A most enjoyable video! Holmes wrote a book, ‘Fantasy Role Playing Games’ soon after his edition of D&D in which he further explains what RPGs are and how to play them. He also presages the anti-D&D movement/Satanic Panic of the 1980s, providing one of the earliest defences of the hobby.
Holmes was my first edition (and I even still have box, but I think I lost the chits), and while I quickly went to AD&D, it'll always be one of my fondest...
Holmes set was my first D&D book way back in junior high. My gaming circle moved to AD&D fairly quickly. Years later, as an experiment (and well before the inflated collector's pricing), my new group played through every edition available, 2E being the most recent. I cannot imagine as a junior high student outside of the Lake Geneva & Twin Cities wargame circles playing the original rules without substantial difficulty. I specifically, and the hobby in general, owe a great deal to Dr. Holmes and his edition of the game.
No one I ever ran across called it just D&D when talking about the Holmes D&D box set, which as you rightly noted wasn't known as that. What everyone called it back then in Southern California gaming areas I ran in was "Basic D&D". I can't speak for other areas (states), but that's what I recall back in 1978-1982 until I joined the military. Holmes did a great job at making D&D much more accessible and of course removing some of the external requirements to play original D&D (Avalon Hill's Outdoor Survival & TSR's own Chainmail). Also, most of us started quickly ignoring the exp for gold/treasure, since it made leveling up too fast. Instead opting to give experience for defeating monsters, coming up with good ideas etc. Basically we decided that the reward was in the treasure gained and the items. Good overview, loving the trip down memory lane. Edt: Btw, you were killing me with all the moving around of the books while reading them, then putting one down and snagging another one. Ye ole motion sickness and being old(er) cropping its ugly head.
I can definitely add that to the list! Are you thinking of deep dives into the Eldritch Wizardry, Blackmoor, etc. supplements? Or more like the Dungeon Geomorphs and Monster & Treasure assortments? For those, I do cover them (briefly) in my video on "D&D's Iconic Characters & Early Play Aids": ua-cam.com/video/g3cA1ev-JAU/v-deo.htmlsi=HaPa1I_FiH5jdUMS
Thank you for your channel! I only started playing DnD with 5e in 2021, but I’ve been playing video game RPGs for years. When I get into a hobby, I’m the kind of person that enjoys learning all about the history of the topic. I’d watch (listen) to all the DnD history videos I could, but there wasn’t a whole lot of options. Your channel has been exactly what I’ve been searching for all this time. Been listening to videos for the past month and a half, and it’s great. Thank you for all the work and effort you’ve put into these. It’s appreciated!
Thank you so much! i really appreciate you saying that, and I'm so glad you found my channel and that you enjoy it. I'm like you in that when I get into something, I want to learn as much history as I can and I've done it across multiple subjects (comic book superheroes, wine, jazz... to name just a few). Cheers!
Ha! I am glad to see this video. I just started watching and just have to say that this is the box set i first bought. I came into a bookstore and the owner was opening his stock of books, i was looking for the Hobbit. He showed me the newest D&D game Holmes , I could see on display the white box game and chainmail book. Well I tell you i had soo much fun with the basic set. You could just start playing so quickly. Really enjoyed it better than Advanced because of the playability. Well back to your video 👋🏻
cool graphic comparison. I think another thing that makes the Holmes version (and later ones) easier to read is the shorter line length. 2 columns in 8.5" yields shorter line lenghts than 1 column on 5.5". Generally you're more likely to use your place with longer line lengths.
Thanks for the video! I moved from (O)D&D to 1E AD&D as the 1E AD&D books were released but sometimes have played the various Basic versions when folks who were running them didn't mind me not having the exact rules. I've sat in here and there and let the DM tell me when I needed to know something that was slightly different. The groups I was part of for (O)D&D and later were mainly also wargamers or even wargamers first, sometime before D&D was even first published, like myself. I hear some folks say it was difficult to understand (O)D&D if they hadn't played wargames but we seemed to pick it up well enough, I guess. High Gygaxian has a charm all its own which I suppose I encountered when I was so young, it was seen more as a challenge than a barrier. Now it feels archaic in the best possible way, chock full of nostalgia. I always assumed Zenopus was derived from "Xenopus" which breaks down to "strange + foot" which I have heard pronounced as both "zee' · nuh · pus" and "zen' · nuh · pus" so you're probably fine. Holmes seemed to want to keep the Ability Scores fairly simple but still increase PCs' survivability and buff MUs. Resources were an important part of all early D&D and, IMO, is in any Old School RPG emulation. Alignment and encumbrance kinda got fine tuned for 1E AD&D. Initiative has always been an awkward aspect to D&D that the social contract seems to handle, in that once it is explained, players and DMs accept it and use it, no matter the edition. It works out well enough, as long as everyone is on the same page, and every edition offers ways to nerf it and to wheedle against it for advantage. It's kinda funny that way. Damage differences were a revelation and I am not sure if they first were adjusted to use all the dice more often or they wanted things more realistic and someone realized that since they had all these dice, this would be a place to get use out of them. Magic is in constant revision even during editions, it seems, and probably is often written vaguely enough that from table to table it feels different. I always loved sample dungeons and wandering monster tables! I'm also a fan of some nominal experience for the monsters and also experience for treasure (which can be great!). If you don't have a video next week, have a Happy Thanksgiving! Of course, you have a traveling bar case. Why wouldn't you? Perhaps someday you can find a liquor to mix with cranchovie juice (jk). Thanks again for the content!
