@@joachimwalle3760 the magical attacks skewed the match in the same way the bloodthirster’s bonus versus large would have if not for the magical attacks of the terra-cotta. If both the magic attacks of the sentinel and the bonus versus large of the bloodthirster were removed then we’d have a ball game
Their attack animations are drawn out, so while it has a similar attack interval as most monsters(4), the actual number of attacks per minute is lower. They hit hard though(with a very high Melee Attack value), and they have a massive health pool. The Terracotta Sentinel is less flexible compared to many other "big monsters" though. Fairly slow and no magic, no ranged attacks or flying capabilities. It is a very tall model, so fairly easy to hit with ranged attacks.
@@MrStoltverd nahh, you gotta remember that you gotta look at a faction holistically, if you only look at the big units you forget other faction have bonuses and benefits in other aspect where Cathay might not
@@MrStoltverd first of all a definition for the ignorant among us "holisitc - in a way that is characterized by the belief that the parts of something are intimately interconnected and explicable only by reference to the whole." Tl;dr Look at the big picture Different races don't need to be carbon copies of each other to be balanced. So comparing two units and saying that one is cost ineffective and should be buffed is dumb. Orcs ranged units suck ass but orcs aren't a ranged faction so they don't need to be buffed even if they lose to a similar priced archer unit. Asymmetrical armies are good, making everything equal is bleh
What bugs? There's the one with the flying blue guy where once knocked back the attacker loses targeting - that's probably due to the knockback being considered an in-the-air event, and with the thing now airborne, the attacker naturally loses targeting on it. Probably not tough to solve, but also, *maybe intentional* given the thing is very airborne. What else?
@@johnnypopstar No the flying animationn wasnt just a visual bug. Them turning around, the bear, and the broken charge is THREE bugs, are you incapable of counting or something? Thats two comments were youre seemingly incapable of adding numbers together.
@@johnnypopstar except they aren’t just visual because they have an effect on the gameplay. The infinite headbutt means your bloodthirster isn’t doing its job when it’s supposed to, and in a campaign or multiplayer setting probably getting shot by ranged units the whole time, and the lord of change’s turn around bug means that their enemy is giving them a free hit which ignores melee defense because they’re turned around, when you would generally be using that knockdown time to get in a couple free hits on them instead. When the visual animation is tied into the gameplay (animation needs to play for damage to be dealt, etc) it’s an issue
I think its kinda cool how this construct of clay that was not meant to have emotions prevails against daemonic creatures that feed off emotions and ideas.
Id love to see Warhammer devs actually fix/work on single entity targeting, its really annoying that a giant moving statue or giant bear gets stuck by a couple horses and freaks out when trying to find pathing, just to be attacked in the back 20-30 times before they've even made a step. Also Slaneesh' chariots needs to despawn after they die they can trap units with their chariot skeleton.
@@indigo7898 It'd be pretty easy to climb over them though. A giant creature would just step over, and infantry would just easilly walk around or clamber over it, not getting struck trying to walk through it
@@Canadian_Zac well, that does suck :P thought just in general the physic that chariots still get in the way by lying around if units cant get out because ai is too stupid to manouver around it, well that sucks c:
@@indigo7898 Even when you manually tell them to move in the right direction, large units tend to bounce around stuck for a little before getting out Haven't had any monster get stuck permanently in them, but it wouldn't surprise me if its possible
Why should they be free? Is there anything in the lore stating greater daemons that aren't exalted can use their magic for free while the exalted ones must use winds of magic?
@@G1ingy There isnt anything that doesnt and gameplay>lore. The entire winds of magic system is a game mechanic anyway, not lore. Spells without cost decreases are garbage compared to an actual dedicated spellcaster.
@@G1ingy Because they are much viable that way when you already use a lord with magic and heroes? I never use their spells because they only have base variants and my lords and heroes are just better caster.
@@G1ingy because every other unit that has bound spells has a limited use that cost no winds. The fact the GD and the war compass use winds makes them less viable as a unit choice since its taking limited magic that could be better used by an actual spellcaster lord or hero. Bound spells having charges and not using winds is also how it worked on tabletop.
Keep in mind a decent amount of power for the bloodthirster is wrapped up in its ability to fly and its speed. Contrast with the sentinel which is slow and grounded.
While still cool to see such a monster mash, I miss the synced animations from TWW2. Nothing like a Stardrake picking up a Stegadon and yeeting it, or Mazdamundi lifting a War Hydra with his mind and wringing it like a wet cloth.
I like that it uses winds of magic. Why should units have a few casts of free spells? What's the lore justifying that? They're using the exact same spells as lords/heroes therefore they should follow the same rules.
That makes me think that the soulgrinder of slaanesh should perform better than the keeper of slaanesh in this too, since it also has a bonus vs large. But I am guess he's planning to do a "Soul grinder Competition".
@@TheNightkunai That's what baffles me about some of the unit choices. I would have thought the Grinders for Tzeentch and Slaanesh would have been way stronger than their greater daemons at the very least.
I actually did my own testing on this before but it was Sentinals against scarbrand because I wanted to know how many it would take to kill him. Then a single Sentinel killed him and I was like huh thats slightly sus.
@@андрейкопылов-л6ъ It is in 40k where it originated from and belongs really. Warhammer Fantasy wasn't that grimdark for the most part (except for things like 6th edition Brettonia, I think)
@@derfliegendetempler This was before the patches, he seems stronger now but haven't tested since the patches came out. Also I did the test in custom so that might be part of it as well
I know it is a bit strange to ask but why not test the giant for the ogres? It could be better than the stone horn in a straight duel. Also I would love to see the lord verisons duke it out. Having them use BOB for KOS or the mortis engine effect might be huge for them comparatively.
@@AlexanderTheGoodEnough they suck overall because they are slow arrow catchers, but neither of those issues matter in this competition. The giant can do only one thing and it is to take a single entity duel.
@@AlexanderTheGoodEnough They problem with giants is speed and missile which neither of which is a factor here. Unless you mean the greater daemon lords... Which if you think they are bad is just factually incorrect. I mean the worst one performance wise is probably GUO but against melee factions like khorne its a good pick.
