4. When Frodo is crawling up Mount Doom, and you have this hand held camera along with a angelic music. Whats so beautiful about this scene is that after everything Frodo went through, torture, dragged down to a near watery death with wraiths, stung by a spider and a morgul blade, he keeps going. He somehow finds the will to crawl further up Mount Doom, and its one of the most beautiful, if not even the most beautiful moment in the trilogy.
Despite seeing RotK a dozen times, it took you to point it out that both Denethor and Theoden both lost their sons, but Theoden rose to fulfill his duties whereas Denethor used his son's death to get out of his. Great analysis !
Regarding Aragorn setting the Dead King free: I think it also demonstrates how Aragorn is meant to be the king, honoring his promise shows true kingliness and warmth towards people. It's what a true king should strife for.
Love that moment: "You are soldiers of gondor. No matter what comes through that gate you will stand your ground!" The look on Gandalf's face says it all
SW:toR: "You wish now that our places had been exchanged. That I had died and KotOR 3 had lived." The fans: "Yes. I wish that." (I stole this from a meme.)
Kudos to you for going through the Shelob scene, when someone fights their fears, it's always appreciated by someone (y) Funny, just like LOTR demonstrates, bravery and facing fears great and small is something to be championed :)
That's how I saw it. Somebody you want to capture for information gets stabbed - well one stabbing isn't a guaranteed death, especially with their advanced healing arts. So stop the guy doing the stabbing before one stabbing becomes two. They didn't know Saruman would fall.
Hey Arch, I just subscribed last weekend and I dont usually comment however I felt it was necessary to leave one letting you know how much I appreciate your ruminations especially the ones from the FF Series. Not many youtubers in my opinion have the skill of knowing how to identify the defining themes in a work, as well as having the insight to unpack and expand on those themes in a very precise, articulate manner.. Keep up the great work!
M S Ram he was talking about his eyes. He is saying he has experienced a lot and he sees a lot, and the white tower is the huge courtyard pillar thing at the top of Minas Tirith, and he is the leader. It belong to him. HIS EYES
Dude just watch the appendices on the extended edition. Jackson himself states that even though it isn't shown on screen they definitely were trying to suggest that Denethor had a Palintir. The Palintir itself is even shown in a deleted scene where Aragorn shows Sauron the reforged Narsil (now Anduril).
Great ruminations, well done. A few things to talk about: First the crossroads scene and the crown of sunlit flowers. This is one of those scenes where the fanboys would have lynched Peter Jackson if Sam didn't say those words. Never underestimate the wrath of the Tolkien fans. Same with "the multiple endings". These scenes were all in the book. Not sure why they are even considered multiple endings. Closure would be a better description. And last but not least, Sam's final line "i'm back". Again, this is how the book ends. If this line had been omitted the fanboys would have burned New Zealand to the ground. Never underestimate the wrath of the Tolkien fans.
The trouble with including the endings they did is that they left out the Scouring - and that serves an important role in the book - not only as a depiction of the experience of returning soldiers after any great war (in particular, the Great War), but also to break up the pacing and provide something of some substance in the midst of the epilogues and endings. Also, there's a thread that's more present in the books of the Hobbits' choice to accompany the Ring to Mordor coming at the cost of not alerting the Shire, rather than being able to go off an adventure and return to find home unchanged - which ties into a wider theme - that the Ring's discovery signals change and no matter who wins the war, nothing passed through the end of an Age unchanged.
one ending is missed, sort of.... Gandalf's mission is to defeat Sauron, in a way, (through the Hobbits) he succeeds, but his coming has come to an end... so he goes to Tom Bombardil, because, only he would know what to say to him, Gandalf also needed healing... but that healing needed to be from someone of his like, the undying lands would not yet in themselves give him healing.
With regards to Pippin looking at Gandalf, i never looked at it like that. In my opinion Pippin was startled by looking at Gandalf and remembering his extreme desire to hold the Palantir again and thats what hit him. Also due to his sly look back at Gandalf at Isengard after he grabbed the Palantir and giving it to Gandalf.
Maybe it's just me, but when I watched the scene when Smeagol kills his cousin, as he took the Ring from Deagol's hand (after killing him) I swear I could hear Sauron chuckle. I re-winded and watched that exact sequence again and I hear the exact same thing. Anyone else noticed it? I guess you have to pay attention and probably need to have your volume turned way up.
This is a very small thing, but I absolutely love the look on Theoden's face right as the Witch King attacks him. Obviously immediately grasping that he's about to die, he doesn't yell or shout. He doesn't really emote that much at all. He just lets out a sigh.
Lighting the beacons is something that has been used for millennia. There was a Chinese King You of the Zhou dynasty whose mistress enjoyed seeing the armies assemble when the beacons were lit and so he would do it just to amuse her. As you say, it is expensive as hell to keep them stocked, so eventually his armies started ignoring his calls for aid--and then, of course, they didn't come when he actually was invaded. The king was killed and his mistress was captured. History does not tell what fate befell her. I do not know who was consulted about this scene, but it is remarkably accurate. It is actually what the Great Wall of China was used for--more so than border defense. It gave the beacon-tenders a place to hang out while they did their very-boring job. I used to show my students the Lighting the Beacons scene from ROTK to demonstrate what it looked like. They LOVED it. It was brilliantly done. Still gives me goosebumps. Oh, and when my daughter and I need something from each other, we say "Gondor calls for aid!" ua-cam.com/video/QhRFaY8A9cA/v-deo.html
I haven't finished but I want to point out that in addition to despair, the film directly addresses how different people face certain death. Theoden charges out to meet it, Denethor retreats to meet it on his own terms, Frodo accepts it but is not paralyzed by it, Eowyn throws herself between it and her loved ones, the remaining Fellowship has Gimli's attitude "Certainty of death? Small chance of success? What are we waiting for?" (additionally Gimli and Legolas face it with a friend), Sauron and Saruman are terrified of it and attempt to cheat it, and until it is literally unforeseeable that anything else can happen- Sam defies it and denies its power with hope.
This one was my favourite of the three Ruminations, thank you again Lore. Now time for the Hobbit trilogy, and to be honest i am more curious to see this one, because the LoTR trilogy is dear to me and i knew they were great movies and how i felt about them, but i am very conflicted about the Hobbit trilogy and i want to hear your opinion on it, perhaps it will help me see it more clearly and finally decide how i feel about it.
I really enjoyed Peter Jacksons take on the Beacons in the commentary on the DVDs Imagining those guys up on Beacon Duty and maybe it even being it hereditary with a Father passing on a box of matches to his son....
I'm watching these super late, but I know you check comments still, so - ohmygod the Shelob scene terrified me. I have a massive fear of spiders, so I'm barely able to stomach that scene every time I've seen this movie.
I have now finished watching all six of your ruminations for the Hobbit/LOTR series. It was well done and you deserve all the praise and accolades you have received. I'm an avid Tolkien Nerd myself and have a real passion for Middle-Earth. I have Anduril displayed behind glass doors in a book case. In short, "End, No the journey doesn't End here...."
