As an ISTP I've come to a similar conclusion. Personally, I believe Ti (in an ISTP at least) is about principles and congruence of people and things as they pertain to the concrete world. So, this means our Fi has to be explainable somehow. We can't just like or believe something without explanation. It has to 'make sense' in reality. For example, I can't just find a woman attractive - I have to track the exact reasons of why I do, often to the point I am no longer interested. Most times I can't just let Fi be Fi. I need it to be explainable otherwise I'll feel dumb and I think people will think I'm an idiot because I can't explain what I personally believe in.
Thanks for the comment! That's a really cool thing to hear. I don't know why but it's always comforting to hear thoughts from that Ti point of view, I find people with Ti hero often help me rationalise my Fi and helps give me confidence.
As an INFP, weirdly enough (I don't know if other INFPs may relate) I tend to do something similar. I guess I do fear being criticized quite a lot because of what I have already faced, to the point where I now focus on my T functions a lot more recently. The part where my Ti runs in the background and mends all the cracks in my Fi seems to be on overdrive and it no longer feels like an unconscious process. Heck, now a part of me even seems to be pretty good at spotting loopholes and fallacies, and I guess I no longer feel like I'm no longer as forgiving as I used to be. In a way, I have embraced my demon function (and even my inferior function Te to an extent), and now I am engulfed in it. That being said, I still can't express my process well, especially out of the blue (unless I am defensive, in which case what comes out would at best be a convoluted mess that barely resembles my original reasoning), and despite me sharing a lot in common with my INTP bestie, I don't feel like I could even come close to his level of Ti usage. (P.S. I am not a native English speaker, and I would like to apologize in advance for any grammatical errors made in this reply)
I think with Ti every feeling is almost instantly thrown into ratio where the analog signal so to say is transformed into a digital code that can be used to calculate . Add while you can reason with feelings to create distance, I've come to the realization lately that I think Ti supresses the Fi feelings because feleings are meant to be experienced and felt and not thought about. So I au curious how many Ti doms actually have supressed emotions that somehow are dormant in themselves and never really get the chance to get out spontanious. Where FI doms often seem to cry, it's sometimes seen as weak or whatever but they really digest the emotional content of their feelings, while we do not tend to do that. I think i've cried less than 5 times the last 20 years, despite having a relatively difficult live with lots of objective struggles (health issues for exmaple). I wish I could cry more often cause i think it would help me acccept things deep down. Also after drying people often seem very calm. So it seems quite functional in tat sense too. However, back to the topic..i think Ti and Fi are just like cities in the same region. They're in the same region, but not exactly in the same place. Their basis works the same but is somewhat different. I also believe most people are not 100% ti or 100% Fi ..I think a lot are somewhat in between that. However, it does not really have a name, but just like colors it would make far more sense why endless similar types are still quite different people. The most 100% intp might be very robotic whereas the INTP that is abit closer to INFP is not..
I'm an intp, lots of my close friends and family have told me I'm good at reading people, I'm really empathetic but I can also be extremely cold hearted. Also I'm really really funny
I have a friend who is INTP and I'm an INFP. I love personality stuff. And what I've observed is that he loves getting deeper into subjects to try to understand the world to get to the truth. Why do things work? Ti is very much try to break things down into smaller and smaller chunks to try to get to the fundamentals of why the truth is the truth. Fi is very similar. But in my perception, instead of focusing on objective facts, it focuses on subjective truths. I like to break down morals into fine lined definitions of "why do I work"? And then live a life based on those universal truths you've experienced or contemplated. Maybe this is me, but I love clearly defined life quotes that inspire and motivate. Because something in them resonates in a way of how to life a better life.
Oh I love how you described my exact thoughts, that’s how I interact with my Ti hero friends. They break things down systematically - and I really respect and enjoy that - and then my subjective truths and ideas about value play off nicely in discussions with them and they seem to respect my conclusions too…complimentary rather than at odds. So I often see Ti in conflict with Fe and Te, and Fi in conflict with Fe and Te as well 🤣 On rare occasions I’ve seen Fi and Ti clash…very rarely. And I guess both introverts are sensitive to it and avoid it anyway.
I have a pretty high Te thanks to my restaurant work, and I often find Ti to clash with Te more. Sometimes they both can get to the same conclusion, but Ti is inward logical thinking and Te tries to actively organize environment. Ti is better at building systems Te is better at putting systems into practice Thats kind of where they clash. Ti can build a perfect logical system, but Te will always ask, "ok, lets see if it will work then." Which Ti's don't like. I haven't experienced much Fe to Fi conflict. Fe allows an individuals to adapt to their surroundings easier. So Fi is thinking, "This is me This is how I think." And Fe outwardly is saying, "yep. thats you." Intps have low Fe, so often it's not developed. But high developed intps, they can be anyone.
I think Fi is more philosophical, it analyses concepts in order to relate to the self values. So more questioning about what's the point of life, how do this relates to me, etc. While Ti would be more to the hard sciences.
I really appreciate your openness to all of this, because I constantly think that these introverted functions are sometimes difficult to differentiate in their dynamic happenings. I think I use introverted think a good bit though it is not in my function stack.
This was so obvious to me even since the day that I started getting familiar with cognitive functions, yet when you look at all the MBTI theories they're like 'nope, you do not have even a bit of Fi, not even a little'. That just never made sense to me, and so I searched more. And so apparently it turns out that while yes there is a very likely connection between T & F, N & S functions, according to socionics (as per what I've heard from type youtubers on here) it seems to be that at least half of all people are able to develop their 8th function to be up to as strong as their 2nd function as they mature, and this happens with all types. It's been called a 'role function' apparently, a function that you come to value for situations that you might need them, but ultimately loses out to your preferred dominant functions. I don't think this works for all positions though. It's interesting that the only examples that you gave were pertaining to the dominant functions of each type. To me for example, as much as I like ENFPs (Ti blindspot), they remain frustratingly blind to any kind of Ti based 'fairness' principles and hence come off as a bit self centered and even entitled at their worst, whereas I find that INFPs on the other hand, even though love viewing the world through their preferred first person view, are able to step back and view themselves from a top down Ti like perspective as well and figure out how their actions might affect their surroundings. I'm also mindful of keeping some of my ENTP friends away from my Fi dom friends lest they run a tank over their Fi as they sometimes do, whereas myself as a Ti dom seem to connect to their Fi with no real problems. I still do think that Fi & Ti are connected in an inexplicable way though, I'm still trying to figure that out. Sorry if this was too long, here's a couple of videos explaining it better than I can, cheers :) ua-cam.com/video/OIHWe_a0AoE/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/oybKUDzrTA8/v-deo.html
Thanks for that link and the comment, I think I relate and agree with everything you said. I think I should have really discussed that idea in the video, it's what sparked me off actually: how INTPs and INFPs seem to have a wonderful back and forth between Fi and Ti, whereas ENTPs and INFPs, as you said, that Fi really doesn't flow well between the two types. I feel very relaxed around ENTPs, probably because I find Ti and Ne appealing - but I do find that they often seem confused and distressed by my Fi hero, which can lead to a lot of misunderstandings. I guess the Ti perspectives with ENTPs can also irritate me, but I think like you said, it's more the 'running a tank over Fi' that causes me issues. I should probably confess I have an ENTP mother haha...
It's because as an introvert, you take responsibility for all your introverted functions, so even if your Fi is supposed to be your weakest function, you are not blind to it because you take responsibility for it, hence you can understand why some people have values. ENTPs on the other hand are literally detached from any kind of value system so they don't seem to get why others have it. However, they have a functional Fe to be able to fake affection, so they aren't as cold as INTPs. Well-developed Fe in ENTPs can result to ESFJ-like behaviour when need to be.
@@thesilenttreatment6837 Ah, I couldn't agree more - that's exactly the way I see so many ENTPs XD in a similar way to how INFPs can result in very ISTJ behaviour, I suppose, or ENFPs can even seem like ESTJs at times.
Vondelpete please continue! I haven't seen you in my feed for weeks so I had to come hunt you down in my follow list to see if you'd released any new material. You had not :( If you're out there chasing some other butterfly, good on you! Such is INFP life. Personally I'd like to see more of you. You make me chuckle!
Finally a video that highlights the similarity between Ti and Fi, thank you! 🙏 Recently I've come to understand that each person's cognitive stack is composed of the functions one uses *instinctively* (as opposed to the functions outside of the stack, which might be reflected in one's learned behaviors but are technically not being used instinctively), but that doesn't really help me much to figure out which are my preferences, since "what makes sense" and "what is right" often coincide for me (and sometimes, due to factors like anxiety, I end up *not* doing what both makes sense and is right, lol). Even in topics that are seen mainly as a matter of empathy/sympathy, I can still logically think about them and arrive to the same conclusion as if I relied in my values alone. It's really a matter of looking at *all* the relevant premises and not falling for false premises (something which some self-claimed "logical/rational" people often neglect to do 🙃), and the valid (and true) conclusions will likely match any decent value system. Now, being imperfect by nature, humans won't be able to stick to this 100% of the time, regardless of whether their underlying preference is logic-based or value-based, so yeah. It's complicated 😂 Anyways, due to this, it took me the longest time to figure out whether I was an INFP or INTP (even with the help of an INTP friend who's very knowledgeable in MBTI). I guess being an INFP with 5w6 as the Enneagram might cut it, but it's still not 100% obvious for me whether I'm preferentially using Fi or Ti in most situations 😅 So I relate quite a bit to some of the points in your video, in that the underlying preference can be quite a mysterious process.
I love this comment, I think you’ve really put your finger on something here that I wasn’t able to understand at first - I guess it’s all about integrating all the parts of our mind, which hopefully we do automatically - occasionally I’ve also come across the self-proclaimed ‘rational/logical’ people neglecting to properly absorb as many premises as possible. I think this comes from over-confidence in rationality. I think Fi users can also fall prey to being overconfident in their values before critically assessing them, but in these modern times - where everything is supposed to have a scientific explanation - I think Fi users are forced from a young age to be more rational and logical, or at least feel guilty if they’re not at least trying. But then again I’ve noticed many Ti users do the same thing in reverse, using moral and value-based judgements to balance out their logical analysis. But as usual I’m speculating :) thanks so much for the insightful comment!
@@vondelpete Thank you! I think the issue of neglecting some premisses (aside from the lack of access to them, ofc) might have more to do with confirmation bias, which is something anyone can be vulnerable to, regardless of being "feelers" or "thinkers". I think that confirmation bias is just more expected to come from "feelers", but it happens a lot with "thinkers" too (and some of them will just be too stubborn to acknowledge that because they're so ✨rational ✨, haha). So, in a way, people's personal feelings will always get in the way a little, regardless of whether one is more focused on their personal values or on the logical process. But back to the original point: I think, while for some people it might be obvious that they're preferring the logical process or a moral/values code, for others (like me), as you said, it's a kind of automatic integration. It's rare that my logical process and my values colide; it's much more likely that my anxiety will colide with both of them 🤣 In that sense, the default preference can be difficult to assess, which might lead to a certain similarity between Ti and Fi users (in addition to the explicit efforts that you mentioned).