I just tested it and the giants beat the stonehorns comfortably! They have more health, are nearly unbreakable and they've got better stats across the board.
So I went and did the math. When you account for both their higher MA and higher weapon damage giants will deal roughly 56% more damage over the course of a single entity duel. Also the giants higher health pool and slightly higher MD will mean more in these fights than the Stonehorns extra armor.
Doing some quick review of the Bloodthirster and Terracotta Sentinel's Stats, I can see one reason why the Bloodthirster might've struggled. The Terracotta bois have a noticably lower melee defence, the Bloodthisters base melee attack makes the hit chances already very high, their bonus vs large might not be making as much difference as it did against other monsters with higher defence. Which is where the huge health pools and armour of the Terracottas made the difference, they're more able totank the damage rather than deflecting with melee defence.
I was honestly surprise by the results and now we have the best of Infantry, Cavalry, Single Large Monster in TWW3 the only we need results on is Missile Infantry and Monster Infantry
there's not much point testing missile infantry since there's only one faction that have dedicated missile infantry, as Kislev and Tzeentch are all hybrid melee/ range units so are less effective at both than dedicated range from Cathay's Celestial XBows or Crane Gunners. Only unit that might be a challenge is the Exalted Pink Horrors
Interesting though because these videos don't really reflect gameplay at all haha... stonehorn got last place but is arguably the best one when fighting an actual field battle.
@@CrazyMegaOmega Yep, Stonehorns are pretty obscene when it comes to doing anything but winning these out-of-context monster duels. They have incredible charge animations with long range, ridiculous charge speed (120!), some of the highest mass in the game, best-in-class survivability against missiles (which is the real thing that's going to kill your monster most of the time), their more offensively-geared statline is better suited to Collision Attacks than most other monsters with that mechanic (e.g. Stegadons, War Sphinxes, Mammoths)... and the cherry on top is that Ogres can fuel them with excellent single target healing. The Terracotta is the exact opposite; incredible in matched combat monster duels where their terrible animations don't matter, pathetically low-impact in a real battle where the enemy just... fucking ignores them.
I really didn't expect the LoC to do so well against the Keepers, even if the Keepers have low armour i thought they would deal much more damage (I haven't played the game, just seen stats and gameplay)
Keepers, just like most Slaanesh units depend a lot on their "devastative flanker" trait, which gives them much higher damage output when they attack ennemies in the sides or the back. They're not in their element in a 1v1 straight fight
@@RoulicisThe that makes a lot of sense with their light armour, armour piercing, and fast mobility but i wish the Keepers would be more duelist-esq and be a bit more capable of standing their ground or grinding single targets. Also, the fact a Keeper has like 5 armour is unreal, skin thinner than basic armour of other factions
Yeah, there's no universe where a LoC should even be able to have a "close fight" with a Keeper in melee. LoCs strength should be magic at range. This just shows how mediocre Keepers are rn.
The Keeper of Secrets is really a cavalry unit in spirit. It hates sustained combat, and really wants to be exclusively rear charging enemies that are already tied up that won't fight back, enemies doused in debuffs, or dealing the last burst of damage to wipe out a unit. They're Super Slaanesh units. If you don't extensively micro them, they just die.
I wasn't at all fussed about playing as Cathay, but seeing the animation of these Sentinels has convinced me to take them for a spin. They look so awesome in motion.
Yes however that would be unfair for the test. Like her said these tests are for fun as in realistic battle conditions these tests would either never happen or ddo not make use of the monsters full potential. If memory servs he says this in the beggining of each of these videos.
Think one of the reasons this turns out this way is because of demonic instability, meaning once they start loosing, they will simply keep loosing and loose hit points along with it. The Sentinel doesn't have that issue, it just stands its ground until the last bit of HP has been beaten out of it. I am however in agreement that the Sentinel is over performing considering the faction it belongs to (and the mechanics there) and the cost... so yeah, either they need a bit of down-tuning or have their price reflect how good they are.
Seeing the huge differences in health left in most of the fights, I wonder if those are just luck combination of highground, dice rolls and unfortunate stupid behaviour of units, or if unproperly made animations with constant stunlocking are also the case. If they are, they need to begone.
I know that's a point in the Terracotta Sentinel's favor. For whatever reason, it has very difficult to interrupt animations. Immune to leadership, immune to bad luck, the things are the definition of reliable. Only the Lord of Change glitches hard enough to bother them, and that's such a strong glitch, you may as well call it a feature.
With the Greater Demon spells now beind bound instead of being dependant of winds of magic, they are considerable more powerfull. Between that and other changes in the last patch (as well as how buggy some duels were) a rematch should really be done.
Thank for the testing video. Considering Cathay can build Great Bastion, building a sentinel should be just daily routines for them. Maybe waiting for few update and do it again, toooooo muuuuch attacking animation issue atm.
The Slaanesh Soul Grinder will probably perform better than the Keeper of Secrets due to their higher armor and anti-large bonus. The Bloodthirster is much faster than the Sentinel and it can fly. In an actual battle, they can be used in different ways like hunting down lords and rear charging enemies.
Earlier vs videos had lengthy preludes where Zerkovich explained that these duels are only half serious and disregard many factors and that some/many contestants have different roles but I assume he got tired of repeating himself in each of these videos.
to be fair terra cotta do have much much higher hp than bloodthirsters so them being anti large makes little difference against terra cotta. terra cotta also have higher mass at 6500 meaning they get stunned less
The sentinel has more health than the Great Unclean One and otherwise comparable combat stats to the greater daemons, while being unbreakable. Biggest trade off is MD but when only the last hit point matters that's not much of a sacrifice given the health pool. It's victory is inevitable from the stats alone, however it seems to have been designed around the idea of dueling other SEM's given that in terms of utility it brings nothing to the table. Kind of like a Giant (who would likely outperform the stonehorn here). It is probably intended to be overstated for the cost though it does feel like something of an outlier. Honestly the fact that the Bloodthirster (which is probably a trade overpriced for the stats) was able to beat one in a duel is really a testament to how strong of a duelist that unit is. Edit: With more experience the real issue is only the Sentinel was good. Greater Daemon WS values are way to low after the move to Ultra.