I always appreciate getting comments from you! Thank you so much! *I hear some folks say it was difficult to understand (O)D&D if they hadn't played wargames but we seemed to pick it up well enough, I guess.* To be fair, I've always approached it as someone who learned via a later edition (Moldvay) but looking back, I find a lot of vagueness and inconsistencies and things that aren't defined that I marvel at how folks figured it out. But then again, I learned how to play Moldvay which, while I think being a better version of teaching you to play, is also a game that folks would look at today and say that it doesn't explain everything! **High Gygaxian has a charm all its own which I suppose I encountered when I was so young, it was seen more as a challenge than a barrier. Now it feels archaic in the best possible way, chock full of nostalgia.* I do very much agree with this. While I poke fun from time-to-time when re-reading, at the time, I found it charming or at least comforting. It made me feel that I was special, being able to read and understand it, and it certainly improved my vocabulary! *I always assumed Zenopus was derived from "Xenopus" which breaks down to "strange + foot" which I have heard pronounced as both "zee' · nuh · pus" and "zen' · nuh · pus" so you're probably fine.* Thanks! *If you don't have a video next week, have a Happy Thanksgiving!* I really appreciate that! Thank you so much! *Of course, you have a traveling bar case. Why wouldn't you?* I'll dig up some of my pics on FB and send to you. One belonged to my parents and I definitely remember it being in the house although they almost never used it. They were going to get rid of it a few decades ago and I asked if I could have it. A few years later, another friend gave me a vintage one that is almost identical, as he didn't know I already had one! *Perhaps someday you can find a liquor to mix with cranchovie juice (jk).* Yuck! But... I mean, it can't be worse than Malört! Thanks again for your comments!
The Blue Book version was the first one that was mass produced and sold in the game/ model/ comic shops. That fist batch, you had to reach out there to the Lake Geneva crew to have them print it local and send it out. Back then, you could reach out to the crew personally, if you had questions or additional stuff to throw at them.
I used to listen to the public radio show "Jazz After Hours" back in the mid '80s and its odd you mentioned that line-up. Like a blast from the past foso... I'll have to give this 1e GW giveaway a shot because thats a heavy duty blast from the past there. I wonder if its as beat up as I am? Great Holmes coverage my man, thanks!
I remember Jazz After Hours! If you watch the video on "The Classes of White Dwarf Magazine" you'll see a much more in-depth look at the state of the GW boxed set, which is *very* beat up. But I did include a copy of GW1 Legion of Gold in there to make it more enticing.
I was introduced to D&D late '78 when I saw a copy of Holmes and a laid out table with maps and minis at a friends house while living in the UK. I remember the gaming group I was introduced too, opening these little boxes before play began. They were using OD&D although I didn't really know it at the time. I bought the AD&D books as they were released. Maybe because I was 12 at the time, the differences in the editions had no real impact on how we played - which was all about dungeon exploring, rather than rules comparisons..
My idea for Magic Missile is to make it work like Yondu's arrow. You enchant it to be a +1 magic arrow (or maybe the bonus scales with level) for one minute. In that time, the Magic-User can function as a decent archer with their magic arrow that they can move and recall psychically.
The best thing about Holmes was the introductory dungeon in the back. Honestly a much better intro to the game than B2, which I got in the box with it.
Ah, you had a later printing of Holmes then. In case you didn't know, originally there was *no* module included but rather just Dungeon Geomorphs. Then when TSR started publishing modules finally in 1978 (starting with the Giants series), they included a copy of B1: In Search of the Unknown by Mike Carr in the box. However, due to the royalties deals they had, that meant Mike Carr got a percentage of every boxed set being sold due to the inclusion of his module, which meant Gary and Dave then got less money since they were now splitting their royalties with a third person. Gary then quickly wrote B2: Keep on the Borderlands and stuck that in the box so that he got a higher percentage of royalties on the boxed set sales!
I started with Holmes and moved on to AD&D as it came out. Couldnt afford the original D&D books before that, or drive myself the 150 miles to the store that had them.
I definitely understand that - game stores near me where I grew up were non-existent, but our local toy stores and department stores often carried TSR stuff (but no other companies).
@@daddyrolleda1 Our first store came along some years later. It was actually a comic shop, but had a shelf where they sold games like D&D, T&T, the old zip-lock bag games including Star Fleet Battles, etc.
Don't forget the UCSD group. They also published some of their stuff in 3pp supplements (even before the feist books). Having started in 90/91 myself, with 2e (and still playing it now), and almost immediately jumping into Dark Sun when it came out, I can assure you that, RAW, 2e is all in on encumbrance and other forms of resource management. How much of that is applied at the table of course depends on the group, the DM, and what of 2e's virtually endless variety of supplemental/alternative systems are being used.
I still, in many ways, prefer the Holmes edition to all others. Especially for new or young players. When this hit the streets there was a perfect union of timing with the, then, recent release of the first The Hobbit 1978 movie by Bass/Rankin. That movie evoke a feeling very much in line with what Dr. Holmes was trying to create with his version.
