Trans Rights / Trans Wrongs | with Corinna
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- Опубліковано 6 лис 2024
- Part of an ongoing series: bit.ly/2XzrgIH
Corinna joins me for an hour+ to discuss trans rights, trans radicalism, and why "identity" is, in the end, bullshit. Follow her on Twitter @corinna_cohn
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![The Transgender Revolution with Helen Joyce [S2 Ep.30]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/WDFXPlv-R_s/mqdefault.jpg)
Something I see frequently ignored (here too) is the distinction between transgenderism and gender dysphoria.
Jump to the end to the synopsis if you don't like to read a lot.
Transgenderism is the psychological orientation caused by gendered brain structure being different than body gender.
Gender dysphoria is the severe anxiety caused by identifying differently than ones body.
Transgenderism is not a disorder, it is just a state of being. Gender dysphoria is a disorder in the same way that body integrity disorder or anorexia nervosa are disorders. Gender dysphoria and transgenderism are not linked one to one. There are transgender people who do not have gender dysphoria and non-transgender people (cis-gender?) who do have gender dysphoria. (or anxiety which is misdiagnosed as gender dysphoria)
A lot of the social/societal problems stem from conflating the two. (either in beliefs or as tactics) If somebody believes that gender dysphoria exists but transgenderism doesn't (or is just an ideology rather than a physiological state) then they are going to be in the "trans is a delusion" camp. If somebody believes that transgenderism and gender dysphoria have a one to one relationship then they are likely to think that anybody who exhibits gender dysphoria (or what looks like gender dysphoria) should immediately start transitioning, at the taxpayers' expense, regardless of age. There are countless other combinations of beliefs and performances.
I think that gender dysphoria should be treated with minimally invasive treatment first, by psychological therapy then perhaps pharmacological treatment and, finally, transition therapy by a consenting adult if other treatments do not yield relief.
Special care should be taken not to discount genuine transgenderism, but to treat them as separate issues. The emphasis should be on treating the anxiety, not the identification as the opposite gender from ones body.
Body integrity disorder is sometimes treated by amputation, but only when all other avenues have not yielded relief. With body integrity disorder there is an objectively verifiable reality contrasting the patients belief.
Hopefully some day soon it will be trivial to verify the brain structure of transgender people the same way. Then (with caution) it may become morally acceptable to prescribe transition therapy before the age of consent.
Anorexia (to the best of my knowledge) is never treated by prescription of a low calorie diet.
Synopsis:
Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder.
Transgenderism is a state, which should have no more stigma attached to it than being left handed.
They are not the same thing, although there is obviously a lot of overlap.
Gender dysphoria should be treated first by therapy, then, if necessary, by medication, then transitioning only by a consulting adult.
Transgenderism should not be treated. That would be conversion therapy. (and that's bad, m'kay?)
More research is needed.
Pinned for discussion.
@Content Warning - That will be a great day. No more anorexia, OCD, BID, BDD, hoarding, gambling addiction, non-specific anxiety disorder... The list goes on and on. It may even lead to an end to tribalism.
ROGD is not really Gender Dysphoria as it is generally understood. Most experts believe that is symptomatic of social influence.
Gender Dysphoria is so often conflated with body dysmorphia and while there is a causal link between the two they are not the same thing. I wrote a piece on this about a year ago for a blog site though it is not a clinical piece just observational. rodfleming.com/2018/05/01/gender-identity-disorder-gender-dysphoria/#more-7436 . If anyone is interested in a patients view.
Hey there, can you elaborate on what you mean by gendered brain structure? More specifically I would like to know what you think on the gender/sex distinction.
This has always confused me.
Zach Barbieri . Basically homosexual transsexuals show similar development of certain brain structures, white and grey matter volumes as the opposite sex. Not the same but shifted towards those in the opposite sex group. It is very in depth and far from conclusive. If you have the patience and inclination (be honest who would) there was a comprehensive review of all the reports conducted by Antonio Guiliamon and his team in 2016 link below but be warned it's heavy going . www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4987404/
What a nice person, was a thought that came to me listening to your guest. Good to see someone so young also have such a deep humanity; gives you a little faith in the future. Glad, too, you gave her plenty of time.