This is very accurate, Fi and Ti converge into one. A decent value base(Fi) can be explained logically. Irrational values(Fi) don't adhere to logic(Ti).
@@kenmusyoka I wouldn't say that they always coincide since logic could also be used to explain a not so great value base, but I definitely agree that a good value base should, for the most part, adhere to a correct logic, since it should rely on true premises and arrive to true conclusions that are also valid regarding the premises.
If you the Sakinorva test you see how your functions sit in your personality make up. I am an INTP but that is borderline on the T/F axis. Not too borderline - I always test INTP with about 55-45 percent T over F. The Sakinorva test shoes my highest function is Ti (obviously). But it also shows my Fi is very high. On the bottom of the scale is shows my Fe is not high, but my Te and Se are even lower. In other words, I register INTP because combined my Ti and Te are higher than my Fi and Fe. So I'm a thinker, showing that preference However, the real pattern is strong preference for introverted functions (Ti, Fi and Si) over extroverted functions (Te, Fe and Se). The exception is Ne over Ni. However both Ne and Ni are very high. The fact is we have all the functions - INTPs like me can also have very high Fi - it's my 3rd highest function. Even so, it is not in my primary function stack. That doesn't mean I am not using Fi - it just means as Fi and Ti are binary, my preference has ended up being Ti. We all use all the functions.
I did it and it returned INFP 1st and INTP 3rd. Thanks, I used to test intp in other mbti tests but recently I started to ask whether I was an Infp after understanding better what Fi is.
I think the difference between logical Ti or Te decisions and emotional Fi or Fe based decisions has to do with a tradeoff between how complicated/fine the decision is, and how explainable/reproducible it is. Logic is actually quite a coarse mechanism, and can only be done very simply (unless you outsource to a computer or something). It's sacrificing how delicate and specific intuitive emotion based decisions can be so that it can be explained either to oneself or to others. I mean, the only way you can say something is logical to begin with is if you can detail each step in the process in a way that makes sense. Like writing a proof. So, in order to better balance logic and emotion, one has to recognize when it's more important to make sure every part of a decision is understood and makes sense, vs when it's more important to make a decision with your mind's full complicated capacity, whether you understand it or not.
Ti is only logical to you but not in the eyes of others. I’ve been told many times that I’m a bit illogical/my logic is weird/hard to understand etc. Ti focuses on what makes sense to you, gathering pieces of knowledge, becoming smarter by every fragment of new info, exploration, research. However, I hate explaining my ideas, sometimes I cannot even back my ideas with facts and proper explanation, it just makes sense to me for some reason. Implementing knowledge and practical usage are weak spots of both INFP and INTP, so they appear kinda similar. I’m still cannot tell precisely whether I’m INTP or INFP. For example, I’m also sensitive to criticism, especially when someone criticizes or judges my knowledge and abilities, that can hurt a lot. I like to say I don’t care about others’ opinions, yet the truth is that I kinda do and those affect me. I like making people talking about themselves so that I don’t have to talk about myself. I don’t like being known haha.
I think that what you described sounds exactly like INTP actually. I personally have the same problem and still am not sure whether I‘m INTP or INFP. Ne aux and Si tertiary along with Se polr definitely make sense for me, so I can’t be anything else than an INxP. But what you described there with the part that you actually do get affected by other people‘s opinions, that definitely sounds more like INTP than INFP due to inferior Fe, while INFP having Fi as their dominant function, they usually are much more focused on letting their authenticity shine on the outside without caring about other people‘s opinions on them AS LONG AS they are being themselves and just living life as who they are. While INTP on the other hand struggle with inferior Fe and therefore tend to be very socially awkward and very sensitive as well. INFP will be much more focused on expressing their differences and stand out, while INTP with inferior Fe rather feel uncomfortable when standing out too much, therefore they‘ll rather try to remain indifferent (this would then be them staying in their comfort zone, because INTP is worried that people would find them weird, if they stand out like that). Personally I believe it’s wrong to think that inferior Fe means „no empathy“ and „no emotions“ or „insensitive“, because that doesn’t even make sense. We humans are so complex and BOTH logic and emotions are a part of us which IS what makes each and every one of us so complex and individual. Fi and Te can‘t work without each other, as well as Ti and Fe. They all work together hand in hand. And it’s also wrong to see it this way that F literally only means emotional and T only means logical. I‘d rather say that F just stand for values, while T stands for reasons. So for Ti dom and Fe inferior I‘d say that it’s not about „I‘m a robot who only thinks logical and has no feelings and also doesn’t care about feelings“, instead I‘d say that it’s about the struggle to understand social values/norms(Fe) and acting according to those Fe rules, while your Ti dom is trying to make sense out of everything and finding „personal reasons“ (Ti) for why you‘d agree with some of those Fe values. Therefore there will be a lot of conflict between what people expect from you(Fe) and what you yourself believe makes sense to you(Ti) and since you rather prefer to listen to your Ti it can make you have alot of trouble socially and how people view you (for example imagine a Ti dom girl and everyone expects her to dress nicely and put on some make-up, but she’s not gonna do it, because it doesn’t make sense to her to do all that, therefore alot of people will criticize her for not being „girly“ enough and for not fitting into society standards(Fe)). So, as a Ti dom you sometimes have trouble to act according to what is expected of you, since sometimes some of those things just don’t make sense to you, so why would you even do that, right? BUT, because IxTP‘s still have Fe and it’s not avoidable(because all functions are still a part of you), IxTP‘s do still care about what other people think of them, therefore it can lead to IxTP‘s feeling insecure and this is also what makes them so socially awkward, because they are aware of how they have trouble with Fe and how they struggle to fit into the world like that, because when smth just doesn’t make sense to their Ti, they just don’t do it, which then causes other people criticizing them for their decisions. So I really think that the dominant and inferior function represent a big conflict that is happening inside of you (INTP is Ti-Fe conflict and INFP is Fi-Te conflict) and NOT Ti-dom is incapable of feeling/empathy while Fi-dom is incapable of logical thinking. Nonsense. It’s literally impossible to be a human without logic or without feeling. That’s literally what makes us humans so different from any other living being and that is our high intelligence and complex emotions with abstract logic. I myself am INCREDIBLY empathic and I usually always considered myself an emotional and sensitive person. When I did the 16p test back in the days I first got INFP all the time and later on got ENFP(and since I was still thinking in the letter typing way I thought „ohh, I‘m more extroverted now?“ xD) and I didn’t question xNFP, because I thought „yeah, I‘m an emotional mess…yeah“. Untill my friends and I learned about cognitive functions and we actually thought that Fi literally does not exist in me, so I can’t be an xNFP and I first thought that I have Fe and Te (I didn’t know yet that they have to be opposites xD), but my friends were like „NOOO TI, YOU ARE SUCH A TI USER“, and I was so confused, because I literally didn’t see that and I thought like „what? That’s not me…..or am I?“ and my friends were just like „YES YES, LITERALLY“. So our first conclusion for me actually was ENTP, because we definitely didn’t doubt Ne for me xD but after getting deeper into mbti and cognitive functions, I came to notice that despite how strong my Ne is, my Si can‘t be inferior. That’s why I am now 100% sure that I‘m an INxP (my extreme lack of Se is also incredibly obvious in me istg). Now, although it makes sense that I‘m Fe>Fi and Ti>Te and since I‘m an INxP, the only possible type for me is INTP then. But I‘m still not sure, because of how INTP‘s are seen and described and also because I totally don’t fit into all of those INTP stereotypes and stuff. Also whenever I see those other edgy INTP‘s online who really consider themselves „emotionless“ and „apathic“, it really makes me question everything again, because I‘m not like that…I am very VERY emapathic and compassionate and I do have emotions. But if I go after all of the things I explained in this comment myself, then I do see myself as INTP. I‘m just very confused honestly, it’s EITHER I‘m right and I AM the actual INTP, while the other‘s are just some edgy „wannabe“ INTP‘s who are NT supremacists and like to feel themselves and act all cold and rude like the stereotypes (literally just so childish, toxic and immature…ridiculous) OR I am mistaken and they are all the right INTP‘s and I have to reconsider my type again. I‘m actually interested in what you have to say now. Thanks for reading, if you actually read everything :“)
"I like to say I don't care about others' opinions, yet the truth is that I kinda do and those affect me." I really relate to that. I keep telling people that I couldn't care less about what people think about me. That I honestly don't care and that I am confident in my abilities. But the truth is, that's just how I wish to be, not how I am in the present moment.
@@hel.x3648 This was worded perfectly. I'm pretty sure that I am an INTP, based on the cognitive functions, but I keep questioning if I really am an INTP since many INTP's online, as you said claim they are they are cold and emotionless when that would ACTUALLY mean they are psychopaths. Feelings and logic are very much part of what a human is. One thing cannot exist without the other. We use ALL of the functions all the time, even our shadow functions. It's just that some are more prominent than the others and are used in a different way. Of course inferior fe can result in having trouble expressing emotions in emotional moments, which can come of as cold/apathetic, but for me personally, that's only when I'm not that close to that person. If one of my best friends are emotional I will try to give them comfort by really listening and help them get through that emotional time, even though I am awkward with it and sometimes don't really know what to do, it still distresses me to see them feel that way and I will at least try to make them feel better. Those previously mentioned INTP's are most likely mistyped and want to be "edgy" by being an NT type for some reason that probably has to do with villains in movies, books etc. that are mistyped as NT's, which has become so normalized, like wtf it's literally just a categorization of how people think and react to experiences, and as a tool for self-improvement. And it's not helping that the mbti meme culture has an NT bias, which also is heavily stereotyped. Unfortunately, this results in people like us, who take the time to research their functions, being unsure of whether our conclusion is correct.
Also OMG ive been waiting for someone to compare the functions in this manner. You’ve said all the thoughts I’ve been having and developing✨pls make more
To me personally my Ti processes are extremely transparent, supported by Si and the large amounts of data Ne gathers, soaks up. The mysterious function is more like my Fe when I sometimes "feel" something is off about the atmosphere between ppl, that something is up, someone is upset but I don't understand how I know that or the details of it. Then I consciously use Ti and Ne to try to deduce that. My Fi is very poor (obviously, being the last shadow function...), I struggle to know how I feel and try to just analyse everything that led up to this moment, compare with prev experiences or they way other ppl similar to me tend to react (through engaging Fe). I know who I am, but not what I feel about new things, if that makes sense. It takes a long time of conscious processing and taking apart everything to figure it out and trying very very hard to do so without bias so that I don't "see what I wish to see" but what it really is, the truth, even if it doesn't feel right. However that part about being an artist holds some water. But to me this is a mindless state when I draw, I enjoy it because it's a reprive from constant analysing every single thing ever, I just go with the flow and only once I am finished, I can try to retroactively analyse it, try to then guess what it might've been that I tried to express. This is honestly the best way for me to discover what I feel, most accessible bc that part of me is very very deeply buried in the unconscious mind. Not weak! I am a sensitive person actually but it just isn't really something I have access to on a conscious level. When someone asks me how I feel, I really struggle and p much just guess. I don't really use it to make decisions that much bc it is so confusing it makes me feel very conflicted, it makes making decisions more difficult and focusing on just logic: pros, cons and past experiences, my reactions to them, is more useful.