I've only just found these, but I'm loving them. I love the irony that Frodo goes after the ring once Gollum has it. They did three versions of it which they cover in behind-the-scenes stuff. So even though Frodo wasn't being heroic, the Ring ultimately caused it's own destruction as it goes over the edge as two people fight over it, boosted by the Ring's voice chanting the black speech over their struggle. Very insightful videos, very poignant stuff, will be checking out your others.
Sauron, The Reapers, & The Dominion all know one thing plainly, and I fully support them in this: Your enemies are weakest when divided. If you can get even one to quit the game, not to hurt the other but just to not actively oppose you, then that’s an entire faction of people, resources, tactics, technologies, and other things you no longer have to worry about when dealing with your enemies. You’ll have to worry about them eventually, but for now they’ve given you an advantage that cannot be overlooked. Even the smallest nation can give a Warrior, or an engineer, or worse a Poet, and then your side is screwed for a couple battles that might decide the war. Get them to sit out, and suddenly the enemy troops don’t have that leader, that advantage, or that inspiration. Instead they lose hope, because no one is coming to save them.
1:14:00 - it's nice that this ties in so neatly with the B5 speech you covered on "because your CO has the moral authority to do so" - Theodin has the moral authority again to be able to do that. He's finally managed to become kingly again in his own eyes not just the eyes of his men (Who am I Gamling? You are our king, sire.).
One thing about Lord of the Rings which pushes it above most literature is that friendship is not taken lightly. In most books and films there is a great emphasis placed on romance but not the bond of friendship and I think even in real live we take friendship for granted and we really cant experience it in its fullest because we have not gone through what these characters have. In these movies we have at least four different examples of true friendship and when these friendships are shaken as it is with Frodo and Sam it is not a light thing or a minor annoyance it is devastating to the characters and to those of us watching and that I think is why I cry so much in this movie because the emotions I'm feeling are real not second hand like I would experience in most media.
I think Deagol and Smeagol so quickly fought and killed over the Ring because there was a direct challenge over the Ring sparking their lust over it. Whereas Bilbo found it alone, hid it in his pocket, then kept it a secret to everyone. If Deagol had also kept it out of sight of Smeagol there wouldn't have been a fight. All the other times it was handed over it was by people aware of its power and knew they had to resist its call, where as the riverfolk didn't have that knowledge.
Loved this Rumination Arch...I was surprised you didn't mention the physical similarities between Pippin and Faramir and how good was the actors' casting ; the uncanny similarity between them is why Denethor accepted Pippin's servitude in the first place: it (subconsciously?) reminded him of Faramir when he was a child.
One moment I don't think you mentioned that I love is they all watch with utter joy and disbelief as Barad-dur collapses, and Merry cheers "frodo!", then Mt. Doom explodes and they show us all of their expresssions again, which have turned to a sort of silent horror at the fact that they think their friend is dead.
So glad I discovered this channel, watched this trilogy and the Star Wars and MGS videos and all were great. Keep up the good work buddy and curious question are you considering doing a rumination on Rogue One?
I really really liked your thoughts on Lord of the Rings, which is one of my favourite movie series (along with the old Star Trek movies) ^^ And just a quick anecdote concerning Shelob, I remember my younger brother playing a Lord of the Rings computer game a few years ago and coming to my room asking me to play the Shelob part for him because he was afraid of spiders. It's actually a very sweet memory for me because we've never been particularly close and he rarely asked me for help...
I love that the Ring is destroyed over a struggle between Frodo and Gollum, rather than Gollum just...”tripping.” That the Ring never let go of Frodo until the very very end.
Still binging off Mass Effect, coming up on my yearly watch of the trilogy. I like bringing these into the car and listening as if podcast. Of course that means I'm debating with _no one_ , in the car, like a silly person.
I love your explanation of "too many engings" - I agree, it was needed, even if not every cinema goer understood it. But I hope that every Tolkien fan saw it as needed. :)
My thoughts on the deer-in-the-headlight scene: Sauron thinks he already knows where the ring is (that Aragorn must have it), so while he's curious about why a hobbit is in mordor and if maybe this one was the captured one escaped from the fortress he doesn't immediately assume Frodo has it instead. He doesn't have much time to consider it before being distracted by the men of the west. It's implied in earlier scenes in Bree and Amon Hen that Sauron, like the Nazul, can only see the ring with perfect clarity when it is being worn. Since Frodo isn't wearing it but only carrying it, Sauron doesn't immediately see it clearly through his shirt. Sauron is incapable of thinking that anyone would voluntarily choose to destroy the ring. That's why Mt. Doom isn't ringed by armies of orcs 24/7, and why he doesn't jump to the conclusion that Frodo is taking it there. The fact that he only sees a single unarmed, unguarded hobbit would also not indicate a mission of great importance or the presense of a precious treasure. Once Frodo actually claims the ring and puts it on, we see Sauron immediately sense it even through the mountain, focusing his attention there and sending the nazgul straight for it. I think that's the first time he realizes that his enemies are seeking to destroy it. Also, we know from the books that the palantiri encourage all viewers, good and evil, to draw the wrong conclusions from the true facts they see. Most people focus on Denethor being drawn into despair, but Saruman and Sauron also draw the wrong conclusions (Saruman sees Sauron's buildup and assumes that it makes his victory inevitable, and Sauron sees Pippin and assumes he is the hobbit carrying the ring. And later when Aragorn challenges him for Denethor's palantir and then marches towards the black gate, Sauron thinks Aragorn must have the ring to be so overconfident).
It is stated earlier in the film that the enemy thinks that Pipin, I always thought that by taking Pipin out to confront the Nazgul that Gandalf was reinforcing that idea and further placing attention away from Frodo and Sam.
Lore -- I don't know if you still read all of your comments, especially ones made this long after you've posted the video... but... I wanted to tell you that you've made me laugh, cry, and think as I listened to your ruminations for LotR... I have now subscribed to your channel -- and, if finances allow, I will also join your Patreon supporters... I am heartily impressed, and extremely grateful... thank you...
Fantastic rumination and reminiscing for all three movies! I gotta say though, I have to disagree with you about "For Frodo" meaning anything other than "Frodo is dead, and we have lost. But we have not failed ourselves even at the end, we remain a brotherhood that never gave up on each other. Let's go face our ends together." I don't think there was the slightest hope in their hearts as they ran forth, and to me it makes what would have been their sacrifice THAT much more beautiful. Also, the line wasn't in the movies, but there is something at the beginning of The Two Towers where they ask themselves why they should waste the time to save Merry and Pippin and Aragorn says something to the effect of "If we are the sort of men to leave them to torment and death because our time and energy are more important than the lives of two simple hobbits, why do we bother fighting at all and who for?" Kind of the same sentiment, I think. Disregarding what would make sense to stay to true to their principles. Also just curious, because I know everybody says "Why don't they just ask the Eagles to take Frodo to Mordor", but do you know why they don't? I forget if it's mentioned in Return of the King, but I'm pretty sure it's explained at some point in The Silmarillion why the Eagles are so noninterventionist. If you haven't read it, I HIGHLY recommend it.
