Seems like some guys are looking at bullpups as a PDW. I want to reiterate that PDW's are dependent on an INTENDED DEFENSIVE ROLE. The Tavor was designed as a general purpose rifle. The MP5a3, UMP, etc were designed as a general purpose SMG. While these can be pressed into PDW use (though the Tavor is more of a military PDW use), they were designed with a general purpose intent. The Steyr TMP/ B&T MP9/TP9 does not explicitly say it's a PDW, but the layout seems to go the direction of the Vz61 where it's categorized as a machine pistol, but in reality is a ground-up type I design with Type III SMG internals.
can't wait for the truck gun video as my x95 goes with me when i travel up north but my mpx is always by my side as an every day urban roll for my vehicle.
I think that's the main stumbling block for people: whenever we discuss the weapons, we try to classify them by type or design style, whereas for all practical points and purposes, they are defined by their role. This requires people to make a few extra mental steps because these roles often share characteristics with other roles. For example, the desired compactness of the PDW for vehicle crews is technically a different requirement to the desired compactness of bullpup rifles and carbines for mechanized infantry, but since in both cases it is about compactness for vehicles (and there is in fact a bit of overlap in the venn diagrams here) people still have difficulty making the distinction between "compact enough to not get in the way when operating inside a vehicle as a primary role, while prodiving a modicum of firepower" and "compact enough to be carried and operated inside an IFV in case the need arises, while providing the tactical capabilities of a full-power combat rifle". The constant mental jumps between intended tactical application and practical application, as well as the overlapping thereof means that there isn't really a neat little box to put the PDW and human brains tend to have difficulty with things not going in neat little boxes. Then there is also the added problem of the PDW's intended tactical role not necessarily applying to civilian life as well, so for a person buying a PS-90, there doesn't seem to be much difference in application to any other SBR they might buy on the market.
Tricky to classify: Swedish AK5D: Sub-carbine or Type 4 PDW? Russian AS Val. (8" barrel) 9x39 integrally suppressed: Sub-carbine or Type 4 PDW? German HK 237/337/437. (9" barrel) 300Blkout versions of G36C/416C/and 433C. Sub-carbines or Type 4 PDWs?
I’d argue that the L22 is a Type 4 PDW, while it is labelled a carbine, it is used functionally as you would expect a PDW. I’d also argue that the PDW/carbine designations often over lap.
Regarding the m1 carbine, my dad talked to a Korean war vet recently and asked him his opinion about people saying they would shoot people but it wouldn't stop them. He just said "you actually have to hit them. Then they go down." Excited for the series
I wonder if therefore this means all those eyewitness accounts of the 'heavy winter coats' in korea really were accounts of their ballistic drop off at distance, in actual trajectory
@@9HoleReviews got two words for that, Henry: hell no! I don't want to do that if I don't absolutely 100% have to. Life or death only. Besides, I was a submariner, so had nuclear powered air conditioning!
Recovery operator? What is this person? (I was the 5-ton driver for the engineering company I was assigned to in the 7th ID (Light), '89-'91. Unit vehicles, the 5-ton, one 4 door commander's HMMWV, and 2 truck variant HMMWVs.)
The ease of use is what makes the M1 carbine shine in my eyes. It’s what I use to teach my girlfriend about rifle marksmanship, the simple controls and light weight are invaluable when it comes to arming someone of her stature.
@@jakeroberts7435 it’s not all that hard to find, just ask your local gun shop if they could do a special order. PPU, wolf, etc it’s not all that expensive at where I’m at.
@@serioussoldier7977 Yeah, I've got to special order 30 cal. for the carbine, but its available. What a fun gun and it packs a wollup at close range, it will be a good zombie gun.
@@serioussoldier7977 I love that gun, back in the sixties my dad had to qualify with weapons periodically, he was an Air Force pilot, that was one of the guns l got to shoot the hell out of at the range. Lots of surplus ammo back then, and the one my daughter has was a military hand me down, we've got some cool stuff, the hand me downs, my family was military for along time, back to Cuba anyway. But the little M1 is a dandy, my daughter shoots the heck out of it, and guess who supplies the ammo. 😞😝
it's a small thing, but 5.7*28 was recently adopted as a STANAG caliber, like 5.56 and 9*19. It's been classified as the STANAG 4509 since about the end of February this year (2021).
Good thing, too. 5.7 seems to be more danger than its worth to reload, but if the ammo becomes more available I'll do something with it. I like the round, it fits a niche, but right now isnt the time to invest in a completely new round to me.
@@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz It's a cool round, but its adoption seems weird to me. It seems like a cartridge looking for a reason to exist. Sure it penetrates soft armor... but who cares? How is that useful for NATO troops? An FN 5.7 pistol is still large compared to even an Beretta 92, sure it's light for its size and holds a lot of ammo, but what's the real advantage over a 9mm service handgun when it's likely not going to be used much anyways? Maybe for MP units where they don't want rifles being carried, but why go through the trouble of having a completely separate caliber for a subset of your troops? I just don't see the advantage of something like a P90 when you can use something like a short barreled M4 and get better results in a bit larger package.
@@OfficialFedHater Video explains what are the downsides of short barrelled M4s: they are generally a bit less reliable, have a huge concussion blast and muzzle flash because the cartridge is meant for longer barrel. This is especially a problem if used in an enclosed environment.
@@yorhaunit8s Then throw a can on it. I've not heard much about reliability issues, unless you're using something like a 7" barrel which is useless, I think it should be at least 12" imo, many people do 10.5", and I've not heard of many reliability issues with something like the mk18. And even then, there's still 9mm smgs. I just can't see a benefit to 5.7 in a military use that makes it worthwhile to adopt it.
@@OfficialFedHater it was supposed to counter Russian paratroopers with heavy body armor but they also failed at that by not penetrating said russian body armor
I think this 4 type view of things does bring a lot of clarity to the niche platform. we as a community should adopt this standard. very well thought out and presented Henry & gang.
On top of having an amazingly organized and informational video, Henry appears to be including the entire youtube gun community in a single video. This is such a legendary channel
Thank you for including the M-1 carbine! Give it the metal folding “paratrooper” stock and it’s really high on the list. Add the M-2 full auto kit and you can really burn through some “extra” ammo!
@Saturn frankly it seems to be a lot easier to bust out into the firearms market in the $7,500 to $20,000 range than it is to compete in the $750 to $2,000. I see the Field Pistol being a far more successful product for FK BRNO than the PSD from a business standpoint...
@Saturn Kind of depends on how much they depend on the pistols to stay afloat and how much infrastructure they have. I understand they landed some contracts too, so maybe they aren't as bad off as some assume. It's hard to accept not all products are made for the regular consumer, but that's the truth. Hell, B&T would be long gone if they depended only on the US civilian market, but they are far from going down.
Aside from a nostalgia factor ("I carried an M16 in 'Nam" as an example), I'm hard pressed to want a full length semi auto rifle aside from the SVT40. Even a Mk12 SPR is a couple inches shorter than a standard M16A2.
@Frankjoe1991 I believed the Sugar Weasel was the HB's only lesser (poor man's) cousin. Also offered by Q. Q looks like a cool ass company I'd be willing to choose for my first real gun but a lot of people have poor words for them hence my hesitance.
3:50 "Think of a combat medic, who is busy tending to patients" Medics and AT dudes in Ranger Battalion use the MK18 for this reason. Not exactly a PDW because they still need to keep up with the dudes in the platoon running full size rifles until they're needed for medic duties.
Everybody is too busy doing duties, until they need to fight. From the guy operating a radio, to the guy manning a vehicle, to the guy fucking with a map... I don't see the reason he is referring to.
M1 carbine is my favorite firearm of all time. I live in upper peninsula of Michigan and if I do anything in the woods it’s the rifle that comes with me. Solid deer rifle at 150 yards or less too
I just wish the ammo was more common. Online availability is rather common and it’s nice that defensive loads like Hornady critical defense and LeHigh Cavitator are available. But in brick and mortar stores, it’s frequently out of stock, even before Covid. Places just don’t care to keep it stocked because so few people/guns shoot the caliber.
@@pb7087 thats the exact reason i sold mine several years ago... switched to 9mm PCC's i really like them but they dont have the feel of the m1 carbine
How’s things in the UP? It’s one of the areas I’d consider retiring to. However, I live in Ohio. My wife of 35 years, is a diehard OSU fan. She’s threatened divorce at the minimum if any such relocation to the Land of Evil occurs.
I like the way you have broken down the classifications. I think that the reason there is a lot of blead over is that "PDW" is really a way of using a weapon rather than a defined weapon class.
@@WALTERBROADDUS Maybe, but you never know the situation you get thrown in and you work with what you have. In addition plenty of long range marksmen competition over the decades involved the M1 carbine. Plus pdw have been used on the 500yard course before. So let’s see what the true potential of these guns are
The SR-2 Veresk is a very interesting weapon I'd consider a PDW, Personally I love type II's (Stechkin lover forever), I'll be using this system of classification from now on!
Ironically i was dreaminh of how to classify PDWs last night and today this video appears to explain with all the details. Never thought there were 4 types, only believed of the type 1 PDWs
I like the classifications even though the term PDW will always be a loose one. This is more befitting to it then the previous way it was used in the last decade or 2. I think this fits more generally on what several manufacturers and organizations have been looking for compared to the 90's definition
Yeah absolutely agree. Compare it to an M1 Garand and i becomes obvious immediately how much more compact & light this gun really is (especially folding stock variant)
I absolutely love these types of videos from you, they're always entertaining and informative. You can see the effort and time that was put through. I also just love the pdw class of weapons.
