Great video force. If I might add one thing that ruins MMOs (and gaming as a whole) is the culture of min-maxing everything from the start, the plethora of "Ultimate beginners guide". We just don't sit down and play anymore, we don't experience the game as a game, we only want to be efficient. On the other hand I now know that I don't have the time nor the energy for MMOs anymore, grouping up, sitting in a raid for 6h straight, that isn't feasible anymore. That's why I got interested in the survival genre, where it scratches that mmo itch, but I can play on my own at my place, if it has mmo-lite aspects the better.
True, I try to play through them without help with most, to get the best leveling experience. I usually only start using those guides later when needed. I got into ESO recently, played for 30 levels without any guides really, and then used a beginners tank guide for how to play tank in it. I think people should start doing that moreso to get their own, unique and fun experience. That's not on the developers though (although they've plenty of problems that hurt the genre)
I actually decided to just play Hogwarts legacy lately and not look things up and min max. Lo and behold, I found myself enjoying it much more than most other games I've played recently.
@@Kroiiz3 like looking up guides and finding the fastest way to unlock things or achieve things? I just played it organically without looking things up and minmaxing my time spent to make the game as trivial as possible as fast as possible...
I completely agree, hoever I must point out that nothing is forcing you to use those guides. Obviously, a large portion of the community WILL use guides, but if it ruins your experience... don't use them.
What a great video Force. As someone born in 82, now 41, that grew with ZX Spectrum, NES, Dune 2, Warcraft and later WoW I wholeheartedly subscribe the sentiments in this video. WoW was my game for like a decade and even tho I fondly look back at the first time I’ve played WoW and the first few years of novelty, I know that those were once in a lifetime experience that I will never be able to repeat. That is why I’ve never tried to play WoW Classic, the nostalgia is a strong drug but not enough for me not to remember how shitty the game was compared to now (mechanicaly, the grinding, etc.). Recently played a lot of GW2 and still had a lot of fun, but MMOs will never be the same for me after WoW almost 20 years ago, and that is OK. I do find enjoyment in a lot of Indy games nowadays, for example Hollow Knight. Again, great video mate. ❤
Bout the same for me except I actually went back to classic WoW, it was still a very fun experience. I also went back and played classic servers for other games like DaoC and still found them more rewarding than modern MMOs. It's nothing like experiencing it fresh for the first time, especially when everyone was blind back then, but the elements of why they were such addictive games was still there and I can honestly say modern games don't have a lot of those elements. That sense of risk/reward and working hard towards a reward is just missing. Also the fact that everyone was on a static server helped a lot, you'd learn most of the people on your server over time (compared to modern sharding BS). I think New World was the last MMO I played and the slow incremental upgrades (more akin to Destiny loot) and less strategic combat just made the whole thing less rewarding. "Strategic" RPG combat in general is just lacking from modern MMOs, they've all gone the route of action combat and done away with most class archetypes and just turned every class into pure DPS. -The way I'll know whether something like the LotR MMO will suck is if they only have 5-6 active skills on their bar and "item power" on the gear. It will be one of those games fun for a few weeks but then fall into mediocrity like the rest. I've kinda stop looking forward to MMOs in general and beel looking almost exclusively at survival games. Out of all those games he listed the only one I'm thinking will hold my interest for more than a couple weeks will be Nightengale.
60$basegame+30$dlc+12$ subscription every month vs genshin impact/mabinogi/eso where you buy a subscription for like 2 years and you own all the dlc if you spend the crowns on the dlc and then can play for free if you so choose warframe buy a few warframe slots and a few arms slots path of exile a inventory expansion albion online you dont even need to buy anything even vip doesnt matter in terms of progression to mid game and by the time it does matter you can easily own it via in game eve online you need to buy a subscription for a few years to quickly unlock the mountain of research and honestly come back to the game after the 2 years that it will take to be done but is a viable option to skip the bs of the game and then go completely free from there no mans sky is still free 7 days to die too in terms of playing with ones friends to so many good games it just takes people to actually try it and find ones that are best played with friends as its no joke humans are social creatures and are you paying for a group at times games are better as a group free as in pay once own forever souls likes fps fighters est if its known for good online i may give it a shot switch being king for these kinds of games some groups are not good to game with but to train with get it ima mute the trash talker and practice against him and how he team plays because its the trash talkers who are in some of the cases the dude who knows where he wants to be in a team battle which may get him extra damage for clout vs skill he may get extra damage even a extra kill by constantly playing behind the team but not much more then that
I went black to classic and enjoyed the hell out of it. I did all the things I didn't have the time or skill for in vanilla like raiding naxx and becoming a full geared world pvp menace. Met new friends and achieved goals and a bunch of noobs like me were around that didnt have everything figured out but we did it together. I recommend jumping on the classic era now. Might be the last chance to get a hit of that wow vanilla drug. For me I finished the game and I'm done with it but what an amazing ride.
Another reason people don't think gaming is as exciting or fun anymore is the fact the there has been a lot less innovation in gaming in the 10 years compared to the leaps of progress made 2 or 3 decades ago. I think its simply what it is, most technology early on has a boom of innovation before quickly leveling off. The massive improvements made in graphics, performance, and game design were happening so fast for us as kids. These days games released in 2023 can be great but there not always distinguishable from a game from 2013.
My problem is that each MMO is like offering a whole new 'job' for the most part. They all need a good time investment to get the most out of and with new games/my old MMOs with their own communities of friends I love to play with I just can't hop around as I used to.
EverQuest opened a new server going back to the start and it's been a blast. So busy it's hard to level soloing so grouping is really easy. My first MMO experience was EverQuest just as the first expansion was coming out. Blew my mind and was like seeing Pong back in the 70's for the first time. Setting off a great big smile followed by, 'Did not see this coming but I like it.'
Doing blind prog for various MMOs really has helped my enjoyment for them (both leveling and endgame). Tough part is of course finding a group, but yeah, I wish this was a bigger, more established thing. Generally moving away from [efficiency is better] has helped kindled joy for the act of play instead of winning.
You hit the nail on the head with this one. Monetization feels like the primary focus for all the games I’ve tried recently . Diablo 4 being the latest
Yeah I'm 45 and been playing MMOs my whole life. I've had so many good times in games like WoW, Ultima Online, Aion, Wildstar and GW2. The problem I keep coming up against is that gamers have changed. The friends I used to play with all got married and had kids. Playing for three days solid with a few hours sleep just seems like a distant memory now. I'm looking forward to Chrono Oddesy but the MMO I'm betting on is Ashes of Creation. If that game doesn't do well I think I'll give up on MMOs ever coming back to how they were back in the day.
Im really just desperate to find a good MMO again. I can’t describe the dull empty feeling from games lately. I’m 31 next month work a full time job with 2 kids so I don’t have time like I use to when I was a kid/teen..early 20s but I do miss that addictive feeling wanting to play a game SO BAD and FINALLY have the time to play and get so excited it feels like Christmas as a kid again.
I can't help but reminisce about the good old days of immersive MMORPGs. The nostalgia hits hard, but hey, let's hope for a bright future and the revival of epic MMO! Great job on this video, it made my day!
I think part of the issue is that back then connecting with people was an awesome experience because we had less ability to do so, and now we’re so connected that we’re trying to find ways to disconnect. I was all up in WoW back in vanilla with a guild and everything, and now unless it’s comprised ofmy circle of friends then I have very little interest of playing games with random people
I, like many of you, got started in MMOs when I was young. I was 12 when I started EQ1 and it was my second life. Not as much time these days, but I would honestly enjoy a game that was a deep dive again.
Force, Ashes of Creation is built on the fundamentals of what you’re discussing here in this video. Yes, you’re in your right to be skeptical, and no it won’t be the ‘WoW Killer’ or ‘savior of all MMO’s’ but it will NEVER be pay to win or pay to convenience, which is INCREDIBLY rare in today’s age of gaming. That combined with the new ideas and passion of making an MMO for the people that loved the old days of MMO’s, is something to be celebrated and encouraged in my opinion. Intrepid also just hired Bill Trost the co-creator of EverQuest as their new lead game designer. Anyone interested in seeing a company doing their best to bring back the original love for MMO’s to the modern era of gaming, should check out Ashes of Creation. We should support those that care and stand true to their principles, even if that game won’t be for everyone that prefers the modern takes on MMO’s.
The thing is we grew up, and the gaming industry evolved. Even if the same 'favorite' MMO comes out today and we have no memories of playing it before, we'll unlikely find the same experience.
I was super hyped for EQ Next.. Simply because the idea behind it was so unique. The building aspect and different things on each server based on what the players build or destroy 😎 Plus EQ started it all so it felt like a rebirth, the next evolution!!! Then it got canceled..😢
EQ started it all? No it didn't.. Ultima Online was out in 1997 and before that there were a few others and we had MUDs which were the predecessors of MMO's..
@@Eyrothath Umm, I was there… I lived it. Nobody played Ultima.. This has never been a debate until new people show up that don’t have a clue what they are talking about. I said what I said.
@@Turtleshellon UO at its peak had 250,000 subscribers, people played it.. The active UO outlands shard (a private shard) has 2,000-3,000 consecutive players logging in daily.. Everquest has about 7.3k players and had around 1.2 million subs at it's peak. official UO shards still have around 4,000+ active subscribers, many who still login daily (mostly on Atlantic) Not sure when or what you played on, but A LOT of people were playing UO, especially during the AoS period is when it hit its peak, that was around 2003.. And in 2004 it got a swift kick in the ass by World of Warcraft..
