Thorin's dying quote in the book, is one of my all-time favorites: "if more of us valued food and song and cheer above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."
You put a lot of thought and hard work into these, it really shows. I already loved these films and you helped those feeling resurface. Thank you ever so much, keep up the great work!
"..even darkness must pass, a new day will come and when the sun shines it will shine out the clearer. Those were the stories that stayed with you. That meant something. Even if you were too small to understand why..." Thanks for doing these Arch
i want to thank you for doing these, i truly love all six films and it is a relief to hear some one acknowledge the flaws yet still come out smiling in the end. with so much negativity and hate on the Hobbit films and so many counter attacks it's nice to hear a calm, genuine view on these films. it may not be perfect, but it need not be gold to glimmer and shine
I love the scene where Thorin and the company join the battle because it's so true to the spirit of Tolkien's books. Yes, the addition of 13 more dwarves to this conflagration isn't going to amount to much on a purely by-the-numbers basis. But it's a huge morale boost to the dwarven army for their king to personally join the battle. It's just like in "The Two Towers" book. When Theoden, after being freed by Gandalf, proclaims that he has joined the battle finally, his soldiers are instantly rejuvenated. Remember, in the book, Theoden is in his eighties. So, again, the additional of one, frail, 80+ year-old to the battle isn't really going to change anything tactically speaking. But having the king personally join the troops gives them a massive morale jolt. Wonderful stuff.
Just watched all 6 movies (extended, duh), in LOTR -> Hobbit order, with your ruminations inbetween. Damn was that a journey. Surely going through this route once or twice more, thank you for all the effort.
What I love about the scene where Bilbo shows the seed to Thorin is that it is an acorn - an oak seed. I like to think that whenever Bilbo looked at the tree that grew from it, he was reminded of Thorin and the adventure that changed his life.
You went and made me cry at the end along with you. I've been watching quite a few of your videos over the last couple weeks, and this only seals the deal. You put a lot of care and effort into these ruminations and it shows. I only have one response to this: I'm subbing.
My favorite parts of the actual battle is to see how well the 13 dwarves work as one in battle. You have the Thorin, Fili and Kili trinity and it makes sense with them being his heirs. You have Bombur, Bifur and Bofur working as one and then you also have them all working as one. I'm sure there are other specific cases of this in the background that I missed but those are the ones that stood out for me and it really elevated my enjoyment and makes me really glad they added it in the extended edition. You also see the elves are split into "teams" of about three to five that you see fight back to back as one. The little details are everywhere and really makes it more believeable.
I can't believe you missed the significance of Alfred's death! They kept sparring his life and keeping him alive even though he was selfish and greedy but ultimately it pays off because whether he intends it or not he does play a pivotal role in the history of middle earth! His presence in the battle and being shot into the trolls mouth actually saves Gandalfs life! If not for Alfrid, Gandalf would not be alive for the events of LOTR and we wpuld only have evil Saruman as the main wizard! It's the same theme of sparring Gollum.
Hey lore, thanks a lot for the hard work and effort that you put into creating these series of ruminarions for the last6 weeks. I love these movies, they're among my favorites of all time, and you've helped me learn and understand so much about them. So many insights and new perspectives that I haven't considered, it's amazing. I would also like to seize this opportunity to thank you for your continuous effort in your channel. I can say without a shadow of a doubt that yours is my favourite youtube channel because it has a huge level of discussion and analysis that is for the most part objective, honest and in depth. You have no idea how much I have learned about videogames and literary analysis thanks to your channel. In fact, you've inspired me to improve my own analysis, to the point where I'm considering pursing a degree in literature just to learn more about the subject. Because of time reasons I don't have the chance to catch your stream, but if I could, I would definitely love to. Anyway, thanks again and keep up the incredible work. PD: I've never liked the Star Wars movies (yes I know, I'm a heretic and deserve the worst), and yet after watching your Ruminations and discussions of those movies, I wish I could see the Star Wars that you see.
When I first watched the desolation of smaug my first thought was that the third movie had to end when Gandalf shows up in fellowship, there was no other way it could have ended and I was so glad they did that. I should point out that in the behind the scenes they do state the 5th army is the orc reinforcements, not the eagles and beorn. Tolkien himself stated in the book that the 5 armies were elves, men, dwarves, goblins and wargs. He never considered the eagles as the the 5th army
When the film did the fake "The antagonist is dead" scene, I found myself wishing consciously wishing they'd break convention, and have the main antagonist die in such a novel way that they played with. I was watching the film, saying "please be dead, please don't burst through the ice. Let him die from being outsmarted" Nope. Movie went full hollywood and needed a final, skin-of-the-teeth death. Not that it's not done well, but it was just so predictable I was sincerely hoping they wouldn't do exactly what they wound up doing.
with regards to dragons in the setting they are a dark force power (see the silmarillion) but to Morgoth not Sauron. so smaugs holds no loyalty to him as far as i understand the character
Yes - they are not "natural" creatures, there are not males and females and dragons do not have children. They were each "purpose built" by Morgoth when he saw that Orcs were insufficient to stop the best of the Elves. Smaug was of a later batch that could fly, the original Dragon was Glaurung and he had no wings but was very smart and had hypnotic powers. I agree (after some reluctance) with Lorerunner that Smaug isn't that smart overall. I think Morgoth was reluctant to have too many very intelligent creatures in his service for fear of competition. Glaurung had to be smart, because in his day the Elves and Men were so potent that any advantage possible was necessary (and Glaurung was also a military commander, Smaug was air support).
i think smaug would tow to sauron if demanded by sauron, yes it would be harder for Sauron to do than for Morgoth but he was the second in command to Morgoth.
