Yes. Also if it's hidden and there is shame and then complex emotions around it that's when it becomes problematic. It's why im cautious of demonising it.
@@bkilg2509 We live in a society where this sexual fetish is normalised to the point of offering "gender transitions" as a solution to normal discomfort adolescent girls have with puberty. I think the discomfort of sexually deviant men really shouldn't be our chief concern at the moment. Rather, we should be elevating normal sexual behaviour as being the preferred behaviour, not celebrating the obviously dysfunctional. We aren't suffering from an excess of well adjusted, child rearing couples. Quite the opposite.
Louise, you are doing such a great job with this channel - such interesting guests and thought-provoking and informative discussions. This was fascinating - thank you to you and to Prof Bailey for his courage to speak about this issue amid all the attempts to try silence and cancel him.
Regarding Jazz Jennings: “…numerous medical issues associated with transition…” Or, put another way… he is suffering *complications* from surgery *his mother* elected for him to undergo. And yes, I’m using the male pronouns on purpose to make my point.
More premium content from this channel. Loving it so much. I read The Man Who Would be Queen many years ago. The controversy surrounding it at the time made it a little hard to find, but I knew it must be good if the rabid TA fringe were so hostile to it. It really clarified so much for me as an older woman trying to make sense of this issue in the 21st century. Great to see him continuing with his work and refusing to be cowed.
I think a lot of that just comes from seeing someone continually dressed as a woman and using a woman's name. Plenty of people call Caitlyn Jenner a woman or refer to him as "she" just because Caitlyn Jenner is almost like a character. It's almost like Dame Edna Everage. That's how I see it anyway.
it's pure and well done respect for the transGender aspect - there is a line between sex and gender. but doing and living for a better life the other gender -with or without transition; with or without "choice" - doesn't forbid requesting to be called by the g e n d e r you prefer to be (identified) with. language is rooted in differentiation and is arbitrary. it is not the objective garantuee or last nail for being named in your genderdoing in analogy to one's substantial biological sex. and for the better: so there is no need or urge to exemplify and legitimate your lived gender by physical interventions... only the extreme quasireligious transactivism and their catholic/evangelical or whatsoever counterparts do believe in a substantialized character of language... but the gap will never close and never be closed between doing gender and having a binary coded genetical heir of one of the both sexes (sometimes genetic goes "wild")... more respect, less identification with the not only relevant core sex - that demands no big effort for the majority of heterosexual gendered human beings
@@patrickdoherty4527 Apparently it is scientifically true that men are more visual and if they see breasts, a dress, wig, lipstick they see woman whereas women have been shown to clock female impersonators quicker than men--it's evolution--women need to be able to clock males.
I massively preferred the interview with Helen Joyce over this one. I cringed a bit when he mentioned that the homosexual transsexual is innate and already behaves like girls. Helen talked about male variation and how these boys actually just behave in "sissy" ways and prefer whatever the other sex is into But they're still very different from natal girls and don't really behave like girls
Agreed. They behave like effeminate boys who might grow up to be homosexual men. To say that they behave like girls is only true in the most superficial sense.
"back when he was a man" yeah he's still a man... No amount of surgery hormones or fashion can turn a man into a woman. The idea that a man with a fetish can just declare himself to be a woman is insulting and offensive.
Perhaps "back when he *identified* as a man" is language that both sides could agree on. Because agreement on language is important - if you never agree on language it will stop progress being made on the actual substantive issues at stake.
I'm also so perplexed by the sloppy language Bailey used at times here, talking about "changing sex" - I really wish we would stop misusing the word. "A male who started presenting as a woman" would be accurate.
Yes it is. Men can't 'identify' into womanhood. Women don't 'identify' as women--they are women. Just as LGBs don't 'identify as LGB--they are LGB--it is sex-based just as being a woman is sex-based. Historically women were not denied rights b/c they 'identified' as women but b/c they were women.
But that doesn't mean some men can just hijack language for their own interests while casually erasing women as a sex class -- which is they're trying very hard to do.
Some of these men want to appropriate womanhood itself including all of the rights and opportunities women have fought so long and so hard for. No man regardless of his paraphilias/fetishes, should take away scholarships or awards or places on boards or in sports or in many other situations that go beyond keeping them out of bathrooms, changing rooms, and women's prisons, etc. They are men and do not understand or know what it is to be a woman. Historically women were not denied rights b/c they 'identified' as women but b/c they were women. Men already have rights as men---they don't get to appropriate women's rights and opportunities as well. And they need to stay in their own sex-class and deal w/ their problems and not force them on women to deal with. Women are not supporting actors in their paraphilia/fetish play on the public stage--women are not their problem-solvers or accommodaters and women say NO.
AGPs are narcissists. Blanchard says their misogyny comes from narcissism, rather than from systemic patriarchy. So for men to whom noone matters except thrmselves, why would they care about the threats they pose to a range of women's sex-based rights? It's all the trans allies, male and especially female, whose apparently unreflective support of ego-driven trans-identified males bothers me much more. This is where systemic patriarchy seems to be asserting its age-old misogyny.
I was sexually abused and will save the details. It led up to crossdressing since it was imprinted early on. I'm trying to get rid of it though. It's not fair to say people appropriate it when my very abuser was a woman.
Fascinating stuff! I think the information about AGP needs to spread in the public consciousness in order to balance the weaponisation of the "just be kind" attitude towards women-only spaces vs men-wearing-woman-costume. I would not wish for the pendulum to swing from one extreme to the other, but I think it is currently "a jump to the Left" too far. Geddit? That's a Rocky Horror Show reference! 😝
In the Gender:A Wider Lense podcast, Paul Vasey said he saw no evidence of widespread autogynephilia in Samoa. If AGP is innate, wouldn’t you see it cross culturally? You don’t think something about western cultures is driving it at such a higher rate? I can imagine a theory that says there are autogynephiles in Samoa, but they have no way to publicly express it. If they were to try to present as female, everyone would just assume they are fa’afafine. So the point is destroyed. In western countries the spread of gender ideology has given cover for more males with autpgynephilia to transition and live out the fantasy. I would like to hear someone who knows a lot about this give their best theories. Is AGP more prevalent in western countries, and if so, why?
I imagine there's research showing that eating disorders among young women are much higher in countries with high rates of internet usage (particularly social media). I guess it goes without saying. Surely the same could be true with autogynephilia.
