A most enjoyable video! Holmes wrote a book, ‘Fantasy Role Playing Games’ soon after his edition of D&D in which he further explains what RPGs are and how to play them. He also presages the anti-D&D movement/Satanic Panic of the 1980s, providing one of the earliest defences of the hobby.
Holmes was my first edition (and I even still have box, but I think I lost the chits), and while I quickly went to AD&D, it'll always be one of my fondest...
Thank you for your channel! I only started playing DnD with 5e in 2021, but I’ve been playing video game RPGs for years. When I get into a hobby, I’m the kind of person that enjoys learning all about the history of the topic. I’d watch (listen) to all the DnD history videos I could, but there wasn’t a whole lot of options. Your channel has been exactly what I’ve been searching for all this time. Been listening to videos for the past month and a half, and it’s great. Thank you for all the work and effort you’ve put into these. It’s appreciated!
Thank you so much! i really appreciate you saying that, and I'm so glad you found my channel and that you enjoy it. I'm like you in that when I get into something, I want to learn as much history as I can and I've done it across multiple subjects (comic book superheroes, wine, jazz... to name just a few). Cheers!
Wow! This is awesome!! I was in middle school in 1977, and had a friend that came into school with these books. All the guys were like "what is this?" And we were off to the races. Coming back and seeing this again has been great! I wish!! Wish, wish, wish I would have kept all my stuff over the years. Thanks for sharing, keep up the great videos, this has been great.
Holmes set was my first D&D book way back in junior high. My gaming circle moved to AD&D fairly quickly. Years later, as an experiment (and well before the inflated collector's pricing), my new group played through every edition available, 2E being the most recent. I cannot imagine as a junior high student outside of the Lake Geneva & Twin Cities wargame circles playing the original rules without substantial difficulty. I specifically, and the hobby in general, owe a great deal to Dr. Holmes and his edition of the game.
John Holmes wrote "Mahars of Pellucidar" which eas my favorite book as a kid (it gave me genuine nightmares, but I loved it). I ran a Blue Book D&D open invite hex crawl game set in Pellucidar on his birthday for a few years to celibrate all Mr Holmes did to shape my nerdom. Its been a while since I ran it, but it was a great tradition while it lasted. I really should revive it, or compile the notes somewhere.
The Blue Book version was the first one that was mass produced and sold in the game/ model/ comic shops. That fist batch, you had to reach out there to the Lake Geneva crew to have them print it local and send it out. Back then, you could reach out to the crew personally, if you had questions or additional stuff to throw at them.
No one I ever ran across called it just D&D when talking about the Holmes D&D box set, which as you rightly noted wasn't known as that. What everyone called it back then in Southern California gaming areas I ran in was "Basic D&D". I can't speak for other areas (states), but that's what I recall back in 1978-1982 until I joined the military. Holmes did a great job at making D&D much more accessible and of course removing some of the external requirements to play original D&D (Avalon Hill's Outdoor Survival & TSR's own Chainmail). Also, most of us started quickly ignoring the exp for gold/treasure, since it made leveling up too fast. Instead opting to give experience for defeating monsters, coming up with good ideas etc. Basically we decided that the reward was in the treasure gained and the items. Good overview, loving the trip down memory lane. Edt: Btw, you were killing me with all the moving around of the books while reading them, then putting one down and snagging another one. Ye ole motion sickness and being old(er) cropping its ugly head.
I can definitely add that to the list! Are you thinking of deep dives into the Eldritch Wizardry, Blackmoor, etc. supplements? Or more like the Dungeon Geomorphs and Monster & Treasure assortments? For those, I do cover them (briefly) in my video on "D&D's Iconic Characters & Early Play Aids": ua-cam.com/video/g3cA1ev-JAU/v-deo.htmlsi=HaPa1I_FiH5jdUMS
Another great video! Thanks for sharing this, Holmes was my intro to D&D back in '82. One thing you left out though, from the Magic section...and it's a doozy! In Holmes a magic user can make a scroll for any spell he knows, starting at first level! This has a major impact on the game, and how low-level magic users are played. When my group "graduated" to AD&D in 83, we kept that rule because it was just so important. Thanks again for doing this research on the older versions.
Holmes was the first edition I played and my dad was my DM. It was just the two of us playing because of where we lived. I think loved it as much as I did when we played. Even after moving to other editions, I still enjoyed the simplicity of it.
cool graphic comparison. I think another thing that makes the Holmes version (and later ones) easier to read is the shorter line length. 2 columns in 8.5" yields shorter line lenghts than 1 column on 5.5". Generally you're more likely to use your place with longer line lengths.
Thanks for the video! I moved from (O)D&D to 1E AD&D as the 1E AD&D books were released but sometimes have played the various Basic versions when folks who were running them didn't mind me not having the exact rules. I've sat in here and there and let the DM tell me when I needed to know something that was slightly different. The groups I was part of for (O)D&D and later were mainly also wargamers or even wargamers first, sometime before D&D was even first published, like myself. I hear some folks say it was difficult to understand (O)D&D if they hadn't played wargames but we seemed to pick it up well enough, I guess. High Gygaxian has a charm all its own which I suppose I encountered when I was so young, it was seen more as a challenge than a barrier. Now it feels archaic in the best possible way, chock full of nostalgia. I always assumed Zenopus was derived from "Xenopus" which breaks down to "strange + foot" which I have heard pronounced as both "zee' · nuh · pus" and "zen' · nuh · pus" so you're probably fine. Holmes seemed to want to keep the Ability Scores fairly simple but still increase PCs' survivability and buff MUs. Resources were an important part of all early D&D and, IMO, is in any Old School RPG emulation. Alignment and encumbrance kinda got fine tuned for 1E AD&D. Initiative has always been an awkward aspect to D&D that the social contract seems to handle, in that once it is explained, players and DMs accept it and use it, no matter the edition. It works out well enough, as long as everyone is on the same page, and every edition offers ways to nerf it and to wheedle against it for advantage. It's kinda funny that way. Damage differences were a revelation and I am not sure if they first were adjusted to use all the dice more often or they wanted things more realistic and someone realized that since they had all these dice, this would be a place to get use out of them. Magic is in constant revision even during editions, it seems, and probably is often written vaguely enough that from table to table it feels different. I always loved sample dungeons and wandering monster tables! I'm also a fan of some nominal experience for the monsters and also experience for treasure (which can be great!). If you don't have a video next week, have a Happy Thanksgiving! Of course, you have a traveling bar case. Why wouldn't you? Perhaps someday you can find a liquor to mix with cranchovie juice (jk). Thanks again for the content!
I always appreciate getting comments from you! Thank you so much! *I hear some folks say it was difficult to understand (O)D&D if they hadn't played wargames but we seemed to pick it up well enough, I guess.* To be fair, I've always approached it as someone who learned via a later edition (Moldvay) but looking back, I find a lot of vagueness and inconsistencies and things that aren't defined that I marvel at how folks figured it out. But then again, I learned how to play Moldvay which, while I think being a better version of teaching you to play, is also a game that folks would look at today and say that it doesn't explain everything! **High Gygaxian has a charm all its own which I suppose I encountered when I was so young, it was seen more as a challenge than a barrier. Now it feels archaic in the best possible way, chock full of nostalgia.* I do very much agree with this. While I poke fun from time-to-time when re-reading, at the time, I found it charming or at least comforting. It made me feel that I was special, being able to read and understand it, and it certainly improved my vocabulary! *I always assumed Zenopus was derived from "Xenopus" which breaks down to "strange + foot" which I have heard pronounced as both "zee' · nuh · pus" and "zen' · nuh · pus" so you're probably fine.* Thanks! *If you don't have a video next week, have a Happy Thanksgiving!* I really appreciate that! Thank you so much! *Of course, you have a traveling bar case. Why wouldn't you?* I'll dig up some of my pics on FB and send to you. One belonged to my parents and I definitely remember it being in the house although they almost never used it. They were going to get rid of it a few decades ago and I asked if I could have it. A few years later, another friend gave me a vintage one that is almost identical, as he didn't know I already had one! *Perhaps someday you can find a liquor to mix with cranchovie juice (jk).* Yuck! But... I mean, it can't be worse than Malört! Thanks again for your comments!
