I prefer the lack of split screen. It makes it clearer what is going on. Ian has traditionally struggled with the spinners, so I actually think that he did quite well. He can run pretty fast when he wants to, too.
Watching this makes me think about the utility of using +p for this kind of competition. I really respect the way Ian transitioned to his rifle and really brought the heat. Kudos for never giving up.
The biggest thing is what can we learn from this? For me, it's how stress affects the thought process, whether it's timer stress, athletic stress, or "real" stress. When y'all give your after action report, we see how y'all think you should have or could have done something different, plus how the stress affects motor skills. I was pleased to see Ian blaze through the rifle paper targets, instead of aimed shots as he's done before. Good job guys, thank you.
InRangeTV What grain of 9mm & 5.56mm were you both using? I found 124's near or at NATO spec a good compromise between power and follow up. Many folks with moderate 115's or gamey 147's @-800fps often go to war with steel knockdown if shot placement isn't tight in local matches. Longer range steel knockdowns 69gr+ for 5.56 for energy transfer and to buck the windage hold over. Great series!
As for hitting the spinners, at the range where I shoot, there are some swinging steel gongs at 25 yards, and 40 S&W, .357 magnum, 10mm and .45 acp all hit them a LOT harder than 9mm. But, remember there's a big trade off involved, because for all the rest of the pistol targets you have a lot more ammo in your gun with 9mm.
Since Ian is running a red dot and Karl is running irons on their pistols I have a personal observation. I have a G17 with red dot and a G34 with irons (black rear/fiber front) that I'm shooting almost exclusively these days in a effort to improve and have noticed I actually run the iron sights better than the red dot. The red dot groups are more consistent, but more consistently worse than the irons. Counterintuitive I know, but I think the dot gives me the false sense that I can run that pistol faster than I really can. Guess factory Glock mags really are worth it!
I can never understand how you guys describe the stages. It always sounds like a clusterfuck, I've watched this intro 3 times and I still have no idea what's going on. It's really unfortunate, I think these competitions would be so much fun, but no matter the description, I just can't ever understand what's being asked of the shooters.
As someone who has never tackled a spinner, I have a question. If we take seeing/hitting the target out of the equation, how much of a factor is the travel time at those longer distances in establishing a rhythm? There is a slight delay in the bullet getting downrange and a bigger delay in the sound getting back. Is the total time lag a problem or does the human mind make short work of the math and leave you with an intuitive trigger timing? Please answer this question lest I find myself in the garage banging out a spinner of my own to try it .. which might happen anyhow. :-D
BravoGorilla I wouldn't say the 500/590 is better, but more personal preference. Like where the safety is located and the mossberg has two bars on the pump instead of one. It's a pump shotgun, they are pretty hard to mess up.
I recently took a training course (Sage Dynamics) where a couple people ran Magpul GL mags in G19s and had the same feed problems. The mags seem to do better in G17s. At least they're good for full power malfunction clearance practice. Karl, do you feel that adding a magnifier on a QD swing mount would benefit you enough without a big weight penalty? I run a Holosun w/ ACSS and a 3x Burris in an ADM 180 DEGREE pivot mount on my MCX. The magnifier stays tucked in better with that mount and the ACSS reticle with magnification is even better.
I actually had a bad glock magazine. Bought the gun used with two magazines and one of them was twisted. The metal housing was somehow twisted to the point when loaded I could barely get it in gun and I had to pull it back out.....it still fed and functioned. But I stopped by glock one day and they replaced it no charge no questions asked.
Ian , Karl thank you for the great video. It was a pleasure to see this stage of the match. This 2 gun match looks like it's a lot of fun. Do you know if the promoters of this match have any thing like this in South West Florida? Thanks again for all you do.
Having watched almost all the 2 guns on this channel i see Ian's arch nemesis is still the pistol spinner, followed closely by the polish plate rack and Texas star
I'm curious about whether a heavy round does better with the spinners? If you use a huge cartridges like Desert Eagle .50 Cal or a fast cartridge like AR handguns AKA Olympic Arms' OA-98 would it spin them quicker?
Are there caliber limits on pistol? Almost seems like if one could use a 10mm and practiced enough to be good with it, you could cut some major time on the pistol spinners with a more powerful cartridge. That 9mm really takes a while to get them going. Even a 45...
There was a major "pucker factor" for me when I saw Ian, and spinner targets on the same screen, historically he's had trouble with them (albeit with vintage guns). But it's nice to see him improving as a shooter, clearing 2 of the 3 pistol spinners. Do you think the RMR/red dot on his handgun has helped him?