Great breakdown of the different types of pdw. This video exceeded my expectations of how you would cover this topic. Very well done. Ive got the type 3 covered with the Scorpion Evo 3 S2 micro and the type 4 with a DDM4V7 PDW, and didn't have much interest in the other types.......until now. You expanded my knowlege, thought process and appreciation for some others that I had overlooked.
I love it when way more professional folks with more reach and better production values make content that reflects the shower thoughts I've been wrestling with over how to explain or classify PDWs. Awesome vid, also loving all the mentions/features of other creators footage - will have to check out their ones I wasn't already aware of. 👍
You guys NEVER fail to make sure everything is explained in detail. Thank you i been trying to explain PDWs to my wife... NOW ..she gets it...THANK YOU!!!!!
This is my favorite gun channel! I have a 10.5 in ch ar and I really understand the “blast “ that it gives off especially indoors. M1/m2 carbine definitely has become my favorite pdw type rifles! Keep up the fantastic work!!!
I have a 12.5 w/ Surefire close tined SOCOM flash hider. The blast isnt as bad as I thought it would be, but I know that if I had to let loose I'm going deaf and maybe a bit concussed.
Great vid guys! Always had a thing for "In-Betweeners" as I call them- whether DMRs and Automatic Rifles or PDWs. 5.7 type II's starting to come on line with the Ruger 5.7 FCU - MP57 and hopefully Flux will get around to it, not optimal but low hanging fruit .
CAA should have an MCK in the works for the Ruger 57. That would be awesome because it would be in the same vein as the Hellcat variant they are going to release as in it is meant for a specific size gun. Going from handgun to braced subgun in seconds. That is a combo I could get behind.
Specifically, a DMR must and only can be semi-auto. Completely ignoring the company level marksman found with a scoped Springfield rifle in WW2. That role is a DMR and not a sniper.
@@SlavicCelery more or less. There's some potential for crossover between the DMR and Automatic Rifle role like you see with the M38 in Marine use. Both Chuck Pressburg and Larry Vickers have talked about the HK21 with 1.5-6x optics used that way, which of course would make even more sense with an HK11. Then you have the Swiss DMR school teaching what they call "Sniping 4th Generation" ,which essentially creates a beaten zone with a DMR. Lot of flexibility with those two weapons.
@@jamesbridges7750 absolutely. There was someone insisting that a G3 could never be used as a DMR...because it wasn't "accurate" enough. And DMR's have to be built specific, not a role.
By that metric, so was the 1911. The US has comitted its fair share of war crimes during all wars and other conflicts it's been a part of. (including making the sun rise twice in one day on Japan, twice, during WWII).
@@44R0Ndin I'm not from the US, but if I'd have to wager, the US saved an entire population of Jews from war crimes and stopped Japan from committing even more war crimes in East. You know nothing 44R0Ndin, and that Anti-Western stuff you learned from your lesbian dance theory wont help you prove your point. jk jk :3 teehee
Great video. I would love to see a video focused on a Personal Defense Case. 3 or 4 firearms that a may be put into a carry case for personal defense for a home, car, or open area with quick access. A all in one emergency case.
Your channel's presentation style, creative ideas (Pick One & Japanese Gun Porn series), and data logging (Practical Accuracy Tests) bring a new and refreshing breath of air to the world of guntubers. Thank you both for your content.
Excellent discussion on the PDW class weapons. Well defined. There are different PDWs for different roles. Type 4 for rear echelon ground troops. Maybe a type 2 for pilots. Type 1 for administrative staff and Type 3 for tank, ship, or armored crews. Each will have its own purpose and will be specific. This is a great analysis of the PDW class. Great job as always guys!
Great video and explanations of the different kinds of PDW. I love my PDW's PS90, MP5,MP5K,MPX, Kriss Vectors in 45 ACP, 10mm and my Daniel Defense DDM4 PDW in 300 Black out.
The VZ-61 was designed from the ground up with mechanized troops in mind. It was always intended to have a stock option. It is not a shortened form of a preexisting design. With these facts in mind, I would say that the VZ-61 is a Type I PDW rather than a Type II.
Great video, but PDWs are my focus, and I would like to add/amend certain parts: I think the most important classifications are by purpose, not how they came to be. In addition, the primary mission set of a PDW is in the name, a personal defense weapon. There are few situations outside of war that involve defensive shooting past 100 yards. The best PDW is the most firepower in the smallest controllable package. Amongst those who have used them in battle, the MP7 and P90 are not well liked, and while the ammunition availability is a problem, it is not the primary issue. Both rounds are anemic, they do not do enough immediate disruptive tissue damage, and do not actually have increased functional ranges. The 5.7 is better than the 4.6, but they have failed tier one guys way too many times. I have heard nothing but hate from those who have shot people with the MP7, which is much different than steel or paper. The Flux Raider, not shown nor mentioned in the video, does use the M17/p320 operating system, but other than those assemblies is much more of a ground up approach, rather than a stocked or braced pistol, or a conversion. It currently is the lightest, smallest, fastest controllable package with the most firepower. Again, these are the most important attributes for a PDW. Thank you for an awesome video on a forgotten topic.
@@v12ts.gaming Sure, it could be classified as a conversion, but most conversions also use the lower or frame of the pistol, building around it, instead of just using the operating system.
@@BenfromFlux with that, are you in Pro or Contra to the belief that the MP17 is a Type 2? Because by definition, Type 2 PDW's are mainly based on regular pistols. In the case of MP17, it is indeed based on the M17/P320 pistol hence the name. So naturally, it's a Type 2.
This sums up the topic nicely and would love a further exploration of each type. I know info is limited, but the Knight's Armament PDW chambered in 6x35mm definitely should be included as either a Type I or Type IV PDW.
This video rocks. I feel like the M1 carbine is very ahead of it's time in this regard. It was the original type 1 PDW. Very important when you consider how many troops are serving in a non Frontline infantry role.
People have argued that M1/M2/M3 carbine also falls in the category of assault rifle as it matches the progenitor of this category STG 44 in cartridge similarity, era, wide field usage ie not limited to rear echelon troops, similar dimension and similar versions.
There really isn't a huge amount of similarity in the cartridges. The 8mm Kurz is just far enough up the bell curve of muzzle energy to make it a true rifle cartridge, the .30 Carbine trails behind by a considerable margin. The round closest to the .30 Carbine and the one it directly went up against in combat in Korea was the 7.62 Tokarev.
I think the M2 carbine is much more akin to an assault rifle than to a pdw. However, this is where the application based vs. technical merit based definition difference becomes tricky. The M2 carbine is both an assault rifle and a pdw because both terms are based off different categories of definitions
@@zoiders it's closer to 7.92 Kurz than it is to 7.62x25. That said, it's close to being right in the middle of those two In terms of muzzle energy it is on par with 5.45, but due to poor bullet design it loses energy really quick. Still a 357 mag from a pistol at 100 yards. In terms of energy Edit: added it being close the the middle part
@@zoiders says who? There is no set definition for an intermediate cartridge. Also, what constitutes "effective"? .30 carbine fits between a .30-06 and a .45 with ample distance to either. It is literally, by definition "intermediate". Whether it‘s a good or a mediocre intermediate cartridge has no effect on whether it‘s an assault rifle or not.
I have 2 ps90s. 1 with 10" barrel with a permanently afixed 6" suppressor, thus making it legally NOT an SBR, ant not requiring a fed tax stamp and the other is a 16" barrel that fires Lazer like accurate to 100 meters. Absolutely love both.
For me, pdws are clearly weapons or versions of weapons that have a handy, compact guide in e.g. vehicles or tight situations such as personal protection enable or facilitate stretching , weapons over a certain length are more difficult to wield . Also, in my opinion, weapons that can fold in the shoulder rest, for example, to be more manageable. Of course you could also say that an AK or G36 with a folding stock would be a pdw, maybe for some, but it's all about compact, handy and short design. Also worth mentioning are automatic pistols with a grip, buttstock and silencer, and depending on how long the weapon lasts (we assume that the buttstock and silencer can be easily removed or folded in) this would imo also be a pdw.
As a non combatant mobile comm operator adjacent to front lines or stationed at remote staging areas, my PDW / Assault Rifle at the IDF was the IMI Galil SAR aka "Glilon". I was able to continuously and consistently and comfortably carry it on person 24/7 in just about any space or situation. Later as a volunteer at an off road first response police unit my PDW was a M1 Carbine on poly furniture with a folding stock (similar to the Galil / FN FAL folding stock form). Both were easy to handle getting in and out of vehicles or operating in tight spaces yet still offered a rifle platform (Well, the Galil SAR had a 15 inch barrel and the M1 Carbine had its quirky ammo and rather long barrel but still effective PDW packages for the given purpose).