Around 1:11:00 I also think it's a great statement about his rule - He has become a bitter, old man. He basically had to lose fight after fight for his whole life. No hope, constantly losing land, people, soldiers and maybe his own mind. It makes sense to me that he thinks 'I just wish I'd died earlier so I would've been spared this responsibility' or 'Gondor should've fallen long ago', because that's pretty much his whole thing. Gondor has no allies, Rohan won't help us. I've literally lived my whole life trying to fulfill the duty of a King that doesn't exist, so how dare people try to help me now that we're at our end?
Great video Lorerunner, thanks. Pipeweed is tobacco. Anyone who says otherwise knows nothing at all about Tolkien himself. He loved to smoke pipes and wanted it in his work, but as Middle Earth is supposed to be our world long, long ago, explaining how a New World plant ended up in the part of the world that was supposed to be the progenitor of the Old World would have been tricky so by giving it a different name I think it helped gloss over that. Also potatoes come to mind.
One of my favorite moments is when faramir rides out to try to retake osgiliath, knowing he can't. And yet he tries because he so desperately wants approval; i can really empathize with this and I find it very tragic. You also mention many other points in the movie where people try what is nearly impossible and still succeed. Perhaps he thought he had to do the same.
this is absolutely at the top of my favourite movies list. I thought it was brilliant. anyone who thinks differently is certainly entitled to their opinion, however wrong they may be. ;')
When Gandolf is riding out with Pippin, that was from a cut scene of when they came to Ministerith, that as they arrived, they saw what was going on and then Gandolph saves the men in the retreat. And of course the charge they have a view of Farimir but it isn't him, it is some other actor.
I kind of have the thought that Souron placed all his hate and despair into the ring thinking it was his strength but I think him making that his power is what eventually takes him down. Of course because its in the ring it leaks into the bearer.
I wish the scene of Saruman's meeting with Frodo would make it in to the movies - such a powerful part of the story :) Frodo's words to Grima are so great, such wisdom! I would like to see such Frodo in PJ movies :)
imo these stories by JRRT are that rich that you can just keep on listening and you don't get bored!--when I was in middle school I overdosed on them the same way you describe--the books are even more incredible esp the SILMARILLION
The word tobacco is used in The Hobbit, but Tolkien later decided he’d rather not have “modern” (read post 1066) English words where possible. So in LOTR he used pipe-weed instead.
I kind of chuckled during the 1st obvious foreshadowing you talked about..the king got his crown back lol...It's in the title!!! Return of the king..of course he's gonna get his crown back LMAO love these vids man
hey arche love your stuff, been subscribed for a few months now. thank you for your work and the obvious love you put into these videos. one point regarding pipeweed is that it is stated to be tobacco or more accurately a variation of nicotiana. prologue page nine in fellowship.
The beacons: On the Ukrainian Steppes, a similar system was used to warn people that slavers were coming out of the Ural Mountains. Of course that was a very flat land with great visibility, but still. Also the French had a system similar to semaphore, where mechanical "flags" on towers were manipulated to signal the next tower, and so on.
Denethor was a tit. In the books he was a far better character. He actually prepares the city as best he can. You can do only so much in a movie though.
About sauron : sauron is one of the most powerful beings in the lotr universe. But i think it fits better the movies that sauron is the strongest there is. By implying that we the audience come to respect his devastating power since we know that nothing can stand in his way when he has the ring. But , its quite fascinating that sauron is the personalization of all evils. Greed , rage , hate , negative thoughts and fear. Now we not only fear sauron for his physical abilities but also he can understand the pain he inflicts on the characters . Now he is something more that a villain. He is daily emotions we all have deep inside.
1:36:45 I read it as that release you do when you're about to finish a project or something like that, and all that stuff you have been holding back just releases.
I think the "can't be killed by a man" thing had nothing to do with the gender of the person trying to kill him, keep in mind that the source material was written in the 50s and back then it was normal to use "man" as in "the human species". It's more about the fact that anyone who strikes a nazgul in return is harmed by their magic, so people probably started believing he could not be killed by mortal being and he surely reveled in this since the enemies fearing to even attack him would make him virtually invulnerable in battle and his presence would be even more terrifying. Then of course Eowin throws out the "I'm no man" line, in defiance of both her enemy and being held back because she's a woman in a medieval setting and she's trying to prove herself.
progste The prophecy that "no man can kill me" came from the much earlier Battle of Fornost, where a combined force of men and elves beat the Witch-King and forced him to flee. As I believe the then King of Gondor gave chase, the elf Glorfindel said that he would "not meet his end by man" or something along those lines. This is also significant because the guilt of not killing the Witch-King would eventually cause the King of Gondor to duel the Witch-King later on and never return, starting the rule of the Stewards. It's good stuff, check it out.
It's a nod to Macbeth, an homage that "no man born of woman" could kill Macbeth, causing him to become over confident. The Witch King was aware of the prophecy around him (Glorfindel and Elf had made it centuries earlier), he only realises that Eowyn is a woman at the end. Its not the only one in the trilogy, the Ent assault on the Uruk Hai is inspired by the Macbeth plot point about the Birnham wood moving to Dunsinane Hill or whatever.
Even in the 1650s, half a century after Shakespeare, it was well-established that "man" could be used to mean either "human" or "male human". Were it not still true in Tolkien's day, he wouldn't have included Eowyn's line "But no living man am I!" - the whole point of it is that it's the classic "misinterpreted ambiguous prophecy" trope that goes back at least as far as Greek tragedies and probably further. So, naturally, Eowyn, human but not male, and Merry, male but not human, are the ones to defeat the Witch-King, satisfying the letter of the prophecy while confounding the Witch-King's arrogant interpretation.
48:18 Yes, I saw this for the first time in the Cinema, and I did sob at that moment, even though I wasn't at all the type to be noisy in cinemas and spoil it for the rest of the audience.
Yeah I always hated denethor; that might've made him a little better. Otherwise he is simply just falling into despair. Maybe they didn't want another leader having his mind poisoned, and instead wanted to show how bad things are even without that.
1:02:30 Now that you mention it, I wonder if Gothmog is a Stand-in for Kaiser Wilhelm II. It wouldn't be the first reference Tolkien's time in the trenches is written all over LotR.
It's interesting that you point Gollum as the one most consumed by the ring after an hour and a half in. Don't you think Sauron himself was more possessed by the ring? Granted, the ring wants to be with him as much as he wants to be with it, but in all honesty I think the reason the ring "likes" being called precious is because that's what Sauron called it. Sauron wants it just as bad, if not more than Gollum.
