You very well may have been! Thank you so much for the suggestion! The comments are often difficult for me to go back and find once I've replied to them as I tend to focus on the ones that I haven't answered yet! Cheers, and thank you so much for watching and commenting! I really appreciate it!
Playing the original boxed set by itself has become such a popular experiment in modern online OSR circles that it's easy to forget how omnipresent Greyhawk was back in the day and how essential it was considered. Tim Kask says they sold at least nine copies of it for every ten of the base rules. My take is that Greyhawk was essentially D&D's much-needed "day one patch" and even just adding it to the base rules makes it a significantly better game. Variable weapon damage and hit dice, a more sensible way of handling multi-classing, great monsters like the beholder, all so good.
All that totally makes sense. I feel that if it *wasn't* popular, then all of the stuff it added to the game would've been discarded by Gary in AD&D, but instead it was incorporated whole cloth, and much of it also helped inform the Moldvay Basic Set. I have never yet tried the experiment of playing with only the 3 LBBs but I wouldn't mind trying at some point!
@@daddyrolleda1 It's especially interesting to me that the martial/caster power discrepancy was apparent this early on. Fighters got a lot of boosts, while magic-users got d4 HD and limits on spell learning. Some things never change, I guess.
I started in 1976 and played perhaps one or two adventures before I got a copy of Greyhawk, so my real experience would be in the “omnipresent Greyhawk” category. That said, I have been considering the experiment of playing without it, if I can find some players who are game.
@@daddyrolleda1 It probably helps that many of the core rules clarifications from Greyhawk made it into the ultra-popular Holmes Basic set first, and then made it into Moldvay by default. Holmes Basic was a huge seller with nearly a dozen printings. Interesting to think that some of the arbitrary decisions made by a third party contributor like J. Eric Holmes stayed part of the core game for decades!
Thanks for reading stuff out loud even when it's on screen. I almost always listen to YT videos whether driving or cooking or whatever. Great channel, I never played D&D much but used to read AD&D 1E rulebooks constantly, love seeing the evolution of the game from the ruleset(s) prior to the one I knew.
The inclusion of the Thief probably had a lot to do with the popularity of Thief classes in fan 'zines that predate Greyhawk. Some people straight up accuse Gary of stealing a specific fan's Thief for Greyhawk, but I've compared the two and that Thief plays a bit more like a Magic-User in how its abilities worked. It's been noted in many online discussions that Thieves fit more in with pulpy swords and sorcery settings than Clerics do to begin with, adding to the odd quirkiness of early D&D in that a class not often thought of in such fiction was in the core rules, and the ubiquitous one was added in a supplement!
I think it’s funny that Greyhawk is barely mentioned in this book. Also I love that they went back to Greyhawk in 5e, and hopefully a whole new wave of players get to experience the world of Greyhawk. I honestly think the Darlene map is most iconic map of all time in D&D.
I *LOVE* that Darlene Map! It's *the* iconic map of Greyhawk, at least to me. And yes, the only actual mention of the Greyhawk campaign I found in the book is the Great Stone Face, Enigma of Greyhawk, statue (the one that looks like an Easter Island head sculpture). I know a lot of ideas, especially toward the back, were from the Greyhawk campaign, but they're not necessarily "grounded" in Greyhawk and could be used anywhere. Thank you so much for watching and commenting! And I, too, hope the setting gets some new fans due to the inclusion in the 2024 DMG.
Thanks for covering this history. I learn a lot from each of your videos. I got my ruleset in mid 75 at a science fiction film convention. I was not aware of the Greyhawk supplement until I got to college when my roommate had a set of the books and the supplement. Prior to that, I had tried to get into the game but it wasn't until my roommate using the Greyhawk rules additions that the game really got my attention. We got the other supplements as they came out but none had the impact on the game for us that Greyhawk did.
BTW as a 50 Year Gamer and 48 Year DM of all D&D starting with 1974/75, let me tell you this is another fantastic video. I truly love your work, Martin. Love and blessings to you and your family. ❤️🙏🇺🇸
Thanks for the video! In (O)D&D and 1E AD&D, we used anything beyond the three core rule books as expansion materials to be added piecemeal, to taste, by the DM of the table, and no two tables were ever alike. You're right, that lizard didn't scale well. Never knew any details behind Lucien / Lucian. Mike Mornard owes us all a beer. 😉It's great to see him each year at Gary Con and to play wargames with him when I can. I never really played in Asian-themed games nor ran them so materials for samurai and the like wasn't at tables I ran or on which I played. We did add thieves to our games right away. Seemed like an addition that was much needed if traps were to be more fun in-game. Fighting men clobbering doors and chests from a distance to try and trigger traps didn't lead to a lot of fun and often destroyed treasures. Race as class was fine enough early on but since we moved on to 1E AD&D, the groups with which I played obviously felt that was the better way to play, or made more sense to us. We still kept games to being human-centric, nonetheless. Half-elves became very popular for a while but lost their cache in some campaigns where DMs might have the setting frown on them, like Spock visit contemporary real world settings in Star Trek and needing to cover his ears. We added the rules for ability score updates and hit dice fairly quickly, as I recall. Games I was in back then and even through today rarely reached or exceeded tenth level except one 3.XE game that went to 18th-20th level. I've run some higher level one-shots but not campaigns. Weapon type damage adjustments were also something our groups added. It made sense to us right away and gave all of our dice more meaning. Spells were added on a case-by-case basis as were magic items and no two tables added all of the same spells or items. Often, something would get added by a DM at the prompting of a player. The trap mechanics were helpful, fun, and more fair to add, and worthwhile, once the Thief class was introduced. We loved pumpkin-headed bugbears and shunned the newer ones in the 1E AD&D Monster Manual for some time. The Greyhawk supplement definitely made our games more fun! I don't have any Christmas music in my own collection and primarily listen to Sport radio when traveling in the car, so unless I go to a party or a store that plays it, I don't hear much of it, which means I also don't tire of it. Good stuff!
I've got to say that even though I'm not huge into D&D (I cut my teeth on World of Darkness and Deadlands), I've really, really enjoyed your videos. Your knowledge and thoroughness is amazing. It's really fascinating to see the history of the hobby and how D&D has impacted so much since its inception. One thing that I'm also interested in seeing is a tour of your collection. I know we've seen a lot of different books over different videos, but I'd love to see a walkthrough of the variety of D&D books that you have. Have you ever done something like that, or is that something you'd be open to doing? Either way, keep up the great work!