You make a very good point. I agree that a Giant would probably have been performing very well in this matchup, for its price at least. Both the Giant and Terracotta Sentinel lacks utility/mobility, which is part of the gold cost for the other units. Another issue for the Terracotta Sentinel, is that Cathay has very strong missile units, but if the Terracotta engages the enemy, they will end up hitting it a lot, due to it's massive size(sometimes dealing a thousand damage to it, if you are really unlucky). I guess that is also why it is Unbreakable, so you do not need to worry to much about that. Still, it will end up soaking a lot of ranged fire(both enemy and your own).
The Terracotta Sentinel also sucks pretty hard against single target small entities. It gets wrecked by infantry Lords and Heroes, while, say, the Bloodthirster is way, way better at that. I can't wait for Infantry Lords like Oldbloods from TWW2 to get into these.
Like it that you finally decided units should be able to use their bound abilities at least once in these contests. . Not really surprising the caster and grounder flanker did so poorly in this contest. . Kind of surprised the Terracotta Sentinel did this well even without its harmony bonus.
Zerkovich: *mentions Floyd Mayweather like defense about dodging everything* also Zerkovich: *notices it's happening to another bear* me: Oh so just like Floyd, they're exploiting the system to their advantage despite clearly losing then? XD Great Video as always. Can't wait to see your Mortal Empires gameplay.... or Mortal Empires just getting released. Anybody have any updates on that?
the 1HP thing has to do with how the damage calculation is done. it is designed for multiple person units, not single monsters. the attack value determines if there is a hit then each damage point is compared to HP, removing excess damage keeping penetration damage over non-penetration damage. then the damage to the HP is reduced based on defenses. this means that defenses are more effective with low HP, and non-penetrating damage is less effective on low HP units. so when the HP gets down to really low numbers a unit will last longer. the attack values are also a bit wonky, but this tends to be paired to figure count so it makes more sense.
KoS without their charge and devastating flanker is pointless. But even if they are biased on several points, your "who's the best" videos are always enlightening and fun. Thanks.
Same problem with the infantry and cavalry comparison. They are good videos but each time some units have their faction bonus working or can using some range attack. But always Slaanesh units never have their rear attack bonus. For a fair fight one or two enemy units should start the fight with their back facing Slaanesh and we can see if that make a difference.
Keep in mind, Bloodthristers are flying and the other great demons are also spellcasters. With the new patch and the fact spells will be bound spells and not costing magic maybe this list will change.
the sentinel has much higher hp than either of them as well as magic attacks to ignore their phys resistance and it has higher mass not sure why anyone would expect it to lose against any single entity
Definitely did bet on Bloodthirster winning this. So surprised by that result. The amount of glitches in animations and such is what really shocked me though. Hope CA addresses stuff like this before long.
Let me add one more about sentinels. There is a great tech that gives MASSIVE replenishment buff to it. I had them recently at insane rate even in chaos lands and plague
1:29 is Guard Mode turned off? My Terracotta Sentinels behaved similarly before I turned off the default Guard Mode for units. I also just want to say that I absolutely love these comparisons, and that you do not make it 1 unit vs 1 unit, but multiple 1v1s at the same time. Significantly reduces the likelihood of a fluke portraying a unit wrongly.
CA should get an award for their uncanny ability to find/make new and more bugs and glitches with each release, in a game series they've been making for their entire life. Pot boys are a nonliving golem made of pots but are effected by poison?
@@00spinz35 Once again.... I didn't say that...... Is every commenter going to be making up stuff I didn't say? I am completely allowed to find something "odd", thank you very much.
Good video as always, though I feel like it’s more of a “which monster is the best monster sniper/duelist” as I’m sure the LoC and Stonehorn could be pretty cranked when paired with their respective army comps
Zerkovich, I love you videos. for these "whose the best" I'd like to ask if you could start adding how these monster work against different units as well? efficacy changes obviously with different scenarios.
I'm predicting the terracotta sentinel does really well because she's kinda built to slay demons. The bloodthirster will obviously come in really high. The changer of ways will probably do poorly assuming you're sending him into melee. Though theoretically he'd do really well just casting spells while flying. The elemental bear will be weak I'm not sure about the great unclean one, stonehorn, and the keeper of secrets. Edit: I underestimated the bear. I thought the keeper would do waaay better. In particular I assumed he'd absolutely devastate the changer. I assumed the stonehorn would do better since it's so damn good in campaign. I'm super surprised that the great unclean one did so well against the bloodthirster. I'm also super mega surprised that the sentinel won. I assumed he'd do great but would come in lacking against the bloodthirster. But those magical attacks and being unbreakable is just too damn good. I actually thought the bloodthirster would win this easily. Color me surprised. I wonder how they all stack up against the Karibdryss, dragon ogre shaggoth, and dread saurian.
I think the magical attacks are what really did it. Negating the daemons biggest advantage of a physical resist is so huge. It's an extra 15% damage that they shouldn't have taken.
I wonder if the others have a better performance vs things like infantry and simply have different use cases, perhaps a competition surveying it's performance in different scenarios rather than a melee is in order
One of the big weaknesses of the KoS is their speed is not taken advantage of here. It is unsurprising to me that the greater demons that do well are the bloodthirster and the GUO, as both fo well in this kind of engagement.
First, great video as always. Second, you're absolutely right I did expect the Bloodthirster to win, well played. And third, omg this whole video was hilarious. I never expect to laugh during Zerkovich videos, they occupy this "educational" space in my mind, so I'm always taken aback by how funny you are with editing and commentary. I was laughing obnoxiously loudly at least 3 times during this video, which is rare these days. So thanks for the education and the entertainment, Matt!
i think bloodthristers have 9k or so hp compared to terra cotta 14k not sure why people ever expect bloodthirsters to win against a higher hp,higher mass and magic damage singe entity
Honestly thought the Bloodthirster would win, but I did think either the Terracotta Sentinels and the Great Unclean Ones would give them a good run for their money.
What a total underdog story! Big guy standing up for his friends ends up smacking all the bullies around. And without his friends cheering him on (harmony). But really, the sentinel should need harmony to stand up to greater daemons, that it wins without it while being cheaper is kinda messed up. Should be slower with lower MD, imo.
