I just wanted to say that my I looooved the entire moria sequence. When they walked into the giant halls and the music played I'm literally drawn to tears because it's so incredible. And when they are outside crying once Gandalf falls, pippin is on the ground just sobbing unbearably because he feels guilty over Gandalfs death, since he knocked the skeleton in and started the chain of events
Boromir is one of my favorites too. His story arc and death is one or the more moving elements in LOTR for me. It's also great how his story continues to have ripple effects throughout the following movies as well, and wasn't just the easy: He dead. Forget him. The end. The end of Fellowship gripped me emotionally even more after watching ROTK and re-watching, because of what his death caused in the long run.
The three people Frodo offers the ring to are probably the only three who have the will to refuse it. That says a lot about Frodo knowing who the better people are and who he can trust.
You're wrong about the Moria Dwarves, they were trying to escape from the mines at the end, but were locked in, the record makes it clear "we cannot get out, a fire in the deep", the doors could be opened and closed from the inside, the password was only needed from the outside. The book makes it clear that the colony was actually there for years, Balin was successful in routing the orcs at first and they repopulated the upper levels. However in doing so the Balrog was stirred and provided the orcs with leadership, not to mention the fact that the Dwarves could not stand up to it.
I hope that someday we will indeed get to see your "no really" full treatment on the whole trilogy. Make a 10-hour video, @Lorerunner; you know you want to!
While I'm a little tired that New Zealand has been 'middle earth' for almost two decades. It makes me proud to hear all the innovation my country has contributed to film and art in general with this trilogy. Brings a tear to my eye, in all honesty.
It's strongly indicated both in the book and in the film that the chamber of Marzibul, where Balin's tomb resides, is where the last dwarves of the Moria colony made their last stand. They had tried to escape but were either killed by goblins or by the watcher in the water (It killed Oin) and so were forced back until there was no where left to run. They knew they were going to die there but were simply determined to kill as many goblins as they could.
In fairness, Archengeia, if you properly ruminated on everything LOTR and The Hobbit on their own, the amount of R&D required for these videos would be astronomical.
I second that,in addition it is a great pity Peter Jackson didnt do a small scene if only on the deleted scenes a small scene of the Fog on the barrow downs in the barrow wights lair and the scouring of the shire a great pity!
"Low-tier" magic and magical realism are, IMHO, far more enjoyable than "high-tier" fantasies. I hate the "cartoon magic" in most fantasy. I like magic that the characters can doubt the existence of. The kind of thing you could (perhaps with some effort) imagine existing in our world.
Yeah. A Japanese friend of mine asked me what was the big deal about Gandalf and the magic of Middle Earth; why was it so weak? "Light comes out of his staff like it's just a big flashlight! In Japanese fantasy, the wizards are much more powerful." I didn't know your phrase "lower tier." I tried to explain that it was more realistic and therefore more believable. With weaker magic the stakes are higher. He didn't buy it. He had just explained to me a key difference between Asian fantasy (including China, i.e. the Monkey King) and Tolkien's work. Eastern and Western fantasy function at different levels, with Eastern fantasy being more abstract.
It didn't occur to me until watching your rumination on hobbit 3 but I think the reason gandalf doesn't want to deal with the fact that the ring has been found at the beginning of this movie is because he is still guilty of the consequences of him pushing thorin into the quest to reclaim erebor.
Re: Elrond, it's strongly implied that the Ring's capacity to corrupt is directly proportional to the power of the person it's corrupting. Smeagol and Bilbo and Frodo take a very long time to corrupt because they are so weak; Boromir is corrupted more quickly (over the course of several weeks/months) because he is the most powerful* member of the fellowship. If someone like Gandalf or Elrond or Galadriel were to touch the Ring? They'd be corrupted *instantly*. At Mount Doom, Elrond's refusal to force Isildur *was* an act of strength, in service of "good." The urge to violence that you think he was weak to avoid would have been to give in to the corrupting influence of the Ring. The weakness of Isildur (and later Boromir) is that he allowed himself to be corrupted; the strength of Elrond (and later Gandalf and Galadriel) is that he did not. *Aragorn is never tempted by the Ring, which is... odd. In the books its because he's very much a Mary Sue cut straight out of a Medieval Romance, but in the movies he is a proper character with a proper character arc. He really should have been tempted more clearly by the Ring, though (obviously) not to the same degree or extent as Boromir.
Couldn't the allure of the ring be coupled to a person's personal drive? If you are ambitious and have a lot of power, the power of the ring becomes more harder to resist. Knowing this, it can be considered a personal victory to resist the allure (Galadriel) or a reason to avoid the confrontation (Gandalf the Grey). Hobbits usually aren't powerhungry but do like nice and pretty things. So it's not their weakness, but it's their lack of megalomany why they get consumed by the ring less fast. I do think Aragorn was tempted, that's one of the reasons he let Frodo go: to get distance between them. Also, his bromance with Gandalf learned him he should avoid the confrontation. Samwise's only motives are a nice house with a nice garden and a blushing Rosie (and observing what the ring did to Boromir, Frodo, Smeagol and others might even have lowered his interest). (Has anyone already noticed the similarities between Samwell Tarly and Samwise Gamsee :-)
What Eelco de Boer said. The reason hobbits take so long to be corrupted by the Ring's power is that the Ring has very little to tempt them with. Everyone in Middle Earth usually wants power for one reason or another. Boromir wanted the power to defend his people, Faramir wanted to impress his father, Galadriel would have wanted it to defeat Sauron and Gandalf likewise admits that he refuses to take it because he would "use it from the desire to do good". Hobbits, on the other hand, are simple folk. They like to eat, drink, garden and smoke their pipes. The promise of "power" holds no sway over them because they already have everything that they want. Like Lore said in the video, Lobelia Sackville-Baggins is probably the closest thing to "power-hungry" the Shire has to offer, and even that just extends to her pestering Bilbo over who gets to inherit Baggend.
Arsene Lupin Aragorn is tempted in the movies, briefly, when Frodo offers it to him. We don't get to see what he thought about in that moment,, but later we are told that his reluctance was due to him feeling responsible for Isildur's failure to destroy The Ring, as his heir. He thinks he has the same weakness, and that humbles him to the point where he never considers trying to use the thing.
My intuition is that a large part of the Ring's corrupting influence operates through wielding its power - the more you use, and the more effectively you wield it, the more it seduces you to Sauron's will - or to become like Sauron. The Hobbits are unable to wield the Ring's power effectively, so are not much exposed to it.
I think a lot of people share your opinion on LOTR. Tolkien is famous primarily for his *world building.* Whether he's also a good writer depends on who you ask, but it's his setting that stands out.
If he wasn't a fantastic author, nobody would care about his world. It's his writing that makes the reader interested in his world, in the first place.