Him
Damn, Corinna is effing *formidable.* She's an intellectual triple threat - highly gifted thinker (IQ), impressively well-read/informed, and in possession of insight/wisdom well-beyond most of those three-times her age. People like this don't come along every day - we're lucky she's on our side, Benjamin! Excellent interview as always, thank you for giving her the extra time!
Corinna is a lovely person and any group would be lucky to have her counted as a member.
Corinna comes across as a truly thoughtful and generous individual. I've actually come back to this conversation because the way she articulates her ideas is so refreshing.
1:10:16 "you are sustained completely by the observations of the people around me"
one of Benjamins previous guests said something similar. Something like "Trans people are very insecure and need the validation of people around them".
I believe this is why some activists are very authoritarian. They want to force other people to validate their identity which is a bad idea. My hypothesis is that the more insecure the more radical they are.
Gamestop misgender incident.
Really rich conversation. Thank you. For the record, I have friends who have political ideas that aren't aligned to mine but their hearts are beautiful and we're able to maintain our friendship.
She seems sensible and reasonable, and aware of the dangers associated with pushing transition on those who may not be well suited for it. I personally don't care if people want to be trans or not, I just see it currently being glamorized and pushed on children. Children suffer trials and tribulations, suffering and joy, all manner of things, and to provide them an outlet that involves changing their literal hormonal balance seems reckless and wrong to me. When she described her doctor as a mix of doctor ruth and doctor frankenstien, that is what I'm wary of. Doctors pushing biological change on feeble minds as selfish experimentation.
She? All i see was 2 men talking
@sallygo1234 wow. The most logical comment i have seen in a while. I am not a conservative or a republican.
I will keep it short. Those 2 ppl are men, and the dude on the right in the video needs to accept reality. He will never be a female. Transgenderism is a hoax and is purely a gay agenda tactic
@sallygo1234 "Feminism redefined transexual to 'transgender'" - dude, that was NOT DONE by "feminism" or any kind of FEMINIST thought. "Third wave feminism" is not feminism but a bastardization of the revolutionary movement of the 60's ("the II wave"). Any self-respecting feminist will denounce neoliberal claims that women are oppressed because their gender (which translate to roles of sexed human bodies in societies) but because their sexed bodies.
Gender ideology is not feminism. It's not talking about liberation of females but about "equality" with me and other idiotic ideas. When are people that learned about feminism ON places like social media and never looked further stop propagating this bullshit? @Benjamin A Boyce, do a guest who can explain this to your audience!
@sallygo1234 No it's not, it's everything else except feminism. I do hate antifeminists who know shit about feminism but nevertheless spew bullshit about.
Oh, @sallygo1234 I DIDN'T KNOW YOU MAKE THE RULES ON HOW IT GOES. OH SO SORRY I DIDN'T ASK YOUR PERMISSION TO VOICE MY OPINIONS ON WHAT FEMINISM IS, you fucking troll.
A very worthwhile conversation. Amplifies the voices of trans dissenters. She should make You Tube videos... there's no way I'm returning to the Twitter cesspool.
Wow, Benjamin - you are the embodiment of reasonable and empathetic, in dealing with tricky topics honestly. Thank you so much for holding the beacon you do!
And thank you for introducing us to Corinna. She's the kind of persod I'd be glad to have as a friend.
"Biological sex is anathema to transgender ideology"
This is the key point to the all discussions on "gender".
Absolutely.
Corrina appears very much as he was born. I have a lot of respect for Corrina because he speaks truth with nuance.
It’s been four years since this interview, but still a great conversation and very informational.
This was quite enjoyable. It was refreshing to see some solid conversation. Cheers to the guest for not shying away from questions. The very methodical thought process and answers are rare to see today. I have always wanted to sit down and have some serious dialogue with a transgender person. Thank you scratching that itch (metaphorically) for me.
"trans rights activism" you mean "trans demands activism"
Smart cookie. And a rare trans person who isn't narcissistic.
It's taken me a while to fulfill your request from earlier this spring, but I'm trying to do the issue justice.
FACT: trans and narcissism definitely seem to go hand in hand. That's not a unique critique. Check out the psychological profiles of nearly every famous celebrity.