The ring and sauron are one. Gandalf states this in the Fellowship. The ring IS his life force. Id wager that the ring was called "precious" by Sauron but only because he values his own life more than anything else in the world.
Amazing review Lore. Its been a dream of mine for the past year to see you eventually review these films, watching your analysis on ROTK was very satisfying in this regard. Looking forward to your opinions on the Hobbit films. While I dont outright bash them like others , IMO they were ultimately a net neutral at best and were totally unnecessary at worst. While I can absolutely say they have positives, Im hoping that you do highlight the perspective of a director knowing when enough is enough... a lesson that I felt Jackson either didnt learn or or forgot by the time he made those films. Wish fulfillment can be a dangerous thing if not controlled, it was this regard that made the Hobbit trilogy feel a bit gratuitous at times.
Jackson was never meant to direct the Hobit movies, Del Toro was the director until very late in the process and if he hadn't stepped in at the last min the Hobit films would not have been done at all.
I think in the Book its clear that Aragorn DOES believe the mouth of Sauron about Frodo being dead, he gets tempted by Sauron to switch sides, but refuses and leads the charge "For Frodo" Not to create a diversion for Frodo, but to die avenging Frodo. In the Movie its a bit more ambiguous, but i still feel its the same.
About 7.10. Saying absolute power corrupts is exactly the same as your thought because by default no one is 100% perfect ( for example God is for some people this perfect figure) So since not a single person is completely saint power will eventually change him even a little bit.
I'd say the reason why Tolkien did not want to call it tobacco is because it (and the word itself) are from the new world, and middle earth is clearly meant to represent Europe. But he loved smoking so much he couldn't resist including it, so just renamed it something vague.
Sauron always played the long game. The Witch King spent more than 600 years weakening Arnor before he bulldozed it. Sauron spent the first 2,000 years of the Third Age consolidating his control of the East and South of Middle Earth, throwing waves of invaders at Gondor to wear it down. The kingdoms of Men are as weak as they are because Sauron spent three millenia grinding them down.
To me the saddest part of Frodo telling Sam to go home is... HOW??? How on Earth is Samwise Gamgee supposed to get all the way back to the Shire from the fringes of Mordor all by himself?
Beacons are from actual history. Distant towns would send that they are attacked via lighting a giant bonfire and have them placed on the tallest nearest hill. It's the fastest way to send a message in pre-modern times. And yes, it means the town is under siege.
Well hills, yeah sure, not mountains and cliffs like that. I kinda forgive the director for doing this because its so cool. But in reality those mountains would be really hard do support with food, water and other important factors for thousand of years.
I don’t think Saruman was genuine at all in his peace offering - he just tried to what was left of his power to persuade Theoden. And Theoden’s hostility was only understandable given what Saruman has done to him. On Grima, I also think Legolas tried to stop him from stabbing Saruman. On Sauron, I do think his forces at this stage would have been strong enough to overrun Gondor and the rest of the West - Gondor and Rohan were the only veritable forces of men of the West, the elves were fading and the Dwarves has only just recovered Erebor. But Sauron rather than relying on brute force as you have argued he does, he has preferred to manipulate and weaken his opposition to the point that they no longer offer resistance. Gondor and Rohan were already almost neutralised, but Saruman’s defeat and the revelation of Isildur’s heir forced him to act more quickly. I don’t think the movie flings out the palantir of Minas Tirith at all - it wasn’t explicitly shown, but Denethor implicitly reveals that he has used it in his retort to Gandalf something go along the lines of “do you think the white tower cannot see”. I don’t remember if he was shown taking it to the pyre in the end. I know you don’t really draw on the books here, but concluding that Gondor doesn’t have an army and that it’s only a garrison at Minas Tirith defending it. Just because the movie doesn’t show Gondorian troops coming in from the rest of the land doesn’t mean there were no reinforcements from the rest of Gondor. Also, the despair of Denethor had clearly rubbed off and infected Minas Tirith’s defenders - which is why it took Gandalf rallying the troops to snap them out of it. I think Denethor’s hostility to Gandalf was also fuelled by the fact that he knew of Aragorn’s existence and saw Gandalf plotting to supplant him - something Theoden did not need to worry about. And I don’t think Denethor knew Faramir was alive - after he was kicked into the fire, and before he burned, when he saw Faramir open his eyes he was surprised he was still alive. Then he felt the fire consume him. I do completely agree that the army of the dead turned the tide - without them, the Corsairs would have been the final nail in the coffin.
In my opinion Theoden's speech at Pelennor fields is one of the best scenes in cinematic history. I get the goosebumps just thinking of that scene
Aww... you didn't talk about my two favourite moments... :(
1. Gandalf's speech about the afterlife
2. "But I can carry you!"
"but i can carry you" was good, but I prefer "shhaaaaarreee theee loaad"
Those are great moments. I think Gandalf is talking about the undying lands?
Sure, but it's in the context of death not being "the end". Basically after-life.
3. You bow to no one :)
4. When Frodo is crawling up Mount Doom, and you have this hand held camera along with a angelic music. Whats so beautiful about this scene is that after everything Frodo went through, torture, dragged down to a near watery death with wraiths, stung by a spider and a morgul blade, he keeps going. He somehow finds the will to crawl further up Mount Doom, and its one of the most beautiful, if not even the most beautiful moment in the trilogy.
Despite seeing RotK a dozen times, it took you to point it out that both Denethor and Theoden both lost their sons, but Theoden rose to fulfill his duties whereas Denethor used his son's death to get out of his. Great analysis !
Regarding Aragorn setting the Dead King free: I think it also demonstrates how Aragorn is meant to be the king, honoring his promise shows true kingliness and warmth towards people. It's what a true king should strife for.
Love that moment: "You are soldiers of gondor. No matter what comes through that gate you will stand your ground!" The look on Gandalf's face says it all
SW:toR: "You wish now that our places had been exchanged. That I had died and KotOR 3 had lived."
The fans: "Yes. I wish that."
(I stole this from a meme.)
Only if Chris Avellone had nothing to do with it.
@@Jokie155 Lol. Avellone was responsible for making the KotOR series interesting. Without him, it went straight back to being banal in TOR.
Kudos to you for going through the Shelob scene, when someone fights their fears, it's always appreciated by someone (y) Funny, just like LOTR demonstrates, bravery and facing fears great and small is something to be championed :)
I always felt that Legolas was trying to stop Grima from killing Saruman, but was obviously too late
That's how I saw it. Somebody you want to capture for information gets stabbed - well one stabbing isn't a guaranteed death, especially with their advanced healing arts. So stop the guy doing the stabbing before one stabbing becomes two. They didn't know Saruman would fall.
ZippyMrMw agreed
I agree. It's the only reason that would make sense
The ring was in hibernation for a long time. When it came out of the water it was hungry and powerfully so.
Hey Arch, I just subscribed last weekend and I dont usually comment however I felt it was necessary to leave one letting you know how much I appreciate your ruminations especially the ones from the FF Series. Not many youtubers in my opinion have the skill of knowing how to identify the defining themes in a work, as well as having the insight to unpack and expand on those themes in a very precise, articulate manner.. Keep up the great work!
