Pakistan: The Roads Not Taken | Shehzad Ghias Shaikh
Вставка
- Опубліковано 10 гру 2023
- Let’s discuss the alternative paths, and pivotal moments that could have shaped the nation’s destiny. Join us for an illuminating exploration of the roads less or not traveled in Pakistan’s complex history.
About the Speaker:
Shehzad Ghias Shaikh is a distinguished alum of LUMS and a Fulbright Scholar, holding a Master’s degree in Theatre History from Brooklyn College, New York. Renowned for his insightful perspectives, Shehzad is the engaging host of the widely acclaimed podcast, The Pakistan Experience.
He narrated the story ‘half baked’ about Jinnah’s proposing ‘Sikh’s’ to join ‘Pakistan’ but let me tell you what happened after that one of the worst ‘massacres’ of ‘Sikhs’ was done by ‘Jinnah’s Muslim League’ in Thoha Khalsa village in Rawalpindi in March 1947 because ‘Sikhs’ refused to be part of ‘Pakistan’. 200+ Sikhs were ‘butchered’ with ‘80+ ladies’ committing ‘suicide’ by jumping into a well.
As an Indian Sikh, both of who's grandfathers were forced to move from Pakistan to India during the partition and leave everything behind, I can tell you that I'm eternally grateful to them that they made that decision. Jinnah was a conman, who while preaching secularism never did or even say anything to protect the Sikhs or Hindus who were being murdered in West Pakistan. Contrast that with Gandhi, Nehru, Patel and other Indian leaders who went to places where Muslims were in danger and made sure that they were not harmed. That's the difference between Pakistan & India.
India may be in religious path now, Indians have capacity to auto-update themselves. We have been a secular and multiculture and we all celebrate it. South Asian countries are deep in crisis in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Sri Lanka, Maldives, Bangladesh, Nepal, Myanmar except Bhutan. These countries have religious, military coup. Only India is vibrant democracy, constitutional democracy, diverse, multi cultural, multi-religious, regional diverse, multi language. We celebrate it. We love thriving India.
The problem with Pakistanis not Indian Muslims is that they think if India becomes Hindu state all the other religions will lose their freedom but Muslims in india very well know the mentality of Hindus that Hindus are in themselves in their existence secular..our mindset is secular we only want other communities to respect our culture and country at most .. do what u want with your religion for us all religions are equal if u respect our culture we will consider u equal to every other Indian ..
Dear 'Black Hole', from next episode, can you please identify the person (s) who draw the art on the black board? They do a wonderful job. A small font of their name in the corner will also be good to recognize them.
*Biggest DrawBack when Pakistanis speak about india is they never been to india, they just read some leftist magazines. Pakistanis just repeat that with variations.* India & the Path India is taken is not some outcome of some 10-15 yrs, but is a natural discourse unfolding which would be expected based on the history, india will find the right balance and place when it will regain the original strength & values, in coherence with Wodern times.
What is the relevance of the 2 nation theory and South Asian Muslim nationalism in 2023 when 60% of South Asian Muslims live in India and Bangladesh? This country needs to re-imagine itself as Hussain Haqqani wrote in his book.
" muze gayab honeka shauk nahi " reflects everything about Baluchi people's freedom of expression.
When the world is discussing about AI, Pakistan is still discussing about its two nation theory and how it came into existence
India is not a Nation State based on imagined communities having one language, culture etc,
India or Bharat is a Civilizational State which always had different ideas, langauges, culture coexisting in it while all see themselves as Bhartiya.
Under the influence of indian left, pakistanis have developed a notion that nehru was the only indian leader. He was behind all the decission, behind constitution, behind the fedral structure. They should try and read about sardar patel, ambedkar, etc. Congress in 1947 was not the party of nehru but a party of which nehru was a part which mind you also included people from sociliest sides like morarji desai and nationaliest side like shayama prasad mukharji. They later parted away when the entire democratic system was estabilished. Nehru then kept winning because of prestige which congress party holded for its role in independence. However not everyone in congress before 1950 or 52 was a nehruvian. They were communiest, socialist, nationaliest, hindutva people etc.