I am so glad you are enjoying my videos, and I really appreciate you watching and commenting! I have not taken a tour of my collection yet, as I wasn't sure if that was something folks would be interested in. I can certainly add it to the list! It might need to be broken up into two or three videos!
38:40 Sometimes I have the video portion up, but even then it can be difficult for these older eyes to focus on reading things. So thanks for reading the important parts out loud.
Thank you for letting me know! I've had to mention to a few folks that I'll often make on-screen (non-verbal) corrections to my videos when I edit them (such as when I say a date incorrectly, etc.) and I've noticed a lot of folks don't notice those because they're just listening, not watching, so they'll come into the comments to let me know I said something wrong!
Another fact of playing in the old days(in the 70s I was playing while at Kent State),was that rules ,monsters and tables were grafted on as they were published in Dragon magazine ,space gamer or other publications.So this set in motion an organic evolution that created a varied style of play based on geo location due to availability of these periodicals .If you lived an hour or so south of Kent in the rural areas with no dedicated hobby store you either a.went to Kmart and bought the the three little books set and made due b.travelled far or mailed a postal check to TSR for your supplies..The tables and rules that appeared in Dragon magazine were physically snipped from the mag,Xeroxed for other players and grafted into Notebooks and early DM'S screens.This expanded exponentially when rules for the upcoming AD&D PHB started to appear in Dragon.The style of play and what rules were and were not used just exploded.when we traveled to run games at a Kent state branch in another area the whole style changed.The 70s was a golden time for D&D,every door was open and it was grassroots,you learned of it's existence by word of mouth."Keep it secret,keep it safe".(I edited this post due to errors in spell check,does that sound like a computer from hitchikers guide to the galaxy?)
I began with the Red and Blue Basic and Expert boxed sets before getting AD&D. Frankly, I never knew there was a prior edition of Basic let alone the three books or Greyhawk supplement etc. It was only in the last few years from folks such as you delving the history that illuminated these. So I do now have a set of books and enjoy the roots of the game. So thank you! As to length, I often listen as I drive, so 20 to 30 minutes is all I get in one go. The longer format is hard to commit to one sitting. Just my own viewage.
That's fantastic that you got a copy of the original rules. Well done! And, thank you very much for watching and sharing this story with me. I'm very happy to know I played a part, however, small, in helping you learn more about the history of the game. Cheers!
We started in 1976. The DM had all four Supplements and decided to introduce the material slowly. We did however start with Greyhawk, which truly transformed the game. Thieves were an essential element. I also can't imagine playing without different damage dice for weapons and hit dice for characters.
I have to laugh a bit at your commentary here, as I remember picking up this supplement on a lark in 1981 after I had started playing AD&D, and being utterly amazed at how much stuff that was NOT part of the original game. I too found so much inspiration from this supplement back in the day from that tricks and traps section. Love the Greyhawk supplement. Great overview, I really enjoyed it.
52:46 re: video length, I agree sub 10 mins is good for specific informative videos or tutorials where people need quick results fast, but a good length for deep-dives and discussions like this is 30-50 mins, personally I like the longer the better
We found a Lawrence Welk Christmas boxed set (vinyl) at Goodwill a few years ago. It reminds both me and my wife of our childhoods, when mom & dad decided what we would watch on TV.
Oh my goodness! My mom and grandma used to make my sister and me watch Lawrence Welk and while at the time I hated it, as an adult I really appreciate mainly the time I got to spend with the family with a shared experience, but also I do appreciate that it helped me learn about the Great American Songbook and all these different standards that I may not otherwise have been exposed to. Cheers, and thanks for watching all the way through the bonus content!
@@daddyrolleda1 occasionally we'll still watch on Saturday night (our local PBS station shows reruns). It's good background while you're eating or whatever. And the costumes are a trip!
Awesome video on this seminal D&D book, thanks for making excellent content. And I agree 100% that reading from the book helps, so thanks for doing that. I watch/listen - sometimes i watch, sometimes i listen, it depends on what i'm doing, so i guess i'm dual class, i do both.
Good Sir Martin - I believe a lot of this being thought of as being there in the beginning is that so many people reference back to AD&D 1st Edition. Even though much of this tool place between OD&D, their orginal supplements and the BX and BECMI editions, all having a big impact on their creation and existence. ❤
Brother, you continue to supply great historical value for all future generations. I think your point is valid about Greyhawk shifting things, and aI can see why WotC decided to "reboot" Greyhawk in the newest edition.
Another interesting thing in Greyhawk: Thieves cannot roll to find traps. Their skill is strictly defined as the disarming of small traps. Find/remove traps as a composite skill didn't appear until AD&D.
I actually started with Blackmoor in '75. I was already a board wargamer and picked Blackmoor up at a con. Played with Blackmoor, Chainmail, and the Outdoor Survival map map for a few months until my birthday arrived and I got White Box as my "big gift." It's true - people who've never seen WB don't realize how basic it was. They were all miniatures wargamers and expected the DM to create the setting and "make the call" for situations that weren't covered.
The monster combination and new monster ideas are amazing. I remember the 3.5 books recomending using a Iron Golem in a room with flaming traps and such. Making the PCs suffer through sinergy has a long history!
Earlier this week I was watching a video about Ronald the rules lawyer, I Pathfinder second edition UA-camr, and he mentioned how you are one of his favorite channels now. I just thought that was really cool.
Haha the two most broken spells are generally Simulacrum and Wish - for the Baldurs Gate 3 5e based video game they stopped at level 12 because 7th level spells break the world
Perhaps Gygax got half-elf from a misreading of Elrond’s lineage in LofTR. I noticed hobbits were listed above the half-elf entry. For a company that was so litigious in protecting its IP they seemed to have no problem appropriating Tolkien’s work.
Oh, yeah! I've sprinkled it through various other videos, but there are a ton of Tolkien terms throughout Original D&D (and Chainmail) that later had to be excised due to the Tolkien Estate being unhappy with the inclusion of words they felt belonged to Tolkien (primarily Hobbit, Ent, and Balrog, although originally they also went after Orcs, Dwarves, and Elves). You can see the slow progression of the removal of these terms, including in my copy of Greyhawk that I showed (which is 10th printing, so it should've been fixed by this point) that included both "hobbit" and "halfling" even though they all should've been changed to "halfling" by that point. Before "search and replace," it was done manually, so they missed a few!