Would a different handgun or revolver using a different, maybe more powerful cartridge lead to less shots needed to spin the spinner or would it have little effect at all?
Tequila Cured Salmon Carpaccio With Vodka Foam multiple consecutive hits rotate the spinner more effectively than single heavier projectiles in hand guns.
Oh. Good to know. I kind of figured they'd flatten out...Do FMJs offer an advantage, or does it really not matter? I suppose at that speed, with that little resistance, perhaps the shape/material of the bullet isn't as important as the weight/speed.
I've had issues with my magpul glock mags now they are dedicated to just range use any serious training or range days I run glock mags and haven't seen any other aftermarket mags that work as good as the factory mags
Poor GLOCK haters - Ian said it was a bad mag. Awesome video. Can't wait to get out there and make a fool of myself. What's the record for the most shots fired without moving the spinner?
I realize that I'm a bit late to the party, but it looked like Ian was fighting a serious headwind on the third spinner. Just wondering if it might not have made the whole thing more of a challenge than if there'd been no wind.
I feel you guys are being too nice in regards to this stage. It seems to be to be poor design for 95% of the people being literally unable to finish the stage. Tough is one thing, but almost unfinishable is another.
Man, you've make them look so easy :< Hats off to Ian though, he is not disheartened and actually did "git gud" to be 4th in his division, damn! On semi-related note - why is it opposite day with you two every single day? :< "Unbreakable" stuff fails and "crap" actually works fine? Glock/M9, AR/AK in the mud, mosin just failing miserably, etc etc Dad yelled at me yesterday (after I kindly pointed out that AKs seem to fail really badly in the mud and ARs just work fine) that I'd must have been reading that damn interwebs nonsense again ;(
I'm rooting for you both real hard. From the first stage this looks, well, hard as hell. Great so far. Also Karl what camo is that you're wearing mate? ATACS?
Might it have been better to go full crazy and taken insane weapons like a .50DE and a Barrett? At a certain point the increased firepower has to override any downsides as you can flip the spinners in one or two shots. I know this is not the point of the whole exercise, but it would be funny.
Wouldn't it be smart to take a more powerfull Pistol Cartridge for this event, like the glock 10mm? Because then the 360 degree Targets would be much easier I think. Greetings from Germany.
Isn't it kind of unsafe to require the shooter to fire on a target point blank backed by rocks? Also kind of pointless - it's not like you're going to miss at that range. Kind of odd choices.
It strikes me that throwing a shot a each spinner and then ignoring it while cleaning the rest of the targets probably could have resulted in a time as fast or faster than Karl. Not a good stage design.
Almost got my brains blown out because of a glock mag malfunction. Mag somehow flipped a round up. So I went to remove the mag which in turn let the slide rock forward. Handed the gun to my friend who was unaware of the malfunction and my nervous tendency to pace. To make sure the gun was safe he pointed the gun at the ground which happened to be in my direction. He said he couldn't pull the slid back and instinctively "pulled the trigger?" The round bounced up and smacked a tree 2 inches from my think box. Never let him touch my funs ever again. Also no bueno el glockamole.
I prefer the lack of split screen. It makes it clearer what is going on. Ian has traditionally struggled with the spinners, so I actually think that he did quite well. He can run pretty fast when he wants to, too.
Starfireaw11 he is an antelope in disguise
2:50 ...is that a mandalorian on a tricycle?
5:50 ...yes, yes it is.
I like you guys. You guys are alright.
BuffaloSoldia0 my exact thoughts...
That was actually a cosplay costume the R.O. borrowed from his son.
That just makes the stage harder.
THOSE GOD DAMN FIDGET SPINNERS ARE EVERYWHERE!!!
I'm sick of those things too. ~Karl
Wow. You both timed out, and still finished fourth in your respective divisions. I am very impressed, both by the two of you and the match designers!
Watching this makes me think about the utility of using +p for this kind of competition.
I really respect the way Ian transitioned to his rifle and really brought the heat. Kudos for never giving up.
The biggest thing is what can we learn from this? For me, it's how stress affects the thought process, whether it's timer stress, athletic stress, or "real" stress. When y'all give your after action report, we see how y'all think you should have or could have done something different, plus how the stress affects motor skills. I was pleased to see Ian blaze through the rifle paper targets, instead of aimed shots as he's done before. Good job guys, thank you.
