Are Women and Men Equal? Ex-Muslims vs Muslims | Middle Ground
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- Опубліковано 30 тра 2024
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Faiyad: / faiyadfit
Jad: / jadbaajour_
Janet: / janetmona
Kafir: linktr.ee/kafircore
Taha: / tahayaz5150
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0:00 intro
0:30 The other side is brainwashed
4:27 women and men are equal in the eyes of Allah
16:58 I have lost relationships because of my current religious beliefs
22:46 Islamic views on homosexuality are outdated
33:00 Muslims are unfairly targeted by outsiders
38:10 My personal desires do not have a place in Islamic faith - Розваги
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Waiting for Infidel Noodle to see this~
you mispelled "Azhan" in the subtitles otherwise nice
@@omi4470fellow infidel noodle watcher 🙏
you mispelled a lot of arabic words which is rude
Ok
The gay ex-Muslim covering his face to protect his mother broke my heart
That would be very sad but he’s Hindu pretending to be ex Muslim and his insta revealed the truth
@@Wabbajack-kj2kg he literally just said his insta
@@Nazisonyt I must have missed that. I didn’t catch every minute of it but I watched over 90%. Either way, it still breaks my heart a little that he feels he has to do this to not hurt his mother. Or shame her. That’s the vibe I got
@@NazisonytNice fictional story you made there
@@Nazisonyt why you guy's always bring hindu 😂 you guy's always bring hindu in everything 😂
No matter what religion it is, if you force it, the person will end up hating it.
agreed, preaching to people is fine but if they don’t want to hear it and u continue thats forcing
But also goes with other people's beliefs on the world not just for religion
For instance the more the LGBTQ+ community pushes for certain things the more there will be push back because we all are allowed to think differently and have different opinions and different realities of how things should be because we're human
as a muslim, I agree too. shoving religion or any kind of opinions (in general) up to someone's throat is harmful. its like you're answering to a non-existence question. ofc we have difference opinions, bcs we are created difference from each other. so we can celebrate differences, seeing world from different perspective leads to knowledges which will be beneficial for both parties at the end. its okay to disagree but do it respectfully, simple action yet hard to be done by many. if they're curious abt something, they can ask, we can answer and vice versa.
Exactly, read surah 2:256
"men find attractive the female voice" Men also find attractive the female walking. Should women stop walking too?
In Afghanistan women are told to walk slowly.
Wtfff 😭
for your info, Islam is an incredible balance the women dress modestly and the men lower their gaze thats it that's the simple formula of this now if people are not following this then plz dont say anything else that they shouldnt walk or breath and just becz one guy says that women shouldt do call to prayer becz of the voice that is not true there are just some dutys in the masjid for men and some of them are for the women
@@jankhan6691 West has a better balance. Women wear what they want, most of them are modest, and western men don't need to lower their gaze because they have something that is called "discipline" and "self restrainment" . So both genders can feel the sun and air on their skin
@@jankhan6691then why should women cover their face and not men ? Because ofc as a woman I can be sometimes attracted by men’e face so why aren’t they covering up ?
I would argue that this should have been done in a Muslim country, but then I remembered that it's impossible to do this in a Muslim country.
How do you think people convert to Islam in sharia abiding countries, without restraint? Stop being arrogant and actually use your brain
@@hanad5623 they are forced to convert..... was that a rhetorical question?
@@brianarc2 do u know what culture is?
@@brianarc2 yeha people forced Muhammad Ali, Mike Tyson, Andrew Tate to become muslim? Youre just brainwashed
LOL!!!
the joke is you cant be a ex muslim in muslim countries
"Women can't do the call of prayer because you can get attracted to a woman's voice" oh men are so odd.
Lol exactly it further proves how sexist and unequal ot actually is
@@mazzo-4kthat means women’s can’t do anything? Or the men should act on this attraction? Lack of self control and power dynamics is all it is.
Just say what you meant and don't self-censor. MUSLIM men are so odd.
If women are “encouraged” to wear head scarves to cover their hair since men get aroused by it, should women also have a voice modulator so men wont be attracted to a woman’s voice? The argument supported with “attractive voice” just seems so convoluted.
but it's true
Ex-Muslim here, I was put in Jail for 9 months, expelled out of my university, lost my job and suffered a lot me and my family for simply questioning Islam, after getting out of the jail I fled my country and publicly announced leaving Islam, to this very day I receive Dth threats.
I'm so sorry from the bottom of my heart, you didn't deserve that.
L
@@adamiqbal8447thank you brother so kind of you ❤, that happened 17 years ago and jail nightmares still hunting me.
Islam ostracizes ppl who leave or questions, das why (According to a well known Muslim Apologist) 100,000 leave Islam every year.
U just made that up
Interesting only 'Kafir' quoted issues taken directly from the quran and no one could give an answer
literally, was so confused that every time he spoke no one said a word in return? 😭
Cause they got stumped when the dude actually read quran and called it out. They could not answer it without making Islam look evil.
@@forkrust9296 they answered it, it was just cut out. do your research
@@forkrust9296 It is because it is illegal and a sinn in Islam to question anything in it
@@user-br5io9lj9w Lol research is something a 7 century barbarian religion followers must do. The whole thing is unscientific and misogynistic.
There's something so poetic about the two different people who are both masked.
The justification of taking away women’s rights in order to “protect them” rather than reprimanding the men who do harm and teaching them not to do harm.
Telling someone that they are being protected and that’s why their rights need to be stripped away. It’s incredibly dystopian and dark.
Yeah, it's annoying watching debates like these and never hearing about examples outside of the US being brought up. It's hard to justify what happens to women and homosexuals in the middle east.
Couldn’t agree more. That’s the rhetoric espoused in much of Islam’s rules regarding women. Why is it that they have to bear the burden of restriction yet men aren’t reprimanded for their actions?
You clearly don’t understand
Completely agreed. Women can find a man's face, beard, voice, hair attractive too yet they aren't made to cover that up. The religion thinks all men are like this and all women are like that when in reality research shows people are very diverse in terms of their personality and desires. Such primitive black and white thinking and yet they call it objective morality 😂
@@hebi8641Yes we clearly don't.
the guy isn't literally named Kafir, he calls himself that to hide his identity, and clearly has a sense of irony
obv u know how strict muslims are abt their religion he doesnt wanna get harmed prolly
thanks for making uneducated assumptions about islam. idk if your going off of extrimist and their povs but surley islam is far from strict your just too used to the life you live you dont realise how harmful it is.@@hehedumbkiddo
@@hehedumbkiddo He said that he doesn't want his mom to find out cuz it will break her heart, nothing bout gettin harmed.....