Its kind of funny because the Terracotta says its moves and attacks slow but it really seems to get those attacks out a lot faster than the rest of them. In the BT and GUO fights vs them you can really see it where the daemons start winding up attacks and then get smacked before attacking repeatedly.
To be fair, isn't the whole point of Grand Cathay that they're the wall that defends Order from Chaos? Seeing the Terracotta sentinel beating the Chaos monsters is pretty on brand.
One thing you shouldt forget Zerk, we Slaaneshi don't fight to win....we fight for pleasure And receiving is just as much of an gift as dishing out pain. Even if you beat us in battle, the true winners will always be us, because we will gladly accept the beating you will provide for us :3
The problem the keeper of secrets has is slower animations VS khorne and no fly so it doesn’t get its massive charge bonus and it’s a spellcaster so 1v1 a keeper with full winds of magic does pretty well into these target but under those circumstances the LOC just wins against everything but maybe the bloodthirster becouse the lore of tzeentch hurts and flying means most of them can’t touch it
Only thing I think you got wrong is the possible nerf or increase in cost of the Terracotta Sentinel. Grand Cathay needs buffs as they are the least balanced army for versus at the moment and from start. If anything thing they need a meager buff and to be dropped to 1500. A cheap large boss plus the other ranged units is what will finally balance Cathay.
Well the dirt Gundam is the best! Who would have thought that a massive block of terracota made by a god-empero...I mean a dragon emperor that made a mile tall wall that stop chaos would lose?
I liked the video the moment you announced that the Terracotta Sentinels won the event. I honestly think that they're the coolest large unit in the whole total war warhammer trilogy, especially compared to the generic giants who look like oversized drunkards with loincloths and clubs while the Sentinels look both awesome and intimidating regardless of size. Terracotta Sentinels for the win!
Honestly the Lord of Change convincing their enemy to walk away every time they get knocked down is kinda on brand.
they change their intentions
Its lore accurate tbh
"This guy is literally changing my fate. He can will me to die. Maybe I just... shouldn't."
"Its not a bug, its a feature" lmao
I changed the number of likes to this post
It does kinda make sense given how the Terracotta Sentinels were explicitly made to clap daemons
We need a rematch that includes all the non-daemonic monsters as well - magic attacks skewed this one big time.
@@joachimwalle3760 the magical attacks skewed the match in the same way the bloodthirster’s bonus versus large would have if not for the magical attacks of the terra-cotta. If both the magic attacks of the sentinel and the bonus versus large of the bloodthirster were removed then we’d have a ball game
Terracotta Sentinels attack animation seems making them realy good they tend to attack fast and often interrupt foes
Yeah, I think that's key.
I once read somewhere that the Terracotta Sentinel has extra slow attack speed compared to other Monsters
Their attack animation is also damaging behind them, but they don't attack as frequently as other monsters.
@@DontKnow-hr5my the TS is has the "cumbersome" negative tag in their unit card which claims to slow their maneuverability as well as their attacks
Their attack animations are drawn out, so while it has a similar attack interval as most monsters(4), the actual number of attacks per minute is lower. They hit hard though(with a very high Melee Attack value), and they have a massive health pool.
The Terracotta Sentinel is less flexible compared to many other "big monsters" though. Fairly slow and no magic, no ranged attacks or flying capabilities. It is a very tall model, so fairly easy to hit with ranged attacks.
Kinda makes sense that the Bloodthirster loses to the sentinel, since it has no blood to spill
I'm glad we have it demonstrated so well, but it's really sad that this became a showcase for bugs more than anything else :(
Seems this games is going to need a whole year AFTER IE lands...
@@MrStoltverd nahh, you gotta remember that you gotta look at a faction holistically, if you only look at the big units you forget other faction have bonuses and benefits in other aspect where Cathay might not
A lot of these things are meant to fight infantry
@@puppy3908 what are you talking about?
@@MrStoltverd first of all a definition for the ignorant among us "holisitc - in a way that is characterized by the belief that the parts of something are intimately interconnected and explicable only by reference to the whole."
Tl;dr Look at the big picture
Different races don't need to be carbon copies of each other to be balanced.
So comparing two units and saying that one is cost ineffective and should be buffed is dumb. Orcs ranged units suck ass but orcs aren't a ranged faction so they don't need to be buffed even if they lose to a similar priced archer unit.
Asymmetrical armies are good, making everything equal is bleh
The sheer ratio of bugs in this short, damn near laboratory conditions series of fights is mind blowing.
What bugs? There's the one with the flying blue guy where once knocked back the attacker loses targeting - that's probably due to the knockback being considered an in-the-air event, and with the thing now airborne, the attacker naturally loses targeting on it. Probably not tough to solve, but also, *maybe intentional* given the thing is very airborne.
What else?
@@johnnypopstar Did you even watch the video? Khorne never ending flying chrage, Bear with 1hp and not dying, floating sentinel...
@@123MRJAMIE ah yeah, the bear. So that's like 1 bug that matters, and some visual glitches that don't.
@@johnnypopstar No the flying animationn wasnt just a visual bug. Them turning around, the bear, and the broken charge is THREE bugs, are you incapable of counting or something? Thats two comments were youre seemingly incapable of adding numbers together.
@@johnnypopstar except they aren’t just visual because they have an effect on the gameplay. The infinite headbutt means your bloodthirster isn’t doing its job when it’s supposed to, and in a campaign or multiplayer setting probably getting shot by ranged units the whole time, and the lord of change’s turn around bug means that their enemy is giving them a free hit which ignores melee defense because they’re turned around, when you would generally be using that knockdown time to get in a couple free hits on them instead. When the visual animation is tied into the gameplay (animation needs to play for damage to be dealt, etc) it’s an issue
i'd like to see this after the next patch as well. to see if the single entity changes will help
Yeah, I'd call it a case of bad timing
I think its kinda cool how this construct of clay that was not meant to have emotions prevails against daemonic creatures that feed off emotions and ideas.