The way you say Sauron turns my moisture meter up to 11
Gremlinda why is this such an underrated comment lol
same
Wasn't Denethor's palantir hinted at when he says "You think the eyes of the White Tower are blind? I have seen more than you know." to Galdalf?
M S Ram he was talking about his eyes. He is saying he has experienced a lot and he sees a lot, and the white tower is the huge courtyard pillar thing at the top of Minas Tirith, and he is the leader. It belong to him. HIS EYES
Dude just watch the appendices on the extended edition. Jackson himself states that even though it isn't shown on screen they definitely were trying to suggest that Denethor had a Palintir. The Palintir itself is even shown in a deleted scene where Aragorn shows Sauron the reforged Narsil (now Anduril).
@@macree01 See, I thought the orb Aragon shows the sword to is the same one Gandalf recovered from Saurman.
@@andrewlong9799 it is that is the palantir of Orthanc, but Minas Tirith and Minas Ithil also had one.
There was 7 palantir in total.
Max Acree it is also shown in the Ralph Baskee cartoon version of the lord of the rings, 1978. 😎
I don't know if anyone's already mentioned this but the second reason why the fifth ending exists is because it matches the last line of the book.
I watch it every time I am sad. And then I feel I have a hope. I love this movie.
Great ruminations, well done.
A few things to talk about:
First the crossroads scene and the crown of sunlit flowers. This is one of those scenes where the fanboys would have lynched Peter Jackson if Sam didn't say those words. Never underestimate the wrath of the Tolkien fans.
Same with "the multiple endings". These scenes were all in the book. Not sure why they are even considered multiple endings. Closure would be a better description.
And last but not least, Sam's final line "i'm back". Again, this is how the book ends. If this line had been omitted the fanboys would have burned New Zealand to the ground.
Never underestimate the wrath of the Tolkien fans.
The trouble with including the endings they did is that they left out the Scouring - and that serves an important role in the book - not only as a depiction of the experience of returning soldiers after any great war (in particular, the Great War), but also to break up the pacing and provide something of some substance in the midst of the epilogues and endings. Also, there's a thread that's more present in the books of the Hobbits' choice to accompany the Ring to Mordor coming at the cost of not alerting the Shire, rather than being able to go off an adventure and return to find home unchanged - which ties into a wider theme - that the Ring's discovery signals change and no matter who wins the war, nothing passed through the end of an Age unchanged.
one ending is missed, sort of....
Gandalf's mission is to defeat Sauron, in a way, (through the Hobbits) he succeeds, but his coming has come to an end... so he goes to Tom Bombardil, because, only he would know what to say to him, Gandalf also needed healing... but that healing needed to be from someone of his like, the undying lands would not yet in themselves give him healing.
The Orc's launching the heads of the fallen warriors of Gondor back at the defenders is a classic military tactic
blackvial it was used by the Mongols
This it has been used since ever in our world, we went as far to do it with sick bodies to kill of the cities being sieged
With regards to Pippin looking at Gandalf, i never looked at it like that. In my opinion Pippin was startled by looking at Gandalf and remembering his extreme desire to hold the Palantir again and thats what hit him. Also due to his sly look back at Gandalf at Isengard after he grabbed the Palantir and giving it to Gandalf.
Maybe it's just me, but when I watched the scene when Smeagol kills his cousin, as he took the Ring from Deagol's hand (after killing him) I swear I could hear Sauron chuckle. I re-winded and watched that exact sequence again and I hear the exact same thing. Anyone else noticed it? I guess you have to pay attention and probably need to have your volume turned way up.
This is a very small thing, but I absolutely love the look on Theoden's face right as the Witch King attacks him. Obviously immediately grasping that he's about to die, he doesn't yell or shout. He doesn't really emote that much at all. He just lets out a sigh.
Lighting the beacons is something that has been used for millennia. There was a Chinese King You of the Zhou dynasty whose mistress enjoyed seeing the armies assemble when the beacons were lit and so he would do it just to amuse her. As you say, it is expensive as hell to keep them stocked, so eventually his armies started ignoring his calls for aid--and then, of course, they didn't come when he actually was invaded. The king was killed and his mistress was captured. History does not tell what fate befell her.
I do not know who was consulted about this scene, but it is remarkably accurate. It is actually what the Great Wall of China was used for--more so than border defense. It gave the beacon-tenders a place to hang out while they did their very-boring job.
I used to show my students the Lighting the Beacons scene from ROTK to demonstrate what it looked like. They LOVED it. It was brilliantly done. Still gives me goosebumps.
Oh, and when my daughter and I need something from each other, we say "Gondor calls for aid!"
ua-cam.com/video/QhRFaY8A9cA/v-deo.html
I haven't finished but I want to point out that in addition to despair, the film directly addresses how different people face certain death. Theoden charges out to meet it, Denethor retreats to meet it on his own terms, Frodo accepts it but is not paralyzed by it, Eowyn throws herself between it and her loved ones, the remaining Fellowship has Gimli's attitude "Certainty of death? Small chance of success? What are we waiting for?" (additionally Gimli and Legolas face it with a friend), Sauron and Saruman are terrified of it and attempt to cheat it, and until it is literally unforeseeable that anything else can happen- Sam defies it and denies its power with hope.
Forgot to add: Gandalf teaches Pippin to not fear death, but welcome it warmly.
This one was my favourite of the three Ruminations, thank you again Lore.
Now time for the Hobbit trilogy, and to be honest i am more curious to see this one, because the LoTR trilogy is dear to me and i knew they were great movies and how i felt about them, but i am very conflicted about the Hobbit trilogy and i want to hear your opinion on it, perhaps it will help me see it more clearly and finally decide how i feel about it.
You are an amazing youtuber and an amazing person. Thank you very much for the fantastic content.
I really enjoyed Peter Jacksons take on the Beacons in the commentary on the DVDs
Imagining those guys up on Beacon Duty and maybe it even being it hereditary with a Father passing on a box of matches to his son....
In my country it was usually the nearest village that was tasked to watch it. quite useful during invasions.
I'm watching these super late, but I know you check comments still, so - ohmygod the Shelob scene terrified me. I have a massive fear of spiders, so I'm barely able to stomach that scene every time I've seen this movie.
I have now finished watching all six of your ruminations for the Hobbit/LOTR series. It was well done and you deserve all the praise and accolades you have received. I'm an avid Tolkien Nerd myself and have a real passion for Middle-Earth. I have Anduril displayed behind glass doors in a book case. In short, "End, No the journey doesn't End here...."
I've only just found these, but I'm loving them. I love the irony that Frodo goes after the ring once Gollum has it. They did three versions of it which they cover in behind-the-scenes stuff. So even though Frodo wasn't being heroic, the Ring ultimately caused it's own destruction as it goes over the edge as two people fight over it, boosted by the Ring's voice chanting the black speech over their struggle. Very insightful videos, very poignant stuff, will be checking out your others.