Honestly its smart, doing a video like this will cause lots of controversery. No need to have your legal name- too much danger.
love him
jad comparing homosexuality to incest is so funny cuz in islam you're allowed to marry your cousin, even in my family there's so many people who madeied their first cousins, my own aunt is married to her dad's nephew
1st cousin isn’t the same as a sibling
@@wavez4224 It’s still incest.
@@wavez4224 it's still incest cry about it
@@wavez4224 1st cousin marriage is incest
You're obviously allowed to but i think there is some degree where it can be okay, for example third of forth cousins. However I think its something that shouldn't be influenced for health reasons and so your baby can be happy and healthy. But i think it does depend on each family. Some people marry their cousins and live life normally, but i do think that there are high risks.
the fact that WOMEN have to cover their body and face cuz men can be attracted to it, women can't do the call of prayer cuz men can be attracted to their voices, the fact that men are allowed 4 marriages yet women are allowed 1, and the fact that we have to live in fear of our lives simply because we view religion differently says alot, ALOT
Legit
Legit
Women don't have to cover their face,.
tell the believing men to lower their gaze first. men have to cover up as well
Men are NOT allowed to marry 4. Men are allowed to marry four if and only if 1) they have the permission of his 1st wife. 2) they could do justice to all four of them and not any four of them are felt injustice. Otherwise PROHIBITED.
The fact that during the argument about women being seen as equal the moderator had to step in and ask for women's opinion is so telling 😂
Literally no one stopped them from giving an input on this topic. They stayed quiet on purpose, maybe they really didnt have anything to say on this. You talking as if the muslim dudes were telling them to shutup gun to head. Be fr. No one stopped them.
who knows maybe one of the muslim dudes would get too excited if he heard a woman's voice
@@noisi747 agree lmao
It's very telling seeing as the women couldn't speak for themselves.
@@nishatlala3990The musIim dudes were steam rolling the conversation as usuaI thats why the moderators had to step in
I find it really weird that these conversations are edited and cut down, I think it'd be really great to see the full conversations.
You have to pay for that
same
Having to pay is WILD
then generate your own content....@@jiya-jn6bb
The muslims did make a behind the scenes video if you're interested
as an ex-muslim myself this jad guy is pissing me tf off, he pissed off my muslim mother even more
i agree!
Can you explain why?
@@zakariafraoui because he’s genuinely being a terrible person watch the video please
@@goat.cheese_ So no explanation?
@@zakariafraoui i mean its hard to express just watch the video and you will see if you thunk the video doesn’t convey it that nothing i can so to explain
the fact that no one could answer the point about slavery and raping women who were enslaved is soooo 🙄
They answered it and it was cut out, and who raped the enslaved? You realise Islam stictly prohobits sex without consent of wife let alone the enslaved ones...
they cut the bit off mate
They are not slaves dude,they were slaves for non muslim men and muslim men bought them to give them a better life,so he does everything for her to live,house , food...and now she's like his wife dude if she wants to ofc,u guys can't make conclusions while u don't know anything
They can't answer because what they did and do is outright atrocious
@@kendall2004Your knowledge is overflowing PLEASE CONTROL IT
"Kafir" means disbeliever in Arabic and seeing an ex-Muslim using it as a pseudonym had me cackle.
I knew Kafir meant something, that's actually funny.
No it actually doesn’t, it means one who buries or conceals truth
I came to the comments to see if anyone else giggled at this 😂
@@cloroxbleach6344 Exactly. People should stop talking about stuff they do not know to be true. Kafir is someone that commits kufr. Kufr is the action of straying away from truth by doing things, that our conscience inherently knows to be bad. Like lying to ourselves and others, veiling our consciousness with drugs and not taking accountability.
Sometimes we try to drown our existential angst with drugs, party and worldy/materialistic things to run away from the truth. That makes us a kafir. It is a state of mind. Most people have been there before. It is our spiritual duty to stay away from kufr, so we do not become kafir.
@@cloroxbleach6344It doesn't. It means disbeliever. Stop practicing your taqiyya, lies permitted in Islam.
Comparing incest to homosexuality is WILD
Yeah that guy jumped on that out of nowhere, he watches too many island boys videos, I guess😂
not wild… same concept
It's actually not. It again boils down to societal norms. There are kings and queens that married their relatives - not only in Game of Thrones. In real life. There were whole families that ended because of incest. At one point in time, it was morally considered normal. His argument was that we view relationships based on societal norms. It was not the correct argument to make, but I think he was trying to say that most relationships are viewed from a subjective moral lens (even when there is no risk of mutant kids as in the case of two brothers engaging in a relationship). So, nothing is truly outdated when everything is subjective. He just couldn't articulate it.
Why tho? On what basis?
Thinking it is wild explains a lot of ignorance on your behalf.
I used to be a practicing Muslim but I read the Quran and sunnah and I find out that women are in a lower place than men in Islam makes me sad and depressed and I don’t practice it anymore
It means that you do not know the interpretation of the verses, because every verse has an interpretation
@@M.SA93 I’m Arab, I know the meaning of every verse and its interpretation, and there are many verses that do not need interpretation because they are very clear
@@ArabianZiz1998same her💔 انتي عربية؟
@@MelissaMeera نعم أنا عربية وكنت احفظ القرآن وأنا صغيرة بس كبرت درسته وقرأته مع تفاسير متعددة والسنة كانت هي الصدمة بالنسبة لي
Men and women are equal in Islam, they just have different roles. Women are very precious and protected in our religion
Jad sounds like a programed robot .. not actually talking with .. but talking at ppl .. very creepy and cultish
Would it be okay if ur husband or bf looked at the boobs if this girl which may lead to sleeping with her later(cheating on u)?At least my dude is lowering his gaze,like look how strong is he!not looking at a half naked woman in front of you is great and i bet you want your partner to be like this so chill hun
He's also parroting the same lines which were programmed into him by his masters (Imams and Maulvis)
He wants the 4 wives privilege/ controlling husband to some poor girl.
the whole “you might feel like you were being discriminated against as a woman and denied equal rights, but believe me it’s for your own benefit” energy coming from Jad is CRAZY
its not even just the energy its exactly what he was saying.. crazy
Every religion on earth teaches modesty..