I love your ruminations on these trilogies and I wholeheartedly agree on your opinions! I think a lot of the harsh criticisms come from the fact that it wasn't "as good" as Lord of the Rings... but I think it did a really good job. Yeah, I didn't like some of the bad CGI and I also thought that some fight scenes looked rather goofy. But it's a great story nonetheless and manages to convey a lot of emotion.
I’ve always liked the theory that Sauron needed the Dwarven ring to appear as the Necromancer. The concept being that he only could act as a shadow and contracted Azog to get him *a* ring, giving him the location of where both one ring was and his current targets: the kings of the line of Durin. Once he has a dwarven ring, he can take his Necromancer form (sort of as a proxy for his own ring, maybe a stopgap), and he summons the nine other rings with their Wraiths to show Azog his actual power. Then Galadriel destroys/damages the dwarven ring, he loses his ability to control his form, and so he decides to stick with his fire eye this next time.
The acorn scene was so good. The way Thorin smiles at Bilbo and has this soft look... and then fucking Dwalin has to ruin the moment. It's also very interesting that Thorin is all "I will not part with a single coin", but also "oh Bilbo, here, have this priceless mithril shirt also you are the only one I trust".
I love how well they conveyed the Lake Towners as refugees. They strike me as almost Rebel Alliance in their composition as a faction (i.e. desperate necessity, rather than regimented or a well-ordered faction that's well-established).
I just wanted to say that I love your take on these movies. I love Lotr, and while I didn't personally care much for the Hobbit, I still enjoy listening to you talk about why you do. To your point about the character deaths in a prequel, I agree 100%. To me, stakes in a story are not equivalent with whether or not a character dies. They can be, but most fiction that I, at least, take in are not works with large main character body counts. I don't go into a Star Wars movie, for example, curious on if the characters live or not. They pretty much always do. To me, the journey is at least as important as whether or not someone survives, especially if I already know they get out alive at the end.
I really enjoy your videos and as someone who tends to tear up at 'cheesy moments' I feel you really help me validate my own reaction to emotional moments. I have learned to embrace them and realize it isn't bad that I can invest and feel, but I like that someone as eloquent as you also does it. I was always weirded about how the hobbit is treated as a bad trilogy. I know it is faulty but I liked the moments it had too. Thanks for helping me feel better about that too.
1:06:07 (around there) Not sure if anyone has said this already in the comments, but i'm pretty sure Balin says in AUJ that Azog swore to wipe out the line of Durin. It IS established. Other than that, this analysis is brilliant and I love it!
Thank you for doing these. I actually watched those movies after I listened to your ruminations (never seen Hobbit before), and I really enjoyed them a lot.
With Aragorn and Grima, like Bard and Alfred, I think it comes back to Gandalf's speech about pity ans mercy. So I could see why for a King of Men, mercy is an important attribute (even though it is not always rewarded).
The Arkenstone is still with the dwarves with Erebor, so while it is with Thorin it is still there, and so gives some added legitimacy to the dwarves in Erebor to be seen as the leaders of what remains of the dwarves. The spiritual realm elves vs orcs thing is presumably because orcs were elves that were twisted and mutilated by Morgoth. Dragons were also created by Morgoth, so it’s interesting that he doesn’t appear with the same darkness. Could be that the centuries of not being steered by Morgoth or Sauron, his servant, meant some of the influence had waned. On why the entry of Thorin changed the battle, it’s not just the more tactical approach I think - it’s also the fact that the dwarves were now led by the person many thought of as their king and who rallied the dwarves to victory at the gates Khazad-dûm after Thror’s death, giving them a renewed sense of purpose and a huge morale boost. And just like the ending of the previous one was absolutely chilling, this one was both incredibly heartbreaking in the scenes of Thorin’s death and uplifting in Bilbo’s return home and fast forwarding to the start of the LotR trilogy.
passion is a hard thing to create in a work , i think a lot of us can agree these films this universe of fantasy is a monument to our passion and lorerunner thank you for bringing it in every video, Stream and interaction.
Would have been really neat if Kili had convinced Tariel to come back to the mountain, only for Thorin to deny her entry because she's not part of the company.