@@Eyrothath Bro EQ had over 250k on a server.. wtf are you talking about. I can show you a player count for every game out. Nobody played Ultima and nothing was innovative about it. Like I said and everybody knows, EQ started it all. You are the first person ever to disagree…
@@Turtleshellon you can't put 250k players on a single server back then.. You can now with mega servers like Albion has.. There's charts out there. EverQuest peaked at around 1.2 subscribers.. UO peaked at around 250-300k.. the maximum number of players for a WoW server alone is 3,000-5,000 as far as how many players a server can support at a time.. UO was innovative at the time it came out. It ranks number 1 is almost every article even new ones when it comes to player housing when a gaming website decides to rank player housing systems.. The only game it would fall behind is Star Wars Galaxies. UO is among the top MMOs in history and was in the Guinness book twice during it's time 1999-2000 for various reasons. Today there is roughly around 4,000 active UO players, most of them are on Atlantic, another 2,000 consecutively logon to UO Outlands..
A well-done presentation! I’m not probably in the typical gamer demographic. At age 64, what you expressed here would be what I have felt for probably as long as you have been alive. LOL That’s nothing against you or anyone else younger than me - it’s just numbers. I have been craving a game that I can just enjoy without all the hype, micro-transactions, etc. Over the past 15 or so years, I have found a few that checked all my boxes, but then they shut down and my search continued. Currently I play BDO but have pretty much achieved all that I want from it and am eagerly looking forward to several of those on your list. I agree that Nightingale seems promising, as do Chrono Odyssey and the anticipated juggernaut Starfield - perhaps not a true MMO, but a game to play, nonetheless. I hope at least one of those can provide what I am looking for. And while I agree with your assessment that the focus of the industry has changed to be more about the money than the art, could not the same be said for just about anything else? Throughout the entertainment industry, this same sort of evolution has been going on. Remember that line from the government handler in the movie The Incredibles: “It’s always Money, Money, Money! We can’t keep doing this Bob!”
I’m playing Black Desert right now because I love grinding when it’s fun to press your buttons and I also always return to it because my gear isn’t automatically irrelevant. It’s a game my buddy and I love to play even if most of the time we are progressing our characters separately. I am craving a fresh start on a brand new MMO though. My hype list: 1. Riot MMO 2. LotR MMO 3. Chrono Odyssey
tbh after playing mmorpgs for 15+ years i dont think me or any1 else that played a lot of time will ever have the same satisfaction and hunger for any new mmorpg. sure i'll try them all but its just so hard for any of them to keep me playing nowdays
True. My biggest problem is I still have time to play them, just not 12hrs a day. I can't play vanilla WoW anymore, but I still wanna play MMORPGs. But any that aren't super elitist make the experience WAY too braindead. No challenge questing, etc. So there's no happy medium of time and challenge. Sucks.
Great points in this video. For those of us who have been gaming for decades, games just don't have the same spark anymore that would light up the imagination. So many of them are obviously made with the number one goal of getting in your wallet, instead of being fun first. That why Elden Ring was truly something special, especially now days. It was a call back to a better era in gaming. It was unique, challenging, and the world and lore were absolutely amazing.
The unknown in elden ring really brought back that feeling of exploration and fear that I had when I was first playing mmos like WoW. It's hard to replicate that feeling and as i get older it's increasingly hard to let myself get fully absorbed into a game.
ngl I didn't even like Elden Ring. Just felt like a bunch of recycled content, quirky fights, and awful scaling. First FromSoftware game I didn't finish. I get that they're changing for what people want. I liked their older stuff. Probably going to be left behind and not buy any of their products anymore. That's fine though ^_^. Maybe another company will fill in that niche that FromSoftware is abandoning and I can buy their stuff instead :).
Wayfinders hooked me and I can’t wait for that to come out, been a long time since I planned on putting a bunch of my free time into a game coming out. Diablo had me hooked until they started nerfing everything every single day because of the 1%ers just like Outriders did but luckily I got my refund and I’ll play the game when it’s actually complete because I have zero interest in making a new character every 90 days to enjoy the new content 🤷♂️
Agree 100% 👍(especially on the why and how of game development (&monetization), especially by the big game studios). As for how many... I hope they somehow space out over the next 3-4 years (probably will, always delays). 2023 could really use some more MMO launches, real lull last year and this year. And if one can be 'the one' (at least for myself), that would be great. As for Camelot Unchained, no idea how that will ever finish but they do keep working on it.
I believe for a lot of us, like has already been said, things were just different "back then". There's a lot to that that I think we consider and realize, but I believe there is even more to it that we don't always pay attention to. For instance, there weren't a lot of choices back then - or at the very least, certainly not nearly as many as there are now. When big hitters came out, they gained an audience quickly. A significant part of that was because the game was new and the concept was refreshing and somewhat unexplored, but I think a lot of it was because there just wasn't much saturation then. People had yet to stick their flag in the ground and say "this is MY game", and I think a lot of that was because before that most games were a one-shot, ~40 hour experience. I should note that I can't speak for all developers or development studios by saying this, but as a developer I can say that the idea of "trying to make the next big thing" isn't as black and white as it may seem. I totally get how it appears that way at face value - it's a completely logical conclusion to come to and, frankly, it may be the case for some developers. There ARE those of us out there, however, that aren't this way but we can't ignore what has worked in other games or what is liked in other games. Part of the great thing of there being so many games is that there are SO MANY opportunities for developers to innovate to make their game feel even the slightest bit different than another. This is good for everyone. 'Access to information being different' was mentioned and I 100% feel that this is a MAJOR cause for the shift from the way things used to be - arguably more so than anything else. There used to be a mystery or some enigmatic presence for a game and that instilled excitement, suspense and a craving for wanting to know more. Some of this remains today, but it's largely diluted by all the information that's available now before the game EVER comes out! A lot of marketing a game now feels less about the game itself, but more about competing with other titles so it gets noticed. I think there is some manner of possibility for a game that may recapture what some of us experienced before, but with so many who never experienced the way gaming was "back then" in both the gaming playerbase as well as the development community, I don't feel it's likely. The environment that online gaming offers to new players now, MMOs specifically, just simply isn't the same as it was for many of us and, frankly, there are a lot more of the players that never experienced that than the players that did. As such, the design motivations they may have or the expectations players may have for the games will come from a different opinion and experience. I think the biggest "hits" will likely come from titles that never intended to be such. These titles are often made from a concept of "fun first" or the like. As a developer, that's what I want to develop. As a player, that's what I want to play - I couldn't care less if it's AAA or not. Try to play a game for what it is. Try NOT to play it and compare it to what it could be. No matter the game, a lot of heart and soul goes into it - maybe not from everyone involved, but definitely most of them.
Games used to feel like games. Now they feel like vehicles for monetisation (i.e. products). Such a true comment. I want to go back in time to when the PS2 was the latest console. Games were absolutely incredible back then.
I would imagine there are just teams of MBAs inventing "player retention" mechanics designed to make you feel like you have to play so they can point to a quantitative metric and ignore how qualitatively awful the game is.
I graduated HS in 2003, then WoW came out and the rest was history. I honestly think that release captured lightning in a bottle, no other time in gaming came close to it for me. All my friends and S/O's were playing on our server... we had a decent guild, shit was wild. I don't ever expect that type of phenomena to happen again but I'll take even a fraction of that feeling! Looking forward to AoC and the Riot MMO whenever they release.
classic wow really is the GOAT of MMO's, playing recently and appreciating the love put into that game over 20 years ago. Honestly no game even comes close to sucking you in & sucking you dry like that
There is too many options. No one is open to taking big risks anymore. They are too costly to make. Achievement and nostalgia play heavy but with cash shops and wallet to look cool all that goes out the window. There is a ton of reasons MMOs are unlikely to ever hit the same.
Just wanna say thanks for this really great video. Made me feel super nostalgic, but also reminded me some of these things we keep seeing again and again, are still new to someone else. I think its a good perspective to keep, even though the De'ja Vu is definitely real.
Great video. All of these points are true: like MMOs came on the scene in an era where online social interaction was novel and that helped them, and yeah, the cash shop / monetization in newer games is a problem, but I think there's another major factor that makes people check out of these new MMOs early imo. WoW no doubt had offered a really great gameplay experience, but gameplay isn't enough. MMOs are deep investment massive world games, and for people to deeply invest in the massive world, they first have to give a shit about it. I played EQ and WC3 around the same time and liked them for two completely different reasons. EQ was great because it was really the only game like it, so it's appeal for me was the gameplay component. And not that I didn't come to find EQ's lore interesting, WC3 at its core was SO good at aesthetic, worldbuilding, story and characters. When I heard I can do the EQ thing in a world with Warcraft's flavor, that's when I knew WoW was going to be huge. In the early 2000s WoW's major appeal was that you could play through the Warcraft world from the ground-level perspective of all those cool units you were familiar with and maybe run into Illidan/Arthas/Kael'thas or explore Mount Hyjal. You pulled in WC3 fans and EQ/MMO fans. I was both, and was wholly bought in. A ton of people already cared deeply about the world.. of Warcraft and wanted more of it. This is essential for a game that requires a lot of investment. If you look at the top MMOs that have staying power it's WoW, FF, ESO, etc. These are huge franchises that people have a long history with. As solid as I think many MMOs are gameplay wise, like New World, Rift, etc I just didn't care enough about the world, thus I didn't care about investing into it. A huge percentage of MMOs that launch have to establish a buy in to the story, world and characters to get you first to CARE about investing into your character and their world imo. None of them are going to be able to be EverQuest where the gameplay experience is so unique that you'll get invested in the world because you have no other options. Unless MMO developers are confident they can deliver a powerful story/character/world hook at the beginning of their MMO game, I think most of them would benefit greatly from first introducing their worlds through another smaller, less resource intensive genre, or in mediums that are better for storytelling. Then once you know people care, you can create an MMO world people want to invest in. But yeah, you'll still need to nail the gameplay too. If I had to guess, as long as they nail the gameplay, Riot's League MMO or the new Amazon LotR MMO will do well.
