"What Atheists Don't Understand" - Jordan Peterson
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- Опубліковано 26 кві 2024
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This is gibberish. Christ didn't sacrifice "everything". He sacrificed his weekend. He's supposedly fine now. He has endless power and immortality. He can just put it all behind him. Meanwhile he will condemn billions to endless suffering on the basis that they "inherited" sin from their distant ancestors. Ridiculous.
I never really agreed with the idea that suffering is inherently unfair because if God cares so much he could just let us be happy all the time. Happiness wouldn't exist without suffering, you cannot have one part of a dichotomy in a vacuum.
Additionally, I don't think the Bible ever claimed that Christ did anything of the sorts, Christ was not the one pulling the strings at all. And what he did sacrifice was his life. He had 12 people who adored him, yet was betrayed and brutally murdered for it. You don't think that in a story-like sense this is clearly getting at unnecessary suffering caused not by God but by humans?
Suffering exists whether you want it to or not, that's a simple fact of life. But unnecessary suffering can be mitigated by everyone trying their best to be honest, strong, compassionate, loving, etc. I don't think the idea that humans are inherently flawed and make mistakes that they know they could have avoided if they just had the willpower to do so is ridiculous at all, and I think that's essentially what the whole "original sin" argument is getting at. We're all flawed, we all have some sort of darker part of our psyche that is very much willing to destroy everything around us and then itself if pushed far enough. Look at Columbine, look at any person who's ever seriously considered ending themselves. I'm one of the latter category so I am fully aware of that potential inside of me and how it'd tear me down and everyone around me with it if it got its way.
@@valhalla_1129 Christ is God correct? Well then he's definitely the one pulling all the strings. Hell as an infinite punishment for finite wrongdoing is not instructive as there is nothing that comes after it.
@@garrgravarr whether christ is or isn't god depends on which denomination you ask I believe, but I think your point still stands
Well stated.
And had Jesus lived ... the Jews would have hated him for good reason. Unless Jews are traitors to Judaism, they do NOT start or become involved in a Catholic religion ... which is what the Catholics want us to believe occurred in the life of Jesus and his so-called disciples.
It would be comparable to the pope leaving Catholicism to start a Protestant religion.
it just would NOT happen.
Judas would have been the only Jew to stay faithful to Judaism. Jesus and his "disciples" would have committed heresy against the faithful to Judaism Jews.
From the book ... The Incredible Book of Vatican Facts and Papal Curiosities … A treasury of Trivia, by Nino Lo Bello~ Published 1998. .
Has there ever been a Jewish pope?
The first pope, Saint Peter, was, like all of the original twelve disciples, born into Jewish family and raised a Jew.
@@valhalla_1129 If you could create a universe ... would suffering exist? You KNOW it wouldn't. Otherwise you would have to admit your own failure as a creator.
I was "able" to discard all religious myths as being folly when I read the scientific theory that in one form or another ... the universe and energy always existed ... no creator ... no plan ... and that suffering of all forms of life is natural.
It's just common sense.
"Given a choice between creating humans who will suffer for eternity and not creating the human race … I would simply not create them." Author … Mike Siler
Thanks for honoring my freedom of speech.
“Since the masses of the people are inconstant, full of unruly desires, passionate, and reckless of consequences, they must be filled with fears to keep them in order. The ancients did well, therefore, to invent gods, and the belief in punishment after death.” Roman historian, Polybius.
You don’t have to sacrifice but you might have to compromise
that's a sacrifice
I don't see how compromise is a form of sacrifice. Compromise is a form of expediency, and sacrifice is definitely not. So, for this reason, compromise isn't a viable alternative strategy. It's accepting your current reality, instead of making painful yet rational decisions in the present, for the attainment of an ideal you would value in the future.
Sacrifice is giving something up
@@charlespell7762 sacrifice is giving something up
@@mikeomonkey Agreed. Any possible distinction that can be drawn between "sacrifice" & "compromise" evaporates when regarding Jordan's pseudo-argument in combination to the sense in which Jordan uses the word "sacrifice". He is using it in the sense that you've acknowledged, which is "giving up something". Essentially, Jordan is asserting that "Atheists" don't believe in "giving something up", or Atheism is the nonbelief in "giving something up", which is an equivocation fallacy on his behalf. Jordan does this all the time.
My perception is that the earliest of theologians claimed that gods were talking to them ... but that story was not as effective as the theologians expected. So they created stories that humans were SO evil ... and SO disobedient to the gods, that the gods felt impelled to send their own sons to earth ... to in turn warn the evil humans that they MUST repent of sin TO these sons of gods ... or spend eternity in the "afterlife" suffering.
The supposed savior of souls of Christians, was just the most recent savior-myth story. Example as follows, and please note how Chrishna was spelled, before the Christians came up with the word Christ, and how the Hindus then changed the spelling of their supposed savior to "Krishna."
From the book … The World’s Sixteen Crucified Saviors … Christianity before Christ, by Kersey Graves … first published in 1875.
and finally these twenty Jesus Christs (accepting their character for the name) laid the foundation for the salvation of the world, and ascended back to heaven.