Ha! I had a similar reaction and I remember being intrigued when I finally saw a Holmes Boxed Set a few years later, but also sadly dismissing it at the time because I was playing Advanced.
I was introduced to D&D late '78 when I saw a copy of Holmes and a laid out table with maps and minis at a friends house while living in the UK. I remember the gaming group I was introduced too, opening these little boxes before play began. They were using OD&D although I didn't really know it at the time. I bought the AD&D books as they were released. Maybe because I was 12 at the time, the differences in the editions had no real impact on how we played - which was all about dungeon exploring, rather than rules comparisons..
Fun Fact: while originally requiring an attack roll to hit the target in the initial release of 4th edition (and dealing dice damage to the target), Magic Missile was updated and errata'd with the release of the Essentials product line to no longer requiring an attack roll and dealing flat damage to the target instead.
Ha! I am glad to see this video. I just started watching and just have to say that this is the box set i first bought. I came into a bookstore and the owner was opening his stock of books, i was looking for the Hobbit. He showed me the newest D&D game Holmes , I could see on display the white box game and chainmail book. Well I tell you i had soo much fun with the basic set. You could just start playing so quickly. Really enjoyed it better than Advanced because of the playability. Well back to your video 👋🏻
I started with Holmes and moved on to AD&D as it came out. Couldnt afford the original D&D books before that, or drive myself the 150 miles to the store that had them.
I definitely understand that - game stores near me where I grew up were non-existent, but our local toy stores and department stores often carried TSR stuff (but no other companies).
@@daddyrolleda1 Our first store came along some years later. It was actually a comic shop, but had a shelf where they sold games like D&D, T&T, the old zip-lock bag games including Star Fleet Battles, etc.
The best thing about Holmes was the introductory dungeon in the back. Honestly a much better intro to the game than B2, which I got in the box with it.
Ah, you had a later printing of Holmes then. In case you didn't know, originally there was *no* module included but rather just Dungeon Geomorphs. Then when TSR started publishing modules finally in 1978 (starting with the Giants series), they included a copy of B1: In Search of the Unknown by Mike Carr in the box. However, due to the royalties deals they had, that meant Mike Carr got a percentage of every boxed set being sold due to the inclusion of his module, which meant Gary and Dave then got less money since they were now splitting their royalties with a third person. Gary then quickly wrote B2: Keep on the Borderlands and stuck that in the box so that he got a higher percentage of royalties on the boxed set sales!
My idea for Magic Missile is to make it work like Yondu's arrow. You enchant it to be a +1 magic arrow (or maybe the bonus scales with level) for one minute. In that time, the Magic-User can function as a decent archer with their magic arrow that they can move and recall psychically.
GREAT video. I'll probably have this playing in the background multiple times going forward. :-) One thing that I'd say is also worth mentioning is that Holmes Basic was the first set of D&D rules to totally ditch references to Chainmail. Classes no longer had "Fighting Capability" designations per level. Also with regard to mechanics the original Monster Manual is almost more of an OD&D supplement than AD&D since all of the monsters have AC's ranging from 9 on down instead of 10 like AD&D. I did not know about the updates Gary made to Holmes' original manuscript. Is there an online resource detailing the changes or even containing the full original draft? Thanks!
Hey. Long time lurker of your channel. Haven't been able to watch anything in the last few months, just can't find the time for the 1h+ long videos. Great content as always! This is an exciting new series. Can't wait for you to cover more Basic D&D editions. Just recently i was wondering about the differences between B/X and BECMI as I was joining a convention game using the latter but was my first time. Hopefully you'll get to it.
53:20 keep preaching Reverend! I think encumbrance is a nice thing to have in the game. It's just like if you watch videos of hikers packing on UA-cam and what they bring. They take into account weight and what they're bringing with them, especially if they're doing a long through hike of like the Pacific Crest Trail... That's not a 2-hour hike 🙂.
Don't forget the UCSD group. They also published some of their stuff in 3pp supplements (even before the feist books). Having started in 90/91 myself, with 2e (and still playing it now), and almost immediately jumping into Dark Sun when it came out, I can assure you that, RAW, 2e is all in on encumbrance and other forms of resource management. How much of that is applied at the table of course depends on the group, the DM, and what of 2e's virtually endless variety of supplemental/alternative systems are being used.
I used to listen to the public radio show "Jazz After Hours" back in the mid '80s and its odd you mentioned that line-up. Like a blast from the past foso... I'll have to give this 1e GW giveaway a shot because thats a heavy duty blast from the past there. I wonder if its as beat up as I am? Great Holmes coverage my man, thanks!
I remember Jazz After Hours! If you watch the video on "The Classes of White Dwarf Magazine" you'll see a much more in-depth look at the state of the GW boxed set, which is *very* beat up. But I did include a copy of GW1 Legion of Gold in there to make it more enticing.
The wasn't my introduction to D&D. The Basic rulebook that replaced it on the market in 1981 was. But this one does have an amazing sample dungeon that's still worth running today.
Yes, that sample dungeon gets a lot of praise from folks! Like you, I also started with Moldvay in 1981. Cheers, and thanks for watching and commenting!
21:15 The art style of that illustration reminds me of Diesel LaForce. To say it was definitively one of his would be pure speculation on my part, however.
I still, in many ways, prefer the Holmes edition to all others. Especially for new or young players. When this hit the streets there was a perfect union of timing with the, then, recent release of the first The Hobbit 1978 movie by Bass/Rankin. That movie evoke a feeling very much in line with what Dr. Holmes was trying to create with his version.
Zenopus is an excellent example of a name where the author needs to provide a pronunciation guide for it, if they care to have others say it correctly. The two pronunciations you suggest miss out on the very realistic possibility the primary stress could be on the 'o', which immediately doubles our pronunciation options. I will agree that would be highly annoying were it to be the case, but there are languages that would do it nonetheless, our English-speaking sensibilities being irrelevant to the speakers of that language!
I think that was very common back then! Very cool you started with Holmes. I started with Moldvay and didn't see the Holmes set until a few years later while at my friend's house.
You touched on this but Mr key element. When Gary Gygax wrote original D&D he was writing for a specific audience even outside of his immediate social circle. It's not that he figured he could tell it to somebody's face so much is that the target audience was miniature war gamers who already knew the things left unsaid. When Holmes wrote the game, he wrote for an entirely different audience. Instead of filling in the gaps on miniature wargaming, he wrote a game that owed a lot more to the cooperative storytelling hobby that is D&D today. D&D was a miniature war game that worked well enough as in an RPG for its origins to be neglected for decades.
Regarding variable weapon damage, One of the reference pages of B2 Keep on the Borderlands had a table offering this as an alternative optional rule. So while the concept isn’t included in the Holmes booklet it would have been included in the box sets that shipped with that module.
Interesting. We went straight from original D&D to AD&D. I'm familiar with later "basic" D&D (B/X, BECMI, Rules Cyclopedia) but not Holmes. Thanks for the overview.
You're welcome! I'm glad you enjoyed the video! I will be digging into the differences in Moldvay, Mentzer, etc. While I started with Moldvay in late 1981, we quickly discovered AD&D was a thing and we played both simultaneously without realizing there was a difference. We were too excited to play to actually read the AD&D rules to notice how different they were!