Even if you didn't care about many things EQ or WC3 are, they were still great games to just play with friends or meet people to have fun with. Sometimes the boring methodical mechanics force players to endure together and gave time to socialise, making strong bonds. Maybe you just like playing the 100s of different custom games in WC3. They were just great social places to be, something that was a big deal before social media, discord, smart phones, free to play multiplayer and even wikis/youtube guides. Modern games are all competitive or action packed, there's no time for socialising and no time to explain.
I think a lot of people including me just feel like the game that should exist still doesn't exist yet. Like one example, me and my friends constantly speculating about GTA 6 should have all these cool realistic features that would make the game feel like you're truly playing a next-gen realistic crime sim. But sadly the way games are monetize these days, they'll never focus on giving us a cool game experience like that. That's why gaming is dying for a lot of people, because the game they want isn't being made.
MMO's just aren't what they used to be anymore. I was heavily invested in Final Fantasy 11 and WoW back in the days. Nowadays, every game has an online mode so MMO's just don't have that spark anymore.
Yep. And is why we'll be seeing MMO-Lites or MMOs that don't require the player to rely or require other players for content, and if it does, it has matchmaking.
FF11 was my first entrance into MMOs. Going back and playing it now is a trip. Its changed a ton, but the environments still hit all the nostalgia buttons.
Try out Horizonxi if you havent already. Its a free privatr server thats brought back classic FF11. The level cap is going to be set at 75 for all future expansions, and theyre changing a lot of the problems people had with it to be in line with what we loved about classic.
I'm now a Jaded Gamer. That back in my day feeling is dominating and nostalgia definitely skews my taste. Too many choices now...i actively ignore the monetization. We spoilt for choice and i don't have the money to keep up with the addiction of discovering new experiences. Being a 45 year old gamer...I've slowed down naturally.
people aren't going to spend hours on end exploring a world unless there's a pre-existing desire to explore that world. LOTR and Warcraft III created that desire for WoW (no, technically azeroth isn't middle earth...but yes it is, or at least it scratched that itch) I have no desire to explore the world of "Dragnorox" because I have no clue what that even is. I couldn't name a single character or tell you why anyone should care about them. before I played a second of WoW I was already invested in Arthas, the elves, the orcs, etc, which drove me to explore that world.
I really enjoy your videos Force. Just honest opinions and thoughts without getting too nerdy. Just like a conversation about gaming I'd have with a friend. Thanks !
Gaming has become way too mainstream. The greedy corporations have moved in and removed the soul from games, and finding gems is always gunna be hit and miss from now on.
I lost count of how many times I nodded my head, said "AMEN", or raised a fist with you on SO MANY points you make about how it is vs. how it was. Love your videos as always. Thank you for this one!
This was really great man, I enjoy your channel and perspective a lot. I agree whole heartedly. I want the era of games where they are sold as an artful, immersive experience made by huge nerds who are stoked to make games. Elden Ring was a great example. Big wig capitalists need to hear us all say "I'm going to play this for a day or so and drop it" when they make the multi-pop up cash grab game making style.
Love these sit down and talk kind of videos man. Also, I have been saying the same thing for years! Games used to be made for the GAME and feel like a GAME where as now they are made to monetize and/or get you "hooked". Its really shit, and even (or especially) diablo 4 felt this way. A prime, recent example of this. Everything these AAA companies do makes the game feel extremely artificial instead of just...a game.
Such a great distillation of the reasons for the hole in our hearts. I hadn't really considered the novelty component and how years of gaming experience plays into that. You're my primary source of gaming news Force, keep up the excellent critical reporting. That said, I'd rather you were directing the development of the new MMO we've all been waiting for.
I am currently playing FFXIV, I started it about a year and a half ago and it's been really enjoyable for me. The problem with MMOs is i can only focus on one at a given time due to the time sink. The other thing is the more that come out is kind of a problem for the genre as opposed to other genres. New MMOs usually launch with limited content. Once you play that a bit you move on to the next one. And with so many mmos in development, odds are you'll never go back to that MMO you played for 3 weeks 6 months ago. Edit: mmos have a hard time differentiating themselves. I like FFXIV because of the narrative focus and knowing I don't have to play it everyday to enjoy it so it appeals to me for those reasons. I played WoW back when it launched for sevetal years and it was great but where I am in my life now, the game's focus isn't what I want. Grind heavy f2p mmos are ones i won't even install. F2P mechanics are not fun, artificial lengthened grinds to get you to buy stuff. I prefer a monthly standard sub to mmos along with the purchase of major expansions like WoW and FFXIV do.
I think the obsession on creating "The next big game" really hinders a lot of what goes into making a game nowadays. Using Elden Ring as an example, when the game blew up many modern day devs noted how unlike Elden Ring is to a "Good game" since it didn't follow or use lots of todays gaming practices which are taught in the industry. Instead of focusing on creating good, last longing games we've been getting short sighted cash grabs and uncreative remakes. Older, once loved gaming companies also have been literally riding on the success of their predecessors tricking long time fans that they're still the same companies with a possibility of one day finally making a good game while they tarnish the legacies players stay for. Gaming communites are also to blame for the state of things, lots of players don't just play for fun anymore. With things like streams and making videos being such a huge part of the industry now making content and money also plays a part of what game gets played for the audience. That's why hidden indie games blow up every time the phrase , "They're aren't any good games out atm" is tossed around and why you see players basically only playing what content creators play despite their being so many good games out. Games being released nowadays are on a whole other level than what they used to be and require MUCH more work than ever. Lots of players don't understand this and jump to complaining and blaming devs when a game comes out with some issues. The "anomaly" known as Baldurs Gate 3 is only an "anomaly" because their community understood what goes into making a game and supported them throughout the blasphemous phase known as EARLY ACCESS, ooo spooky. Thank god for the patience of fans of D&D and turn based games. There's much more to the current state of things though it's not just the big bad companies but community, player, content creators, publishers all had a essential part in the current state of things. Thankfully creativity seems to be a hot commodity for alot of up and coming games and publishers so I feel like we're going to get lots of bangers soon.
Love that you mentioned BG3. I didn't realize early access would last 3 freaken years, but after the amazing Divinity Original Sin 2, I have complete faith in Larian studios and was glad to be along for the ride. Most of the things I gave feedback on were significantly improved. It makes me- and I'm sure many others who had the same feedback -feel a sense of pride alongside the devs of what looks to be an absolutely amazing experience. Can't wait another 2 weeks!
Been here since your Smite vids, always appreciate the combo of sarcasm and hope that you put in your work! Thank you for pushing past the emotion of "MMO's suck rn" to address the real issue of jaded players and recycled mechanics. I know personally, some of the QoL features put in more modern MMO's made it feel too effortless and boring. (ex. Quest pathing) While I've played quite a few, I still have a hole in my heart over Earth and Beyond. I don't even like SciFi games, but the execution was so good, and I've never seen anything like it since
One new MMO blew me away last year: Zenith: The Last City. The VR-Enviroment blew me away. I think the times of true new experiences in front of a keyboard is over. Sure, Zenith is/was pretty indi in all aspects but being truly inside that small pioneerish world was truly breathtaking. Just my opinion but that game felt truly *new*
I was making this exact point earlier about unrealistic timelines, crunch culture, and margins being priority absolutely stifles the devs creativity and passion and creates this over abundant need for efficiency in the process rather than really focusing in on creating an amazing experience.
My guess: People woke up to the pointless grinds and predatory in-game shops. It's also turning into a genre for the already converted. Like these dumbass damage-rotations where you have to dial a phone number each time you do damage don't exist anywhere else in gaming, for a reason. Like imagine if you had to do that every time you switched weapons in Elden Ring or Zelda. "Sorry Link, but you didn't press the buttons in the correct order, so now you just do 1/5th of your optimal DPS". This genre needs a complete reinvention if it wants to be relevant again imo, and I don't think any of these old juggernauts will do it. "It's not worse, it's different" That's some cope dude. Gaming is 100% worse now. Look at the big releases coming this fall. It's just super sparse apart from Starfield and Alan Wake 2. Gaming have stagnated like crazy the last 5-10 years and, like you even said, monetization wise it's just a nightmare. If you're into GAAS and mobile games, then yes it's a "great" time to be a gamer, but if you want those big, innovative titles that aren't built around some shitty monetization it's a complete desert right now. Games like Starfield or RDR2 take forever to get out and there are very few ones even being green lit. Heck if this list proves anything is that there are really just 1 AAA MMO being made, The Riot MMO, which just proves my point even more. This is only happening in gaming too tbh, movies, books, TV etc are fine, which is why I feel grown-ups will flee this market more and more. Why spend time and money on this shit when you can just get an HBO sub for 8 euros and get some quality entertainment that doesn't insult your time and feel like a casino?
I feel like a good point when talking about the golden age of gaming is to remember it used to be a vehicle for monetization before that with arcades to eat up your quarters. The modern market is more returning to its original form.
I pray every day to find a game just like one I played before and I kid you not it's Anthem. The speed, freedom, wandering in open world for hours with no goal, the spectacle. I miss it dearly.
A fellow anthem enjoyer! Don't get me wrong the game had a plethora of issues but the gameplay? Definitely top tier, I wish any other game made you feel remotely as cool while in an exosuit
Step one with MMO's is you have to do what tons of people say they don't want - Force cooperation. People may feel like they want to play MMO's solo but that does not create the kind of memories that will result in attachment.