Sauron, The Reapers, & The Dominion all know one thing plainly, and I fully support them in this:
Your enemies are weakest when divided. If you can get even one to quit the game, not to hurt the other but just to not actively oppose you, then that’s an entire faction of people, resources, tactics, technologies, and other things you no longer have to worry about when dealing with your enemies. You’ll have to worry about them eventually, but for now they’ve given you an advantage that cannot be overlooked.
Even the smallest nation can give a Warrior, or an engineer, or worse a Poet, and then your side is screwed for a couple battles that might decide the war. Get them to sit out, and suddenly the enemy troops don’t have that leader, that advantage, or that inspiration. Instead they lose hope, because no one is coming to save them.
1:14:00 - it's nice that this ties in so neatly with the B5 speech you covered on "because your CO has the moral authority to do so" - Theodin has the moral authority again to be able to do that. He's finally managed to become kingly again in his own eyes not just the eyes of his men (Who am I Gamling? You are our king, sire.).
One thing about Lord of the Rings which pushes it above most literature is that friendship is not taken lightly. In most books and films there is a great emphasis placed on romance but not the bond of friendship and I think even in real live we take friendship for granted and we really cant experience it in its fullest because we have not gone through what these characters have. In these movies we have at least four different examples of true friendship and when these friendships are shaken as it is with Frodo and Sam it is not a light thing or a minor annoyance it is devastating to the characters and to those of us watching and that I think is why I cry so much in this movie because the emotions I'm feeling are real not second hand like I would experience in most media.
I think Deagol and Smeagol so quickly fought and killed over the Ring because there was a direct challenge over the Ring sparking their lust over it. Whereas Bilbo found it alone, hid it in his pocket, then kept it a secret to everyone. If Deagol had also kept it out of sight of Smeagol there wouldn't have been a fight. All the other times it was handed over it was by people aware of its power and knew they had to resist its call, where as the riverfolk didn't have that knowledge.
Return of the King was the only one I got to watch in theaters back then =)
progste same here!
Happened to me as well.
I wished he would talked more about the music and how it was integrated to the story. In my thoughts, it was the most important part of the story.
Loved this Rumination Arch...I was surprised you didn't mention the physical similarities between Pippin and Faramir and how good was the actors' casting ; the uncanny similarity between them is why Denethor accepted Pippin's servitude in the first place: it (subconsciously?) reminded him of Faramir when he was a child.
One moment I don't think you mentioned that I love is they all watch with utter joy and disbelief as Barad-dur collapses, and Merry cheers "frodo!", then Mt. Doom explodes and they show us all of their expresssions again, which have turned to a sort of silent horror at the fact that they think their friend is dead.
So glad I discovered this channel, watched this trilogy and the Star Wars and MGS videos and all were great. Keep up the good work buddy and curious question are you considering doing a rumination on Rogue One?
I don't actually decide what I Ruminate on, my Patrons do. Though I can tell you it's not on the block for the coming year.
Lorerunner well in either case I look forward to whatever upcoming videos you have planned.
I really really liked your thoughts on Lord of the Rings, which is one of my favourite movie series (along with the old Star Trek movies) ^^ And just a quick anecdote concerning Shelob, I remember my younger brother playing a Lord of the Rings computer game a few years ago and coming to my room asking me to play the Shelob part for him because he was afraid of spiders. It's actually a very sweet memory for me because we've never been particularly close and he rarely asked me for help...
Easily the best analysis I have seen of these films.
I love that the Ring is destroyed over a struggle between Frodo and Gollum, rather than Gollum just...”tripping.”
That the Ring never let go of Frodo until the very very end.
I love your lectures? notes? rumimations? Whatever it is its great :)
Still binging off Mass Effect, coming up on my yearly watch of the trilogy. I like bringing these into the car and listening as if podcast. Of course that means I'm debating with _no one_ , in the car, like a silly person.
I love your explanation of "too many engings" - I agree, it was needed, even if not every cinema goer understood it. But I hope that every Tolkien fan saw it as needed. :)
My thoughts on the deer-in-the-headlight scene:
Sauron thinks he already knows where the ring is (that Aragorn must have it), so while he's curious about why a hobbit is in mordor and if maybe this one was the captured one escaped from the fortress he doesn't immediately assume Frodo has it instead. He doesn't have much time to consider it before being distracted by the men of the west.
It's implied in earlier scenes in Bree and Amon Hen that Sauron, like the Nazul, can only see the ring with perfect clarity when it is being worn. Since Frodo isn't wearing it but only carrying it, Sauron doesn't immediately see it clearly through his shirt.
Sauron is incapable of thinking that anyone would voluntarily choose to destroy the ring. That's why Mt. Doom isn't ringed by armies of orcs 24/7, and why he doesn't jump to the conclusion that Frodo is taking it there. The fact that he only sees a single unarmed, unguarded hobbit would also not indicate a mission of great importance or the presense of a precious treasure.
Once Frodo actually claims the ring and puts it on, we see Sauron immediately sense it even through the mountain, focusing his attention there and sending the nazgul straight for it. I think that's the first time he realizes that his enemies are seeking to destroy it.
Also, we know from the books that the palantiri encourage all viewers, good and evil, to draw the wrong conclusions from the true facts they see. Most people focus on Denethor being drawn into despair, but Saruman and Sauron also draw the wrong conclusions (Saruman sees Sauron's buildup and assumes that it makes his victory inevitable, and Sauron sees Pippin and assumes he is the hobbit carrying the ring. And later when Aragorn challenges him for Denethor's palantir and then marches towards the black gate, Sauron thinks Aragorn must have the ring to be so overconfident).
Longbottom leaf is Tobacco. It's explained the the prolog.
It is stated earlier in the film that the enemy thinks that Pipin, I always thought that by taking Pipin out to confront the Nazgul that Gandalf was reinforcing that idea and further placing attention away from Frodo and Sam.
Lore -- I don't know if you still read all of your comments, especially ones made this long after you've posted the video... but... I wanted to tell you that you've made me laugh, cry, and think as I listened to your ruminations for LotR... I have now subscribed to your channel -- and, if finances allow, I will also join your Patreon supporters... I am heartily impressed, and extremely grateful... thank you...
Just wanted to say thank you for the kind thoughts. And yes, I really do read all my comments heh.
oh, I didn't doubt that you DID -- just that you'd STILL do so...
Fantastic rumination and reminiscing for all three movies! I gotta say though, I have to disagree with you about "For Frodo" meaning anything other than "Frodo is dead, and we have lost. But we have not failed ourselves even at the end, we remain a brotherhood that never gave up on each other. Let's go face our ends together." I don't think there was the slightest hope in their hearts as they ran forth, and to me it makes what would have been their sacrifice THAT much more beautiful.