@@patrickdoherty4527 yes, it’s understood the mimetic nature of mental illnesses exacerbated by internet and social media. I definitely think that plays a part in the amount of males with AGP transitioning now. However, unlike anorexia, Bailey posits in this interview that AGP is innate in the same way that homosexuality is innate. I’m questioning how true that is. It seems more plausible to me that the likelihood of developing a paraphilia of some kind is innate, but the actual development is culturally dependent.
AGP is totally porn driven. Sissy porn, crossdressing as a form of humilaition and masochism.... If you look at how the AGPs themselves indulge in their fetish, they wear hyper feminine porny lingerie, pink school girl dresses, lolita dresses, big lips, big frills, high heels. All very culturally specific artefacts that exist within a culture that has already developed the image of the fetishised female - the Barbarella, the Marilyn Monroe, Elvira, strippers, etc.
Males throughout most of the animal kingdom are more promiscuous since they can mate with multiple partners and don't have the same investment into producing and raising the offspring. It's not surprising that their greater libido could lead to more interest in variation, especially combined with human intelligence, which can cause boredom with the same thing all the time. TL:DR They're really horny.
Interesting question Kate. As others have mentioned, I'm not sure we know for sure that paraphilias are more frequent in men. Certainly many women appear comfortable with a same sex encounter (for example). That said, men do appear to exhibit greater susceptibility to more extreme paraphilias - both in terms of "distance" from opposite-sex attraction and the "fervour" with which those attractions are held/expressed (maybe expression is the testosterone-drive issue). Seems tangentially related to the greater variance in men generally - the "same mean but wider distribution" phenomenon that sometimes crops up in discussion about other psychological traits.
Fascinating discussion. I know Prof Mike's work but never come across your (Louise Perry's) vlogs before although your name is familiar to me somehow. I'm very minded to subscribe but first must get some sleep (it's 1:43 a.m. in UK and I'd not intended to stay up so late, but I was hooked by this). By the way, I'm retired NHS psychiatrist. Probably see you in the extended version which will also be enlightening. I know Dr James Cantor's work quite well also.
This is being driven by some sections of society. Who pays for all the drag queen story hours, all the pride parades and pride flags. Seems academics who pontificate in these 'studies' fields never seem short of funds for their 'research! Who is funding it all and why?
I can't really see any financial lobbying interests here - how could this advocacy be leveraged for profit? So the most obvious explanation is that whoever is funding this is doing so philanthropically, because they believe it is good for society. Sometimes people disagree with us in good faith.
I believe there a multiple and varied motivations at play, and imagining some kind of nefarious puppet master controlling it all behind the scenes is pure delusion. Nevertheless, I recommend this UA-cam video: Jennifer Bilek: Who Is Behind The TRANS AGENDA?
Very interesting, but one or two of his comments seem remarkably stereotyping, e.g. suggesting that all gay men are more feminine than heterosexuals, and that liking musicals is a feminine, i.e. gay thing! Which makes me wonder how unbiased his research otherwise might be.
I don't think either of them would suggest that *all* gay men are effeminate. But it's surely the case that the *average* gay man is more effeminate than the average straight man.
It was 1960.I was 5 years old, an only child and had just started school. I fell in love with a girl, pulled her into the boys toilets and gave her a kiss. The next thing I remember was being stripped, spanked, dressed in girls clothes, put on the school stage and all the other kids were brought in to laugh at me. Not knowing of any difference between the sexes other than clothes my 5 year old brain saw it as a real and permanent sex change. I blocked the incident out of my mind until I was 13. Then suddenly I realised that I was a woman. It both turned me on and filled me with rage and shame. For a long time I thought that this was the cause of my gender dysphoria but never meeting any other trans person who had been through a similar experience caused me to change my mind, especially when I found that I had Mild Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome in my 50s. Nature AND Nurture covered. Yippee! (Not) 18:00
Jenny graves, a world renowned Australian geneticist claims to have found male homosexual genes, she calls them male loving genes. She calls them that because because the women they’re related to have the same genes, mothers/sisters/aunts etc and in those women the genes correlate with them marrying younger and having more children. It’s an interesting finding.
Until recently this subject was so underground it was only spoken of publicly on anonymous imageboards and the like. It does seem to be bubbling to the surface now though.
*I disagree about Jazz Jennings.* I think it's clear as day that Jazz is the *'munchausen by proxy'* type (also known as someone who would have completely grown out of it and been a normal hetero man if not for their mother) *Jazz has recently been dating women* and discussing how unhappy they are with their body and according to their mother, Jazz has been refusing to continue with interventions to maintain their surgeries transition.
I don‘t dismiss Blanchard‘s typology entirely but I think that thing shouldn’t be conflated. And here is why. There maybe a distinction between transference phenomena, self mirroring transference phenomena, and transference phenomena plus sexual reaction. Theoretically this differentiation might even be able to be made via a pupil dilation tests, mirror neuron tests (brain scans), and penile reaction tests. In other words if a subject exhibited no pupil dilation to their mirror image, pupil dilation as a cross dressed person, but no sexual reaction, you could differentiate between a sexual response from a mirror transference response. I also think this has to do what Heinz Kohut called self object creation. Many people have normal transference reactions. A question would be what is their mirrored self, does that create a pleasing transference or not. It’s possible that subjects are not getting a sexual response they are getting a self transference experience which gives them affirmative sense of self. We know transference is not the same as sex. It needs to be differentiated. And there maybe underlying co-morbidity for example Kate Bornstein has Borderline Personality Disorder. A self-transference may give a positive feedback loop of a previous dissociated personality, or early childhood fragment that satisfies disrupted mirror development. A lot more needs to be investigated to make this a robust theory. Otherwise there is the risk of pathologizing normal transference responses. The other issue is autogynephelia sounds suspiciously similar to the observations of Carl Jung. If this is the case they are identifying with their own anima. Although Jung’s work is more difficult to falsify, but a conversation with Jungians who understand this might be good to understand correlation of theories, Because Jung theorized that ALL men have anima, and if this is the case you may end up pathologizing all Men who exhibit any feminine behavior especially in later life. 7:16
When he mentioned that there was evidence of an association between AGP & masochism bc of the crossover with ppl who practice auto asphyxiation that rang true. However, after reading some feminist books which describes AGP as a masochist fetish practiced by men who get a sexual thrill from identifying with the inferior/submissive/feminine human, I’m surprised this wasn’t mentioned by him. There’s plenty of written & visual evidence of this imo.