Id love to see Warhammer devs actually fix/work on single entity targeting, its really annoying that a giant moving statue or giant bear gets stuck by a couple horses and freaks out when trying to find pathing, just to be attacked in the back 20-30 times before they've even made a step. Also Slaneesh' chariots needs to despawn after they die they can trap units with their chariot skeleton.
isnt it neat that chariots do that
like, realistic? pretty sure chariots are not ghosts :o
@@indigo7898 It'd be pretty easy to climb over them though.
A giant creature would just step over, and infantry would just easilly walk around or clamber over it, not getting struck trying to walk through it
@@Canadian_Zac well, that does suck :P
thought just in general the physic that chariots still get in the way by lying around
if units cant get out because ai is too stupid to manouver around it, well that sucks c:
@@indigo7898 Even when you manually tell them to move in the right direction, large units tend to bounce around stuck for a little before getting out
Haven't had any monster get stuck permanently in them, but it wouldn't surprise me if its possible
@@indigo7898 I'm they're warp in nature, so should disappear.
The bound spells of the greater demons need to be free of mana but with only 2 uses or something.
Yeah, and the technology tree for the Daemons should give extra charges along with new spells.
Why should they be free? Is there anything in the lore stating greater daemons that aren't exalted can use their magic for free while the exalted ones must use winds of magic?
@@G1ingy There isnt anything that doesnt and gameplay>lore. The entire winds of magic system is a game mechanic anyway, not lore. Spells without cost decreases are garbage compared to an actual dedicated spellcaster.
@@G1ingy Because they are much viable that way when you already use a lord with magic and heroes? I never use their spells because they only have base variants and my lords and heroes are just better caster.
@@G1ingy because every other unit that has bound spells has a limited use that cost no winds. The fact the GD and the war compass use winds makes them less viable as a unit choice since its taking limited magic that could be better used by an actual spellcaster lord or hero.
Bound spells having charges and not using winds is also how it worked on tabletop.
Keep in mind a decent amount of power for the bloodthirster is wrapped up in its ability to fly and its speed. Contrast with the sentinel which is slow and grounded.
While still cool to see such a monster mash, I miss the synced animations from TWW2. Nothing like a Stardrake picking up a Stegadon and yeeting it, or Mazdamundi lifting a War Hydra with his mind and wringing it like a wet cloth.
I hate that the spells use winds they should be bound like zoats. All the soul grinders are better
There's a mod "Greater Daemons + War Compass bound spells," that gives them one charge free (still can cast them normally after use.
I like that it uses winds of magic. Why should units have a few casts of free spells? What's the lore justifying that? They're using the exact same spells as lords/heroes therefore they should follow the same rules.
That makes me think that the soulgrinder of slaanesh should perform better than the keeper of slaanesh in this too, since it also has a bonus vs large.
But I am guess he's planning to do a "Soul grinder Competition".
@@TheNightkunai That's what baffles me about some of the unit choices. I would have thought the Grinders for Tzeentch and Slaanesh would have been way stronger than their greater daemons at the very least.
They need to increase winds to 150. 100 is so shit
I actually did my own testing on this before but it was Sentinals against scarbrand because I wanted to know how many it would take to kill him. Then a single Sentinel killed him and I was like huh thats slightly sus.
That is really sus.
Why is kathay so high fantasy, where did the famous grimdark of the warhammer go?!
@@андрейкопылов-л6ъ It is in 40k where it originated from and belongs really. Warhammer Fantasy wasn't that grimdark for the most part (except for things like 6th edition Brettonia, I think)
What sort of Skarbrand are you using? Because in the campaign, mine decimates any entity in a duel.
@@derfliegendetempler This was before the patches, he seems stronger now but haven't tested since the patches came out. Also I did the test in custom so that might be part of it as well
@@андрейкопылов-л6ъ all of warhammer fantasy is high fantasy, except chaos and maybe dark elves.
I know it is a bit strange to ask but why not test the giant for the ogres? It could be better than the stone horn in a straight duel. Also I would love to see the lord verisons duke it out. Having them use BOB for KOS or the mortis engine effect might be huge for them comparatively.
Those things just plain suck.
@@AlexanderTheGoodEnough they suck overall because they are slow arrow catchers, but neither of those issues matter in this competition. The giant can do only one thing and it is to take a single entity duel.
@@AlexanderTheGoodEnough They problem with giants is speed and missile which neither of which is a factor here. Unless you mean the greater daemon lords... Which if you think they are bad is just factually incorrect. I mean the worst one performance wise is probably GUO but against melee factions like khorne its a good pick.
I just tested it and the giants beat the stonehorns comfortably! They have more health, are nearly unbreakable and they've got better stats across the board.
So I went and did the math. When you account for both their higher MA and higher weapon damage giants will deal roughly 56% more damage over the course of a single entity duel. Also the giants higher health pool and slightly higher MD will mean more in these fights than the Stonehorns extra armor.
Doing some quick review of the Bloodthirster and Terracotta Sentinel's Stats, I can see one reason why the Bloodthirster might've struggled.
The Terracotta bois have a noticably lower melee defence, the Bloodthisters base melee attack makes the hit chances already very high, their bonus vs large might not be making as much difference as it did against other monsters with higher defence. Which is where the huge health pools and armour of the Terracottas made the difference, they're more able totank the damage rather than deflecting with melee defence.
I was honestly surprise by the results and now we have the best of Infantry, Cavalry, Single Large Monster in TWW3 the only we need results on is Missile Infantry and Monster Infantry
there's not much point testing missile infantry since there's only one faction that have dedicated missile infantry, as Kislev and Tzeentch are all hybrid melee/ range units so are less effective at both than dedicated range from Cathay's Celestial XBows or Crane Gunners. Only unit that might be a challenge is the Exalted Pink Horrors
Interesting though because these videos don't really reflect gameplay at all haha... stonehorn got last place but is arguably the best one when fighting an actual field battle.
@@CrazyMegaOmega Yep, Stonehorns are pretty obscene when it comes to doing anything but winning these out-of-context monster duels. They have incredible charge animations with long range, ridiculous charge speed (120!), some of the highest mass in the game, best-in-class survivability against missiles (which is the real thing that's going to kill your monster most of the time), their more offensively-geared statline is better suited to Collision Attacks than most other monsters with that mechanic (e.g. Stegadons, War Sphinxes, Mammoths)... and the cherry on top is that Ogres can fuel them with excellent single target healing.