It's no coincidence that LOTR is the most famous re-read books in the world. Nobody re-reads a book for 'lore'. People do that because they are captivated by phenomenal story and beauty of his language.
bro, his descriptions, details, poems and songs are incredible, he can get alot across with minimal words when he wants to, (even if much of the book is long descriptions of the environments). The dialogue is perfect, the words of gandalf and denethor are so amazing to simulate in your mind, for example, here is one of the most awesome parts of the two towers book Wormtongue looked from face to face. In his eyes was the hunted look of a beast seeking some gap in the ring of his enemies. He licked his lips with a long pale tongue. 'Such a resolve might be expected from a lord of the House of Eorl, old though he be,' he said. 'But those who truly love him would spare his failing years. Yet I see that I come too late. Others, whom the death of my lord would perhaps grieve less, have already persuaded him. If I cannot undo their work, hear me at least in this, lord! One who knows your mind and honours your commands should be left in Edoras. Appoint a faithful steward. Let your counsellor Grima keep all things till your return - and I pray that we may see it, though no wise man will deem it hopeful.' Eomer laughed. 'And if that plea does not excuse you from war, most noble Wormtongue,' he said, what office of less honour would you accept? To carry a sack of meal up into the mountains - if any man would trust you with it?' 'Nay, Eomer, you do not fully understand the mind of Master Wormtongue,' said Gandalf, turning his piercing glance upon him. 'He is bold and cunning. Even now he plays a game with peril and wins a throw. Hours of my precious time he has wasted already. 'Down snake!' he said suddenly in a terrible voice. 'Down on your belly! How long is it since Saruman bought you? What was the promised price? When all the men were dead, you were to pick your share of the treasure, and take the woman you desire? Too long have you watched her under your eyelids and haunted her steps.' This whole sequence in the book is just incredible, theres countless moments of verbal destruction and character interactions like these filling the books and they are just so juicy to read. Just try to imagine wormtongue for a second, grovelling to theoden not to take him to war with him, and for gandalf who has been pretty docile this whole time , finally just has enough and describe wormtongue's pathetic position to everyone present and then shout at the guy demanding him to go prone where he belongs, its just a beautiful destruction and order to submit. just wait till you get to the parts with saruman vs gandalf vs theoden , its just pure destruction and it cracks me up laughin when i read it
That scene where the ring slips on Frodo's finger, I've always thought that the ring itself more of less pushed itself into being put on Frodo's finger; because as Gandalf said, "It wants to be found."
"We're going over the Extended Edition... also known as the ONLY EDITION." LMAO 🤣 I find myself voicing rebuttals to various points of this as if you can hear me. LOL
1:14:00 - a small problem here. Actually Saruman is also "cheated" by Sauron... Sauron made himself look much stronger when Saruman was peeking through so he lost hope. Not to say that Sauron is in a weaker position, but the situation for the good guys is also not completely hopeless.
I see this trilogy as a one movie as well. Me and couple of my friends get together each year to marathon the whole extended cuts in one sitting, along some snacks and beer. Then spend next five days in the gym due to mad gains we seem to get during these marathons.
Yes, the LOTR books absolutely are "dry", to put it mildly. They are brilliant as a work of scholastic art, but they actively make it a chore to enjoy them. If I were to anthropomorphise the books, I would equate it to the famous Marilyn Monroe quote: "If you can't handle us at our worst, you don't deserve us at our best". It's not a book to be enjoyed by the hoi polloi; it's written for the intelligent, patient, and otherwise privileged, and gives them a truly excellent nut inside a very hard and spiky shell, which keeps any but the most specialized animals from feeding upon it.
The hair thing was Tolkien referring to earlier history of Galadriel three times her uncle Fëanor asked for a lock of her hair and three times she rejected her request, but thousands years later she gave the locks to Gimli.
I enjoyed the books although at the time I was coming off the 1st chronicles of Thomas Convenant and the land, it's characters was so breathtaking that The Hobbit and LOTR seemed a little quaint but timeless in their writing all the same. The movies however I felt transcended cinema as as storytelling device. PJ told that story on film in a TOTALITY which no other movie has done including the Star Wars trilogy which is why I would rank LOTR above Star Wars as my favourite film(s) of all time.
I've read the books a bunch of times I used to read them every year. it's been a while at this point though. anyway I didn't like them either the first time I read them. but I've appreciated and enjoyed them more and more with each read through. however I can totally understand why someone would dislike the books. I would never think less of you or be ANGRY that you don't care for the books but love the films.
Same for me, I've read a fair few of Tolkien's works multiple times and I can totally get why people might not enjoy reading them so much, they are very dry at times and ironically the fantastic world building Tolkien did does drag them down somewhat because it is generally so long winded and involved. That said, I find that makes me like the movies even more, it's easier to digest so more people enjoy the story and get absorbed into that world, yeah they aren't word for word accurate to the books but they do tell the story in the end and they tell it very well in an exciting and engaging way, honestly I think if it weren't for the films Lord of the Rings and Tolkien's work in general would probably just be an obscure memory that only die hard nerds are really into, as it is people love them, they love middle earth and we got releases of other works by Tolkien I would say directly as a result of the films being made, they kept the world alive and kept people wanting more and that's great to me as a big fan of both the books and the films
It's about fourteen years in the books. Tolkien had Frodo be about the same age as Bilbo was when he left on his adventure because that was Tolkien's age and that's what he wanted to write about. Plus, in the books Gandalf and Aragorn spend years tracking Gollum, plus all his research into the One Ring. Middle-Earth is gigantic, and all that back and forth took Gandalf years and years while Frodo just sat on his Hobbit bottom and forgot about the ring.
Absolutely one of the best ruminations yet, even though you're a heathen for not liking the books. Also glad to see that you are/were a fellow LOTRO player. I still jump into the game once in a while.
Well, for a long while, don't ask me how long, he served Shelob, the spider, almost as a Goddess. Also, Aaragorn and Gandalf had captured Gollum and taken him to the Elves of Mirkwood for sometime, of which he being Gollum, escaped. And shortly after that he was captured near the Marshes I believe is the correct time and place, and tortured by Mordor Inquisitors. After word of Gollum's escape, Aaragorn and Gandalf went off on yet another search, that I believe was 2 years long, until there trail ran to Mordor, and they could go no further. This is in part to why Gandalf was gone for much longer than what is shown in the Movie.
The Elves are leaving Middle-earth because they live so long and are attached to the past. They have been suffering for many centuries. Everything was much greater and more wonderful in the time of the Silmarillion. They finally can't bear to be in Middle-earth any longer, and need the peace and healing of Valinor. You get the sense of this in the story of Arwen, and how she will have to deal with Aragorn's eventual death. Aragorn is the love of her life, and she will have to live centuries without him. She finally does find a reason to stay, but for many elves Middle-earth is missing the "magic" it once had for them. They find that they must leave.
Ehh... As far as I know that is not the true, but perhaps I'm wrong, though considering I haven't seen that done in "professional" text I don't think I'm.
I don't ever post comments on UA-cam but thank you Arch. Been watching a long time but I wanted to let you know I thought this was great and is helping me finally get into lotr lore.
I completely agree that leaving Tom Bombadil out of the movie was a good decision. It's not that I dislike Old Tom, but: 1) Tom doesn't advance the plot in any significant way.2) It's an unnecessary diversion, and would slow down the movie too much.3) The tone of that side-plot detracts from the tone of the overall action.4) Tom's immunity to the Ring's corrupting effects may detract from the tension regarding its temptations for Boromir and Galadriel. (This is also a problem they had to avoid for Faramir.)
Agree, while Bombadil is in a third of the first book and mentioned in the second. It doesn't move a movie plot forward. However, the farmer Maggot cameo is also a failure that also could have been left out as is the elves scene in the shire. In the book these plot points are about rest and counsel and in the movies it's just fan boy service at a low level.
He sold them because many corporate types passed. And them some corporate types occasionally take a risk. This is not dissimilar to the corporate tools that passed on the Beatles, only to try and catch up the next year. Most corporatists are looking to meet the quarter requirements.
I was with you until Faramir. The entire point of having a Faramir and an Aragorn less susceptible to The Ring is that they are hope for mankind, and end up in leadership roles, over Boromir and Theoden and The Steward. I loathed the changes to Faramir.
I love your videos, and the fact that I don't have to keep my eyes on them. I can listen to them for hours while driving, doing stuff around the house, or playing a game. Thank you for all you do.
You're proving to have a talent for calling out seemingly cliché characters as being deeper than they seem. First it's Apocalypse in X-Men, and now Elrond; they both seem extremely narrow and one-note, but you've found a way to explain their behavior in ways that makes them seem deeper, with reasonable motivations for seemingly silly actions.