Once again this is a great video that gives a lot of information without being too long. This video has caused me to have less stock in the ISTP theory that a lot of people I've talked to have for my type. I have absolutely no idea how other people feel about me, even people I've known for years and that I live with. It always surprises me to find out how people actually feel about me, because usually I never would have expected it. I remember this one time I made a post asking everyone exactly how they felt about me, because this is something I don't know, and I feel extremely uneasy about things that I don't know, if I don't know how someone actually feels about me, then how can I know their intentions and whether or not to cut them out of my life if they have ulterior motives? I'm not completely blind to stuff like that however, I'm actually pretty perceptive to when someone is trying to pull the wool over my eyes, I notice everything going on around me, and reoccurring patterns, I don't like when people try to tell me that something I observe with my own two eyes isn't true, or when they say something but the facts don't add up. There are times though when I'll wonder if I may be jumping to conclusions too quickly and seeing zebras where there are only horses. It's not even about how people view me, how they view me is their business, I just want to know the truth, the objective truth is apparently extremely important to me, because it's what I get frustrated over the most when it's ignored or just not seen. I also like things to be precise, for example, someone will say they're 24 even though their birthday is still 3 weeks away, they're not 24, they're 23, unless you counter in the fact that people are basically 9 months old when they're born, and in some places that start you off at 1 year old, so if they were born in that place they would be 24, but that doesn't matter in this case because they weren't. This is off topic to the comment I was writing before, but it's a question about Fi vs Fe. Last night one of my roommates and I had a minor disagreement over why I shouldn't eat certain food combos, and why it matters or not if other people do it. Her argument was that no one likes combos like that and just thinking about it makes her want to barf. My argument was that what I like/eat doesn't factor into what other people like/eat. I don't understand why people care what I eat, it's not like they're eating it. That being said I understand that there are people with air borne allergies, but most of the time I don't even eat around other people so that's pretty much a non-factor. So what I'm wondering is, would this be an example of Fe since she said that no one likes food combos like that, using the feelings of a collective, and ignoring the fact that there might be people who like to eat pecans in mac & cheese, or would it be Fi since she's going by how she subjectively feels about it, and maybe her saying that no one likes food combos like that could be an example of inferior Te, or maybe the fact she couldn't fully grasp Fe is because she was working with her Ti logic, it's true, Ti and Fi are similar lmao, I guess that being said, Te and Fe are probably pretty similar too in the same way, but different. It makes sense to me, Ti and Fi are both introverted judging functions and Te and Fe are both extraverted judging functions, Ti and Fi are both more self focused, Te and Fe are both more group focused. Going back to the topic from before, this is another argument against me being a Ti-Dom. I'm much more focused on what other people are doing, or what they should be doing, and reminding them of what they need to do, rather than being focused on myself and my identity. However there are a lot of instances where I could see high Ti, and there's still a lot more to know and understand about all of this, so I'm not cutting it off the table just yet. On most tests, I usually score highest on Ti, followed by Te, and then usually Ni, which I guess makes sense, from my experience and what I know, I have extremely weak Ni when it comes to people, but pretty strong Ni when it comes to situations, but it could also be Ni fear or something. I never jump into anything, because I can foresee the negative implication of something in vivid detail like I'm on Final Destination or something. An example of this would be that I'm afraid to jump off the diving board, because I can play this whole scenario in my head where I jump off the diving board, I smack into the water, it stings, water goes up my nose and into my mouth, and I choke on it, I make it out, have to wait a bit for the stinging in my eyes to clear, and to make the situation worse, it'd probably get the attention of other people, and that would be one of the last things I'd want at that moment. It reminds me of this time I went on a water slide, and when it was over I was hyperventilating and people kept asking everyone around me if I was okay and I almost died. Not literally but yeah. Speaking of dying, the conclusion to my diving board analogy is that I'm also afraid that when I get home, the water that I inhaled from diving into the pool will cause me to dry drown hours later and I'll die. I've never jumped off a diving board before, but that's what always plays out in my head. I mentioned in a comment in another video that I probably have high Se or at least not super low Se since I'm extremely aware of stuff going on around me, but it's this certain fear that let's me know that I'm probably not an ESTP or ESFP, and also the fact that I often find the EP types exhausting to be around, I can't imagine being one. This rambling is getting out of control, so I'm going to stop this comment here before I start thinking of other things to write several paragraphs about lmao.
There is so much in this comment, thank you :) You know, in regards to that friend who said 'no one likes combos like that' it is hard to say! I know of ESTJs and ISTJs who have said similar things so I wonder if it's a Te thing. I kind of sense it is, but it's so hard to say. Fe users I've found more often say people 'shouldn't' like this or that. But I don't know, I even remember an INTP saying something very broad about 'nobody likes this' - it gets complicated I guess when we think about our unconscious functions and how we ourselves don't necessarily believe what we say sometimes (although I'm an INFP so this might be more a 'me' thing). Either way I still like to think you're an ISTP and ISTPs certainly have a way of thinking that I always value and appreciate and by being the INFP superego they inspire me a lot. I wonder too if you could be an INTP?
@@vondelpete Thanks for responding back. Do ENTJs and INTJs say similar things because it could also be an Si thing. INTP isn't off the table. I was actually considering either INTP or ESTJ as a potential type, as I believe that I have Ne, but not Dom as I don't like chaos, but not too low either, since I don't mind going outside the bounds of normality. I'm leaning more towards ESTJ since when it comes to Fi vs Fe, I see why other people should have to be responsible for the feelings of others, what they feel is their problem, not mine, unless I'm the one who made them feel that way, then my bad, it wasn't intentional. There is one thing however that makes me question these types. With INTP, I'm extremely aware of my surroundings and usually the first to react to something. I can also be pretty confrontational as I like to get things resolved rather than dwelling on it, and I heard that INTPs aren't very confrontational. With ESTJs, with their high Si, I imagine they're good at recognizing when they're hungry, thirsty, remembering directions, etc. I'm not. I can go a full+ day without eating and I won't even notice until I start getting dizzy, and I'll wonder what's wrong with me, but then I realize what's up. I also heard that STJs really like doing paperwork and stuff, which I don't like doing, I usually get someone else to do it for me. All this being said though, there's other factors involved and I could be those types just not as standard I guess you could say lmao. One pattern that has been occurring though, is that the majority of people I've talked to about this stuff have thought that I was using Ni-Se or Se-Ni, it's about half and half, the people who think I'm an SP and the people who think I'm an NJ, and no one has ever considered me to be an Si user before, which is a bit disappointing because it seems to be the most useful function other than Fe. I think whatever my dominant function is, is fairly useful as well, I'm really good at avoiding/getting out of dangerous situations, and I do feel the flight or fight response, the first thing I do is start looking around for things that can be used as weapons and exactly how. I can think of how several things can be used as a weapon. The downside to this though, is I'm visualizing this all in my head, seeing how to exact the defense tactic on the attacker, without considering the fact that I'm built like dry spaghetti and just as liable to break if I ever encountered an attacker. I'm not paranoid, that's just the first thing my mind goes to. Or maybe I am paranoid, because a lot of the times, I can see several terrible outcomes for one thing, and a lot of the time, I'll try to prevent those outcomes from happening. I'm think this might be some type of Ni, though I'm not sure if it's high Ni or low Ni. If it's something else though, I'd love to know. Do you believe that body language could give an indication to someone's type? I know some people who are into typology do.
@@nooneneedstoknowmyname I don't notice INTJs and ENTJs saying the same thing so yeah it could be more related to Fi. I suppose the Ni you're talking about, well, it's going to be a big part of an ISTP if it's in the 'third slot'. Yeah I always look at body language as a little clue for MBTI types, but it's usually just because I have noticed certain body language traits amongst certain types at times and it's only really in regards to ENFPs and INFPs. Otherwise I struggle to identify anything and there are exceptions. I think eye movement is a big one - but it's one of those areas that just varies too much, I love thinking about it. What do you think?
@@vondelpete I think there's some truth to the body language thing. I once started watching a non-skit series about 16 people of each differently personality type living in a house together, and I found it interesting how the INTJ and ISFP have really similar body language, because they share all the same functions, just in a different order. What have you learned in regards to type and eye contact? I'm terrible with eye contact.
It's a funny thing because tge two types are similar - very similar. But Fi is my demon function. Ti is your demon function, if I'm not mistaken. There is a part of each other that we simply cannot understand and that trips us both up very badly.
Honestly, if u look at the shadow side of the intp and infp’s have each other’s demon function so intp has Fi as their demon and Infps have Ti as their demon. And if u research about the demon function it is neglected and hated by their dominant function. They also like just can’t use it very well and according to another UA-camr: Cs Joseph he says that the user doesn’t rlly care about their demon as it’s something they cannot use. I think your getting mixed up by the intp and infp own thinking axis and they use thinking and feeling in a completely different way
For exemple infp care about the thinking of others so deeply it becomes an insecurity (te is in their inferior after all) they can’t use their own logic (Ti) because they only care about the thinking of others like statistics,credits,research.
And an intps own feelings don’t matter (Fi) as much as other peoples feelings as they have Fe in the inferior and Fe is all about other people emotion and values so that’s why they are prone to guilt because they are insecure about other peoples feelings and hurting them
@@melloz7571 Yes yes this!!!! I am so prone to guilt and bc of my difficulty making decisions (bc i just analyse it too much and get lost in complexities), I sometimes do things that are simply convenient for others, in fear of upsetting, hurting them or the worst thing - being rejected. But I'm trying to become stronger and focus on my Si more! Create more healthy routines, sort of, organize my emotional space as much as the thinking is organised by it, build myself reliable fallback strategies, comforting stability, it really helps out! There's also the Ni as shadow function that acts on anxiety a lot, as if something terrible is about to happen, really driving me to some catastrophic thinking sometimes if I'm unwell, too exhausted etc to combat it with logic bc it does NOT make sense but I don't even get why I get this paranoidal fear in the first place bc that Fi is so so inaccessible. It is exactly when Si helps out, giving access to memory, categorising it as X psychological phenomenon and grounding in this way, giving access to tried and true protocols when it comes to dealing with it. But this is why INTPs, esp immature ones, are unfortunately easily manipulated, exploited by fake friends etc. We do wish to form meaningful bonds, make people happy but are very clumsy about it and the realisation of something being bad for us is usually very very delayed and only gets easier as we accumulate these painful experiences, only memories there to guide us. (though befriending someone like an INFJ is very helpful! To consult them on when I feel queasy in some way and unable to identify what even is that emotion specifically, let alone what caused it but they always know what questions to ask and help me make sense of it, uncover what is really happening and how to deal with it! i am infinitely grateful!)