The "why homosexuality" question has always seemed a little misguided. The fact is that attraction doesnt matter very much for reproduction. In the majority of our species history, one would reproduce with who was available (maybe 2-3 fertile women around in a group of 70). The idea that one's body doesn't work with the opposite sex if you're what we call "gay" (persistent, predominate, same-sex attraction) is pretty silly. Mormons (and other strict religions) have same sex attracted people who are pressured into having reproductive sex regularly. If attraction has little to no impact on actual historical reproduction capacity, why is anyone bothered to ask "why gays"?
I don’t believe it’s necessary to identify your comment as a comment. The fact that it appears in the comments section indicates that it’s a comment, without additional comment. Also the fact that it’s a comment indicates that it’s a comment, without additional comment. Lol
All of them haven't updated their stuff since the 90's. With the rise of the Internet and the porn industry on the phones of men, more homosexual men have autogynephilic personalities than these guys proposed. The error in their judgment is in themselves going after their confirmation bias about homosexual men.
Spot on. There are "gay" hook up apps (sister sites and off shoots to swinging sites) where the autogynophiles predominate. Algorithms select the most popular/viewed images which are more often not images one associates with appeal to gay men (i.e. masculine) but are of men heavily made-up to resemble women with fake breasts and wigs. Either the level of interest in this has rocketed or been exposed to view by phone apps. Paraphilias proliferate in gay male networks to the extent that they fuel the development of porn genres and 'identities' begin to coalesce around them. I was told by a group of gay men quite earnestly that 'kink' should be included on the pride flag (or rainborg as I call it) and that those identifying as 'kink' were an oppressed minority.
I have a hard time believing that the causes of autogynephilia are "poorly understood". The idea that a sex researcher would investigate this group of men without asking them for their family history narrative is ridiculous. And the idea that there are no patterns to be observed in those histories is also hard to believe. Much more likely is that the causes were extremely difficult to confront and discuss, because it would have involved talking about the ways in which these men were abused and neglected by the people who raised them. I'm guessing that Blanchard et al decided that for the sake of maintaining an open rapport with the men they were researching, which was utterly essential to their work, they avoided any hint of curiosity about cause, or pretended that the causes were unfathomable, when in reality the patterns were plain to see to anyone unwilling to look away. It is very, very difficult for most people to engage in anything that might be construed as judging other people's parents in their presence, and similarly difficult to be the one hearing your parents being judged. So what are the causes. Well, it obviously starts with their relationship with their mother. Anyone who knows people can figure that much out. And it involves the way they identified with their mother, since AGP is about identity. AGP is a strong compulsion, so there were strong forces involved. Puberty is a strong force, but whatever else heterosexual AGPs share had to have been strong enough to interfere with the typical pubertal development of object of sexual desire. AGPs want to imagine themselves as women, so I would guess that they were 1) Obsessed with/fawned upon by their mothers, 2) Fairly strict gender role enforcement in the family; 3) Narcissist mothers who placed great value on their female beauty and their sons knew it; 4) Pre-internet, sons likely engaged in voyeurism of their mother's sex life, now more likely just early porn addiction; 5) Probably no daughters/sisters in the picture for the son to emulate and the mother to shift focus to, leading to 6) Mothers disappointed in their sons for not being beautiful girls and future beautiful women like themselves, and their sons knew it; and 7) The mothers had some pedophilic tendencies, and allowed some measure of sexual tension to develop in the relationship with the growing boy, possibly going as far as sexual abuse. We can't know what Blanchard et al observed but didn't report on, but there is a source of informal qualitative data available: the parents of trans young people, the ones who think their kids are making a horrible mistake and whose relationship histories with their kids are fresh on their minds, and whom regularly engage in cathartic disclosure in online discussion groups. Many of their kids are AGP young men. The histories are there for the reading. Incomplete yes, lacking in self-awareness very much so, but occasionally very illuminating nonetheless. The narcissism and some of the mother-son dynamics come through clearly. Let the flaming commence!
I tried to research the feminine counterpart to autogynephilia but the closest I could find was "penis envy." How is THAT for female fetish validation. I checked out autopenophilia but that means being in love with one's own penis. Anyone else see the trend?
i remember years ago finding out that most transvestite men were actually straight, it was a turn on for them. I remember a feminist who claimed that at the root of all gay drag queenery was misogyny.
That's very charitable of you. Someone more cynical (like me) might suggest that Eddie is merely opportunistically jumping on the "Transgender" bandwagon after self-identifying as "Transvestite" for the previous 20 years. Imagine two arguments for Eddie being in the Ladies toilets: a) I'm a woman trapped in a man's body b) I get turned on by the thought of myself as a woman. Which one is going to garner the most sympathy?
Eddie Izzard has always claimed "full clothing rights". I always enjoyed (& thought he enjoyed) bizarre combinations of eg men's suits with stiletto heel shoes; bright red lipstick plus beard. Now he's gone 100% to women's clothes it's just boring. Though still bizarre.
Regarding the fafafine uncle study - how can a modern society be usefully studied for an evolutionary biology study…?? In no way are we currently under the evolutionary stressors (predators, warring tribes, etc.) of ancient times that would have selected for this trait, nor are we organized in the same social structures… so how can we even try and study the same trait and its effectiveness in that way? How did neither of you call out this simple fallacy of the study..?
I think that male homosexuality and AGP do have an evolutionary advantage if you take into account group dynamics. Homosexuality is often found in social animals and it seems to ease the power struggle between alpha males and lets nesting females profit from a phenotypical male that can protect them but not compete with the alpha.
I've read somewhere it happens when there's an imbalance between males and females. Too many males trigger epigenetics configurations that wire up their brains to be attracted to males and/or pose and behave like females. This happens in the early teen years, not in childhood.
Western culture doesn't have any kind of gender grey areas that are commonplace in non white cultures. If we had preserved those, we would have fewer people trying so hard to conform to harsh gender ideals and more fluidity. It would be easier to be trans if we had some built in gender fluid roles, but we don't. And people suffer.