The “Chad” energy was big with him too. He was named well.
@@MountainPearlsshut up white woman
@@manny__003only for woman... of course
Jad saying he's not gonna blatantly disrespect anyone as if he wasn't just openly comparing a consenting gay relationship to literal incest is absolutely ridiculous. The lack of self-awareness is crazy.
Couldn't agree more!
The whole message of lgbt is ‘love is love’. So he is simply challenging that’s message. If you don’t understand lgbt is a doorway to pedophilia and incest your small minded.
❤️🏳️🌈
yes, he´s an as**ole all the time
Completely respect Jad for not sugar coating the deen
The incest argument from Jad is insane. It’s shocking actually that he thinks it could be related to homosexuality.
It does make a lot of sense though. It's about two consenting adult not doing harm to anybody.
You are shocked because of taboo in our society but for sure you wouldn't be if everybody started doing it. How can you say something is immoral? What are you basing your thoughts on?
@@jonathaningram8157What shocks people it's being genetically correlated not being of the same sex.
homosexuality does not result in deformed children ❤️ hope this helps@@jonathaningram8157
You say I is insane but you gave no reasons for it.
@@ilgattopazzerello what if they're infertile? 😂
Atia felt like she was on her way out of Islam
Yep she should have been in the other side
I hope she does get out of that cult dude. She seems like a nice and mature person
@@chuckbassole very funny you dont know a single name about islam
@@liveforera. don't even want to 😍 I read enough ab it
@@chuckbassole yea from the media
The guy in the "weird" mask is the sweetest son a mum would ask for... So thoughtful and full of love. Considerate and humble.
Shame he has to hide cause of the honour killings
@@SpiritBled99 hes hindu lmao
@@macckka__2404 did you read the title of the video
@@SpiritBled99his instagram was linked and it turned out that he is a hindu 😂😂😂 hindus would do anything to spread lies about islam
That’s not what a mom should ask for! A mom should want a kid who can be real in front of her. Who can be themselves.
If she cannot handle it, she should seek help and not think sth went wrong with him
Brainwash literally means being told what you believe and not being able to question it.
It can happen in all religions.
Exactly
Religion is a scam, glad I got out of that mousetrap 👍
@brandoncammon7971 yeah it is. I don't believe in false dieties either.
megangosiak1489
In a liberal society there are certain things you cannot question without getting repercussions. If you believe in anything illiberal you will be highly attacked for it.
When you are taught from a child that something is true. When you group up and repeat the exact something without modification is brainwashing. You are not taking ownership of those idea.
You can tell the amount of hate Jad holds towards non Muslims or ex Muslims. Guy is a danger to himself.
I know. It was kind of scary to watch.
He's a creep
Hard 💯
He strongly believes what he believes. Everyone is entitled to believing what they choose to believe rather we like it or not.
He sounds very radical,it is not safe to live around such people.
Women defending Islam= chicken defending kfc
lmfao keep crying bud
@@ayuuhhh remain ignorant bro
sure thing buddy@@FictionEditzHub
There's a difference. The chickens don't cross the road and willingly walk into the butcher shop and then defend the butcher with all their heart and soul.
The chickens aren't brainwashed.
We r already awared and enjoying freedom.. do .rhink about urself@@ayuuhhh
"women can't do the call of prayer because men can be attracted to it."
bro at this point women shouldn't breathe because the chest goes up and down, men could be tempted!!!
The orthodox position is that women cannot lead prayers for men, which is justified by the different roles that men and women take in society however, there is no Hadith and Quran verse that prohibits Muslim women from doing so.
In your sense woman should be allow to enter men's bathroom
😂😂😂😂
Do you see a Jewish woman as a rabbi or a Christian Woman as a pastor or priest?
not true
The way the guy avoids the slavery grape question entirely is enough 😂
Finally someone said it ..why is no one talking about that ? Or topics like child marrige?
I’ve never met a Muslim in my life who had a slave. Also, it’s not rape because they have to consent.
That was a time when slavery was prevalent in society. No modern Muslims practiced slavery.
The Muslims who did in the 7th century Arabia where having concubines was a thing…it still is a thing (see bill gates). You have to buy them treat them well take care of them and not abuse them. And that was in a society almost 2000 years ago.
So no, Muslim men’s are not allowed to rape people. You’re twisted for thinking that.
The US military however, does permit this in the 21 st century. And the Mossad.
See Epstein. See Abu Ghraib Prison. See the Mauritanian
@@teal2774 u should do some research abt it. it is clear it was edited out
it was edited out :)
it was edited out pal get you're eyes checked
Bruh the way jad just looks down and recites his oppressive justifications seems so autonomous like he’s on a continuous loop of reciting a script as if he has no outside thoughts or ability to think for his self just seems so mentally dependant on his own righteousness of the religious views he has as if it’s true facts and not objective in any way at all it’s such a weak mindset he could be so easily manipulated
'My religion is perfect, Im not' -
The level of subservience 😬😬
What do u mean?
Jb?
Fr
If he said he was perfect you'd call him an arrogant p**. Y'all create drama from nothing.
Yup, they'd rather get blamed for all the ugliness of the religion then let others disrespect their religion. Brainwashing at its finest.
The “I can have 4 wives and we would all know who the father is if I impregnate them, but if a woman has 4 husbands we won’t know who impregnated them??” Is so incredibly odd. The ex-Muslim’s guy’s face when he was saying that exactly summed up my thoughts on it, like dude WTF??
like?? why would it matter who impregnated the wife? assuming it's allowed, all husbands are legitimate, so they would still all be one family. morally fine.
and the fact that he used this logic tells me exactly why women and men aren't equal in Islam
Muslims have a full encyclopedia of such logics.
@@1dowhatyouwant you’re insane if you think it doesn’t matter who the father is. Men would want their own biological children as well, not to raise another man’s child.
@@ChickenTenders388 well i figured they have loads of insane and ridiculous double standards which they conveniently explain as god’s will, what’s one more
@@ChickenTenders388who cares it's family or just do a DNA test
It's crazy that the muslims avoided addressing the multiple wives and rape issues
It's a religious tactic. If you can't answer, then:
Avoid
Dodge
Gaslight
Ignore
Etc
Literally they always do this and then often they bring other religions ie Christianity into it , but we are not asking about other we are asking specifically about Islam.