Will you show how BECMI and Mentzer are different from both ODD and ADD, as I only realized in the last year that they were different. I started playing in '81 I think and I never new they were different.
I intend to cover both Moldvay and Mentzer and discuss how they are different from each other as well as from both OD&D and from AD&D. It will make the series a little complicated but I think it's worth covering. Thank you so much for watching and commenting!
Oh wow - totally forgot about that! I only played 4E maybe twice right when it came out and don't remember much about it. Thanks for the reminder! Yet one other thing it has in common with Holmes (along with "to hit" for magic missile, although my understanding is they edited that rule later on).
I had a blast one time playing it for a one-shot that a friend ran. He really leaned into all the unique combinations one could have to take advantage of the tactical nature of the game when he designed our characters for us (he assigned them to us). I think I talked about it on the channel before, but he gave me a character sheet that said, "You are the right head of a pygmy Ettin." Another player was the left head. We had the same physical stats, but different mental stats and different classes (I was a Warlord with a "high" INT of 10, and he was a Fighter with an INT of 6). We had to split our movement in half and were high enough level that I think we each got an action (which could be an attack). I had some powers that basically amounted to intimidating someone into doing what I wanted by force and physical violence. So once I figured it out, my main action each turn would be to take my half move to get into position as much as possible, and then hit the other head and give it a command like, "Go right and attack that guy." The other player leaned into his low INT and would sometimes move the wrong way because he didn't know left from right. Hilarity ensued.
@@daddyrolleda1 Sounds like that was a blast. Back in the day when the 2nd ed player's guide to humanoids came out my friend and little brother played a duo of a minotaur and a goblin. The goblin sat in a harness on the minotaur's shoulders and used his horns to support a heavy crossbow. We called the team Master Crossbow. Lol
Such a great video with great comprehensive information! My introduction to the franchise was the "Introduction to Advanced Dungeons & Dragons" box set that I got at a flea market in the mid 90s when I was real little. Picked up the 3rd edition starter boxes as I got older, but didn't really get much opportunity to play as my friends weren't into it. Skipped 4th. Got back into the hobby with the release of 5th edition and found groups to play with. Now really interested in visiting older versions and seeing the differences and learning the history. Been collecting old starter boxes as well. A video like this is exactly what I was looking for. I'm currently trying to navigate and learn the differences around the split of Holmes Basic to Moldvay, AD&D, and BECMI. I do have a question for you... would you consider the Holmes set the first "AD&D starter set"? It seems that the first actual AD&D starter box are the First Quest and Introduction to AD&D box sets, but those were for 2nd Edition. I'm trying to put together a "history of D&D display" on my wall of starter boxes that forms a sort of sideways "H" (capital "I", but text doesn't show that well here). The middle of the wall has floating shelves going vertical that holds the OD&D box (currently empty shelf), then above it is Holmes box, above that is Moldvay box, and above that is the "New Easy To Master D&D" (black box) set. To the right of the Moldvay box is a horizontal shelf that holds that BECMI boxes. To the left of the Moldvay box is a horizontal shelf that holds First Quest, Intro To AD&D, The Complete AD&D Starter Set (yellow box). To the left and below the OD&D shelf is a horizontal shelf that holds the 3rd Ed "D&D Adventure Game" box, 3.5 "D&D Basic Set" (black dragon), 3.5 "D&D Basic Set" (blue dragon), and 4th Ed Starter Set. Then to the right and below the OD&D shelf is a horizontal shelf for the various 5th edition starter sets. I'm trying to go with a "it started here in the middle, moved up to Holmes, then broke off upwards for B/X, to the right for BECMI, and to the left for AD&D, and then counter-clockwise for 3rd, 4th, and 5th.
Thank you so much! So glad to have you here and I'm glad you're finding my videos interesting and informative! Really quickly before answering your questions, make sure to check out my "History of D&D Editions" video. It's one of my earliest so the quality is a little different (in terms of recording, title slides, etc.) but in ~20 minutes I take you through every edition of D&D from 1974 - 2020. (I did not include Chainmail or Blackmoor, as those are *not* named Dungeons & Dragons, although both are progenitors). Holmes is an interesting case because it really was designed to be a concise introduction to Original D&D but to direct people to Advanced D&D. However, rules-wise, it sits in its own unique position as it has rule differences that are not found in either Original or Advanced D&D! I think for your purposes if you wanted to use it as an example of an "Advanced D&D Starter Set," I don't think most folks would argue with you. That sounds like a very fun project! I wish you luck and I can't wait to see a picture when it's completed!
"A character of charisma below 13 can not hire more than 5 followers, and their loyalty will be luke-warm at best - that us, if the fighting gets hot there is a good probability they will run away." E J Holmes
A lot of people are generally quick to point out that Holmes Basic seems to have the most in common with OD&D when you place it next to everything that came before and after. Zenopus Archives is right to point out that Dr. Holmes' original manuscript points players and DMs in the direction of the original D&D box set for further level advancement, which was changed by TSR to AD&D instead.
I started playing in 1980 and think of White Box as a prototype rather than a finished product and Holmes as a beta. AD&D and Moldvay were the first truly finished, fully playable products that didn't require extensive game experience or reference to other publications. In some ways we've come full circle with the release of ShadowDark which also requires extensive RPG experience and reference to other publications (e.g. nowhere in ShadowDark does it explain how Hit Points are calculated and it lacks any useful description of monster behavior or environments. It assumes you've been playing D&D 5e for years).
Very cool! There's a retroclone of Holmes called "BlueHolme" which is quite popular with that crowd. The "Journeymanne Rules" for it take characters all the way to 20th level even though Holmes stopped at 3rd: www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/208800/blueholme-journeymanne-rules Thanks for watching and commenting!
The Holmes Basic wasn't initially envisioned as a seperate system. It was more like how many games these days have a "Starter Set" (Big Example, Call of Cthulhu) where you get a set of basic game system rules, and stripped down character options to lead into a more complete "Full Version" to allow people who hadn't come through the wargame/OD&D pathway, to move on to the AD&D system. The Starter Rules are completelyplayable, but you ultiamtely reach a point where you wantmore...so you buy the full version. That was the route I and a lot of people I knew at the time took to reach into AD&D. There was no pathway past 3rd level, so once we had a grip on Basic, we just looked at Advanced. The Monster Manual was easy to convert to (Basic) D&D as the format was the same, ie AC, HD, Attacks/Damage and so on, and simply had expanded rules for alignment, certain magic, powers and Psionics. So it was easy to use it to become familiar with some of the expanded rules that would come in AD&D. It took a bunch of 11 year olds all of about 5 minutes to figure out how the 9-way alignment differed from the 3-way, and in the 40+ years since, no one has ever convinced me that our way was "wrong". I rarely played Moldvay, because it had the same problem as Holmes... it just stopped at higher level. It was only years later when Frank wrote the Companion rules that we dipped back in to play a "BEC" campaign, Never really got as far as Master rules, and had no real interest in the Immortals stuff, but having since read it all... it;s pretty good at creating a well structured progression path from 1st Level to Godhood,(if that's your thing...) and I still consider it the best written, most complete, bottom-to-top, level-based rpg system, where no period of progression is overlooked or broken.
Just dug out my old Holmes book and noticed that it HAS the 9-way grid, which is probably why we found AD&D easier... So that obviously changed when they wanted to make the Basic game its own line, and dropped the complexity of alignment. Weird how, over the years, I'd forgotten that we already used 9 way, and had convinced myself that all Basic had the 3 way...
bonus comment: Cheers 🥂 on the passing of Roy Haynes. Sitting in with the angels now. I was gonna bust your shoes for talking parsley, sage,rosemary, and thyme without playing Simon & Garfunkel, but a passing jazzman gets you a pass.