It was a character trait of Saruman that he did not have much grit or plain courage compared to Gandalf. The books spell it out, telling rather than showing. Merry the hobbit spells it out for the readers and for Gimli and Legolas, just in case they missed that. Want to know the answer to the dragon sickness question? My Little Pony had an idea - Dragon Sickness makes a dragon grow unnaturally large and act greedy and scary. If they're not afflicted, they have their own dispositions.
i think Sauron just decided to leave since the battle gained him no real advantage, his armies where already marching towards the mountain, Mordor was ready for his return. i think if this battle happened again during the war of the ring Sauron would come out the victory as his strength had grown by then. the battle had also permanently depleted Galadriel's power to a degree.
I really enjoy your ruminations. I loved the bit when the company of dwarves charges into battle after sounding the horn of Erebor. I don't understand why these movies get so much flak, it is really sad.
I did wonder if Tauriel was going to die, possibly alongside Kili. I also wish Beorn had turned up and taken out Azog in bear form and just wrecked his s**t. The added violence does make the third film a 15 in the UK, so definitely age ratings. Love the Dul Guldur scene, love Christopher Lee finally getting to be heroic and badass at the same time.
I am so sorry if I remember correctly it was Tauriel to threat thranduild with her bow, and this is by all mean a crime. do you really think you can point an arrow between your king's eye s and get away with it? thranduil was more than right to do what he did
its a old video but, at 35:20, I think this is a oversight, dragon are a creation of Morgoth as are the orcs. I dont think there is a way for a corrupt creation not be tainted in the other side
in setting Dragon sickness is named so, for it turns people into dragons... for it is said, a dragon without dragon sickness, is man... or rather, a true human is an imposition of a dragon and a human, the sickness of Ungol, known by nearly all man, is the divorcing of man from the light of his innate magic & power *(Tom Bombadil is one of the few free from it), but, the sickness of the dragon, is the divorcing of power from the humane.
To answer your question at around 34 min, since Dragons were made by Morgoth - and made for war and domination, I would surmise that by default dragons would be malevolent and prideful forces. Apex predators who viewed themselves as superior to all others, not unlike dragons in say, Elder Scrolls Skyrim. Dragon sickness - or in the case of dragons- the hoarding of treasure, is probably just the natural tendency of the species, like some birds. Something they go back to when not ruled by a stronger force - whether that be a stronger dragon or some higher Maiar or Valar. He saw himself above most other life forms - kind of like a bully on the playground. In this case, Smaug was likely only 'neutral' as you say either because there was no leader to prove themselves superior, or he was born after the falls of Morgoth and Sauron or was otherwise too far away from Middle Earth to be caught in its struggles and so went on living in his own way. The coloration of bodies in the movie I think is just an obvious movie trope. After all, if those who were corrupted were displayed as black, the Ringwraiths should have also been black as they were completely dominated by Sauron's will.
The fifth army IS the orc army from Gundabad. The Eagles are not and have never been the fifth army, not even in the book where the fifth army is the wolves. In original drafts, it was the Battle of Seven Armies which counted an army of Eagles and an army of Bears. But Tolkien changed that. The cartoon thinks the Eagles count but it’s wrong.
I like these ruminations on the Hobbit movies. Don’t necessarily completely agree with all of it :), but it’s an interesting perspective. On your point about Smaug not being a servant of darkness, I thought that was a bit strange given that in the lore of the universe created by Tolkien dragons were the creation of Morgoth, Sauron’s master... so Smaug really should show up as a dark force in the spirit realm. Also, on the use of the term “high eleven”, Thranduil and his people are not high elves. That term is usually used on Tolkien’s lore about the Noldor, who travelled to the lands of Aman after the awakening and some of whom returned to Middle Earth to wage war on Morgoth for stealing the Silmarils, not those who stayed in Middle Earth. So Galadriel, being of the Noldor who returned to Middle Earth, is a high elf. Thranduil, being a Silvan elf is not. And I think you got it spot on about the battle and how well the Elves and Dwarves fought together. But in a sense, the battle faces off quality (dwarves and elves) over quantity (orbs who breed like rabbits). So it’s realistic within the world that they face waves after waves of orcs. But I don’t agree on Sauron not being devious. He manipulated both Saruman and Denethor, with the former joining him outright and the latter descending into despair and madness (had it not been for Gandalf’s presence at Minas Tirith, the city would have fallen without a leader long before Aragorn arrived). Hell, he manipulated Celebrimbor, the grandson of Fëanor who forged the silmarils and the master smith of his era among the elves on Middle Earth, to forge the rings of power, only to betray him by forging the one ring. And he manipulated the Númenoreans to turn against the Valar causing their downfall. Sauron was a master of manipulation. But he was also prone to overplay his hand when he thought his position was unassailable. When he first rose against Númenor, he was soundly thrashed. When he killed Celebrimbor after he refused to hand over the three rings he created for the elves, he prompted the alliance of Elendil and Gil-Galad who defeated him at the cost of their own lives. In his lust for power, the creation of the one ring also created the means to destroy him. In the return of the king, he would have crushed the ragtag army of men and elves pitted against him, but he did not even for a moment consider someone would seek to destroy the ring rather than claim its power. At Erebor the death of Smaug forced his hand, but he likely thought Azogs armies would overwhelm the armies of the elves, men and dwarves. And they likely would have, had it not been for the final army to arrive and Thorin taking out Azog from providing leadership to the Orcs. I also thought Azog’s obsession with Thorin was made clear in the first movie - at the battle at the gates of Moria where Azog first slew Thorin’s grandfather, Thorin defeated Azog’s army after chopping his hand off. And the desire for revenge had been gnawing at Azog for the decades since then.