I've thought a lot about this with respect to highly masculine gay men; i.e., gay men who flawlessly emulate stereotypically masculine traits. Can a biological male with same sex attraction be aroused at the prospect of creating the ideal object of his attraction in himself? Such as by highly investing in masculine endeavors----i.e., "bro culture"----to the point of maybe being obnoxiously male-centric? To be aroused or at least exhilarated by hearing others say "no way in hell you're gay!!" I even coined the term "autoandrophilla" following Bailey's paradigm.
But that is his own masculinity, his own maleness that is real, even if he enjoying emphasising it. Would you say the same applies to feminine lesbians?
I have never encountered that from feminine lesbians before, but I have heard on several occasions from lesbian and bi women that they find the experience of being desired by men whilst knowing that they are more attracted to another woman as being supremely gratifying to then. It's also a very common theme in lesbian erotica. I don't care about the erotica, but I must admit that it is unsettling to hear in person, especially since I have never ventured to ask for this information. People say weird things when they drink.
Yes, I know a gay man who is turned on by his appearance as a man, and I personally know a woman who is aroused by dressing as a man, so the phenomenon occurs in atypical populations.
How can he not have researched sissy porn, even a little? Other sexologists and detransitioners talk about both its increasing ubiquity and addictive power to pull boys and men into autogynephilia. Surprised.
He did mention sissy porn: with "enforced feminisation" of men by attractive & dominant women, as being especially attractive to AGPs due to its sado-masochistic natiure.
I don't believe it at all. Just like I don't believe child porn causes people to be pedophiles. Pedophiles create and make child porn, and then watch it.
Bailey refers to transexuals as the pronoun 'she' when they are males, and transexualism as a sexual orientation when he says its innate, the old born this way. Maybe he should focus a bit more on nuture and not only nature.
The Man Who Would Be Queen: The Science of Gender-Bending and Transsexualism - Is this Book going to be republished, the only copies available are going for $100 plus!
@Julie Booooo. She's wonderful. She can probably bench more than me. And she's got babies to raise. Give her all your money. I would, but I've got three babies of my own.
You're not going to read this. Someone might someday. What you are talking about. Autogynephellia and homosexuality ARE means of adaptation. Severe isolation, being molested as a child. Being torture.
Thanks for the interview. But it would've been fifteen minutes long if only the guest didn't have a severe brain freeze after every... single....... word................ ..... .........
No, because in order to debunk the two-type theory, trans activists claim that females have autogynephilia, and therefore trans women who are autogynephilic are just like natal females. Look up Serano’s paper. So the new study debunks the idea that natal women are autogynephilic like autogynephilic men. Autoandrophilia is a separate issue and so rare as to be harder to compare to autogynephilia, and many suspect the motivations are different anyway.
"Physically petite." "Petiteness isn't part of the syndrome." NEITHER OF THESE TWO PEOPLE SOUNDS SANE. This woman literally thinks that short or small stature is a "tell" for homosexuality. Good Lord. Also, being gay is not a "syndrome." It's a "perversion." Also, there are no gay women....only women who have been hurt by men and just give up. Nobody (and I mean NOBODY) is "born gay." There are people who let their minds wander to a particular perversion. That's it.
@cw4091 They were referring to MtF homosexual transexuals that often fit a more feminine physicality. I understood when she said petite to mean more slender body frame rather than short
Wow. I remember reading the Man Who Would be Queen at the public library when I was 15 before I even knew I wanted to transition. I’m a female to “male” or living as closely to resembling a male as possible and this totally makes sense why there’s been an explosion in a different type of trans population the last few years. I’m the homosexual transsexual type but a lot of the non-binary trans folk I believe fit the autogynephillic or autoandrophillic category. Fascinating thank you Dr. Bailey for continuing this work despite the backlash from parts of my community.
Never underestimate how far a man will go for his fetish.
Yes. Also if it's hidden and there is shame and then complex emotions around it that's when it becomes problematic. It's why im cautious of demonising it.
It’s all about the “peen feels” like one of my favorite UA-camr says.
@@anarodriguez6601 is she still banned or has she been allowed back?
@@bkilg2509 We live in a society where this sexual fetish is normalised to the point of offering "gender transitions" as a solution to normal discomfort adolescent girls have with puberty. I think the discomfort of sexually deviant men really shouldn't be our chief concern at the moment. Rather, we should be elevating normal sexual behaviour as being the preferred behaviour, not celebrating the obviously dysfunctional. We aren't suffering from an excess of well adjusted, child rearing couples. Quite the opposite.
Why would a man remove his dick if he gynophile (attracted to women)?
Louise, you are doing such a great job with this channel - such interesting guests and thought-provoking and informative discussions. This was fascinating - thank you to you and to Prof Bailey for his courage to speak about this issue amid all the attempts to try silence and cancel him.
Huge respect to Prof Bailey for showing courage and intellectual honesty like a true critical thinking scientist.
Regarding Jazz Jennings:
“…numerous medical issues associated with transition…”
Or, put another way… he is suffering *complications* from surgery *his mother* elected for him to undergo.
And yes, I’m using the male pronouns on purpose to make my point.
Good on you. We have to stop using their language--their pronouns--they are males, he/him, stop the continued gaslighting. Men are not women fullstop.
From medically unnecessary surgeries
@@jayjaydubful yes, that was implicit in my use of the word “elected.”
And he is obese and miserable, apparently addicted to comfort-eating junk food. Next step on that path is type 2 diabetes.
More premium content from this channel. Loving it so much. I read The Man Who Would be Queen many years ago. The controversy surrounding it at the time made it a little hard to find, but I knew it must be good if the rabid TA fringe were so hostile to it. It really clarified so much for me as an older woman trying to make sense of this issue in the 21st century. Great to see him continuing with his work and refusing to be cowed.
And yet he still calls these men "she", even when talking about how they tried to destroy him.
I think a lot of that just comes from seeing someone continually dressed as a woman and using a woman's name. Plenty of people call Caitlyn Jenner a woman or refer to him as "she" just because Caitlyn Jenner is almost like a character. It's almost like Dame Edna Everage. That's how I see it anyway.
it's pure and well done respect for the transGender aspect - there is a line between sex and gender. but doing and living for a better life the other gender -with or without transition; with or without "choice" - doesn't forbid requesting to be called by the g e n d e r you prefer to be (identified) with. language is rooted in differentiation and is arbitrary. it is not the objective garantuee or last nail for being named in your genderdoing in analogy to one's substantial biological sex.
and for the better: so there is no need or urge to exemplify and legitimate your lived gender by physical interventions...
only the extreme quasireligious transactivism and their catholic/evangelical or whatsoever counterparts do believe in a substantialized character of language... but the gap will never close and never be closed between doing gender and having a binary coded genetical heir of one of the both sexes (sometimes genetic goes "wild")...
more respect, less identification with the not only relevant core sex - that demands no big effort for the majority of heterosexual gendered human beings
@@patrickdoherty4527 Apparently it is scientifically true that men are more visual and if they see breasts, a dress, wig, lipstick they see woman whereas women have been shown to clock female impersonators quicker than men--it's evolution--women need to be able to clock males.