Ha! I feel like I've delved a little too deep into Paul Simon (I've already covered two of his albums) but that's would've been funny. But, as you noted, I think a tribute was due to Roy Haynes. Cheers, and thank you so much for sticking through the bonus content and then commenting on it.
Thank you all for this great video and great comments. It looks like Dad did originate the tinder box; I had thought he got it from Warlock the rules we were initiated with but I just looked up their equipment and they have only flint and steel. He must have remembered it from one of his favorite pulp authors. As you discovered Martin most of the good ideas in Basic came from the Greyhawk supplement and most of those I think we can thank Rob Kuntz for. I remember him being very nice to my Dad and I when we went to Gen Con and answering all my questions. I'm sorry Magic Missle got nerfed I think that was just my Dad writing as fast as he could. I always thought Magic Missiles should do at least 2 D6 damage.
It is indeed, and in pretty much every other edition of the game other than 4th, as I mentioned in the video. I started with B/X and was used to Magic Missile being an automatic hit. Thanks for watching and commenting.
Great video! I do have to point out a mistake you made though. PCs in OD&D were awarded XP for monsters at a rate of 100/Hit Die. See Men & Magic p. 18, the example of defeating the Troll and being awarded 700 XP.
By the lizards front claw there appears to be letters, though it’s just as likely to be shading. I’m seeing letters possibly, W. LINIL Or my eyes are squinting too much 😂
Firstly, this cracked me up because I originally read the first part of your comment like an oath or something... "By the lizard's front claw!" It took me a sec to figure it out! I enlarged a PDF of the picture as big as I could get it without losing the detail and sharpness and it's really hard to tell. It *could* be a name/signature, or it could just be shading on the rock. Thanks for trying! I appreciate it!
I got my Holmes set in the summer of 80, and it came with B1. Another argument for Holmes not being, race as class, is that the pregenerated characters/NPCs in the back of B1, has all races of Thieves. Fun fact, he used Eric J Holmes so not to be confused with the infamous porn star John Holmes.
On experience points, which Arneson invented, Arneson awarded based of goals, monsters dealt with, and not Gold. The only way Arneson would award EXP from gold was stated to be if you give it away. He felt it was its own award. Now his award was not just limited to KILLING the monster.... Gygax wanted it for Gold. A point of conversation between the two.
Oh my goodness, no! I can't believe I missed this! I see a trade paperback of the series came out this past May so I'm going to inquire about it when I visit my local comics shop today to pick up my weekly comics. Thanks for pointing this out to me - it looks right up my alley!
Love this video, as all your videos are great, but I would like to push back on a bit of shade you're throwing towards 5e/5e players. Full disclosure, 5e is my favorite edition of the game, BUT I think that it requires a bit of an old-school mentality to really get it to shine, because it relies on DM adjudication a lot more than 3/4e did. 5e *does* have encumbrance rules, and they are still useful for exactly the reasons why you like using them: they increase interaction with the imaginary world by forcing character choices about what they are bringing with them, thinking about pack animals, vehicles, etc. Base 5e encumbrance is more generous than previous editions, which does increase the "heroic" feel of the game, but I feel like a lot of item weights are increased/rounded to make the math a bit easier too, so it sort of balances out in the end. There is also a more "realistic" optional encumbrance rule that decreases character carrying capacity as well. Eschewing encumbrance rules is common in actual plays because doing math for how much you're carrying is kind of dead air, so actual play DMs and players likely have agreements (whether spoken or unspoken), not to stress the system by trying to carry absurd amounts of objects. However, the majority of my home games have used encumbrance. The campaign I'm currently playing not only uses encumbrance, but all food prices are 10x the PHB, and all food-creating spells only work 1/10th as well, which *really* makes you think about resource management. In short, 5e does not discourage resource management as a game play mechanic, though certain common formats that people are exposed to (actual plays, etc.) purposefully eschew that mechanic because of the format. Players having fun managing resources are alive and well in 2024.
Firstly, thank you so much for watching and commenting! I really appreciate it! And, I really appreciate this comment! I'm going to endeavor not to sound like one of those old curmudgeons who hates everything new, because that is *NOT* me! I can see how it sounded like I was painting every 5E player with a broad brush, which I didn't intend, as I also dislike it when someone paints all old-school gamers the game way. I like quite a bit of stuff from 5E and I actually use Advantage/Disadvantage in the B/X game I run for my daughter and her friends. Thanks for drawing this to my attention and I will certainly work more diligently to ensure a more balanced approach. I'm honestly just happy that everybody is gaming at all, no matter what edition they are playing, and in fact next semester I will be guest lecturing at my daughter's high school as a special guest for their Dungeons & Dragons class (which focuses on 5E)!
@@daddyrolleda1 I really appreciate that you try hard not to be one of those curmudgeons, and I'm glad that my comment didn't come across as too harsh! I honestly think a lot of 5e DMs could improve their game by learning the history of D&D to learn some of the base assumptions that are *still* baked into the written rules and unwritten traditions/etiquette for interacting with imaginary worlds. I think your channel is a *great* gateway into learning just that history, and I thank you for putting out such informative and thoughtful videos, and for being a delight to interact with in the comments. Happy holidays!
I think if it went up to 5 levels it would feel a little more worth it. 3 is almost pointless. The 90s "New Easy to Master" and "Classic Dungeon & Dragons Game" went to 5 levels.
@yourdagan, Holmes opined that if your intention was to play AD&D that you would be better off not playing his edition. He said so in his 1981 book ‘Fantasy Role Playing Games’. So the answer to your question is that, in a way, Holmes himself thought so.
A most enjoyable video!
Holmes wrote a book, ‘Fantasy Role Playing Games’ soon after his edition of D&D in which he further explains what RPGs are and how to play them. He also presages the anti-D&D movement/Satanic Panic of the 1980s, providing one of the earliest defences of the hobby.
80+ minutes on Holmes vs Original D&D! Let's Goooo!
(I'll be back with the bonus content.)
Holmes was my first edition (and I even still have box, but I think I lost the chits), and while I quickly went to AD&D, it'll always be one of my fondest...
Thank you for your channel! I only started playing DnD with 5e in 2021, but I’ve been playing video game RPGs for years. When I get into a hobby, I’m the kind of person that enjoys learning all about the history of the topic. I’d watch (listen) to all the DnD history videos I could, but there wasn’t a whole lot of options.
Your channel has been exactly what I’ve been searching for all this time. Been listening to videos for the past month and a half, and it’s great. Thank you for all the work and effort you’ve put into these. It’s appreciated!
Thank you so much! i really appreciate you saying that, and I'm so glad you found my channel and that you enjoy it. I'm like you in that when I get into something, I want to learn as much history as I can and I've done it across multiple subjects (comic book superheroes, wine, jazz... to name just a few).
Cheers!
Wow! This is awesome!! I was in middle school in 1977, and had a friend that came into school with these books. All the guys were like "what is this?" And we were off to the races. Coming back and seeing this again has been great! I wish!! Wish, wish, wish I would have kept all my stuff over the years. Thanks for sharing, keep up the great videos, this has been great.
Holmes set was my first D&D book way back in junior high. My gaming circle moved to AD&D fairly quickly.
Years later, as an experiment (and well before the inflated collector's pricing), my new group played through every edition available, 2E being the most recent.
I cannot imagine as a junior high student outside of the Lake Geneva & Twin Cities wargame circles playing the original rules without substantial difficulty.