48:57 Funny fact: some entries in this list were kept all their way into Frank Mentzer’s edition. In Basic DM’s guide (BECMI), p. 48, section “Trick Monsters”, the Arrow Skeleton, the Ogre Jelly and the Symbiotic Dragon examples are repeated with slightly different wording - and the Ogre Jelly keeps the mystery “an Ogre Jelly (looks like an ogre, but…)”. I recalled this immediately ‘cause as a kid I had a copy of the Portugal translation of Mentzer’s Basic and was puzzled at this part. The problem was, despite all the merits in that translation, this pun was totally lost, as Ochre Jelly was translated as “Geléia Ocre” and this Ogre Jelly was translated as “Ogre Gelatina”… both correct but by choosing different possible translations for Jelly they totally ruined the joke.
Martin, love the videos and the history of the hobby stuff! No idea if this is a major lift, so if it is, you can ignore me totally, but the YT format kind of limits listening at times. Would love to be able to listen on my commute. Any thought on releasing as podcasts?
It's definitely something I'm looking into for 2025. My thought is that I'd want to re-record some of my videos with ideally a better microphone and re-frame part of the discussion so that I stop referencing things on screen that a person couldn't see in a podcast, and tighten up the audio, etc. Thanks for the support!
I almost don't play D&D anymore, only when I want to prep a great dungeon and use minis... And even then I prefer to use Castles & Crusades. I usually play pbta games now. But as they aren't mechanic complex and they haven't such a historical baggage. There is no much to talk about them. So earring and taking about D&D is always more interesting to me. I'm glad I found your channel. Great content.
I started in '84 and all of the pre AD&D stuff was very uncommon. I had the Deities & Demigods supplement that I found as clearance at the hobby shop for $5 but really it wasn't until the 21st century that I learned about the earlier edition or the history of the previous generation of the hobby.
Speaking of books with a lot of printings, I wanna say I've heard the Holmes Basic set had like eleven printings and the later Mentzer version was continually in print for over a decade in some fashion! If you count variants of Basic like the Rules Cyclopedia or the later Black Box sets from the 90's it was the longest single running edition of D&D, starting in 1977 and running until WOTC acquired the license and merged D&D and AD&D into one game.
The thing about Supplement 1 is that after you adopt it as part of OD&D, you are, intrestingly, already well on the way towards AD&D. I'd say that the single starkest line that can be drawn is 3LBB vs anything that comes after it, in terms of how the game plays and feels. In that sense it's understandable that it's a big sticking point for some... though clearly, much of the material in the supplements did resonate with a lot of people.
Hey Martin, you should really add Roger Whittaker's Christmas album to your rotation if you dont have it. Great mix of unique songs or different arrangements of existing songs. Really brings in the nostalgia factor, our family has been using it every holiday year since the late 70s. I bet you'll like it.. 🎶
Yes, 100%!!! If you have had a chance to watch my video on "The History of D&D Editions" (one of my very first videos), I refer to OD&D plus the Supplements as "Edition 0.5." So, we're in agreement!
Mars is the Roman name for Greek Pantheon god of war Ares. Talos was a bronze giant built by Hephaestus to guard the Island of Crete as a gift to King Minos. His body was indestructible, except of a vein running across his body and plugged with a plug.
Thank you so much for your continued interest and for not giving up on me. December turned out to be much different for my family and me than I anticipated and I've got a ton of work ahead of me unfortunately. But I've already begun researching and making notes for my next video. I had hoped to possibly record today but that's not going to happen. Please do stay tuned and I will have a new video hopefully next week or the week after. It's another history video in which I'll be going over the multitude of changes made in Advanced Dungeons & Dragons compared to Original D&D and how that impacted the way we play the game today. I'll also finally announce the winner of the contest I held for my 100th video.
Core of DnD: adventurer group, medieval fantasy world, monsters, magic items, spells. Hit points armor class, d20 to hit, saving throws, rolled 3-18 attributes. Not dnd: d100 to hit, limb takes damage, spell point pool, grimdark.
You might reviwe your laptop with a spell of cleansing. Remove all screws from the bottom. Remove the bottom panel. Clean with can of compressed air, while making sure fans don't spin because of the blowing. Screw back together and you might just see a miracle happen before you very eyes.
Thanks for all your insights. I think Rob Kuntz was the unsung hero of this game. Dwarves and Elves never seemed to me to need God's or Clerics. They seem like they would be seperate and superior to mortals with Hobbits being a sort of link between men and elves.
I'm just using my cell phone (which is old at this point - it's a Samsung S9+ which is about 7 years old) and I've made a contraption on my credenza that involves various stacked boxes and sticks upon which I place my phone to allow it to get an overhead shot. It's very primitive and it's part of the reason for the occasional shaking, as it's not "solid" so if I even just slightly bump my credenza while recording, the whole thing shakes. I like to see what I'm recording and when I'm reading the various passages, I'm actually doing through through my camera.
I hold the hobbist, DIY ethic around Diplomacy variants and hex-and-chit wargame supplements and modifications in high esteem. In an atmosphere where players were designers, not merely consumers, products like Supplement I could emerge readily.
In my mind the thief is a less combat class than rogue. Thief got better lock picking and climbing and traps disarming, rogue got more combat agility and endurance.
I knew Greyhawk existed, and I played some modules that were obviously meant for AD&D Greyhawk (though we never specifically used that setting). I find it an interesting piece of D&D history but prefer Forgotten Realms.
Ha! Yup! I actually mention that in the wrap-up. But the "short" (no pun intended) version is that I've been noticing I'm getting far fewer subscribers per month (about half) of what I was getting about 3-4 months ago, and I think that's due to my videos being too long and I've kind of hit my critical mass of folks who are wiling to put the time in for videos of that length. My main goal is to share this history of the hobby with as many folks as possible, so perhaps some shorter (for me) videos might do the trick! Thanks so much for your continuous support of the channel!
I specifically look for videos of an hour or longer and regularly consume videos over two hours in duration. I’m one of those who listens more than watches. I’m not going to be watching any ten minute videos. I really like all the “history of,” videos. I started playing in like 1980, and currently play 5E.