@@Noelciaaa I relate to everything you said as an intp as well like this constant inner fear of making people feel bad or hurting their feelings sometimes gets the best of me. I did want to mention that Ni critic the anxiety is often provoked from not knowing what you want to do because of how the future is gonna turn out for you because the function Ni is all about wants desires and your own future path we get really nervous about choosing the wrong choice or wanting something only to find out it was huge mistake in the future
In conclusion....The concept of 16 personalities is way too complicated...💀 -INTP Edit:- I was mis typed...I am actually an INFJ... which is unbelievable to me as well...
As an INTP I've never heard of Fi included with my Ti in making decisions but I do know my shadow function Fi is 8th slot how is it possible for two introverted functions working together in how I process and come to a conclusion .
I think there's room to speculate, but in some sense I think we're just using all of our eight functions, all the time, and it's just more about preference: INTPs are going to mainly be relying on their Ti but the Fi is still buried underneath. Kind of like how an ENTP might be using Ne most of the time but the Se is still clearly there when engaging in physical activity, even in a slightly weaker and stranger way.
In reality I could have flipped either way - INFP or INTP. However, from adolescence I started becoming more analytical. The older I got the more INTP I got. There's still a strong Fi component in my make up. In the Sakinorva test it is my third highest function. TI Ne. Then Fi. If you haven't done the Sakinorva test you'll find it very insightful - it measures the actual strength of the functions in your personality.
Interesting, and it’s funny to reflect on how I felt like an INTP until I reached about 14-15 years old. I’m surprised your Fi was so high up with the Sakinorva test, but it goes to show how Fi and Ti can produce similar outcomes. My Ti, from memory of doing that test, was medium to low - but much higher than my Te.
I don't want to make a big deal out of this but to me you've reached the wrong conclusion which I find typical of Fi. That I have Gi is not an indication that Fi and Ti are in any way related. Regards Ron
Sorry - meant to say that the fact that I have high Fi is not in any way an indication that Fi and Ti are in any way similar. I also need to be seen as relatively atypical though I'm sure they are many INTPs with high Fi and low Te who are a little INFP like.
I believe Ti and Fi are often well developed for INFPs and INTPs respectively because of our conscious unwillingness to utilize our 4th extroverted judging function Te of Fe respectively. As time passes Fi and Ti love engaging with Fe and Te of course the first step in improving our 5th function is by recognizing our short comings with it. In this engagement we necessarily have to unconsciously develop our 8th function of Ti or Fi to be remarkably sound and functional. This 8th function development then helps us avoid our 4th as long as possible without facing negative consequences. I believe that the consequence of having these functions so low in our function stack is a greater difficulty for external circumstances to change our 8th functions judgements (aka we're stubborn with it) whereas our 1st function is much more nimble and easily attuned to our lived experiences. However once you realize this stubbornness you can question and analyze you behaviors in the Fe or Te landscape to slowly improve your Ti or Fi reasoning or become more secure in your Ti or Fi reasoning to the point where one can now sort of communicate their reasoning.
I also had this theory but I think it's because we take responsibility for all our introverted functions (and extroverts take responsibility for all extroverted functions). However, using Te as an INFP feels more empowering than using Ti because Ti always feels threatening to my Fi. They occur as doubts against my belief/ value system. Yet I am much more aware of it than my Se so Se turns out to be my least developed function because I just don't care about it all and have no intention to improve on it. However, with Ti I feel as if I have to domesticate it to be on my side so that I can feel safe with my Fi. So Ti becomes very useful when I have to criticize other views, especially views that stand against my Fi values, sort of like projecting onto others the bullets that my Ti has directed against my Fi.
@@thesilenttreatment6837 I'm always going back and forth on this - I know that, with Se as my blindspot, it's nothing I ever care to develop, whereas I also value Ti in order to help assist my Fi. I think that makes sense. Then again I clearly don't value Ti for its own sake, and much more value Te, and the idea of 'solutions' and trying to learn, complete tasks, but that's typical of any INFP.
Yeah, I can definitely see that. Then again I think Fi is a coping mechanism for me too haha...not so much connecting and more...disconnecting from others?
I definitely want this too. I find it funny in daily life when I see people of the same type congregate together even though they assumedly don’t know about MBTI or that they’re all the same types 😂
I am an ISTP and I do agree that Ti and Fi are somehow related in the way they work but with obvious differences in what they work with. An analogy I just came up with would be a plant and a machine or factory. Both use physical and chemical processes to convert raw materials and energy into products. They are similar in concept but obviously not quite the same. In one point however I have to disagree. For me Ti isn't mysterious at all - apart from the obvious fact that we still don't know much about how the brain and mind actually work - because it's so logical in nature. Almost every thought it produces I can trace back to where it came from. I can also observe my mind while it is thinking about something and even think about that and so on until it gets several levels deep and my brain starts to melt. 😉 Obviously I don't do such things all the time because just like with a computer running monitoring and debugging tools in the background uses up valuable resources and slows down the actual program. The mysterious part of my mind is Ni. Sometimes it comes up with ideas or insights seemingly out of nowhere and I don't know how accurate they are and if I can trust them without putting them through the Ti first.
That's a good analogy I think, they're both similar processes but coming from a very different angle. Other comments have also said that Ti doesn't come across to Ti users as mysterious - which is really interesting to me, as my Hero Fi feels very mysterious. But then, that's naturally going to be the nature of a 'feeling' function. I've been trying to explore how Ni is felt by ISTP and ISFPs lately and observe how it manifests in those types as a child function so it's great to hear your experiences, thank you :)
Yeah for the most part - I get on very well with Ti hero types and have lifelong friendships. But I’ve never been able to connect romantically with Ti types at all - lots of respect, friendship, humour, warmth, but…not romance.
@@treblestrings6263 I lie in this last statement: I've been romantically connected to many Ti types, but it's mainly been INFJs and ENFJs. It's TPs in particular I often find something missing and I suppose it's just not sensing the Fi, which maybe I relate more strongly to as an INFP. Wouldn't be surprised if I just haven't had enough experience though.
INTP will see INFP as crazy and irrational and INFP may accuse INTP of being just a horrible person. INTP won't be able to convince INFP of most things. INFP will hit INTP where it hurts most - in his/her Inferior Fe function. It's a hard road this one.
I think Ti and Fi are different. I really do. From a Ti perspective there's very little quite as frustrating as trying to deal with someone who's primary function is Fi. No matter how rationally we try to explain something it hits a brick wall.
Your concept of the cognitive functions is clearly based on or at least heavily influecened by MBTI definitions of the functions. These are not accurate, please stop using these definitions. The functions are as such: -Fi: Personal *MORAL* sense. Sympathy. What I PERSONALY feel is a good or Bad thing. -Fe: *ETHICAL* awareness. Empathy. What OTHERS FEEL is a good or bad thing. -Ti: *LOGICAL* awareness. Deductive Reasoning. Assuming the information I already have is true, then what else can I absolutely prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, to ALSO be true, so long as my starting information is correct? Deductive Reasoning uses PROOF to PROVE something is true, by eliminating all other possible options. -Te: *RATIONALE* awareness. Inductive Reasoning. What is MOST LIKELY the truth, what do OTHERS THINK is the truth. What do STATISTICS show is most likely true. What does my RESEARCH show is most Likely true. Inductive reasoning, uses EVIDENCE to SUPPORT that something might be true, simply because everything seems to be pointing in the direction of it being true. Every Fi user, is also a Te user (the 2 functions are attached to one another), so all Moral individuals, are also, highly rational, and vice versa. Every Ti user, is also a Fe user (the 2 functions are again linked), so all Logical individuals, are also highly Ethical, and vice versa. You have likely mistakened high Te users for high Ti users, (at least a lot of people seem to do this fron what I've seen) in which case, of course they are using Fi in their Rational reasoning. And of course Fi users are using rationale in their moral decision making. As for the perception functions: -Ni: Desire, Ambition, wants, goals! Focus. Ni is about deciding, 'what I want for MY FUTURE.' It looks at what options are available to it, and chooses only what it considers the ABSOLUTE BEST options for itself. This makes it very focused, and so Ni users can easily stay focus on their own goals for a very long time. Ni is about deciding your own fate/future -Ne: Metaphysical awareness. What are ALL the possible options available? What do OTHERS want for their future? What do WE want for OUR collective future? Ne looks at what others want with their Ni and is also aware of all the possibilities what what COULD happend and what options others COULD choose. Thise makes them insainly good at predicting the future, -Si: Duty. Awareness of NEEDS. What makes ME comfortable, what is a good experience for me? Attention span. Mental Endurance/Strength Si users feel a sense of duty for the things they need to do! They also value having good experiences so safety and comfort are very important to them! They have a great attention span, because they look to take in everything they are experiencing at any given moment on time. Because they pay so much attention to the own experiences, they have a good long term memory. -Se: physical and mechanical awareness. Preformance. Reaction time. What OTHER PEOPLE are doing. What OTHER PEOPLE'S experiences, are like. Have totemic memory. (They associate their memories with certain objects/situations, so they dont have to remember it long term themselves. They can instead be reminded of their memories when relevant.) Se users are constantly considering how others around them are experiencing life, and especially how others are experiencing THEMSELVES (the se user). They want to look good, and capable, and want to gives others a good experience, so they put in the effort to look good, sound good and preform well! Because they are constantly looking for feedback from others, (eg facial expressions, body language, etc) as to how they are being experienced by others, they are very aware of everything happening right in that given moment. This gives them a good short term memory, as well as a fast reaction time. Again, Se users are also Ni users. Ambitious, goal oriented individuals, who are motivated by their desires, often care about looking and performing well in front of others, as well. Ne users are also Si users. Mentally strong, duty motivated people, who prioritise their needs before their wants, with good long term memory, are usually the ones that are good at prediction the future. (Makes sense right? The more experienced you are, the better your predictions.) These are the definitions of the functions according to CS Joseph's Type Grid system. Please use them instead of your current definitions as they are more consistant and accurate.
As an ISTP I've come to a similar conclusion. Personally, I believe Ti (in an ISTP at least) is about principles and congruence of people and things as they pertain to the concrete world. So, this means our Fi has to be explainable somehow. We can't just like or believe something without explanation. It has to 'make sense' in reality.
For example, I can't just find a woman attractive - I have to track the exact reasons of why I do, often to the point I am no longer interested. Most times I can't just let Fi be Fi. I need it to be explainable otherwise I'll feel dumb and I think people will think I'm an idiot because I can't explain what I personally believe in.
Thanks for the comment! That's a really cool thing to hear. I don't know why but it's always comforting to hear thoughts from that Ti point of view, I find people with Ti hero often help me rationalise my Fi and helps give me confidence.
@@vondelpete Glad I could help!😀
As an INFP, weirdly enough (I don't know if other INFPs may relate) I tend to do something similar. I guess I do fear being criticized quite a lot because of what I have already faced, to the point where I now focus on my T functions a lot more recently. The part where my Ti runs in the background and mends all the cracks in my Fi seems to be on overdrive and it no longer feels like an unconscious process. Heck, now a part of me even seems to be pretty good at spotting loopholes and fallacies, and I guess I no longer feel like I'm no longer as forgiving as I used to be. In a way, I have embraced my demon function (and even my inferior function Te to an extent), and now I am engulfed in it.