Also, the line wasn't in the movies, but there is something at the beginning of The Two Towers where they ask themselves why they should waste the time to save Merry and Pippin and Aragorn says something to the effect of "If we are the sort of men to leave them to torment and death because our time and energy are more important than the lives of two simple hobbits, why do we bother fighting at all and who for?" Kind of the same sentiment, I think. Disregarding what would make sense to stay to true to their principles.
Also just curious, because I know everybody says "Why don't they just ask the Eagles to take Frodo to Mordor", but do you know why they don't? I forget if it's mentioned in Return of the King, but I'm pretty sure it's explained at some point in The Silmarillion why the Eagles are so noninterventionist. If you haven't read it, I HIGHLY recommend it.
Around 1:11:00
I also think it's a great statement about his rule - He has become a bitter, old man. He basically had to lose fight after fight for his whole life. No hope, constantly losing land, people, soldiers and maybe his own mind. It makes sense to me that he thinks 'I just wish I'd died earlier so I would've been spared this responsibility' or 'Gondor should've fallen long ago', because that's pretty much his whole thing.
Gondor has no allies, Rohan won't help us.
I've literally lived my whole life trying to fulfill the duty of a King that doesn't exist, so how dare people try to help me now that we're at our end?
Great video Lorerunner, thanks.
Pipeweed is tobacco. Anyone who says otherwise knows nothing at all about Tolkien himself. He loved to smoke pipes and wanted it in his work, but as Middle Earth is supposed to be our world long, long ago, explaining how a New World plant ended up in the part of the world that was supposed to be the progenitor of the Old World would have been tricky so by giving it a different name I think it helped gloss over that. Also potatoes come to mind.
One of my favorite moments is when faramir rides out to try to retake osgiliath, knowing he can't. And yet he tries because he so desperately wants approval; i can really empathize with this and I find it very tragic. You also mention many other points in the movie where people try what is nearly impossible and still succeed. Perhaps he thought he had to do the same.
this is absolutely at the top of my favourite movies list. I thought it was brilliant. anyone who thinks differently is certainly entitled to their opinion, however wrong they may be. ;')
When Gandolf is riding out with Pippin, that was from a cut scene of when they came to Ministerith, that as they arrived, they saw what was going on and then Gandolph saves the men in the retreat. And of course the charge they have a view of Farimir but it isn't him, it is some other actor.
I kind of have the thought that Souron placed all his hate and despair into the ring thinking it was his strength but I think him making that his power is what eventually takes him down. Of course because its in the ring it leaks into the bearer.
That Pippin impression oh my god xD
I wish the scene of Saruman's meeting with Frodo would make it in to the movies - such a powerful part of the story :) Frodo's words to Grima are so great, such wisdom! I would like to see such Frodo in PJ movies :)
Thanks for making my day at work so interesting.
imo these stories by JRRT are that rich that you can just keep on listening and you don't get bored!--when I was in middle school I overdosed on them the same way you describe--the books are even more incredible esp the SILMARILLION
The word tobacco is used in The Hobbit, but Tolkien later decided he’d rather not have “modern” (read post 1066) English words where possible. So in LOTR he used pipe-weed instead.
I kind of chuckled during the 1st obvious foreshadowing you talked about..the king got his crown back lol...It's in the title!!! Return of the king..of course he's gonna get his crown back LMAO love these vids man
hey arche love your stuff, been subscribed for a few months now. thank you for your work and the obvious love you put into these videos. one point regarding pipeweed is that it is stated to be tobacco or more accurately a variation of nicotiana. prologue page nine in fellowship.
The beacons:
On the Ukrainian Steppes, a similar system was used to warn people that slavers were coming out of the Ural Mountains. Of course that was a very flat land with great visibility, but still. Also the French had a system similar to semaphore, where mechanical "flags" on towers were manipulated to signal the next tower, and so on.
Is it just me or was the "fighting side by side with a friend" bit not brought up at all?
I'm not even mad, it just feels weird. XD
AAANDDDD THISSS ISS FORRR MYYY OLDDDDDDDDDD GAFFFFEEERRRRR !!!!!!!
Denethor was a tit. In the books he was a far better character. He actually prepares the city as best he can. You can do only so much in a movie though.
oh I have been waiting all week for this
About sauron : sauron is one of the most powerful beings in the lotr universe. But i think it fits better the movies that sauron is the strongest there is. By implying that we the audience come to respect his devastating power since we know that nothing can stand in his way when he has the ring. But , its quite fascinating that sauron is the personalization of all evils. Greed , rage , hate , negative thoughts and fear. Now we not only fear sauron for his physical abilities but also he can understand the pain he inflicts on the characters . Now he is something more that a villain. He is daily emotions we all have deep inside.
1:36:45 I read it as that release you do when you're about to finish a project or something like that, and all that stuff you have been holding back just releases.
Great video but...
30:14
....holy crap that scared me XD
What happened?
In the intro to the LOTR novel, it is explicitly mentioned that Longbottom Leaf is tobacco. This is canon straight from Tolkien.
Mark Sulkowski These Ruminations are based soley on information given in the movie series.
Yes, I know. However, if the movie _doesn't_ mention something, one should defer to the novel for the "real" answer.
Mark Sulkowski Mayhaps, cheers!
Amazing videos bro. Cheers from Greece
I thought the same thing with the film ending with Frodo and Sam on the cliff side.
I think the "can't be killed by a man" thing had nothing to do with the gender of the person trying to kill him, keep in mind that the source material was written in the 50s and back then it was normal to use "man" as in "the human species". It's more about the fact that anyone who strikes a nazgul in return is harmed by their magic, so people probably started believing he could not be killed by mortal being and he surely reveled in this since the enemies fearing to even attack him would make him virtually invulnerable in battle and his presence would be even more terrifying. Then of course Eowin throws out the "I'm no man" line, in defiance of both her enemy and being held back because she's a woman in a medieval setting and she's trying to prove herself.
progste The prophecy that "no man can kill me" came from the much earlier Battle of Fornost, where a combined force of men and elves beat the Witch-King and forced him to flee. As I believe the then King of Gondor gave chase, the elf Glorfindel said that he would "not meet his end by man" or something along those lines. This is also significant because the guilt of not killing the Witch-King would eventually cause the King of Gondor to duel the Witch-King later on and never return, starting the rule of the Stewards. It's good stuff, check it out.
It's a nod to Macbeth, an homage that "no man born of woman" could kill Macbeth, causing him to become over confident. The Witch King was aware of the prophecy around him (Glorfindel and Elf had made it centuries earlier), he only realises that Eowyn is a woman at the end.
Its not the only one in the trilogy, the Ent assault on the Uruk Hai is inspired by the Macbeth plot point about the Birnham wood moving to Dunsinane Hill or whatever.