Absolutely fantastic video, I was hooked from start to finish. Will be back for your catalogue if this is anything to go by. Amazing job! So glad I found you!
I do believe Boromir tripped because before he trips, we already saw that Frodo had stepped on a branch while invisible, meaning Frodo had already run out of site.
As someone who has watched you for years and holds the lord of the rings as his favorite movies, this was something that i've been waiting for for years and you did not disappoint! Fellowship was my favorite of the movies, and i've seen it countless times, it used to be the background noise in my house. You have successfully shown me new points to think about and given me more perspective on the movie, so success! Only complaint was the review was only two hours, but hey thats the lotr nerd in me. keep up the great work, it is always appreciated!
The elves are going to Valinor. I know you've said that you wanted to separate movies from the books but imho you can't do that in that case imho. Valinor is a specific place in the Tolkien universe. It is the place where the Valar live and elves go when they decide to leave MIddle earth. They leave middle earth because their time is ending, their magic is ending, the things that hold them in middle earth are vanishing. Valinor is mentioned in the movies, disguised as more of an "after death" place which is not that far from the books.
One has to read The Rings less as a novel as we have come to expect it in the last several centuries, and rather an old Saxon poem or Norse saga or Greek Epic, which was Tolkien's aim when creating his later books. He was, after all, not a attempting to emulate modern and post-modern literature (indeed his academic field of study was Old English linguistics) but trying to recover a method of storytelling that had become lost in the industrial era. This is one of the things I don't like about many of Tolkien successors and emulators in the field of Fantasy, they're coming to the genre with modern sensibilities, rendering the entire exercise pointless, removing the soul of the Epic and merely keeping the accoutrements, attaching them to the bare-bones structure of the post-Flaubert novel.
WilliamGarland last several centuries? Lotr was published in the 1950s. I don't know in what century you're living in but that's not even a hundred years ago
You missed the point! Tolkien wasn't trying to emulate the style that was common at the time, he was instead trying to emulate the style of ancient literature
I understand the influence of the ring as the more power and ambition a person has the worse the ring effects them. Gandalf who is basically LOTR's version of an angel it one of the most powerfull beings on middle earth so even one touch or almost touch effects him as much as it would someone who has had the ring for a while hobbits on the other hand are the least threatening powerless creatures on this world and they have no real ambitions in life all they want is to eat drink and be merry so to speak they don't want to conquer anything or have immense riches or fight with anything so the ring almost has to convince them they want something they don't want which is harder to do than convincing someone to follow their temptations
1:37:33 Nice theory but I like my own more; Elrond simply doesn't stop Isildur because 1) not only are they allies but he has respect for Isildur being the grand hero that slain Sauron, and 2) he will not risk getting into conflict with Isildur where you trade one evil of getting rid of Sauron forever at the immediate time for another evil of Elves and Men being at eternal war with each other. Both these guys are Lords of their respective races whom just have inherited the positions after the fall of Gil Galad and Elendil.
I started reading the books in elementary around when the second film came out and have always been a die hard fan of both. Both inspired me in ways. I always agreed with said criticisms though about the book and honestly do prefer the movies. You're not alone.
im sitting with my computer set up outside on the veranda with my doggo and a mountain of blankets. gonna chill, listen to comfy ruminations and play age of empires 1
This reminds me of sitting down and listening to the massive Ruminations for the FF games. A good way to kill a few hours and hear some really interesting analysis. I fully agree in that I like the movies more. I just enjoy the movies more. I think the books are really good, I enjoyed enjoyed reading them. But I much prefer the movies. I love the tone, the energy, and yeah just the live action aspect. It's just an amazing trilogy of films. I fully agree. These movies are up there for me in terms of favorite movies of all time. They were amazing to watch in theaters. They are amazing to rewatch even now. I don't care that much for the Hobbit movies. Think they stretched that out a bit too much and it wasn't as strong. But, still had good moments. Always felt the Elves were just chickening out. A kind of "screw this place" thing. Just tired of dealing with men and dwarves and all of that. I mean look at how much Elrond and others look down on "the race of men." I don't get the feeling they are passing on the torch, but just done of dealing with these crazy events. Thank goodness you tackle something I've thought about a lot when watching these movies. Elrond talks about how men are weak and yet he had a perfectly good chance to get rid of the ring and did nothing! He just lets the guy walk out of there with it, knowing full well how bad that is. Now maybe he didn't want to start a war with the armies of men by killing their King, but he could have at least tried. Probably he was afraid to touch the ring himself and yet allowing someone else to be blamed for this situation eases his conscience. The Balrog was so amazing. I second the credit to everyone behind that. And the conflict between them was so good. Gandalf made that thing get cocky and make a mistake....and then so does he. I agree that the reactions for everyone just utterly and perfectly reflects their characters. So well done. Boromir was awesome. I'm not sure if it was how he died that made him such a favorite character for me, but I still feel bad he fell. He really struggled onward as best he could and frankly fought on longer than most people would ever be able to. Though at least it wasn't in vain. The impact his life and had on Aragorn was valuable.
Talking about the ludicrous levels of detail in this series, growing up with this series did a lot to influence my creative side, both positively and negatively. On the one hand, seeing the depth in the setting, themes, and characters inspired me to do my own writing. On the other hand, this series also set the bar so high in my mind that it ends up setting me up for failure more often than not. Even to this day if I don't think my efforts can measure up to this level of quality, I very quickly lose interest in writing it. This is obviously ridiculous but because it was one of the first works of literary fiction I'd been introduced to, that level of quality is what I associated with standard expectations. To some extent this is still true.
omgomgomg it's finally happening!!! I've waited years for Arch to do LOTR!!! Also, lol at "A NOISE!" I'll always hear that when I see that scene now lmao
Lore... thank you... I've watched this rumination before -- in fact, it's the first of your ruminations that I saw -- but I've just finished watching Fellowship again, so I had to watch the rumination again -- with the movie fresh in my mind... Your observations deepened my appreciation for a movie I already loved... I look forward to watching the other five movies and rewatching your ruminations on them...
Hey man, just release an extended edition with an extra hour of commentary to make the full treatise. Also people title these "Lord of the Ruminations"
Lord of the Ruminations: The Rumination of the RIng. Lord of the Ruminations: The Two Ruminations. Lord of the Ruminations: The Return of the Rumination. And of course the prequel ruminations: The Unexpected Rumination. The Rumination of Smaug. The Battle of the Five Ruminations.
I didnt realised how the movies have changed our - the readers - view of Bilbo's role and Frodo's role. In books it was Bilbo who was more hobbit-like person and Frodo was somewhat more elvish and un-hobbity-like. And in the movies Bilbo is alone, unique as willful adventurer and Frodo is more similar to other hobbits who like home more than adventures. Frodo in the movies is more like other hobbit characters - he is elvish only in his looks, not charachter.
Fantastic coverage of it, I've been subscribed for a long time but honestly haven't frequently watched many of your vids since your Mass Effect days. (jumping in sporadically instead). Love being reminded of what I've been missing out on by not watching. This was fantastic and while clearly not your intention, has inspired me to reread the books. Just excellent work man, you're love of the film comes across so well and really sums up what makes it a true classic.