I specifically, and the hobby in general, owe a great deal to Dr. Holmes and his edition of the game.
I have always consider the Blue Book as OD&D. I stand corrected. Thanks for the share!!
Glad to help! Thank you so much for watching and commenting!
This is going to be such a great and helpful series! Thank you for putting in the work to dig into these!
John Holmes wrote "Mahars of Pellucidar" which eas my favorite book as a kid (it gave me genuine nightmares, but I loved it). I ran a Blue Book D&D open invite hex crawl game set in Pellucidar on his birthday for a few years to celibrate all Mr Holmes did to shape my nerdom. Its been a while since I ran it, but it was a great tradition while it lasted. I really should revive it, or compile the notes somewhere.
Thanks!
Thank you so very much for your generous support of the channel! I truly appreciate it!
The Blue Book version was the first one that was mass produced and sold in the game/ model/ comic shops.
That fist batch, you had to reach out there to the Lake Geneva crew to have them print it local and send it out. Back then, you could reach out to the crew personally, if you had questions or additional stuff to throw at them.
No one I ever ran across called it just D&D when talking about the Holmes D&D box set, which as you rightly noted wasn't known as that. What everyone called it back then in Southern California gaming areas I ran in was "Basic D&D". I can't speak for other areas (states), but that's what I recall back in 1978-1982 until I joined the military. Holmes did a great job at making D&D much more accessible and of course removing some of the external requirements to play original D&D (Avalon Hill's Outdoor Survival & TSR's own Chainmail). Also, most of us started quickly ignoring the exp for gold/treasure, since it made leveling up too fast. Instead opting to give experience for defeating monsters, coming up with good ideas etc. Basically we decided that the reward was in the treasure gained and the items. Good overview, loving the trip down memory lane.
Edt: Btw, you were killing me with all the moving around of the books while reading them, then putting one down and snagging another one. Ye ole motion sickness and being old(er) cropping its ugly head.
Please cover more OD&D supplements. It's a relatively untouched section of D&D history.
I can definitely add that to the list! Are you thinking of deep dives into the Eldritch Wizardry, Blackmoor, etc. supplements? Or more like the Dungeon Geomorphs and Monster & Treasure assortments? For those, I do cover them (briefly) in my video on "D&D's Iconic Characters & Early Play Aids": ua-cam.com/video/g3cA1ev-JAU/v-deo.htmlsi=HaPa1I_FiH5jdUMS
@daddyrolleda1 I'm referring to Blackmoor, Eldritch Wizardry, etc., yeah.
Another great video! Thanks for sharing this, Holmes was my intro to D&D back in '82. One thing you left out though, from the Magic section...and it's a doozy! In Holmes a magic user can make a scroll for any spell he knows, starting at first level! This has a major impact on the game, and how low-level magic users are played. When my group "graduated" to AD&D in 83, we kept that rule because it was just so important.
Thanks again for doing this research on the older versions.
Was just recommended this channel by a friend and very excited to have found it!
I'm so glad to hear that! Please thank your friend for me. I really appreciate them sharing the channel with you. Cheers!
Holmes was the first edition I played and my dad was my DM. It was just the two of us playing because of where we lived. I think loved it as much as I did when we played. Even after moving to other editions, I still enjoyed the simplicity of it.
cool graphic comparison. I think another thing that makes the Holmes version (and later ones) easier to read is the shorter line length. 2 columns in 8.5" yields shorter line lenghts than 1 column on 5.5".
Generally you're more likely to use your place with longer line lengths.
Thanks for the video! I moved from (O)D&D to 1E AD&D as the 1E AD&D books were released but sometimes have played the various Basic versions when folks who were running them didn't mind me not having the exact rules. I've sat in here and there and let the DM tell me when I needed to know something that was slightly different. The groups I was part of for (O)D&D and later were mainly also wargamers or even wargamers first, sometime before D&D was even first published, like myself. I hear some folks say it was difficult to understand (O)D&D if they hadn't played wargames but we seemed to pick it up well enough, I guess. High Gygaxian has a charm all its own which I suppose I encountered when I was so young, it was seen more as a challenge than a barrier. Now it feels archaic in the best possible way, chock full of nostalgia. I always assumed Zenopus was derived from "Xenopus" which breaks down to "strange + foot" which I have heard pronounced as both "zee' · nuh · pus" and "zen' · nuh · pus" so you're probably fine. Holmes seemed to want to keep the Ability Scores fairly simple but still increase PCs' survivability and buff MUs. Resources were an important part of all early D&D and, IMO, is in any Old School RPG emulation. Alignment and encumbrance kinda got fine tuned for 1E AD&D. Initiative has always been an awkward aspect to D&D that the social contract seems to handle, in that once it is explained, players and DMs accept it and use it, no matter the edition. It works out well enough, as long as everyone is on the same page, and every edition offers ways to nerf it and to wheedle against it for advantage. It's kinda funny that way. Damage differences were a revelation and I am not sure if they first were adjusted to use all the dice more often or they wanted things more realistic and someone realized that since they had all these dice, this would be a place to get use out of them. Magic is in constant revision even during editions, it seems, and probably is often written vaguely enough that from table to table it feels different. I always loved sample dungeons and wandering monster tables! I'm also a fan of some nominal experience for the monsters and also experience for treasure (which can be great!). If you don't have a video next week, have a Happy Thanksgiving! Of course, you have a traveling bar case. Why wouldn't you? Perhaps someday you can find a liquor to mix with cranchovie juice (jk). Thanks again for the content!
I always appreciate getting comments from you! Thank you so much!
*I hear some folks say it was difficult to understand (O)D&D if they hadn't played wargames but we seemed to pick it up well enough, I guess.*
To be fair, I've always approached it as someone who learned via a later edition (Moldvay) but looking back, I find a lot of vagueness and inconsistencies and things that aren't defined that I marvel at how folks figured it out. But then again, I learned how to play Moldvay which, while I think being a better version of teaching you to play, is also a game that folks would look at today and say that it doesn't explain everything!
**High Gygaxian has a charm all its own which I suppose I encountered when I was so young, it was seen more as a challenge than a barrier. Now it feels archaic in the best possible way, chock full of nostalgia.*
I do very much agree with this. While I poke fun from time-to-time when re-reading, at the time, I found it charming or at least comforting. It made me feel that I was special, being able to read and understand it, and it certainly improved my vocabulary!
*I always assumed Zenopus was derived from "Xenopus" which breaks down to "strange + foot" which I have heard pronounced as both "zee' · nuh · pus" and "zen' · nuh · pus" so you're probably fine.*
Thanks!
*If you don't have a video next week, have a Happy Thanksgiving!*
I really appreciate that! Thank you so much!
*Of course, you have a traveling bar case. Why wouldn't you?*
I'll dig up some of my pics on FB and send to you. One belonged to my parents and I definitely remember it being in the house although they almost never used it. They were going to get rid of it a few decades ago and I asked if I could have it. A few years later, another friend gave me a vintage one that is almost identical, as he didn't know I already had one!
*Perhaps someday you can find a liquor to mix with cranchovie juice (jk).*
Yuck! But... I mean, it can't be worse than Malört!
Thanks again for your comments!
I remembering wondering “What about B1” back when I got my Moldvay box. It blew my mind that there was a Basic before mine.
Ha! I had a similar reaction and I remember being intrigued when I finally saw a Holmes Boxed Set a few years later, but also sadly dismissing it at the time because I was playing Advanced.
I was introduced to D&D late '78 when I saw a copy of Holmes and a laid out table with maps and minis at a friends house while living in the UK. I remember the gaming group I was introduced too, opening these little boxes before play began. They were using OD&D although I didn't really know it at the time. I bought the AD&D books as they were released. Maybe because I was 12 at the time, the differences in the editions had no real impact on how we played - which was all about dungeon exploring, rather than rules comparisons..