The issue about multiple wives isn’t about having 4 wives just cause, during times of war women’s husbands died in which they couldn’t take care of themselves, marrying 4 wives to take care of them and you must treat them fair and just and have permission from your wife. These Muslims aren’t scholers, don’t expect them to know everything about the religion
Literally @@LymphaticSystem-of3vn
@@Spastic110Well the same verse allows Muslim men to have sex with slaves and female war captives, even when these women are still married to slave men.
I’d like to see Turkic Muslims (like former USSR Muslims) vs Arab Muslims. Two VERY different Muslims.
The fact that polyandry is considered a sin, but not polygyny should b enough to explain that men and women don't have equal rights in that religion!
In islam it allowed, but not encouraged because it hard to do
Whats polyandry and polygyny? Did you mean polygamy??
@@doeeyes2polyandry is when women have multiple husbands.
Polygyny is when men have multiple wives.
Polygamy is when someone has multiple lovers
@@samsharp1263it is not allowed,don't lie.
@@thomaskennedy5728 He's saying polygyny is allowed but not encouraged ( which is again a lie ) . Polyandry is not allowed no matter what.
the way they Completely ignored the slavery points was so blatant and made it even more uncomfortable.. i appreciate kafir for bringing it up and atia for at least Trying to aknowledge it
You need to consider the fact that jubilee heavily trimmed down the whole recording to fit into 46 minutes and so you can't be definite on whether points were ignored or not .
No it was ignored and that’s why the other girl spoke up on how it was ignored.
Cause he took it out of context, if he tried to read the verse before he would know that its about who you can marry. He could also just look up the meaning
@@Aramisooo in what context is slavery okay ? '^'
@@444ngelicbeing surah an nisa verse 24 "Also ˹forbidden are˺ married women-except ˹female˺ captives in your possession." You can not marry a woman thats already married. It has nothing to do with slaves
The ways to "protect women" seems to be more so to "protect men" from lust.
Exactly. They punish women for men not wanting to control themselves.
how is it "punishing" women?@@schneedgod
@@user-zi5vj7lv8r When your religion forces women to cover themselves and not have basic human rights all because men don't want to control themselves, that is punishment.
@@schneedgodwhy not mention how in islam, men are compelled by law to pay for their wives but their wives have 0 obligation to pay a cent of their earnings for the husband?
@@RenderingUserso that means they aren’t oppressed?
Women defending islam is like chicken defending KFC 😂
Lol
The f*ck is your comment? If they want then they definitely can defend...Maybe you stop judging
No it’s not 🤦♀️🤦♀️
LMFAO DUDE I CRACKED UP
Xd
Jad unnerves me in that he doesnt look at them nor make any sort of eye contact when talking. Its disrespectful. It also lead me to believe hes just saying memoriezed talking points, hes focusing very hard while speaking very fast, enough that hes talking over others.
literally
No It's completely opposite LOL
What if he has autism. You're calling autistic people disrespectful?
@@Akhillees you know damn well you don't care about autism.
As much as I disagree with Jad, I have to defend him here. If I am not mistaken, it's about lowering your gaze, as they talked about it being a Islamic thing for men? Either way, it was actually a way that he was trying to show respect, it seemed like.
jad laughing EVERY time any other person who didn’t agree with him talked is mad disrespectful. he was talking way too much about respect to be this disrespectful.
Didn’t f with his vibe since the conservative vs liberal video. And it’s not because he’s a conservative because I myself is conservative leaning but there is something about him that I really don’t like.
@@Shanoxxa Same. and it’s also ofcourse not about muslims either. i grew up muslim, he’s not like us.
Clearly he doesn't respect any other people or its belief...
Where was he being disrespectful though? I think that taha guy was mad disrespectful. He kept huffing and puffing and interrupting when him and the other guy spoke. Clear bias against muslims
@@nabilrahman6516 but laughing every time that girl made a statement is still disrespectful
This is a classic example of why secularism is so important. The government should have nothing to do with somebody’s faith or lack of faith.
it's not somebody's faith, it's a whole nation's faith, if anything a state where faith is excluded from politis and laws means any law could be passed without regards to a whole group of people's obligations or prohibitions, perfect example is france banning the abaya from school which in fact is an obligation (hijab and covering the body for women ) in islamic faith and it's a sin to go in public without covering so the law disadvantaged the muslims and opressed them so there should be religious coutries (islamic , christian ...) where people of that specific religion live in to ensure thier religious rights
That is terrifying. Theocratic countries have the worst human rights records. (Look at how LGBT+ and women are treated in Middle-Eastern countries) Not to mention that basing law on the supernatural/invisible has dangerous precedent. You can't use logic or cross-examine it. That's how the Salem Witch Trials got so out of hand and why "invisible evidence" was banned thereafter.
And in many of these theocratic countries, you're labeled an apostate just for not being in that religion. No freedom.
@@hibba3764a whole nation cant have a faith, because no matter what humans do in every nation there will be people of different faiths, and all humans should be free to express their believes however they want. Excluding religion from the law doesnt mean you can pass any law you want, as not everything in life gets its value from religion and morality doesnt have to come from religion
@@hibba3764brainwash
@@hibba3764W France
My problem with Islam, is that it wants me dead because I'm an apostate. How can I respect that?
@@slo851
Even if you bring it up, they'd go denial or just reinterpret the whole hadith to make it sound peaceful.
@@slo851
Sometimes I don't know if I should hate them or just feel sorry for them,... Islam is pretty wild when it comes to brainwashing people from youth to adulthood.
I see them as victims of a backward religion and unfortunately not everyone has the same courage we had when we finally decided to leave it behind once n' for all.
It doesen't want you dead but you will be punished the Judgement day which is in every religion
I don't need the respect of a disbeliever
you aren't that special to be wanted dead so calm down
Absolutely hilarious how that dude said “I’ll get to the slavery part” and then didn’t…. nice of Atia to acknowledge it!
They didnt even let him talk? He forgot? Everytime the muslim men talked they starting talking about something else
Can u tell me which part was that please
they cut it off.
I just wanted to add: not questioning your beliefs is exactly what leads to extremism. This is true for any religion and also for atheists in terms of political views.
Well in the Quran you’re supposed to question. So I wouldn’t say we blindly just follow. Every question has an answer, so why not ask and get the answer.
@@therapy454 What verse are you talking about, because from what i have reed it says quite the opposite.