The Terracotta is the exact opposite; incredible in matched combat monster duels where their terrible animations don't matter, pathetically low-impact in a real battle where the enemy just... fucking ignores them.
I really didn't expect the LoC to do so well against the Keepers, even if the Keepers have low armour i thought they would deal much more damage
(I haven't played the game, just seen stats and gameplay)
Keepers, just like most Slaanesh units depend a lot on their "devastative flanker" trait, which gives them much higher damage output when they attack ennemies in the sides or the back.
They're not in their element in a 1v1 straight fight
@@RoulicisThe that makes a lot of sense with their light armour, armour piercing, and fast mobility but i wish the Keepers would be more duelist-esq and be a bit more capable of standing their ground or grinding single targets. Also, the fact a Keeper has like 5 armour is unreal, skin thinner than basic armour of other factions
Keeper's just don't have that great combat of stats for the cost, even when you factor in devastating flanker.
Too much glass not enough cannon.
Yeah, there's no universe where a LoC should even be able to have a "close fight" with a Keeper in melee. LoCs strength should be magic at range. This just shows how mediocre Keepers are rn.
The Keeper of Secrets is really a cavalry unit in spirit.
It hates sustained combat, and really wants to be exclusively rear charging enemies that are already tied up that won't fight back, enemies doused in debuffs, or dealing the last burst of damage to wipe out a unit.
They're Super Slaanesh units. If you don't extensively micro them, they just die.
I wasn't at all fussed about playing as Cathay, but seeing the animation of these Sentinels has convinced me to take them for a spin. They look so awesome in motion.
The Bloodthirster can fly though, so in the hands of a skilled player it should be reasonably easy to cycle charge
Yes however that would be unfair for the test. Like her said these tests are for fun as in realistic battle conditions these tests would either never happen or ddo not make use of the monsters full potential.
If memory servs he says this in the beggining of each of these videos.
@@zerg-rush5797 Yes, so let's not call for nerfs or buffs purely based on these results
This is a genuinely surprising result, wow. Also, props to you for taking such time to do proper testing, rerunning the close fights and all.
I think an advantage for the sentinel is that it has really fast animations, which causes staggering
I would love to see this done again with all the new races added
Zerk, I really appreciate how much work you put into these.
Think one of the reasons this turns out this way is because of demonic instability, meaning once they start loosing, they will simply keep loosing and loose hit points along with it. The Sentinel doesn't have that issue, it just stands its ground until the last bit of HP has been beaten out of it. I am however in agreement that the Sentinel is over performing considering the faction it belongs to (and the mechanics there) and the cost... so yeah, either they need a bit of down-tuning or have their price reflect how good they are.
Seeing the huge differences in health left in most of the fights, I wonder if those are just luck combination of highground, dice rolls and unfortunate stupid behaviour of units, or if unproperly made animations with constant stunlocking are also the case. If they are, they need to begone.
I know that's a point in the Terracotta Sentinel's favor.
For whatever reason, it has very difficult to interrupt animations.
Immune to leadership, immune to bad luck, the things are the definition of reliable. Only the Lord of Change glitches hard enough to bother them, and that's such a strong glitch, you may as well call it a feature.
@@aprinnyonbreak1290 All according to plan...!
With the Greater Demon spells now beind bound instead of being dependant of winds of magic, they are considerable more powerfull. Between that and other changes in the last patch (as well as how buggy some duels were) a rematch should really be done.
Thank for the testing video. Considering Cathay can build Great Bastion, building a sentinel should be just daily routines for them. Maybe waiting for few update and do it again, toooooo muuuuch attacking animation issue atm.
Stonehorns are absolutely superb. TBH the range attack is only so-so, but they munch through infantry like a pro :)
I don't play this game, but this is the type of content I need, thank you
The Slaanesh Soul Grinder will probably perform better than the Keeper of Secrets due to their higher armor and anti-large bonus.
The Bloodthirster is much faster than the Sentinel and it can fly. In an actual battle, they can be used in different ways like hunting down lords and rear charging enemies.
Earlier vs videos had lengthy preludes where Zerkovich explained that these duels are only half serious and disregard many factors and that some/many contestants have different roles but I assume he got tired of repeating himself in each of these videos.
My prediction would have been bloodthirster -> sentinel and then everyone else in no particular order. Results are definitely kind of surprising.
I haven’t watched yet but I’m guessing Great Unclean One beats everything
to be fair terra cotta do have much much higher hp than bloodthirsters so them being anti large makes little difference against terra cotta. terra cotta also have higher mass at 6500 meaning they get stunned less
@@MrBentalton777 and unbreakable vs demons starting to lose hp to banishment.
@@mmorkinism if both units were unbreakable sentinel would still win
That Flying tax really do be hitting the Bloodthirster hard.
Would like to see how the Arachnarok, Shaggoth and Saurian do against the Teracotta warrior.
The sentinel has more health than the Great Unclean One and otherwise comparable combat stats to the greater daemons, while being unbreakable. Biggest trade off is MD but when only the last hit point matters that's not much of a sacrifice given the health pool.
It's victory is inevitable from the stats alone, however it seems to have been designed around the idea of dueling other SEM's given that in terms of utility it brings nothing to the table. Kind of like a Giant (who would likely outperform the stonehorn here). It is probably intended to be overstated for the cost though it does feel like something of an outlier. Honestly the fact that the Bloodthirster (which is probably a trade overpriced for the stats) was able to beat one in a duel is really a testament to how strong of a duelist that unit is.
Edit: With more experience the real issue is only the Sentinel was good. Greater Daemon WS values are way to low after the move to Ultra.
You make a very good point. I agree that a Giant would probably have been performing very well in this matchup, for its price at least.
Both the Giant and Terracotta Sentinel lacks utility/mobility, which is part of the gold cost for the other units.