Each and every educated ultra intellectual has same things to say :
1. Creation of Pakistan, qaid e azam bla bla bla
2. Worries about India's secularism and future
3. Never ever uttering a word about the real "issue" of Pakistan, the peaceful religion and it's teachings.
When Jinnah mentioned hindus and muslims are 2 different nations and they are completely different people, what does it mean when he asks sikhs to join pakistan ...? The moment pakistan was formed, its history was written.... minorities obviously could not be equals. Those minorities included religion, ethnicities and thats why pakistan is where it is.
India has always been secular ( even before independence ) and thats becaus hinduism is open and welcoming.
Basic problems of
1. It was never a democracy
2. Over population which nobody talks about.
3. Education system is rotten.
4. Islamic radicalization from the schools.
5. Military dictatorship.
Solutions:-
1. Stop this nonsense of Pan- Islamic nationalism, it's not helping Muslim's anywhere in the world. You will see more and more right wing leaders all around the world and it won't be good for you people. Palestinians se hamara rishta kya... la ilaah illah lah, Palestinians don't speak your language there are 50+ Islamic countries and nobody takes them as refugees , you yourself kicked out Afghans because you know better why and nobody speaks about Uyghurs ? But China is all weather friend whose friendship is taller than Himalaya and deeper than the ocean. Point is basically it's a facade and political tool so I believe every human being keep there faith to themselves rather than becoming a Momin for there respective religion.
2. Keep military, state and non state actors aside.
3. Forget Kashmir 😂😂 and stop worrying about Indian Muslim's. We have second largest population of the Muslim's in the world which was 5 crores in 1947 and now it's 20 crores. So stop this nonsense for once and all.
3. Crack down all the terrorist camps,stop spreading hatred against minorities.
4. Focus on good rational education rather than teaching hatred.
5. Bring democracy if that's possible 😂😂😂.
6. Atleast have guts to acknowledge that your forefathers were Hindus and not the Mohammad Bin Qasim don't know who gave Qasim the Aadhar card of Pakistan😂😂.
7. Go for political stability atleast selected PM toh tenure poora kare apna😂😂.
Not only that Jinnah didn't criticise massacres of Sikhs amd Hindus in Rawalpindi, and that of Hindus in Calcutta ( Direct Action Day ) , he conspired with Muslim hooligans to do that violence as a stated strategy for "creation of Pakistan"
Im a great admirer of Shehzad and I listen to him regularly on his channel (from India/US) though I dont always agree with his opinions about hindus/India. It's OK, he hasn't been there. The Black Hole is one of the best talks I have heard, thanks to Parvez Hoodbhoy and the guests he brings to his show. In his case too, I overlook his comments on India because though he is a very learned man, he is not so sharp on his history.
In India lok sabhas. Elected in 1967, 1977,1989,1996,1998,1999, were dissolved prematurely due to political instability, but system continued
Shehzad is one of the best podcaster...I love his way of engaging audience and guests in conversation...
I thoroughly enjoyed listed to Shehzad Ghias, very interesting talk.. i am glad he is there. always loved to listed to his thoughts.
Shehzad Ghias is one of my favourite UA-camrs. I always learn something new from his podcasts. His choice of guests and questions is always pertinent and eye opening. And his sense of humour is very intelligent and genuinely funny
In India educated new generation is very concious now to whom to vote. The social media is giving immense information. So no politicians or religious leaders can fool the common people. Instead of comparing with India, Pakistan should have political stability first. India is going to be world's 3rd economy in few years.
We need a few more thinking young men like Shehzad Ghias!❤
In any case, the question for Pakistanis today is - what paths are really open to Pakistan right now, and which one should they take?
ماشاءاللہ شہزادہ سلامت رہو سائیں ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
What's Pakistani identity. If you can answer. This debate will be closed 😊
Similar question can be asked about "Hindu" or "Indian" identity which are Western words.
Point is societies are complex and have complex identities. Everyone should try to have a more inclusive society - thats the ideal.
Your comment shows your education and class
He just going wandering on different points but not exactly telling what is idea of pakistan
It changes every few years i think
initially until the 60s it was 5000 years of Pakistan civilization
from the 60s till late 70s it was Persian culture
from 70s till imran Khan it was Arab culture
from imran Khan era it was Ertugrul who birthed Pakistani culture
Not only this debate but also Black Hole.