John Holmes wrote "Mahars of Pellucidar" which eas my favorite book as a kid (it gave me genuine nightmares, but I loved it). I ran a Blue Book D&D open invite hex crawl game set in Pellucidar on his birthday for a few years to celibrate all Mr Holmes did to shape my nerdom. Its been a while since I ran it, but it was a great tradition while it lasted. I really should revive it, or compile the notes somewhere.
53:20 keep preaching Reverend! I think encumbrance is a nice thing to have in the game. It's just like if you watch videos of hikers packing on UA-cam and what they bring. They take into account weight and what they're bringing with them, especially if they're doing a long through hike of like the Pacific Crest Trail... That's not a 2-hour hike 🙂.
Very cool! There's a retroclone of Holmes called "BlueHolme" which is quite popular with that crowd. The "Journeymanne Rules" for it take characters all the way to 20th level even though Holmes stopped at 3rd: www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/208800/blueholme-journeymanne-rules Thanks for watching and commenting!
Fun Fact: while originally requiring an attack roll to hit the target in the initial release of 4th edition (and dealing dice damage to the target), Magic Missile was updated and errata'd with the release of the Essentials product line to no longer requiring an attack roll and dealing flat damage to the target instead.
Interesting. We went straight from original D&D to AD&D. I'm familiar with later "basic" D&D (B/X, BECMI, Rules Cyclopedia) but not Holmes. Thanks for the overview.
You're welcome! I'm glad you enjoyed the video! I will be digging into the differences in Moldvay, Mentzer, etc. While I started with Moldvay in late 1981, we quickly discovered AD&D was a thing and we played both simultaneously without realizing there was a difference. We were too excited to play to actually read the AD&D rules to notice how different they were!
I think that was very common back then! Very cool you started with Holmes. I started with Moldvay and didn't see the Holmes set until a few years later while at my friend's house.
I started playing in 1980 and think of White Box as a prototype rather than a finished product and Holmes as a beta. AD&D and Moldvay were the first truly finished, fully playable products that didn't require extensive game experience or reference to other publications. In some ways we've come full circle with the release of ShadowDark which also requires extensive RPG experience and reference to other publications (e.g. nowhere in ShadowDark does it explain how Hit Points are calculated and it lacks any useful description of monster behavior or environments. It assumes you've been playing D&D 5e for years).
GREAT video. I'll probably have this playing in the background multiple times going forward. :-) One thing that I'd say is also worth mentioning is that Holmes Basic was the first set of D&D rules to totally ditch references to Chainmail. Classes no longer had "Fighting Capability" designations per level. Also with regard to mechanics the original Monster Manual is almost more of an OD&D supplement than AD&D since all of the monsters have AC's ranging from 9 on down instead of 10 like AD&D. I did not know about the updates Gary made to Holmes' original manuscript. Is there an online resource detailing the changes or even containing the full original draft? Thanks!
Regarding variable weapon damage, One of the reference pages of B2 Keep on the Borderlands had a table offering this as an alternative optional rule. So while the concept isn’t included in the Holmes booklet it would have been included in the box sets that shipped with that module.
Oh wow - totally forgot about that! I only played 4E maybe twice right when it came out and don't remember much about it. Thanks for the reminder! Yet one other thing it has in common with Holmes (along with "to hit" for magic missile, although my understanding is they edited that rule later on).
I had a blast one time playing it for a one-shot that a friend ran. He really leaned into all the unique combinations one could have to take advantage of the tactical nature of the game when he designed our characters for us (he assigned them to us). I think I talked about it on the channel before, but he gave me a character sheet that said, "You are the right head of a pygmy Ettin." Another player was the left head. We had the same physical stats, but different mental stats and different classes (I was a Warlord with a "high" INT of 10, and he was a Fighter with an INT of 6). We had to split our movement in half and were high enough level that I think we each got an action (which could be an attack). I had some powers that basically amounted to intimidating someone into doing what I wanted by force and physical violence. So once I figured it out, my main action each turn would be to take my half move to get into position as much as possible, and then hit the other head and give it a command like, "Go right and attack that guy." The other player leaned into his low INT and would sometimes move the wrong way because he didn't know left from right. Hilarity ensued.
@@daddyrolleda1 Sounds like that was a blast. Back in the day when the 2nd ed player's guide to humanoids came out my friend and little brother played a duo of a minotaur and a goblin. The goblin sat in a harness on the minotaur's shoulders and used his horns to support a heavy crossbow. We called the team Master Crossbow. Lol
Great video! I do have to point out a mistake you made though. PCs in OD&D were awarded XP for monsters at a rate of 100/Hit Die. See Men & Magic p. 18, the example of defeating the Troll and being awarded 700 XP.