Another issue for the Terracotta Sentinel, is that Cathay has very strong missile units, but if the Terracotta engages the enemy, they will end up hitting it a lot, due to it's massive size(sometimes dealing a thousand damage to it, if you are really unlucky). I guess that is also why it is Unbreakable, so you do not need to worry to much about that. Still, it will end up soaking a lot of ranged fire(both enemy and your own).
The Terracotta Sentinel also sucks pretty hard against single target small entities. It gets wrecked by infantry Lords and Heroes, while, say, the Bloodthirster is way, way better at that.
I can't wait for Infantry Lords like Oldbloods from TWW2 to get into these.
Great Unclean One & Bloodthirster are one of my favorites
I saw another one of this kind of monster competition and interestingly giant actually did a great job, beating most of its enemies
Like it that you finally decided units should be able to use their bound abilities at least once in these contests.
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Not really surprising the caster and grounder flanker did so poorly in this contest.
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Kind of surprised the Terracotta Sentinel did this well even without its harmony bonus.
Zerkovich: *mentions Floyd Mayweather like defense about dodging everything*
also Zerkovich: *notices it's happening to another bear*
me: Oh so just like Floyd, they're exploiting the system to their advantage despite clearly losing then? XD
Great Video as always. Can't wait to see your Mortal Empires gameplay.... or Mortal Empires just getting released. Anybody have any updates on that?
Losing targeting is something that happens a lot with a lot of units.
Can we get a 15x the detail Tod Howard meme for Warhammer 3's Early Access build?
the 1HP thing has to do with how the damage calculation is done. it is designed for multiple person units, not single monsters. the attack value determines if there is a hit then each damage point is compared to HP, removing excess damage keeping penetration damage over non-penetration damage. then the damage to the HP is reduced based on defenses. this means that defenses are more effective with low HP, and non-penetrating damage is less effective on low HP units. so when the HP gets down to really low numbers a unit will last longer. the attack values are also a bit wonky, but this tends to be paired to figure count so it makes more sense.
KoS without their charge and devastating flanker is pointless. But even if they are biased on several points, your "who's the best" videos are always enlightening and fun. Thanks.
Same problem with the infantry and cavalry comparison. They are good videos but each time some units have their faction bonus working or can using some range attack. But always Slaanesh units never have their rear attack bonus.
For a fair fight one or two enemy units should start the fight with their back facing Slaanesh and we can see if that make a difference.
The Sentinel was also missing its harmony bonus from Yang, which it would under normal circumstances probably have.
So happy I sat on buying this. Hopefully in a year or so everything will be ironed out.
Keep in mind, Bloodthristers are flying and the other great demons are also spellcasters.
With the new patch and the fact spells will be bound spells and not costing magic maybe this list will change.
Didn't expect the sentinel to win against the keeper of secret, but even the bloodthirster as well? Damn.
the sentinel has much higher hp than either of them as well as magic attacks to ignore their phys resistance and it has higher mass not sure why anyone would expect it to lose against any single entity
Always enjoy these - the overhead view is a nice new element. Very interesting result
Definitely did bet on Bloodthirster winning this. So surprised by that result. The amount of glitches in animations and such is what really shocked me though. Hope CA addresses stuff like this before long.
Dread Saurian vs Terracotta Sentinel soon 😎
6:54 It looked like they were locking horns to see who flinches first. You know, like many horned animals?
Let me add one more about sentinels. There is a great tech that gives MASSIVE replenishment buff to it. I had them recently at insane rate even in chaos lands and plague
1:29 is Guard Mode turned off? My Terracotta Sentinels behaved similarly before I turned off the default Guard Mode for units.
I also just want to say that I absolutely love these comparisons, and that you do not make it 1 unit vs 1 unit, but multiple 1v1s at the same time. Significantly reduces the likelihood of a fluke portraying a unit wrongly.
Took me forever to find out guard mode is on by default
just.. why
I’m assuming he has guard mode off since he’s been doing this for years now
@@indigo7898 useful for Kislev's hybrid units or Cathay's formations... otherwise... not so much imo it should only be default for those two.
The terracotta sentinel is by far the coolest. It’s looks awesome, is super powerful, and has great looking animations! What’s not to love?!?!!
i was cheering that last bear against those goop monsters, what a comeback that would have been!
CA should get an award for their uncanny ability to find/make new and more bugs and glitches with each release, in a game series they've been making for their entire life.
Pot boys are a nonliving golem made of pots but are effected by poison?
That's not a bug. We've been using Life magic on Steam Tanks for years now.
@@OniGanon I didn't say how poison worked was a bug, I just think it's weird. I quite clearly separated the statement from the previous one.
i mean even ghost get tired somehow? at least we have mods for that in WH2
It's a game with giant rape demons fighting dudes riding bears not everything needs to be realistic or logical
@@00spinz35 Once again.... I didn't say that...... Is every commenter going to be making up stuff I didn't say?
I am completely allowed to find something "odd", thank you very much.
Good video as always, though I feel like it’s more of a “which monster is the best monster sniper/duelist” as I’m sure the LoC and Stonehorn could be pretty cranked when paired with their respective army comps
Zerkovich, I love you videos. for these "whose the best" I'd like to ask if you could start adding how these monster work against different units as well? efficacy changes obviously with different scenarios.
I'm predicting the terracotta sentinel does really well because she's kinda built to slay demons.
The bloodthirster will obviously come in really high.
The changer of ways will probably do poorly assuming you're sending him into melee. Though theoretically he'd do really well just casting spells while flying.
The elemental bear will be weak
I'm not sure about the great unclean one, stonehorn, and the keeper of secrets.
Edit:
I underestimated the bear.
I thought the keeper would do waaay better. In particular I assumed he'd absolutely devastate the changer.
I assumed the stonehorn would do better since it's so damn good in campaign.
I'm super surprised that the great unclean one did so well against the bloodthirster.
I'm also super mega surprised that the sentinel won. I assumed he'd do great but would come in lacking against the bloodthirster. But those magical attacks and being unbreakable is just too damn good.
I actually thought the bloodthirster would win this easily. Color me surprised.
I wonder how they all stack up against the Karibdryss, dragon ogre shaggoth, and dread saurian.
The Animations are as important as the stats. The Bloodthirster have big problems with his animation against some other units.