You guys really should do a mud test on that Beretta in the future. I am curious of the results with it being a open slide design.
michael moore MAC did a mud test with a M9a1
MAC did one. It did pretty well, not perfect, but near. I've seen others do similar tests with the same results of not perfect but pretty darn close.
Everytime I see those spinners my anxiety peeks. Would using a .45 transfer more energy to the target?
Yes, but then you also have less rounds for the rest of the COF. ~karl
spacedredd why use 45 when you can u use 10mm ;) has more capacity too
Yeah those spinners were ridiculous. 10mm for the pistol and full size 7.62 seem like a necessity here.
InRangeTV What grain of 9mm & 5.56mm were you both using? I found 124's near or at NATO spec a good compromise between power and follow up. Many folks with moderate 115's or gamey 147's @-800fps often go to war with steel knockdown if shot placement isn't tight in local matches.
Longer range steel knockdowns 69gr+ for 5.56 for energy transfer and to buck the windage hold over.
Great series!
Ryan Wing Wo And then possibly accidentally blowing up a chamber.
As for hitting the spinners, at the range where I shoot, there are some swinging steel gongs at 25 yards, and 40 S&W, .357 magnum, 10mm and .45 acp all hit them a LOT harder than 9mm. But, remember there's a big trade off involved, because for all the rest of the pistol targets you have a lot more ammo in your gun with 9mm.
Damn Ian, I was waiting to see that rifle go to work! You'll get it next time!
I believe it is only 2.5x magnification
What is that optic he is using, Ian has never mentioned what it was
Judging from previous WWSD videos, it looks like a Primary Arms 2.5x prism scope.
I wanted to say while Karl made that pistol part of the stage look easy it was because he did that very well. Honestly excellent work.
That was a very tough stage ! You both took it on like bosses. Strong work and lots of lessons learned. Thanks for sharing !
Since Ian is running a red dot and Karl is running irons on their pistols I have a personal observation. I have a G17 with red dot and a G34 with irons (black rear/fiber front) that I'm shooting almost exclusively these days in a effort to improve and have noticed I actually run the iron sights better than the red dot. The red dot groups are more consistent, but more consistently worse than the irons. Counterintuitive I know, but I think the dot gives me the false sense that I can run that pistol faster than I really can. Guess factory Glock mags really are worth it!
These stage designs are a total Cluster!
LOVE these vids. Thanks guys.
I can never understand how you guys describe the stages. It always sounds like a clusterfuck, I've watched this intro 3 times and I still have no idea what's going on.
It's really unfortunate, I think these competitions would be so much fun, but no matter the description, I just can't ever understand what's being asked of the shooters.
Dat Mando just chillin on the side though. 10/10
As someone who has never tackled a spinner, I have a question. If we take seeing/hitting the target out of the equation, how much of a factor is the travel time at those longer distances in establishing a rhythm? There is a slight delay in the bullet getting downrange and a bigger delay in the sound getting back. Is the total time lag a problem or does the human mind make short work of the math and leave you with an intuitive trigger timing?
Please answer this question lest I find myself in the garage banging out a spinner of my own to try it .. which might happen anyhow. :-D
excellent performance gentlemen. that was a brutal course
Remington 870 mud test please
james frederick it'd probably rust before they get the mud on it
BravoGorilla I wouldn't say the 500/590 is better, but more personal preference. Like where the safety is located and the mossberg has two bars on the pump instead of one. It's a pump shotgun, they are pretty hard to mess up.
You would not believe the number of 870s I've seen with bulged barrels because some idiot subscribed to the old "Just shoot it out" school of thought.
Ian: "Hard as hell, you might say." 😀
I recently took a training course (Sage Dynamics) where a couple people ran Magpul GL mags in G19s and had the same feed problems. The mags seem to do better in G17s. At least they're good for full power malfunction clearance practice. Karl, do you feel that adding a magnifier on a QD swing mount would benefit you enough without a big weight penalty? I run a Holosun w/ ACSS and a 3x Burris in an ADM 180 DEGREE pivot mount on my MCX. The magnifier stays tucked in better with that mount and the ACSS reticle with magnification is even better.
I actually had a bad glock magazine. Bought the gun used with two magazines and one of them was twisted. The metal housing was somehow twisted to the point when loaded I could barely get it in gun and I had to pull it back out.....it still fed and functioned. But I stopped by glock one day and they replaced it no charge no questions asked.