The Holmes Basic wasn't initially envisioned as a seperate system. It was more like how many games these days have a "Starter Set" (Big Example, Call of Cthulhu) where you get a set of basic game system rules, and stripped down character options to lead into a more complete "Full Version" to allow people who hadn't come through the wargame/OD&D pathway, to move on to the AD&D system. The Starter Rules are completelyplayable, but you ultiamtely reach a point where you wantmore...so you buy the full version. That was the route I and a lot of people I knew at the time took to reach into AD&D. There was no pathway past 3rd level, so once we had a grip on Basic, we just looked at Advanced. The Monster Manual was easy to convert to (Basic) D&D as the format was the same, ie AC, HD, Attacks/Damage and so on, and simply had expanded rules for alignment, certain magic, powers and Psionics. So it was easy to use it to become familiar with some of the expanded rules that would come in AD&D. It took a bunch of 11 year olds all of about 5 minutes to figure out how the 9-way alignment differed from the 3-way, and in the 40+ years since, no one has ever convinced me that our way was "wrong". I rarely played Moldvay, because it had the same problem as Holmes... it just stopped at higher level. It was only years later when Frank wrote the Companion rules that we dipped back in to play a "BEC" campaign, Never really got as far as Master rules, and had no real interest in the Immortals stuff, but having since read it all... it;s pretty good at creating a well structured progression path from 1st Level to Godhood,(if that's your thing...) and I still consider it the best written, most complete, bottom-to-top, level-based rpg system, where no period of progression is overlooked or broken.
Just dug out my old Holmes book and noticed that it HAS the 9-way grid, which is probably why we found AD&D easier... So that obviously changed when they wanted to make the Basic game its own line, and dropped the complexity of alignment. Weird how, over the years, I'd forgotten that we already used 9 way, and had convinced myself that all Basic had the 3 way...
By the lizards front claw there appears to be letters, though it’s just as likely to be shading. I’m seeing letters possibly, W. LINIL Or my eyes are squinting too much 😂
Firstly, this cracked me up because I originally read the first part of your comment like an oath or something... "By the lizard's front claw!" It took me a sec to figure it out! I enlarged a PDF of the picture as big as I could get it without losing the detail and sharpness and it's really hard to tell. It *could* be a name/signature, or it could just be shading on the rock. Thanks for trying! I appreciate it!
Will you show how BECMI and Mentzer are different from both ODD and ADD, as I only realized in the last year that they were different. I started playing in '81 I think and I never new they were different.
I intend to cover both Moldvay and Mentzer and discuss how they are different from each other as well as from both OD&D and from AD&D. It will make the series a little complicated but I think it's worth covering. Thank you so much for watching and commenting!
Zenopus is an excellent example of a name where the author needs to provide a pronunciation guide for it, if they care to have others say it correctly. The two pronunciations you suggest miss out on the very realistic possibility the primary stress could be on the 'o', which immediately doubles our pronunciation options. I will agree that would be highly annoying were it to be the case, but there are languages that would do it nonetheless, our English-speaking sensibilities being irrelevant to the speakers of that language!
It is indeed, and in pretty much every other edition of the game other than 4th, as I mentioned in the video. I started with B/X and was used to Magic Missile being an automatic hit. Thanks for watching and commenting.
bonus comment: Cheers 🥂 on the passing of Roy Haynes. Sitting in with the angels now. I was gonna bust your shoes for talking parsley, sage,rosemary, and thyme without playing Simon & Garfunkel, but a passing jazzman gets you a pass.
Ha! I feel like I've delved a little too deep into Paul Simon (I've already covered two of his albums) but that's would've been funny. But, as you noted, I think a tribute was due to Roy Haynes. Cheers, and thank you so much for sticking through the bonus content and then commenting on it.
Oh my goodness, no! I can't believe I missed this! I see a trade paperback of the series came out this past May so I'm going to inquire about it when I visit my local comics shop today to pick up my weekly comics. Thanks for pointing this out to me - it looks right up my alley!
I think if it went up to 5 levels it would feel a little more worth it. 3 is almost pointless. The 90s "New Easy to Master" and "Classic Dungeon & Dragons Game" went to 5 levels.
@yourdagan, Holmes opined that if your intention was to play AD&D that you would be better off not playing his edition. He said so in his 1981 book ‘Fantasy Role Playing Games’. So the answer to your question is that, in a way, Holmes himself thought so.
80+ minutes on Holmes vs Original D&D! Let's Goooo!
(I'll be back with the bonus content.)
A most enjoyable video!
Holmes wrote a book, ‘Fantasy Role Playing Games’ soon after his edition of D&D in which he further explains what RPGs are and how to play them. He also presages the anti-D&D movement/Satanic Panic of the 1980s, providing one of the earliest defences of the hobby.
Holmes was my first edition (and I even still have box, but I think I lost the chits), and while I quickly went to AD&D, it'll always be one of my fondest...
I have always consider the Blue Book as OD&D. I stand corrected. Thanks for the share!!
Glad to help! Thank you so much for watching and commenting!
“Advanced” and “Basic” were the same terms we used at Campaign Headquarters in Norfolk, VA from 1980 to 1982.
Was just recommended this channel by a friend and very excited to have found it!
I'm so glad to hear that! Please thank your friend for me. I really appreciate them sharing the channel with you. Cheers!
Holmes set was my first D&D book way back in junior high. My gaming circle moved to AD&D fairly quickly.
Years later, as an experiment (and well before the inflated collector's pricing), my new group played through every edition available, 2E being the most recent.
I cannot imagine as a junior high student outside of the Lake Geneva & Twin Cities wargame circles playing the original rules without substantial difficulty.
I specifically, and the hobby in general, owe a great deal to Dr. Holmes and his edition of the game.
Love this idea for a video.
I'm so glad to hear that! And thanks so much for your generous support of the channel!