One thing I find interesting in your perception of one of class came into being is only when it’s in the book I understand where you’re coming from but it’s the issue of the origin. I know you recently realize that David Megarry was the first thief, even though the rules for that class were not printed out for others to see, but the role was there similarly with the paladin. Still find your work very informative. It’s more of a angle of how you look at it I guess. Too many people only consider things in existence once it’s in print from a publisher. And not considering the actual notes and commentary from those playing. The modern version of thief for example I agree came from your friends in California as you might say. And the version of the pad we are familiar with came from Grayhawk, but it’s not the first iteration.
The thing is, 99% of us players we didn't have access to the "notes and commentary" from people playing in those original campaigns. It might appear in The Dragon, you might see it in a game at a hobby shop or con, but that was pretty much it. There was no internet to facilitate the easy, free exchange of ideas.
Firstly, thank you so much for refreshing my memory on whether it was Dave Megarry or Mike Carr who played the first thief in Blackmoor! As I mentioned in this video, I interviewed both of them at DaveCon but I didn't have my notes in front of me and while I *thought* it was Dave Megarry, I began to second-guess myself while I was talking about it. I tried to articulate the concept that the *idea* of the Thief seems to have come from the Blackmoor Bunch (or specifically, Dave Arneson and Dave Megarry) while the *mechanics* (from a D&D standpoint) came from the folks at Aero Hobbies, were re-iterpreted by Gary, and then published in the Great Plains Games Players Newsletter and then later in Greyhawk. Same with the Paladin (although I forgot to mention the Blackmoor origins in this video, but I have mentioned it before). I think, because Dungeons & Dragons is more mechanically focused, people tend to focus more on those aspects of a class, whereas my perception of the Blackmoor "classes" (or roles or archetypes are perhaps better words) seem to have been less documented in terms that D&D players would understand (hit dice, level-based class abilities, etc.). While the first Thief in all of Roleplaying Games seems to have been Dave Megarry (unless there was one even before him that I'm not aware of), the first Thief in Dungeons & Dragons specifically seems to be the one from the Aero Hobbies group - at least, that's the version that ended up in D&D. But yes, agreed that the Blackmoor/Megarry Thief pre-dates the mechanical write-up of the class.
@@darkstar8799 I bring it up because I played with the original people in Minnesota. Had and have access. Also have opened up my notes to the author here of the video if he needs & Others. Not surprised but it had been buried for a long time
@TheValarClan very cool. You may not have realized the significance at the time, but I'm sure it's interesting in retrospect. One thing that faded away over time as the base of players expanded were the links to miniatures wargaming, which were very prevalent. I actually played a session of Chainmail at a con this summer - a 100 Years War scenario, w/o the Fantasy Supplement. Probably 45 years since I had last played Chainmail, but a very close, well-fought scenario and good fun.
Greyhawk is weird to me. I've read the 3 LBBs, and I could easily see myself running it (I almost did, recently). Greyhawk, though, just has weird assumptions to me. Such as Dexterity only benefiting Fighters.
That one I always found strange, although I believe it was being done because pretty quickly folks figured out that Fighters didn't really have much going for them. In the 3 LBBs, every weapon just does D6, so an M-U with a Dagger does just as much damage as a Fighter with the Sword. Plus, the M-U has cool spells. So, Greyhawk was an attempt to make the Fighter more attractive by introducing Hit and Damage bonuses for Fighters with high STR, the AC bonus for high DEX, variable weapon damage, and the new class-based Hit Dice, giving Fighters more than anyone else. I feel like people have been trying to figure out how to make Fighters on the same playing field as Magic-Users ever since! Thank you very much for watching and commenting. Cheers!
@@daddyrolleda1 I liked how Alexander Macris described his version of the Fighter, where they gain increased damage and cleaves per level, so that a high level Fighter has the possibility to go on a cleaving spree similar to a Fireball. Haven't played it or read it super carefully, but it sounds like a legit answer to the quadratic/linear debate.
@@daddyrolleda1We found 3-4 Fighters absolutely essential to survive as a low-level party. Yes, your MU does d6 with his dagger - but he can't wear any armor. Unarmored characters were easy to hit, and those goblins or bandits do d6 too. Remember, in OD&D, you didn't die at -10HP, you died at 0HP. And there was no "binding wounds" or chirurgeons or any non-magical way to quickly recover HP in a dungeon. 3 armored Fighters in front, an armored cleric and an archer Fighter in back, and at least 1 MU in the middle was pretty much the minimum for a party to survive more than 1-2 encounters.
Seriously, I like your videos but you need to stop moving the books/papers while talking and reading. Your making my old eyes have issues and causing motion sickness.
Hey, I believe I was that commentor who asked about the supplements! You really are one of the best D&D UA-camrs out there.
You very well may have been! Thank you so much for the suggestion! The comments are often difficult for me to go back and find once I've replied to them as I tend to focus on the ones that I haven't answered yet!
Cheers, and thank you so much for watching and commenting! I really appreciate it!
Playing the original boxed set by itself has become such a popular experiment in modern online OSR circles that it's easy to forget how omnipresent Greyhawk was back in the day and how essential it was considered. Tim Kask says they sold at least nine copies of it for every ten of the base rules. My take is that Greyhawk was essentially D&D's much-needed "day one patch" and even just adding it to the base rules makes it a significantly better game. Variable weapon damage and hit dice, a more sensible way of handling multi-classing, great monsters like the beholder, all so good.
All that totally makes sense. I feel that if it *wasn't* popular, then all of the stuff it added to the game would've been discarded by Gary in AD&D, but instead it was incorporated whole cloth, and much of it also helped inform the Moldvay Basic Set. I have never yet tried the experiment of playing with only the 3 LBBs but I wouldn't mind trying at some point!
@@daddyrolleda1 It's especially interesting to me that the martial/caster power discrepancy was apparent this early on. Fighters got a lot of boosts, while magic-users got d4 HD and limits on spell learning. Some things never change, I guess.
I started in 1976 and played perhaps one or two adventures before I got a copy of Greyhawk, so my real experience would be in the “omnipresent Greyhawk” category. That said, I have been considering the experiment of playing without it, if I can find some players who are game.
@@daddyrolleda1 It probably helps that many of the core rules clarifications from Greyhawk made it into the ultra-popular Holmes Basic set first, and then made it into Moldvay by default. Holmes Basic was a huge seller with nearly a dozen printings. Interesting to think that some of the arbitrary decisions made by a third party contributor like J. Eric Holmes stayed part of the core game for decades!