I may be wrong but I think Thranduil is a Sindar, not a Sylvan elf. The Sindarin didn't get the grace of the valars - like Galadriel did - but they were touched by it.
You asked where the other armies came from, meaning you seemed to think it a bit plot convenient that all these races had all these hitherfore unknown armies laying around just in time for the climax. The part of me that really likes these prequels saw it this way: The fact that everybody whipped out an army so fast shows us the balance of power that is maintained on Middle Earth in a Post Sauron world. Everyone has an army, and they can just be whipped out a moments notice and start horrific wars. In a way it's their version of the nuclear deterrent. So as a prequel to LOTR the point of Battle of the Five Armies is to show how truly fragile the balance of power and the peace of Middle Earth due to the existence of these huge armies. More so it's to show us that the balance of power and the peace are so fragile that one small thing, such as a rag tag group of dwarves on a quest could threaten to plunge the whole world into war. So if you look at it as an allegory for nuclear deterrent it makes this movie thematically important. (p.s. the part of me that didn't like this movie, found it totally contrived that five armies just snuck up outta no where in time for the climactic climax).
it would make sense the free people would keep armies around since there are still Harad, Rhun and orcs and goblins of the mountains around still and plus Sauron could return again like he did. the fifth army is actually the wargs in the book.
Regarding the Orc army; I'm not just curious as to where they came from, but also how they're so heavily armed, armored & so disciplined. Also, why do they have no being in sunlight.
My only possible issue with your spirit realm theory, and maybe I missed something, but aren't the ring wraiths glowing white despite them being vessels for saurons will? They're basically evil incarnate.
nah Gandalf the white is the most powerful ring wielder as he stated in the book he himself said only if brought before the dark lord himself in chains would you be in front of someone greater than myself. to be honest sauron did try deception before and it resulted in numernoir sinking and him losing his fair form for ever, so i guess maybe he decided deception is not worth it. The Witch king should not be able to beat Gandalf never liked that scene in return of the king preferred the book confrontation between the two.
For me, the Tauriel/Kili romance was killed by the sequence where they keep taking turns saving each other from mortal peril. By about 2/3 of the way through, I was muttering "one of you die already!" which is clearly not the best mindset for rooting for a romance to work out... For me, the battles in this movie (and to a lesser extent earlier movies in the series) exemplify what happens in games like D&D when you get to higher levels - Thorin and his companions clearly had at least half a dozen levels on most of the other participants in the battle, so mowed through them like a high-level character through level 0 soldiers... It's a pretty good illustration of why the traditional power-ramp with level is broken from a simulationist perspective - it makes experienced characters too much better than the fodder...
Damn man, you were waaay to lenient with this movie. There were dozens of faults with this movie that weren't even kind of mentioned. You kinda let everyone elses hate for this movie push you way to far the other way. I mean, there were some amazing scenes in this movie. But there were so many facepalming scenes too. Other then that, very good rumination series.
Where these orc armies comes from? Trust me, you do not want to know all the filthy details of orc procreating. Seems outside fighting, that is all they do in their free time.
Thorin's dying quote in the book, is one of my all-time favorites: "if more of us valued food and song and cheer above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."
You put a lot of thought and hard work into these, it really shows. I already loved these films and you helped those feeling resurface. Thank you ever so much, keep up the great work!
"..even darkness must pass, a new day will come and when the sun shines it will shine out the clearer. Those were the stories that stayed with you. That meant something. Even if you were too small to understand why..."
Thanks for doing these Arch
One of my favorite quotes from this movie: “Your mother loved you, Legolas. More than anything. More than Life.” 😭😭😭❤️❤️❤️❤️🦁🙏
i want to thank you for doing these, i truly love all six films and it is a relief to hear some one acknowledge the flaws yet still come out smiling in the end. with so much negativity and hate on the Hobbit films and so many counter attacks it's nice to hear a calm, genuine view on these films. it may not be perfect, but it need not be gold to glimmer and shine
I love the scene where Thorin and the company join the battle because it's so true to the spirit of Tolkien's books. Yes, the addition of 13 more dwarves to this conflagration isn't going to amount to much on a purely by-the-numbers basis. But it's a huge morale boost to the dwarven army for their king to personally join the battle.