Love the M1 Carbine, and yeah it was most definitely a compact and lightweight carbine for its day in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. As far as PDW's go though, yeah the M1 Carbine seems to be the OG, but it seems outclassed in most every respect. CERTAINLY for size, given it has an 18" barrel, even a folded-up M1A1 Carbine is probably bulky compared to just about all other options mentioned in the vid. Something it might dominate in is distance, given the long-radius aperture sights and long barrel. It might prove to be more precise out to 200m+ compared to an MP5K, perhaps P90, and MAYBE AKs-74u although I really don't know. I'm now extremely curious as to how all these different platforms perform at longer ranges, even though the platform itself is probably meant for defensive usage at closer ranges. Also, for the 5.7 and that 4mm cartridge, these modern cartridges also aim to have AP functionality which 9mm and .30 Carbine probably lack in. Not sure if the M1 Carbine can truly be considered a PDW in today's context, especially since it's longer than an M4 Carbine with its buttstock fully extended. M1A1, on the other hand, that's a maybe but that ridiculously long barrel without any bullpup implementation makes it kind of a laughable compared to modern interpretations of PDW. Full-stock M1 Carbine doesn't seem particularly useful as a tanker firearm and I think it'd be rather long and bulky to deal with in a vehicle, at least compared to the other options. Yeah it's very lightweight, can sling it and forget it quite easily, but that bulk... that length... yes it's quite short compared to 24-31" barrels of WWII standard issue rifles but nowadays 14-20" is the status quo for standard-issue front-line assault rifles and 18" is towards the end of that spectrum. The overall length of a full-stock M1 Carbine seems to be about 4" shorter than an M16, and is even a tad longer than a typical full-sized AK. During in the mid-late 20th century, 100%, I'm down with calling it an extremely handy little compact, lightweight PDW. I'm really not surprised that it even seen a fair bit of front-line usage to my understanding even though it was meant to be for soldiers who didn't think it likely to have to use it in combat. Truckers, artillery, etc. Triple-capacity over typical bolt-actions it would face, soft recoil means quick follow-up shots, it would be outdone in close quarters compared to SMGs but out to more mid-range distances like 200-300m it would perform better than SMGs (110gr at 1990 ft/s, .30 Carbine has a 33mm case length which is the same as .357 and .44 Magnum, .30 Carbine could practically be regarded as a rimless .30 Magnum cartridge), and so on a variety of levels I think it's very well-suited as a frontline firearm in the context of WWII and Korea. By Vietnam though, with bolt-actions having largely been replaced by SMGs and assault rifles and semi-auto rifles like the SKS... its advantages start to wane. The upgrade to M2 Carbine, doubling the capacity to the half-century standard of 30 rounds and allowing for the option of full-auto (even though it's not too controllable due to the platform being so utterly lightweight), it can make it more competitive against assault rifles and SMGs. So yeah, love the M1 Carbine, M1A1 Carbine seems very cool and could potentially still be within PDW territory in spite of that stupidly long barrel, but I just have a hard time seeing the M1 Carbine being an actual PDW in the last roughly 30 years or so (which happens to be about how old the FN P90 is). It's got the lightweight aspect, but really, it ain't too much lighter than the M4 Carbine and it's also a fair bit longer. I wager that 30-round M2 Carbine magazines are also not as light as a typical 1.1lb (500g) loaded STANAG magazine, not to mention the M2/M2 Carbine itself doesn't have the greatest reputation in the world for reliability and is probably more prone to malfunctions than any PDW mentioned in the video, and also more prone to malfunctions than the aforementioned M4 or M4A1. God bless the M1 Carbine, it served so very well during the bloodiest war in human history, also in Korea, and in Vietnam. Utterly fantastic carbine that any civilian gun owner should be proud to own, and is probably the closest to a PDW that most gun owners in the world will ever be able to obtain. Here in Canada I've owned an M1 Carbine before, love it, though I think a Chinese QBZ-97 (which I'm proud to say I've handled one before but not shot one sadly) would be more of a PDW, as would be the Israeli Tavor, both bullpups. But also, both are basically 'full-sized bullpup' platforms, and probably generally not regarded as PDWs, which is why in TODAY'S climate I have a hard time maintaining the M1 Carbine's position as a PDW even though it's essentially the first or one of the first ever made. AKS-74U is probably as-good or better than the M1/M2 Carbine in every way except for weight (only SLIGHTLY heavier), with the possible exception of accuracy out to 200-300m or so. At 500m though, pretty sure the AKS-74U actually HAS a rear sight with that distance, but the M1/M2 Carbine has 300yd (270m) at best (in my experience with my own M1 Carbine), so technically speaking at that sort of half-kilometer distance the AK is probably better simply on the virtue of its rear sight being capable of going beyond 270m even though I don't have high hopes of the AKS-74U having much accuracy way out to that distance. Still, better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
I like how you came out and mentioned Logistics and reliability separate. There is a huge mess as a lot of problems with a weapon can arise. Logistics is usually figured into ammunition availability but can become confusing as a lot of people never think "Wow, that's a lot of ammo spent, what does he have left". PDWs are NOT meant for long term engagements without specific requirements met. Often for tankers this means you got just enough to suppress and escape to mount a new tank and get back to the job your designated, while the military carrys the ammunition you may not receive supplies for a few days, and you must plan ahead. People think the Hollywood movies are great and people just blindly spray and have enormous reload potential over the fight, skip to the next battle zone (logistics is boreing but nessisary, otherwise a gun is nothing more then a interesting looking club). Realistically the more ammo your packing then defeats the purpose of a PDW as your taking more ammo to make up for the lighter weapon which needs to be carried and creates a hard to move frame. This keeps the soldier the same weight, but the weapon isnt specialised in anything other then quick enguagements to take advantage of surprise or the minor advantages of the PDW selected. Love your videos, you do hit the points that make the weapon specific and unique, while also designating a purpose and history. I'd argue though that before PDW semi-auto there are also stocked revolver and revolver carbine platforms that made the first attempt at this, although it was lower in scale and practicality of its time, often were issued to mounted troops and send to soldiers who needed to be more mobile then the main battle line. Speaking of a revolver stocked or revolver carbine could be interesting to see your take on them, your a terror on the targets, I wonder how far you can hit with them. Anywho, you got more pressing things I'm sure, wish you the best in this time, hope you have a wonderful day!
Beautiful video man. I was always scared to admit I didn't know jack about this category - and now it makes perfect sense. The best I could arrive at from the internet and "Fudd Lore" was that it was a "Sub machine gun....but like, maybe NOT full auto?, sometimes with a rifle round and.....kinda small?"
One of the best Type 3 PDW'S I've seen and shot is the MP9, simply great you can get a Holster for it as well, however 9mm doesn't go through armor so if you need to get through body armor you can always try throwing it at them. 9mm problems aside the nature of it allows for easy deployment, quickly acquiring your target and taking care of the problem. Put a Red Dot on. Hack off the Iron Sights, attach a Mini Suppressor, and get to work,
Really awesome collaboration guys! Just in time to help my friend choose his pdw/bag gun! I have and love my somewhat modernized VZ61 and am very confident with it but its not a platform I recommend to others for the same purpose. I have a small stature, small hands and train often on its very unique manual of arms. Amazing little gat though.
Excellent, thank you. DiggingForFacts is correct, role determines use. A grunt's role is basically offensive. If he's serious he's using an MG. A commander's weapon is his unit and a radio. So too an advisor's. In the sandbox in the '70s, I had to get in and out of various vehicles all day doing readiness inspections. My PDW was a cross drawn (didn't catch on hatches) CZ75 with 3 mags of carefully sequenced ammo. When the 5.7x28 pistol came out I could carry 61 rounds and make head shots at 50M. Yet in a clandestine role, my preferred CC PDW is a hickory cane that I can hit with faster than anyone I've met can draw their CC. But your best PDW weapon is still not to get into a PDW situation. The first rule of defense is: don't be there.
I always like to think of PDW as a "usage term" or "usage classification", one you'd use along a proper classification, so for example the P90 and MP7 are SMGs first and PDWs in their used role. This way also allows for them to be used in other roles since the usage term ofc only applies when they're actually used as a PDW and if not the real term (i.e carbine, SMG, Machine pistol etc) applies. Great video, I love the amount of featured channels and every time someone mentions the M1 Carbine and LP08 as the OG PDWs they already got the right idea in my mind :)
As a USACE employee in memphis we are briefed annually about threat of new Madrid earthquake. They know it will happen and be 6.0 or bigger. Corps helped memphis do an assignment and found most of the infrastructure in memphis, including our own assets, will be taken out at 6.0. So we are told to maintain a pack because the highways will be taken out. If I had to hike home I'd be crossing 3rd street, south memphis, east memphis, well known trouble spots. All I'll say is I made sure I know what a pdw is...
With SMGs, depending on the design, I feel that often they are PDWs already. Heck, besides urban SWAT and PDW roles, where else would you use SMGs? You look at the micro Uzi, they ADDED to the gun just so you have a left hand later. A modern, lightened Uzi replacement with delay blowback and shooting say, 7.5 FK and 9mm or 10mm, would be a great PDW.
It should be noted that the Micro-Uzi was a development of the Uzi pistol, hence why it is a closed-bolt submachine gun unlike the rest of the Uzi SMGs. All they did was add a folding stock and the fun switch to turn the Uzi pistol into the Micro-Uzi.