That being said, I still can't express my process well, especially out of the blue (unless I am defensive, in which case what comes out would at best be a convoluted mess that barely resembles my original reasoning), and despite me sharing a lot in common with my INTP bestie, I don't feel like I could even come close to his level of Ti usage.
(P.S. I am not a native English speaker, and I would like to apologize in advance for any grammatical errors made in this reply)
I think with Ti every feeling is almost instantly thrown into ratio where the analog signal so to say is transformed into a digital code that can be used to calculate . Add while you can reason with feelings to create distance, I've come to the realization lately that I think Ti supresses the Fi feelings because feleings are meant to be experienced and felt and not thought about. So I au curious how many Ti doms actually have supressed emotions that somehow are dormant in themselves and never really get the chance to get out spontanious. Where FI doms often seem to cry, it's sometimes seen as weak or whatever but they really digest the emotional content of their feelings, while we do not tend to do that. I think i've cried less than 5 times the last 20 years, despite having a relatively difficult live with lots of objective struggles (health issues for exmaple). I wish I could cry more often cause i think it would help me acccept things deep down. Also after drying people often seem very calm. So it seems quite functional in tat sense too.
However, back to the topic..i think Ti and Fi are just like cities in the same region. They're in the same region, but not exactly in the same place. Their basis works the same but is somewhat different. I also believe most people are not 100% ti or 100% Fi ..I think a lot are somewhat in between that. However, it does not really have a name, but just like colors it would make far more sense why endless similar types are still quite different people. The most 100% intp might be very robotic whereas the INTP that is abit closer to INFP is not..
I'm an intp, lots of my close friends and family have told me I'm good at reading people, I'm really empathetic but I can also be extremely cold hearted. Also I'm really really funny
INTPs have my vote for the funniest type, that’s for sure.
I wanted to write a comment, but my Fi and Ti collectively decided it was illogical and didn't feel right
I have a friend who is INTP and I'm an INFP. I love personality stuff.
And what I've observed is that he loves getting deeper into subjects to try to understand the world to get to the truth. Why do things work? Ti is very much try to break things down into smaller and smaller chunks to try to get to the fundamentals of why the truth is the truth.
Fi is very similar. But in my perception, instead of focusing on objective facts, it focuses on subjective truths. I like to break down morals into fine lined definitions of "why do I work"? And then live a life based on those universal truths you've experienced or contemplated.
Maybe this is me, but I love clearly defined life quotes that inspire and motivate. Because something in them resonates in a way of how to life a better life.
Oh I love how you described my exact thoughts, that’s how I interact with my Ti hero friends. They break things down systematically - and I really respect and enjoy that - and then my subjective truths and ideas about value play off nicely in discussions with them and they seem to respect my conclusions too…complimentary rather than at odds.
So I often see Ti in conflict with Fe and Te, and Fi in conflict with Fe and Te as well 🤣
On rare occasions I’ve seen Fi and Ti clash…very rarely. And I guess both introverts are sensitive to it and avoid it anyway.
I have a pretty high Te thanks to my restaurant work, and I often find Ti to clash with Te more. Sometimes they both can get to the same conclusion, but Ti is inward logical thinking and Te tries to actively organize environment.
Ti is better at building systems
Te is better at putting systems into practice
Thats kind of where they clash. Ti can build a perfect logical system, but Te will always ask, "ok, lets see if it will work then." Which Ti's don't like.
I haven't experienced much Fe to Fi conflict. Fe allows an individuals to adapt to their surroundings easier. So Fi is thinking, "This is me This is how I think." And Fe outwardly is saying, "yep. thats you."
Intps have low Fe, so often it's not developed. But high developed intps, they can be anyone.
I think Fi is more philosophical, it analyses concepts in order to relate to the self values. So more questioning about what's the point of life, how do this relates to me, etc. While Ti would be more to the hard sciences.
I really appreciate your openness to all of this, because I constantly think that these introverted functions are sometimes difficult to differentiate in their dynamic happenings. I think I use introverted think a good bit though it is not in my function stack.
This was so obvious to me even since the day that I started getting familiar with cognitive functions, yet when you look at all the MBTI theories they're like 'nope, you do not have even a bit of Fi, not even a little'. That just never made sense to me, and so I searched more.
And so apparently it turns out that while yes there is a very likely connection between T & F, N & S functions, according to socionics (as per what I've heard from type youtubers on here) it seems to be that at least half of all people are able to develop their 8th function to be up to as strong as their 2nd function as they mature, and this happens with all types. It's been called a 'role function' apparently, a function that you come to value for situations that you might need them, but ultimately loses out to your preferred dominant functions.
I don't think this works for all positions though. It's interesting that the only examples that you gave were pertaining to the dominant functions of each type.
To me for example, as much as I like ENFPs (Ti blindspot), they remain frustratingly blind to any kind of Ti based 'fairness' principles and hence come off as a bit self centered and even entitled at their worst, whereas I find that INFPs on the other hand, even though love viewing the world through their preferred first person view, are able to step back and view themselves from a top down Ti like perspective as well and figure out how their actions might affect their surroundings.
I'm also mindful of keeping some of my ENTP friends away from my Fi dom friends lest they run a tank over their Fi as they sometimes do, whereas myself as a Ti dom seem to connect to their Fi with no real problems. I still do think that Fi & Ti are connected in an inexplicable way though, I'm still trying to figure that out.
Sorry if this was too long, here's a couple of videos explaining it better than I can, cheers :)
ua-cam.com/video/OIHWe_a0AoE/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/oybKUDzrTA8/v-deo.html
Thanks for that link and the comment, I think I relate and agree with everything you said.
I think I should have really discussed that idea in the video, it's what sparked me off actually: how INTPs and INFPs seem to have a wonderful back and forth between Fi and Ti, whereas ENTPs and INFPs, as you said, that Fi really doesn't flow well between the two types. I feel very relaxed around ENTPs, probably because I find Ti and Ne appealing - but I do find that they often seem confused and distressed by my Fi hero, which can lead to a lot of misunderstandings. I guess the Ti perspectives with ENTPs can also irritate me, but I think like you said, it's more the 'running a tank over Fi' that causes me issues.
I should probably confess I have an ENTP mother haha...
I'm an entp with an infp family member. I can definitely relate to being a steamroller, I'm only just realising that I have that effect
@@Dan-to9hl it can be a very good thing honestly
It's because as an introvert, you take responsibility for all your introverted functions, so even if your Fi is supposed to be your weakest function, you are not blind to it because you take responsibility for it, hence you can understand why some people have values. ENTPs on the other hand are literally detached from any kind of value system so they don't seem to get why others have it. However, they have a functional Fe to be able to fake affection, so they aren't as cold as INTPs. Well-developed Fe in ENTPs can result to ESFJ-like behaviour when need to be.
@@thesilenttreatment6837 Ah, I couldn't agree more - that's exactly the way I see so many ENTPs XD in a similar way to how INFPs can result in very ISTJ behaviour, I suppose, or ENFPs can even seem like ESTJs at times.
Vondelpete please continue!
I haven't seen you in my feed for weeks so I had to come hunt you down in my follow list to see if you'd released any new material. You had not :(
If you're out there chasing some other butterfly, good on you! Such is INFP life.
Personally I'd like to see more of you. You make me chuckle!
You know I think I needed this little bit of encouragement, I'm going to make a new video thanks to you :) Thanks so much for the comment!
Finally a video that highlights the similarity between Ti and Fi, thank you! 🙏
Recently I've come to understand that each person's cognitive stack is composed of the functions one uses *instinctively* (as opposed to the functions outside of the stack, which might be reflected in one's learned behaviors but are technically not being used instinctively), but that doesn't really help me much to figure out which are my preferences, since "what makes sense" and "what is right" often coincide for me (and sometimes, due to factors like anxiety, I end up *not* doing what both makes sense and is right, lol). Even in topics that are seen mainly as a matter of empathy/sympathy, I can still logically think about them and arrive to the same conclusion as if I relied in my values alone. It's really a matter of looking at *all* the relevant premises and not falling for false premises (something which some self-claimed "logical/rational" people often neglect to do 🙃), and the valid (and true) conclusions will likely match any decent value system. Now, being imperfect by nature, humans won't be able to stick to this 100% of the time, regardless of whether their underlying preference is logic-based or value-based, so yeah. It's complicated 😂
Anyways, due to this, it took me the longest time to figure out whether I was an INFP or INTP (even with the help of an INTP friend who's very knowledgeable in MBTI). I guess being an INFP with 5w6 as the Enneagram might cut it, but it's still not 100% obvious for me whether I'm preferentially using Fi or Ti in most situations 😅 So I relate quite a bit to some of the points in your video, in that the underlying preference can be quite a mysterious process.
I love this comment, I think you’ve really put your finger on something here that I wasn’t able to understand at first - I guess it’s all about integrating all the parts of our mind, which hopefully we do automatically - occasionally I’ve also come across the self-proclaimed ‘rational/logical’ people neglecting to properly absorb as many premises as possible. I think this comes from over-confidence in rationality. I think Fi users can also fall prey to being overconfident in their values before critically assessing them, but in these modern times - where everything is supposed to have a scientific explanation - I think Fi users are forced from a young age to be more rational and logical, or at least feel guilty if they’re not at least trying. But then again I’ve noticed many Ti users do the same thing in reverse, using moral and value-based judgements to balance out their logical analysis. But as usual I’m speculating :) thanks so much for the insightful comment!
@@vondelpete Thank you!
I think the issue of neglecting some premisses (aside from the lack of access to them, ofc) might have more to do with confirmation bias, which is something anyone can be vulnerable to, regardless of being "feelers" or "thinkers". I think that confirmation bias is just more expected to come from "feelers", but it happens a lot with "thinkers" too (and some of them will just be too stubborn to acknowledge that because they're so ✨rational ✨, haha). So, in a way, people's personal feelings will always get in the way a little, regardless of whether one is more focused on their personal values or on the logical process.
But back to the original point: I think, while for some people it might be obvious that they're preferring the logical process or a moral/values code, for others (like me), as you said, it's a kind of automatic integration. It's rare that my logical process and my values colide; it's much more likely that my anxiety will colide with both of them 🤣 In that sense, the default preference can be difficult to assess, which might lead to a certain similarity between Ti and Fi users (in addition to the explicit efforts that you mentioned).
This is very accurate, Fi and Ti converge into one. A decent value base(Fi) can be explained logically. Irrational values(Fi) don't adhere to logic(Ti).
@@kenmusyoka I wouldn't say that they always coincide since logic could also be used to explain a not so great value base, but I definitely agree that a good value base should, for the most part, adhere to a correct logic, since it should rely on true premises and arrive to true conclusions that are also valid regarding the premises.
@@emptyhappysong What's an example of a not so decent value base that can be explained using logic.
2:33 the saying is "iron out the creases", like on a shirt. great video btw.