@@patrickdoherty4527 If all it takes is for a man to dress as a woman for you to see them as one you must be pretty confused yourself.
@@goshane23we are wired for seeking patterns.
I massively preferred the interview with Helen Joyce over this one.
I cringed a bit when he mentioned that the homosexual transsexual is innate and already behaves like girls.
Helen talked about male variation and how these boys actually just behave in "sissy" ways and prefer whatever the other sex is into
But they're still very different from natal girls and don't really behave like girls
yeah
Excellent point and I agree
Agreed. They behave like effeminate boys who might grow up to be homosexual men. To say that they behave like girls is only true in the most superficial sense.
That’s right. You’re inclination is to compare an effeminate gay man to women but I’ve never met a woman who behaved like an effeminate gay man.
Exactly. What does a behaving like girls mean? a girl who doesn’t like girly things is still a girl.
Thank you, Michael Bailey for your courage and scholarship.
"back when he was a man" yeah he's still a man... No amount of surgery hormones or fashion can turn a man into a woman. The idea that a man with a fetish can just declare himself to be a woman is insulting and offensive.
Perhaps "back when he *identified* as a man" is language that both sides could agree on.
Because agreement on language is important - if you never agree on language it will stop progress being made on the actual substantive issues at stake.
100 % agree
I'm also so perplexed by the sloppy language Bailey used at times here, talking about "changing sex" - I really wish we would stop misusing the word. "A male who started presenting as a woman" would be accurate.
Yes it is. Men can't 'identify' into womanhood. Women don't 'identify' as women--they are women. Just as LGBs don't 'identify as LGB--they are LGB--it is sex-based just as being a woman is sex-based. Historically women were not denied rights b/c they 'identified' as women but b/c they were women.
But that doesn't mean some men can just hijack language for their own interests while casually erasing women as a sex class -- which is they're trying very hard to do.
MMM is quickly becoming my favourite podcast.
I identify as Asexual and I know exactly what is going on and this Professor summed it up very precisely. Everything he said was true.
Some of these men want to appropriate womanhood itself including all of the rights and opportunities women have fought so long and so hard for. No man regardless of his paraphilias/fetishes, should take away scholarships or awards or places on boards or in sports or in many other situations that go beyond keeping them out of bathrooms, changing rooms, and women's prisons, etc. They are men and do not understand or know what it is to be a woman. Historically women were not denied rights b/c they 'identified' as women but b/c they were women. Men already have rights as men---they don't get to appropriate women's rights and opportunities as well. And they need to stay in their own sex-class and deal w/ their problems and not force them on women to deal with. Women are not supporting actors in their paraphilia/fetish play on the public stage--women are not their problem-solvers or accommodaters and women say NO.
AGPs are narcissists. Blanchard says their misogyny comes from narcissism, rather than from systemic patriarchy. So for men to whom noone matters except thrmselves, why would they care about the threats they pose to a range of women's sex-based rights?
It's all the trans allies, male and especially female, whose apparently unreflective support of ego-driven trans-identified males bothers me much more. This is where systemic patriarchy seems to be asserting its age-old misogyny.
I was sexually abused and will save the details. It led up to crossdressing since it was imprinted early on. I'm trying to get rid of it though. It's not fair to say people appropriate it when my very abuser was a woman.
Fascinating stuff! I think the information about AGP needs to spread in the public consciousness in order to balance the weaponisation of the "just be kind" attitude towards women-only spaces vs men-wearing-woman-costume. I would not wish for the pendulum to swing from one extreme to the other, but I think it is currently "a jump to the Left" too far. Geddit? That's a Rocky Horror Show reference! 😝
Their intrusiveness and appropriation goes well beyond women-only spaces and women say NO.
I love this channel so much!! 👏🏻
It's great, isn't it!
Women might be vain and like to see themselves as beautiful and attractive (and so do men), but aren't sexually aroused by themselves.
how do you know that?
I'm a woman and never experienced arousal to myself
@@birdbuns That doesn't mean others haven't. Some have.
In the Gender:A Wider Lense podcast, Paul Vasey said he saw no evidence of widespread autogynephilia in Samoa. If AGP is innate, wouldn’t you see it cross culturally? You don’t think something about western cultures is driving it at such a higher rate?
I can imagine a theory that says there are autogynephiles in Samoa, but they have no way to publicly express it. If they were to try to present as female, everyone would just assume they are fa’afafine. So the point is destroyed. In western countries the spread of gender ideology has given cover for more males with autpgynephilia to transition and live out the fantasy.
I would like to hear someone who knows a lot about this give their best theories. Is AGP more prevalent in western countries, and if so, why?
I imagine there's research showing that eating disorders among young women are much higher in countries with high rates of internet usage (particularly social media). I guess it goes without saying. Surely the same could be true with autogynephilia.
@@patrickdoherty4527 yes, it’s understood the mimetic nature of mental illnesses exacerbated by internet and social media. I definitely think that plays a part in the amount of males with AGP transitioning now. However, unlike anorexia, Bailey posits in this interview that AGP is innate in the same way that homosexuality is innate. I’m questioning how true that is. It seems more plausible to me that the likelihood of developing a paraphilia of some kind is innate, but the actual development is culturally dependent.
AGP is totally porn driven. Sissy porn, crossdressing as a form of humilaition and masochism.... If you look at how the AGPs themselves indulge in their fetish, they wear hyper feminine porny lingerie, pink school girl dresses, lolita dresses, big lips, big frills, high heels. All very culturally specific artefacts that exist within a culture that has already developed the image of the fetishised female - the Barbarella, the Marilyn Monroe, Elvira, strippers, etc.
West encourages sociopaths to shine, creating a dangerous world for all of us
@@hannan5781 I don't buy that it's innate.
