Forehand topspin vs backspin - Amateur vs Pro technique in slow motion
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- Опубліковано 20 вер 2024
- In this video I compare the forehand topspin vs backspin technique of an amateur player (myself) with the forehand topspin vs backspin technique of a professional player (England No.1 Liam Pitchford).
Liam is able to play a much faster, direct and aggressive forehand topspin shot, but how is he able to do this?
To help us work it out, I use some side-by-side slow motion analysis. This helps see how Liam uses his body and fluid motion to produce a much more dynamic attacking shot.
There is also some footage of me trying to return Liam's very fast forehand topspin attacks.
In the video Liam is using the following equipment:
Blade: Victas Liam Pitchford blade: bribartt.co.uk...
Rubbers: Victas V15 Extra: bribartt.co.uk...
You might also be interested in Liam’s Masterclass coaching series he recorded with Table Tennis Daily Academy: tabletennisdai...
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Astounding slow mo tutorial. I was able to pin point my own mistakes. Thank you Tom Lodziak for putting such great videos. I bought your book the other day and learning lots of knew things. I started playing TT 3 months ago, and your channel and the book are a hidden gem. Thank you!
Thanks Amir for watching and buying the book. Keep on playing and I hope you make good progress over the next few months.
@@TomLodziak Please make a video Explaining Types, effects of Spins on Ball & How to Play or Counter them❓️
This series of videos with amateur/pro player in slow motion is incredible. Thanks for the good work, it is really interesting to analyze the technique in such details.
The side by side view of a pro & amateur is so ingenious. Well done Sensei Tom!
I don't see a point in looking at top European players' technique. Every one of them is doing their own thing. There is no such thing as table tennis technique in Europe. Liam's technique is completely crazy, with his index finger insanely high on the rubber, an unhinged wrist action, weight all the way back, alpine skiing-style weight transfer with no push from his right foot, etc. There are like 100 things in how he does it that won't work for anyone else on the planet. It works for him, but there is absolutely no reason for any amateur to be looking at this. Thank you for this slow-mo, I always thought his stroke was off the hook crazy, but this gives a unique perspective into how completely mental it actually is.
I am not getting what he is doing with his wrist. I think it doesn't support the stroke at all. Also I think the video is not bad at all.
@@ZynischerDemokrat no one was there to fix it when he was a kid. He’s using the whiplash effect to put a little more speed on the paddle, but of course that comes at the cost of a lot of accuracy. It can work for a pro player who just happens to be talented enough… a poor idea for anyone else :)
@@ZynischerDemokratit’s not textbook but the way it set up the wrist opened up the angle so he can achieve the smooth transition from open bat angle to closed bat angle as needed. This is much better way to have the ball stick to the rubber rather than vice versa (closed to open). The reverse would ruin the swing arch and cause the ball to be out of control, usually fall to the net when tried to brush and fall out when you hit because of lack of dwelling time means less spin.
The worst thing is actually you can play that way and put the ball to the opponent side so a lot of newer players never got this problem fixed. I only got this fixed after seeing myself on slow motion camera.
I naturally do that same pointer finger in my FH
While there are some obvious 'bad' techniques, there is no such thing as a single all encompassing 'perfect' technique. You should be taking the best and most relatable bits from each example to improve you own technique. Immediately ruling out techniques because it isnt widely adopted will put a ceiling on your own development. tldr take everything (good and bad) with a healthy grain of salt :)
Tom, these latest videos with Liam are incredible! Please keep em coming!
An excellent break down and explanation of Liam’s technique. One other thing I noticed is that he also brings his left arm further across and then swings it back around therefore creating more energy with the rotation of his upper body.
I have seen many of your videos over the years, and this is my favorite one so far. I feel that there are many great points that I can use to help my own game. I also see that in the setup, his wrist is flexed on this right hand, while your hand is extended. I am not sure how relevant that is, but there is a big difference. All the best!
These types of videos teaching table tennis has made me fall in love with this game. Keep up the good work bro
Tom, I'm not one who typically comments on videos. But I had to take the time to comment on this one. THIS IS AN EXCELLENT AND I DO MEAN, EXCELLENT VIDEO! Thank you very much for the analysis. This is GOLDEN!! I really appreciate it!!
Thanks for the feedback. Hope the video helps in some small way.
Liam’s hit looks like a slap while yours looks like a brush. And wow, so lucky of you to have Liam Pitchfork as a personal pro sample. I’ve seen him in different video if yours.
Great video, Tom, though you missed the key difference. Liam's arm is driven by his body rotation; watch how is elbow rotates back and forward in sync with his hips. You arm is moving more independently of your hip rotation; watch your elbow go back and forward ahead of your hips. For this reason, Liam 's power comes from his legs, whereas yours is mostly an arm shot. If you work on keeping your elbow more connected (via shoulders and core tension) to your hips, you'll find you can easily generate more power.