With modern SMGs, I'd agree. Historically, SMGs are of similar size and weight to their accompanied service rifles. Thompsons, PPSHs, M38s, and the MP40 (to a lesser extent) were not particularly light or small. Even the original Uzi with its wood stock was a beastly chunk of a gun. Modern designs have gotten away from these full weight pistol caliber SMGs, but personally I find that they may have thrown the baby out with the bathwater. Shooting an original full sized Uzi next to an MP5 really opened my eyes to how nice those heavier guns were. I could very easily keep long bursts on target with the Uzi, but struggled beyond extremely close range (within 15m) with the MP5.
@@jacobackley502 OK, now you're just showing off... I guess I'm not surprised? Is a 9mm cartridge any lighter than 556? How is MP5 compared to other modern SMGs?
@@ABCantonese the only full auto 5.56 rifle I've fired (I don't count the full sized machine guns I've fired in the Navy, they recoiled about the same as a sewing machine) was actually very unpleasant. The cyclic rate was way too fast, the rifle was overgased to hell, and the muzzle flash was too bright for the indoor range I shot it at. That gun was a registered pre-86 m16 lower with a 12 inch barrel upper and a red dot that wasn't zeroed in the slightest. Now having said all my excuses, it's very easy to see how with a little tweaking it could be great. An adjustable gas block, heavier buffer, and a compact suppressor all would have taken the edge off. Those would add maintenance though, since lowering the gas intake would give the bolt opening less authority making the gun sluggish when it gets dirty. Since it was a rental gun, I'm sure they set it up for maximum reliability, because boy did that thing get dirty. For a PDW sized gun, I'd avoid 5.56. It works great in 14" barrels and up, but the tiny PDW barrels just have insane concussion that really need suppressors which kind of negate any length advantage of the short barrel. 9mm is less intense, doesn't lose or gain much with different barrel lengths, doesn't have excessive flash or recoil, and is just an all around mediocre option (not in a bad way). The MP5 ironically is more advance than many 'modern' 9mm sub guns. It uses a roller delayed blowback, which helps tame the recoil somewhat. It's HK replacement, the UMP series, uses a direct blowback. Same as the Uzi. Direct blowback is more violent, so for an equivalent weight gun and bolt has more recoil. The big ole sub guns from WW2 and such mitigate this by sheer weight and size. Modern subguns do neither in many cases. Being direct blowback and lightweight, they are really unpleasant. Good ones uses locking mechanisms that reduce recoil, sometimes in very clever ways. The KRISS vector bolt actually cycles rearward and downward, changing the recoil impulse dramatically. That's how it can have such a fast cyclic rate and not spray rounds into the ceiling. Compared to that, the MP5 is definitely inferior. I hope my rambling helps in some way. Subguns are fun, definitely try them out if you can find a range that has some.
The style of this video feels like a classic Discovery / History channel video. Very informative, lots of good examples and credited footage from reliable sources
I was thinking this same thing. In its 16" barrel Survival variant, it is very slim, light and about the same length as a Mk18 10.3" AR15 (probably about the same as an AK74SU as well). In fact, the RDB Survival variant was designed by Kel-tec to be a civilian PDW. Folks say bullpups are not PDWs, but the P90 is a bullpup.
@@dmk0210 The RDB survival kind of makes the P90 as well as "pistol" ARs irrelevant from a practical standpoint except where local laws prohibit carrying rifles but do allow pistols.
Way back in the 70’s and late 80’s the M3 Grease gun was the PDW for Armor crewmen (19E) and Tank Recovery crewmen. Sidearm was some type of 1911 pistol. The Grease gun could be partially disassembled and stored in a briefcase.
I understand you comment as the Tavor not being a PDW, but as a compact weapon able to used in a small space, it works well when not wanting to try to NFA a SBR. Also, I loved seeing the video from all the other great UA-cam channels I watch. You guys are a great community that I love watching for a wealth of information and great entertainment.
Short barreled AKs make great PDWs if you are going to spend a lot of time one a vehicle. Especially if the AK is in 7.62x39 which loses very little muzzle velocity from having a shortened barrel unlike 5.45 or 5.56.
The grease gun was a good one and a full size Uzi with a short barrel fit as well. Loved this video, you guys knocked it out of the park again, there are a lot of people that needed a clear definition and distinction on this subject and you did it perfectly!
@@9HoleReviews just come across your channel and loving the content. To the team behind this channel that edits and makes these thank you so much. Honestly superb content and greetings from London UK
Easy sub thank you, very educational for sure. I feel you have cleared alot of fog for me. This was so critical to help me understand what gun im looking for and what it might be used for.
![NATO PDW Trials: The Forbidden Saga of "MP7 vs P90" [ Collab with Oxide ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Py9MJUmdQ4o/mqdefault.jpg)
![NATO PDW Trials: The Forbidden Saga of "MP7 vs P90" [ Collab with Oxide ]](/img/tr.png)
![The AK12 - A failure to modernize. [Russia's newest standard rifle]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4cJbOAVDQxQ/mqdefault.jpg)
![H&K MP5 🇩🇪 modernization from 1966 to TODAY [Historical Timeline]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3NL46xSac1o/mqdefault.jpg)
Seems like some guys are looking at bullpups as a PDW. I want to reiterate that PDW's are dependent on an INTENDED DEFENSIVE ROLE.
The Tavor was designed as a general purpose rifle.
The MP5a3, UMP, etc were designed as a general purpose SMG.
While these can be pressed into PDW use (though the Tavor is more of a military PDW use), they were designed with a general purpose intent.
The Steyr TMP/ B&T MP9/TP9 does not explicitly say it's a PDW, but the layout seems to go the direction of the Vz61 where it's categorized as a machine pistol, but in reality is a ground-up type I design with Type III SMG internals.
can't wait for the truck gun video as my x95 goes with me when i travel up north but my mpx is always by my side as an every day urban roll for my vehicle.
I think that's the main stumbling block for people: whenever we discuss the weapons, we try to classify them by type or design style, whereas for all practical points and purposes, they are defined by their role. This requires people to make a few extra mental steps because these roles often share characteristics with other roles. For example, the desired compactness of the PDW for vehicle crews is technically a different requirement to the desired compactness of bullpup rifles and carbines for mechanized infantry, but since in both cases it is about compactness for vehicles (and there is in fact a bit of overlap in the venn diagrams here) people still have difficulty making the distinction between "compact enough to not get in the way when operating inside a vehicle as a primary role, while prodiving a modicum of firepower" and "compact enough to be carried and operated inside an IFV in case the need arises, while providing the tactical capabilities of a full-power combat rifle". The constant mental jumps between intended tactical application and practical application, as well as the overlapping thereof means that there isn't really a neat little box to put the PDW and human brains tend to have difficulty with things not going in neat little boxes. Then there is also the added problem of the PDW's intended tactical role not necessarily applying to civilian life as well, so for a person buying a PS-90, there doesn't seem to be much difference in application to any other SBR they might buy on the market.
Tricky to classify:
Swedish AK5D: Sub-carbine or Type 4 PDW?
Russian AS Val. (8" barrel) 9x39 integrally suppressed: Sub-carbine or Type 4 PDW?
German HK 237/337/437. (9" barrel) 300Blkout versions of G36C/416C/and 433C. Sub-carbines or Type 4 PDWs?
@@lucion511 as val is easy as it was intended for taking out guards, dogs and other stuff silently. It was not intended for personal defense.
I’d argue that the L22 is a Type 4 PDW, while it is labelled a carbine, it is used functionally as you would expect a PDW. I’d also argue that the PDW/carbine designations often over lap.
This video was a blast to watch. Flattered to sneak in.
dude that sick beat was not sneaking in.
Def started vibing when you came on the screen.
Executive Outcomes has trained you well.
Almost mag fumbled. Real nigga
Big chimp energy
Regarding the m1 carbine, my dad talked to a Korean war vet recently and asked him his opinion about people saying they would shoot people but it wouldn't stop them. He just said "you actually have to hit them. Then they go down." Excited for the series
I wonder if therefore this means all those eyewitness accounts of the 'heavy winter coats' in korea really were accounts of their ballistic drop off at distance, in actual trajectory
@@newerest1 9mm still goes tthru 4 inches of pine wood at 300 yrds so a jacket or coat...
@@newerest1Yeah it’s 100% guys missing.
😂
The PP-2000 is definitely a moon rock that I wish we saw more of.
ua-cam.com/video/YJ4EK6p_das/v-deo.html
Im pretty sure TSKIBSOO arsenal will be releasing one to the public this year but unless you are a Russian you cant buy it.
there are quite some interesting Russian smgs that deserve more attention
As a recovery operator in the army, you made me feel loved bringing up our struggles!
dude i was 91 series too! people will never understand the struggles till you're running cables in snatch blocks at 100 def f with a freaking M16A2
@@9HoleReviews in 94-96 at fort hood our mechanics were still issued m3 grease guns for use on the m88
This former 19K greatly appreciated your efforts!
@@9HoleReviews got two words for that, Henry: hell no!
I don't want to do that if I don't absolutely 100% have to. Life or death only.
Besides, I was a submariner, so had nuclear powered air conditioning!
Recovery operator? What is this person? (I was the 5-ton driver for the engineering company I was assigned to in the 7th ID (Light), '89-'91. Unit vehicles, the 5-ton, one 4 door commander's HMMWV, and 2 truck variant HMMWVs.)
Excellent! I’m a sucker for a well organized and presented video that provides history and background.
Looking forward to our next venture mit Deutschstahl ;)
Gut
Can i have M2 Carbine with drum mag?