Fascinating! I would love to know what it is about men's sexuality that gives them more perversions than women.
Males throughout most of the animal kingdom are more promiscuous since they can mate with multiple partners and don't have the same investment into producing and raising the offspring.
It's not surprising that their greater libido could lead to more interest in variation, especially combined with human intelligence, which can cause boredom with the same thing all the time.
TL:DR They're really horny.
That's not true. Women have just as many
I believe it is because their sex drive is so much stronger than ours - ours depends on testosterone, too, we just have so much less of it.
How do we know men have more than women?
Interesting question Kate. As others have mentioned, I'm not sure we know for sure that paraphilias are more frequent in men. Certainly many women appear comfortable with a same sex encounter (for example). That said, men do appear to exhibit greater susceptibility to more extreme paraphilias - both in terms of "distance" from opposite-sex attraction and the "fervour" with which those attractions are held/expressed (maybe expression is the testosterone-drive issue). Seems tangentially related to the greater variance in men generally - the "same mean but wider distribution" phenomenon that sometimes crops up in discussion about other psychological traits.
Fascinating discussion. I know Prof Mike's work but never come across your (Louise Perry's) vlogs before although your name is familiar to me somehow. I'm very minded to subscribe but first must get some sleep (it's 1:43 a.m. in UK and I'd not intended to stay up so late, but I was hooked by this). By the way, I'm retired NHS psychiatrist. Probably see you in the extended version which will also be enlightening. I know Dr James Cantor's work quite well also.
This is being driven by some sections of society. Who pays for all the drag queen story hours, all the pride parades and pride flags. Seems academics who pontificate in these 'studies' fields never seem short of funds for their 'research! Who is funding it all and why?
I can't really see any financial lobbying interests here - how could this advocacy be leveraged for profit? So the most obvious explanation is that whoever is funding this is doing so philanthropically, because they believe it is good for society.
Sometimes people disagree with us in good faith.
I believe there a multiple and varied motivations at play, and imagining some kind of nefarious puppet master controlling it all behind the scenes is pure delusion. Nevertheless, I recommend this UA-cam video: Jennifer Bilek: Who Is Behind The TRANS AGENDA?
Yep being pushed by a world collective to ensure world order
Look up Jennifer Bilek, she investigates this
@@jayjaydubful agree completely just listened today and now sharing sharing sharing x
Very interesting, but one or two of his comments seem remarkably stereotyping, e.g. suggesting that all gay men are more feminine than heterosexuals, and that liking musicals is a feminine, i.e. gay thing! Which makes me wonder how unbiased his research otherwise might be.
I don't think either of them would suggest that *all* gay men are effeminate. But it's surely the case that the *average* gay man is more effeminate than the average straight man.
@@alexpotts6520 I haven't witnessed this and I suspect the media has done a lot to twist peoples preconceptions and confirmation biases
"Effeminate" is a derogatory term based on the shamefulness of men actibg like women. A power relationship is implied.
It was 1960.I was 5 years old, an only child and had just started school. I fell in love with a girl, pulled her into the boys toilets and gave her a kiss. The next thing I remember was being stripped, spanked, dressed in girls clothes, put on the school stage and all the other kids were brought in to laugh at me. Not knowing of any difference between the sexes other than clothes my 5 year old brain saw it as a real and permanent sex change. I blocked the incident out of my mind until I was 13. Then suddenly I realised that I was a woman. It both turned me on and filled me with rage and shame. For a long time I thought that this was the cause of my gender dysphoria but never meeting any other trans person who had been through a similar experience caused me to change my mind, especially when I found that I had Mild Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome in my 50s.
Nature AND Nurture covered. Yippee! (Not) 18:00
Jenny graves, a world renowned Australian geneticist claims to have found male homosexual genes, she calls them male loving genes. She calls them that because because the women they’re related to have the same genes, mothers/sisters/aunts etc and in those women the genes correlate with them marrying younger and having more children. It’s an interesting finding.
Until recently this subject was so underground it was only spoken of publicly on anonymous imageboards and the like. It does seem to be bubbling to the surface now though.
As ever, I hope this podcast/channel grows and continually gains attention and subscribers.
*I disagree about Jazz Jennings.*
I think it's clear as day that Jazz is the *'munchausen by proxy'* type (also known as someone who would have completely grown out of it and been a normal hetero man if not for their mother)
*Jazz has recently been dating women* and discussing how unhappy they are with their body and according to their mother, Jazz has been refusing to continue with interventions to maintain their surgeries transition.
transhaunsen by proxy is what I’ve heard it called. Another example is Kai Shappley.
No, I think he may have grown up to be a normal gay man, but I do agree that mother may be a 'transhausen' by proxy parent.
I don‘t dismiss Blanchard‘s typology entirely but I think that thing shouldn’t be conflated. And here is why.
There maybe a distinction between transference phenomena, self mirroring transference phenomena, and transference phenomena plus sexual reaction.
Theoretically this differentiation might even be able to be made via a pupil dilation tests, mirror neuron tests (brain scans), and penile reaction tests.
In other words if a subject exhibited no pupil dilation to their mirror image, pupil dilation as a cross dressed person, but no sexual reaction, you could differentiate between a sexual response from a mirror transference response.
I also think this has to do what Heinz Kohut called self object creation.
Many people have normal transference reactions. A question would be what is their mirrored self, does that create a pleasing transference or not.
It’s possible that subjects are not getting a sexual response they are getting a self transference experience which gives them affirmative sense of self.
We know transference is not the same as sex. It needs to be differentiated.
And there maybe underlying co-morbidity for example Kate Bornstein has Borderline Personality Disorder. A self-transference may give a positive feedback loop of a previous dissociated personality, or early childhood fragment that satisfies disrupted mirror development.
A lot more needs to be investigated to make this a robust theory.
Otherwise there is the risk of pathologizing normal transference responses.
The other issue is autogynephelia sounds suspiciously similar to the observations of Carl Jung. If this is the case they are identifying with their own anima. Although Jung’s work is more difficult to falsify, but a conversation with Jungians who understand this might be good to understand correlation of theories,
Because Jung theorized that ALL men have anima, and if this is the case you may end up pathologizing all Men who exhibit any feminine behavior especially in later life. 7:16
Is he seriously wondering whether the English are familiar with the phrase “a piece of work?”