It's just like in "The Two Towers" book. When Theoden, after being freed by Gandalf, proclaims that he has joined the battle finally, his soldiers are instantly rejuvenated. Remember, in the book, Theoden is in his eighties. So, again, the additional of one, frail, 80+ year-old to the battle isn't really going to change anything tactically speaking. But having the king personally join the troops gives them a massive morale jolt. Wonderful stuff.
Just watched all 6 movies (extended, duh), in LOTR -> Hobbit order, with your ruminations inbetween. Damn was that a journey. Surely going through this route once or twice more, thank you for all the effort.
What I love about the scene where Bilbo shows the seed to Thorin is that it is an acorn - an oak seed. I like to think that whenever Bilbo looked at the tree that grew from it, he was reminded of Thorin and the adventure that changed his life.
You went and made me cry at the end along with you. I've been watching quite a few of your videos over the last couple weeks, and this only seals the deal. You put a lot of care and effort into these ruminations and it shows. I only have one response to this: I'm subbing.
My favorite parts of the actual battle is to see how well the 13 dwarves work as one in battle.
You have the Thorin, Fili and Kili trinity and it makes sense with them being his heirs.
You have Bombur, Bifur and Bofur working as one and then you also have them all working as one.
I'm sure there are other specific cases of this in the background that I missed but those are the ones that stood out for me and it really elevated my enjoyment and makes me really glad they added it in the extended edition.
You also see the elves are split into "teams" of about three to five that you see fight back to back as one. The little details are everywhere and really makes it more believeable.
I can't believe you missed the significance of Alfred's death! They kept sparring his life and keeping him alive even though he was selfish and greedy but ultimately it pays off because whether he intends it or not he does play a pivotal role in the history of middle earth! His presence in the battle and being shot into the trolls mouth actually saves Gandalfs life! If not for Alfrid, Gandalf would not be alive for the events of LOTR and we wpuld only have evil Saruman as the main wizard!
It's the same theme of sparring Gollum.
Congrats Lore on the double trilogy rumination. It was great to hear your thoughts on these masterpieces.
Thanks for the passion and honesty you display in all of your Ruminations, it's really what makes your videos stand out!
Hey lore, thanks a lot for the hard work and effort that you put into creating these series of ruminarions for the last6 weeks. I love these movies, they're among my favorites of all time, and you've helped me learn and understand so much about them. So many insights and new perspectives that I haven't considered, it's amazing.
I would also like to seize this opportunity to thank you for your continuous effort in your channel. I can say without a shadow of a doubt that yours is my favourite youtube channel because it has a huge level of discussion and analysis that is for the most part objective, honest and in depth. You have no idea how much I have learned about videogames and literary analysis thanks to your channel. In fact, you've inspired me to improve my own analysis, to the point where I'm considering pursing a degree in literature just to learn more about the subject. Because of time reasons I don't have the chance to catch your stream, but if I could, I would definitely love to.
Anyway, thanks again and keep up the incredible work.
PD: I've never liked the Star Wars movies (yes I know, I'm a heretic and deserve the worst), and yet after watching your Ruminations and discussions of those movies, I wish I could see the Star Wars that you see.
Anti arrow artillery? I think the official term is "old twirly whirlies".
“How you like the ol twirly whirlies, you bugger” great line!
When I first watched the desolation of smaug my first thought was that the third movie had to end when Gandalf shows up in fellowship, there was no other way it could have ended and I was so glad they did that. I should point out that in the behind the scenes they do state the 5th army is the orc reinforcements, not the eagles and beorn. Tolkien himself stated in the book that the 5 armies were elves, men, dwarves, goblins and wargs. He never considered the eagles as the the 5th army
When the film did the fake "The antagonist is dead" scene, I found myself wishing consciously wishing they'd break convention, and have the main antagonist die in such a novel way that they played with. I was watching the film, saying "please be dead, please don't burst through the ice. Let him die from being outsmarted" Nope. Movie went full hollywood and needed a final, skin-of-the-teeth death. Not that it's not done well, but it was just so predictable I was sincerely hoping they wouldn't do exactly what they wound up doing.
You are a hidden gem of youtube, like the Arkenstone
with regards to dragons in the setting they are a dark force power (see the silmarillion) but to Morgoth not Sauron. so smaugs holds no loyalty to him as far as i understand the character
Yes - they are not "natural" creatures, there are not males and females and dragons do not have children. They were each "purpose built" by Morgoth when he saw that Orcs were insufficient to stop the best of the Elves. Smaug was of a later batch that could fly, the original Dragon was Glaurung and he had no wings but was very smart and had hypnotic powers.
I agree (after some reluctance) with Lorerunner that Smaug isn't that smart overall. I think Morgoth was reluctant to have too many very intelligent creatures in his service for fear of competition. Glaurung had to be smart, because in his day the Elves and Men were so potent that any advantage possible was necessary (and Glaurung was also a military commander, Smaug was air support).
i think smaug would tow to sauron if demanded by sauron, yes it would be harder for Sauron to do than for Morgoth but he was the second in command to Morgoth.