Boss makes a dollar I make a dime, that's why I'm watching 9HR on company time.
haha it's Friday anyways :)
Same here.
Why dissbelief between boss and his employees are became trends again
Here here!!!
I think almost anyone watching this this early is
The ease of use is what makes the M1 carbine shine in my eyes. It’s what I use to teach my girlfriend about rifle marksmanship, the simple controls and light weight are invaluable when it comes to arming someone of her stature.
My older daughter, twenty nine, seems to have acquired mine, can't get it back. But its all good, except for the ammo thing
@@jakeroberts7435 it’s not all that hard to find, just ask your local gun shop if they could do a special order. PPU, wolf, etc it’s not all that expensive at where I’m at.
@@serioussoldier7977 Yeah, I've got to special order 30 cal. for the carbine, but its available. What a fun gun and it packs a wollup at close range, it will be a good zombie gun.
@@jakeroberts7435 definitely, my girlfriend was able to put down a 1” group with it and she’s a relatively new shooter.
@@serioussoldier7977 I love that gun, back in the sixties my dad had to qualify with weapons periodically, he was an Air Force pilot, that was one of the guns l got to shoot the hell out of at the range. Lots of surplus ammo back then, and the one my daughter has was a military hand me down, we've got some cool stuff, the hand me downs, my family was military for along time, back to Cuba anyway. But the little M1 is a dandy, my daughter shoots the heck out of it, and guess who supplies the ammo. 😞😝
it's a small thing, but 5.7*28 was recently adopted as a STANAG caliber, like 5.56 and 9*19. It's been classified as the STANAG 4509 since about the end of February this year (2021).
Good thing, too. 5.7 seems to be more danger than its worth to reload, but if the ammo becomes more available I'll do something with it. I like the round, it fits a niche, but right now isnt the time to invest in a completely new round to me.
@@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz It's a cool round, but its adoption seems weird to me.
It seems like a cartridge looking for a reason to exist.
Sure it penetrates soft armor... but who cares? How is that useful for NATO troops?
An FN 5.7 pistol is still large compared to even an Beretta 92, sure it's light for its size and holds a lot of ammo, but what's the real advantage over a 9mm service handgun when it's likely not going to be used much anyways?
Maybe for MP units where they don't want rifles being carried, but why go through the trouble of having a completely separate caliber for a subset of your troops?
I just don't see the advantage of something like a P90 when you can use something like a short barreled M4 and get better results in a bit larger package.
@@OfficialFedHater Video explains what are the downsides of short barrelled M4s: they are generally a bit less reliable, have a huge concussion blast and muzzle flash because the cartridge is meant for longer barrel. This is especially a problem if used in an enclosed environment.
@@yorhaunit8s Then throw a can on it.
I've not heard much about reliability issues, unless you're using something like a 7" barrel which is useless, I think it should be at least 12" imo, many people do 10.5", and I've not heard of many reliability issues with something like the mk18.
And even then, there's still 9mm smgs.
I just can't see a benefit to 5.7 in a military use that makes it worthwhile to adopt it.
@@OfficialFedHater it was supposed to counter Russian paratroopers with heavy body armor but they also failed at that by not penetrating said russian body armor
first time ive seen administrative results in a serious context.
He was featured in the Ron Jeremy/Taskforce 69 documentary. So…thats pretty serious.
I've only seen him in the most serious of instances.
I think this 4 type view of things does bring a lot of clarity to the niche platform. we as a community should adopt this standard. very well thought out and presented Henry & gang.
i completely agree that the 4 type view should be adopted. Im going to start calling my UDP-9 a type 3 PDW
@@jackmemphis777or just Rifle PDW
i dont think it helps. You have to consider weapon handling and ballistics for each individual gun anyways...
«I didn't hit nothing, I hit EVERYTHING» - Average АПС enjoyer.
On top of having an amazingly organized and informational video, Henry appears to be including the entire youtube gun community in a single video. This is such a legendary channel
Thank you for including the M-1 carbine! Give it the metal folding “paratrooper” stock and it’s really high on the list. Add the M-2 full auto kit and you can really burn through some “extra” ammo!
It'd be interesting to see a stocked FK BRNO Field Pistol or PSD to see how it performs in comparison to other stocked handguns and dedicated PDWs.
I was thinking the same, though I went a bit further and wondered how a type I or PCC in that caliber would do as well.
Probably similar to the M1 Carbine. Ballistically it is very similar to 30 Carbine
@Saturn frankly it seems to be a lot easier to bust out into the firearms market in the $7,500 to $20,000 range than it is to compete in the $750 to $2,000. I see the Field Pistol being a far more successful product for FK BRNO than the PSD from a business standpoint...
@Saturn Kind of depends on how much they depend on the pistols to stay afloat and how much infrastructure they have. I understand they landed some contracts too, so maybe they aren't as bad off as some assume. It's hard to accept not all products are made for the regular consumer, but that's the truth. Hell, B&T would be long gone if they depended only on the US civilian market, but they are far from going down.
@@spudgamer6049 I think a PDW in 7.5 would be awesome. A bit longer barrel to really give the 7.5’s already impressive ballistics even more velocity
Its been a while since I've owned a full length semi-auto rifle. I love PDWs and they pair excellently with my bolt guns
Same
Aside from a nostalgia factor ("I carried an M16 in 'Nam" as an example), I'm hard pressed to want a full length semi auto rifle aside from the SVT40.
Even a Mk12 SPR is a couple inches shorter than a standard M16A2.
It's interesting that NATO has adopted the 5.7x28 mm round as a standard. Hopefully we'll see more PDS development in the future!
Tell that to H&K and their MP7.
Music had a very Deus Ex Human Revolution vibe. Oh, the video on PDW's featuring several of my favorite YT'ers was pretty cool too I guess.
I could've sworn it was from XCOM.
It's literally a song from the DXHR soundtrack I'm pretty sure
@@OniGanon yeah i tot it has XCOM bgm vibes....
happy im not the only one who thought of DX
Yasss...DXHR main screen//menu OST, I wanna say.
No mention of the greatest PDW ever devised…
“The Dirt Squirrel” 🐿
@DomesticPenguin the honey badger is by far the most advanced but I don’t think it’s seen near enough combat to be called “the greatest”.
long live the dirty squirrel!
@DomesticPenguin Nah, that would be 'Sugar Weasel'.
What in the cat hair is a 'dirt squirrel?'
@Frankjoe1991 I believed the Sugar Weasel was the HB's only lesser (poor man's) cousin. Also offered by Q. Q looks like a cool ass company I'd be willing to choose for my first real gun but a lot of people have poor words for them hence my hesitance.
*Now this is quality content*
3:50 "Think of a combat medic, who is busy tending to patients" Medics and AT dudes in Ranger Battalion use the MK18 for this reason. Not exactly a PDW because they still need to keep up with the dudes in the platoon running full size rifles until they're needed for medic duties.
Everybody is too busy doing duties, until they need to fight. From the guy operating a radio, to the guy manning a vehicle, to the guy fucking with a map... I don't see the reason he is referring to.
A MK18 would fall under the Type 4 category in this video. I dont consider the MK18 nor the Krinov a PDW, but for lack of a better term I accept it.
M1 carbine is my favorite firearm of all time. I live in upper peninsula of Michigan and if I do anything in the woods it’s the rifle that comes with me. Solid deer rifle at 150 yards or less too
I just wish the ammo was more common. Online availability is rather common and it’s nice that defensive loads like Hornady critical defense and LeHigh Cavitator are available. But in brick and mortar stores, it’s frequently out of stock, even before Covid. Places just don’t care to keep it stocked because so few people/guns shoot the caliber.
@@pb7087 thats the exact reason i sold mine several years ago... switched to 9mm PCC's i really like them but they dont have the feel of the m1 carbine
@@pb7087 I Can find ammo pretty regularly up here at Dunham’s sports stores. Online is pretty common as well like you said.
How’s things in the UP? It’s one of the areas I’d consider retiring to. However, I live in Ohio. My wife of 35 years, is a diehard OSU fan. She’s threatened divorce at the minimum if any such relocation to the Land of Evil occurs.
I think we can agree - PDW's are some of the most fun to shoot weapons out there.
I like the way you have broken down the classifications. I think that the reason there is a lot of blead over is that "PDW" is really a way of using a weapon rather than a defined weapon class.
Now we need to see PDW's like the p90 on the 500 yard course!!!
500 yards? That's a rifle threat. PDW is 1 or 2 blocks.
@@WALTERBROADDUS yet they still find themselves being used at longer ranges. Look at M1 carbine at Korean War
@@donh1572 More of a misuse.... Asking it to be a assault rifle. Still, better than a Grease Gun or a Thompson.
@@WALTERBROADDUS Maybe, but you never know the situation you get thrown in and you work with what you have. In addition plenty of long range marksmen competition over the decades involved the M1 carbine. Plus pdw have been used on the 500yard course before. So let’s see what the true potential of these guns are
@@WALTERBROADDUS the 5.7 out of the P90 with the high velocity and flat trajectory makes for surprising accuracy for a small package.
The SR-2 Veresk is a very interesting weapon I'd consider a PDW, Personally I love type II's (Stechkin lover forever), I'll be using this system of classification from now on!