It comes from Shakespeare, dude.
When he mentioned that there was evidence of an association between AGP & masochism bc of the crossover with ppl who practice auto asphyxiation that rang true. However, after reading some feminist books which describes AGP as a masochist fetish practiced by men who get a sexual thrill from identifying with the inferior/submissive/feminine human, I’m surprised this wasn’t mentioned by him. There’s plenty of written & visual evidence of this imo.
The "why homosexuality" question has always seemed a little misguided. The fact is that attraction doesnt matter very much for reproduction. In the majority of our species history, one would reproduce with who was available (maybe 2-3 fertile women around in a group of 70). The idea that one's body doesn't work with the opposite sex if you're what we call "gay" (persistent, predominate, same-sex attraction) is pretty silly. Mormons (and other strict religions) have same sex attracted people who are pressured into having reproductive sex regularly. If attraction has little to no impact on actual historical reproduction capacity, why is anyone bothered to ask "why gays"?
For the vast majority it is though. Why gays is just asking why anomalies exist. Perfectly legitimate question.
Comment. Brave content as ever. Well done.
I don’t believe it’s necessary to identify your comment as a comment. The fact that it appears in the comments section indicates that it’s a comment, without additional comment.
Also the fact that it’s a comment indicates that it’s a comment, without additional comment.
Lol
39:07 Dr. Drew and John McWhorter like musicals, too.
All of them haven't updated their stuff since the 90's. With the rise of the Internet and the porn industry on the phones of men, more homosexual men have autogynephilic personalities than these guys proposed. The error in their judgment is in themselves going after their confirmation bias about homosexual men.
Also now AGPs are coming out very young. The otherwise excellent series in Quilette, When Sons Become Daughters, glosses over this.
Spot on. There are "gay" hook up apps (sister sites and off shoots to swinging sites) where the autogynophiles predominate. Algorithms select the most popular/viewed images which are more often not images one associates with appeal to gay men (i.e. masculine) but are of men heavily made-up to resemble women with fake breasts and wigs. Either the level of interest in this has rocketed or been exposed to view by phone apps.
Paraphilias proliferate in gay male networks to the extent that they fuel the development of porn genres and 'identities' begin to coalesce around them. I was told by a group of gay men quite earnestly that 'kink' should be included on the pride flag (or rainborg as I call it) and that those identifying as 'kink' were an oppressed minority.
No homosexual men are autogynephilic. That is a phenomena in men who are heterosexual or bisexual.
Blanchard's study states that 10% of autogynephiles are gay men.
I have a hard time believing that the causes of autogynephilia are "poorly understood". The idea that a sex researcher would investigate this group of men without asking them for their family history narrative is ridiculous. And the idea that there are no patterns to be observed in those histories is also hard to believe.
Much more likely is that the causes were extremely difficult to confront and discuss, because it would have involved talking about the ways in which these men were abused and neglected by the people who raised them. I'm guessing that Blanchard et al decided that for the sake of maintaining an open rapport with the men they were researching, which was utterly essential to their work, they avoided any hint of curiosity about cause, or pretended that the causes were unfathomable, when in reality the patterns were plain to see to anyone unwilling to look away.
It is very, very difficult for most people to engage in anything that might be construed as judging other people's parents in their presence, and similarly difficult to be the one hearing your parents being judged.
So what are the causes. Well, it obviously starts with their relationship with their mother. Anyone who knows people can figure that much out. And it involves the way they identified with their mother, since AGP is about identity. AGP is a strong compulsion, so there were strong forces involved. Puberty is a strong force, but whatever else heterosexual AGPs share had to have been strong enough to interfere with the typical pubertal development of object of sexual desire. AGPs want to imagine themselves as women, so I would guess that they were
1) Obsessed with/fawned upon by their mothers,
2) Fairly strict gender role enforcement in the family;
3) Narcissist mothers who placed great value on their female beauty and their sons knew it;
4) Pre-internet, sons likely engaged in voyeurism of their mother's sex life, now more likely just early porn addiction;
5) Probably no daughters/sisters in the picture for the son to emulate and the mother to shift focus to, leading to
6) Mothers disappointed in their sons for not being beautiful girls and future beautiful women like themselves, and their sons knew it; and
7) The mothers had some pedophilic tendencies, and allowed some measure of sexual tension to develop in the relationship with the growing boy, possibly going as far as sexual abuse.
We can't know what Blanchard et al observed but didn't report on, but there is a source of informal qualitative data available: the parents of trans young people, the ones who think their kids are making a horrible mistake and whose relationship histories with their kids are fresh on their minds, and whom regularly engage in cathartic disclosure in online discussion groups. Many of their kids are AGP young men. The histories are there for the reading. Incomplete yes, lacking in self-awareness very much so, but occasionally very illuminating nonetheless. The narcissism and some of the mother-son dynamics come through clearly.
Let the flaming commence!
Excellent post
Same with autism!
I tried to research the feminine counterpart to autogynephilia but the closest I could find was "penis envy." How is THAT for female fetish validation. I checked out autopenophilia but that means being in love with one's own penis. Anyone else see the trend?
Autoandrophillia
@@allie9928 Thanks
I am curious as to whether there is such a thing as Autogynephilia and body dismorphia by proxy?
What would be an example of this?
@@jayjaydubful Perhaps a parent or guardian’s influence/ attentions on their child? Incest?
i remember years ago finding out that most transvestite men were actually straight, it was a turn on for them. I remember a feminist who claimed that at the root of all gay drag queenery was misogyny.
I’m thinking Grayson Perry versus Eddie Izzard. Both have it but Eddie has turned dysmorphic.
That's very charitable of you. Someone more cynical (like me) might suggest that Eddie is merely opportunistically jumping on the "Transgender" bandwagon after self-identifying as "Transvestite" for the previous 20 years. Imagine two arguments for Eddie being in the Ladies toilets: a) I'm a woman trapped in a man's body b) I get turned on by the thought of myself as a woman. Which one is going to garner the most sympathy?
Eddie Izzard has always claimed "full clothing rights". I always enjoyed (& thought he enjoyed) bizarre combinations of eg men's suits with stiletto heel shoes; bright red lipstick plus beard. Now he's gone 100% to women's clothes it's just boring. Though still bizarre.