I love your ruminations on these trilogies and I wholeheartedly agree on your opinions! I think a lot of the harsh criticisms come from the fact that it wasn't "as good" as Lord of the Rings... but I think it did a really good job. Yeah, I didn't like some of the bad CGI and I also thought that some fight scenes looked rather goofy. But it's a great story nonetheless and manages to convey a lot of emotion.
I’ve always liked the theory that Sauron needed the Dwarven ring to appear as the Necromancer. The concept being that he only could act as a shadow and contracted Azog to get him *a* ring, giving him the location of where both one ring was and his current targets: the kings of the line of Durin. Once he has a dwarven ring, he can take his Necromancer form (sort of as a proxy for his own ring, maybe a stopgap), and he summons the nine other rings with their Wraiths to show Azog his actual power. Then Galadriel destroys/damages the dwarven ring, he loses his ability to control his form, and so he decides to stick with his fire eye this next time.
The acorn scene was so good. The way Thorin smiles at Bilbo and has this soft look... and then fucking Dwalin has to ruin the moment.
It's also very interesting that Thorin is all "I will not part with a single coin", but also "oh Bilbo, here, have this priceless mithril shirt also you are the only one I trust".
I love how well they conveyed the Lake Towners as refugees. They strike me as almost Rebel Alliance in their composition as a faction (i.e. desperate necessity, rather than regimented or a well-ordered faction that's well-established).
I just wanted to say that I love your take on these movies. I love Lotr, and while I didn't personally care much for the Hobbit, I still enjoy listening to you talk about why you do. To your point about the character deaths in a prequel, I agree 100%. To me, stakes in a story are not equivalent with whether or not a character dies. They can be, but most fiction that I, at least, take in are not works with large main character body counts. I don't go into a Star Wars movie, for example, curious on if the characters live or not. They pretty much always do. To me, the journey is at least as important as whether or not someone survives, especially if I already know they get out alive at the end.
I really enjoy your videos and as someone who tends to tear up at 'cheesy moments' I feel you really help me validate my own reaction to emotional moments. I have learned to embrace them and realize it isn't bad that I can invest and feel, but I like that someone as eloquent as you also does it. I was always weirded about how the hobbit is treated as a bad trilogy. I know it is faulty but I liked the moments it had too. Thanks for helping me feel better about that too.
1:06:07 (around there) Not sure if anyone has said this already in the comments, but i'm pretty sure Balin says in AUJ that Azog swore to wipe out the line of Durin. It IS established. Other than that, this analysis is brilliant and I love it!
Thank you for doing these. I actually watched those movies after I listened to your ruminations (never seen Hobbit before), and I really enjoyed them a lot.
Don't choke up damnit now I'm choking up!
Thanks for sharing this with us Lorerunner, you're the best.
It was an amazing journey Lore, thank you. Now time to re-watch them :D
With Aragorn and Grima, like Bard and Alfred, I think it comes back to Gandalf's speech about pity ans mercy. So I could see why for a King of Men, mercy is an important attribute (even though it is not always rewarded).
The Arkenstone is still with the dwarves with Erebor, so while it is with Thorin it is still there, and so gives some added legitimacy to the dwarves in Erebor to be seen as the leaders of what remains of the dwarves.
The spiritual realm elves vs orcs thing is presumably because orcs were elves that were twisted and mutilated by Morgoth. Dragons were also created by Morgoth, so it’s interesting that he doesn’t appear with the same darkness. Could be that the centuries of not being steered by Morgoth or Sauron, his servant, meant some of the influence had waned.
On why the entry of Thorin changed the battle, it’s not just the more tactical approach I think - it’s also the fact that the dwarves were now led by the person many thought of as their king and who rallied the dwarves to victory at the gates Khazad-dûm after Thror’s death, giving them a renewed sense of purpose and a huge morale boost.
And just like the ending of the previous one was absolutely chilling, this one was both incredibly heartbreaking in the scenes of Thorin’s death and uplifting in Bilbo’s return home and fast forwarding to the start of the LotR trilogy.
It's interesting, the Nazgul appear white in LOTR when you're wearing the ring and Aragorn appeared black.
44:14 The beginning of fellowship of the ring. Battle of the Mount Doom.
passion is a hard thing to create in a work , i think a lot of us can agree these films this universe of fantasy is a monument to our passion and lorerunner thank you for bringing it in every video, Stream and interaction.
Would have been really neat if Kili had convinced Tariel to come back to the mountain, only for Thorin to deny her entry because she's not part of the company.
I love the Hobbit movies.
It was a character trait of Saruman that he did not have much grit or plain courage compared to Gandalf. The books spell it out, telling rather than showing. Merry the hobbit spells it out for the readers and for Gimli and Legolas, just in case they missed that.
Want to know the answer to the dragon sickness question? My Little Pony had an idea - Dragon Sickness makes a dragon grow unnaturally large and act greedy and scary. If they're not afflicted, they have their own dispositions.