I played D&D before Greyhawk (in 1974). The Greyhawk supplement was incredible. Then Blackmmor and EPT. So much additional stuff in 1975. Great days.
That's awesome! I love hearing stories like this. Thank you so much for watching and sharing. Cheers!
Thanks for reading stuff out loud even when it's on screen. I almost always listen to YT videos whether driving or cooking or whatever. Great channel, I never played D&D much but used to read AD&D 1E rulebooks constantly, love seeing the evolution of the game from the ruleset(s) prior to the one I knew.
Thank you so much for letting me know! I really appreciate you watching and commenting, and appreciate your support of the channel. Cheers!
Man provides good #bedtimelistening
The inclusion of the Thief probably had a lot to do with the popularity of Thief classes in fan 'zines that predate Greyhawk. Some people straight up accuse Gary of stealing a specific fan's Thief for Greyhawk, but I've compared the two and that Thief plays a bit more like a Magic-User in how its abilities worked. It's been noted in many online discussions that Thieves fit more in with pulpy swords and sorcery settings than Clerics do to begin with, adding to the odd quirkiness of early D&D in that a class not often thought of in such fiction was in the core rules, and the ubiquitous one was added in a supplement!
I think it’s funny that Greyhawk is barely mentioned in this book. Also I love that they went back to Greyhawk in 5e, and hopefully a whole new wave of players get to experience the world of Greyhawk. I honestly think the Darlene map is most iconic map of all time in D&D.
I *LOVE* that Darlene Map! It's *the* iconic map of Greyhawk, at least to me.
And yes, the only actual mention of the Greyhawk campaign I found in the book is the Great Stone Face, Enigma of Greyhawk, statue (the one that looks like an Easter Island head sculpture). I know a lot of ideas, especially toward the back, were from the Greyhawk campaign, but they're not necessarily "grounded" in Greyhawk and could be used anywhere.
Thank you so much for watching and commenting! And I, too, hope the setting gets some new fans due to the inclusion in the 2024 DMG.
Thanks for covering this history. I learn a lot from each of your videos. I got my ruleset in mid 75 at a science fiction film convention. I was not aware of the Greyhawk supplement until I got to college when my roommate had a set of the books and the supplement. Prior to that, I had tried to get into the game but it wasn't until my roommate using the Greyhawk rules additions that the game really got my attention. We got the other supplements as they came out but none had the impact on the game for us that Greyhawk did.
BTW as a 50 Year Gamer and 48 Year DM of all D&D starting with 1974/75, let me tell you this is another fantastic video. I truly love your work, Martin.
Love and blessings to you and your family. ❤️🙏🇺🇸
Thanks for the video! In (O)D&D and 1E AD&D, we used anything beyond the three core rule books as expansion materials to be added piecemeal, to taste, by the DM of the table, and no two tables were ever alike. You're right, that lizard didn't scale well. Never knew any details behind Lucien / Lucian. Mike Mornard owes us all a beer. 😉It's great to see him each year at Gary Con and to play wargames with him when I can. I never really played in Asian-themed games nor ran them so materials for samurai and the like wasn't at tables I ran or on which I played. We did add thieves to our games right away. Seemed like an addition that was much needed if traps were to be more fun in-game. Fighting men clobbering doors and chests from a distance to try and trigger traps didn't lead to a lot of fun and often destroyed treasures. Race as class was fine enough early on but since we moved on to 1E AD&D, the groups with which I played obviously felt that was the better way to play, or made more sense to us. We still kept games to being human-centric, nonetheless. Half-elves became very popular for a while but lost their cache in some campaigns where DMs might have the setting frown on them, like Spock visit contemporary real world settings in Star Trek and needing to cover his ears. We added the rules for ability score updates and hit dice fairly quickly, as I recall. Games I was in back then and even through today rarely reached or exceeded tenth level except one 3.XE game that went to 18th-20th level. I've run some higher level one-shots but not campaigns. Weapon type damage adjustments were also something our groups added. It made sense to us right away and gave all of our dice more meaning. Spells were added on a case-by-case basis as were magic items and no two tables added all of the same spells or items. Often, something would get added by a DM at the prompting of a player. The trap mechanics were helpful, fun, and more fair to add, and worthwhile, once the Thief class was introduced. We loved pumpkin-headed bugbears and shunned the newer ones in the 1E AD&D Monster Manual for some time. The Greyhawk supplement definitely made our games more fun! I don't have any Christmas music in my own collection and primarily listen to Sport radio when traveling in the car, so unless I go to a party or a store that plays it, I don't hear much of it, which means I also don't tire of it. Good stuff!
I've got to say that even though I'm not huge into D&D (I cut my teeth on World of Darkness and Deadlands), I've really, really enjoyed your videos. Your knowledge and thoroughness is amazing. It's really fascinating to see the history of the hobby and how D&D has impacted so much since its inception.
One thing that I'm also interested in seeing is a tour of your collection. I know we've seen a lot of different books over different videos, but I'd love to see a walkthrough of the variety of D&D books that you have. Have you ever done something like that, or is that something you'd be open to doing?
Either way, keep up the great work!
I am so glad you are enjoying my videos, and I really appreciate you watching and commenting!
I have not taken a tour of my collection yet, as I wasn't sure if that was something folks would be interested in. I can certainly add it to the list! It might need to be broken up into two or three videos!
38:40 Sometimes I have the video portion up, but even then it can be difficult for these older eyes to focus on reading things. So thanks for reading the important parts out loud.
Thank you for letting me know!
I've had to mention to a few folks that I'll often make on-screen (non-verbal) corrections to my videos when I edit them (such as when I say a date incorrectly, etc.) and I've noticed a lot of folks don't notice those because they're just listening, not watching, so they'll come into the comments to let me know I said something wrong!
Another fact of playing in the old days(in the 70s I was playing while at Kent State),was that rules ,monsters and tables were grafted on as they were published in Dragon magazine ,space gamer or other publications.So this set in motion an organic evolution that created a varied style of play based on geo location due to availability of these periodicals .If you lived an hour or so south of Kent in the rural areas with no dedicated hobby store you either a.went to Kmart and bought the the three little books set and made due b.travelled far or mailed a postal check to TSR for your supplies..The tables and rules that appeared in Dragon magazine were physically snipped from the mag,Xeroxed for other players and grafted into Notebooks and early DM'S screens.This expanded exponentially when rules for the upcoming AD&D PHB started to appear in Dragon.The style of play and what rules were and were not used just exploded.when we traveled to run games at a Kent state branch in another area the whole style changed.The 70s was a golden time for D&D,every door was open and it was grassroots,you learned of it's existence by word of mouth."Keep it secret,keep it safe".(I edited this post due to errors in spell check,does that sound like a computer from hitchikers guide to the galaxy?)