"Ask the followers of the remembrance if you know not" Quran 16:43@@MohamadQadir-jb5yb
@@nasirghaznawi1182It sounds more like "If you don't understand something (about the religion) then ask" and not like "Question what you believe". There's a huge difference. It even sounds like the opposite. It's giving "Just believe what we tell you"
@@MohamadQadir-jb5yb what have you read?
You guys should do a Stay at home mom VS the working mom episode. I’d love to see it!
they already did that. its an older video (I think back in 2020 or 2021)
They did it!!
Even though I haven't seen it I know that judging by the stats most women would prefer to stay at home instead
imagine being an Izlam abdul
@@KD400_ why?
As an ex Muslim teenager, this video was a veryyyy interesting watch lol. I was a born muslim and even studied Islam as a subject but the more I learned about the religion the more obvious it became that it's not real.
I can tell you haven’t studied Islam at all. If you did study Islam, you would have stayed as a Muslim.
On the ‘Men and Women are created equal’ prompt, I wish they discussed Kafir’s point about slavery.
They did, it was just edited out
@@polin1710no disrespect, but how do you know that?
@@aliciaserrano9698 the guy in red was going to say something ab it but host cut him off
I am so sure they cut this out. No Muslim would be quite by a such provocative statement
Yes 😢
Jad didnt come here to potentially get his mind changed, he came here to try and change other peoples minds. Atia was the most respectful and emotionally mature person, and Kafir brought up researched and uncomfortable truths that the Muslim individuals couldn't speak on. I wish moderators didn't halt some conversations.
Actually they did spoke but jubilee cut the discussion and what did atia do that was amazing?
imagine being an Izlam abdul
@@CoolestSwordFighterleast obvious rage bait
@@symbolofhope903Cope, Izlam supporter
i think this is such a perfect comment.
Don't believe what Muslim says about Islam but believe what ex-muslims tell about Islam.
You shouldn't believe anyone but yourself open the quran and read any page randomly don't trust the ex or true muslims they're just talking from experience
@@bluebone6531رديت عليك الحين مكسلة اكتبو مرة اخرى
@@an_angel_111 اكتب شو مش فاهم اخي
@@bluebone6531 اقصد تعليقي لي فوق فيه رد ع كلامك بالإنجليزية
An ex Muslim was never Muslim in the first place, a real Muslim would never leave islam
The ex Muslims absolutely crushed this. The Muslims couldn’t answer any of their points 😂
how many rakat in wudu?
this question's enough to make any so called ex muslims run away lol
@@staybased9320why is sex slavery, husband hitting wife, polygamy and marital rape allowed? These questions make any muslim run ;)
Btw...no rakats in wudu or wazu as people in my region call it, because its ablution i.e cleaning yourself before prayer.
@@vashmahtehreem1689 it's not allowed in Islam, simple.
Perhaps you're confused with other religion
@@staybased9320shut up stop lying. You do not understand your own religion
@@lushdontu4015 and a non muslim trying to teach about their own religion is funny to me
'I choose not to question it because i'm a muslim'... answers the first question so well
Not capleble of understanding What Trust in Gold means
@@kigi5784 yes i very much trust gold
@@kigi5784 I put my trust in silver 😏
@@NaoEgokoro_72 virgins too?
And the whole periodic table
If you're going to host these types of conversations, bring on learned people who can engage with the topic - otherwise it's just an emotional conversation.
Religion is composed and supported by average people. Therefore average people need to be on this kind of videos
@@yomilala8929 The average person's theological ignorance has no benefit for the conversation nor the audience. Like I said by that point it's just an anecdotal and emotional exchange, there's no value in this as no one walks away any wiser.
that's not the point of this show. it's meant to be everyday people who are believers and non-believers engaging in discourse. when we talk about other issues like race, no one demands experts, why for this issue?
It was just emotional arguments from the non Muslims side, besides the masked guy, and I don’t even know why Atai is on the podcast if she’s just agreeing with everything the ex-Muslims are saying
@@MyPimpedOutMuslim they were all pretty emotional and also very reasoned. it was a mixed bag. but this is how everyday religious and non-religious people are.
Atia is a smart and analytical woman. I hate to see that her potential is wasted with Islam. What gives me this idea is in one of the arguments she literally said “I am not to question it because I am Muslim”. She questions and reflects on a lot of diverse topics which makes her mind shine, bur Islam put borders on the scope of her thinking.
and please learn to differentiate between religion and cult. religion is like a guideline on how to live a life. things that the religion forbid us to do because it could bring harms to us or people around us. just like regular guideline how to drive a car safely. If we don't follow the guideline, we put ourselves and/or other drivers into danger. cult is straight up brainwashing their followers by force. not to mention that extremists love to ruin religion which makes it worst. (this applies to any religions, I just talk abt religions in general)
Cult is different goodness, You can hate us, but we are normal people who have normal lives. We aren’t cults, tell to that to extremist those are the reason why people think this way, but you guys know absolutely nothing and the people that they chose don’t know how to explain it because they didn’t pick people that aren’t educated.
That’s just not true
Saying Islam comes from a feminist place is crazy 😭
it's really not, islam is the most feminist religion out there
Has anyone else noticed how as this series progresses, the Jubilee staff continue to interupt more and more frequently and also seem to be steering or guiding the conversation in a way? I think they should allow the people who are featured to speak more freely without intervening so often but thats just me.
the muslims in the video already posted a video about this, Jubilee agenda posted this video. one of the so called ex-muslims was never even a muslims and he himself had told Jubilee staff this and yet they continued this video.
Yes they seem very biased and it shows
I think it’s helpful to keep on track and not go down too many rabbit holes
Also what's the point of a middle ground if the parties aren't supposed to fully explore the conversation with disagreement and all? Like literally.
I’ve noticed that and they’re very rude about it too 😭
Jad is a terrible debater. Any criticism or opinion of Islam he comes back with THATS DISRESPECTFUL. Its a debate bro.
A debate can be respectful...
@@Rbobbycbut nothing they said was disrespectful 💀 it was just a difference in opinion....he sounded slow
Classic muslim behaviour tho.
@@yasmina1994 so therefore jad wasn't disrespectful
Your watching a nippet of what usually is a long video. The tensions don't arise just over one question. Also jubilee put a non muslim there?
Religious delusion is insane 💀 Jad needs help big time
the Iranian woman, slayer queen.
The way they justified suppressing women as protecting them… if men are the problem, women shouldn’t be forced to change for them. If men can’t control themselves even by just hearing a woman’s VOICE they need to be kept on a leash. Act like a dog, get treated like one.