2:05:47 this guy made very good point when I found muzamil in beginning shahzad's podcast was one of the few places where he appeared and spoke in depth. Of course there were videos of him here and there, but if you truly wanted to hear him you'd come to his podcast.
Thank heavens that we Indians are not going back to Nehru. It was the Nehru-Gandhi family congress which led us to a disastrous economy until 1991, not to forget the muslim appeasement for furthering their own political goals. Nehru-Gandhi family congress never spoke of Parsis, Buddhists, Jews etc as a religious minority since they were not a vote bank, not to forget what the Nehru-Gandhi family congress did to the Sikhs.
Its so damn funny to see these bloody pakistanis singing praises these last few years for Nehru-Gandhi family congress and also Atal Ji. We can recall what pakistan did to India under them. 1948, 1965, 1971, 1999, parliament attack, 26/11 etc. Indian political history didn't begin in 2014. We Indians just turned the page and changed our chapter. pakistanis who have never had anything to do with Democracy, don't understand the concept of inclusivity are lecturing us Indians for choosing our future our way Democratically. Reason why pakistan is a failed state with a permanent kashkol and not an pinch of democracy.
Great dialogue Black Hole and Shehzad/TPE. Thank you so much.
Shahzad, enjoyed the show. You, Dr. Hoodboy and Shakil Chowdhary are my favourite Pakistani UA-camrs.
In India, we Hindus, are basically secular. Secularism need not be imposed on us from top. No matter whether it’s BJP or Congress no regime can shake the foundations of our this quality.
Even amongst BJP majority is not against Muslims. People now like BJP not because it’s against any community but because Modi is doing a great job of lifting India high which no one had imagined in their dreams 15 years ago.
In 2:05:36 religion is not as important to Hindus as it is to the muslims in Pakistan and even in India.
Pakistani first has to learn RIGHT HISTORY,
EK THA RAJA OR EK THI RANI ,,,,,,END OF THE STORY OF PAKISTAN.
Been a while since I've heard shehzad. Man still as captivating. Great discussion.
Chandragupta and Ashoka not taught in pakistan 🤪🤪
First time seeing full house
How come any talk on Black Hole has around 700 watchers?
Shows something
I will like to correct the Rawalpindi fellow on Master Tara Singh. He did not want a seprate nation of Punjab he wanted a seprate state of Punjab ***within** India not different from it. Which he ultimately got later he also wanted American style Federalism which he did not got, You can debate his assertion or practicality of american style federalism in India but you cant call him a seccesionist
Bhai saab
Gram panchayat was there before britishers came to india ( yes , INDIA / BHARAT)
COLUMBUS WAS LOOKING FOR NATION CALLED INDIA in 1492. Almost 300 yrs before british were on indian soil.
Boya Ped Babool Ka
Aam kahan se Hoye
Black hole is a super good platform..always having good debates ... congratulations and keep up the good work . ... I also want to appreciate the hands which draw the black board behind the speaker ..nice to see Shehzad out of his Studio and become part of this discussion!
Shehzad Ghias sahib has the guts to call spade a spade and not twist the truth to make it appealing to the Elites. Thank you sir.
I have been hearimg same kind of analysis coming from Pakistan since 2008. Thats my earliest memory of UA-cam and brush with thinkers/intellectuals of Pakistan.
Same analysis, no change on ground.
Sad, But true.
A beautiful talk to think of.,please.
Nice to listen to Sehzad here.
Love u son. How can anybody be so correct.? You are a real scholar as you talk about all aspects and not just one Bravo❤❤
Salam, good talk. Shehzad brought a good mix of serious topics with a touch of humour.
Good to see Shehzad here
Very well spoken Shehzad sb 👍👍👍
52:08 I am thankful to you for touching 'Direct Action Day'.
Very candid discussion. Appreciated.
I might offend some Pakistanis and Pls don't delete my comment
We claim that there is something wrong with you, because long traditions of repeated first and second cousin marriges in your community
That's it
8:31 are bhi update Karo black board see digital screen,Naya kuche karo gee too Naya pen ayega.