Definitely one of the most coolest well informed channels in The game 👏🏻
Thank :)
Ironically i was dreaminh of how to classify PDWs last night and today this video appears to explain with all the details. Never thought there were 4 types, only believed of the type 1 PDWs
I like the classifications even though the term PDW will always be a loose one. This is more befitting to it then the previous way it was used in the last decade or 2. I think this fits more generally on what several manufacturers and organizations have been looking for compared to the 90's definition
I like how this is a greatest hits of all the various gun youtubers. Cool video guys.
I see no issue with calling the M1 carbine a PDW. It fits the intended usage perfectly. Anyways, IG gang is here.
Right. I mean the M1 Carbine is very compact...compared to the M1 Garand. Everything has to be considered in context.
For the era, yes it was a PDW.
It's probably the first type 1 PDW.
Yeah absolutely agree. Compare it to an M1 Garand and i becomes obvious immediately how much more compact & light this gun really is (especially folding stock variant)
In my book, doctrinal usage always trumps design parameters in weapons classification
I absolutely love these types of videos from you, they're always entertaining and informative. You can see the effort and time that was put through. I also just love the pdw class of weapons.
This is how you start a Friday off on the right foot.
#newslettergang
@@9HoleReviews Absolutely. And now that I've watched it, this is the who's who of top tier gun personalities. Fantastic!
@@TheGunner11 yeah def. These are great content creators to work with!
Great breakdown of the different types of pdw. This video exceeded my expectations of how you would cover this topic. Very well done. Ive got the type 3 covered with the Scorpion Evo 3 S2 micro and the type 4 with a DDM4V7 PDW, and didn't have much interest in the other types.......until now. You expanded my knowlege, thought process and appreciation for some others that I had overlooked.
I love it when way more professional folks with more reach and better production values make content that reflects the shower thoughts I've been wrestling with over how to explain or classify PDWs.
Awesome vid, also loving all the mentions/features of other creators footage - will have to check out their ones I wasn't already aware of. 👍
You guys NEVER fail to make sure everything is explained in detail. Thank you i been trying to explain PDWs to my wife... NOW ..she gets it...THANK YOU!!!!!
This is the best education channel for firearms
I’d love to a see presentation on Marine Corps arms & tactics for “Fighting on Ship” - such as repelling borders, and re-securing a boarded ship.
This is my favorite gun channel! I have a 10.5 in ch ar and I really understand the “blast “ that it gives off especially indoors. M1/m2 carbine definitely has become my favorite pdw type rifles! Keep up the fantastic work!!!
I have a 12.5 w/ Surefire close tined SOCOM flash hider.
The blast isnt as bad as I thought it would be, but I know that if I had to let loose I'm going deaf and maybe a bit concussed.
Arguably one of the best videos I’ve ever watched, I still think the M1 carbine is the perfect PDW
The M1 Carbine is one of the most finely balanced firearms I’ve ever held.
How reliable is it though? Can you fire two magazines without malfunction?
@@chosentwice1839 I’m just saying it balanced well when shouldered. Also for it’s time I’d say it was okay.
@@chosentwice1839 source on that malfunctioning part?
@@joshuajoaquin5099 bro just type M1 reliability into the same application you’re on right now.
If you asked anyone on this thread would you rather have a) the M1 Carbine or b) an AK-74su we all know what people would choose
Great vid guys! Always had a thing for "In-Betweeners" as I call them- whether DMRs and Automatic Rifles or PDWs. 5.7 type II's starting to come on line with the Ruger 5.7 FCU - MP57 and hopefully Flux will get around to it, not optimal but low hanging fruit .
CAA should have an MCK in the works for the Ruger 57. That would be awesome because it would be in the same vein as the Hellcat variant they are going to release as in it is meant for a specific size gun. Going from handgun to braced subgun in seconds. That is a combo I could get behind.
People who argue about what makes a DMR are worse than the PDW argue crowd.
Specifically, a DMR must and only can be semi-auto. Completely ignoring the company level marksman found with a scoped Springfield rifle in WW2. That role is a DMR and not a sniper.
@@SlavicCelery more or less. There's some potential for crossover between the DMR and Automatic Rifle role like you see with the M38 in Marine use. Both Chuck Pressburg and Larry Vickers have talked about the HK21 with 1.5-6x optics used that way, which of course would make even more sense with an HK11. Then you have the Swiss DMR school teaching what they call "Sniping 4th Generation" ,which essentially creates a beaten zone with a DMR. Lot of flexibility with those two weapons.
@@jamesbridges7750 absolutely. There was someone insisting that a G3 could never be used as a DMR...because it wasn't "accurate" enough. And DMR's have to be built specific, not a role.
Can’t wait to see some more PDW content! Would love to see the DDM4PDW with a law folder, and a tiger PC charger with a brace.
The quality of those videos is truely impressive.
5:08 is actually designated as a WCFD.
War
Crimes
Facilitating
Device
By that metric, so was the 1911. The US has comitted its fair share of war crimes during all wars and other conflicts it's been a part of.
(including making the sun rise twice in one day on Japan, twice, during WWII).
@@44R0Ndin I'm not from the US, but if I'd have to wager, the US saved an entire population of Jews from war crimes
and stopped Japan from committing even more war crimes in East.
You know nothing 44R0Ndin, and that Anti-Western stuff you learned from your lesbian dance theory wont help you prove your point.
jk jk :3 teehee
As far as war crimes go, the Luger would have been involved in the fewest.
The Nagant and TT33 on the other hand.......
@@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballzor the arisaka family of rifles
Great video. I would love to see a video focused on a Personal Defense Case. 3 or 4 firearms that a may be put into a carry case for personal defense for a home, car, or open area with quick access. A all in one emergency case.
Your channel's presentation style, creative ideas (Pick One & Japanese Gun Porn series), and data logging (Practical Accuracy Tests) bring a new and refreshing breath of air to the world of guntubers. Thank you both for your content.
Excellent discussion on the PDW class weapons. Well defined.
There are different PDWs for different roles. Type 4 for rear echelon ground troops. Maybe a type 2 for pilots. Type 1 for administrative staff and Type 3 for tank, ship, or armored crews.
Each will have its own purpose and will be specific. This is a great analysis of the PDW class.
Great job as always guys!
'What weapons do you think are PDWs'
South Korea: *America*
OOF
Great video and explanations of the different kinds of PDW. I love my PDW's PS90, MP5,MP5K,MPX, Kriss Vectors in 45 ACP, 10mm and my Daniel Defense DDM4 PDW in 300 Black out.
This is the most comprehensive and highest quality video on this topic I have ever seen. Well done.
The ski mask for the AKS-74-U was a nice touch. Masterpiece.
The VZ-61 was designed from the ground up with mechanized troops in mind. It was always intended to have a stock option. It is not a shortened form of a preexisting design. With these facts in mind, I would say that the VZ-61 is a Type I PDW rather than a Type II.
Great video, but PDWs are my focus, and I would like to add/amend certain parts:
I think the most important classifications are by purpose, not how they came to be.
In addition, the primary mission set of a PDW is in the name, a personal defense weapon. There are few situations outside of war that involve defensive shooting past 100 yards. The best PDW is the most firepower in the smallest controllable package.
Amongst those who have used them in battle, the MP7 and P90 are not well liked, and while the ammunition availability is a problem, it is not the primary issue. Both rounds are anemic, they do not do enough immediate disruptive tissue damage, and do not actually have increased functional ranges. The 5.7 is better than the 4.6, but they have failed tier one guys way too many times. I have heard nothing but hate from those who have shot people with the MP7, which is much different than steel or paper.
The Flux Raider, not shown nor mentioned in the video, does use the M17/p320 operating system, but other than those assemblies is much more of a ground up approach, rather than a stocked or braced pistol, or a conversion. It currently is the lightest, smallest, fastest controllable package with the most firepower. Again, these are the most important attributes for a PDW.
Thank you for an awesome video on a forgotten topic.
I thought the Flux MP17 is a conversion because you just slap a regular M17 upper onto the Raider lower...
@@v12ts.gaming Sure, it could be classified as a conversion, but most conversions also use the lower or frame of the pistol, building around it, instead of just using the operating system.
@@BenfromFlux with that, are you in Pro or Contra to the belief that the MP17 is a Type 2? Because by definition, Type 2 PDW's are mainly based on regular pistols. In the case of MP17, it is indeed based on the M17/P320 pistol hence the name. So naturally, it's a Type 2.
As an ex Panzergrenadier mechanic my pdw was an HK 17 pistol with a secondary weapon of an MP5.
This sums up the topic nicely and would love a further exploration of each type. I know info is limited, but the Knight's Armament PDW chambered in 6x35mm definitely should be included as either a Type I or Type IV PDW.
LOVE the use of video from others in the community. Thanks for supporting the other channels too!
This video rocks. I feel like the M1 carbine is very ahead of it's time in this regard. It was the original type 1 PDW. Very important when you consider how many troops are serving in a non Frontline infantry role.
That was an excellent transition in the intro when you were firing the p90 but then turned around and started talking.
ian's the biggest goofball when you drop him on a range 🤣
This channel just keeps getting better and better! Great topics. Great presentation. Wonderful cinematography. Well done, gents!
People have argued that M1/M2/M3 carbine also falls in the category of assault rifle as it matches the progenitor of this category STG 44 in cartridge similarity, era, wide field usage ie not limited to rear echelon troops, similar dimension and similar versions.