No one I ever ran across called it just D&D when talking about the Holmes D&D box set, which as you rightly noted wasn't known as that. What everyone called it back then in Southern California gaming areas I ran in was "Basic D&D". I can't speak for other areas (states), but that's what I recall back in 1978-1982 until I joined the military. Holmes did a great job at making D&D much more accessible and of course removing some of the external requirements to play original D&D (Avalon Hill's Outdoor Survival & TSR's own Chainmail). Also, most of us started quickly ignoring the exp for gold/treasure, since it made leveling up too fast. Instead opting to give experience for defeating monsters, coming up with good ideas etc. Basically we decided that the reward was in the treasure gained and the items. Good overview, loving the trip down memory lane.
Edt: Btw, you were killing me with all the moving around of the books while reading them, then putting one down and snagging another one. Ye ole motion sickness and being old(er) cropping its ugly head.
Please cover more OD&D supplements. It's a relatively untouched section of D&D history.
I can definitely add that to the list! Are you thinking of deep dives into the Eldritch Wizardry, Blackmoor, etc. supplements? Or more like the Dungeon Geomorphs and Monster & Treasure assortments? For those, I do cover them (briefly) in my video on "D&D's Iconic Characters & Early Play Aids": ua-cam.com/video/g3cA1ev-JAU/v-deo.htmlsi=HaPa1I_FiH5jdUMS
@daddyrolleda1 I'm referring to Blackmoor, Eldritch Wizardry, etc., yeah.
Thank you for your channel! I only started playing DnD with 5e in 2021, but I’ve been playing video game RPGs for years. When I get into a hobby, I’m the kind of person that enjoys learning all about the history of the topic. I’d watch (listen) to all the DnD history videos I could, but there wasn’t a whole lot of options.
Your channel has been exactly what I’ve been searching for all this time. Been listening to videos for the past month and a half, and it’s great. Thank you for all the work and effort you’ve put into these. It’s appreciated!
Thank you so much! i really appreciate you saying that, and I'm so glad you found my channel and that you enjoy it. I'm like you in that when I get into something, I want to learn as much history as I can and I've done it across multiple subjects (comic book superheroes, wine, jazz... to name just a few).
Cheers!
This is going to be such a great and helpful series! Thank you for putting in the work to dig into these!
This is an amazing series!!
Glad you enjoyed the debut episode!
Ha! I am glad to see this video. I just started watching and just have to say that this is the box set i first bought. I came into a bookstore and the owner was opening his stock of books, i was looking for the Hobbit. He showed me the newest D&D game Holmes , I could see on display the white box game and chainmail book. Well I tell you i had soo much fun with the basic set. You could just start playing so quickly. Really enjoyed it better than Advanced because of the playability. Well back to your video 👋🏻
Thanks for pausing to share this comment! I love hearing about how people got started in the hobby! I hope you enjoyed the rest of the video!
cool graphic comparison. I think another thing that makes the Holmes version (and later ones) easier to read is the shorter line length. 2 columns in 8.5" yields shorter line lenghts than 1 column on 5.5".
Generally you're more likely to use your place with longer line lengths.
Thanks for the video! I moved from (O)D&D to 1E AD&D as the 1E AD&D books were released but sometimes have played the various Basic versions when folks who were running them didn't mind me not having the exact rules. I've sat in here and there and let the DM tell me when I needed to know something that was slightly different. The groups I was part of for (O)D&D and later were mainly also wargamers or even wargamers first, sometime before D&D was even first published, like myself. I hear some folks say it was difficult to understand (O)D&D if they hadn't played wargames but we seemed to pick it up well enough, I guess. High Gygaxian has a charm all its own which I suppose I encountered when I was so young, it was seen more as a challenge than a barrier. Now it feels archaic in the best possible way, chock full of nostalgia. I always assumed Zenopus was derived from "Xenopus" which breaks down to "strange + foot" which I have heard pronounced as both "zee' · nuh · pus" and "zen' · nuh · pus" so you're probably fine. Holmes seemed to want to keep the Ability Scores fairly simple but still increase PCs' survivability and buff MUs. Resources were an important part of all early D&D and, IMO, is in any Old School RPG emulation. Alignment and encumbrance kinda got fine tuned for 1E AD&D. Initiative has always been an awkward aspect to D&D that the social contract seems to handle, in that once it is explained, players and DMs accept it and use it, no matter the edition. It works out well enough, as long as everyone is on the same page, and every edition offers ways to nerf it and to wheedle against it for advantage. It's kinda funny that way. Damage differences were a revelation and I am not sure if they first were adjusted to use all the dice more often or they wanted things more realistic and someone realized that since they had all these dice, this would be a place to get use out of them. Magic is in constant revision even during editions, it seems, and probably is often written vaguely enough that from table to table it feels different. I always loved sample dungeons and wandering monster tables! I'm also a fan of some nominal experience for the monsters and also experience for treasure (which can be great!). If you don't have a video next week, have a Happy Thanksgiving! Of course, you have a traveling bar case. Why wouldn't you? Perhaps someday you can find a liquor to mix with cranchovie juice (jk). Thanks again for the content!
I always appreciate getting comments from you! Thank you so much!
*I hear some folks say it was difficult to understand (O)D&D if they hadn't played wargames but we seemed to pick it up well enough, I guess.*
To be fair, I've always approached it as someone who learned via a later edition (Moldvay) but looking back, I find a lot of vagueness and inconsistencies and things that aren't defined that I marvel at how folks figured it out. But then again, I learned how to play Moldvay which, while I think being a better version of teaching you to play, is also a game that folks would look at today and say that it doesn't explain everything!