How do we teach people not to sexualize women. Its not possible. Its natural and problematic response.
@@adil2curtay by teaching them NOT TO SEXUALIZE WOMEN
They always use that excuse to justify the way they treat women.
@@adil2curtayIf you can’t control yourself, please don’t leave the house.
I am not sure women are "oppressed" in Islam specifically more than men, other than covering their hair? pretty much anything else is applied to both genders.
i genuinely started crying at Kafir's answer about his mom
true
Yeah it's really hard to hear
I hope he reaches out for help
:(
@@MrLoading anyway did any of you noticed his name? :(
@@user-hw6xm4pw7z no he didnt reveal it sadly
@@user-hw6xm4pw7z i don't think kafir is his real name, cuz he wants to be anonymous.
14:26 “To address your slavery point, and I’ll get on that in a sec, alright.”
*proceeds to not address the point about slavery*
Maybe he did but wasn't shown. U don't know
Maybe because He didn’t get a chance to???
jubilee cut that out
😂😂
the creators cut it out.
“women can’t do the call to prayer because men can be attracted to the voice of a woman” bruh 😭😭😭
For Example me. Bruh Everyone is not the same.
the way he said women can’t participate in a call to prayer because men might become attracted to their voice?? so should women never speak then?? It makes zero sense. As well, I know many women who are attracted to men’s voices. And yet he still uses this to justify unequal treatment between men and women. lmao
edit: changing my reply rq.
u don’t know at all abt Islam so don’t u dare say the religion gives unequal treatment!!
lemme provide u an example, ok?
women need to cover their whole body except the face and hands. hearing this, just think of long-sleeved shirt, pants and hijab. that’s it.
while men need to cover only 1/3. once they got their puberty, praying is obligatory. they cannot skip. meanwhile, women need to cover themselves fully. once they got their puberty, praying is also obligatory to them. *but* , they need to skip praying during their menstrual cycle, same goes to fasting. imagine those who have 8-10 days of the cycle.
again, u don’t know at all abt Islam’s practices and this is an advantage. this is one out of many. tell me if u want more. @zoejberkowitz
@@saidatulWe literaly can control ourselves, but these dudes are raised on doctrines that do not encourage them to face what they feel, instead they try to put all the burden of supressing their desires on women. Ridiculous culture
@@saidatulthe reason you guys are so down bad is because you are completely cut off from everything in the west we walk past and talk to women all the time normally and it is completely ordinary to us your making a problem that doesn’t exist
@@SpiritBled99 i’m a hijabi myself and honestly idc if men don’t talk to us. islam is not about hijabs. it’s a religion, it’s about practices.
edit: u don’t know at all abt islam’s practices and those gave a lot advantages to women like in marriages, prayers and paying zakat.
@@saidatul ok
Just because men can be attracted to a woman’s ankle, forearm, any body part that is covered by the garb (and not being able to go to the call of prayer because of being attracted to their voice)… shouldn’t men be taught to have self control and respect for a woman and not just look at her as an object?
Yes, a verse in the Quran was revealed telling the Muslim men to lower their gaze before the verses about women’s clothing.
Exactly, and what if a woman was attracted to a man’s face or something, he doesn’t wear a hijab? 😂
They have to lower their gaze... unless they're forcing themselves on prisoners of war
@@OnlyAbriS no men don’t wear a hijab, however hijab translates to barrier. Men have their own hijab e.g covering themselves from the naval to the knee. As for the face, the prophet Yusuf covered his face due to his beauty.
@@am1raayanle826 sooo men would be attracted to a woman’s hair? 💀
The fact he won't ever look at her while he's speaking is telling me enough about this religion. You're really gonna live your life without looking at women? Wtf, make it make sense.
Yeah, we're taught to lower our gaza with women that are not our wives or family
thats just for video. in reality islam allows sex slavery. mohammad had sex slaves which he raped and sold in market
If you’re feeling sexually provoking feelings at someone’s plain voice no matter what gender I think that’s called hypersexual disorder, hope this info helps!
Jad is so deep in his misogyny he can't even see it
Can u provide more detail how is he being more misogynistic
Can you please elaborate on what part of the video? Like the time stamp?
idk why he said that because thats not the reason. men are obligated to go to the mosque to pray whereas women are not.@@slo851
@@nabilasyafaah3831I can give an example of when he said women shouldn’t do the athan because it might “tempt” men, and honestly throughout this video he wasn’t looking at the lesbian girl at all, which I understand is apart of being Muslim where you need to lower your gaze , but it kinda seems like they’re just lowering women to be seen as a sex symbol- like they’re not capable to have an adult conversation without him fearing of being attracted to her
@@earth2fatima578it is all for safety for women, there’s 5 daily prayers indifferent time zones, why should a woman go out at night (fajr)? Wouldn’t that be unsafe to her? It’s not only the call to prayer but the walk, the going back and the dangers of her going out so frequently, some other comments have worded it better than me but to explain it simply, not all men will be attracted to women even though she’d not doing anything but this is fear of being heard by men with ill intentions, the voice isn’t awrah so obviously the reason for them not unable to do the athan is not because of her voice but the dangers of going to do it, and back.
Fearing for your life because you have changed your views on a religion, speaks volumes
Who was fearing for their life?? Did you even watch the video mate?
@@shakeeliqbal1113 If you watched the video and don't know who, ask someone
.... about the family and not the religion
@@slo851 theres none..?
@@slo851 ??? let it slide then??? show me sources. because i want to know where you get yours from
Saying “if it’s ok for two males to have s3x, then what is the problem with doing it with your brother” is logically equivalent as saying “if it’s ok for men and women to have s3x, what is the problem with doing it with your sister”. It’s a non-sequitur fallacy
Jad represents 95% Muslims
nah just 5%
@@ridalaughs people like you are the reason why theres a massive increase of islamaphobia
@@ridalaughs😮
@@ridalaughs brainwashed
@@ridalaughsofcourse you are..😐
32:40 struck me as deeply ironic. He says he would NEVER blatantly disrespect a homosexual, and yet compares their relationships to incest. Wow.
what’s the difference
@@harishussain7281 with a strawman.