Oh yes hahah you’re right. Thanks for saying that too :)
If you the Sakinorva test you see how your functions sit in your personality make up. I am an INTP but that is borderline on the T/F axis. Not too borderline - I always test INTP with about 55-45 percent T over F. The Sakinorva test shoes my highest function is Ti (obviously). But it also shows my Fi is very high. On the bottom of the scale is shows my Fe is not high, but my Te and Se are even lower. In other words, I register INTP because combined my Ti and Te are higher than my Fi and Fe. So I'm a thinker, showing that preference However, the real pattern is strong preference for introverted functions (Ti, Fi and Si) over extroverted functions (Te, Fe and Se). The exception is Ne over Ni. However both Ne and Ni are very high. The fact is we have all the functions - INTPs like me can also have very high Fi - it's my 3rd highest function. Even so, it is not in my primary function stack. That doesn't mean I am not using Fi - it just means as Fi and Ti are binary, my preference has ended up being Ti. We all use all the functions.
I did it and it returned INFP 1st and INTP 3rd. Thanks, I used to test intp in other mbti tests but recently I started to ask whether I was an Infp after understanding better what Fi is.
I think the difference between logical Ti or Te decisions and emotional Fi or Fe based decisions has to do with a tradeoff between how complicated/fine the decision is, and how explainable/reproducible it is. Logic is actually quite a coarse mechanism, and can only be done very simply (unless you outsource to a computer or something). It's sacrificing how delicate and specific intuitive emotion based decisions can be so that it can be explained either to oneself or to others.
I mean, the only way you can say something is logical to begin with is if you can detail each step in the process in a way that makes sense. Like writing a proof.
So, in order to better balance logic and emotion, one has to recognize when it's more important to make sure every part of a decision is understood and makes sense, vs when it's more important to make a decision with your mind's full complicated capacity, whether you understand it or not.
This is a great way of looking at it, thank you! This is something that is very easy to miss, how context and situation is so important.
Ti is only logical to you but not in the eyes of others. I’ve been told many times that I’m a bit illogical/my logic is weird/hard to understand etc. Ti focuses on what makes sense to you, gathering pieces of knowledge, becoming smarter by every fragment of new info, exploration, research. However, I hate explaining my ideas, sometimes I cannot even back my ideas with facts and proper explanation, it just makes sense to me for some reason. Implementing knowledge and practical usage are weak spots of both INFP and INTP, so they appear kinda similar. I’m still cannot tell precisely
whether I’m INTP or INFP. For example, I’m also sensitive to criticism, especially when someone criticizes or judges my knowledge and abilities, that can hurt a lot. I like to say I don’t care about others’ opinions, yet the truth is that I kinda do and those affect me. I like making people talking about themselves so that I don’t have to talk about myself. I don’t like being known haha.
I think that what you described sounds exactly like INTP actually. I personally have the same problem and still am not sure whether I‘m INTP or INFP. Ne aux and Si tertiary along with Se polr definitely make sense for me, so I can’t be anything else than an INxP. But what you described there with the part that you actually do get affected by other people‘s opinions, that definitely sounds more like INTP than INFP due to inferior Fe, while INFP having Fi as their dominant function, they usually are much more focused on letting their authenticity shine on the outside without caring about other people‘s opinions on them AS LONG AS they are being themselves and just living life as who they are. While INTP on the other hand struggle with inferior Fe and therefore tend to be very socially awkward and very sensitive as well. INFP will be much more focused on expressing their differences and stand out, while INTP with inferior Fe rather feel uncomfortable when standing out too much, therefore they‘ll rather try to remain indifferent (this would then be them staying in their comfort zone, because INTP is worried that people would find them weird, if they stand out like that). Personally I believe it’s wrong to think that inferior Fe means „no empathy“ and „no emotions“ or „insensitive“, because that doesn’t even make sense. We humans are so complex and BOTH logic and emotions are a part of us which IS what makes each and every one of us so complex and individual. Fi and Te can‘t work without each other, as well as Ti and Fe. They all work together hand in hand. And it’s also wrong to see it this way that F literally only means emotional and T only means logical. I‘d rather say that F just stand for values, while T stands for reasons. So for Ti dom and Fe inferior I‘d say that it’s not about „I‘m a robot who only thinks logical and has no feelings and also doesn’t care about feelings“, instead I‘d say that it’s about the struggle to understand social values/norms(Fe) and acting according to those Fe rules, while your Ti dom is trying to make sense out of everything and finding „personal reasons“ (Ti) for why you‘d agree with some of those Fe values. Therefore there will be a lot of conflict between what people expect from you(Fe) and what you yourself believe makes sense to you(Ti) and since you rather prefer to listen to your Ti it can make you have alot of trouble socially and how people view you (for example imagine a Ti dom girl and everyone expects her to dress nicely and put on some make-up, but she’s not gonna do it, because it doesn’t make sense to her to do all that, therefore alot of people will criticize her for not being „girly“ enough and for not fitting into society standards(Fe)). So, as a Ti dom you sometimes have trouble to act according to what is expected of you, since sometimes some of those things just don’t make sense to you, so why would you even do that, right? BUT, because IxTP‘s still have Fe and it’s not avoidable(because all functions are still a part of you), IxTP‘s do still care about what other people think of them, therefore it can lead to IxTP‘s feeling insecure and this is also what makes them so socially awkward, because they are aware of how they have trouble with Fe and how they struggle to fit into the world like that, because when smth just doesn’t make sense to their Ti, they just don’t do it, which then causes other people criticizing them for their decisions. So I really think that the dominant and inferior function represent a big conflict that is happening inside of you (INTP is Ti-Fe conflict and INFP is Fi-Te conflict) and NOT Ti-dom is incapable of feeling/empathy while Fi-dom is incapable of logical thinking. Nonsense. It’s literally impossible to be a human without logic or without feeling. That’s literally what makes us humans so different from any other living being and that is our high intelligence and complex emotions with abstract logic. I myself am INCREDIBLY empathic and I usually always considered myself an emotional and sensitive person. When I did the 16p test back in the days I first got INFP all the time and later on got ENFP(and since I was still thinking in the letter typing way I thought „ohh, I‘m more extroverted now?“ xD) and I didn’t question xNFP, because I thought „yeah, I‘m an emotional mess…yeah“. Untill my friends and I learned about cognitive functions and we actually thought that Fi literally does not exist in me, so I can’t be an xNFP and I first thought that I have Fe and Te (I didn’t know yet that they have to be opposites xD), but my friends were like „NOOO TI, YOU ARE SUCH A TI USER“, and I was so confused, because I literally didn’t see that and I thought like „what? That’s not me…..or am I?“ and my friends were just like „YES YES, LITERALLY“. So our first conclusion for me actually was ENTP, because we definitely didn’t doubt Ne for me xD but after getting deeper into mbti and cognitive functions, I came to notice that despite how strong my Ne is, my Si can‘t be inferior. That’s why I am now 100% sure that I‘m an INxP (my extreme lack of Se is also incredibly obvious in me istg). Now, although it makes sense that I‘m Fe>Fi and Ti>Te and since I‘m an INxP, the only possible type for me is INTP then. But I‘m still not sure, because of how INTP‘s are seen and described and also because I totally don’t fit into all of those INTP stereotypes and stuff. Also whenever I see those other edgy INTP‘s online who really consider themselves „emotionless“ and „apathic“, it really makes me question everything again, because I‘m not like that…I am very VERY emapathic and compassionate and I do have emotions. But if I go after all of the things I explained in this comment myself, then I do see myself as INTP. I‘m just very confused honestly, it’s EITHER I‘m right and I AM the actual INTP, while the other‘s are just some edgy „wannabe“ INTP‘s who are NT supremacists and like to feel themselves and act all cold and rude like the stereotypes (literally just so childish, toxic and immature…ridiculous) OR I am mistaken and they are all the right INTP‘s and I have to reconsider my type again. I‘m actually interested in what you have to say now. Thanks for reading, if you actually read everything :“)
"I like to say I don't care about others' opinions, yet the truth is that I kinda do and those affect me." I really relate to that. I keep telling people that I couldn't care less about what people think about me. That I honestly don't care and that I am confident in my abilities. But the truth is, that's just how I wish to be, not how I am in the present moment.
@@hel.x3648 This was worded perfectly. I'm pretty sure that I am an INTP, based on the cognitive functions, but I keep questioning if I really am an INTP since many INTP's online, as you said claim they are they are cold and emotionless when that would ACTUALLY mean they are psychopaths. Feelings and logic are very much part of what a human is. One thing cannot exist without the other. We use ALL of the functions all the time, even our shadow functions. It's just that some are more prominent than the others and are used in a different way. Of course inferior fe can result in having trouble expressing emotions in emotional moments, which can come of as cold/apathetic, but for me personally, that's only when I'm not that close to that person. If one of my best friends are emotional I will try to give them comfort by really listening and help them get through that emotional time, even though I am awkward with it and sometimes don't really know what to do, it still distresses me to see them feel that way and I will at least try to make them feel better. Those previously mentioned INTP's are most likely mistyped and want to be "edgy" by being an NT type for some reason that probably has to do with villains in movies, books etc. that are mistyped as NT's, which has become so normalized, like wtf it's literally just a categorization of how people think and react to experiences, and as a tool for self-improvement. And it's not helping that the mbti meme culture has an NT bias, which also is heavily stereotyped. Unfortunately, this results in people like us, who take the time to research their functions, being unsure of whether our conclusion is correct.
Also OMG ive been waiting for someone to compare the functions in this manner. You’ve said all the thoughts I’ve been having and developing✨pls make more
Thanks so much! As usual I’ve changed my mind a bit since this video but I’m glad, and hope to make more soon :)
To me personally my Ti processes are extremely transparent, supported by Si and the large amounts of data Ne gathers, soaks up. The mysterious function is more like my Fe when I sometimes "feel" something is off about the atmosphere between ppl, that something is up, someone is upset but I don't understand how I know that or the details of it. Then I consciously use Ti and Ne to try to deduce that. My Fi is very poor (obviously, being the last shadow function...), I struggle to know how I feel and try to just analyse everything that led up to this moment, compare with prev experiences or they way other ppl similar to me tend to react (through engaging Fe). I know who I am, but not what I feel about new things, if that makes sense. It takes a long time of conscious processing and taking apart everything to figure it out and trying very very hard to do so without bias so that I don't "see what I wish to see" but what it really is, the truth, even if it doesn't feel right.
However that part about being an artist holds some water. But to me this is a mindless state when I draw, I enjoy it because it's a reprive from constant analysing every single thing ever, I just go with the flow and only once I am finished, I can try to retroactively analyse it, try to then guess what it might've been that I tried to express. This is honestly the best way for me to discover what I feel, most accessible bc that part of me is very very deeply buried in the unconscious mind. Not weak! I am a sensitive person actually but it just isn't really something I have access to on a conscious level. When someone asks me how I feel, I really struggle and p much just guess. I don't really use it to make decisions that much bc it is so confusing it makes me feel very conflicted, it makes making decisions more difficult and focusing on just logic: pros, cons and past experiences, my reactions to them, is more useful.