Well that's more than likely because you're digging for exactly what you want to see and read. You want to see trans persons as narcissistic on the whole and so that's what you look for. It's the same as people who want to see people on the right as racist, there's plenty of extremely racist right-wing people who say (and do) deplorable shit out there. If you surround yourself and purposely go looking for that news, that's all you'll see about it.
The majority of Trans persons are just people living their lives and wanting to keep the fuck out of all this stuff. Most trans people do not want to be seen as trans, they don't want to be involved in the activism, because it exposes them to... fuck, all this shit, man. A lot of them face very real and dangerous reprisals in person, so you better bet your bottom dollar that the majority of trans people are trying to stay silent.
And then there's the portion that is vocal... they're vocal the same reason, the EXACT same reason, that Jordan Peterlings gremlins are vocal. They feel attacked and set upon in their normal life, or that they have no power in real life and everything/everyone is against them... the internet is a vent, it is a place to blow up and get all the shit that fucks you over in real life. That's why everything on the internet is so god damn hyperbolic.
So no, this isn't a "rare" trans person who isn't narcissistic. It's just you being exposed to an ordinary trans person outside your normal news/social/media spheres. Get out there and get the real story for yourself and don't approach it as a salty little shit and you'll find a different story.
@@ErgonomicChair I do not have enough data points to make any real conclusion, but from what I do have, I would agree that most highly visible trans activists seem to differ substantially from the ordinary trans friends and acquaintances I have had. But I'm coming to think that's true of most self-appointed activists of many causes; they tend to come from one end of some bell curve and are often unrepresentative of the majority of folks in the same "identity group". That's not surprising, as being an activist in today's political game is going to be very selective for certain personality traits (I think that may have changed over time, but most activists today have to play the political correctness game, at least on the left). My subjective and possibly mistaken impression, however, is that trans activists may differ more than most activists, from their group averages. Perhaps that is at least in part because many trans folk do just want to blend in, as you say. So they may not appreciate everybody in the room pointedly introducing themselves with their preferred pronouns "to make the trans person among us more comfortable" - that's like highlighting their failure to be seen as they desire to be seen, and virtue signalling. Which does nothing for the trans person.
@@zephsmith3499 as a trans woman if I had to tell people my pronouns I would be upset bwcause if would remind me of my sex and I don't want be reminded of it just to have a conversation. Like if you see me puttibg in the work then you should know and the only one you are doing that for is you so you can prove to everyone else how morally better you are. Its fake compassion because they built a domanince hierarchy on who is the most oppressed and who is the most woke. So it has nothing to actually do with us as people. We are just seen as parts to help the system run not actually allowed to play the game unless you are an activist setting the rules and handing out points for being woke about trans.
Corinna, if you live in western Washington, and care about children who are being "transitioned", please contact the Gender Clinic at Seattle Children's Hospital, and offer them your perspective. Please also contact your legislators and senators with your concerns: Children are being "treated" with puberty blockers, possibly without INFORMED CONSENT. Thank you.
Benjamin is sucha good interviewer. Great listener. Really liked corinna. Would have liked more of a personal interview with why she transitioned and what her experience has been. But perhaps that may not be what she wants to talk about.
I found this online but idk if it's her because of the age ? haha quillette.com/2020/06/22/for-30-years-ive-tried-to-become-a-woman-heres-what-i-learned-along-the-way/?fbclid=IwAR3zXNru-yU8yJzDu4GiK_XDUVAj6B8e-e6MBXk8vymt78pxWti4Zlg04BA
Hi, late to the show, looking for voices with various views on the subject, came here via a reference from the LGB alliance site. So refreshing to hear two adults making a mutually respectful exploration of the topic, gave me chills to hear some of the ramifications of the situation we find ourselves in spoken out loud with such clarity. Many thanks.
What a wonderful interview and what a wonderful person she is. Thank you both.
Rights and responsibilities is a fascinating and under appreciated concept brought to me most lucidly by Peterson and re-affirmed here. Service to society guarantees citizenship.
Benjamin’s articulation regarding activism at around 28.00 is beautifully put! I would have needed this in so many discussions in recent years. Thank you for that. And thank you both for a calm, illuminating and mutually respectful conversation.