YESSS!! I've been looking forward to this one for a long time! There one thing I’d love to hear more of your opinion on and that’s the implementation of the low level of magic in The Lord of the Rings setting. Would you agree that the magic of The Lord of the Rings is actually more effective than it should be because most of the time it’s used in much more subtle and subversive ways then how magic is typically shown in most other modern pieces of fiction? For example, the magic here is used most often to undermine and manipulate; or in some cases strengthen and enhance rather than to outright destroy. I like how this is shown in The Lord of the Rings movies in contrast with the magic in say the Harry Potter movies, where they sling spells around left and right and because of that they use magic in less creative ways. Whereas most practisers of magic like Saruman and Gandalf prefer to use their magic much more smartly to manipulate their opponents rather then to outright overpower them. Great rumination, I really enjoyed it. Now I want to go home and watch all the movies again! Looking forward to the next 5 weeks.
my favorite Evil Characters ever are the Ringwraiths, and the depiction of them in this film is just perfection. Also i thought the metal came from under Orthanc, those huge mines the orcs build propably had alot of ore
Tolkein on allegory: one reason he kept fighting against the idea that there was allegory in his works was that in analyses, he was constantly being compared to C.S. Lewis, whose work was a heavily allegorical of Christian philosophy. So Tolkein's claims that his works are not allegorical are sometimes in reference to religious allegory specifically.
Vis-a-vis Saruman: I really really wish they had kept the interpretation of Saruman from the book. In the book he was not evil at all, and was not allied with Sauron. Think about this way from Saruman's point of view. Gandolf the Grey spends most of his time doing fireworks displays for kids across Middle Earth and smoking weed he gets from his lazy pet hobbits. One day Gandolf walks up and his like, 'Hey Saruman, me and these dwarves are gonna go mess with that dragon'. Now that one did get Laketown burned down to the ground, but it basically worked out in the end. So it seemed. Because one day Gandolf walked up and was like, 'Hey Saruman. Remember that time those Dwarves and I messed with that Dragon. Yeah, funny thing. Turns out we unearthed the One Ring. The guy I get my weed, I left it with him. Don't worry his grandpa invented golf, so he can totally handle this. So my plan now is his nephew is gonna walk it into Mordor and throw it in Mt.Doom, so it's all cool I got handled. No seriously, his gardener is with him, so they can do it'. Saruman looked at Gandolf and was like, 'You're Fired. You're so fired, you're like I'm taking your staff and trapping you in the dungeon forever fired. Crap, now I got to get the ring of power from lazy weed growers nephew who's somewhere in Middle Earth. What? I am drawn to the ring for its corrupting call of power, of course not, I just am the only one who can save it soanything I do is justified and wise in that regard, now build me an ork army and ravage the country side until we find that ring!'
I always thought all the metal/weapons/armour came from that foundry that was in Isengard. Where the Uruk hai are born and then fitted with armour. You see them making the weapons and hammering them out on anvils and all that
I think if Tolkien where mostly against allegory in is work it was because when you associate the story to a theme, most of the time you forget all the other menings it can carry. I realy think he wish to implant some theme more universal than allegorical in is work, some conflict and ideas not limitted by a simple contexte or representation of our world but more like some universal humain theme where you can make many allegory. I think this is the reason why is work seams ageless. BTW anglish is not my first langage.
I've met people who love the movies and hate the books, and the other way around. I kind of like that there's not a consensus on this - people love middle earth and they do so for different reasons, they have their preferences, but we're all passionate about it. And I'm in the lucky position of adoring both. But this sparks a lot of interesting dialogue, which for example doesn't really exist in the Harry Potter fandom, where it's kind of universally agreed that the movies are worse. (Because they are.) So... I like it, and I enjoy the perspective of someone who didn't cry their eyes out after finishing the books like I did.
The meter and rhymes of Sam's poem were in my mind when I watched this in my late teens. I added a verse for Gandalf's battle and transformation: Fire and shadow took him deep. The darkness shall his darkness keep And there, where dwells no hint of light, He turned from grey to brilliant white.
I've never really thought of Saruman in that context before. And tbh I kind of wanted your theory on what exactly the watcher in the water is, since I can't quite figure out where it could have come from.
re: Your mentioning how its odd that the big event with Smaug didn't happen in the movie about Smaug. This never bothered me. I always took the Desolation of Smaug to be, not about Smaug himself, but about the world and times around him created by his presence and past actions.
Very late, but basically the surrounding area of the Lonely Mountain and the times since Smaug came is considered "the desolation of Smaug" in the book so you're not wrong in thinking that.
I love the honesty about liking the movies better. I prefer the books but that doesn't mean one of us is right and the other is wrong. In fact, I love the movies, and hearing your ruminations on them! Reeeeaaallllly looking forward to Nier Automata next week, that game blew me away......
I have two questions? 1) was the guard at brie killed when the door fell on him and the ring wraith horses rode across? 2) How did the ring wraiths find out what room the hobbits were supposed to be in. Did they look at the manifest, did they ask the innkeeper? It appears the innkeeper was just cowering behind the counter?
If the gate-keeper wasn't killed or seriously injured, he got lucky. In the novel the gate-keeper was an unwilling agent of the Ringwraiths, and opened the gate for them. As for the rooms.... Remember a couple of shady characters at The Prancing Pony? One of them was BIll Ferny, Bree's resdient bad boy, and a half-orc spy (whom we learn later was from Isengard). They were agents of the wraiths, and after Frodo's little show they provided intel. (The novel suggests Ferny & the spy ran off all the horses & ponies and attempted the killings. But the movie treatment demands the Nazgul do it themselves.)
My personal head-canon, along the lines of the books being copied from the Red Book of Westmarch, is that this version is based on the works of a mid 4th Age scribe seeking to curry favour with the current King of Gondor - which is why, among men, only Aragorn is able to resist the Ring, only Aragorn is brilliant and amazing, and most other people are kinda meh...
I just wanted to say that my I looooved the entire moria sequence. When they walked into the giant halls and the music played I'm literally drawn to tears because it's so incredible. And when they are outside crying once Gandalf falls, pippin is on the ground just sobbing unbearably because he feels guilty over Gandalfs death, since he knocked the skeleton in and started the chain of events
SkaterNerdPhilosopher can't believe Gandalf didn't use that against Pippin in ROTK
Me too,may we risk a little more light-)
Give them a moment for pity's sake!
Boromir is one of my favorites too. His story arc and death is one or the more moving elements in LOTR for me. It's also great how his story continues to have ripple effects throughout the following movies as well, and wasn't just the easy: He dead. Forget him. The end. The end of Fellowship gripped me emotionally even more after watching ROTK and re-watching, because of what his death caused in the long run.
The three people Frodo offers the ring to are probably the only three who have the will to refuse it. That says a lot about Frodo knowing who the better people are and who he can trust.
Gandalf, Galadriel and Aragorn.
Sam and Faramir could also resist the ring
You're wrong about the Moria Dwarves, they were trying to escape from the mines at the end, but were locked in, the record makes it clear "we cannot get out, a fire in the deep", the doors could be opened and closed from the inside, the password was only needed from the outside.
The book makes it clear that the colony was actually there for years, Balin was successful in routing the orcs at first and they repopulated the upper levels. However in doing so the Balrog was stirred and provided the orcs with leadership, not to mention the fact that the Dwarves could not stand up to it.
I hope that someday we will indeed get to see your "no really" full treatment on the whole trilogy. Make a 10-hour video, @Lorerunner; you know you want to!
While I'm a little tired that New Zealand has been 'middle earth' for almost two decades. It makes me proud to hear all the innovation my country has contributed to film and art in general with this trilogy. Brings a tear to my eye, in all honesty.
It's strongly indicated both in the book and in the film that the chamber of Marzibul, where Balin's tomb resides, is where the last dwarves of the Moria colony made their last stand. They had tried to escape but were either killed by goblins or by the watcher in the water (It killed Oin) and so were forced back until there was no where left to run. They knew they were going to die there but were simply determined to kill as many goblins as they could.
In fairness, Archengeia, if you properly ruminated on everything LOTR and The Hobbit on their own, the amount of R&D required for these videos would be astronomical.
The entire Moria sequence from entrance to exit is my favorite collection of scenes in movie history. Might be the best ever....
Agreed!!