There really isn't a huge amount of similarity in the cartridges. The 8mm Kurz is just far enough up the bell curve of muzzle energy to make it a true rifle cartridge, the .30 Carbine trails behind by a considerable margin. The round closest to the .30 Carbine and the one it directly went up against in combat in Korea was the 7.62 Tokarev.
I think the M2 carbine is much more akin to an assault rifle than to a pdw. However, this is where the application based vs. technical merit based definition difference becomes tricky. The M2 carbine is both an assault rifle and a pdw because both terms are based off different categories of definitions
@@zoiders it's closer to 7.92 Kurz than it is to 7.62x25. That said, it's close to being right in the middle of those two
In terms of muzzle energy it is on par with 5.45, but due to poor bullet design it loses energy really quick. Still a 357 mag from a pistol at 100 yards. In terms of energy
Edit: added it being close the the middle part
@@borkwoof696 Its not effective at the same range as intermediate cartridges so its not an assault rifle.
@@zoiders says who? There is no set definition for an intermediate cartridge. Also, what constitutes "effective"? .30 carbine fits between a .30-06 and a .45 with ample distance to either. It is literally, by definition "intermediate". Whether it‘s a good or a mediocre intermediate cartridge has no effect on whether it‘s an assault rifle or not.
I have 2 ps90s. 1 with 10" barrel with a permanently afixed 6" suppressor, thus making it legally NOT an SBR, ant not requiring a fed tax stamp and the other is a 16" barrel that fires Lazer like accurate to 100 meters. Absolutely love both.
The fact that y’all used Oxide footage makes me so happy
Newsletter early release gang: WE RISE!
Last. If you ain't cheating you ain't trying
Amazing content. 10 out of 10. I'll be watching this again.
For me, pdws are clearly weapons or versions of weapons that have a handy, compact guide in e.g. vehicles or tight situations such as personal protection enable or facilitate stretching , weapons over a certain length are more difficult to wield . Also, in my opinion, weapons that can fold in the shoulder rest, for example, to be more manageable. Of course you could also say that an AK or G36 with a folding stock would be a pdw, maybe for some, but it's all about compact, handy and short design. Also worth mentioning are automatic pistols with a grip, buttstock and silencer, and depending on how long the weapon lasts (we assume that the buttstock and silencer can be easily removed or folded in) this would imo also be a pdw.
Please make one for each and every main weapon category a.k.a "Battle Rifles" "Assault Rifles" "Pistols" etc. Great video as usual!
Love your content, thanks!
Thanks man!
My definition of a PDW is watching John Wick knock 20 dudes in armor with a SIG MPX.
As a non combatant mobile comm operator adjacent to front lines or stationed at remote staging areas, my PDW / Assault Rifle at the IDF was the IMI Galil SAR aka "Glilon". I was able to continuously and consistently and comfortably carry it on person 24/7 in just about any space or situation.
Later as a volunteer at an off road first response police unit my PDW was a M1 Carbine on poly furniture with a folding stock (similar to the Galil / FN FAL folding stock form). Both were easy to handle getting in and out of vehicles or operating in tight spaces yet still offered a rifle platform (Well, the Galil SAR had a 15 inch barrel and the M1 Carbine had its quirky ammo and rather long barrel but still effective PDW packages for the given purpose).
I like how y'all put every creator of every clip y'all used, into the video at the end there, well done video boys, well done 👏 👏 👏.
Carrying the Jerry can before shooting is legit - awesome
an excellent practical handicap.
Love the M1 Carbine, and yeah it was most definitely a compact and lightweight carbine for its day in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. As far as PDW's go though, yeah the M1 Carbine seems to be the OG, but it seems outclassed in most every respect. CERTAINLY for size, given it has an 18" barrel, even a folded-up M1A1 Carbine is probably bulky compared to just about all other options mentioned in the vid. Something it might dominate in is distance, given the long-radius aperture sights and long barrel. It might prove to be more precise out to 200m+ compared to an MP5K, perhaps P90, and MAYBE AKs-74u although I really don't know. I'm now extremely curious as to how all these different platforms perform at longer ranges, even though the platform itself is probably meant for defensive usage at closer ranges. Also, for the 5.7 and that 4mm cartridge, these modern cartridges also aim to have AP functionality which 9mm and .30 Carbine probably lack in.
Not sure if the M1 Carbine can truly be considered a PDW in today's context, especially since it's longer than an M4 Carbine with its buttstock fully extended. M1A1, on the other hand, that's a maybe but that ridiculously long barrel without any bullpup implementation makes it kind of a laughable compared to modern interpretations of PDW. Full-stock M1 Carbine doesn't seem particularly useful as a tanker firearm and I think it'd be rather long and bulky to deal with in a vehicle, at least compared to the other options. Yeah it's very lightweight, can sling it and forget it quite easily, but that bulk... that length... yes it's quite short compared to 24-31" barrels of WWII standard issue rifles but nowadays 14-20" is the status quo for standard-issue front-line assault rifles and 18" is towards the end of that spectrum. The overall length of a full-stock M1 Carbine seems to be about 4" shorter than an M16, and is even a tad longer than a typical full-sized AK.
During in the mid-late 20th century, 100%, I'm down with calling it an extremely handy little compact, lightweight PDW. I'm really not surprised that it even seen a fair bit of front-line usage to my understanding even though it was meant to be for soldiers who didn't think it likely to have to use it in combat. Truckers, artillery, etc. Triple-capacity over typical bolt-actions it would face, soft recoil means quick follow-up shots, it would be outdone in close quarters compared to SMGs but out to more mid-range distances like 200-300m it would perform better than SMGs (110gr at 1990 ft/s, .30 Carbine has a 33mm case length which is the same as .357 and .44 Magnum, .30 Carbine could practically be regarded as a rimless .30 Magnum cartridge), and so on a variety of levels I think it's very well-suited as a frontline firearm in the context of WWII and Korea. By Vietnam though, with bolt-actions having largely been replaced by SMGs and assault rifles and semi-auto rifles like the SKS... its advantages start to wane. The upgrade to M2 Carbine, doubling the capacity to the half-century standard of 30 rounds and allowing for the option of full-auto (even though it's not too controllable due to the platform being so utterly lightweight), it can make it more competitive against assault rifles and SMGs.
So yeah, love the M1 Carbine, M1A1 Carbine seems very cool and could potentially still be within PDW territory in spite of that stupidly long barrel, but I just have a hard time seeing the M1 Carbine being an actual PDW in the last roughly 30 years or so (which happens to be about how old the FN P90 is). It's got the lightweight aspect, but really, it ain't too much lighter than the M4 Carbine and it's also a fair bit longer. I wager that 30-round M2 Carbine magazines are also not as light as a typical 1.1lb (500g) loaded STANAG magazine, not to mention the M2/M2 Carbine itself doesn't have the greatest reputation in the world for reliability and is probably more prone to malfunctions than any PDW mentioned in the video, and also more prone to malfunctions than the aforementioned M4 or M4A1. God bless the M1 Carbine, it served so very well during the bloodiest war in human history, also in Korea, and in Vietnam. Utterly fantastic carbine that any civilian gun owner should be proud to own, and is probably the closest to a PDW that most gun owners in the world will ever be able to obtain.
Here in Canada I've owned an M1 Carbine before, love it, though I think a Chinese QBZ-97 (which I'm proud to say I've handled one before but not shot one sadly) would be more of a PDW, as would be the Israeli Tavor, both bullpups. But also, both are basically 'full-sized bullpup' platforms, and probably generally not regarded as PDWs, which is why in TODAY'S climate I have a hard time maintaining the M1 Carbine's position as a PDW even though it's essentially the first or one of the first ever made. AKS-74U is probably as-good or better than the M1/M2 Carbine in every way except for weight (only SLIGHTLY heavier), with the possible exception of accuracy out to 200-300m or so. At 500m though, pretty sure the AKS-74U actually HAS a rear sight with that distance, but the M1/M2 Carbine has 300yd (270m) at best (in my experience with my own M1 Carbine), so technically speaking at that sort of half-kilometer distance the AK is probably better simply on the virtue of its rear sight being capable of going beyond 270m even though I don't have high hopes of the AKS-74U having much accuracy way out to that distance. Still, better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
I like how you came out and mentioned Logistics and reliability separate. There is a huge mess as a lot of problems with a weapon can arise. Logistics is usually figured into ammunition availability but can become confusing as a lot of people never think "Wow, that's a lot of ammo spent, what does he have left". PDWs are NOT meant for long term engagements without specific requirements met. Often for tankers this means you got just enough to suppress and escape to mount a new tank and get back to the job your designated, while the military carrys the ammunition you may not receive supplies for a few days, and you must plan ahead. People think the Hollywood movies are great and people just blindly spray and have enormous reload potential over the fight, skip to the next battle zone (logistics is boreing but nessisary, otherwise a gun is nothing more then a interesting looking club). Realistically the more ammo your packing then defeats the purpose of a PDW as your taking more ammo to make up for the lighter weapon which needs to be carried and creates a hard to move frame. This keeps the soldier the same weight, but the weapon isnt specialised in anything other then quick enguagements to take advantage of surprise or the minor advantages of the PDW selected.
Love your videos, you do hit the points that make the weapon specific and unique, while also designating a purpose and history. I'd argue though that before PDW semi-auto there are also stocked revolver and revolver carbine platforms that made the first attempt at this, although it was lower in scale and practicality of its time, often were issued to mounted troops and send to soldiers who needed to be more mobile then the main battle line.