1. Chrishna of Hindostan.
2. Budha Sakia of India.
3. Salivahana of Bermuda
4. Zulis, or Zhule, also Osiris and Orus, of Egypt.
5. Odin of the Scandinavians.
6. Crite of Chaldea.
7. Zoroaster and Mithra of Persia.
8. Baal and Taut, “the only Begotten of God,” of Phenicia.
9. Indra of Thibet.
10. Bali of Afghanistan.
11. Jao of Nepaul.
12. Wittoa of the Bilingonese.
13. Thammuz of Syria.
14. Atys of Phrygia.
15. Xamolxis of Thrace.
16. Zoar of the Bonzes.
17. Adad of Assyria.
18. Deva Tat,aud Sammonocadam of Siam.
19. Alcides of Thebes.
20. Mikado of the Sintoos.
21. Beddru of Japan.
22. Hesus or Eros, and Bremrillah, of the Druids.
23. Thor, son of Odin, of the Gauls.
24. Cadmus of Greece.
25. Hil and Feta of the Mandaites.
26. Gentaut and Quexalcote of Mexico.
27. Universal Monarch of the Sibyls.
28. Ischy of the Island of Formosa.
29. Divine teacher of Plato.
30. Holy One of xaca.
31. Fohi and Tien of China.
32. Adonis, son of the virgin Io of Greece.
33. Ision and Quirinus of Rome.
34. Prometheus of Caucasus.
35. Mohammud, or Mahomet, of Arabia.
These have all received divine honors, have nearly all been worshiped as Gods, or sons of Gods; were mostly incarnated as Christs, Saviors, Messiahs, or Mediators; not a few of them were reputedly born of virgins; some of them filling a character almost identical with that ascribed by the Christian’s bible to Jesus Christ; many of them like him, are reported crucified; and all of them, taken together, furnish a prototype and parallel for nearly every important incident and wonder-inciting miracle, doctrine and precept recorded in the New Testament, of the Christian’s Savior. Surely, with so many Saviors the world cannot, or should not, be lost.
I think somehow unknowingly you actually agree with Peterson on this though.
The Bible is a story, first and foremost. Or a collection of stories. Christians might claim that they have the answer to everything, but really it's just part of the same pattern of heroic stories and stories of rebirth and confronting adversity that Peterson is getting at. The Bible is simply the easiest to access and most widely known version of it, but Peterson talks about the fact that the Bible was influenced by cultures far older than Christianity all the time if you listen to his speeches. I personally really like them, and I think what you're pointing out is incredibly fascinating, so thank you for teaching me something. I really appreciate that.
However, I don't agree with your second comment you left talking about how "fear" keeps people in line. It certainly can, but so can the honest actualization of raw human potential to be good. If you tell someone a story that has lived through our civilizations dozens or hundreds of times throughout history and it tells of how somebody rose from the masses as something simple like a carpenter and he was the best of all of us not for his incredible power that would send you to eternal punishment if you misbehave, but for his virtues of compassion, forgiveness and honesty, then surely you can inspire someone to do a bit better not by scaring him into it but by showing him how good a person could possibly be, right?
I mean, the fact that this story has been told for god knows how many thousands of years speaks volumes about how we're inherently drawn to that ideal, to someone who can act out those virtues and be the best version of themselves that they could be.
@@valhalla_1129 The fact that people were and are inclined to put faith in religious myths as being of high value ... doesn't say much for humans.
Other animals stick to the reality of life on planet earth ONLY ... NOT in an afterlife.
Do you believe that people can be "good" without having a belief in a god?
I spend 70 years being confused by my childhood religious indoctrination. I am almost 85 now, am free of all religious myths ... and believe that if I am as kind to others as each situation allows ... I can't do better than my best ... and my attitude is ... "let the chips fall where they may."
@@valhalla_1129 "Moreover -- if I may put another strain upon you -- he thinks he is the Creator's pet. He believes the Creator is proud of him; he even believes the Creator loves him; has a passion for him; sits up nights to admire him; yes, and watch over him and keep him out of trouble. He prays to Him, and thinks He listens. Isn't it a quaint idea? "
'Letters from Earth'- Mark Twain
@@junevandermark952 Great quote. Love Twain. Re' now being free of all religious myths, congratulation! I was thinking along the same lines yesterday - I've been listening to people online discussing their faith, they ask themselves 'who is god, who isn't god, is Jesus God, is jesus not a god, is god a being, is he being itself, is hell real, does heaven really exist , does the hadith override the Quran, does Allah actually admire Mohammad etc"... every time I hear them talk in circles & twist themselves into knots, I can't help but think life is so much more honest, & subsequently much more beautiful as seen through the eyes of a nonbeliever
@@valhalla_1129 "I think somehow unknowingly you actually agree with Peterson on this though"
Actually agree? Even if an atheist did agree, the point is moot. Atheism isn't the nonbelief in fiction, or the nonbelief in the utility of fiction. It's an equivocation fallacy on Jordan's behalf.
It's not "what atheists don't understand", it's 'what Jordan doesn't understand about atheism', likewise 'what Jordan doesn't understand about incompatible senses of words'.
Atheism isn't a disbelief in, or the disbelief in the utility of "sacrifice", when the word 'sacrifice' is used in the the non-supernatural, non-spooky, & non-otherworldly sense - which is the sense Jordan uses it.