About the fluid motion. So there is something called micro adjustment that the amateur players don't do. This is when the player is about to make a shot he is realxing his body and even fingers you can see how Liam is doing it as he kind of lets go of his racket this allows him to make a good swing. And just when he is about to hit the ball you can (barely) see how he tightens up so he can play this strong shot and then relaxes again. This is the micro adjustment. And that's why Tom's movement seems so robotic compared to Laim Pitchford.
We're indeed supposed to tighten our grip only at the very contact of the ball and keep the grip loose at all time, something amateur players rarely do.
Great tutorial, and the slow motion really helps to understand the key movements and positioning. If Liam does his forehand topspin in the same way as yours, it would go to the net, I believe that the wrist "whip" is what makes the ball go over. It's a very fluid movement, shows how many hours and probably reviewing of footage he's done. The rotation is very fast as well, I've noticed that he uses his left arm to help with the rotation, bringing it in when he goes back and then rotating it out very fast.
Good catch on Liam's left hand
Tom, very thanks for making the video with Liam. I am sure to improve as you have shown.
In all sport it's always super imprecise to see the difference a very good player at a sport and a pro and of course table tennis is a perfect exemple . Super interesting video !!
One of the most useful videos on UA-cam to improve TS…thx much
Tom all Your videos are excellent. I am sure whole TT community will get benefited by it. Thank You!
Excellent video. Plus bonus points to Tom for being so humble.
That's a great analysis Tom - thank you and well done. Really worth reflecting on.
PS:. Your personal technique seems to keep improving - clearly all those table tennis tips are being put to use for yourself also!! 😉. Your forehand movement and turning and posture is so much better than some years back. Maybe you should do a comparison between your technique then and now!?
Cheers
Dan
Yes, I think I have improved my technique over the past few years. But I still have such a long list of things to work on. A comparison video of 'old Tom' and 'new Tom' could be interesting.
Really good idea this comparison series Tom. It helps a lot correcting the own technique. Thanks
Great video! Today was my first practice doing FH topspin. Really helpful. Greeting from Argentina.
outstanding video! one observation. i would never be able to hit FS TS with this much forward because i dont have 1/4 the acceleration that the pro has. it's the acceleration that gives the ball the lift to get up and over the net eh? the forward is what's generating the tremendous speed. if i hit this much forward, i would hit the ball into the net every time. the rest of us. non-pros have to hit w/ a bit more up because of this...unless you're young and strong can can generate that much power from the legs and hips. one key difference i noticed from the video is that Tom's arm rotates back and is a "stiffer" 45 degrees through the weight xfer. but the pro's arm is a bit straighter when back and articulates at the elbow for additional power/speed.
Amazing comparison and analysis. Thank you Tom
A superb video. One of your best, Tom. Thank you for your help.
Thanks for sharing. Appreciate the slowmo and 4k too 👍🏼
This is a really good contribution Tom. Good job!
Thanks for the video and everything you do.
I think you missed the most important difference which is the racket face angle in the back swing. Liam lets the racket see the sky, which then allows him to go forward, as you mentioned, while your racket is too closed and you are enforced to actually open it up in your forward swing motion, finishing above your forehead.
I see *a lot* of players strugling with this stroke because of this issue, so I think it could be very helpful to point it out.
The thumbnail shows literally the best possible frame to see it
Liam is timing his backswing better too, he's stronger so he can push harder with his legs. His arm is going against his body and then being dragged forward by the rotation. It's a whip type motion which is lacking a bit in your stroke Tom.
Another thing that might be worth noticing is Liam’s right shoulder. He keeps it very low during the stroke and at the end it is no higher than his left. Tom’s right shoulder is higher in the stroke and ends up a bit higher than his left. My coach has been pushing me to keep that right shoulder low is why that popped out for me.
Amaizing! Thank you very much! I have noticed one more thing that you do different, when watching you from the side, you arm from the start till the moment it hits the ball is making small arc movement, while Liams is going very stright for that section.
Thank you for guiding me as i return back post 3 decades!
Nice video. Thanks for posting. Another thing that the pro does is that he unwinds his body before the arm comes forward more than you do. There is a slight delay hard to see in normal speed. This adds a whip like action and the result is that the stroke is faster, more relaxed and fluid. Its like the body is moving the arm more. Body first then arm second.
Another thing the pro does a little is that he uses a bent arm takeback and straightens the arm a little in the forward swing. Many Chinese pros straighten the arm a lot more in the forward swing giving even more racket head speed. You need a relaxed arm to do this that most club players never experience.
Thank you for another great video with Liam. Wait for more.