Fun Fact: while originally requiring an attack roll to hit the target in the initial release of 4th edition (and dealing dice damage to the target), Magic Missile was updated and errata'd with the release of the Essentials product line to no longer requiring an attack roll and dealing flat damage to the target instead.
Ha! I am glad to see this video. I just started watching and just have to say that this is the box set i first bought. I came into a bookstore and the owner was opening his stock of books, i was looking for the Hobbit. He showed me the newest D&D game Holmes , I could see on display the white box game and chainmail book. Well I tell you i had soo much fun with the basic set. You could just start playing so quickly. Really enjoyed it better than Advanced because of the playability. Well back to your video 👋🏻
Thanks for pausing to share this comment! I love hearing about how people got started in the hobby! I hope you enjoyed the rest of the video!
I started with Holmes and moved on to AD&D as it came out. Couldnt afford the original D&D books before that, or drive myself the 150 miles to the store that had them.
I definitely understand that - game stores near me where I grew up were non-existent, but our local toy stores and department stores often carried TSR stuff (but no other companies).
@@daddyrolleda1 Our first store came along some years later. It was actually a comic shop, but had a shelf where they sold games like D&D, T&T, the old zip-lock bag games including Star Fleet Battles, etc.
The best thing about Holmes was the introductory dungeon in the back. Honestly a much better intro to the game than B2, which I got in the box with it.
Ah, you had a later printing of Holmes then.
In case you didn't know, originally there was *no* module included but rather just Dungeon Geomorphs. Then when TSR started publishing modules finally in 1978 (starting with the Giants series), they included a copy of B1: In Search of the Unknown by Mike Carr in the box. However, due to the royalties deals they had, that meant Mike Carr got a percentage of every boxed set being sold due to the inclusion of his module, which meant Gary and Dave then got less money since they were now splitting their royalties with a third person. Gary then quickly wrote B2: Keep on the Borderlands and stuck that in the box so that he got a higher percentage of royalties on the boxed set sales!
My idea for Magic Missile is to make it work like Yondu's arrow. You enchant it to be a +1 magic arrow (or maybe the bonus scales with level) for one minute. In that time, the Magic-User can function as a decent archer with their magic arrow that they can move and recall psychically.
GREAT video. I'll probably have this playing in the background multiple times going forward. :-) One thing that I'd say is also worth mentioning is that Holmes Basic was the first set of D&D rules to totally ditch references to Chainmail. Classes no longer had "Fighting Capability" designations per level. Also with regard to mechanics the original Monster Manual is almost more of an OD&D supplement than AD&D since all of the monsters have AC's ranging from 9 on down instead of 10 like AD&D. I did not know about the updates Gary made to Holmes' original manuscript. Is there an online resource detailing the changes or even containing the full original draft? Thanks!
Hey. Long time lurker of your channel. Haven't been able to watch anything in the last few months, just can't find the time for the 1h+ long videos.
Great content as always! This is an exciting new series.
Can't wait for you to cover more Basic D&D editions. Just recently i was wondering about the differences between B/X and BECMI as I was joining a convention game using the latter but was my first time. Hopefully you'll get to it.
Awesome
Love this idea for a video.
I'm so glad to hear that! And thanks so much for your generous support of the channel!
53:20 keep preaching Reverend!
I think encumbrance is a nice thing to have in the game. It's just like if you watch videos of hikers packing on UA-cam and what they bring. They take into account weight and what they're bringing with them, especially if they're doing a long through hike of like the Pacific Crest Trail... That's not a 2-hour hike 🙂.
“Advanced” and “Basic” were the same terms we used at Campaign Headquarters in Norfolk, VA from 1980 to 1982.
Don't forget the UCSD group. They also published some of their stuff in 3pp supplements (even before the feist books).
Having started in 90/91 myself, with 2e (and still playing it now), and almost immediately jumping into Dark Sun when it came out, I can assure you that, RAW, 2e is all in on encumbrance and other forms of resource management. How much of that is applied at the table of course depends on the group, the DM, and what of 2e's virtually endless variety of supplemental/alternative systems are being used.
I used to listen to the public radio show "Jazz After Hours" back in the mid '80s and its odd you mentioned that line-up. Like a blast from the past foso...
I'll have to give this 1e GW giveaway a shot because thats a heavy duty blast from the past there. I wonder if its as beat up as I am?
Great Holmes coverage my man, thanks!
I remember Jazz After Hours!
If you watch the video on "The Classes of White Dwarf Magazine" you'll see a much more in-depth look at the state of the GW boxed set, which is *very* beat up. But I did include a copy of GW1 Legion of Gold in there to make it more enticing.
Great topic, and cast charm algorithm
The wasn't my introduction to D&D. The Basic rulebook that replaced it on the market in 1981 was. But this one does have an amazing sample dungeon that's still worth running today.
Yes, that sample dungeon gets a lot of praise from folks! Like you, I also started with Moldvay in 1981. Cheers, and thanks for watching and commenting!
21:15 The art style of that illustration reminds me of Diesel LaForce. To say it was definitively one of his would be pure speculation on my part, however.
I can see that being the case. Thanks for watching and commenting!
Zeroth is probably pulled from Asimov's laws of robotics. The Zeroth law
Yeah, I absolutely say zeroth. Probably because of Asimov but also… I don’t say ‘one’ edition and I don’t say ‘zero’ edition hehe
I still, in many ways, prefer the Holmes edition to all others. Especially for new or young players. When this hit the streets there was a perfect union of timing with the, then, recent release of the first The Hobbit 1978 movie by Bass/Rankin. That movie evoke a feeling very much in line with what Dr. Holmes was trying to create with his version.
Ooh, very true about them being released around the same time. That's a great connection to make! Thanks for watching and commenting!
Zenopus is an excellent example of a name where the author needs to provide a pronunciation guide for it, if they care to have others say it correctly. The two pronunciations you suggest miss out on the very realistic possibility the primary stress could be on the 'o', which immediately doubles our pronunciation options. I will agree that would be highly annoying were it to be the case, but there are languages that would do it nonetheless, our English-speaking sensibilities being irrelevant to the speakers of that language!
Love the is style of video. Also hoping for one with b/c compared to other editions
Thanks for letting me know! I appreciate it! And yes I intend to due a comparison of B/X to ODnD and Holmes.
5e uses the dexterity bonus for initiative and there might be a home rule somewhere where the higher dex goes first in an instance of a tie
Oh, that's interesting! My knowledge of 5E (and 4E) is very limited. Thanks!
Indeed, at my table a tied initiative goes to the higher dex.
Thank you for yet another dive into an interesting subject!
I'm so glad you are enjoying it! Thank you very much for watching and commenting. Cheers!
That was my first D&D set. We used the blue book to start and transitioned to AD&D.
I think that was very common back then! Very cool you started with Holmes. I started with Moldvay and didn't see the Holmes set until a few years later while at my friend's house.
You touched on this but Mr key element. When Gary Gygax wrote original D&D he was writing for a specific audience even outside of his immediate social circle. It's not that he figured he could tell it to somebody's face so much is that the target audience was miniature war gamers who already knew the things left unsaid.
When Holmes wrote the game, he wrote for an entirely different audience. Instead of filling in the gaps on miniature wargaming, he wrote a game that owed a lot more to the cooperative storytelling hobby that is D&D today.
D&D was a miniature war game that worked well enough as in an RPG for its origins to be neglected for decades.
Regarding variable weapon damage, One of the reference pages of B2 Keep on the Borderlands had a table offering this as an alternative optional rule. So while the concept isn’t included in the Holmes booklet it would have been included in the box sets that shipped with that module.