I second that,in addition it is a great pity Peter Jackson didnt do a small scene if only on the deleted scenes a small scene of the Fog on the barrow downs in the barrow wights lair and the scouring of the shire a great pity!
lore you need to stop saying sorry for having a opinion
"Low-tier" magic and magical realism are, IMHO, far more enjoyable than "high-tier" fantasies. I hate the "cartoon magic" in most fantasy. I like magic that the characters can doubt the existence of. The kind of thing you could (perhaps with some effort) imagine existing in our world.
Yeah. A Japanese friend of mine asked me what was the big deal about Gandalf and the magic of Middle Earth; why was it so weak? "Light comes out of his staff like it's just a big flashlight! In Japanese fantasy, the wizards are much more powerful." I didn't know your phrase "lower tier." I tried to explain that it was more realistic and therefore more believable. With weaker magic the stakes are higher. He didn't buy it. He had just explained to me a key difference between Asian fantasy (including China, i.e. the Monkey King) and Tolkien's work. Eastern and Western fantasy function at different levels, with Eastern fantasy being more abstract.
It didn't occur to me until watching your rumination on hobbit 3 but I think the reason gandalf doesn't want to deal with the fact that the ring has been found at the beginning of this movie is because he is still guilty of the consequences of him pushing thorin into the quest to reclaim erebor.
Re: Elrond, it's strongly implied that the Ring's capacity to corrupt is directly proportional to the power of the person it's corrupting. Smeagol and Bilbo and Frodo take a very long time to corrupt because they are so weak; Boromir is corrupted more quickly (over the course of several weeks/months) because he is the most powerful* member of the fellowship. If someone like Gandalf or Elrond or Galadriel were to touch the Ring? They'd be corrupted *instantly*.
At Mount Doom, Elrond's refusal to force Isildur *was* an act of strength, in service of "good." The urge to violence that you think he was weak to avoid would have been to give in to the corrupting influence of the Ring.
The weakness of Isildur (and later Boromir) is that he allowed himself to be corrupted; the strength of Elrond (and later Gandalf and Galadriel) is that he did not.
*Aragorn is never tempted by the Ring, which is... odd. In the books its because he's very much a Mary Sue cut straight out of a Medieval Romance, but in the movies he is a proper character with a proper character arc. He really should have been tempted more clearly by the Ring, though (obviously) not to the same degree or extent as Boromir.
It's only odd when you try to explain it while defending your theory. If you abandon the theory, the problem goes away.
Couldn't the allure of the ring be coupled to a person's personal drive? If you are ambitious and have a lot of power, the power of the ring becomes more harder to resist. Knowing this, it can be considered a personal victory to resist the allure (Galadriel) or a reason to avoid the confrontation (Gandalf the Grey).
Hobbits usually aren't powerhungry but do like nice and pretty things. So it's not their weakness, but it's their lack of megalomany why they get consumed by the ring less fast.
I do think Aragorn was tempted, that's one of the reasons he let Frodo go: to get distance between them. Also, his bromance with Gandalf learned him he should avoid the confrontation.
Samwise's only motives are a nice house with a nice garden and a blushing Rosie (and observing what the ring did to Boromir, Frodo, Smeagol and others might even have lowered his interest).
(Has anyone already noticed the similarities between Samwell Tarly and Samwise Gamsee :-)
What Eelco de Boer said. The reason hobbits take so long to be corrupted by the Ring's power is that the Ring has very little to tempt them with. Everyone in Middle Earth usually wants power for one reason or another. Boromir wanted the power to defend his people, Faramir wanted to impress his father, Galadriel would have wanted it to defeat Sauron and Gandalf likewise admits that he refuses to take it because he would "use it from the desire to do good". Hobbits, on the other hand, are simple folk. They like to eat, drink, garden and smoke their pipes. The promise of "power" holds no sway over them because they already have everything that they want. Like Lore said in the video, Lobelia Sackville-Baggins is probably the closest thing to "power-hungry" the Shire has to offer, and even that just extends to her pestering Bilbo over who gets to inherit Baggend.
Arsene Lupin Aragorn is tempted in the movies, briefly, when Frodo offers it to him. We don't get to see what he thought about in that moment,, but later we are told that his reluctance was due to him feeling responsible for Isildur's failure to destroy The Ring, as his heir. He thinks he has the same weakness, and that humbles him to the point where he never considers trying to use the thing.
My intuition is that a large part of the Ring's corrupting influence operates through wielding its power - the more you use, and the more effectively you wield it, the more it seduces you to Sauron's will - or to become like Sauron. The Hobbits are unable to wield the Ring's power effectively, so are not much exposed to it.
I think a lot of people share your opinion on LOTR. Tolkien is famous primarily for his *world building.* Whether he's also a good writer depends on who you ask, but it's his setting that stands out.
If he wasn't a fantastic author, nobody would care about his world. It's his writing that makes the reader interested in his world, in the first place.
It's no coincidence that LOTR is the most famous re-read books in the world. Nobody re-reads a book for 'lore'. People do that because they are captivated by phenomenal story and beauty of his language.
So..the lore then. 😂👏
bro, his descriptions, details, poems and songs are incredible, he can get alot across with minimal words when he wants to, (even if much of the book is long descriptions of the environments). The dialogue is perfect, the words of gandalf and denethor are so amazing to simulate in your mind, for example, here is one of the most awesome parts of the two towers book
Wormtongue looked from face to face. In his eyes was the hunted look of a beast
seeking some gap in the ring of his enemies. He licked his lips with a long pale
tongue.
'Such a resolve might be expected from a lord of the House of Eorl, old
though he be,' he said. 'But those who truly love him would spare his failing years.
Yet I see that I come too late. Others, whom the death of my lord would perhaps
grieve less, have already persuaded him. If I cannot undo their work, hear me at
least in this, lord! One who knows your mind and honours your commands should be
left in Edoras. Appoint a faithful steward. Let your counsellor Grima keep all things till
your return - and I pray that we may see it, though no wise man will deem it hopeful.'
Eomer laughed. 'And if that plea does not excuse you from war, most noble
Wormtongue,' he said, what office of less honour would you accept? To carry a sack
of meal up into the mountains - if any man would trust you with it?'
'Nay, Eomer, you do not fully understand the mind of Master Wormtongue,' said
Gandalf, turning his piercing glance upon him. 'He is bold and cunning. Even now he
plays a game with peril and wins a throw. Hours of my precious time he has wasted
already. 'Down snake!' he said suddenly in a terrible voice. 'Down on your belly! How
long is it since Saruman bought you? What was the promised price? When all the
men were dead, you were to pick your share of the treasure, and take the woman
you desire? Too long have you watched her under your eyelids and haunted her
steps.'
This whole sequence in the book is just incredible, theres countless moments of verbal destruction and character interactions like these filling the books and they are just so juicy to read. Just try to imagine wormtongue for a second, grovelling to theoden not to take him to war with him, and for gandalf who has been pretty docile this whole time , finally just has enough and describe wormtongue's pathetic position to everyone present and then shout at the guy demanding him to go prone where he belongs, its just a beautiful destruction and order to submit.
just wait till you get to the parts with saruman vs gandalf vs theoden , its just pure destruction and it cracks me up laughin when i read it
That scene where the ring slips on Frodo's finger, I've always thought that the ring itself more of less pushed itself into being put on Frodo's finger; because as Gandalf said, "It wants to be found."
Fellowship is the most comfy movie ever made. Can't wait to see your other reviews
Long Ruminations like this on popular works are when you are at your best, keep up the awesome work!
"We're going over the Extended Edition... also known as the ONLY EDITION."
LMAO 🤣
I find myself voicing rebuttals to various points of this as if you can hear me. LOL
I have to say, this is probably your best rumination. I watched your videos along with the extended editions. It was a great experience.