Great stuff! Love the comparison (and the humility :D it's not always easy analysis your own self!)
Fantastic video, very helpful - one of the best in that area that I have seen... thank you!
I learned much, thanks!!! love your tutorial
I would add a 4th important point: the weight transfer..really very obvious difference between u both
In my opinion, the most important difference between them...
Incredibly useful video! Slomo is great and very well explained! Thank you and please keep these coming! 😊👍 Subscribed!
Best yet. The slo-mo is very useful
Just watched one game by Liam in the 2022 Chengdu WTT championships, He is a very strong TT player!
Great video. Been busy playing and finally got a chance to watch this one. Great video. I actually think beginner to intermediate players should work toward your style first and then as they progress, and only then, move on to Liam's style. I still have to be careful to not end up blocking the ball versus really looping it so I still go with the more vertical movement (versus more forward movement) to better insure a looping motion (although Liam is looping too). But that's just me and where I am at right now.
That was nice to see liam play ^^ what a amazing down spin drive.
Tom this is enormously helpful. Please do more like this
I just started doing training recently and wow I've been doing so much wrong! was able to point out all of the stuff I was doing wrong within mere minutes. Thanks for your breakdown!
Great analysis, Tom! Most convincing! Keep it on/
Hello Tom. At 5:02 in the above video, the BAT ANGLE and the ARM-SWING ANGLE of Liam Pitchford is 40° while YOUR BAT ANGLE and ARM-SWING ANGLE is 56°.
Since the COSIN of Liam's 40° BAT ANGLE is 0.766 and the COSIN of YOUR 56° BAT ANGLE is 0.559, then (ignoring for the moment the HIGHER ARC that your LOOP
has compared to Liam's LOOP), if we presume for the moment that the SPEED of Liam's ARM-SWING is the same as the SPEED of your ARM-SWING, then simple
Trigonometry tells us that the FORWARD MOVEMENT of Liam's LOOP against backspin will be 37% FASTER than yours,
because 0.766/0.559 = 1.37. And when we factor in the LOWER ARC of Liam's ball compared to YOUR ball, then this SPEED DIFFERENCE is possibly even GREATER.
If you can simply LOWER your BAT ANGLE and ARM-SWING-ANGLE from your current 56° to 45° (a more common BAT ANGLE for ADVANCED players for a LOOP against
backspin) the FORWARD BALL SPEED of your LOOP against backspin would increase by 26%, because 0.707/0.559 = 1.264.
hard to find good analysis, excellent!
Really love the side-to-side comparison, very much highlighting the quality difference between amateurs and real pros. One thing I also somewhat notice is Pitchford seems have faster backswing and preparation phase. Comparatively he starts his backswing later, but contacts the ball at the same time with Lodziak. Tell me if I'm wrong.
yeah, it's very important to don't react 'too fast'. It's a big mistake of mine, I am moving too early so it's easy to miscalculate where the ball will go exactly and how much will it kick off the table. Liam waits a little longer to have a better understanding of the incoming ball.
Your videos are really helping my game
There is so much depth, detail and skill to every sport
Some principles are absolutely right.
Point your shoulder to the Ball.
Get closer to the table.
Open your racket more from the start.
He hits the ball a little more in the front/laterally to his body.
Liam basically has the perfect timing for hitting that ball because his legwork is superior aswell.
And liams leg position is more parallell at the backspin ball, which brings his center of gravitiy closer to the ball. This is super important, because you will loose stability, if your leg is too far away from the ball, which often leads to weird arm movement and a bent upper body (backwards), absolutely worst case for a stroke
At this point, after starting tt at 30 now 5 years into it, I missed the train to become a professional player by about 25 years.
For beginners at young age, this tutorial is very good.
Since I will never become proficient at having such a good fh topspin, I rather stick to being an annoying pusher/chopper instead, giving average loopers a very hard time.
Dont give up! Im 35 and I just startet as well, getting in shape to be able to reach that level only for the love of it.
@@BloodEmpireGPLP I didn't give up yet.
With a Federal League playing trainer right now who shows me the "magic" of table tennis, my topspin game improved dramatically.
Sometimes (occuring more often week by week) I hit the ball just at the perfect time, with the least effort but maximum speed, spin and precision and that gives me hope.
I don't even need long pips any more on my backhand to slow down the game if needed.
5 more years and I might become a middle class player in one of my provinces.
But that will take a lot of effort, I'm just half way there.
Being proficient at the basics just after 5 years shows how complex of a sport table tennis is.
Somebody pointed out to me that my BH stroke was too much up than forward. I realized that corrected it. My BH stroke used to be slow and had a high arc and how it's flatter and faster. Similar to what you have found on the FH.