Slaneeshi Soul Grinders probably dumpster them all. Great bug showcase!
HOW has the Terracotta Sentinel no Bonus vs. Large??
I mean, he wields a giant spear! óÒ
I know right?!
Bruh it's already overpowered. 1 Terracotta Sentinel can beat Skarbrand in a fight (if he doesn't stack his weapon strength to 3 k with his axes).
ofc it's cheap, its made of clay, i'll just mold another one, and channel the winds of magic from the Bastion as power source
nice video, I used to do this type of stuff when I was a kid In warcraft, just matching every unit in a 1v1 xD
I think the magical attacks are what really did it.
Negating the daemons biggest advantage of a physical resist is so huge. It's an extra 15% damage that they shouldn't have taken.
"The Keeper of Secrets not taking it lying down, as much as they'd like to, damn Slaanesh" lol
Fookin' hell, I spilled my coffee, I wasn't expecting the guy on a Bloodthirsty Suit!
13:59 this frame is not something i ever thought i would see
Lord of Change is literally that. Changing the way you face.
16:47 Blood thirster number 5 is really gonna have it from the rest of his colleagues.
There's really no excuse for the giant clay golem being better at fighting than the daemon of the fighty god.
The sentinels are thousands of years old, worshipped (sort of), created by a god like being. Why shouldn't they be amazing.
hope that Skreech has a similar attack style as the TSs if they decide to add Vermin Lords later on.
GUO being 3rd is absolutely fluffy as 3 is Nurgle's blessed number.
I love terracotta sentinels so much. Hope they dont get nerfed
During the unclean one vs bloodthirsters it sounded like Korg was narrating for a moment
"Went all slanash and lord of change mating with stones" Haha stuff like that is priceless.
Such a shame the Great unclean one is so bad in campaign at the moment. It gets shot to pieces every time
I wonder if the others have a better performance vs things like infantry and simply have different use cases, perhaps a competition surveying it's performance in different scenarios rather than a melee is in order
One of the big weaknesses of the KoS is their speed is not taken advantage of here. It is unsurprising to me that the greater demons that do well are the bloodthirster and the GUO, as both fo well in this kind of engagement.
First, great video as always.
Second, you're absolutely right I did expect the Bloodthirster to win, well played.
And third, omg this whole video was hilarious. I never expect to laugh during Zerkovich videos, they occupy this "educational" space in my mind, so I'm always taken aback by how funny you are with editing and commentary. I was laughing obnoxiously loudly at least 3 times during this video, which is rare these days. So thanks for the education and the entertainment, Matt!
Is Zerk's name Matt? Mind blowing.
@@mitchelbrown793 It is indeed. You'll never guess his second name tho ;)
i think bloodthristers have 9k or so hp compared to terra cotta 14k not sure why people ever expect bloodthirsters to win against a higher hp,higher mass and magic damage singe entity
@@MrBentalton777 cos they're cool, duh!
@@oranski3299 i think terra cotta are cooler so.....
You should do this again today with all the different monsters available in Immortal Empires
I love this idea and your commentary is so fitting!
The best monster is the beast of Nurgle. Look how adorable and happy they are!
The Regeneration makes them incredibly good. I used them as an early game doomstack and it made the stupid survival battles in the campaign bearable.
I love hearing you describe the battle :)
Honestly thought the Bloodthirster would win, but I did think either the Terracotta Sentinels and the Great Unclean Ones would give them a good run for their money.
What a total underdog story! Big guy standing up for his friends ends up smacking all the bullies around. And without his friends cheering him on (harmony).
But really, the sentinel should need harmony to stand up to greater daemons, that it wins without it while being cheaper is kinda messed up. Should be slower with lower MD, imo.
Its kind of funny because the Terracotta says its moves and attacks slow but it really seems to get those attacks out a lot faster than the rest of them. In the BT and GUO fights vs them you can really see it where the daemons start winding up attacks and then get smacked before attacking repeatedly.
"it went all slanesh and tried to mate with the stonehorn*
~I'm dying~
xD
Can't wait to watch these best of videos when we have all the factions
Already giving to the shredder of lustria.
To be fair, isn't the whole point of Grand Cathay that they're the wall that defends Order from Chaos? Seeing the Terracotta sentinel beating the Chaos monsters is pretty on brand.
This is the one I've been waiting for!
I reckon the Sentinel's melee range has a lot to do with it. Cancels out the Bloodthirsters hits.
One thing you shouldt forget Zerk, we Slaaneshi don't fight to win....we fight for pleasure
And receiving is just as much of an gift as dishing out pain.
Even if you beat us in battle, the true winners will always be us, because we will gladly accept the beating you will provide for us :3
the ol' sick on the shoes tactic XD
bloodthristers keep chopping on unlcean ones' belly is really funny
The problem the keeper of secrets has is slower animations VS khorne and no fly so it doesn’t get its massive charge bonus and it’s a spellcaster so 1v1 a keeper with full winds of magic does pretty well into these target but under those circumstances the LOC just wins against everything but maybe the bloodthirster becouse the lore of tzeentch hurts and flying means most of them can’t touch it
the Bears not dying is kislev special ability
I think the terracota is fairly priced, the thing is really derpy moving it around and in addition it's in cathay so...
Enjoyed the slo-mo replay.
Only thing I think you got wrong is the possible nerf or increase in cost of the Terracotta Sentinel. Grand Cathay needs buffs as they are the least balanced army for versus at the moment and from start. If anything thing they need a meager buff and to be dropped to 1500. A cheap large boss plus the other ranged units is what will finally balance Cathay.
Well the dirt Gundam is the best! Who would have thought that a massive block of terracota made by a god-empero...I mean a dragon emperor that made a mile tall wall that stop chaos would lose?
Necrosphinx: Lets see whos my new enemy
I liked the video the moment you announced that the Terracotta Sentinels won the event. I honestly think that they're the coolest large unit in the whole total war warhammer trilogy, especially compared to the generic giants who look like oversized drunkards with loincloths and clubs while the Sentinels look both awesome and intimidating regardless of size. Terracotta Sentinels for the win!
Your commentary is awesome, sir 😂
Subbed 😊