In addition to this, MMOs need to stop chasing the WoW 2010 sub count numbers. If you make a game where cooperation is forced, in 2023, you're not going to have 12 million people playing. You'd be extremely lucky to ever break a million. If you force cooperation, you need to also accept that your MMO isn't going to be a pick up and play type game.
@@seanwilliams7655 This. And this is primarily why imo MMOs have stopped chasing the forced cooperation, and why they opted for matchmaking in content where you need cooperation instead of going to a town/city/hub asking for people to said content with you or help you with it.
I think a lot of whats hard for newer MMOs is they never really get a fair chance. The second they are released they are compared to other MMOs that have been out for decades. MMOs that have had several expansions and updates that make them the MMO they are today. The new MMO has to some how compete with that even though that isn't necessarily possible. Of course a new MMO won't be polished the same as ESO or have the content WoW has....it just came out. But gamers will still mention lack of content as if that new MMO should have as much content as FF14 does now.
Yeah, so many people are quick to forget that. "Why doesn't this have much content?" Probably because it's not even 3 years old. And the thing is too with FF14, not many have known FF14 before it became as good as it is now. I remember when it was the worst FF in the franchise. Granted it's amazing now, but it was only after it had taken a *huge* risk of basically rebuilding the game from the ground up, and then improved into what it is now through years and years of perfecting their craft.
I think the game design of the mmos have stagnated. Besides guild wars 2 and a very few others, everybody just copies Wow with a diferent graphics and them complais that the playerbase didn't stabilized. Every fu#$%&g game all you do is kill 10 monsters or collect 10 itens everytime.
Yeah, Dragonflight may be good but Blizzard has already burned too many bridges with WoW and its playerbase. I played WoW from TBC to Cataclysm and then from Legion to Shadowlands, and I just got tired of all the bullshit they kept pulling and have wrote the game off for good. Doesn’t matter how good Dragonflight is now, I have no desire to go back at this point. And a lot of other people feel the same way now.
Is Dragonglight actually good? Seems so boring to me. Cataclysm recycled theme, with generic dragons to fight, with copy and paste Guild Wars 2 mount system. Idk... first wow expansion I didn't buy, and I still feel zero desire to play.
@@vbm4780 Nah, I stopped playing after around 2 months. Same old world quest system, too many currencies and different ways to upgrade and get gear.. I just play WoW Classic now.. retail died off a while ago, atleast for me.
As someone in his 30's with two kids under 5 and a full time job, I've been enjoying the hell out of Mortal Online 2. It doesn't hold your hand or put shiny glowing trails to guide you around the map, and that's why I love it, reminds me of my Everquest 1 pvp server days
WoW retail feels like work, FF14 is a snoozefest story game with dogshit combat. GW2 needs a dungeon finder. ESO is just OK. MMOs are just a dying breed.
GW2 is great, one of my favorite MMOs actually. GW2, ESO, WoW, are the 3 I’ve most consistently come back to over the years. Video is discussing the genre as a whole, not singling out individual games. I just put some of my favorite MMOs in the thumb to convey that.
Great video. I agree with a lot of your points. I feel like the main pb with MMOs is that they are meant to last years to be meaningful. As an older guy today, i can no longer invest that much time, even if it was the best MMO in the world. Or if I did, it would be a couple hours here and there and I would be missing out on 90% of the game. TLDR: MMOs are for youngsters at their parents house.
I guess people rediscovered the joys of short solo gaming sessions with the steam deck. I don't have 4 hours uninterrupted to make it worth logging in eve online since decades.
Great video with some terrific points that I agree with strongly. There is one thing you said though that I think needs some modification that brings us to one part of the equation that you missed: we do NOT want new. We want newer, better and innovative forms of the familiar. Most people will constantly go back to what they have formed habits around that they enjoy or feel they need in some way. It is why quitting smoking is so hard for some despite the extremely mild physical aspect of the addiction. It the habits, the routine, the familiar. If you go back and look at this video again, you will see you recommended people try games others love (an excellent idea), but you did not mention going to a new type of game. You don't need innovation or improved iteration to enjoy and entirely new type of experience. Yet we don't do that. We want the ultimate version of what we already know we like. Developers have a greater challenge than we give them a credit for because they have to deliver something new and exciting without upsetting the apple cart so much that people say "this is not may game/genre any more". Look at Assassins Creed. The first open world titles in that genre were amazing (with no cash shops or microtransactions to criticize) yet some fans were up in arms because the focus on the original game play loop and story arcs were not similar enough. As you said, the gaming industry is different because we are different, but its also because we are in many ways unwilling to be different at the same time. Catering to people's most treasured hobbies and memories frankly sucks because it is nearly impossible and so I try to give all developers that are not making obviously insanely predatory games a break because of it.
Been playing Ultima Online since it came out.. I am 36 years old and the game came out in 1997.. I was 11 years of age when it came out and I have gone back to it on and off ever since then..
Been playing Eve Online since I was 16, which is literally half of my life at this point. Been running a group in Eve for that long as well. I love traditional on-rails mmo's, but sandboxes where players are the content and the entire essence of the game is your group and how it interacts with other groups and the world is what keeps me coming back. I don't know that I'll ever be able to walk away from this game.
I shudder at how much cash he spent. When I tried it you had to research like each part of the ship and each research would take like 30 days and you had to pay to play so I was like fuck that and bailed lol
I really really love how Corepunk looks, can't wait to play that. Blizzard Survival MMO sounds fun & Ashes Of Creation looks fun too. nothing else has stud out to me
I've been thinking a lot about this recently too. There's games I want to play but I feel like everyone's moved past them (myself included), even if just mentally. I want to stop feeling like I have to rush through everything. I miss when the only source of info I had was a physical strategy guide, or the one MVP who just happened to make a post on the old school GameFAQS. I want to just get lost and suck at games again, and be okay with that
DAoC was my first MMO and I loved it. I hope that Camelot Unchained is good, but honestly it's been so long and there's been so much drama I'm not sure I'm even going to see it launch.
My nostalgia revolves much more around the time and effort I had available to invest back then. There lies the difference between truly enjoying gaming vs being burdened with what it costs you to play or how much time and energy you take out of real-life shit in order to keep this hobby as an adult.
For me. FFXIV has been the only game that I feel respected my time. It feels so chill compared to WOW where I felt I had to play close to every day to be up to date. Now I raid with my guild like 1-2 days a week. And in general just play together whenever we feel like it.
I really miss the days where I had time for MMOs. Simpler times.
Quitter. Lol
Lol exactly
After a decade in the military I now have time foe mmos :) living life in reverse, simple times
Skill issue , I have more time than ever .
Well, isn't that a fvckin mood. lol
Force: This MMO is the next new thing!!!!
Force after release: What Happened to MMos video #27
Great video force. If I might add one thing that ruins MMOs (and gaming as a whole) is the culture of min-maxing everything from the start, the plethora of "Ultimate beginners guide". We just don't sit down and play anymore, we don't experience the game as a game, we only want to be efficient.
On the other hand I now know that I don't have the time nor the energy for MMOs anymore, grouping up, sitting in a raid for 6h straight, that isn't feasible anymore. That's why I got interested in the survival genre, where it scratches that mmo itch, but I can play on my own at my place, if it has mmo-lite aspects the better.
True, I try to play through them without help with most, to get the best leveling experience. I usually only start using those guides later when needed.
I got into ESO recently, played for 30 levels without any guides really, and then used a beginners tank guide for how to play tank in it. I think people should start doing that moreso to get their own, unique and fun experience. That's not on the developers though (although they've plenty of problems that hurt the genre)
I actually decided to just play Hogwarts legacy lately and not look things up and min max. Lo and behold, I found myself enjoying it much more than most other games I've played recently.
@@KjKasethere is literally nothing to min-max in hogwarts legacy lol. Game plays by itself even in the hardest difficulty.
@@Kroiiz3 like looking up guides and finding the fastest way to unlock things or achieve things? I just played it organically without looking things up and minmaxing my time spent to make the game as trivial as possible as fast as possible...
I completely agree, hoever I must point out that nothing is forcing you to use those guides. Obviously, a large portion of the community WILL use guides, but if it ruins your experience... don't use them.
What a great video Force. As someone born in 82, now 41, that grew with ZX Spectrum, NES, Dune 2, Warcraft and later WoW I wholeheartedly subscribe the sentiments in this video.
WoW was my game for like a decade and even tho I fondly look back at the first time I’ve played WoW and the first few years of novelty, I know that those were once in a lifetime experience that I will never be able to repeat. That is why I’ve never tried to play WoW Classic, the nostalgia is a strong drug but not enough for me not to remember how shitty the game was compared to now (mechanicaly, the grinding, etc.).
Recently played a lot of GW2 and still had a lot of fun, but MMOs will never be the same for me after WoW almost 20 years ago, and that is OK.
I do find enjoyment in a lot of Indy games nowadays, for example Hollow Knight.
Again, great video mate. ❤
Bout the same for me except I actually went back to classic WoW, it was still a very fun experience. I also went back and played classic servers for other games like DaoC and still found them more rewarding than modern MMOs. It's nothing like experiencing it fresh for the first time, especially when everyone was blind back then, but the elements of why they were such addictive games was still there and I can honestly say modern games don't have a lot of those elements. That sense of risk/reward and working hard towards a reward is just missing. Also the fact that everyone was on a static server helped a lot, you'd learn most of the people on your server over time (compared to modern sharding BS). I think New World was the last MMO I played and the slow incremental upgrades (more akin to Destiny loot) and less strategic combat just made the whole thing less rewarding. "Strategic" RPG combat in general is just lacking from modern MMOs, they've all gone the route of action combat and done away with most class archetypes and just turned every class into pure DPS.