**High Gygaxian has a charm all its own which I suppose I encountered when I was so young, it was seen more as a challenge than a barrier. Now it feels archaic in the best possible way, chock full of nostalgia.*
I do very much agree with this. While I poke fun from time-to-time when re-reading, at the time, I found it charming or at least comforting. It made me feel that I was special, being able to read and understand it, and it certainly improved my vocabulary!
*I always assumed Zenopus was derived from "Xenopus" which breaks down to "strange + foot" which I have heard pronounced as both "zee' · nuh · pus" and "zen' · nuh · pus" so you're probably fine.*
Thanks!
*If you don't have a video next week, have a Happy Thanksgiving!*
I really appreciate that! Thank you so much!
*Of course, you have a traveling bar case. Why wouldn't you?*
I'll dig up some of my pics on FB and send to you. One belonged to my parents and I definitely remember it being in the house although they almost never used it. They were going to get rid of it a few decades ago and I asked if I could have it. A few years later, another friend gave me a vintage one that is almost identical, as he didn't know I already had one!
*Perhaps someday you can find a liquor to mix with cranchovie juice (jk).*
Yuck! But... I mean, it can't be worse than Malört!
Thanks again for your comments!
Thank you for yet another dive into an interesting subject!
I'm so glad you are enjoying it! Thank you very much for watching and commenting. Cheers!
The Blue Book version was the first one that was mass produced and sold in the game/ model/ comic shops.
That fist batch, you had to reach out there to the Lake Geneva crew to have them print it local and send it out. Back then, you could reach out to the crew personally, if you had questions or additional stuff to throw at them.
I used to listen to the public radio show "Jazz After Hours" back in the mid '80s and its odd you mentioned that line-up. Like a blast from the past foso...
I'll have to give this 1e GW giveaway a shot because thats a heavy duty blast from the past there. I wonder if its as beat up as I am?
Great Holmes coverage my man, thanks!
I remember Jazz After Hours!
If you watch the video on "The Classes of White Dwarf Magazine" you'll see a much more in-depth look at the state of the GW boxed set, which is *very* beat up. But I did include a copy of GW1 Legion of Gold in there to make it more enticing.
Great topic, and cast charm algorithm
Love the is style of video. Also hoping for one with b/c compared to other editions
Thanks for letting me know! I appreciate it! And yes I intend to due a comparison of B/X to ODnD and Holmes.
I was introduced to D&D late '78 when I saw a copy of Holmes and a laid out table with maps and minis at a friends house while living in the UK. I remember the gaming group I was introduced too, opening these little boxes before play began. They were using OD&D although I didn't really know it at the time. I bought the AD&D books as they were released. Maybe because I was 12 at the time, the differences in the editions had no real impact on how we played - which was all about dungeon exploring, rather than rules comparisons..
My idea for Magic Missile is to make it work like Yondu's arrow. You enchant it to be a +1 magic arrow (or maybe the bonus scales with level) for one minute. In that time, the Magic-User can function as a decent archer with their magic arrow that they can move and recall psychically.
5e uses the dexterity bonus for initiative and there might be a home rule somewhere where the higher dex goes first in an instance of a tie
Oh, that's interesting! My knowledge of 5E (and 4E) is very limited. Thanks!
The best thing about Holmes was the introductory dungeon in the back. Honestly a much better intro to the game than B2, which I got in the box with it.
Ah, you had a later printing of Holmes then.
In case you didn't know, originally there was *no* module included but rather just Dungeon Geomorphs. Then when TSR started publishing modules finally in 1978 (starting with the Giants series), they included a copy of B1: In Search of the Unknown by Mike Carr in the box. However, due to the royalties deals they had, that meant Mike Carr got a percentage of every boxed set being sold due to the inclusion of his module, which meant Gary and Dave then got less money since they were now splitting their royalties with a third person. Gary then quickly wrote B2: Keep on the Borderlands and stuck that in the box so that he got a higher percentage of royalties on the boxed set sales!
I started with Holmes and moved on to AD&D as it came out. Couldnt afford the original D&D books before that, or drive myself the 150 miles to the store that had them.
I definitely understand that - game stores near me where I grew up were non-existent, but our local toy stores and department stores often carried TSR stuff (but no other companies).
@@daddyrolleda1 Our first store came along some years later. It was actually a comic shop, but had a shelf where they sold games like D&D, T&T, the old zip-lock bag games including Star Fleet Battles, etc.
Don't forget the UCSD group. They also published some of their stuff in 3pp supplements (even before the feist books).
Having started in 90/91 myself, with 2e (and still playing it now), and almost immediately jumping into Dark Sun when it came out, I can assure you that, RAW, 2e is all in on encumbrance and other forms of resource management. How much of that is applied at the table of course depends on the group, the DM, and what of 2e's virtually endless variety of supplemental/alternative systems are being used.
Thanks!
Thank you so very much for your generous support of the channel! I truly appreciate it!
Awesome
I still, in many ways, prefer the Holmes edition to all others. Especially for new or young players. When this hit the streets there was a perfect union of timing with the, then, recent release of the first The Hobbit 1978 movie by Bass/Rankin. That movie evoke a feeling very much in line with what Dr. Holmes was trying to create with his version.