Even in the 1650s, half a century after Shakespeare, it was well-established that "man" could be used to mean either "human" or "male human". Were it not still true in Tolkien's day, he wouldn't have included Eowyn's line "But no living man am I!" - the whole point of it is that it's the classic "misinterpreted ambiguous prophecy" trope that goes back at least as far as Greek tragedies and probably further. So, naturally, Eowyn, human but not male, and Merry, male but not human, are the ones to defeat the Witch-King, satisfying the letter of the prophecy while confounding the Witch-King's arrogant interpretation.
48:18 Yes, I saw this for the first time in the Cinema, and I did sob at that moment, even though I wasn't at all the type to be noisy in cinemas and spoil it for the rest of the audience.
Thanks Arch that was a great rumination trilogy. Looking forward to The Hobbit!!
Finally! Was really hyped for this episode!
26:28+
I was going to mention this, and I'm so glad you brought it up.
Those that don't know the details would think Denethor was just an ass-ole.
Yeah I always hated denethor; that might've made him a little better. Otherwise he is simply just falling into despair. Maybe they didn't want another leader having his mind poisoned, and instead wanted to show how bad things are even without that.
1:02:30
Now that you mention it, I wonder if Gothmog is a Stand-in for Kaiser Wilhelm II. It wouldn't be the first reference Tolkien's time in the trenches is written all over LotR.
It's interesting that you point Gollum as the one most consumed by the ring after an hour and a half in. Don't you think Sauron himself was more possessed by the ring? Granted, the ring wants to be with him as much as he wants to be with it, but in all honesty I think the reason the ring "likes" being called precious is because that's what Sauron called it. Sauron wants it just as bad, if not more than Gollum.
The ring and sauron are one. Gandalf states this in the Fellowship. The ring IS his life force. Id wager that the ring was called "precious" by Sauron but only because he values his own life more than anything else in the world.
Yes, It has been a treat! Thanks!
Skyrim in the background? Appropriate ;)
Hurt me to help we: "Why should I pay taxes?"
Amazing review Lore. Its been a dream of mine for the past year to see you eventually review these films, watching your analysis on ROTK was very satisfying in this regard. Looking forward to your opinions on the Hobbit films. While I dont outright bash them like others , IMO they were ultimately a net neutral at best and were totally unnecessary at worst. While I can absolutely say they have positives, Im hoping that you do highlight the perspective of a director knowing when enough is enough... a lesson that I felt Jackson either didnt learn or or forgot by the time he made those films. Wish fulfillment can be a dangerous thing if not controlled, it was this regard that made the Hobbit trilogy feel a bit gratuitous at times.
Jackson was never meant to direct the Hobit movies, Del Toro was the director until very late in the process and if he hadn't stepped in at the last min the Hobit films would not have been done at all.
1:17:48 even when you said it there... I teared up abit.
" Courage Merry, Courage for our friends "
Very interesting talk. Thank you 😊
I think in the Book its clear that Aragorn DOES believe the mouth of Sauron about Frodo being dead, he gets tempted by Sauron to switch sides, but refuses and leads the charge "For Frodo" Not to create a diversion for Frodo, but to die avenging Frodo. In the Movie its a bit more ambiguous, but i still feel its the same.
About 7.10. Saying absolute power corrupts is exactly the same as your thought because by default no one is 100% perfect ( for example God is for some people this perfect figure) So since not a single person is completely saint power will eventually change him even a little bit.
1:18:06 Mace? Don't you mean flail?
Please do a Kill Bill rumination!
great stuff as always
I wonder if Witch King of Angmar was permanently destroyed with Sauron.
why is it significant the christopher lee was impaled on a wooden spike. Is he a vampire in real life or something.
Chris Kounterstrike No idea. Might have been a reference to another movie he played in. Or his band?
Christopher Lee played the iconic Dracula. Many times.
ok thanks.. and wait he has a band? I bet its bluegrass
Death metal actually.
Some say he never died, but is still alive due to his vampire powers.
Does anyone understand the Christopher Lee impaled on wooden spike reference?
I'd say the reason why Tolkien did not want to call it tobacco is because it (and the word itself) are from the new world, and middle earth is clearly meant to represent Europe. But he loved smoking so much he couldn't resist including it, so just renamed it something vague.
Sauron always played the long game. The Witch King spent more than 600 years weakening Arnor before he bulldozed it. Sauron spent the first 2,000 years of the Third Age consolidating his control of the East and South of Middle Earth, throwing waves of invaders at Gondor to wear it down. The kingdoms of Men are as weak as they are because Sauron spent three millenia grinding them down.
Some people “think” it’s tobacco because Tolkien said it was tobacco.
To me the saddest part of Frodo telling Sam to go home is... HOW??? How on Earth is Samwise Gamgee supposed to get all the way back to the Shire from the fringes of Mordor all by himself?
Well, he got there to begin with.
Beacons are from actual history.
Distant towns would send that they are attacked via lighting a giant bonfire and have them placed on the tallest nearest hill.
It's the fastest way to send a message in pre-modern times.
And yes, it means the town is under siege.
Well hills, yeah sure, not mountains and cliffs like that. I kinda forgive the director for doing this because its so cool. But in reality those mountains would be really hard do support with food, water and other important factors for thousand of years.
I don’t think Saruman was genuine at all in his peace offering - he just tried to what was left of his power to persuade Theoden. And Theoden’s hostility was only understandable given what Saruman has done to him. On Grima, I also think Legolas tried to stop him from stabbing Saruman.
On Sauron, I do think his forces at this stage would have been strong enough to overrun Gondor and the rest of the West - Gondor and Rohan were the only veritable forces of men of the West, the elves were fading and the Dwarves has only just recovered Erebor. But Sauron rather than relying on brute force as you have argued he does, he has preferred to manipulate and weaken his opposition to the point that they no longer offer resistance. Gondor and Rohan were already almost neutralised, but Saruman’s defeat and the revelation of Isildur’s heir forced him to act more quickly.
I don’t think the movie flings out the palantir of Minas Tirith at all - it wasn’t explicitly shown, but Denethor implicitly reveals that he has used it in his retort to Gandalf something go along the lines of “do you think the white tower cannot see”. I don’t remember if he was shown taking it to the pyre in the end.
I know you don’t really draw on the books here, but concluding that Gondor doesn’t have an army and that it’s only a garrison at Minas Tirith defending it. Just because the movie doesn’t show Gondorian troops coming in from the rest of the land doesn’t mean there were no reinforcements from the rest of Gondor. Also, the despair of Denethor had clearly rubbed off and infected Minas Tirith’s defenders - which is why it took Gandalf rallying the troops to snap them out of it. I think Denethor’s hostility to Gandalf was also fuelled by the fact that he knew of Aragorn’s existence and saw Gandalf plotting to supplant him - something Theoden did not need to worry about. And I don’t think Denethor knew Faramir was alive - after he was kicked into the fire, and before he burned, when he saw Faramir open his eyes he was surprised he was still alive. Then he felt the fire consume him.
I do completely agree that the army of the dead turned the tide - without them, the Corsairs would have been the final nail in the coffin.
1:31:30 maybe Sauron was in a panic mode