Ian , Karl thank you for the great video. It was a pleasure to see this stage of the match. This 2 gun match looks like it's a lot of fun. Do you know if the promoters of this match have any thing like this in South West Florida? Thanks again for all you do.
What is the point of the waist high targets 1m away?
We don't know either. Wasting ammo? ~Karl
Dustin Tate wounded enemies
war crime simulator 2017
Having watched almost all the 2 guns on this channel i see Ian's arch nemesis is still the pistol spinner, followed closely by the polish plate rack and Texas star
Hey Karl, It seemed that you were sweeping the timer with the way you had your rifle slung on your back. Or does that even constitute sweeping?
The rifle was unloaded and not constrained by the 180 rule until it was loaded later in the stage. ~Karl
Man those spinners looked brutal. Great job!
I'm curious about whether a heavy round does better with the spinners? If you use a huge cartridges like Desert Eagle .50 Cal or a fast cartridge like AR handguns AKA Olympic Arms' OA-98 would it spin them quicker?
Hot damn, that stage was brutal. I loved Ian's run and gun with the rifle though. Looked very, well... action-y?
Are there caliber limits on pistol? Almost seems like if one could use a 10mm and practiced enough to be good with it, you could cut some major time on the pistol spinners with a more powerful cartridge. That 9mm really takes a while to get them going. Even a 45...
There was a major "pucker factor" for me when I saw Ian, and spinner targets on the same screen, historically he's had trouble with them (albeit with vintage guns). But it's nice to see him improving as a shooter, clearing 2 of the 3 pistol spinners. Do you think the RMR/red dot on his handgun has helped him?
Wow! They got the name right calling it Hard as Hell.
Ian, you maybe should have saved your high capacity magazine for the 50 yard pistol spinner.
Would a different handgun or revolver using a different, maybe more powerful cartridge lead to less shots needed to spin the spinner or would it have little effect at all?
Mass on target helps. A 45 would help a little, but then you have diminished capacity. ~Karl
Tequila Cured Salmon Carpaccio With Vodka Foam multiple consecutive hits rotate the spinner more effectively than single heavier projectiles in hand guns.
Sounds like you need a .50AE Desert Eagle with hollow points. Spin that puppy in one shot, right? Lol
hollow points wouldn't help in this case because there is no expension of the bullet on steel.
Oh. Good to know. I kind of figured they'd flatten out...Do FMJs offer an advantage, or does it really not matter? I suppose at that speed, with that little resistance, perhaps the shape/material of the bullet isn't as important as the weight/speed.
1:30 I think my head starts to spin ... 4 spinners, this sounds hard ...ohhh
Good job guys!
Brutal!
what a badass range and stage. I HAVE to do this.
I've had issues with my magpul glock mags now they are dedicated to just range use any serious training or range days I run glock mags and haven't seen any other aftermarket mags that work as good as the factory mags
Poor GLOCK haters - Ian said it was a bad mag.
Awesome video. Can't wait to get out there and make a fool of myself. What's the record for the most shots fired without moving the spinner?
we want more please
I would really like to try some of these.
Did anyone in your group(s) clean the stage?
Some people did finish, yes. I don't think anyone in our squad did, but I honestly can't recall. ~Karl
good shootin' boys. sure gets alot harder under stress!
I realize that I'm a bit late to the party, but it looked like Ian was fighting a serious headwind on the third spinner. Just wondering if it might not have made the whole thing more of a challenge than if there'd been no wind.
Karl, I would like to know about the belt and pouches you are carrying. nice vid.
+Doug Dukes At the end of this series we'll have a long video talking about all the gear, so stay tuned. Thanks! ~Karl
I feel you guys are being too nice in regards to this stage. It seems to be to be poor design for 95% of the people being literally unable to finish the stage. Tough is one thing, but almost unfinishable is another.
Well, it wasn't unfinishable. Some people did complete it. Sometimes it's good to get brutralized; it puts things back into perspective. ~Karl
Man, you've make them look so easy :< Hats off to Ian though, he is not disheartened and actually did "git gud" to be 4th in his division, damn!
On semi-related note - why is it opposite day with you two every single day? :< "Unbreakable" stuff fails and "crap" actually works fine?
Glock/M9, AR/AK in the mud, mosin just failing miserably, etc etc
Dad yelled at me yesterday (after I kindly pointed out that AKs seem to fail really badly in the mud and ARs just work fine) that I'd must have been reading that damn interwebs nonsense again ;(
Show him the videos. Nothing like being shown the actual objects them selves. ;)
Did you have to use a 556 or could you use a 308 for more punch.