Shezad ,l watched you first time l did not recognise your tremendous talent.Over the time l realised the truth that you are many notches above the other intellectuals .Hats off to you 💝 Mr Pervez Hoodboy remained silent as he was totally sure about your intelligence and intellectual capabilities ❤❤
Sab India se hi dekh rahe ho ge
Good to see atleast hall is full👍
Yes it is very rarely in very important topics too.
Excellent talk
Thank you for the partition Nehru and Jinnah.... Best wishes to Pakistan, we are not the same, thankfully 🙏
You should tell your friend S. Muzzamil to stop quoting western philosophers and stick to the local .There is plenty to go around. No need to impress people with foreign names.
This is Happening after 75 years 😢😢
Why your story begins only after Mughals , dint India not exist before Mughals or before profit Mohd , this is exactly the problem in Pakistan even the so called educated class don’t want to talk before Mughals, be open & accept your blood is Indian & not Mughals , the day u accept the truth Pakistan will liberate
Great session really Welldone Blackhole and Shehzad
Sir, quite a cluttered lecture but with good intentions. An additional comment.
Islam created Pakistan but could not reconcile regional aspirations of just 4 provinces.
Sheikhooo the great 👏
The story of islamabad is same here in Deheadun, siliguri, and countless cities in india.
Marvellous presentation, thanks a lot.
Was waiting for shakeel chaudhary to ask question
This shows majority of viewers are Indians, it means You understand the education level of Pakistan...
My conclusion is that Pakistan is a failed idea that was bound to become a failed state. The only good news out of this is Bangladesh. If Bangladesh has done better without Pakistan then it would be also good for the people of Sindh, Punjab, Balochistan and Pushtunistan to thrive and excel without Pakistan. For people who are so called Pakistanis to thrive..then Pakistan needs to stop existing.
Well, if you don't like Indian trolls stop directly or indirectly mentioning or hinting about India. Even when things are grudgingly acknowledged the inbuilt hatred, jealousy and envy seeps through which you may not realise.
So be prepared to receive on an open platform as good as you give.
When it comes to most Pakistani's speaker ....somehow it's all about only Muslim....I have not seen any prosperous country which is not secular...for long....it's all about building human capital on scientific values....
Comments show How many Muslim are interested in Learning 😢😢
*First Disparity in Speaker's Argument* : He gave Example of South africa apartheid, positive discrimination which is *an example of course correction, with Truth and Reconciliation, identify the wrong and take action to correct it going forward.* But when Question comes about the False Identity created for Pakistan, he doesn't say course correct it, adopt truth & Reconciliation undo the injustices done with various ethno-religious identities & rights, but he falls short & say Don't need to define any identity, let it be, let people take their direction, *which is basically saying Mitti pao in Punjabi*
Anyway much appreciated .. your effort is.
Excellent.
Very good talk
Root of culture in India is for sure Sanskrit and all other indegenous languages from Kashmir to Kanyakumari
I wish i was there😊
Unless Pakistan repudiates most of Jinnah's ideas, there is no viable way forward for it.
My comments below show some of them.
50:20 very well said Shehzad, "zaruri nhi hr mulk ka nazarya ho" 👏
So much Confusion 😕
Jinnah, 1943:
"We are asked by some constitutional Pandits, why can't there be some sort of loose federation or confederation? People talk like that. I shall read out to you what I have written on this point, because it is important:
There are people who talk of some sort of a loose federation. There are people who talk of giving the widest freedom to the federating units and residuary powers resting with the units. But they forget the entire constitutional history of the various parts of the world. Federation however described and in whatever terms it is put, must ultimately deprive the federating units of the authority in all vital matters. The units, despite themselves, would be compelled to grant more and more powers to the central authority, until in the end a strong central government will have been established by the units themselves and they will be driven to do so by absolute necessity, if the basis of a federal government is accepted. Taking for instance the United States and her history, the Dominions of Canada and Australia, the Union of South Africa and Germany and of other lands where federal or confederal systems have been in existence, necessity has driven the component members and obliged them to increase and delegate their power and authority to the connecting link, namely, the central government.