-The way I'll know whether something like the LotR MMO will suck is if they only have 5-6 active skills on their bar and "item power" on the gear. It will be one of those games fun for a few weeks but then fall into mediocrity like the rest. I've kinda stop looking forward to MMOs in general and beel looking almost exclusively at survival games. Out of all those games he listed the only one I'm thinking will hold my interest for more than a couple weeks will be Nightengale.
Another fun indy game is chained echoes if your interested
This hits...so true
60$basegame+30$dlc+12$ subscription every month vs genshin impact/mabinogi/eso where you buy a subscription for like 2 years and you own all the dlc if you spend the crowns on the dlc and then can play for free if you so choose
warframe buy a few warframe slots and a few arms slots
path of exile a inventory expansion
albion online you dont even need to buy anything even vip doesnt matter in terms of progression to mid game and by the time it does matter you can easily own it via in game
eve online you need to buy a subscription for a few years to quickly unlock the mountain of research and honestly come back to the game after the 2 years that it will take to be done but is a viable option to skip the bs of the game and then go completely free from there
no mans sky is still free 7 days to die too in terms of playing with ones friends to so many good games it just takes people to actually try it and find ones that are best played with friends as its no joke humans are social creatures and are you paying for a group at times games are better as a group free as in pay once own forever souls likes fps fighters est if its known for good online i may give it a shot switch being king for these kinds of games
some groups are not good to game with but to train with get it ima mute the trash talker and practice against him and how he team plays because its the trash talkers who are in some of the cases the dude who knows where he wants to be in a team battle which may get him extra damage for clout vs skill he may get extra damage even a extra kill by constantly playing behind the team but not much more then that
I went black to classic and enjoyed the hell out of it. I did all the things I didn't have the time or skill for in vanilla like raiding naxx and becoming a full geared world pvp menace.
Met new friends and achieved goals and a bunch of noobs like me were around that didnt have everything figured out but we did it together.
I recommend jumping on the classic era now. Might be the last chance to get a hit of that wow vanilla drug. For me I finished the game and I'm done with it but what an amazing ride.
Another reason people don't think gaming is as exciting or fun anymore is the fact the there has been a lot less innovation in gaming in the 10 years compared to the leaps of progress made 2 or 3 decades ago. I think its simply what it is, most technology early on has a boom of innovation before quickly leveling off. The massive improvements made in graphics, performance, and game design were happening so fast for us as kids. These days games released in 2023 can be great but there not always distinguishable from a game from 2013.
Well said Dennis, yeah as someone your age, and has been gaming for over 20 years...more like 30, the lack of novelty definitely is a huge factor
My problem is that each MMO is like offering a whole new 'job' for the most part. They all need a good time investment to get the most out of and with new games/my old MMOs with their own communities of friends I love to play with I just can't hop around as I used to.
Wouldn't be so bad if we got to do it in our own pace but seasonal and social fomo turn everything in a race. My 2 cents
EverQuest opened a new server going back to the start and it's been a blast. So busy it's hard to level soloing so grouping is really easy. My first MMO experience was EverQuest just as the first expansion was coming out. Blew my mind and was like seeing Pong back in the 70's for the first time. Setting off a great big smile followed by, 'Did not see this coming but I like it.'
Doing blind prog for various MMOs really has helped my enjoyment for them (both leveling and endgame). Tough part is of course finding a group, but yeah, I wish this was a bigger, more established thing.
Generally moving away from [efficiency is better] has helped kindled joy for the act of play instead of winning.
Exactly this!! This is what people have become blinded with and I rather just go around blind into a game and figure out stuff by myself as I play!
I started to play RuneScape ironman to fill this mmo void.
You hit the nail on the head with this one. Monetization feels like the primary focus for all the games I’ve tried recently . Diablo 4 being the latest
I want games that force the social aspect, I want to feel engaged and molded by player drama and events.
Yeah I'm 45 and been playing MMOs my whole life. I've had so many good times in games like WoW, Ultima Online, Aion, Wildstar and GW2.
The problem I keep coming up against is that gamers have changed. The friends I used to play with all got married and had kids. Playing for three days solid with a few hours sleep just seems like a distant memory now.
I'm looking forward to Chrono Oddesy but the MMO I'm betting on is Ashes of Creation. If that game doesn't do well I think I'll give up on MMOs ever coming back to how they were back in the day.
Im really just desperate to find a good MMO again. I can’t describe the dull empty feeling from games lately. I’m 31 next month work a full time job with 2 kids so I don’t have time like I use to when I was a kid/teen..early 20s but I do miss that addictive feeling wanting to play a game SO BAD and FINALLY have the time to play and get so excited it feels like Christmas as a kid again.
That's never going to happen. It's time to put your toys away.
I can't help but reminisce about the good old days of immersive MMORPGs. The nostalgia hits hard, but hey, let's hope for a bright future and the revival of epic MMO! Great job on this video, it made my day!
Immersion takes time, and people don't want to spend that these days.
I think part of the issue is that back then connecting with people was an awesome experience because we had less ability to do so, and now we’re so connected that we’re trying to find ways to disconnect. I was all up in WoW back in vanilla with a guild and everything, and now unless it’s comprised ofmy circle of friends then I have very little interest of playing games with random people
I love the degree of investigation you do. I thoroughly enjoy your videos and perspective in the gaming world. Thank you!!!
Everything you said was spot on. In my 50’s and experienced everything you spoke of.
I, like many of you, got started in MMOs when I was young. I was 12 when I started EQ1 and it was my second life.
Not as much time these days, but I would honestly enjoy a game that was a deep dive again.
Force, Ashes of Creation is built on the fundamentals of what you’re discussing here in this video.
Yes, you’re in your right to be skeptical, and no it won’t be the ‘WoW Killer’ or ‘savior of all MMO’s’ but it will NEVER be pay to win or pay to convenience, which is INCREDIBLY rare in today’s age of gaming. That combined with the new ideas and passion of making an MMO for the people that loved the old days of MMO’s, is something to be celebrated and encouraged in my opinion.
Intrepid also just hired Bill Trost the co-creator of EverQuest as their new lead game designer. Anyone interested in seeing a company doing their best to bring back the original love for MMO’s to the modern era of gaming, should check out Ashes of Creation.
We should support those that care and stand true to their principles, even if that game won’t be for everyone that prefers the modern takes on MMO’s.
ya we will be playing that when we are 60 yueas old
@@jjswigger8591 haha original and funny
Seriously, you did a real service in researching aspects of the Internet and Gaming history that others would rather leave forgotten. Well done
The thing is we grew up, and the gaming industry evolved.
Even if the same 'favorite' MMO comes out today and we have no memories of playing it before, we'll unlikely find the same experience.
I was super hyped for EQ Next.. Simply because the idea behind it was so unique. The building aspect and different things on each server based on what the players build or destroy 😎 Plus EQ started it all so it felt like a rebirth, the next evolution!!! Then it got canceled..😢
EQ started it all? No it didn't.. Ultima Online was out in 1997 and before that there were a few others and we had MUDs which were the predecessors of MMO's..
@@Eyrothath Umm, I was there… I lived it. Nobody played Ultima.. This has never been a debate until new people show up that don’t have a clue what they are talking about. I said what I said.
@@Turtleshellon UO at its peak had 250,000 subscribers, people played it.. The active UO outlands shard (a private shard) has 2,000-3,000 consecutive players logging in daily.. Everquest has about 7.3k players and had around 1.2 million subs at it's peak. official UO shards still have around 4,000+ active subscribers, many who still login daily (mostly on Atlantic) Not sure when or what you played on, but A LOT of people were playing UO, especially during the AoS period is when it hit its peak, that was around 2003.. And in 2004 it got a swift kick in the ass by World of Warcraft..
@@Eyrothath Bro EQ had over 250k on a server.. wtf are you talking about. I can show you a player count for every game out. Nobody played Ultima and nothing was innovative about it. Like I said and everybody knows, EQ started it all. You are the first person ever to disagree…
@@Turtleshellon you can't put 250k players on a single server back then.. You can now with mega servers like Albion has.. There's charts out there. EverQuest peaked at around 1.2 subscribers.. UO peaked at around 250-300k.. the maximum number of players for a WoW server alone is 3,000-5,000 as far as how many players a server can support at a time.. UO was innovative at the time it came out. It ranks number 1 is almost every article even new ones when it comes to player housing when a gaming website decides to rank player housing systems.. The only game it would fall behind is Star Wars Galaxies. UO is among the top MMOs in history and was in the Guinness book twice during it's time 1999-2000 for various reasons. Today there is roughly around 4,000 active UO players, most of them are on Atlantic, another 2,000 consecutively logon to UO Outlands..
A well-done presentation!
I’m not probably in the typical gamer demographic. At age 64, what you expressed here would be what I have felt for probably as long as you have been alive. LOL That’s nothing against you or anyone else younger than me - it’s just numbers.
I have been craving a game that I can just enjoy without all the hype, micro-transactions, etc. Over the past 15 or so years, I have found a few that checked all my boxes, but then they shut down and my search continued.
Currently I play BDO but have pretty much achieved all that I want from it and am eagerly looking forward to several of those on your list. I agree that Nightingale seems promising, as do Chrono Odyssey and the anticipated juggernaut Starfield - perhaps not a true MMO, but a game to play, nonetheless. I hope at least one of those can provide what I am looking for.