Regarding the fafafine uncle study - how can a modern society be usefully studied for an evolutionary biology study…?? In no way are we currently under the evolutionary stressors (predators, warring tribes, etc.) of ancient times that would have selected for this trait, nor are we organized in the same social structures… so how can we even try and study the same trait and its effectiveness in that way? How did neither of you call out this simple fallacy of the study..?
I think there might be a 3rd category: men who identify as women to win sports competitions.
It would've been nice to be told what proportion of trans have AGP and what proportion don't. Thats a pretty important point I would've thought.
It would be useful to know how many autogynephiles suffer from gender dysphoria autogynephilia
I think that male homosexuality and AGP do have an evolutionary advantage if you take into account group dynamics. Homosexuality is often found in social animals and it seems to ease the power struggle between alpha males and lets nesting females profit from a phenotypical male that can protect them but not compete with the alpha.
I've read somewhere it happens when there's an imbalance between males and females. Too many males trigger epigenetics configurations that wire up their brains to be attracted to males and/or pose and behave like females. This happens in the early teen years, not in childhood.
6:44 Sounds an awful lot like narcicism.
Western culture doesn't have any kind of gender grey areas that are commonplace in non white cultures.
If we had preserved those, we would have fewer people trying so hard to conform to harsh gender ideals and more fluidity.
It would be easier to be trans if we had some built in gender fluid roles, but we don't.
And people suffer.
Super interesting stuff.
I've thought a lot about this with respect to highly masculine gay men; i.e., gay men who flawlessly emulate stereotypically masculine traits. Can a biological male with same sex attraction be aroused at the prospect of creating the ideal object of his attraction in himself? Such as by highly investing in masculine endeavors----i.e., "bro culture"----to the point of maybe being obnoxiously male-centric? To be aroused or at least exhilarated by hearing others say "no way in hell you're gay!!" I even coined the term "autoandrophilla" following Bailey's paradigm.
Yes. This is a lesser known phenomena.
But that is his own masculinity, his own maleness that is real, even if he enjoying emphasising it.
Would you say the same applies to feminine lesbians?
I have never encountered that from feminine lesbians before, but I have heard on several occasions from lesbian and bi women that they find the experience of being desired by men whilst knowing that they are more attracted to another woman as being supremely gratifying to then. It's also a very common theme in lesbian erotica. I don't care about the erotica, but I must admit that it is unsettling to hear in person, especially since I have never ventured to ask for this information. People say weird things when they drink.
Yes, I know a gay man who is turned on by his appearance as a man, and I personally know a woman who is aroused by dressing as a man, so the phenomenon occurs in atypical populations.
Auto - Ed Gein - ephilia
How can he not have researched sissy porn, even a little? Other sexologists and detransitioners talk about both its increasing ubiquity and addictive power to pull boys and men into autogynephilia. Surprised.
He did mention sissy porn: with "enforced feminisation" of men by attractive & dominant women, as being especially attractive to AGPs due to its sado-masochistic natiure.
I don't believe it at all. Just like I don't believe child porn causes people to be pedophiles. Pedophiles create and make child porn, and then watch it.
I sent an email to him !
He never replies !
Bailey refers to transexuals as the pronoun 'she' when they are males, and transexualism as a sexual orientation when he says its innate, the old born this way. Maybe he should focus a bit more on nuture and not only nature.
The Man Who Would Be Queen: The Science of Gender-Bending and Transsexualism - Is this Book going to be republished, the only copies available are going for $100 plus!
Very interesting indeed! today I learnt some queer stuff.
Why don't we call AGPs "heterosexual transexuals" tho?
Nice cliff hanger. But I still can't afford to subscribe. Baby needs new shoes.
@Julie Booooo. She's wonderful. She can probably bench more than me. And she's got babies to raise. Give her all your money. I would, but I've got three babies of my own.
You're not going to read this. Someone might someday.
What you are talking about. Autogynephellia and homosexuality ARE means of adaptation.
Severe isolation, being molested as a child. Being torture.
Autogynephilia is a "grim subject"? What is the matter with you? It's just human sexuality.
Not when males colonize womanhood and kidnap women politically.
Whatever helps you cope at night
He sounds like Norm Macdonald lol
Sad buggers🤣
Thanks for the interview. But it would've been fifteen minutes long if only the guest didn't have a severe brain freeze after every... single....... word................ ..... .........
You can change the playback speed in the settings
Were the women in his study trans men? Shouldn't the comparison have been made between autogyephilia and the idea of autoandophilia?
No, because in order to debunk the two-type theory, trans activists claim that females have autogynephilia, and therefore trans women who are autogynephilic are just like natal females. Look up Serano’s paper. So the new study debunks the idea that natal women are autogynephilic like autogynephilic men.
Autoandrophilia is a separate issue and so rare as to be harder to compare to autogynephilia, and many suspect the motivations are different anyway.
Very interesting topic. Surprised at what a mediocre speaker Bailey is esp for an academic.
You're surprised that a scientific researcher isn't necessarily a great public speaker? That's funny.
Too much talking, just bring back flogging and the problem is solved.
"Physically petite." "Petiteness isn't part of the syndrome." NEITHER OF THESE TWO PEOPLE SOUNDS SANE. This woman literally thinks that short or small stature is a "tell" for homosexuality. Good Lord. Also, being gay is not a "syndrome." It's a "perversion." Also, there are no gay women....only women who have been hurt by men and just give up. Nobody (and I mean NOBODY) is "born gay." There are people who let their minds wander to a particular perversion. That's it.
I sort of agree yes, people Just do their intrusive thoughts/obsessions.
That's absolutely ridiculous. What are you talking about
I am going to assume you are addressing your question to me,@@bobsmith5441. There is NO EVIDENCE that homosexual tendencies are innate. Zero.
@cw4091 They were referring to MtF homosexual transexuals that often fit a more feminine physicality.
I understood when she said petite to mean more slender body frame rather than short
@@cw4091Why say lesbian doesn't exit. That's a very strange opinion.
Wow. I remember reading the Man Who Would be Queen at the public library when I was 15 before I even knew I wanted to transition. I’m a female to “male” or living as closely to resembling a male as possible and this totally makes sense why there’s been an explosion in a different type of trans population the last few years. I’m the homosexual transsexual type but a lot of the non-binary trans folk I believe fit the autogynephillic or autoandrophillic category. Fascinating thank you Dr. Bailey for continuing this work despite the backlash from parts of my community.