@@cartizas4256D'Harmonie explained it herself in the video. A power dynamic is always without consent, for example because of grooming. Kadir actually mentioned this when he talked about a relationship between an enslaved woman and her muslim master. That even if he were not to r*p3, it would still be not consensual
he didn't he was comparing the consent .. if ppl just think before they react
not only that, he also says that they will be ponished after death for it
Jad-“women and men are equal in Islam” also Jad- “women can’t call for prayer because men might be attracted to their voice”
🤦♀️I can’t..women also find men’s voices attractive, women find their faces and bodies attractive. I don’t understand the argument that women apparently are attracted to other things and not sight? As someone who is deeply into physical attraction, clearly I don’t fit into their narrative, so what do they have to say to women like me? Shouldn’t men cover up too to prevent me from “sinning” with my eyes?
Sounds like he's describing animals not men.
To be fair, the argument he made was about how woman and men are equal, but have their differences among each other
@@yara-um6tx Men can protect themselves from the opposite sex while women can't
As a Muslim, That is wrong by the way. Women do not have to call for prayer because it is men’s job like Jehad for instance. That does not mean that she cannot call for prayers for example in her home!
I do not know if you realize how difficult it is to leave your house five times a day to call for each prayer twice!
I am an Arab girl and I owe everything to Persian/iranian women.. thank you all for your contributions
@Eli_Muwahhidfeminism, and speaking up for all women in the Middle East, not just themselves
Thank you sister. I love yemeni photographer boushra almutawakel, and I'm pretty sure her works influence us alot.
@@teentitans9817so do I! It’s nice seeing someone from my country having the same values especially with everything going on 😊
jad looks and acts like the most hypocritical muslim you can imagine
how?
@@lumiant2882doesn’t take genius to figure that one out
@@goat.cheese_ then explain how
@@lumiant2882arrogqnce
Jubilee brought 2 "Muslims" that thought more like the "ex-Muslims." And one of the 4 "ex-Muslims" admitted after this was posted that he explicitly told Jubilee he was never Muslim. Another one, the masked guy, PM'ed Faiyad afterwards to tell him they cut out his response on slavery and even he thought that was unfair.
Absolutely the only thing more cancerous than this video is the comments section
Very strange, more people should see this
Exactly what happened. It's ridiculous
Imagine being an Izlam supporter
@@CoolestSwordFighter Imagine having Islam living in your head rent free. If you dont like it, find something better to do with your time.
3:05 "I believe that Islam is one of the religions that encourages questioning."
31:29 "I choose not to question it because I'm a Muslim."
Yeah, sounds like not brainwash talk at all..
I saw her first comment as a general statement and her choice not to question as a specific application of faith to choose discipline.
😂
I thought I was the only one who noticed this
The contradiction lol
After reading about Muhammads life, its odd to me how people can follow that.
What did you read
same goes for western lifestyle
@@staybased9320at least we don't throw people off buildings
@@lushdontu4015 yes instead you destruct other people's land in the name of freedom
@@staybased9320still doesn't justify Muhammed ter**ism and war waged on idol worshipers...I've often seen Muslim does this when on being questions..this is just ad populum fallacy
The guy in the blue who is comparing homosexuality being no different than siblings falling in love with each other. I really wished someone would have used the same example but with a heterosexual relationship being no different than siblings in love.
Exactly!
And saying this when Islam literally allows cousin marriage is WILD!
@@FreenBeckyFB All abrahamic religions do
two men having sex is not natural. just like a brother and sister doing so is not natural. A heterosexual relationship is *natural*. That's the difference.
"Men might be attracted to your voice" "Men might be attracted to your face."
ehh...So, make all the men stay at home instead? (Since they seem to be the potential perpetrators anyway, as opposed to the women in this case, who are the potential victims)
That was my first argument against this and it took me about 3 seconds to think of. It’s like…come on dude. He sits there and cites scientific literature (inaccurately) whenever it suits him but goes religious whenever it suits him. Psychological bias at its finest.
THANK YOU
Men in Islam are told to LOWER THEIR GAZE.
Exactly, now women have to cover completely and stay home because men have no self control
Destroyed 🤣🤣
I am Ex Muslim in Bangladesh
Start safe bro
I'm also ExMuslim muslim.. Islam provide cult idlogy
What makes you say that sister?
Its obvious that it was written by men from that time period.@@Feisty.Success
@@sonnyblc7287i genuinely love you
"Do you believe hijab is oppressive to women?" Well, women in Iran are going to jail if they refuse to wear it, so yes.
Iran attacks Azerbaijan. It is forbidden for muslim countries to attack each other.
Omg then how is Iran muslim? By your logic Iran defines the whole Islam. NO AND NO! Iran does things that go out of Islamic rules like womens choice of wearing whatever they want to. Yall be hating Islam for Iran and Afghanistan while they be the only cruel countries. Go talk about France? They force women to dress revealingly. Go talk about North Korea and educate yourself. Culture and religions are different
@@Study-ht3voIran did not attack Azerbaijan. And it is not forbidden for muslims to go to war with each other.
the hijab itself isnt oppressive its how these countries and radical groups are abusing islam and its rights. a lot of the points brought up about the hijab as oppression especially by janet were more in a cultural context rather than religious
49 muslim countries and you name ONE that has hijab by force, and then insult Islam for it.....
This political outrage and problems with oppressive women and cultures doesn’t have anything to do with Islam. Islam says that hijab is mandatory. However no one should force you, no one can. The men who are forcing women to wear hijab in Iran are doing haram and this isn’t the women’s fault. This is all the governments doing not the religion.
Jad saying that Janet is being disrespectful for implying that women are forced to wear hijabs and not makes choices for themselves is wild cause Janet is Iranian and in Iran aren’t women literally being murdered for not wearing the hijab “properly” ? So yes, some Muslim women ARE being forced to wear hijab and are losing their lives. That doesn’t include the hijabi’s who obviously choose to wear hijab and don’t find it oppressive.
I’m here to say more. The Jad guy is so condescending and annoying. How is he comparing same sex relationships and to being the equivalent of an incest relationship as if Muslims themselves don’t literally be marrying their blood cousins. That’s incest too. So it’s fine because they are two different genders? like make it make sense 😂
W jad is the best
THANK YOU 👏 THIS! women are literally murdered and raped by muslim men just for not submitting to mandatory hijab. also death penalty is the traditional form of punishment for both male and female apostates for leaving Islam. and guess what? if you officially announce you don't want to be a muslim anymore, you will be hanged in Iran. this all happens because the muslims are in charge of the country
Yeah his logic makes sense only if he were to discuss with himself, he has no interest in listening to the other side
@@Ibn_al_sham123of course you radical 😂
I know many Muslim girls who remove hijab in the office or in the bathroom of the college. Or classes. They also get harassed by their cousins if they find out that she is talking with guys from another religion or atheist.