When Galadriel confronts Sauron she had that bottle in her hand the Light of Eärendil, I wonder how much part that had in her ability to see him off.
i think Sauron just decided to leave since the battle gained him no real advantage, his armies where already marching towards the mountain, Mordor was ready for his return. i think if this battle happened again during the war of the ring Sauron would come out the victory as his strength had grown by then. the battle had also permanently depleted Galadriel's power to a degree.
It was a beautiful tearjerking ending
I really enjoy your ruminations. I loved the bit when the company of dwarves charges into battle after sounding the horn of Erebor. I don't understand why these movies get so much flak, it is really sad.
I did wonder if Tauriel was going to die, possibly alongside Kili. I also wish Beorn had turned up and taken out Azog in bear form and just wrecked his s**t. The added violence does make the third film a 15 in the UK, so definitely age ratings. Love the Dul Guldur scene, love Christopher Lee finally getting to be heroic and badass at the same time.
I am so sorry if I remember correctly it was Tauriel to threat thranduild with her bow, and this is by all mean a crime. do you really think you can point an arrow between your king's eye s and get away with it? thranduil was more than right to do what he did
its a old video but, at 35:20, I think this is a oversight, dragon are a creation of Morgoth as are the orcs.
I dont think there is a way for a corrupt creation not be tainted in the other side
in setting
Dragon sickness is named so, for it turns people into dragons...
for it is said, a dragon without dragon sickness, is man...
or rather, a true human is an imposition of a dragon and a human, the sickness of Ungol, known by nearly all man, is the divorcing of man from the light of his innate magic & power *(Tom Bombadil is one of the few free from it), but, the sickness of the dragon, is the divorcing of power from the humane.
on a totally different note, I can't wait for the WoW Legion lorerun to see you reaction to all the deaths :)
To answer your question at around 34 min, since Dragons were made by Morgoth - and made for war and domination, I would surmise that by default dragons would be malevolent and prideful forces. Apex predators who viewed themselves as superior to all others, not unlike dragons in say, Elder Scrolls Skyrim.
Dragon sickness - or in the case of dragons- the hoarding of treasure, is probably just the natural tendency of the species, like some birds. Something they go back to when not ruled by a stronger force - whether that be a stronger dragon or some higher Maiar or Valar. He saw himself above most other life forms - kind of like a bully on the playground. In this case, Smaug was likely only 'neutral' as you say either because there was no leader to prove themselves superior, or he was born after the falls of Morgoth and Sauron or was otherwise too far away from Middle Earth to be caught in its struggles and so went on living in his own way.
The coloration of bodies in the movie I think is just an obvious movie trope. After all, if those who were corrupted were displayed as black, the Ringwraiths should have also been black as they were completely dominated by Sauron's will.
35:10 when Melchor created the first dragon he couldn’t control it. Dragon sickness could have been his answer to help him control it.
The fifth army IS the orc army from Gundabad. The Eagles are not and have never been the fifth army, not even in the book where the fifth army is the wolves. In original drafts, it was the Battle of Seven Armies which counted an army of Eagles and an army of Bears. But Tolkien changed that. The cartoon thinks the Eagles count but it’s wrong.
Legolas should have just flown Frodo to Mt. Doom.
I like these ruminations on the Hobbit movies. Don’t necessarily completely agree with all of it :), but it’s an interesting perspective.
On your point about Smaug not being a servant of darkness, I thought that was a bit strange given that in the lore of the universe created by Tolkien dragons were the creation of Morgoth, Sauron’s master... so Smaug really should show up as a dark force in the spirit realm.
Also, on the use of the term “high eleven”, Thranduil and his people are not high elves. That term is usually used on Tolkien’s lore about the Noldor, who travelled to the lands of Aman after the awakening and some of whom returned to Middle Earth to wage war on Morgoth for stealing the Silmarils, not those who stayed in Middle Earth. So Galadriel, being of the Noldor who returned to Middle Earth, is a high elf. Thranduil, being a Silvan elf is not.
And I think you got it spot on about the battle and how well the Elves and Dwarves fought together. But in a sense, the battle faces off quality (dwarves and elves) over quantity (orbs who breed like rabbits). So it’s realistic within the world that they face waves after waves of orcs.
But I don’t agree on Sauron not being devious. He manipulated both Saruman and Denethor, with the former joining him outright and the latter descending into despair and madness (had it not been for Gandalf’s presence at Minas Tirith, the city would have fallen without a leader long before Aragorn arrived). Hell, he manipulated Celebrimbor, the grandson of Fëanor who forged the silmarils and the master smith of his era among the elves on Middle Earth, to forge the rings of power, only to betray him by forging the one ring. And he manipulated the Númenoreans to turn against the Valar causing their downfall.