I thought this interview was great. It's very heartening to hear an intelligent conversation. :)
A brilliant guest and a great conversation. Thank you.
With regards to beginning transition pre-puberty: I have been told that transwomen (MTF - male to female transition) who begin HRT in childhood have been negatively affected by this therapy.
It was explained to me that a transwoman who has started HRT in childhood cannot always get bottom surgery later on, because the HRT can stunt the growth of the sexual organ she was born with in such a way that the doctors cannot properly construct her vulva later on. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I'm almost certain that I've also been told that a transwoman (male to female) is better served if the sex organ she was born with is not circumcised, as the foreskin is an added benefit for bottom surgery (construction of the vulva).
I had a friend who had vaginoplasty using a skin graft pulled from the inner thigh, (very painful she said!) and, I think, also from penile tissue. Not the same case as you mention above exactly as from what I understand, the doctor went that route just for additional depth. I suppose that would mean that there are other options though they might not be ideal.
Corinna is a lovely person, she is thoughtful. I think it's so important that open conversation like this is so insightful and helpful. Benjamin you are a great interviewer.
Fantastic conversation. It warms my heart that there are people on the left that have a reasonable mind. Hope for humanity?
I'm only 10 minutes in but it's interesting so far. I really enjoy your videos Benjamin!
I finished the interview..
I thought it was great! I'm a conservative but I'm very open minded. I think Corinne (spell check?) was great to listen to. Very insightful... and rare! It's too bad there aren't more people like her engaging with "the other side" here. I wish there was more of her on youtube. If be happy to subscribe to her channel if she had one!
But fuck twitter. I refuse to go on twitter!
Re-watching this years later. Corinna was so right predicting the young girls with ROGD who are now mutilated for life and are de-transitioning. 😢😢
I just watched this for the first time. Hearing corinna say that gave me shivers. Makes me more angry about it. If Corinna, who works in IT, could see the massive problems coming way ahead, why couldn't the "experts"? Or maybe its just that they really don't care about kids at all.
Another brilliant interview Benjamin! You’re killing it!!!
Thanks BP!
Another great and vital conversation. Slowly making my way through Benjamin's videos. Thanks so much to Corinna and Benjamin.
She was trans before it was cool 👉💪🙏
I swear there are more commercials in this video than on cable tv! It's something crazy like every 4.5 minutes that's wild. I hope you're getting some of the money they're making off you
Thanks for notifying me about this. I was unaware.
@@BenjaminABoyce still an INCREDIBLE video. You said it would be worth every second and it absolutely was 🤗 I can't believe you replied 😳🥺
Thanks for watching! I’m glad you found it edifying :)
Corinna you are awesome, smart and funny. I really haven't had the chance to talk about this topic with people but I find your point of view really clicks with my thoughts on the matter. Thanks.
This was a great conversation. Lots of smiling, that was nice x
What a weird Heterodorx episode… first no jingle, and Nina looks and sounds really different somehow…
Another excellent conversation. I enjoy the thought that goes into your questions.
Gorgeous gorgeous conversation. Thank you. ❤
Speech only turns into violence at the act to the call to violence
This is all about money. The numbers of gender clinics and informed consent clinics isn't just about helping trans people its all about making money. Its more profitable for a business (and yes these are not non profits) to have as many customers as possible and rubber stamping is quicker and more profitable than looking at how many customers really need it.
Sadly I think its going to get worse to get better. Its just a matter of time before a large number of detransitioners come forward with abuse and neglect allegations and law suits in hand with terfs and ant-transers screaming "I told you so"
Thank you again Mr Boyce . And thank you to Corinna too.
A very respectfull, nice trans woman!!!
Bravo !! What a healthy perspective really enjoyed Corinna ! I’m a straight white male :) but have always accepted people for who they are. Love to meet people in this world w no expectations,. And go from there. Anywhere in the world , positive energy and kindness goes such a long way. Don’t care what your skin color is or who you sleep with
Farrakhan compared Jews to termites and he's not banned from twitter.
at 41:00 or so she remarks about the lack of interest in the outcome of transition young. She is surprised, however, progressives are progressives first, professionals second. This is always true. However, in this case, it is perhaps the most alarming.