Top class analysis.. big thanks Tom
The major difference is the wrist action. Snapping when hitting create a lot more power vs. Fixed wrist!
Great analysis. Well done!
you returned one.
god every time liam does a forehand its like a gun being shot lol. Also I am loving this vs pro videos, my backhand improved with that.
Excellent explanation
Fantastic video! You learn so much and can try to pinpoint these in your own game, thanks!!
Incredible tutorial Tom. Thank you. Hopefully I can attain this this year after last years injury's. Both knees complex tears, plus little fracture and partial torn ligament in one.. Here's to fighting to get to this lol ... Hope you had a lovely Christmas and NY. 🤗👊
Oh boy. That sounds like some nasty injuries. I have multiple surgeries on my right knee, so I can understand how much effort it takes to regain fitness. Don't rush it, but keep on building your strength and flexibility. Hope 2023 is a better year for you.
@@TomLodziak Thank you Tom... Appreciate it!
We can also see that Liam breathes out during contact (correct!), while it looks like Tom does not (wrong).
Excellent tutorial
Strange you didn't mention hips/waist rotation (not only the shoulders!). Absolutely crucial for the power topspin. Your hips rotation, although can't be described as non-existent, lack amplitude and explosiveness.
EXCELLENT video Tom
That was a million Dollar demonstration.
Thanks.
Thank you Tom, very interesting video!
also, we can see in the slowmo, liam turns his body a bit later, while you turn your body earlier. this builds up more elastic potential which allows him to bounce back faster, kinda like how you can jump higher.
Please Explain the Types of Spins on Ball & their effects and How to Play or Counter them❓️❓️
These coparisons are great!
Excellent analysis!!
Great video, coach
Two things in noticed is that Liam has a sort of slapping action where his hand is fairly relaxed until up to the moment of contact. Second is notice his index finger which is angled upwards almost parallel to his forearm instead of the typical parallel to the base of the blade that most beginners are taught to use. This is what’s helping him propel and direct the ball with more forward action and hence more pace.
Great tips for the forehand topspin.
It's a small detail but Liam's breathing also seems different. He holds his breath and then exhales strongly.
Salam olahraga, salam satu hobi dan salam kenal untuk semuanya..
Terima kasih coach ilmunya 👋🙏
The grip also plays a very important role, although maybe minor compared to the other things you pointed out here. Excellent analysis!!
Im trying to make an animation of people playing table tennis. This is great to use!
One thing I noticed is Liam's breathing technique. He holds his breath and only exhales during/after he hits the ball.
Good job tom!
The best Video what i see.
what impresses me is his balance even after playing the shot so powerfully his body is straight I am facing the problem where i can only play towards the forehand side of ring hand not the back hand side and my body rotates afterwards but my shorts are very fast when I manage to play but body is a mess afterwards.
Excellent vidéo !
Thankyou for an interesting video, whilst its very effective for Liam, I dont think its necessarily an ideal technique to copy. it would help too if the clothes worn by player were of contrasting colors so you could see more of the body position during the stroke, such as hips and waist area during technique.
Thanks for great video
you have more safe top spin. I would rather have yours during fast rally. Less movement and more effective during forehand to backhand transition. I think you need to step back a little more when you know that its gonna be a heavy top spin and return it to the right side in order for him to commit mistake using his backhand.
Very interesting. Thks
Однозначно подписка! Спасибо, тренер!
Excellent
Great Video
Parabéns amigos, mais vídeos assim por favor … ❤
I can do similar stokes as the professionals, because I practice with a robot; but, when I am playing vs. a player, I am not able to read my opponent quickly enough to move my feet fast enough and make use of the strokes. There are tons of videos of me playing on my channel, both vs. players and with the robot.
well done on the one block Tom .
Ha! Not much of an achievement!
Very nice video
good video~ thank you
Need a tutorial of how do the backspin or topspin by Liam please 😅
Notice also Liam bends his wrist inwards on thr take back and then straightens it when he makes contact
Actually it depends on your playing style. Look at Liam's index finger, posture, and feet movement. It's not a text book style for good control and balance.
Watch Zhang Jike, FZD, and Ma Long. Notice their non-playing hand movement and torso. That is more important than the wrist. Never rely on wrists. In high speed games wrist control is the most difficult part.
The foot position baffles me. I thought your feet needed to be offset for the forehand, but Liam’s feet are parallel and he rotates his shoulders and hips while bending his legs. Is this because he’s a more backhand-oriented player and squares up with the table?
Maybe that's the reason why. But it could be worth trying a more parallel stance. I know many pro players do this and use their very flexible waist movements.
@TomLodziak Thank you Tom and Liam so much! so useful video!! the details are very important! pls do the same forehand drive/loop/counter top spin. guys like this comment so Tom can see it