Sauron was a master of manipulation. But he was also prone to overplay his hand when he thought his position was unassailable. When he first rose against Númenor, he was soundly thrashed. When he killed Celebrimbor after he refused to hand over the three rings he created for the elves, he prompted the alliance of Elendil and Gil-Galad who defeated him at the cost of their own lives. In his lust for power, the creation of the one ring also created the means to destroy him. In the return of the king, he would have crushed the ragtag army of men and elves pitted against him, but he did not even for a moment consider someone would seek to destroy the ring rather than claim its power. At Erebor the death of Smaug forced his hand, but he likely thought Azogs armies would overwhelm the armies of the elves, men and dwarves. And they likely would have, had it not been for the final army to arrive and Thorin taking out Azog from providing leadership to the Orcs.
I also thought Azog’s obsession with Thorin was made clear in the first movie - at the battle at the gates of Moria where Azog first slew Thorin’s grandfather, Thorin defeated Azog’s army after chopping his hand off. And the desire for revenge had been gnawing at Azog for the decades since then.
I may be wrong but I think Thranduil is a Sindar, not a Sylvan elf. The Sindarin didn't get the grace of the valars - like Galadriel did - but they were touched by it.
Excellent
good day so far. more great content
Thank you for the effort. Love your channel! ;)
Dragon sickness is like the Orange light of Avarice.
You asked where the other armies came from, meaning you seemed to think it a bit plot convenient that all these races had all these hitherfore unknown armies laying around just in time for the climax. The part of me that really likes these prequels saw it this way: The fact that everybody whipped out an army so fast shows us the balance of power that is maintained on Middle Earth in a Post Sauron world. Everyone has an army, and they can just be whipped out a moments notice and start horrific wars. In a way it's their version of the nuclear deterrent. So as a prequel to LOTR the point of Battle of the Five Armies is to show how truly fragile the balance of power and the peace of Middle Earth due to the existence of these huge armies. More so it's to show us that the balance of power and the peace are so fragile that one small thing, such as a rag tag group of dwarves on a quest could threaten to plunge the whole world into war. So if you look at it as an allegory for nuclear deterrent it makes this movie thematically important. (p.s. the part of me that didn't like this movie, found it totally contrived that five armies just snuck up outta no where in time for the climactic climax).
it would make sense the free people would keep armies around since there are still Harad, Rhun and orcs and goblins of the mountains around still and plus Sauron could return again like he did.
the fifth army is actually the wargs in the book.
No matter how much the trilogy actually disgusts me, I can't help loving your ruminations.
Have you ever played the mistery dungeon games?
Regarding the Orc army; I'm not just curious as to where they came from, but also how they're so heavily armed, armored & so disciplined.
Also, why do they have no being in sunlight.
I do not understand your last sentence.
My only possible issue with your spirit realm theory, and maybe I missed something, but aren't the ring wraiths glowing white despite them being vessels for saurons will? They're basically evil incarnate.
nah Gandalf the white is the most powerful ring wielder as he stated in the book he himself said only if brought before the dark lord himself in chains would you be in front of someone greater than myself.
to be honest sauron did try deception before and it resulted in numernoir sinking and him losing his fair form for ever, so i guess maybe he decided deception is not worth it.
The Witch king should not be able to beat Gandalf never liked that scene in return of the king preferred the book confrontation between the two.
Reverse suspense we know the character is going to get out of it but the suspense can come from how do they get out of it
Cool video.
For me, the Tauriel/Kili romance was killed by the sequence where they keep taking turns saving each other from mortal peril. By about 2/3 of the way through, I was muttering "one of you die already!" which is clearly not the best mindset for rooting for a romance to work out...
For me, the battles in this movie (and to a lesser extent earlier movies in the series) exemplify what happens in games like D&D when you get to higher levels - Thorin and his companions clearly had at least half a dozen levels on most of the other participants in the battle, so mowed through them like a high-level character through level 0 soldiers... It's a pretty good illustration of why the traditional power-ramp with level is broken from a simulationist perspective - it makes experienced characters too much better than the fodder...
Sauron vs Sidious. Palpatine would've let them kill one another and kill the team that remained. Sauron there in one place so ill just cursh them now.
Great movie.
lorerunner started crying... GG lotr GG.
Good talk, but I need footage to pay attention. "Guy in room" gets boring. See Mauler or Super Eyepatch Wolf if you wanna make this a career
Damn man, you were waaay to lenient with this movie. There were dozens of faults with this movie that weren't even kind of mentioned. You kinda let everyone elses hate for this movie push you way to far the other way. I mean, there were some amazing scenes in this movie. But there were so many facepalming scenes too.
Other then that, very good rumination series.
Where these orc armies comes from? Trust me, you do not want to know all the filthy details of orc procreating. Seems outside fighting, that is all they do in their free time.
One of the most boring films I have ever bothered to watch in theater (especially in the end)
they. are. bad. these, me2 and oblivion. period. :)
ps: oh, and star wars ofcourse, especially force awakens.
Did you just say ME2? I'd understand ME3, but ME2 was god tier.