as Terran because its unforgiving..." Meanwhile you build several most basic production structures and start printing the most basic and cheapest army unit and thats it.

  • @brazilstreets7955
    @brazilstreets7955 5 годин тому

    That’s called experience arty

  • @somaloll
    @somaloll 10 годин тому

    mutalisk really look like tvz's version of blink stalkers in tvp from sc2

  • @infl8r2012
    @infl8r2012 10 годин тому

    I'm already feeling the chills

  • @BradSamuelsPro
    @BradSamuelsPro 4 години тому

    5:30 GAME SENSE

  • @ottomann4846
    @ottomann4846 13 хвилин тому

    Pattern recognition is how I would call it

  • @pj95060
    @pj95060 6 годин тому

    Intuition, is the word you want.

  • @sergiorodriguez6316
    @sergiorodriguez6316 3 години тому

    pattern recognition would be the term, you can tell how things are going to go, just by looking at it

  • @NBlakeslee
    @NBlakeslee 5 годин тому

    Hey Artosis! Always hop in to watch these games and others, I actually ended up joining your Stormgate stream and watched your Twitch stream for the first time. Quick question about your twitch chat: what the fuck?

  • @lorenzozinna4700
    @lorenzozinna4700 3 години тому +1

    GAME SENSE

  • @JDirty-w-tha-30
    @JDirty-w-tha-30 2 години тому

    I would call that automatic calculation either intuition like others are saying or "game sense" in the context of gaming.

  • @diegoalfonsosalgarsarmient8254
    @diegoalfonsosalgarsarmient8254 2 години тому

    The word is judgement. Intuition could be the word, but if your intuition failsm i would call it bad judgement. Bad judgment is the inability to make appropriate decisions

  • @pallytime2156
    @pallytime2156 10 годин тому

    Damn... you see that sick SCV Drill to get his marines to the muta's faster... don't see that often