And while I agree with your assessment that the focus of the industry has changed to be more about the money than the art, could not the same be said for just about anything else? Throughout the entertainment industry, this same sort of evolution has been going on. Remember that line from the government handler in the movie The Incredibles: “It’s always Money, Money, Money! We can’t keep doing this Bob!”
I’m playing Black Desert right now because I love grinding when it’s fun to press your buttons and I also always return to it because my gear isn’t automatically irrelevant. It’s a game my buddy and I love to play even if most of the time we are progressing our characters separately. I am craving a fresh start on a brand new MMO though.
My hype list:
1. Riot MMO
2. LotR MMO
3. Chrono Odyssey
isnt bdo pvp like top tier
riot mmo is cancelled...
@@bighosnl No it isn’t.
@@Draethar did they resume it? I’m pretty sure it was cancelled with the layoffs
@@Draethar i just googled it, it got reset and will go dark for years. So that’s basically cancelled. Gonna be past 2030 most likely
tbh after playing mmorpgs for 15+ years i dont think me or any1 else that played a lot of time will ever have the same satisfaction and hunger for any new mmorpg.
sure i'll try them all but its just so hard for any of them to keep me playing nowdays
True. My biggest problem is I still have time to play them, just not 12hrs a day. I can't play vanilla WoW anymore, but I still wanna play MMORPGs. But any that aren't super elitist make the experience WAY too braindead. No challenge questing, etc. So there's no happy medium of time and challenge. Sucks.
Yeah.. the thrill is gone.
Great points in this video. For those of us who have been gaming for decades, games just don't have the same spark anymore that would light up the imagination. So many of them are obviously made with the number one goal of getting in your wallet, instead of being fun first. That why Elden Ring was truly something special, especially now days. It was a call back to a better era in gaming. It was unique, challenging, and the world and lore were absolutely amazing.
The unknown in elden ring really brought back that feeling of exploration and fear that I had when I was first playing mmos like WoW. It's hard to replicate that feeling and as i get older it's increasingly hard to let myself get fully absorbed into a game.
ngl I didn't even like Elden Ring. Just felt like a bunch of recycled content, quirky fights, and awful scaling. First FromSoftware game I didn't finish. I get that they're changing for what people want. I liked their older stuff. Probably going to be left behind and not buy any of their products anymore. That's fine though ^_^. Maybe another company will fill in that niche that FromSoftware is abandoning and I can buy their stuff instead :).
@@aaronsolomon7404 bro u are so passive aggressive i almost threw up my banana cream pie
@@aaronsolomon7404i agree. Elden ring was too empty for my tastes
Still enjoying myself in Guild Wars 2 and Black Desert Online so I won't get bored anytime soon.
Wayfinders hooked me and I can’t wait for that to come out, been a long time since I planned on putting a bunch of my free time into a game coming out.
Diablo had me hooked until they started nerfing everything every single day because of the 1%ers just like Outriders did but luckily I got my refund and I’ll play the game when it’s actually complete because I have zero interest in making a new character every 90 days to enjoy the new content 🤷♂️
Baldurs gate 3 is going to be THAT game for me. 100%
Agree 100% 👍(especially on the why and how of game development (&monetization), especially by the big game studios). As for how many... I hope they somehow space out over the next 3-4 years (probably will, always delays). 2023 could really use some more MMO launches, real lull last year and this year. And if one can be 'the one' (at least for myself), that would be great. As for Camelot Unchained, no idea how that will ever finish but they do keep working on it.
I believe for a lot of us, like has already been said, things were just different "back then". There's a lot to that that I think we consider and realize, but I believe there is even more to it that we don't always pay attention to.
For instance, there weren't a lot of choices back then - or at the very least, certainly not nearly as many as there are now. When big hitters came out, they gained an audience quickly. A significant part of that was because the game was new and the concept was refreshing and somewhat unexplored, but I think a lot of it was because there just wasn't much saturation then. People had yet to stick their flag in the ground and say "this is MY game", and I think a lot of that was because before that most games were a one-shot, ~40 hour experience.
I should note that I can't speak for all developers or development studios by saying this, but as a developer I can say that the idea of "trying to make the next big thing" isn't as black and white as it may seem. I totally get how it appears that way at face value - it's a completely logical conclusion to come to and, frankly, it may be the case for some developers. There ARE those of us out there, however, that aren't this way but we can't ignore what has worked in other games or what is liked in other games. Part of the great thing of there being so many games is that there are SO MANY opportunities for developers to innovate to make their game feel even the slightest bit different than another. This is good for everyone.
'Access to information being different' was mentioned and I 100% feel that this is a MAJOR cause for the shift from the way things used to be - arguably more so than anything else. There used to be a mystery or some enigmatic presence for a game and that instilled excitement, suspense and a craving for wanting to know more. Some of this remains today, but it's largely diluted by all the information that's available now before the game EVER comes out! A lot of marketing a game now feels less about the game itself, but more about competing with other titles so it gets noticed.
I think there is some manner of possibility for a game that may recapture what some of us experienced before, but with so many who never experienced the way gaming was "back then" in both the gaming playerbase as well as the development community, I don't feel it's likely. The environment that online gaming offers to new players now, MMOs specifically, just simply isn't the same as it was for many of us and, frankly, there are a lot more of the players that never experienced that than the players that did. As such, the design motivations they may have or the expectations players may have for the games will come from a different opinion and experience.
I think the biggest "hits" will likely come from titles that never intended to be such. These titles are often made from a concept of "fun first" or the like. As a developer, that's what I want to develop. As a player, that's what I want to play - I couldn't care less if it's AAA or not.
Try to play a game for what it is. Try NOT to play it and compare it to what it could be. No matter the game, a lot of heart and soul goes into it - maybe not from everyone involved, but definitely most of them.
Games used to feel like games. Now they feel like vehicles for monetisation (i.e. products). Such a true comment. I want to go back in time to when the PS2 was the latest console. Games were absolutely incredible back then.
I would imagine there are just teams of MBAs inventing "player retention" mechanics designed to make you feel like you have to play so they can point to a quantitative metric and ignore how qualitatively awful the game is.
Nice vid! I have made the exact same points in my own video 2 weeks ago, you hit the spot when it comes to Gaming feeling boring, great work!
I graduated HS in 2003, then WoW came out and the rest was history. I honestly think that release captured lightning in a bottle, no other time in gaming came close to it for me. All my friends and S/O's were playing on our server... we had a decent guild, shit was wild. I don't ever expect that type of phenomena to happen again but I'll take even a fraction of that feeling! Looking forward to AoC and the Riot MMO whenever they release.
It will happen again as it has happened many times since.
classic wow really is the GOAT of MMO's, playing recently and appreciating the love put into that game over 20 years ago. Honestly no game even comes close to sucking you in & sucking you dry like that
@@carlcarlson5553 it won't happen again, as this video has mentioned. There are TONS of MMOs. Back in early 2000 you could count them
@@freedonx MMOs won't come back until SAO style VR is a thing.
you know whats funny, the feeling we are chasing can ONYL happen when we were that age LOL think about it. max age was like 25
Well said Force. I've watched a fair share of these kinds of videos, for sure. But you've got lots of good points that I agree with.
There is too many options. No one is open to taking big risks anymore. They are too costly to make. Achievement and nostalgia play heavy but with cash shops and wallet to look cool all that goes out the window. There is a ton of reasons MMOs are unlikely to ever hit the same.
Just wanna say thanks for this really great video. Made me feel super nostalgic, but also reminded me some of these things we keep seeing again and again, are still new to someone else. I think its a good perspective to keep, even though the De'ja Vu is definitely real.
HE doesnt want yo moni
@@tobikanawa I want yo moni :)
Great video. All of these points are true: like MMOs came on the scene in an era where online social interaction was novel and that helped them, and yeah, the cash shop / monetization in newer games is a problem, but I think there's another major factor that makes people check out of these new MMOs early imo. WoW no doubt had offered a really great gameplay experience, but gameplay isn't enough. MMOs are deep investment massive world games, and for people to deeply invest in the massive world, they first have to give a shit about it.
I played EQ and WC3 around the same time and liked them for two completely different reasons. EQ was great because it was really the only game like it, so it's appeal for me was the gameplay component. And not that I didn't come to find EQ's lore interesting, WC3 at its core was SO good at aesthetic, worldbuilding, story and characters. When I heard I can do the EQ thing in a world with Warcraft's flavor, that's when I knew WoW was going to be huge.
In the early 2000s WoW's major appeal was that you could play through the Warcraft world from the ground-level perspective of all those cool units you were familiar with and maybe run into Illidan/Arthas/Kael'thas or explore Mount Hyjal. You pulled in WC3 fans and EQ/MMO fans. I was both, and was wholly bought in.
A ton of people already cared deeply about the world.. of Warcraft and wanted more of it. This is essential for a game that requires a lot of investment. If you look at the top MMOs that have staying power it's WoW, FF, ESO, etc. These are huge franchises that people have a long history with.
As solid as I think many MMOs are gameplay wise, like New World, Rift, etc I just didn't care enough about the world, thus I didn't care about investing into it. A huge percentage of MMOs that launch have to establish a buy in to the story, world and characters to get you first to CARE about investing into your character and their world imo. None of them are going to be able to be EverQuest where the gameplay experience is so unique that you'll get invested in the world because you have no other options.
Unless MMO developers are confident they can deliver a powerful story/character/world hook at the beginning of their MMO game,
I think most of them would benefit greatly from first introducing their worlds through another smaller, less resource intensive genre, or in mediums that are better for storytelling. Then once you know people care, you can create an MMO world people want to invest in. But yeah, you'll still need to nail the gameplay too.