AND STILL FEW OF THEM DEFEND THIS😂😂😂
Brainless or brainwashed, same
Instead of islam focusing too much on dress and what would attract men and what would attract women it could teach how to have a strong soul and strong mind not to lust, cause covering up oneself is not the answer.
The guy who's wearing the blue curtain is the biggest fool i've seen in a longest time.
Atia is a muslim woman living in a non muslim country, that is a very important factor that influences her opinion about the religion
oh i missed it i thought she was from bangladesh? or is her family from there
@@tofuwienershe was born in Bangladesh but living in US. All participants are Americans.
girl literally grew up in Bangladesh. She said that growing up in a very religious environment made her question Islam and being in a more secular environment (once she moved to America/started college) allowed her to experience Islam on her own and that's why she chooses to be Muslim.
@@trish719 she obviously was lying
Meaning she had the actual opportunity to be free and think freely.
“We’re separate but equal” where else in history have we heard this, class?
Are you insinuating that men and women are not different?
@@zakariafraoui The real question is how significant those differences are, in what contexts they are pertinent, and the degree to which they really justify certain gender norms. These differences do not even apply to everyone, even when they exist at a group-level (save reproduction and sexually dimorphic organs), so applying such norms so rigidly to EVERYONE even then would not be justified.
Edit: Added a missing word
@@logielleEntiopyayeah but they apply to most. your western Utopia are very comfortable you'd probably faint in arabia
@@caba3995 Biological sex differences by definition do not vary between cultures; if they did, they would not be biological differences, and might stem from culture, division of labour and societal structures which can be changed.
Furthermore, you completely ignored that many people would still deviate from even the societally constructed norms related to sex and gender. In places like Arabia, they face significant discrimination which culture and religion cannot justify.
Objective truth and the normative conclusions we make from them given the same goals should not vary between cultures. To use culture to justify gender norms is to use culture to justify a part of itself, which is simply circular reasoning.
Furthermore, I am from a and live in a South Asian muslim-majority country, namely Bangladesh. Where I am from should not dictate what I think is most rationally justified, which is supposed to be more objective.
Jad is a narcissist.
The world’s largest cult that’s been allowed to grow by inheritance and the sword 🗡️
search the meaning of cult
I'm not really satisfied with the responses on either sides. I feel like relevant questions were asked, but none were really answered in a productive way. Would love to see a conversation between professionals!
this!!!
agreed. Atia and Kafir were the best but they didn’t get to talk enough
There's a series of videos from conference in Britain from years ago for secular Muslims. Nice panel discussions.
Exactly! I was disappointed with this whole group.This was a very basic, surface level discussion with non of them having knowledge of the Quran to use in their arguments. Kafir got away with the most ludacris explanation of the verse in Surah Nisa and no one from the other side even questioned the authenticity of the source/hadith and author.
Yeah it's so layman at this day and age of information, I can't believe people would fall for so easily for this, they need to get off the net and read actual books 😂
Pls do American vs European Christians/Catholics! Never heard anyone suggest this but think it would be super interesting to see the differences.
I agree 👍
Orthodox vs catholic
Do LGBT Church vs regular Church
@@happymood888 i think they did that already!
@@pinkediax dam I'll check it out
The fact the ex Muslim has to hide his face shows what kind of religion islam is ...
He hice his face because her Mother dont want people seeher face
@@IlhamShaiki because of what they will do to her...
Not saying much.
Saying a lot.
If he was confident on himself wil not hide his face 😉
Jad saying he would never blatantly disrespect someone’s “lifestyle” moments after comparing homosexuality to incest is laughable to say the least
So what is the difference tho?
@@NoMercy.62 to be more specific. We aren't prepared for that. Mostly cause it gives the next generation physical handicapped.
no but seriously you're proving his point, what's the difference?
@@NoMercy.62one is sex with family members while the other is sex with adults who have no other family history. There is literally no correlation
@@NoMercy.62They explained the difference. You're too slow to understand such a simple concept through.
Jad gives me alpha male podcast vibes 😭
For sure. All talk, no listening. “No, you don’t understand. We don’t let women do stuff to keep them safe. From us.”
Definitely bad optics for the muslims side lmao
All muslim men are supposed to be like him
I was also getting podcast vibes from him?
Thank you for making me literally fall of my chair laughing
“I choose not to question it because I’m a Muslim” - Me as a Muslim, COMPLETELY DISAGREE with it… Gurl, please read the works of our scholar from 1400 years, Rasulullah SAW himself said “1 hour of contemplation is BETTER than 70 years of worship”. The first verse/word revealed to Prophet Muhammad was “READ” (Iqra) not “FOLLOW BLINDLY LIKE SHEEP”
This is the "Let there be light" moment of this debate - "women can't do the call of prayer because men can be attracted to it." Yes, to Islam women are a thing that men can get attracted to. It's the inner meaning of Islam. And, still we are debating. Where is the sense in this debate? Where?
I hate when religious people think non religious people have no morals.
Muslims see themselves as superior to all the rest.
they do it because they themselves only have morals because they’re afraid of punishment if not, while most non-religious people have morals because they simply don’t want to harm and inflict suffering on others.
Yes they are just a bunch of hypocrites
@@wargattack8837 ur morals are subjective though
@@ChickenTenders388 don’t understand why you’re watching youtube if you’re actually muslim though it’s a major sin as this video contains both fitnah, music,
Jad compared homosexuality to incest but did he forget that first cousins are allowed to marry eachother in Islam. How is that not incest? It's so ironic lol. 27:07
Cousins have really different genetic makeup than siblings. One of the parent from each side is a sibling, the other parent are still out of the box. So cousins literally have 50% of different DNA making it a REALLY different situation as compared to incest.
@@tintedqualia but isn't it.. still incest...
@@shia2308 by definition of incest, it isn't
@tintedqualia but what if the family doest it over and over again uninterruptedly for many generations, as it is a common case in a few Muslim countries, then doesn't it start having a similar effect as incest?
@@lynb.3040 I understand what you're talking about, but you know what, this is a cultural thing and not a "Muslim" thing. Islam actually encourages out of culture marriages and there are many examples of it in the past