Interesting. We went straight from original D&D to AD&D. I'm familiar with later "basic" D&D (B/X, BECMI, Rules Cyclopedia) but not Holmes. Thanks for the overview.
You're welcome! I'm glad you enjoyed the video! I will be digging into the differences in Moldvay, Mentzer, etc.
While I started with Moldvay in late 1981, we quickly discovered AD&D was a thing and we played both simultaneously without realizing there was a difference. We were too excited to play to actually read the AD&D rules to notice how different they were!
You used to walk around with 1-10 HP. It was brutal to go into combat, as well...
Will you show how BECMI and Mentzer are different from both ODD and ADD, as I only realized in the last year that they were different. I started playing in '81 I think and I never new they were different.
I intend to cover both Moldvay and Mentzer and discuss how they are different from each other as well as from both OD&D and from AD&D. It will make the series a little complicated but I think it's worth covering.
Thank you so much for watching and commenting!
4th edition had a five point alignment system. Lawful good, good, unaligned, evil and chaotic evil.
Oh wow - totally forgot about that! I only played 4E maybe twice right when it came out and don't remember much about it. Thanks for the reminder! Yet one other thing it has in common with Holmes (along with "to hit" for magic missile, although my understanding is they edited that rule later on).
@@daddyrolleda1 I never got to play or run 4th edition. I want to give it a try someday so that I can at least have tried all the major editions.
I had a blast one time playing it for a one-shot that a friend ran. He really leaned into all the unique combinations one could have to take advantage of the tactical nature of the game when he designed our characters for us (he assigned them to us). I think I talked about it on the channel before, but he gave me a character sheet that said, "You are the right head of a pygmy Ettin." Another player was the left head. We had the same physical stats, but different mental stats and different classes (I was a Warlord with a "high" INT of 10, and he was a Fighter with an INT of 6). We had to split our movement in half and were high enough level that I think we each got an action (which could be an attack). I had some powers that basically amounted to intimidating someone into doing what I wanted by force and physical violence. So once I figured it out, my main action each turn would be to take my half move to get into position as much as possible, and then hit the other head and give it a command like, "Go right and attack that guy." The other player leaned into his low INT and would sometimes move the wrong way because he didn't know left from right.
Hilarity ensued.
@@daddyrolleda1 Sounds like that was a blast. Back in the day when the 2nd ed player's guide to humanoids came out my friend and little brother played a duo of a minotaur and a goblin. The goblin sat in a harness on the minotaur's shoulders and used his horns to support a heavy crossbow. We called the team Master Crossbow. Lol
Such a great video with great comprehensive information! My introduction to the franchise was the "Introduction to Advanced Dungeons & Dragons" box set that I got at a flea market in the mid 90s when I was real little. Picked up the 3rd edition starter boxes as I got older, but didn't really get much opportunity to play as my friends weren't into it. Skipped 4th. Got back into the hobby with the release of 5th edition and found groups to play with. Now really interested in visiting older versions and seeing the differences and learning the history. Been collecting old starter boxes as well. A video like this is exactly what I was looking for. I'm currently trying to navigate and learn the differences around the split of Holmes Basic to Moldvay, AD&D, and BECMI.
I do have a question for you... would you consider the Holmes set the first "AD&D starter set"? It seems that the first actual AD&D starter box are the First Quest and Introduction to AD&D box sets, but those were for 2nd Edition.
I'm trying to put together a "history of D&D display" on my wall of starter boxes that forms a sort of sideways "H" (capital "I", but text doesn't show that well here). The middle of the wall has floating shelves going vertical that holds the OD&D box (currently empty shelf), then above it is Holmes box, above that is Moldvay box, and above that is the "New Easy To Master D&D" (black box) set. To the right of the Moldvay box is a horizontal shelf that holds that BECMI boxes. To the left of the Moldvay box is a horizontal shelf that holds First Quest, Intro To AD&D, The Complete AD&D Starter Set (yellow box). To the left and below the OD&D shelf is a horizontal shelf that holds the 3rd Ed "D&D Adventure Game" box, 3.5 "D&D Basic Set" (black dragon), 3.5 "D&D Basic Set" (blue dragon), and 4th Ed Starter Set. Then to the right and below the OD&D shelf is a horizontal shelf for the various 5th edition starter sets. I'm trying to go with a "it started here in the middle, moved up to Holmes, then broke off upwards for B/X, to the right for BECMI, and to the left for AD&D, and then counter-clockwise for 3rd, 4th, and 5th.
Thank you so much! So glad to have you here and I'm glad you're finding my videos interesting and informative! Really quickly before answering your questions, make sure to check out my "History of D&D Editions" video. It's one of my earliest so the quality is a little different (in terms of recording, title slides, etc.) but in ~20 minutes I take you through every edition of D&D from 1974 - 2020. (I did not include Chainmail or Blackmoor, as those are *not* named Dungeons & Dragons, although both are progenitors).
Holmes is an interesting case because it really was designed to be a concise introduction to Original D&D but to direct people to Advanced D&D. However, rules-wise, it sits in its own unique position as it has rule differences that are not found in either Original or Advanced D&D! I think for your purposes if you wanted to use it as an example of an "Advanced D&D Starter Set," I don't think most folks would argue with you.
That sounds like a very fun project! I wish you luck and I can't wait to see a picture when it's completed!
When I was young and these were both out, the differences were minor as far as my friends and I were concerned.
So what was the point of even keeping Charisma in the game? Was it a prerequisite for certain abilities or spells?
"A character of charisma below 13 can not hire more than 5 followers, and their loyalty will be luke-warm at best - that us, if the fighting gets hot there is a good probability they will run away." E J Holmes
A lot of people are generally quick to point out that Holmes Basic seems to have the most in common with OD&D when you place it next to everything that came before and after. Zenopus Archives is right to point out that Dr. Holmes' original manuscript points players and DMs in the direction of the original D&D box set for further level advancement, which was changed by TSR to AD&D instead.
I started playing in 1980 and think of White Box as a prototype rather than a finished product and Holmes as a beta. AD&D and Moldvay were the first truly finished, fully playable products that didn't require extensive game experience or reference to other publications. In some ways we've come full circle with the release of ShadowDark which also requires extensive RPG experience and reference to other publications (e.g. nowhere in ShadowDark does it explain how Hit Points are calculated and it lacks any useful description of monster behavior or environments. It assumes you've been playing D&D 5e for years).
I'm told Basic is the only early edition to actually teach you how to play.
I have been playing 0E and retroclones but this might actually get me to play B/X and siblings.
Very cool! There's a retroclone of Holmes called "BlueHolme" which is quite popular with that crowd. The "Journeymanne Rules" for it take characters all the way to 20th level even though Holmes stopped at 3rd: www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/208800/blueholme-journeymanne-rules
Thanks for watching and commenting!
I started the opposite way, with BX, now playind OD&D.
I also started with B/X and am still running it for my daughter and her friends!
The Zed Edition
I like it!
The Holmes Basic wasn't initially envisioned as a seperate system. It was more like how many games these days have a "Starter Set" (Big Example, Call of Cthulhu) where you get a set of basic game system rules, and stripped down character options to lead into a more complete "Full Version" to allow people who hadn't come through the wargame/OD&D pathway, to move on to the AD&D system. The Starter Rules are completelyplayable, but you ultiamtely reach a point where you wantmore...so you buy the full version.