Ooh, very true about them being released around the same time. That's a great connection to make! Thanks for watching and commenting!
John Holmes wrote "Mahars of Pellucidar" which eas my favorite book as a kid (it gave me genuine nightmares, but I loved it). I ran a Blue Book D&D open invite hex crawl game set in Pellucidar on his birthday for a few years to celibrate all Mr Holmes did to shape my nerdom. Its been a while since I ran it, but it was a great tradition while it lasted. I really should revive it, or compile the notes somewhere.
53:20 keep preaching Reverend!
I think encumbrance is a nice thing to have in the game. It's just like if you watch videos of hikers packing on UA-cam and what they bring. They take into account weight and what they're bringing with them, especially if they're doing a long through hike of like the Pacific Crest Trail... That's not a 2-hour hike 🙂.
I have been playing 0E and retroclones but this might actually get me to play B/X and siblings.
Very cool! There's a retroclone of Holmes called "BlueHolme" which is quite popular with that crowd. The "Journeymanne Rules" for it take characters all the way to 20th level even though Holmes stopped at 3rd: www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/208800/blueholme-journeymanne-rules
Thanks for watching and commenting!
I started the opposite way, with BX, now playind OD&D.
I also started with B/X and am still running it for my daughter and her friends!
Fun Fact: while originally requiring an attack roll to hit the target in the initial release of 4th edition (and dealing dice damage to the target), Magic Missile was updated and errata'd with the release of the Essentials product line to no longer requiring an attack roll and dealing flat damage to the target instead.
Interesting. We went straight from original D&D to AD&D. I'm familiar with later "basic" D&D (B/X, BECMI, Rules Cyclopedia) but not Holmes. Thanks for the overview.
You're welcome! I'm glad you enjoyed the video! I will be digging into the differences in Moldvay, Mentzer, etc.
While I started with Moldvay in late 1981, we quickly discovered AD&D was a thing and we played both simultaneously without realizing there was a difference. We were too excited to play to actually read the AD&D rules to notice how different they were!
Zeroth is probably pulled from Asimov's laws of robotics. The Zeroth law
Yeah, I absolutely say zeroth. Probably because of Asimov but also… I don’t say ‘one’ edition and I don’t say ‘zero’ edition hehe
You used to walk around with 1-10 HP. It was brutal to go into combat, as well...
That was my first D&D set. We used the blue book to start and transitioned to AD&D.
I think that was very common back then! Very cool you started with Holmes. I started with Moldvay and didn't see the Holmes set until a few years later while at my friend's house.
I started playing in 1980 and think of White Box as a prototype rather than a finished product and Holmes as a beta. AD&D and Moldvay were the first truly finished, fully playable products that didn't require extensive game experience or reference to other publications. In some ways we've come full circle with the release of ShadowDark which also requires extensive RPG experience and reference to other publications (e.g. nowhere in ShadowDark does it explain how Hit Points are calculated and it lacks any useful description of monster behavior or environments. It assumes you've been playing D&D 5e for years).
GREAT video. I'll probably have this playing in the background multiple times going forward. :-) One thing that I'd say is also worth mentioning is that Holmes Basic was the first set of D&D rules to totally ditch references to Chainmail. Classes no longer had "Fighting Capability" designations per level. Also with regard to mechanics the original Monster Manual is almost more of an OD&D supplement than AD&D since all of the monsters have AC's ranging from 9 on down instead of 10 like AD&D. I did not know about the updates Gary made to Holmes' original manuscript. Is there an online resource detailing the changes or even containing the full original draft? Thanks!
Regarding variable weapon damage, One of the reference pages of B2 Keep on the Borderlands had a table offering this as an alternative optional rule. So while the concept isn’t included in the Holmes booklet it would have been included in the box sets that shipped with that module.
4th edition had a five point alignment system. Lawful good, good, unaligned, evil and chaotic evil.
Oh wow - totally forgot about that! I only played 4E maybe twice right when it came out and don't remember much about it. Thanks for the reminder! Yet one other thing it has in common with Holmes (along with "to hit" for magic missile, although my understanding is they edited that rule later on).
@@daddyrolleda1 I never got to play or run 4th edition. I want to give it a try someday so that I can at least have tried all the major editions.
I had a blast one time playing it for a one-shot that a friend ran. He really leaned into all the unique combinations one could have to take advantage of the tactical nature of the game when he designed our characters for us (he assigned them to us). I think I talked about it on the channel before, but he gave me a character sheet that said, "You are the right head of a pygmy Ettin." Another player was the left head. We had the same physical stats, but different mental stats and different classes (I was a Warlord with a "high" INT of 10, and he was a Fighter with an INT of 6). We had to split our movement in half and were high enough level that I think we each got an action (which could be an attack). I had some powers that basically amounted to intimidating someone into doing what I wanted by force and physical violence. So once I figured it out, my main action each turn would be to take my half move to get into position as much as possible, and then hit the other head and give it a command like, "Go right and attack that guy." The other player leaned into his low INT and would sometimes move the wrong way because he didn't know left from right.
Hilarity ensued.
@@daddyrolleda1 Sounds like that was a blast. Back in the day when the 2nd ed player's guide to humanoids came out my friend and little brother played a duo of a minotaur and a goblin. The goblin sat in a harness on the minotaur's shoulders and used his horns to support a heavy crossbow. We called the team Master Crossbow. Lol
Great video! I do have to point out a mistake you made though. PCs in OD&D were awarded XP for monsters at a rate of 100/Hit Die. See Men & Magic p. 18, the example of defeating the Troll and being awarded 700 XP.