@@HelenTheGiantSlayer As I said, progressive ideology comes first and professionalism second.
Thank you so much for sharing, Corinna!
Wow Corinna is So intelligent & insightful, she Predicted EXACTLY The mass detransition of 16 y/olds in 4 years time - Now - at the Time of this comment. Corinna was Exactly RIGHT. Yr Amazing Corinna!!
Very interesting .Circumspection before Circumcision .Measure twice cut once !
Great interview. This was a really good one!
Thank you, Benjamin
Ok, this code of conduct bullshit is going to ruin the open source community. I absolutely disagree with the premise that open source contributions should be policed. Only quality of code should matter. Personal politics should never factor into open source projects, ever. I don't care if you're marginalized, or privileged, if your code quality is there your patches should be accepted.
This got me to thinking about self-mutilation in general. (Primitive tendency, no?) And, our wacky culture. A new puritan era is upon us and I feel very fortunate to have the luxury of observing from afar. (Thank you, Ben.) I would not have the slightest clue what pronoun to use with this person. Observe, interpret the data, and avoid. Be the gray man (or woman). Note that Corrina lamented the good old days when assimilation was the goal. I miss those days as well.
Visor hats. A reliable sign of insanity. Not kidding.
Thoughtful conversation. Thanks to both of you.
Wow! Corinna Yr Amazing! So Articulate. So careful & precise in Yr wording. I Really appreciate & Respect U, ThankU💜
8:30 Omg, I've dealt with this dilemma.... I toyed with it, and soon realized there was no chance I could ever get any "oppression privilege" from being a gay dissident.
Nobody really gets these benefits; any minority dissident learns this very quickly.. the only way to get victim points is to have at least 3 intersections in your favor. But that really just gives a signal boost when you already are saying what the intersectionals want you to say.
Who is she? I'll follow her on Twitter and anywhere else.
@corinna_cohn
Brilliant conversation!
Thanks
When I went to university of mn human sexuality department in 96 I would have been their youngest patient at 20.
Off topic...I"m doing accuchecks and giving insulin shots to my cat of 14 years right now. Be careful. (By the way, diabetes can be reversed in cats, but not dogs.)
I wonder what percent of conservatives would be opposed to calling a trans man she. I am libertarian/conservative and I don't care. I would call a trans man she. However, She/He is it, period, and I have to see an effort at putting forth that gender. BTW, She seems like she would be fun to hang with.
Those are two men. I am not a conservative. I am a realist. I will never call the man to the right anything other than him and he. Gtfo.
@@GarudaLegends Using "she" doesnt mean you are attracted to her, want to boink her, or anything. It cost you nothing.
There are other factors at play that take decisions about these issues outside the ordinary matrix of balancing audience and open advertiser interests . We should talk about this sometime soon.
"Replace Holidays with Bitchy Days" - hard agree, let's replace Columbus Day with Virtue Signaling Day
Great interview
Love this conversation!
A wake-up, 19:00 min in. Great point!
I work in neuroscience research, I'm extremely interested in trans from a neurological perspective, but there's no way in hell I could ever get through an internal review board and approved for research. Why you may ask? Well I'm not trans, and the explicit purpose of the research would be based in investing biological markers and patterns of activation within the brains of trans people, comparing them to biological males and females. Of course this sounds great, and innocuous and even pro trans, but this automatic outlook sadly comes from not understanding the current state of psychological sciences, and also the extent to which they have been misused in the current social movement. Pretty much there be no chance in getting to do this important research, because no matter The outcome people will be outraged. For years people have been saying that the brains of trans women are more similar to biological women, then they are to biological men. This is not a well supported claim within the literature, and is an oversimplification of the results of a few studies, which did not even themselves claim to have shown particularly strong correlations. So it's possible for their inquiry could completely contradict this popular narrative. However the more insidious point is that even if there was more specific and powerful support for certain brain networks or characteristics to be shared between trans people and the biological sex they identify as, the current gender ideology would likely push back against this, as it is rooted in sex and not gender, and in biology and not identity.