That was the route I and a lot of people I knew at the time took to reach into AD&D. There was no pathway past 3rd level, so once we had a grip on Basic, we just looked at Advanced. The Monster Manual was easy to convert to (Basic) D&D as the format was the same, ie AC, HD, Attacks/Damage and so on, and simply had expanded rules for alignment, certain magic, powers and Psionics. So it was easy to use it to become familiar with some of the expanded rules that would come in AD&D. It took a bunch of 11 year olds all of about 5 minutes to figure out how the 9-way alignment differed from the 3-way, and in the 40+ years since, no one has ever convinced me that our way was "wrong".
I rarely played Moldvay, because it had the same problem as Holmes... it just stopped at higher level. It was only years later when Frank wrote the Companion rules that we dipped back in to play a "BEC" campaign, Never really got as far as Master rules, and had no real interest in the Immortals stuff, but having since read it all... it;s pretty good at creating a well structured progression path from 1st Level to Godhood,(if that's your thing...) and I still consider it the best written, most complete, bottom-to-top, level-based rpg system, where no period of progression is overlooked or broken.
Just dug out my old Holmes book and noticed that it HAS the 9-way grid, which is probably why we found AD&D easier... So that obviously changed when they wanted to make the Basic game its own line, and dropped the complexity of alignment.
Weird how, over the years, I'd forgotten that we already used 9 way, and had convinced myself that all Basic had the 3 way...
bonus comment: Cheers 🥂 on the passing of Roy Haynes. Sitting in with the angels now.
I was gonna bust your shoes for talking parsley, sage,rosemary, and thyme without playing Simon & Garfunkel, but a passing jazzman gets you a pass.
Ha! I feel like I've delved a little too deep into Paul Simon (I've already covered two of his albums) but that's would've been funny. But, as you noted, I think a tribute was due to Roy Haynes.
Cheers, and thank you so much for sticking through the bonus content and then commenting on it.
This is an amazing series!!
Glad you enjoyed the debut episode!
Thank you all for this great video and great comments. It looks like Dad did originate the tinder box; I had thought he got it from Warlock the rules we were initiated with but I just looked up their equipment and they have only flint and steel. He must have remembered it from one of his favorite pulp authors. As you discovered Martin most of the good ideas in Basic came from the Greyhawk supplement and most of those I think we can thank Rob Kuntz for. I remember him being very nice to my Dad and I when we went to Gen Con and answering all my questions. I'm sorry Magic Missle got nerfed I think that was just my Dad writing as fast as he could. I always thought Magic Missiles should do at least 2 D6 damage.
I heard Gygax intentionally used that kind of language to help improve the reader's skills.
I certainly helped me in junior high and high school (in terms of language!).
Magic Missile is an automatic hit in B/X edition.
It is indeed, and in pretty much every other edition of the game other than 4th, as I mentioned in the video. I started with B/X and was used to Magic Missile being an automatic hit.
Thanks for watching and commenting.
Great video! I do have to point out a mistake you made though. PCs in OD&D were awarded XP for monsters at a rate of 100/Hit Die. See Men & Magic p. 18, the example of defeating the Troll and being awarded 700 XP.
By the lizards front claw there appears to be letters, though it’s just as likely to be shading.
I’m seeing letters possibly, W. LINIL
Or my eyes are squinting too much 😂
Firstly, this cracked me up because I originally read the first part of your comment like an oath or something... "By the lizard's front claw!"
It took me a sec to figure it out! I enlarged a PDF of the picture as big as I could get it without losing the detail and sharpness and it's really hard to tell. It *could* be a name/signature, or it could just be shading on the rock.
Thanks for trying! I appreciate it!
@ lol yeah I see that.
Reminds me of Thrud the Barbarian’s exclamation, “By the Sacred Jockstrap of Robert E. Howard!”. Something like that
I got my Holmes set in the summer of 80, and it came with B1. Another argument for Holmes not being, race as class, is that the pregenerated characters/NPCs in the back of B1, has all races of Thieves.
Fun fact, he used Eric J Holmes so not to be confused with the infamous porn star John Holmes.
On experience points, which Arneson invented, Arneson awarded based of goals, monsters dealt with, and not Gold. The only way Arneson would award EXP from gold was stated to be if you give it away. He felt it was its own award. Now his award was not just limited to KILLING the monster....
Gygax wanted it for Gold. A point of conversation between the two.
Did you read Deep Cuts from Image Comics?
Oh my goodness, no! I can't believe I missed this! I see a trade paperback of the series came out this past May so I'm going to inquire about it when I visit my local comics shop today to pick up my weekly comics. Thanks for pointing this out to me - it looks right up my alley!
Love this video, as all your videos are great, but I would like to push back on a bit of shade you're throwing towards 5e/5e players. Full disclosure, 5e is my favorite edition of the game, BUT I think that it requires a bit of an old-school mentality to really get it to shine, because it relies on DM adjudication a lot more than 3/4e did.
5e *does* have encumbrance rules, and they are still useful for exactly the reasons why you like using them: they increase interaction with the imaginary world by forcing character choices about what they are bringing with them, thinking about pack animals, vehicles, etc.
Base 5e encumbrance is more generous than previous editions, which does increase the "heroic" feel of the game, but I feel like a lot of item weights are increased/rounded to make the math a bit easier too, so it sort of balances out in the end. There is also a more "realistic" optional encumbrance rule that decreases character carrying capacity as well.
Eschewing encumbrance rules is common in actual plays because doing math for how much you're carrying is kind of dead air, so actual play DMs and players likely have agreements (whether spoken or unspoken), not to stress the system by trying to carry absurd amounts of objects.
However, the majority of my home games have used encumbrance. The campaign I'm currently playing not only uses encumbrance, but all food prices are 10x the PHB, and all food-creating spells only work 1/10th as well, which *really* makes you think about resource management.
In short, 5e does not discourage resource management as a game play mechanic, though certain common formats that people are exposed to (actual plays, etc.) purposefully eschew that mechanic because of the format. Players having fun managing resources are alive and well in 2024.
Firstly, thank you so much for watching and commenting! I really appreciate it!
And, I really appreciate this comment! I'm going to endeavor not to sound like one of those old curmudgeons who hates everything new, because that is *NOT* me! I can see how it sounded like I was painting every 5E player with a broad brush, which I didn't intend, as I also dislike it when someone paints all old-school gamers the game way. I like quite a bit of stuff from 5E and I actually use Advantage/Disadvantage in the B/X game I run for my daughter and her friends.
Thanks for drawing this to my attention and I will certainly work more diligently to ensure a more balanced approach. I'm honestly just happy that everybody is gaming at all, no matter what edition they are playing, and in fact next semester I will be guest lecturing at my daughter's high school as a special guest for their Dungeons & Dragons class (which focuses on 5E)!
@@daddyrolleda1 I really appreciate that you try hard not to be one of those curmudgeons, and I'm glad that my comment didn't come across as too harsh! I honestly think a lot of 5e DMs could improve their game by learning the history of D&D to learn some of the base assumptions that are *still* baked into the written rules and unwritten traditions/etiquette for interacting with imaginary worlds.
I think your channel is a *great* gateway into learning just that history, and I thank you for putting out such informative and thoughtful videos, and for being a delight to interact with in the comments.
Happy holidays!
Real gamers play using chain mail rules.
Do you think only being up to 3 Levels was a mistake?
I think if it went up to 5 levels it would feel a little more worth it. 3 is almost pointless. The 90s "New Easy to Master" and "Classic Dungeon & Dragons Game" went to 5 levels.
@yourdagan, Holmes opined that if your intention was to play AD&D that you would be better off not playing his edition. He said so in his 1981 book ‘Fantasy Role Playing Games’. So the answer to your question is that, in a way, Holmes himself thought so.
Thanks!
I am overwhelmed - thank you SO MUCH for your very generous support! This is amazing and I truly appreciate it! Thank you!!!