Speaking of a revolver stocked or revolver carbine could be interesting to see your take on them, your a terror on the targets, I wonder how far you can hit with them. Anywho, you got more pressing things I'm sure, wish you the best in this time, hope you have a wonderful day!
Beautiful video man. I was always scared to admit I didn't know jack about this category - and now it makes perfect sense. The best I could arrive at from the internet and "Fudd Lore" was that it was a "Sub machine gun....but like, maybe NOT full auto?, sometimes with a rifle round and.....kinda small?"
Can't wait to see the P90 out to 500yrds video ;D
Looking forward to seeing these covered in more depth.
One of the best Type 3 PDW'S I've seen and shot is the MP9, simply great you can get a Holster for it as well, however 9mm doesn't go through armor so if you need to get through body armor you can always try throwing it at them. 9mm problems aside the nature of it allows for easy deployment, quickly acquiring your target and taking care of the problem. Put a Red Dot on. Hack off the Iron Sights, attach a Mini Suppressor, and get to work,
Really awesome collaboration guys! Just in time to help my friend choose his pdw/bag gun!
I have and love my somewhat modernized VZ61 and am very confident with it but its not a platform I recommend to others for the same purpose. I have a small stature, small hands and train often on its very unique manual of arms. Amazing little gat though.
How about classifications of guns next? (AR, SMG, LMG, DMR, SR, SG etc.) I want to know what the differences of them are
Love the FLUX defense RAIDER!!! Perfect PDW for home defense
Excellent, thank you. DiggingForFacts is correct, role determines use. A grunt's role is basically offensive. If he's serious he's using an MG. A commander's weapon is his unit and a radio. So too an advisor's. In the sandbox in the '70s, I had to get in and out of various vehicles all day doing readiness inspections. My PDW was a cross drawn (didn't catch on hatches) CZ75 with 3 mags of carefully sequenced ammo. When the 5.7x28 pistol came out I could carry 61 rounds and make head shots at 50M. Yet in a clandestine role, my preferred CC PDW is a hickory cane that I can hit with faster than anyone I've met can draw their CC. But your best PDW weapon is still not to get into a PDW situation. The first rule of defense is: don't be there.
I always like to think of PDW as a "usage term" or "usage classification", one you'd use along a proper classification, so for example the P90 and MP7 are SMGs first and PDWs in their used role.
This way also allows for them to be used in other roles since the usage term ofc only applies when they're actually used as a PDW and if not the real term (i.e carbine, SMG, Machine pistol etc) applies.
Great video, I love the amount of featured channels and every time someone mentions the M1 Carbine and LP08 as the OG PDWs they already got the right idea in my mind :)
As a USACE employee in memphis we are briefed annually about threat of new Madrid earthquake. They know it will happen and be 6.0 or bigger. Corps helped memphis do an assignment and found most of the infrastructure in memphis, including our own assets, will be taken out at 6.0. So we are told to maintain a pack because the highways will be taken out. If I had to hike home I'd be crossing 3rd street, south memphis, east memphis, well known trouble spots. All I'll say is I made sure I know what a pdw is...
My man with all the portuguese kit in the world. Hope you are well!
With SMGs, depending on the design, I feel that often they are PDWs already. Heck, besides urban SWAT and PDW roles, where else would you use SMGs?
You look at the micro Uzi, they ADDED to the gun just so you have a left hand later.
A modern, lightened Uzi replacement with delay blowback and shooting say, 7.5 FK and 9mm or 10mm, would be a great PDW.
It should be noted that the Micro-Uzi was a development of the Uzi pistol, hence why it is a closed-bolt submachine gun unlike the rest of the Uzi SMGs. All they did was add a folding stock and the fun switch to turn the Uzi pistol into the Micro-Uzi.
@@classifiedad1 Yup, the micro-Uzi ironically has to be understood as a Glock 18 or a Beretta 93r, rather than a micro-Uzi.
With modern SMGs, I'd agree. Historically, SMGs are of similar size and weight to their accompanied service rifles. Thompsons, PPSHs, M38s, and the MP40 (to a lesser extent) were not particularly light or small. Even the original Uzi with its wood stock was a beastly chunk of a gun. Modern designs have gotten away from these full weight pistol caliber SMGs, but personally I find that they may have thrown the baby out with the bathwater. Shooting an original full sized Uzi next to an MP5 really opened my eyes to how nice those heavier guns were. I could very easily keep long bursts on target with the Uzi, but struggled beyond extremely close range (within 15m) with the MP5.
@@jacobackley502 OK, now you're just showing off...
I guess I'm not surprised? Is a 9mm cartridge any lighter than 556? How is MP5 compared to other modern SMGs?
@@ABCantonese the only full auto 5.56 rifle I've fired (I don't count the full sized machine guns I've fired in the Navy, they recoiled about the same as a sewing machine) was actually very unpleasant. The cyclic rate was way too fast, the rifle was overgased to hell, and the muzzle flash was too bright for the indoor range I shot it at. That gun was a registered pre-86 m16 lower with a 12 inch barrel upper and a red dot that wasn't zeroed in the slightest.
Now having said all my excuses, it's very easy to see how with a little tweaking it could be great. An adjustable gas block, heavier buffer, and a compact suppressor all would have taken the edge off. Those would add maintenance though, since lowering the gas intake would give the bolt opening less authority making the gun sluggish when it gets dirty. Since it was a rental gun, I'm sure they set it up for maximum reliability, because boy did that thing get dirty.
For a PDW sized gun, I'd avoid 5.56. It works great in 14" barrels and up, but the tiny PDW barrels just have insane concussion that really need suppressors which kind of negate any length advantage of the short barrel.
9mm is less intense, doesn't lose or gain much with different barrel lengths, doesn't have excessive flash or recoil, and is just an all around mediocre option (not in a bad way).
The MP5 ironically is more advance than many 'modern' 9mm sub guns. It uses a roller delayed blowback, which helps tame the recoil somewhat. It's HK replacement, the UMP series, uses a direct blowback. Same as the Uzi. Direct blowback is more violent, so for an equivalent weight gun and bolt has more recoil. The big ole sub guns from WW2 and such mitigate this by sheer weight and size.
Modern subguns do neither in many cases. Being direct blowback and lightweight, they are really unpleasant. Good ones uses locking mechanisms that reduce recoil, sometimes in very clever ways. The KRISS vector bolt actually cycles rearward and downward, changing the recoil impulse dramatically. That's how it can have such a fast cyclic rate and not spray rounds into the ceiling. Compared to that, the MP5 is definitely inferior.
I hope my rambling helps in some way. Subguns are fun, definitely try them out if you can find a range that has some.
Tackling the tricky questions with a well produced, well organized video. Got to love it
The style of this video feels like a classic Discovery / History channel video. Very informative, lots of good examples and credited footage from reliable sources
Anything is a PDW if you’re brave enough… wait
Something like a Kel-Tec RDB in the 'survival' configuration is probably a good candidate for a 5.56 pdw.
I was thinking this same thing. In its 16" barrel Survival variant, it is very slim, light and about the same length as a Mk18 10.3" AR15 (probably about the same as an AK74SU as well). In fact, the RDB Survival variant was designed by Kel-tec to be a civilian PDW. Folks say bullpups are not PDWs, but the P90 is a bullpup.
@@dmk0210 The RDB survival kind of makes the P90 as well as "pistol" ARs irrelevant from a practical standpoint except where local laws prohibit carrying rifles but do allow pistols.
Way back in the 70’s and late 80’s the M3 Grease gun was the PDW for Armor crewmen (19E) and Tank Recovery crewmen.
Sidearm was some type of 1911 pistol.
The Grease gun could be partially disassembled and stored in a briefcase.
I understand you comment as the Tavor not being a PDW, but as a compact weapon able to used in a small space, it works well when not wanting to try to NFA a SBR.
Also, I loved seeing the video from all the other great UA-cam channels I watch. You guys are a great community that I love watching for a wealth of information and great entertainment.
Short barreled AKs make great PDWs if you are going to spend a lot of time one a vehicle. Especially if the AK is in 7.62x39 which loses very little muzzle velocity from having a shortened barrel unlike 5.45 or 5.56.
AKMSU and ACE 31 would be a good example...
Hope we might see the MSMC in the future 😋
7:59 I love him loading that round backwards lmao
The grease gun was a good one and a full size Uzi with a short barrel fit as well. Loved this video, you guys knocked it out of the park again, there are a lot of people that needed a clear definition and distinction on this subject and you did it perfectly!
Hey, love the channel. Would you be interested in covering the 6.5 CBJ-MS round at all? And seeing if its performance matches the claims?
The CBJ-MS was never official produced en masse for service and only 2 prototypes were ever produced.
hell yeah looking forward to watching it
#newslettergang :)
@@9HoleReviews just come across your channel and loving the content. To the team behind this channel that edits and makes these thank you so much. Honestly superb content and greetings from London UK
The M3 Grease Gun comes to mind. It fits the profile of a type 2-3 and was issued to the same non-combat roles in WW2.
to me , the me grease is a type 3.
Easy sub thank you, very educational for sure. I feel you have cleared alot of fog for me. This was so critical to help me understand what gun im looking for and what it might be used for.
Glad you enjoyed the episode!