You could have used 308 but it would have been a detriment for everything else other than the spinners. ~Karl
Is there a record in pistol spinner shooting?
thanks
Great coverage. I'm doubtful that the 3rd pistol spinner was at 50 yards. 15 maybe.
Would a 7.62 round have had a better effect on that last spinner? The 5.56 didn't seem to hit hard enough.
You guys should make a short video shooting the defective glockpul mag.
Ian and Pistol spinners a match made in hell
@karl why no flip up magnifier on your red dot?
Because I was shooting in Limited not Tac-Scope. That would have been a different Category. ~Karl
InRangeTV but the full WWSD build will include one?
tommihommi1 dont believe so
Can you do a carcano vs a m95 sometime in the future
I'm rooting for you both real hard. From the first stage this looks, well, hard as hell. Great so far. Also Karl what camo is that you're wearing mate? ATACS?
What was the deal with the Mandalorian on the mobility scooter?
+Raptor No idea.
What belts are you using?
I find the split screen distracting. I liked Ian's run better.
Awesome! The match namesake isn't just for show, eh?! Good job, both of you! Also, shame about the magpul mag. Stick with factory glock, brother!
Four spinners! I have nightmares like that.
Magpul glock mags are worse than gen 2 glock mags. Tried them for fun and because I trusted magpul. In 3 mags 2 of them caused multiple double feeds.
Glock perfection at work again.
Like that guy dressed up as Pre Vizsla (Not Boba Fett) that was included on the range
Might it have been better to go full crazy and taken insane weapons like a .50DE and a Barrett? At a certain point the increased firepower has to override any downsides as you can flip the spinners in one or two shots. I know this is not the point of the whole exercise, but it would be funny.
Or instead of a Barret a 45-70.
Did Karl muzzle sweep everyone behind him when he un-slung his rifle?
The 180 did not apply to the empty rifle until it was loaded. ~Karl
The RMR looked harder to aim with than iron sights :/.
Ian's Glock really shit the bed
Spinners seem kind of cruddy for a match. Sure they're difficult, but moving your aim 4 feet up and down 20 times doesn't seem good for practice.
Am I hearing things, or was Ian's first shot with the rifle a hit?
No, that was the sound of his ejected shell hitting the ground. Probably landed on another spent casing.
56% completion- 4th place...well I'm never going to that
Ian got mad
Sometimes it can be frustrating. ~Karl
Huh.... I was in Robocop. And Robocop 2, and Robocop 3.
I am friends with the guys who build ED 209.
holy QD bipod
We'll have a whole video on that bipod. It's very interesting. ~Karl
It's a good thing I dont do stuff like that... would have thrown that Glock at the last spinner o_o
Does that result in a penalty? :D
Is this why competition shooters use 40 sw
Almost no one in competiton uses 40 S&W. ~Karl
I don't know about anyone else , But I think those rifle targets @ 5 ft or less (and sorta the pistol ones too) are just kinda a waste of ammo.
This was a poorly designed stage. Regardless you both did amazingly well
We did ok, some people did better, a lot of people did worse. ~Karl
Would like to see the door kicker go head to head with another stoner design the 63 or ar18 /180
Wouldn't it be smart to take a more powerfull Pistol Cartridge for this event, like the glock 10mm? Because then the 360 degree Targets would be much easier I think. Greetings from Germany.
i want to see the magpul glock mag meet a hammer :)
Isn't it kind of unsafe to require the shooter to fire on a target point blank backed by rocks? Also kind of pointless - it's not like you're going to miss at that range. Kind of odd choices.
notification squad
It strikes me that throwing a shot a each spinner and then ignoring it while cleaning the rest of the targets probably could have resulted in a time as fast or faster than Karl. Not a good stage design.
Correct. I would have had a better time by "giving up" on the last spinner which, btw, I refused to do so I ate the whole penalty. ~Karl
Glock mags.
Aye. Agree. ~Karl
Almost got my brains blown out because of a glock mag malfunction. Mag somehow flipped a round up. So I went to remove the mag which in turn let the slide rock forward. Handed the gun to my friend who was unaware of the malfunction and my nervous tendency to pace. To make sure the gun was safe he pointed the gun at the ground which happened to be in my direction. He said he couldn't pull the slid back and instinctively "pulled the trigger?" The round bounced up and smacked a tree 2 inches from my think box. Never let him touch my funs ever again. Also no bueno el glockamole.