1:14:00 - a small problem here. Actually Saruman is also "cheated" by Sauron... Sauron made himself look much stronger when Saruman was peeking through so he lost hope.
Not to say that Sauron is in a weaker position, but the situation for the good guys is also not completely hopeless.
I see this trilogy as a one movie as well. Me and couple of my friends get together each year to marathon the whole extended cuts in one sitting, along some snacks and beer. Then spend next five days in the gym due to mad gains we seem to get during these marathons.
Ivrenad you need to add some Old Toby to that equation my friend, get a big ol' pipe like Bilbo haha
It's all the glycogen from 12 hours of snacks and beers, doesn't give you mad gains, but DOES give you a mad pump!
Yes, the LOTR books absolutely are "dry", to put it mildly. They are brilliant as a work of scholastic art, but they actively make it a chore to enjoy them. If I were to anthropomorphise the books, I would equate it to the famous Marilyn Monroe quote: "If you can't handle us at our worst, you don't deserve us at our best". It's not a book to be enjoyed by the hoi polloi; it's written for the intelligent, patient, and otherwise privileged, and gives them a truly excellent nut inside a very hard and spiky shell, which keeps any but the most specialized animals from feeding upon it.
The hair thing was Tolkien referring to earlier history of Galadriel three times her uncle Fëanor asked for a lock of her hair and three times she rejected her request, but thousands years later she gave the locks to Gimli.
I enjoyed the books although at the time I was coming off the 1st chronicles of Thomas Convenant and the land, it's characters was so breathtaking that The Hobbit and LOTR seemed a little quaint but timeless in their writing all the same.
The movies however I felt transcended cinema as as storytelling device. PJ told that story on film in a TOTALITY which no other movie has done including the Star Wars trilogy which is why I would rank LOTR above Star Wars as my favourite film(s) of all time.
I've read the books a bunch of times I used to read them every year. it's been a while at this point though.
anyway I didn't like them either the first time I read them. but I've appreciated and enjoyed them more and more with each read through. however I can totally understand why someone would dislike the books. I would never think less of you or be ANGRY that you don't care for the books but love the films.
Same for me, I've read a fair few of Tolkien's works multiple times and I can totally get why people might not enjoy reading them so much, they are very dry at times and ironically the fantastic world building Tolkien did does drag them down somewhat because it is generally so long winded and involved.
That said, I find that makes me like the movies even more, it's easier to digest so more people enjoy the story and get absorbed into that world, yeah they aren't word for word accurate to the books but they do tell the story in the end and they tell it very well in an exciting and engaging way, honestly I think if it weren't for the films Lord of the Rings and Tolkien's work in general would probably just be an obscure memory that only die hard nerds are really into, as it is people love them, they love middle earth and we got releases of other works by Tolkien I would say directly as a result of the films being made, they kept the world alive and kept people wanting more and that's great to me as a big fan of both the books and the films
Such a wholesome, honest, anti-ironic collection of analyses of FotR. Thank you!
It's about fourteen years in the books. Tolkien had Frodo be about the same age as Bilbo was when he left on his adventure because that was Tolkien's age and that's what he wanted to write about. Plus, in the books Gandalf and Aragorn spend years tracking Gollum, plus all his research into the One Ring. Middle-Earth is gigantic, and all that back and forth took Gandalf years and years while Frodo just sat on his Hobbit bottom and forgot about the ring.
Absolutely one of the best ruminations yet, even though you're a heathen for not liking the books. Also glad to see that you are/were a fellow LOTRO player. I still jump into the game once in a while.
"When you're making Art, THATS when those details matter"
Awesome analysis! I must say, I never noticed what you brought up about Saruman's movie progression before.
Gandalf left The Shire for 17 years, not 14 months/weeks/days BTW.
Yes and no. There are 17 years between the birthday party and Frodo's departure, but Gandalf came back to visit a few times in between.
Well, for a long while, don't ask me how long, he served Shelob, the spider, almost as a Goddess. Also, Aaragorn and Gandalf had captured Gollum and taken him to the Elves of Mirkwood for sometime, of which he being Gollum, escaped. And shortly after that he was captured near the Marshes I believe is the correct time and place, and tortured by Mordor Inquisitors. After word of Gollum's escape, Aaragorn and Gandalf went off on yet another search, that I believe was 2 years long, until there trail ran to Mordor, and they could go no further. This is in part to why Gandalf was gone for much longer than what is shown in the Movie.
Yay! Someone else who preferred the movies over the books. I have a lot of complaints about them but you describe it well with 'dry.'
The Elves are leaving Middle-earth because they live so long and are attached to the past. They have been suffering for many centuries. Everything was much greater and more wonderful in the time of the Silmarillion. They finally can't bear to be in Middle-earth any longer, and need the peace and healing of Valinor.
You get the sense of this in the story of Arwen, and how she will have to deal with Aragorn's eventual death. Aragorn is the love of her life, and she will have to live centuries without him. She finally does find a reason to stay, but for many elves Middle-earth is missing the "magic" it once had for them. They find that they must leave.
What's up with the double spaces after sentences?
Lillu700 I see nothing wrong with double spaces after sentences. It's an old habit from using mechanical typewriters.
Well, there's nothing really "wrong" with it aside from that you're not technically supposed to do that, but fair enough.
Ehh... As far as I know that is not the true, but perhaps I'm wrong, though considering I haven't seen that done in "professional" text I don't think I'm.
A little extreme, huh? To me it just looks weird, though that's likely because I'm not used to seeing it.
Great analysis! Thank you for your insights. You've deepened my appreciation for this film.
I don't ever post comments on UA-cam but thank you Arch. Been watching a long time but I wanted to let you know I thought this was great and is helping me finally get into lotr lore.
I completely agree that leaving Tom Bombadil out of the movie was a good decision. It's not that I dislike Old Tom, but:
1) Tom doesn't advance the plot in any significant way.2) It's an unnecessary diversion, and would slow down the movie too much.3) The tone of that side-plot detracts from the tone of the overall action.4) Tom's immunity to the Ring's corrupting effects may detract from the tension regarding its temptations for Boromir and Galadriel. (This is also a problem they had to avoid for Faramir.)
Agree, while Bombadil is in a third of the first book and mentioned in the second. It doesn't move a movie plot forward. However, the farmer Maggot cameo is also a failure that also could have been left out as is the elves scene in the shire. In the book these plot points are about rest and counsel and in the movies it's just fan boy service at a low level.
He sold them because many corporate types passed. And them some corporate types occasionally take a risk. This is not dissimilar to the corporate tools that passed on the Beatles, only to try and catch up the next year. Most corporatists are looking to meet the quarter requirements.
I was with you until Faramir. The entire point of having a Faramir and an Aragorn less susceptible to The Ring is that they are hope for mankind, and end up in leadership roles, over Boromir and Theoden and The Steward. I loathed the changes to Faramir.
I love your videos, and the fact that I don't have to keep my eyes on them. I can listen to them for hours while driving, doing stuff around the house, or playing a game.
Thank you for all you do.
You're proving to have a talent for calling out seemingly cliché characters as being deeper than they seem. First it's Apocalypse in X-Men, and now Elrond; they both seem extremely narrow and one-note, but you've found a way to explain their behavior in ways that makes them seem deeper, with reasonable motivations for seemingly silly actions.
Absolutely fantastic video, I was hooked from start to finish. Will be back for your catalogue if this is anything to go by. Amazing job! So glad I found you!
I do believe Boromir tripped because before he trips, we already saw that Frodo had stepped on a branch while invisible, meaning Frodo had already run out of site.