You should interview the rapper Tom Macdonald
A large part of the problem is our expectation of free services and content. Hey, don't get me wrong, I like free stuff, but when platforms are entirely reliant on advertisers then their needs prevail. Running these platforms isn't cheap. If they don't want controversy, or the platform thinks they don't want it, then that's the way it's going to go.
A lot of this uproar was due to the dinosaur media, in particular print news media, that were rapidly losing adverts to social media. They found a few big name youtubers who said or did things that could be easily misconstrued and recontextualised as offensive, and then the adpocalypse occurred. Soon every platform was caving to accusations, and I'm sure there were progressive insider employees on these platforms who helped push this along.
Then Trump was elected... and instead of the progressives relocating to Canada like they promised, they decide to bring Canadian crazytown to Silicon Valley and Madison Avenue.
About the only way our voices will matter to social media is when they see they make a buck out of our wallets and not by our surfing habits.
I gave Jessica a "hairy Benjamin standard" last night. Ha
1:16:03 normally at the end, but I'll take it!
First boom style hehe
This person is trying very hard not to say that transitioning is a bad idea.
Benjamin, I don’t know if it’s the camera or your body but sometimes you appear to have a slight tremor when holding still. Maybe you should get that checked out?
Twitter is a "Timblr" Benjamin
Suicide and mental health is hitting all youth. I'm adjusting to the changes of my child transitioning. It will be a year in Jan and I coined 2018 as the worst year of my life but it may turn into the most enlightened. Perception has changed with technology and the instant connection to the world is creating envy. People don't realize that it's a zero-sum game and evolutionary processes are kicking in depending on the motive. If it's a transgender, naturally, livelihood is a threat, but add the whole left, media and government, then the mother protecting her child trumps. It's not that there is no empathy, it's just irrelevant. Just as it is for the other side. There's no changing anybody's mind unless their is genuine conversation addressing the concerns on both sides. My child and I have agreed to an understanding that works for both of us and it's much better now.
It would be interesting if you spoke with ShoeOnHead about terfs.
Why am I strangely attracted to this weird shit?
It's kind of like a train wreck. You got to slow down and have a look even though it's Carnage. Maybe especially because it's Carnage.
Dead naming has got something to do with pronouns. But it's really all about calling someone their pre- transition name for example, Benjamin it may be Susan Boyce!s
"Advertisers don't want to advertise on platforms where there's controversy or hatred". Big surprise! What's wrong with not wanting hatred and encouraging respectful discussion? Any publicly available service will want to do this as hate speech and harassment is not usually legal. Deliberate misgendering is harassment. You can also just refer to someone by their last name or use 'they'.
Seriously, you're a victim. If somebody uses the name that you were born with and lived with for a good chunk of your life, you then changed your name and then somehow using that name of this dead naming thing is insane. Whether or not they intend to fence by, it is irrelevant for that to be policed is just idiotic for people to imagine that they're victims because somebody's using the wrong name to address them. I mean we need to get serious. This is ridiculous
1:03:40 interesting
been binge watching your channel BB. Wish I had seen this great Evergreen insider reporting months ago. Anyway, as you decide where to take your channel I suggest you not thread right-leaning hot button political issues that many other channels are covering (Rubin, etc). How about sticking to the niche of campus-activism-run-amok expose'? I'm sure you've probably contacted Peter Boghossian down the road at Portland State to interview him. How about covering that situation? It appears some faculty there are organizing against him (possibly to remove him?).
Nice try Ric Vegas . I'm sure many others will try other tactics to keep " Boyce of Reason " and his inconvenient nuance and curiosity away from the kiddy castration industry and related activism.
How can you tell a person not to use an inoffebsive word like 'privilege'? How can using that word engender abuse? Can you imagine any notable journalist telling their interviewee what inoffensive words they can't use? Corinna wasn't even antagonistic in using it yet you still took offense. Ew. Something about you rubs me the wrong way and it's not solely this video as I've watched more than a few of your videis before this one and there's just something sneaky and not quite right about you.
Z
no
Btw anyone else see the resemblance to the redhead columbine shooter? Not trying to assume anything there just a resemblance nothing else.
Dylan Klebold
great interview