Once again this is a great video that gives a lot of information without being too long. This video has caused me to have less stock in the ISTP theory that a lot of people I've talked to have for my type. I have absolutely no idea how other people feel about me, even people I've known for years and that I live with. It always surprises me to find out how people actually feel about me, because usually I never would have expected it. I remember this one time I made a post asking everyone exactly how they felt about me, because this is something I don't know, and I feel extremely uneasy about things that I don't know, if I don't know how someone actually feels about me, then how can I know their intentions and whether or not to cut them out of my life if they have ulterior motives?
I'm not completely blind to stuff like that however, I'm actually pretty perceptive to when someone is trying to pull the wool over my eyes, I notice everything going on around me, and reoccurring patterns, I don't like when people try to tell me that something I observe with my own two eyes isn't true, or when they say something but the facts don't add up.
There are times though when I'll wonder if I may be jumping to conclusions too quickly and seeing zebras where there are only horses.
It's not even about how people view me, how they view me is their business, I just want to know the truth, the objective truth is apparently extremely important to me, because it's what I get frustrated over the most when it's ignored or just not seen. I also like things to be precise, for example, someone will say they're 24 even though their birthday is still 3 weeks away, they're not 24, they're 23, unless you counter in the fact that people are basically 9 months old when they're born, and in some places that start you off at 1 year old, so if they were born in that place they would be 24, but that doesn't matter in this case because they weren't.
This is off topic to the comment I was writing before, but it's a question about Fi vs Fe.
Last night one of my roommates and I had a minor disagreement over why I shouldn't eat certain food combos, and why it matters or not if other people do it.
Her argument was that no one likes combos like that and just thinking about it makes her want to barf.
My argument was that what I like/eat doesn't factor into what other people like/eat. I don't understand why people care what I eat, it's not like they're eating it. That being said I understand that there are people with air borne allergies, but most of the time I don't even eat around other people so that's pretty much a non-factor.
So what I'm wondering is, would this be an example of Fe since she said that no one likes food combos like that, using the feelings of a collective, and ignoring the fact that there might be people who like to eat pecans in mac & cheese, or would it be Fi since she's going by how she subjectively feels about it, and maybe her saying that no one likes food combos like that could be an example of inferior Te, or maybe the fact she couldn't fully grasp Fe is because she was working with her Ti logic, it's true, Ti and Fi are similar lmao, I guess that being said, Te and Fe are probably pretty similar too in the same way, but different. It makes sense to me, Ti and Fi are both introverted judging functions and Te and Fe are both extraverted judging functions, Ti and Fi are both more self focused, Te and Fe are both more group focused.
Going back to the topic from before, this is another argument against me being a Ti-Dom. I'm much more focused on what other people are doing, or what they should be doing, and reminding them of what they need to do, rather than being focused on myself and my identity. However there are a lot of instances where I could see high Ti, and there's still a lot more to know and understand about all of this, so I'm not cutting it off the table just yet.
On most tests, I usually score highest on Ti, followed by Te, and then usually Ni, which I guess makes sense, from my experience and what I know, I have extremely weak Ni when it comes to people, but pretty strong Ni when it comes to situations, but it could also be Ni fear or something. I never jump into anything, because I can foresee the negative implication of something in vivid detail like I'm on Final Destination or something. An example of this would be that I'm afraid to jump off the diving board, because I can play this whole scenario in my head where I jump off the diving board, I smack into the water, it stings, water goes up my nose and into my mouth, and I choke on it, I make it out, have to wait a bit for the stinging in my eyes to clear, and to make the situation worse, it'd probably get the attention of other people, and that would be one of the last things I'd want at that moment. It reminds me of this time I went on a water slide, and when it was over I was hyperventilating and people kept asking everyone around me if I was okay and I almost died. Not literally but yeah. Speaking of dying, the conclusion to my diving board analogy is that I'm also afraid that when I get home, the water that I inhaled from diving into the pool will cause me to dry drown hours later and I'll die. I've never jumped off a diving board before, but that's what always plays out in my head.
I mentioned in a comment in another video that I probably have high Se or at least not super low Se since I'm extremely aware of stuff going on around me, but it's this certain fear that let's me know that I'm probably not an ESTP or ESFP, and also the fact that I often find the EP types exhausting to be around, I can't imagine being one.
This rambling is getting out of control, so I'm going to stop this comment here before I start thinking of other things to write several paragraphs about lmao.
There is so much in this comment, thank you :) You know, in regards to that friend who said 'no one likes combos like that' it is hard to say! I know of ESTJs and ISTJs who have said similar things so I wonder if it's a Te thing. I kind of sense it is, but it's so hard to say. Fe users I've found more often say people 'shouldn't' like this or that. But I don't know, I even remember an INTP saying something very broad about 'nobody likes this' - it gets complicated I guess when we think about our unconscious functions and how we ourselves don't necessarily believe what we say sometimes (although I'm an INFP so this might be more a 'me' thing). Either way I still like to think you're an ISTP and ISTPs certainly have a way of thinking that I always value and appreciate and by being the INFP superego they inspire me a lot. I wonder too if you could be an INTP?
@@vondelpete Thanks for responding back. Do ENTJs and INTJs say similar things because it could also be an Si thing. INTP isn't off the table. I was actually considering either INTP or ESTJ as a potential type, as I believe that I have Ne, but not Dom as I don't like chaos, but not too low either, since I don't mind going outside the bounds of normality. I'm leaning more towards ESTJ since when it comes to Fi vs Fe, I see why other people should have to be responsible for the feelings of others, what they feel is their problem, not mine, unless I'm the one who made them feel that way, then my bad, it wasn't intentional. There is one thing however that makes me question these types. With INTP, I'm extremely aware of my surroundings and usually the first to react to something. I can also be pretty confrontational as I like to get things resolved rather than dwelling on it, and I heard that INTPs aren't very confrontational.
With ESTJs, with their high Si, I imagine they're good at recognizing when they're hungry, thirsty, remembering directions, etc. I'm not. I can go a full+ day without eating and I won't even notice until I start getting dizzy, and I'll wonder what's wrong with me, but then I realize what's up.
I also heard that STJs really like doing paperwork and stuff, which I don't like doing, I usually get someone else to do it for me.
All this being said though, there's other factors involved and I could be those types just not as standard I guess you could say lmao.
One pattern that has been occurring though, is that the majority of people I've talked to about this stuff have thought that I was using Ni-Se or Se-Ni, it's about half and half, the people who think I'm an SP and the people who think I'm an NJ, and no one has ever considered me to be an Si user before, which is a bit disappointing because it seems to be the most useful function other than Fe.
I think whatever my dominant function is, is fairly useful as well, I'm really good at avoiding/getting out of dangerous situations, and I do feel the flight or fight response, the first thing I do is start looking around for things that can be used as weapons and exactly how. I can think of how several things can be used as a weapon. The downside to this though, is I'm visualizing this all in my head, seeing how to exact the defense tactic on the attacker, without considering the fact that I'm built like dry spaghetti and just as liable to break if I ever encountered an attacker. I'm not paranoid, that's just the first thing my mind goes to. Or maybe I am paranoid, because a lot of the times, I can see several terrible outcomes for one thing, and a lot of the time, I'll try to prevent those outcomes from happening. I'm think this might be some type of Ni, though I'm not sure if it's high Ni or low Ni. If it's something else though, I'd love to know.
Do you believe that body language could give an indication to someone's type? I know some people who are into typology do.
@@nooneneedstoknowmyname I don't notice INTJs and ENTJs saying the same thing so yeah it could be more related to Fi. I suppose the Ni you're talking about, well, it's going to be a big part of an ISTP if it's in the 'third slot'.
Yeah I always look at body language as a little clue for MBTI types, but it's usually just because I have noticed certain body language traits amongst certain types at times and it's only really in regards to ENFPs and INFPs. Otherwise I struggle to identify anything and there are exceptions. I think eye movement is a big one - but it's one of those areas that just varies too much, I love thinking about it. What do you think?
@@vondelpete I think there's some truth to the body language thing. I once started watching a non-skit series about 16 people of each differently personality type living in a house together, and I found it interesting how the INTJ and ISFP have really similar body language, because they share all the same functions, just in a different order.
What have you learned in regards to type and eye contact? I'm terrible with eye contact.
Oh I think there is definitely a connection with body language and type, sometimes a very obvious link and sometimes very subtle…
It's a funny thing because tge two types are similar - very similar. But Fi is my demon function. Ti is your demon function, if I'm not mistaken. There is a part of each other that we simply cannot understand and that trips us both up very badly.
Honestly, if u look at the shadow side of the intp and infp’s have each other’s demon function so intp has Fi as their demon and Infps have Ti as their demon. And if u research about the demon function it is neglected and hated by their dominant function. They also like just can’t use it very well and according to another UA-camr: Cs Joseph he says that the user doesn’t rlly care about their demon as it’s something they cannot use. I think your getting mixed up by the intp and infp own thinking axis and they use thinking and feeling in a completely different way
For exemple infp care about the thinking of others so deeply it becomes an insecurity (te is in their inferior after all) they can’t use their own logic (Ti) because they only care about the thinking of others like statistics,credits,research.
And an intps own feelings don’t matter (Fi) as much as other peoples feelings as they have Fe in the inferior and Fe is all about other people emotion and values so that’s why they are prone to guilt because they are insecure about other peoples feelings and hurting them
@@melloz7571 Yes yes this!!!! I am so prone to guilt and bc of my difficulty making decisions (bc i just analyse it too much and get lost in complexities), I sometimes do things that are simply convenient for others, in fear of upsetting, hurting them or the worst thing - being rejected. But I'm trying to become stronger and focus on my Si more! Create more healthy routines, sort of, organize my emotional space as much as the thinking is organised by it, build myself reliable fallback strategies, comforting stability, it really helps out!
There's also the Ni as shadow function that acts on anxiety a lot, as if something terrible is about to happen, really driving me to some catastrophic thinking sometimes if I'm unwell, too exhausted etc to combat it with logic bc it does NOT make sense but I don't even get why I get this paranoidal fear in the first place bc that Fi is so so inaccessible. It is exactly when Si helps out, giving access to memory, categorising it as X psychological phenomenon and grounding in this way, giving access to tried and true protocols when it comes to dealing with it.
But this is why INTPs, esp immature ones, are unfortunately easily manipulated, exploited by fake friends etc. We do wish to form meaningful bonds, make people happy but are very clumsy about it and the realisation of something being bad for us is usually very very delayed and only gets easier as we accumulate these painful experiences, only memories there to guide us. (though befriending someone like an INFJ is very helpful! To consult them on when I feel queasy in some way and unable to identify what even is that emotion specifically, let alone what caused it but they always know what questions to ask and help me make sense of it, uncover what is really happening and how to deal with it! i am infinitely grateful!)
@@Noelciaaa I relate to everything you said as an intp as well like this constant inner fear of making people feel bad or hurting their feelings sometimes gets the best of me. I did want to mention that Ni critic the anxiety is often provoked from not knowing what you want to do because of how the future is gonna turn out for you because the function Ni is all about wants desires and your own future path we get really nervous about choosing the wrong choice or wanting something only to find out it was huge mistake in the future
As it is our critic we often see other people wanting or choosing the wrong choice which makes us even more weary about choosing our own choice
Agreed
I have always thought that I could relate quite a lot to I*tp types as an infp
So this is why I can't figure out which type of NP I am.