The Holmes Basic wasn't initially envisioned as a seperate system. It was more like how many games these days have a "Starter Set" (Big Example, Call of Cthulhu) where you get a set of basic game system rules, and stripped down character options to lead into a more complete "Full Version" to allow people who hadn't come through the wargame/OD&D pathway, to move on to the AD&D system. The Starter Rules are completelyplayable, but you ultiamtely reach a point where you wantmore...so you buy the full version.
That was the route I and a lot of people I knew at the time took to reach into AD&D. There was no pathway past 3rd level, so once we had a grip on Basic, we just looked at Advanced. The Monster Manual was easy to convert to (Basic) D&D as the format was the same, ie AC, HD, Attacks/Damage and so on, and simply had expanded rules for alignment, certain magic, powers and Psionics. So it was easy to use it to become familiar with some of the expanded rules that would come in AD&D. It took a bunch of 11 year olds all of about 5 minutes to figure out how the 9-way alignment differed from the 3-way, and in the 40+ years since, no one has ever convinced me that our way was "wrong".
I rarely played Moldvay, because it had the same problem as Holmes... it just stopped at higher level. It was only years later when Frank wrote the Companion rules that we dipped back in to play a "BEC" campaign, Never really got as far as Master rules, and had no real interest in the Immortals stuff, but having since read it all... it;s pretty good at creating a well structured progression path from 1st Level to Godhood,(if that's your thing...) and I still consider it the best written, most complete, bottom-to-top, level-based rpg system, where no period of progression is overlooked or broken.
Just dug out my old Holmes book and noticed that it HAS the 9-way grid, which is probably why we found AD&D easier... So that obviously changed when they wanted to make the Basic game its own line, and dropped the complexity of alignment.
Weird how, over the years, I'd forgotten that we already used 9 way, and had convinced myself that all Basic had the 3 way...
When I was young and these were both out, the differences were minor as far as my friends and I were concerned.
The Zed Edition
I like it!
By the lizards front claw there appears to be letters, though it’s just as likely to be shading.
I’m seeing letters possibly, W. LINIL
Or my eyes are squinting too much 😂
Firstly, this cracked me up because I originally read the first part of your comment like an oath or something... "By the lizard's front claw!"
It took me a sec to figure it out! I enlarged a PDF of the picture as big as I could get it without losing the detail and sharpness and it's really hard to tell. It *could* be a name/signature, or it could just be shading on the rock.
Thanks for trying! I appreciate it!
@ lol yeah I see that.
Reminds me of Thrud the Barbarian’s exclamation, “By the Sacred Jockstrap of Robert E. Howard!”. Something like that
Will you show how BECMI and Mentzer are different from both ODD and ADD, as I only realized in the last year that they were different. I started playing in '81 I think and I never new they were different.
I intend to cover both Moldvay and Mentzer and discuss how they are different from each other as well as from both OD&D and from AD&D. It will make the series a little complicated but I think it's worth covering.
Thank you so much for watching and commenting!
So what was the point of even keeping Charisma in the game? Was it a prerequisite for certain abilities or spells?
Zenopus is an excellent example of a name where the author needs to provide a pronunciation guide for it, if they care to have others say it correctly. The two pronunciations you suggest miss out on the very realistic possibility the primary stress could be on the 'o', which immediately doubles our pronunciation options. I will agree that would be highly annoying were it to be the case, but there are languages that would do it nonetheless, our English-speaking sensibilities being irrelevant to the speakers of that language!
Magic Missile is an automatic hit in B/X edition.
It is indeed, and in pretty much every other edition of the game other than 4th, as I mentioned in the video. I started with B/X and was used to Magic Missile being an automatic hit.
Thanks for watching and commenting.
bonus comment: Cheers 🥂 on the passing of Roy Haynes. Sitting in with the angels now.
I was gonna bust your shoes for talking parsley, sage,rosemary, and thyme without playing Simon & Garfunkel, but a passing jazzman gets you a pass.
Ha! I feel like I've delved a little too deep into Paul Simon (I've already covered two of his albums) but that's would've been funny. But, as you noted, I think a tribute was due to Roy Haynes.
Cheers, and thank you so much for sticking through the bonus content and then commenting on it.
I heard Gygax intentionally used that kind of language to help improve the reader's skills.
I certainly helped me in junior high and high school (in terms of language!).
Did you read Deep Cuts from Image Comics?
Oh my goodness, no! I can't believe I missed this! I see a trade paperback of the series came out this past May so I'm going to inquire about it when I visit my local comics shop today to pick up my weekly comics. Thanks for pointing this out to me - it looks right up my alley!
Real gamers play using chain mail rules.
Do you think only being up to 3 Levels was a mistake?
I think if it went up to 5 levels it would feel a little more worth it. 3 is almost pointless. The 90s "New Easy to Master" and "Classic Dungeon & Dragons Game" went to 5 levels.
@yourdagan, Holmes opined that if your intention was to play AD&D that you would be better off not playing his edition. He said so in his 1981 book ‘Fantasy Role Playing Games’. So the answer to your question is that, in a way, Holmes himself thought so.