Magic missile was a game changer. The thief class was cool too.
I began with the Red and Blue Basic and Expert boxed sets before getting AD&D. Frankly, I never knew there was a prior edition of Basic let alone the three books or Greyhawk supplement etc. It was only in the last few years from folks such as you delving the history that illuminated these. So I do now have a set of books and enjoy the roots of the game. So thank you!
As to length, I often listen as I drive, so 20 to 30 minutes is all I get in one go. The longer format is hard to commit to one sitting. Just my own viewage.
That's fantastic that you got a copy of the original rules. Well done! And, thank you very much for watching and sharing this story with me. I'm very happy to know I played a part, however, small, in helping you learn more about the history of the game. Cheers!
We started in 1976. The DM had all four Supplements and decided to introduce the material slowly. We did however start with Greyhawk, which truly transformed the game. Thieves were an essential element. I also can't imagine playing without different damage dice for weapons and hit dice for characters.
Always nice to learn new things about our hobby
Glad to hear it! Thanks for watching and commenting. Cheers!
I have to laugh a bit at your commentary here, as I remember picking up this supplement on a lark in 1981 after I had started playing AD&D, and being utterly amazed at how much stuff that was NOT part of the original game.
I too found so much inspiration from this supplement back in the day from that tricks and traps section.
Love the Greyhawk supplement. Great overview, I really enjoyed it.
“Is a half halfling a quarterling?” “Can I play a dwarf elf?” 😂😂😂 I’m losing it
Those were real questions!!!! 😀
Gotta love that Resting Beholder Face.
RBF!!!! That's hilarious!
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You are making me want to read OD&D. I have never gotten around to it yet.
52:46 re: video length, I agree sub 10 mins is good for specific informative videos or tutorials where people need quick results fast, but a good length for deep-dives and discussions like this is 30-50 mins, personally I like the longer the better
We found a Lawrence Welk Christmas boxed set (vinyl) at Goodwill a few years ago. It reminds both me and my wife of our childhoods, when mom & dad decided what we would watch on TV.
Oh my goodness! My mom and grandma used to make my sister and me watch Lawrence Welk and while at the time I hated it, as an adult I really appreciate mainly the time I got to spend with the family with a shared experience, but also I do appreciate that it helped me learn about the Great American Songbook and all these different standards that I may not otherwise have been exposed to. Cheers, and thanks for watching all the way through the bonus content!
@@daddyrolleda1 occasionally we'll still watch on Saturday night (our local PBS station shows reruns). It's good background while you're eating or whatever. And the costumes are a trip!
Awesome video on this seminal D&D book, thanks for making excellent content. And I agree 100% that reading from the book helps, so thanks for doing that. I watch/listen - sometimes i watch, sometimes i listen, it depends on what i'm doing, so i guess i'm dual class, i do both.
I love the "dual class" comment! Cracked me up. Thanks for the laugh, and thanks for watching and commenting.
Will be watching this one a little later today. Can’t wait! 🎉
I hope it's worth the wait for you! And I thank you for your continuous support of the channel. Thank you!
Shout out to Ray Harryhausen, Jason and the Argonauts.
Good Sir Martin - I believe a lot of this being thought of as being there in the beginning is that so many people reference back to AD&D 1st Edition.
Even though much of this tool place between OD&D, their orginal supplements and the BX and BECMI editions, all having a big impact on their creation and existence. ❤
The “Ogre Jelly” appeared in “Eye of the Beholder III” for the PC.
Brother, you continue to supply great historical value for all future generations. I think your point is valid about Greyhawk shifting things, and aI can see why WotC decided to "reboot" Greyhawk in the newest edition.
I really appreciate that. Thank you so much for watching and commenting. Cheers!
Another interesting thing in Greyhawk: Thieves cannot roll to find traps. Their skill is strictly defined as the disarming of small traps. Find/remove traps as a composite skill didn't appear until AD&D.
Thanks!
Cheers, and thank you SO MUCH for your support of the the channel! I truly appreciate it!
I actually started with Blackmoor in '75. I was already a board wargamer and picked Blackmoor up at a con. Played with Blackmoor, Chainmail, and the Outdoor Survival map map for a few months until my birthday arrived and I got White Box as my "big gift." It's true - people who've never seen WB don't realize how basic it was. They were all miniatures wargamers and expected the DM to create the setting and "make the call" for situations that weren't covered.
Another great video. Thanks for sharing all this and the fun facts.
Thank you so much. I'm glad you enjoyed the video. Thanks for watching and commenting.
Very good, it’s fun seeing where stuff came from.
So glad you enjoyed it. Cheers!
The monster combination and new monster ideas are amazing. I remember the 3.5 books recomending using a Iron Golem in a room with flaming traps and such. Making the PCs suffer through sinergy has a long history!
Earlier this week I was watching a video about Ronald the rules lawyer, I Pathfinder second edition UA-camr, and he mentioned how you are one of his favorite channels now. I just thought that was really cool.
Blackmoor had the Temple of the Frog Adventure. Sure it is a mess but it was the first and stirred a lot of imagination.
In the summer of '77, we started playing the three little books + Greyhawk.
To this day, I prefer either 1st or 3.5 rules.
Daddy rolled a 20 on this one. Excellent video (again) . Keep up the good work.
Haha the two most broken spells are generally Simulacrum and Wish - for the Baldurs Gate 3 5e based video game they stopped at level 12 because 7th level spells break the world
Thanks for a great channel!
Great video!
Thank you very much! I really appreciate you watching and commenting to let me know. New video will be coming out tomorrow!
Perhaps Gygax got half-elf from a misreading of Elrond’s lineage in LofTR. I noticed hobbits were listed above the half-elf entry. For a company that was so litigious in protecting its IP they seemed to have no problem appropriating Tolkien’s work.