If I had to guess, as long as they nail the gameplay, Riot's League MMO or the new Amazon LotR MMO will do well.
Even if you didn't care about many things EQ or WC3 are, they were still great games to just play with friends or meet people to have fun with. Sometimes the boring methodical mechanics force players to endure together and gave time to socialise, making strong bonds. Maybe you just like playing the 100s of different custom games in WC3. They were just great social places to be, something that was a big deal before social media, discord, smart phones, free to play multiplayer and even wikis/youtube guides. Modern games are all competitive or action packed, there's no time for socialising and no time to explain.
Agreed. This is why I was so heavily invested in Star Wars Galaxies and still play today on SWGemu. Love Star Wars lore and being part of that world.
Complettly agree with you. Great video , this could have been a 1 hour podcast and would listen to it all btw. Thank you
The problem with 40 MMO's is that your friends will never be playing the same one as you at the same time.
Never had irl friends play the same MMO with me. I usually solo experience it and then make friends along the way tbh.
Watched Asmond's reaction of this. Excellent video. Thought you were reading my mind at times.
I think a lot of people including me just feel like the game that should exist still doesn't exist yet. Like one example, me and my friends constantly speculating about GTA 6 should have all these cool realistic features that would make the game feel like you're truly playing a next-gen realistic crime sim. But sadly the way games are monetize these days, they'll never focus on giving us a cool game experience like that. That's why gaming is dying for a lot of people, because the game they want isn't being made.
MMO's just aren't what they used to be anymore. I was heavily invested in Final Fantasy 11 and WoW back in the days. Nowadays, every game has an online mode so MMO's just don't have that spark anymore.
Yep. And is why we'll be seeing MMO-Lites or MMOs that don't require the player to rely or require other players for content, and if it does, it has matchmaking.
FF11 was my first entrance into MMOs. Going back and playing it now is a trip. Its changed a ton, but the environments still hit all the nostalgia buttons.
Try out Horizonxi if you havent already. Its a free privatr server thats brought back classic FF11. The level cap is going to be set at 75 for all future expansions, and theyre changing a lot of the problems people had with it to be in line with what we loved about classic.
@@inkwell60 dude i have been wanting to do this, i never got to paly cuz in canada u needed a CC and i was too young,
I'm now a Jaded Gamer. That back in my day feeling is dominating and nostalgia definitely skews my taste. Too many choices now...i actively ignore the monetization. We spoilt for choice and i don't have the money to keep up with the addiction of discovering new experiences. Being a 45 year old gamer...I've slowed down naturally.
people aren't going to spend hours on end exploring a world unless there's a pre-existing desire to explore that world. LOTR and Warcraft III created that desire for WoW (no, technically azeroth isn't middle earth...but yes it is, or at least it scratched that itch)
I have no desire to explore the world of "Dragnorox" because I have no clue what that even is. I couldn't name a single character or tell you why anyone should care about them. before I played a second of WoW I was already invested in Arthas, the elves, the orcs, etc, which drove me to explore that world.
I really enjoy your videos Force. Just honest opinions and thoughts without getting too nerdy. Just like a conversation about gaming I'd have with a friend. Thanks !
Gaming has become way too mainstream. The greedy corporations have moved in and removed the soul from games, and finding gems is always gunna be hit and miss from now on.
I have hopes for Pantheon and Em8er. That’s about it.
I lost count of how many times I nodded my head, said "AMEN", or raised a fist with you on SO MANY points you make about how it is vs. how it was. Love your videos as always. Thank you for this one!
There's a beautiful blog post called "Game Design Mimetics (Or, What Happened to Game Design?) that I think speaks to this so well.
This was really great man, I enjoy your channel and perspective a lot. I agree whole heartedly. I want the era of games where they are sold as an artful, immersive experience made by huge nerds who are stoked to make games. Elden Ring was a great example. Big wig capitalists need to hear us all say "I'm going to play this for a day or so and drop it" when they make the multi-pop up cash grab game making style.
Really looking forward to Monsters & Memories.. also sounds like there might be a slight possibility of an Everquest 3..
Love these sit down and talk kind of videos man. Also, I have been saying the same thing for years! Games used to be made for the GAME and feel like a GAME where as now they are made to monetize and/or get you "hooked". Its really shit, and even (or especially) diablo 4 felt this way. A prime, recent example of this. Everything these AAA companies do makes the game feel extremely artificial instead of just...a game.
Such a great distillation of the reasons for the hole in our hearts. I hadn't really considered the novelty component and how years of gaming experience plays into that. You're my primary source of gaming news Force, keep up the excellent critical reporting. That said, I'd rather you were directing the development of the new MMO we've all been waiting for.
I am currently playing FFXIV, I started it about a year and a half ago and it's been really enjoyable for me.
The problem with MMOs is i can only focus on one at a given time due to the time sink. The other thing is the more that come out is kind of a problem for the genre as opposed to other genres. New MMOs usually launch with limited content. Once you play that a bit you move on to the next one. And with so many mmos in development, odds are you'll never go back to that MMO you played for 3 weeks 6 months ago.
Edit: mmos have a hard time differentiating themselves. I like FFXIV because of the narrative focus and knowing I don't have to play it everyday to enjoy it so it appeals to me for those reasons. I played WoW back when it launched for sevetal years and it was great but where I am in my life now, the game's focus isn't what I want. Grind heavy f2p mmos are ones i won't even install. F2P mechanics are not fun, artificial lengthened grinds to get you to buy stuff. I prefer a monthly standard sub to mmos along with the purchase of major expansions like WoW and FFXIV do.
mmo with terrible pvp systems are no go, also all the boss fights are in the same small cube rooms.....why cant they make end game DUNGEONS?
Loved that video, I could really relate to your views on gaming, my first MMO being Everquest.
I think the obsession on creating "The next big game" really hinders a lot of what goes into making a game nowadays. Using Elden Ring as an example, when the game blew up many modern day devs noted how unlike Elden Ring is to a "Good game" since it didn't follow or use lots of todays gaming practices which are taught in the industry. Instead of focusing on creating good, last longing games we've been getting short sighted cash grabs and uncreative remakes. Older, once loved gaming companies also have been literally riding on the success of their predecessors tricking long time fans that they're still the same companies with a possibility of one day finally making a good game while they tarnish the legacies players stay for.
Gaming communites are also to blame for the state of things, lots of players don't just play for fun anymore. With things like streams and making videos being such a huge part of the industry now making content and money also plays a part of what game gets played for the audience. That's why hidden indie games blow up every time the phrase , "They're aren't any good games out atm" is tossed around and why you see players basically only playing what content creators play despite their being so many good games out.
Games being released nowadays are on a whole other level than what they used to be and require MUCH more work than ever. Lots of players don't understand this and jump to complaining and blaming devs when a game comes out with some issues. The "anomaly" known as Baldurs Gate 3 is only an "anomaly" because their community understood what goes into making a game and supported them throughout the blasphemous phase known as EARLY ACCESS, ooo spooky. Thank god for the patience of fans of D&D and turn based games.
There's much more to the current state of things though it's not just the big bad companies but community, player, content creators, publishers all had a essential part in the current state of things. Thankfully creativity seems to be a hot commodity for alot of up and coming games and publishers so I feel like we're going to get lots of bangers soon.
Love that you mentioned BG3. I didn't realize early access would last 3 freaken years, but after the amazing Divinity Original Sin 2, I have complete faith in Larian studios and was glad to be along for the ride. Most of the things I gave feedback on were significantly improved. It makes me- and I'm sure many others who had the same feedback -feel a sense of pride alongside the devs of what looks to be an absolutely amazing experience. Can't wait another 2 weeks!
Following content creators for what games to play has definitely blinded people to a lot of good games like you mentioned.
If they just remade the original Everquest and improved some of its systems, it would be revolutionary today.
Been here since your Smite vids, always appreciate the combo of sarcasm and hope that you put in your work!
Thank you for pushing past the emotion of "MMO's suck rn" to address the real issue of jaded players and recycled mechanics. I know personally, some of the QoL features put in more modern MMO's made it feel too effortless and boring. (ex. Quest pathing)
While I've played quite a few, I still have a hole in my heart over Earth and Beyond. I don't even like SciFi games, but the execution was so good, and I've never seen anything like it since
One new MMO blew me away last year: Zenith: The Last City. The VR-Enviroment blew me away. I think the times of true new experiences in front of a keyboard is over. Sure, Zenith is/was pretty indi in all aspects but being truly inside that small pioneerish world was truly breathtaking. Just my opinion but that game felt truly *new*
I was making this exact point earlier about unrealistic timelines, crunch culture, and margins being priority absolutely stifles the devs creativity and passion and creates this over abundant need for efficiency in the process rather than really focusing in on creating an amazing experience.
My guess: People woke up to the pointless grinds and predatory in-game shops.
It's also turning into a genre for the already converted. Like these dumbass damage-rotations where you have to dial a phone number each time you do damage don't exist anywhere else in gaming, for a reason. Like imagine if you had to do that every time you switched weapons in Elden Ring or Zelda. "Sorry Link, but you didn't press the buttons in the correct order, so now you just do 1/5th of your optimal DPS".
This genre needs a complete reinvention if it wants to be relevant again imo, and I don't think any of these old juggernauts will do it.
"It's not worse, it's different"
That's some cope dude. Gaming is 100% worse now. Look at the big releases coming this fall. It's just super sparse apart from Starfield and Alan Wake 2. Gaming have stagnated like crazy the last 5-10 years and, like you even said, monetization wise it's just a nightmare.