As someone who has watched you for years and holds the lord of the rings as his favorite movies, this was something that i've been waiting for for years and you did not disappoint! Fellowship was my favorite of the movies, and i've seen it countless times, it used to be the background noise in my house. You have successfully shown me new points to think about and given me more perspective on the movie, so success! Only complaint was the review was only two hours, but hey thats the lotr nerd in me. keep up the great work, it is always appreciated!
The elves are going to Valinor. I know you've said that you wanted to separate movies from the books but imho you can't do that in that case imho. Valinor is a specific place in the Tolkien universe. It is the place where the Valar live and elves go when they decide to leave MIddle earth. They leave middle earth because their time is ending, their magic is ending, the things that hold them in middle earth are vanishing.
Valinor is mentioned in the movies, disguised as more of an "after death" place which is not that far from the books.
I was gonna write a comment but hold on gotta text my mom
One has to read The Rings less as a novel as we have come to expect it in the last several centuries, and rather an old Saxon poem or Norse saga or Greek Epic, which was Tolkien's aim when creating his later books. He was, after all, not a attempting to emulate modern and post-modern literature (indeed his academic field of study was Old English linguistics) but trying to recover a method of storytelling that had become lost in the industrial era. This is one of the things I don't like about many of Tolkien successors and emulators in the field of Fantasy, they're coming to the genre with modern sensibilities, rendering the entire exercise pointless, removing the soul of the Epic and merely keeping the accoutrements, attaching them to the bare-bones structure of the post-Flaubert novel.
WilliamGarland last several centuries? Lotr was published in the 1950s. I don't know in what century you're living in but that's not even a hundred years ago
The hobbit was published in 1937 man. Tolkein had the simarillion finished by 34-35.
You missed the point! Tolkien wasn't trying to emulate the style that was common at the time, he was instead trying to emulate the style of ancient literature
Brilliant reviews lore, love your attention to detail.
I understand the influence of the ring as the more power and ambition a person has the worse the ring effects them. Gandalf who is basically LOTR's version of an angel it one of the most powerfull beings on middle earth so even one touch or almost touch effects him as much as it would someone who has had the ring for a while hobbits on the other hand are the least threatening powerless creatures on this world and they have no real ambitions in life all they want is to eat drink and be merry so to speak they don't want to conquer anything or have immense riches or fight with anything so the ring almost has to convince them they want something they don't want which is harder to do than convincing someone to follow their temptations
Finally someone pronounces Sauron and Saruman correctly.
1:37:33 Nice theory but I like my own more; Elrond simply doesn't stop Isildur because 1) not only are they allies but he has respect for Isildur being the grand hero that slain Sauron, and 2) he will not risk getting into conflict with Isildur where you trade one evil of getting rid of Sauron forever at the immediate time for another evil of Elves and Men being at eternal war with each other. Both these guys are Lords of their respective races whom just have inherited the positions after the fall of Gil Galad and Elendil.
I started reading the books in elementary around when the second film came out and have always been a die hard fan of both. Both inspired me in ways. I always agreed with said criticisms though about the book and honestly do prefer the movies. You're not alone.
im sitting with my computer set up outside on the veranda with my doggo and a mountain of blankets.
gonna chill, listen to comfy ruminations and play age of empires 1
This reminds me of sitting down and listening to the massive Ruminations for the FF games.
A good way to kill a few hours and hear some really interesting analysis.
I fully agree in that I like the movies more. I just enjoy the movies more. I think the books are really good, I enjoyed enjoyed reading them. But I much prefer the movies. I love the tone, the energy, and yeah just the live action aspect. It's just an amazing trilogy of films. I fully agree. These movies are up there for me in terms of favorite movies of all time. They were amazing to watch in theaters. They are amazing to rewatch even now.
I don't care that much for the Hobbit movies. Think they stretched that out a bit too much and it wasn't as strong. But, still had good moments.
Always felt the Elves were just chickening out. A kind of "screw this place" thing. Just tired of dealing with men and dwarves and all of that. I mean look at how much Elrond and others look down on "the race of men." I don't get the feeling they are passing on the torch, but just done of dealing with these crazy events.
Thank goodness you tackle something I've thought about a lot when watching these movies. Elrond talks about how men are weak and yet he had a perfectly good chance to get rid of the ring and did nothing! He just lets the guy walk out of there with it, knowing full well how bad that is. Now maybe he didn't want to start a war with the armies of men by killing their King, but he could have at least tried. Probably he was afraid to touch the ring himself and yet allowing someone else to be blamed for this situation eases his conscience.
The Balrog was so amazing. I second the credit to everyone behind that. And the conflict between them was so good. Gandalf made that thing get cocky and make a mistake....and then so does he. I agree that the reactions for everyone just utterly and perfectly reflects their characters. So well done.
Boromir was awesome. I'm not sure if it was how he died that made him such a favorite character for me, but I still feel bad he fell. He really struggled onward as best he could and frankly fought on longer than most people would ever be able to. Though at least it wasn't in vain. The impact his life and had on Aragorn was valuable.
Lorerunner speaks to my soul. I always thought the LOTR books read like a bloody dictionary. I never ended up getting through even the first one.
Talking about the ludicrous levels of detail in this series, growing up with this series did a lot to influence my creative side, both positively and negatively. On the one hand, seeing the depth in the setting, themes, and characters inspired me to do my own writing. On the other hand, this series also set the bar so high in my mind that it ends up setting me up for failure more often than not. Even to this day if I don't think my efforts can measure up to this level of quality, I very quickly lose interest in writing it. This is obviously ridiculous but because it was one of the first works of literary fiction I'd been introduced to, that level of quality is what I associated with standard expectations. To some extent this is still true.
omgomgomg it's finally happening!!! I've waited years for Arch to do LOTR!!!
Also, lol at "A NOISE!" I'll always hear that when I see that scene now lmao
Lore... thank you... I've watched this rumination before -- in fact, it's the first of your ruminations that I saw -- but I've just finished watching Fellowship again, so I had to watch the rumination again -- with the movie fresh in my mind... Your observations deepened my appreciation for a movie I already loved... I look forward to watching the other five movies and rewatching your ruminations on them...
1:01:59 I am now picturing Bilbo challenging Gandalf to a fist fight. It's glorious.
Hey man, just release an extended edition with an extra hour of commentary to make the full treatise. Also people title these "Lord of the Ruminations"
Lord of the Ruminations: The Rumination of the RIng. Lord of the Ruminations: The Two Ruminations. Lord of the Ruminations: The Return of the Rumination. And of course the prequel ruminations: The Unexpected Rumination. The Rumination of Smaug. The Battle of the Five Ruminations.
I didnt realised how the movies have changed our - the readers - view of Bilbo's role and Frodo's role. In books it was Bilbo who was more hobbit-like person and Frodo was somewhat more elvish and un-hobbity-like. And in the movies Bilbo is alone, unique as willful adventurer and Frodo is more similar to other hobbits who like home more than adventures. Frodo in the movies is more like other hobbit characters - he is elvish only in his looks, not charachter.
Fantastic coverage of it, I've been subscribed for a long time but honestly haven't frequently watched many of your vids since your Mass Effect days. (jumping in sporadically instead). Love being reminded of what I've been missing out on by not watching.
This was fantastic and while clearly not your intention, has inspired me to reread the books. Just excellent work man, you're love of the film comes across so well and really sums up what makes it a true classic.
I watch your show and donate because you're honest and you don't pander. The day you start pandering is the day I stop watching. This was excellent!
Gallant0 are you still watching?
Great stuff sir! Your channel was recommended to me by a friend recently and I cannot get enough. Keep up the good work!
YESSS!! I've been looking forward to this one for a long time!
There one thing I’d love to hear more of your opinion on and that’s the implementation of the low level of magic in The Lord of the Rings setting.