Oh, yeah! I've sprinkled it through various other videos, but there are a ton of Tolkien terms throughout Original D&D (and Chainmail) that later had to be excised due to the Tolkien Estate being unhappy with the inclusion of words they felt belonged to Tolkien (primarily Hobbit, Ent, and Balrog, although originally they also went after Orcs, Dwarves, and Elves).
You can see the slow progression of the removal of these terms, including in my copy of Greyhawk that I showed (which is 10th printing, so it should've been fixed by this point) that included both "hobbit" and "halfling" even though they all should've been changed to "halfling" by that point. Before "search and replace," it was done manually, so they missed a few!
Another great video sir!!!
Just wanted to thank you for reading everything for us commuters who can't look at the screen.
Thanks for the feedback and for letting me know! It's always a balance trying to figure out how much to read, etc. I appreciate it. Cheers!
48:57 Funny fact: some entries in this list were kept all their way into Frank Mentzer’s edition. In Basic DM’s guide (BECMI), p. 48, section “Trick Monsters”, the Arrow Skeleton, the Ogre Jelly and the Symbiotic Dragon examples are repeated with slightly different wording - and the Ogre Jelly keeps the mystery “an Ogre Jelly (looks like an ogre, but…)”.
I recalled this immediately ‘cause as a kid I had a copy of the Portugal translation of Mentzer’s Basic and was puzzled at this part. The problem was, despite all the merits in that translation, this pun was totally lost, as Ochre Jelly was translated as “Geléia Ocre” and this Ogre Jelly was translated as “Ogre Gelatina”… both correct but by choosing different possible translations for Jelly they totally ruined the joke.
Martin, love the videos and the history of the hobby stuff! No idea if this is a major lift, so if it is, you can ignore me totally, but the YT format kind of limits listening at times. Would love to be able to listen on my commute. Any thought on releasing as podcasts?
It's definitely something I'm looking into for 2025. My thought is that I'd want to re-record some of my videos with ideally a better microphone and re-frame part of the discussion so that I stop referencing things on screen that a person couldn't see in a podcast, and tighten up the audio, etc. Thanks for the support!
I enjoy your deep dives so 1 or 2 hours is fine.
I appreciate you letting me know. Thanks! And, thanks for your support of the channel!
I almost don't play D&D anymore, only when I want to prep a great dungeon and use minis... And even then I prefer to use Castles & Crusades.
I usually play pbta games now. But as they aren't mechanic complex and they haven't such a historical baggage. There is no much to talk about them. So earring and taking about D&D is always more interesting to me. I'm glad I found your channel. Great content.
I started in '84 and all of the pre AD&D stuff was very uncommon. I had the Deities & Demigods supplement that I found as clearance at the hobby shop for $5 but really it wasn't until the 21st century that I learned about the earlier edition or the history of the previous generation of the hobby.
Speaking of books with a lot of printings, I wanna say I've heard the Holmes Basic set had like eleven printings and the later Mentzer version was continually in print for over a decade in some fashion! If you count variants of Basic like the Rules Cyclopedia or the later Black Box sets from the 90's it was the longest single running edition of D&D, starting in 1977 and running until WOTC acquired the license and merged D&D and AD&D into one game.
Nomemclature Matters! Now I want a mixed drink for each of polearms named in the Appendix from the Unearthed Arcana (1985).
The thing about Supplement 1 is that after you adopt it as part of OD&D, you are, intrestingly, already well on the way towards AD&D. I'd say that the single starkest line that can be drawn is 3LBB vs anything that comes after it, in terms of how the game plays and feels. In that sense it's understandable that it's a big sticking point for some... though clearly, much of the material in the supplements did resonate with a lot of people.
I'd definitely enjoy similar videos on supplements 2 and 3.
Hey Martin, you should really add Roger Whittaker's Christmas album to your rotation if you dont have it. Great mix of unique songs or different arrangements of existing songs. Really brings in the nostalgia factor, our family has been using it every holiday year since the late 70s. I bet you'll like it.. 🎶
Basically this and Eldritch Wizardry was 0.5e
Yes, 100%!!! If you have had a chance to watch my video on "The History of D&D Editions" (one of my very first videos), I refer to OD&D plus the Supplements as "Edition 0.5." So, we're in agreement!
Mars is the Roman name for Greek Pantheon god of war Ares. Talos was a bronze giant built by Hephaestus to guard the Island of Crete as a gift to King Minos. His body was indestructible, except of a vein running across his body and plugged with a plug.
Oh yay! Today is a good day
Cheers! And thank you! I hope you enjoy the video.
I like the long vids, for what it's worth
I appreciate you letting me know. Thank you, and also thanks for watching and commenting.
@@daddyrolleda1 I subbed too!
Any updates on the next update ?? Asking for a gnome illusionist.. hoping the holidays are stress free
Thank you so much for your continued interest and for not giving up on me. December turned out to be much different for my family and me than I anticipated and I've got a ton of work ahead of me unfortunately. But I've already begun researching and making notes for my next video. I had hoped to possibly record today but that's not going to happen.
Please do stay tuned and I will have a new video hopefully next week or the week after. It's another history video in which I'll be going over the multitude of changes made in Advanced Dungeons & Dragons compared to Original D&D and how that impacted the way we play the game today. I'll also finally announce the winner of the contest I held for my 100th video.
it would be cool to have those other books went through
Core of DnD: adventurer group, medieval fantasy world, monsters, magic items, spells. Hit points armor class, d20 to hit, saving throws, rolled 3-18 attributes.
Not dnd: d100 to hit, limb takes damage, spell point pool, grimdark.
You might reviwe your laptop with a spell of cleansing.
Remove all screws from the bottom. Remove the bottom panel. Clean with can of compressed air, while making sure fans don't spin because of the blowing.
Screw back together and you might just see a miracle happen before you very eyes.
Thanks for all your insights. I think Rob Kuntz was the unsung hero of this game. Dwarves and Elves never seemed to me to need God's or Clerics. They seem like they would be seperate and superior to mortals with Hobbits being a sort of link between men and elves.
How are you recording this, Martin? Is it a head cam?
I'm just using my cell phone (which is old at this point - it's a Samsung S9+ which is about 7 years old) and I've made a contraption on my credenza that involves various stacked boxes and sticks upon which I place my phone to allow it to get an overhead shot. It's very primitive and it's part of the reason for the occasional shaking, as it's not "solid" so if I even just slightly bump my credenza while recording, the whole thing shakes.