These ideas are based entirely on a wrong footing due to want of correct understanding as to what really federation means or implies. It is not of much importance whether the units in theory have the residuary powers or the centre.
But once the units accept the basis of federal central government it follows that it will inevitably and out of sheer necessity resolve itself into an all-powerful central authority and the units will be compelled to grant and delegate more and more powers to the centre, which also can hold these units as connecting links, more or less like a country council or glorified municipalities or feudatory states under the central authority.
We are opposed to any scheme, nor can we agree to any proposal, which has for its basis any conception or idea of a central government - federal or confederal - for it is bound to lead in the long run to the emasculation of the entire Muslim nation, economically, socially, educationally, culturally, and politically and to the establishment of the Hindu majority raj in this sub-continent.
Therefore, remove from your mind any idea of some form of such loose federation. There is no such thing as loose federation. Where there is a central government and provincial governments they will go on tightening, tightening and tightening until you are pulverised with regard to your powers as units."
❤❤❤
Sir Vidiadhar Naipaul said in of the books, " Religions extraterritorial to Indian Subcontinent are not compatible to the local ethos".
Bhukh hai to sabr kar roti nahi to kya hua?
in dino jere bahas hai ye muddah!
This is appropriate answer to discussion at 1:26
What a scholarly discussion
Rarely you see such view point in the subcontinent
Fourth stage of identity crisis!
V good vlog. Truth being told.
So oct 7 ko jo hua uski justification ye h ki Israel 75 saal se wha h toh Kashmiri Hindus can also the same with Muslims in Kashmir?
While countries may be founded on myths, it cannot be based on demonstrable falsehoods. Jinnah himself laid the founding of Pakistan with the invasion of bin Qasim.
Likewise, the two nation theory was exclusionary. It did not say, we are brothers, but want to divide the ancestral property (M.K. Gandhi's formulation of a basis for partition which Jinnah utterly rejected). Jinnah insisted that Muslims and Hindus were distinct nationalities and could not live in one nation.
The Indian nationalists would not participate in World War II merely to perpetuate British rule over India. Edward John Thompson (1886-1946) wrote "Enlist India for Freedom!"(1940) to argue for something different. But:
In my talk with Mr. Jinnah last October, there was this exchange: there is no harm in quoting it, since it is what he has said so often and so often.
"Two nations, Mr. Jinnah! Confronting each other in every province? every town? every village?"
"Two nations. Confronting each other in every province. Every town. Every village. That is the only solution."
"That is a very terrible solution, Mr. Jinnah!"
"It is a terrible solution. But it is the only one".
Who make these beautiful❤ creative designs on board.....???...Black hole should make her meet us audience...
Why worry about India's secularism when your country don't believe in it..?
Sir, history is associated with humans, if in the Indian sub continent some think they just popup in 1947 then they have a new identity which takes 1000 years more to get established. For those who think their history is before 1947 or before they adopted Islam they have a strong identity.
❤❤
And we need to remain separate. We do not need radicals or moderate Muslims from Pakistan who condone violence with their silence. Thank you, Jinnah and Gandhi.
We educated Indians will keep voting Modi into power.
Thinking is start where previous has came to an end. Need is the mother of all inventions.
Wish, The Black Hole is watched by at least 30 percent of population of Pakistan . Things will definitely change the situation.
When will Pakistanis stop bringing India in everything Pakistani have a problem with and comparing India's flaws with Pakistan? The day Pakistan idenfiy itself as an independent country and dont dwell in partition like they always do, probably things will change for good for them.
Why is comments full with Hindu nationalist bots
such people are required for pakistan.
I wish
I WISH!
Countries are formed for cultural and linguistic reasons. Sometimes on ethnicity.
TBH, in India secularism is completely one sided. Minority wants Sharia and Majority is supposed to be secular. We are fed up with this. India should NEVER have been secular at all. We should have declared to be a Hindu state right in 1947, and be done with it. Perhaps its 76 years late, better today than never. If Pakistanis are concerned, they are free to give Indian Muslims citizenship instead of crying crocodile tears. Also send all of your non muslims to India. We'll be happy to offer them citizenship.