Would you agree that the magic of The Lord of the Rings is actually more effective than it should be because most of the time it’s used in much more subtle and subversive ways then how magic is typically shown in most other modern pieces of fiction?
For example, the magic here is used most often to undermine and manipulate; or in some cases strengthen and enhance rather than to outright destroy.
I like how this is shown in The Lord of the Rings movies in contrast with the magic in say the Harry Potter movies, where they sling spells around left and right and because of that they use magic in less creative ways.
Whereas most practisers of magic like Saruman and Gandalf prefer to use their magic much more smartly to manipulate their opponents rather then to outright overpower them.
Great rumination, I really enjoyed it. Now I want to go home and watch all the movies again! Looking forward to the next 5 weeks.
my favorite Evil Characters ever are the Ringwraiths, and the depiction of them in this film is just perfection.
Also i thought the metal came from under Orthanc, those huge mines the orcs build propably had alot of ore
Very well done. Pleasantly surprised on how much i learned while watching this. Can't wait for the next video.
Happy 20 year anniversary for the fellowship- watching the trilogy again in the theaters for the event 🖖
Just when I thought I couldn't extend my indulgence in all things Tolkien anymore, along comes Lorerunner. Thank you, Sir!
My body has never been more ready
this would be awesome as a podcast
Awesome review Arch!!!!!! Looking forward to the next one
For the record, I grew up with these books and I love them to death, but I really look forward to this rumination!
And I just got done rewatching them for the first time in years.
Nice.
Boromir is fricking amazing
Just finished watching and i freaking loved it Lore, thank you so much for doing it and i cannot wait for the others :)
I wonder
was the Balrog interested in the ring
Is this the Anthony Fantano of movies?
What? Yes and Video Games
Tolkein on allegory: one reason he kept fighting against the idea that there was allegory in his works was that in analyses, he was constantly being compared to C.S. Lewis, whose work was a heavily allegorical of Christian philosophy. So Tolkein's claims that his works are not allegorical are sometimes in reference to religious allegory specifically.
Vis-a-vis Saruman: I really really wish they had kept the interpretation of Saruman from the book. In the book he was not evil at all, and was not allied with Sauron. Think about this way from Saruman's point of view. Gandolf the Grey spends most of his time doing fireworks displays for kids across Middle Earth and smoking weed he gets from his lazy pet hobbits. One day Gandolf walks up and his like, 'Hey Saruman, me and these dwarves are gonna go mess with that dragon'. Now that one did get Laketown burned down to the ground, but it basically worked out in the end. So it seemed. Because one day Gandolf walked up and was like, 'Hey Saruman. Remember that time those Dwarves and I messed with that Dragon. Yeah, funny thing. Turns out we unearthed the One Ring. The guy I get my weed, I left it with him. Don't worry his grandpa invented golf, so he can totally handle this. So my plan now is his nephew is gonna walk it into Mordor and throw it in Mt.Doom, so it's all cool I got handled. No seriously, his gardener is with him, so they can do it'. Saruman looked at Gandolf and was like, 'You're Fired. You're so fired, you're like I'm taking your staff and trapping you in the dungeon forever fired. Crap, now I got to get the ring of power from lazy weed growers nephew who's somewhere in Middle Earth. What? I am drawn to the ring for its corrupting call of power, of course not, I just am the only one who can save it soanything I do is justified and wise in that regard, now build me an ork army and ravage the country side until we find that ring!'
I always thought all the metal/weapons/armour came from that foundry that was in Isengard. Where the Uruk hai are born and then fitted with armour. You see them making the weapons and hammering them out on anvils and all that
I think if Tolkien where mostly against allegory in is work it was because when you associate the story to a theme, most of the time you forget all the other menings it can carry. I realy think he wish to implant some theme more universal than allegorical in is work, some conflict and ideas not limitted by a simple contexte or representation of our world but more like some universal humain theme where you can make many allegory. I think this is the reason why is work seams ageless. BTW anglish is not my first langage.
Tolkien liked his settings more then his stories as well.
The metal to armor the Uruk-hai? Did you forget about all the mines dug out underneath the ring of Isengard?
I've met people who love the movies and hate the books, and the other way around. I kind of like that there's not a consensus on this - people love middle earth and they do so for different reasons, they have their preferences, but we're all passionate about it. And I'm in the lucky position of adoring both. But this sparks a lot of interesting dialogue, which for example doesn't really exist in the Harry Potter fandom, where it's kind of universally agreed that the movies are worse. (Because they are.) So... I like it, and I enjoy the perspective of someone who didn't cry their eyes out after finishing the books like I did.
Holy crap! I've been waiting for this for so long...
It isn't 14 days, weeks or months between gandalf leaving and returning to the shire. it's 17 YEARS.
@ashkaari I dont think they ever give a timeframe for the movie. I always figured it was about a year in the movie.
The meter and rhymes of Sam's poem were in my mind when I watched this in my late teens. I added a verse for Gandalf's battle and transformation:
Fire and shadow took him deep.
The darkness shall his darkness keep
And there, where dwells no hint of light,
He turned from grey to brilliant white.
Finished battle of the five armies rumination, thus I begin the journey once more
I love the fact that pity is what saves middle earth, bilbo and Frodo. Because they pitted gollum, he saves everyone without even meaning too.
I'm with you on the books--I TRIED several times but got bogged down every time. I just could not get past Gandalf in a library for 40 years.
retire in the Shire, vacation in Rivendell?
Couldn't stop myself from liking right away, been waiting for years. Finally!
YES!!! BEEN WAITING YEARS FOR THIS!!! HYPED
I'm so happy to get this content. Though I imagine the last hobbit movie rumination will be about 15 minutes long of Arch just saying "MALAK SMASH"
I've never really thought of Saruman in that context before. And tbh I kind of wanted your theory on what exactly the watcher in the water is, since I can't quite figure out where it could have come from.
Superb analysis, sir.
re: Your mentioning how its odd that the big event with Smaug didn't happen in the movie about Smaug. This never bothered me. I always took the Desolation of Smaug to be, not about Smaug himself, but about the world and times around him created by his presence and past actions.
Very late, but basically the surrounding area of the Lonely Mountain and the times since Smaug came is considered "the desolation of Smaug" in the book so you're not wrong in thinking that.
I love the honesty about liking the movies better. I prefer the books but that doesn't mean one of us is right and the other is wrong. In fact, I love the movies, and hearing your ruminations on them! Reeeeaaallllly looking forward to Nier Automata next week, that game blew me away......
I have two questions?
1) was the guard at brie killed when the door fell on him and the ring wraith horses rode across?
2) How did the ring wraiths find out what room the hobbits were supposed to be in. Did they look at the manifest, did they ask the innkeeper? It appears the innkeeper was just cowering behind the counter?
If the gate-keeper wasn't killed or seriously injured, he got lucky. In the novel the gate-keeper was an unwilling agent of the Ringwraiths, and opened the gate for them.
As for the rooms.... Remember a couple of shady characters at The Prancing Pony? One of them was BIll Ferny, Bree's resdient bad boy, and a half-orc spy (whom we learn later was from Isengard). They were agents of the wraiths, and after Frodo's little show they provided intel. (The novel suggests Ferny & the spy ran off all the horses & ponies and attempted the killings. But the movie treatment demands the Nazgul do it themselves.)
Yay!!! Lotr! Thanks for doing this Arch!
Elrond: (has a week to go til retirement)
Frodo and Company: (show up in Rivendell)
Elrond: ....I'm too old for this shit.
My personal head-canon, along the lines of the books being copied from the Red Book of Westmarch, is that this version is based on the works of a mid 4th Age scribe seeking to curry favour with the current King of Gondor - which is why, among men, only Aragorn is able to resist the Ring, only Aragorn is brilliant and amazing, and most other people are kinda meh...