In conclusion....The concept of 16 personalities is way too complicated...💀
-INTP
Edit:- I was mis typed...I am actually an INFJ... which is unbelievable to me as well...
Very interesting!!!! -intj
As an INTP I've never heard of Fi included with my Ti in making decisions but I do know my shadow function Fi is 8th slot how is it possible for two introverted functions working together in how I process and come to a conclusion .
I think there's room to speculate, but in some sense I think we're just using all of our eight functions, all the time, and it's just more about preference: INTPs are going to mainly be relying on their Ti but the Fi is still buried underneath. Kind of like how an ENTP might be using Ne most of the time but the Se is still clearly there when engaging in physical activity, even in a slightly weaker and stranger way.
Yeah It makes sense when an ENTP uses Ne because Ne is frenetic and so Se can be that way too both functions are extroverted . @@vondelpete
In reality I could have flipped either way - INFP or INTP. However, from adolescence I started becoming more analytical. The older I got the more INTP I got. There's still a strong Fi component in my make up. In the Sakinorva test it is my third highest function. TI Ne. Then Fi. If you haven't done the Sakinorva test you'll find it very insightful - it measures the actual strength of the functions in your personality.
Interesting, and it’s funny to reflect on how I felt like an INTP until I reached about 14-15 years old.
I’m surprised your Fi was so high up with the Sakinorva test, but it goes to show how Fi and Ti can produce similar outcomes. My Ti, from memory of doing that test, was medium to low - but much higher than my Te.
@@vondelpete yeah Sakinorva have me as an IN(fadedT)P. Their comment is that I may not fit the myers-brigg mould that well.
I don't want to make a big deal out of this but to me you've reached the wrong conclusion which I find typical of Fi. That I have Gi is not an indication that Fi and Ti are in any way related. Regards Ron
Sorry - meant to say that the fact that I have high Fi is not in any way an indication that Fi and Ti are in any way similar. I also need to be seen as relatively atypical though I'm sure they are many INTPs with high Fi and low Te who are a little INFP like.
For me Ti and Fi are divergent functions. Though I have INFP traits my Ti dominance makes me completely different feom INFPs.
I believe Ti and Fi are often well developed for INFPs and INTPs respectively because of our conscious unwillingness to utilize our 4th extroverted judging function Te of Fe respectively. As time passes Fi and Ti love engaging with Fe and Te of course the first step in improving our 5th function is by recognizing our short comings with it. In this engagement we necessarily have to unconsciously develop our 8th function of Ti or Fi to be remarkably sound and functional. This 8th function development then helps us avoid our 4th as long as possible without facing negative consequences. I believe that the consequence of having these functions so low in our function stack is a greater difficulty for external circumstances to change our 8th functions judgements (aka we're stubborn with it) whereas our 1st function is much more nimble and easily attuned to our lived experiences. However once you realize this stubbornness you can question and analyze you behaviors in the Fe or Te landscape to slowly improve your Ti or Fi reasoning or become more secure in your Ti or Fi reasoning to the point where one can now sort of communicate their reasoning.
This is my favourite explanation/theory I've ever heard, this feels very accurate to me. Thank you!
I also had this theory but I think it's because we take responsibility for all our introverted functions (and extroverts take responsibility for all extroverted functions). However, using Te as an INFP feels more empowering than using Ti because Ti always feels threatening to my Fi. They occur as doubts against my belief/ value system. Yet I am much more aware of it than my Se so Se turns out to be my least developed function because I just don't care about it all and have no intention to improve on it. However, with Ti I feel as if I have to domesticate it to be on my side so that I can feel safe with my Fi. So Ti becomes very useful when I have to criticize other views, especially views that stand against my Fi values, sort of like projecting onto others the bullets that my Ti has directed against my Fi.
@@thesilenttreatment6837 I'm always going back and forth on this - I know that, with Se as my blindspot, it's nothing I ever care to develop, whereas I also value Ti in order to help assist my Fi. I think that makes sense. Then again I clearly don't value Ti for its own sake, and much more value Te, and the idea of 'solutions' and trying to learn, complete tasks, but that's typical of any INFP.
I also can't decide whether I'm INTP or INFP. It's weird cause they should be far apart.
Yeah it's always fascinating to me how similar they can be, meeting another INTP to me is usually a very similar feeling to meeting another INFP
I think as a Ti user, it's used as a coping mechanism.. ti is truth related and not so much connecting .
Yeah, I can definitely see that. Then again I think Fi is a coping mechanism for me too haha...not so much connecting and more...disconnecting from others?
I want an infp convention. Or just type-specific conventions.
I definitely want this too. I find it funny in daily life when I see people of the same type congregate together even though they assumedly don’t know about MBTI or that they’re all the same types 😂
I am an ISTP and I do agree that Ti and Fi are somehow related in the way they work but with obvious differences in what they work with.
An analogy I just came up with would be a plant and a machine or factory. Both use physical and chemical processes to convert raw materials and energy into products. They are similar in concept but obviously not quite the same.
In one point however I have to disagree. For me Ti isn't mysterious at all - apart from the obvious fact that we still don't know much about how the brain and mind actually work - because it's so logical in nature. Almost every thought it produces I can trace back to where it came from. I can also observe my mind while it is thinking about something and even think about that and so on until it gets several levels deep and my brain starts to melt. 😉 Obviously I don't do such things all the time because just like with a computer running monitoring and debugging tools in the background uses up valuable resources and slows down the actual program.
The mysterious part of my mind is Ni. Sometimes it comes up with ideas or insights seemingly out of nowhere and I don't know how accurate they are and if I can trust them without putting them through the Ti first.
That's a good analogy I think, they're both similar processes but coming from a very different angle. Other comments have also said that Ti doesn't come across to Ti users as mysterious - which is really interesting to me, as my Hero Fi feels very mysterious. But then, that's naturally going to be the nature of a 'feeling' function.
I've been trying to explore how Ni is felt by ISTP and ISFPs lately and observe how it manifests in those types as a child function so it's great to hear your experiences, thank you :)
I know this first hand because my sister is INFP. I've been down this road.
For the most part I think we can get on very well. I suspect in very close relationships there's going to a big conflict between Ti hero and Fi hero
Yeah for the most part - I get on very well with Ti hero types and have lifelong friendships. But I’ve never been able to connect romantically with Ti types at all - lots of respect, friendship, humour, warmth, but…not romance.
@@vondelpete
Why do you think that is if you don't mind me asking?
@@treblestrings6263 I lie in this last statement: I've been romantically connected to many Ti types, but it's mainly been INFJs and ENFJs. It's TPs in particular I often find something missing and I suppose it's just not sensing the Fi, which maybe I relate more strongly to as an INFP. Wouldn't be surprised if I just haven't had enough experience though.
@@vondelpete
How could you lie to me!
I thought INFPs were supposed to be authentic! 😭😭😭
@@treblestrings6263 we are all liars!
cant wait to say im the OG
I reckon you can say it now
INTP will see INFP as crazy and irrational and INFP may accuse INTP of being just a horrible person. INTP won't be able to convince INFP of most things. INFP will hit INTP where it hurts most - in his/her Inferior Fe function. It's a hard road this one.
I think Ti and Fi are different. I really do. From a Ti perspective there's very little quite as frustrating as trying to deal with someone who's primary function is Fi. No matter how rationally we try to explain something it hits a brick wall.
Your concept of the cognitive functions is clearly based on or at least heavily influecened by MBTI definitions of the functions.
These are not accurate, please stop using these definitions.
The functions are as such:
-Fi: Personal *MORAL* sense. Sympathy. What I PERSONALY feel is a good or Bad thing.
-Fe: *ETHICAL* awareness. Empathy. What OTHERS FEEL is a good or bad thing.
-Ti: *LOGICAL* awareness. Deductive Reasoning. Assuming the information I already have is true, then what else can I absolutely prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, to ALSO be true, so long as my starting information is correct?
Deductive Reasoning uses PROOF to PROVE something is true, by eliminating all other possible options.
-Te: *RATIONALE* awareness. Inductive Reasoning. What is MOST LIKELY the truth, what do OTHERS THINK is the truth. What do STATISTICS show is most likely true. What does my RESEARCH show is most Likely true.
Inductive reasoning, uses EVIDENCE to SUPPORT that something might be true, simply because everything seems to be pointing in the direction of it being true.
Every Fi user, is also a Te user (the 2 functions are attached to one another), so all Moral individuals, are also, highly rational, and vice versa.
Every Ti user, is also a Fe user (the 2 functions are again linked), so all Logical individuals, are also highly Ethical, and vice versa.
You have likely mistakened high Te users for high Ti users, (at least a lot of people seem to do this fron what I've seen) in which case, of course they are using Fi in their Rational reasoning. And of course Fi users are using rationale in their moral decision making.
As for the perception functions:
-Ni: Desire, Ambition, wants, goals! Focus. Ni is about deciding, 'what I want for MY FUTURE.' It looks at what options are available to it, and chooses only what it considers the ABSOLUTE BEST options for itself. This makes it very focused, and so Ni users can easily stay focus on their own goals for a very long time. Ni is about deciding your own fate/future
-Ne: Metaphysical awareness. What are ALL the possible options available? What do OTHERS want for their future? What do WE want for OUR collective future? Ne looks at what others want with their Ni and is also aware of all the possibilities what what COULD happend and what options others COULD choose. Thise makes them insainly good at predicting the future,
-Si: Duty. Awareness of NEEDS. What makes ME comfortable, what is a good experience for me? Attention span. Mental Endurance/Strength Si users feel a sense of duty for the things they need to do! They also value having good experiences so safety and comfort are very important to them! They have a great attention span, because they look to take in everything they are experiencing at any given moment on time. Because they pay so much attention to the own experiences, they have a good long term memory.
-Se: physical and mechanical awareness. Preformance. Reaction time. What OTHER PEOPLE are doing. What OTHER PEOPLE'S experiences, are like. Have totemic memory. (They associate their memories with certain objects/situations, so they dont have to remember it long term themselves. They can instead be reminded of their memories when relevant.)
Se users are constantly considering how others around them are experiencing life, and especially how others are experiencing THEMSELVES (the se user). They want to look good, and capable, and want to gives others a good experience, so they put in the effort to look good, sound good and preform well! Because they are constantly looking for feedback from others, (eg facial expressions, body language, etc) as to how they are being experienced by others, they are very aware of everything happening right in that given moment. This gives them a good short term memory, as well as a fast reaction time.
Again, Se users are also Ni users. Ambitious, goal oriented individuals, who are motivated by their desires, often care about looking and performing well in front of others, as well.
Ne users are also Si users. Mentally strong, duty motivated people, who prioritise their needs before their wants, with good long term memory, are usually the ones that are good at prediction the future. (Makes sense right? The more experienced you are, the better your predictions.)
These are the definitions of the functions according to CS Joseph's Type Grid system. Please use them instead of your current definitions as they are more consistant and accurate.