If you're into GAAS and mobile games, then yes it's a "great" time to be a gamer, but if you want those big, innovative titles that aren't built around some shitty monetization it's a complete desert right now. Games like Starfield or RDR2 take forever to get out and there are very few ones even being green lit. Heck if this list proves anything is that there are really just 1 AAA MMO being made, The Riot MMO, which just proves my point even more.
This is only happening in gaming too tbh, movies, books, TV etc are fine, which is why I feel grown-ups will flee this market more and more. Why spend time and money on this shit when you can just get an HBO sub for 8 euros and get some quality entertainment that doesn't insult your time and feel like a casino?
I genuinely think it's because most of the MMO playerbase is aging and younger players don't have the attention span to be engaged in them
Force, Can you do a video on Ashes of creation until present date?
I feel like a good point when talking about the golden age of gaming is to remember it used to be a vehicle for monetization before that with arcades to eat up your quarters. The modern market is more returning to its original form.
I pray every day to find a game just like one I played before and I kid you not it's Anthem. The speed, freedom, wandering in open world for hours with no goal, the spectacle. I miss it dearly.
A fellow anthem enjoyer! Don't get me wrong the game had a plethora of issues but the gameplay? Definitely top tier, I wish any other game made you feel remotely as cool while in an exosuit
This... 100% this! Well said, this highlights is so very well. THANK YOU! 🍻
Step one with MMO's is you have to do what tons of people say they don't want - Force cooperation. People may feel like they want to play MMO's solo but that does not create the kind of memories that will result in attachment.
Hence why I miss EQ and the friends I made I am still friends with.
In addition to this, MMOs need to stop chasing the WoW 2010 sub count numbers. If you make a game where cooperation is forced, in 2023, you're not going to have 12 million people playing. You'd be extremely lucky to ever break a million. If you force cooperation, you need to also accept that your MMO isn't going to be a pick up and play type game.
@@seanwilliams7655 This. And this is primarily why imo MMOs have stopped chasing the forced cooperation, and why they opted for matchmaking in content where you need cooperation instead of going to a town/city/hub asking for people to said content with you or help you with it.
I think a lot of whats hard for newer MMOs is they never really get a fair chance. The second they are released they are compared to other MMOs that have been out for decades. MMOs that have had several expansions and updates that make them the MMO they are today. The new MMO has to some how compete with that even though that isn't necessarily possible. Of course a new MMO won't be polished the same as ESO or have the content WoW has....it just came out. But gamers will still mention lack of content as if that new MMO should have as much content as FF14 does now.
Yeah, so many people are quick to forget that. "Why doesn't this have much content?" Probably because it's not even 3 years old. And the thing is too with FF14, not many have known FF14 before it became as good as it is now. I remember when it was the worst FF in the franchise. Granted it's amazing now, but it was only after it had taken a *huge* risk of basically rebuilding the game from the ground up, and then improved into what it is now through years and years of perfecting their craft.
I think the game design of the mmos have stagnated. Besides guild wars 2 and a very few others, everybody just copies Wow with a diferent graphics and them complais that the playerbase didn't stabilized. Every fu#$%&g game all you do is kill 10 monsters or collect 10 itens everytime.
Yoo Exoprimal took me by surprise. Watching the trailers never grabbed me but it was free and tried it out and damn actually got me hooked atm
WoW is the only mmo i need right now. The content delivery during this current expansion is top notch. The dev team is doing a great job.
Just a shame that they fucked up too many times and lost too many players because of it.
@@FkThatMate agreed. Hopefully this brings back players because it really is fun now.
Yeah, Dragonflight may be good but Blizzard has already burned too many bridges with WoW and its playerbase. I played WoW from TBC to Cataclysm and then from Legion to Shadowlands, and I just got tired of all the bullshit they kept pulling and have wrote the game off for good. Doesn’t matter how good Dragonflight is now, I have no desire to go back at this point. And a lot of other people feel the same way now.
Is Dragonglight actually good? Seems so boring to me.
Cataclysm recycled theme, with generic dragons to fight, with copy and paste Guild Wars 2 mount system.
Idk... first wow expansion I didn't buy, and I still feel zero desire to play.
@@vbm4780 Nah, I stopped playing after around 2 months. Same old world quest system, too many currencies and different ways to upgrade and get gear.. I just play WoW Classic now.. retail died off a while ago, atleast for me.
As someone in his 30's with two kids under 5 and a full time job, I've been enjoying the hell out of Mortal Online 2. It doesn't hold your hand or put shiny glowing trails to guide you around the map, and that's why I love it, reminds me of my Everquest 1 pvp server days
WoW retail feels like work, FF14 is a snoozefest story game with dogshit combat. GW2 needs a dungeon finder. ESO is just OK. MMOs are just a dying breed.
You should try WoW 's current expansion. It's no longer grinding for the sake of grinding. The dev team is doing a great job right now.
I feel like WoW has improved tremendously this expansion, it feels more modern than any other new MMOs out there
I been looking for a new mmo to play,played d2 and guild wars years ago but nothing captures the same feeling from gaming when i was younger.
This was very well-written. Tight work.
Putting Guild Wars 2 in that thumbnail in that context is misonforming.
Gw2 is currently growing, and releases its 4th expansion this August.
agree
GW2 is great, one of my favorite MMOs actually. GW2, ESO, WoW, are the 3 I’ve most consistently come back to over the years.
Video is discussing the genre as a whole, not singling out individual games. I just put some of my favorite MMOs in the thumb to convey that.
0:26 that's some damn good shake, I shook myself
i think the biggest problem with gaming right now is that there is so many available and not enough time to play them. rip my childhood.
Love the positive attitude! Great video man!
Great video. I agree with a lot of your points. I feel like the main pb with MMOs is that they are meant to last years to be meaningful. As an older guy today, i can no longer invest that much time, even if it was the best MMO in the world. Or if I did, it would be a couple hours here and there and I would be missing out on 90% of the game.
TLDR: MMOs are for youngsters at their parents house.
I guess people rediscovered the joys of short solo gaming sessions with the steam deck. I don't have 4 hours uninterrupted to make it worth logging in eve online since decades.
You said out loud what I've been thinking for a while
Great video with some terrific points that I agree with strongly. There is one thing you said though that I think needs some modification that brings us to one part of the equation that you missed: we do NOT want new. We want newer, better and innovative forms of the familiar. Most people will constantly go back to what they have formed habits around that they enjoy or feel they need in some way. It is why quitting smoking is so hard for some despite the extremely mild physical aspect of the addiction. It the habits, the routine, the familiar. If you go back and look at this video again, you will see you recommended people try games others love (an excellent idea), but you did not mention going to a new type of game. You don't need innovation or improved iteration to enjoy and entirely new type of experience. Yet we don't do that. We want the ultimate version of what we already know we like.
Developers have a greater challenge than we give them a credit for because they have to deliver something new and exciting without upsetting the apple cart so much that people say "this is not may game/genre any more". Look at Assassins Creed. The first open world titles in that genre were amazing (with no cash shops or microtransactions to criticize) yet some fans were up in arms because the focus on the original game play loop and story arcs were not similar enough. As you said, the gaming industry is different because we are different, but its also because we are in many ways unwilling to be different at the same time. Catering to people's most treasured hobbies and memories frankly sucks because it is nearly impossible and so I try to give all developers that are not making obviously insanely predatory games a break because of it.
Been playing Ultima Online since it came out.. I am 36 years old and the game came out in 1997.. I was 11 years of age when it came out and I have gone back to it on and off ever since then..
the old eq cinematic touched my heart
Been playing Eve Online since I was 16, which is literally half of my life at this point. Been running a group in Eve for that long as well. I love traditional on-rails mmo's, but sandboxes where players are the content and the entire essence of the game is your group and how it interacts with other groups and the world is what keeps me coming back. I don't know that I'll ever be able to walk away from this game.
shit man, ive tried to get into it. never could hard as solo
I shudder at how much cash he spent. When I tried it you had to research like each part of the ship and each research would take like 30 days and you had to pay to play so I was like fuck that and bailed lol
Very honestly, the only one, in my opinion, that has a chance of keeping me hooked, is without double, the Riot MMO.
Very insightful take on this. Great video!
Damn you seem worked up in this video. What a great vid. Great points, strong emotion, and you're justt fuckin right.
I really really love how Corepunk looks, can't wait to play that.
Blizzard Survival MMO sounds fun & Ashes Of Creation looks fun too.
nothing else has stud out to me
I was trying to figure out what that dota like UI game was. Thanks for naming it!
I've been thinking a lot about this recently too. There's games I want to play but I feel like everyone's moved past them (myself included), even if just mentally. I want to stop feeling like I have to rush through everything. I miss when the only source of info I had was a physical strategy guide, or the one MVP who just happened to make a post on the old school GameFAQS. I want to just get lost and suck at games again, and be okay with that
DAoC was my first MMO and I loved it. I hope that Camelot Unchained is good, but honestly it's been so long and there's been so much drama I'm not sure I'm even going to see it launch.
just the overwhelmingly positive games on steam alone would keep you busy for the rest of your life
My nostalgia revolves much more around the time and effort I had available to invest back then. There lies the difference between truly enjoying gaming vs being burdened with what it costs you to play or how much time and energy you take out of real-life shit in order to keep this hobby as an adult.
For me. FFXIV has been the only game that I feel respected my time. It feels so chill compared to WOW where I felt I had to play close to every day to be up to date. Now I raid with my guild like 1-2 days a week. And in general just play together whenever we feel like it.
Yea he's ranting about not logging in an seeing pop ups for cash shop but 14 doesn't even let you access the cash shop from the game,
Didnt knew about Horizon MMO, but that haz to be the one . That game is simply amazing.