I like to see what I'm recording and when I'm reading the various passages, I'm actually doing through through my camera.
I hold the hobbist, DIY ethic around Diplomacy variants and hex-and-chit wargame supplements and modifications in high esteem. In an atmosphere where players were designers, not merely consumers, products like Supplement I could emerge readily.
In my mind the thief is a less combat class than rogue. Thief got better lock picking and climbing and traps disarming, rogue got more combat agility and endurance.
as one that listens more than watches, thank you for reading aloud lol
Thank you very much for letting me know. I appreciate your support.
I knew Greyhawk existed, and I played some modules that were obviously meant for AD&D Greyhawk (though we never specifically used that setting). I find it an interesting piece of D&D history but prefer Forgotten Realms.
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I hope you enjoy the video!
Wow a short video :)
Ha! Yup! I actually mention that in the wrap-up. But the "short" (no pun intended) version is that I've been noticing I'm getting far fewer subscribers per month (about half) of what I was getting about 3-4 months ago, and I think that's due to my videos being too long and I've kind of hit my critical mass of folks who are wiling to put the time in for videos of that length. My main goal is to share this history of the hobby with as many folks as possible, so perhaps some shorter (for me) videos might do the trick!
Thanks so much for your continuous support of the channel!
@@daddyrolleda1 appreciate all your effort
I specifically look for videos of an hour or longer and regularly consume videos over two hours in duration. I’m one of those who listens more than watches. I’m not going to be watching any ten minute videos. I really like all the “history of,” videos. I started playing in like 1980, and currently play 5E.
Thanks for the feedback. I really appreciate it! And, thanks for your support of the channel. Cheers!
One thing I find interesting in your perception of one of class came into being is only when it’s in the book
I understand where you’re coming from but it’s the issue of the origin.
I know you recently realize that David Megarry was the first thief, even though the rules for that class were not printed out for others to see, but the role was there
similarly with the paladin. Still find your work very informative. It’s more of a angle of how you look at it I guess.
Too many people only consider things in existence once it’s in print from a publisher. And not considering the actual notes and commentary from those playing.
The modern version of thief for example I agree came from your friends in California as you might say. And the version of the pad we are familiar with came from Grayhawk, but it’s not the first iteration.
The thing is, 99% of us players we didn't have access to the "notes and commentary" from people playing in those original campaigns. It might appear in The Dragon, you might see it in a game at a hobby shop or con, but that was pretty much it. There was no internet to facilitate the easy, free exchange of ideas.
Firstly, thank you so much for refreshing my memory on whether it was Dave Megarry or Mike Carr who played the first thief in Blackmoor! As I mentioned in this video, I interviewed both of them at DaveCon but I didn't have my notes in front of me and while I *thought* it was Dave Megarry, I began to second-guess myself while I was talking about it.
I tried to articulate the concept that the *idea* of the Thief seems to have come from the Blackmoor Bunch (or specifically, Dave Arneson and Dave Megarry) while the *mechanics* (from a D&D standpoint) came from the folks at Aero Hobbies, were re-iterpreted by Gary, and then published in the Great Plains Games Players Newsletter and then later in Greyhawk. Same with the Paladin (although I forgot to mention the Blackmoor origins in this video, but I have mentioned it before).
I think, because Dungeons & Dragons is more mechanically focused, people tend to focus more on those aspects of a class, whereas my perception of the Blackmoor "classes" (or roles or archetypes are perhaps better words) seem to have been less documented in terms that D&D players would understand (hit dice, level-based class abilities, etc.).
While the first Thief in all of Roleplaying Games seems to have been Dave Megarry (unless there was one even before him that I'm not aware of), the first Thief in Dungeons & Dragons specifically seems to be the one from the Aero Hobbies group - at least, that's the version that ended up in D&D. But yes, agreed that the Blackmoor/Megarry Thief pre-dates the mechanical write-up of the class.
@@darkstar8799 I bring it up because I played with the original people in Minnesota. Had and have access. Also have opened up my notes to the author here of the video if he needs & Others. Not surprised but it had been buried for a long time
@TheValarClan very cool. You may not have realized the significance at the time, but I'm sure it's interesting in retrospect. One thing that faded away over time as the base of players expanded were the links to miniatures wargaming, which were very prevalent. I actually played a session of Chainmail at a con this summer - a 100 Years War scenario, w/o the Fantasy Supplement. Probably 45 years since I had last played Chainmail, but a very close, well-fought scenario and good fun.
Greyhawk is weird to me. I've read the 3 LBBs, and I could easily see myself running it (I almost did, recently). Greyhawk, though, just has weird assumptions to me. Such as Dexterity only benefiting Fighters.
That one I always found strange, although I believe it was being done because pretty quickly folks figured out that Fighters didn't really have much going for them. In the 3 LBBs, every weapon just does D6, so an M-U with a Dagger does just as much damage as a Fighter with the Sword. Plus, the M-U has cool spells. So, Greyhawk was an attempt to make the Fighter more attractive by introducing Hit and Damage bonuses for Fighters with high STR, the AC bonus for high DEX, variable weapon damage, and the new class-based Hit Dice, giving Fighters more than anyone else.
I feel like people have been trying to figure out how to make Fighters on the same playing field as Magic-Users ever since!
Thank you very much for watching and commenting. Cheers!
@@daddyrolleda1 I liked how Alexander Macris described his version of the Fighter, where they gain increased damage and cleaves per level, so that a high level Fighter has the possibility to go on a cleaving spree similar to a Fireball. Haven't played it or read it super carefully, but it sounds like a legit answer to the quadratic/linear debate.
@@daddyrolleda1We found 3-4 Fighters absolutely essential to survive as a low-level party. Yes, your MU does d6 with his dagger - but he can't wear any armor. Unarmored characters were easy to hit, and those goblins or bandits do d6 too. Remember, in OD&D, you didn't die at -10HP, you died at 0HP. And there was no "binding wounds" or chirurgeons or any non-magical way to quickly recover HP in a dungeon. 3 armored Fighters in front, an armored cleric and an archer Fighter in back, and at least 1 MU in the middle was pretty much the minimum for a party to survive more than 1-2 encounters.
Seriously, I like your videos but you need to stop moving the books/papers while talking and reading. Your making my old eyes have issues and causing motion sickness.
I could easily listen to your videos to sleep, save for that obnoxious THUD at the beginning. Views are views, awake or not.