Yes we mess up, but that should not be the emphasis. We are called to holiness so I don't really appreciate the hysterical laughter over every faulty church. They seem to very uncomfortable there, and it made me feel very uncomfortable. To say that Mars Hill was "not unique" is kind of an insensitive comment, I think, to the thousands possibly tens of thousands of people affected. Not a laughing matter in my opinion, not hilarious.
Yes we mess up, but that should not be the emphasis. We are called to holiness so I don't really appreciate the hysterical laughter over every faulty church. They seem to very uncomfortable there, and it made me feel very uncomfortable. To say that Mars Hill was "not unique" is kind of an insensitive comment, I think, to the thousands possibly tens of thousands of people affected. Not a laughing matter in my opinion, not hilarious.
@@erichamm3460 You clearly misunderstand and misrepresent them since they said the Mars Hill debacle was a tragedy. They weren't laughing at that but rather at the pitiful arrogance of letting that eclipse Jesus as central.
@@erichamm3460 I agree. Sin is something that should be grieved over and not be a matter of laughter. All too often it is being referred to flippantly, by pointing to some examples of human imperfection in the Bible. Well, it cost our Saviour the terrible sufferings and death on the cross, so it is that serious
Those that were taught by Mark and now doubt all those teachings show that they trusted completely in Mark rather than in Christ and the Word. I followed Mark and listened to his sermons often, and the root heart conditions behind the issues that were given as reasons his removal from leadership were things he repented of and warned his congregation about in his sermons beforehand. I love Mark and I think God is keeping him close and humble.
Lynn Grant - Mark humble? Oh, do you mean like in his recent interview with Word-of-Faith heretic Brian Houston, in which he recanted his criticism of Joel Osteen despite a biblical call to discern the truth (Matt 7:15, 1 John 4:1, 1 Cor. 2:15, Ephes 5:10), contend for the faith (Jude 1:3), not to associate with false teachers *and* expose and rebuke them ( 2 John 1:10, Ephes 5:11, 1 Tim 5:20)? Since his fall from grace, Mark's been hobnobbing and taking the stage with other false teachers, such as Steven Furtick, and what he's been saying reflects the same arrogance and pride that caused that Mars Hill bus-the one he was so eager to use to run over people who wouldn't get on it-to crash. Unfortunately, most in the American Evangelical church are departing from the faith and turning to the doctrine of demons (1 Timothy 4:1). They have become far removed from biblical, historical Christianity...
***** - John Piper was my pastor for nearly a decade, and I hold him in high regard. However, I will appeal to the authority of Scripture over the authority of John Piper: The former is infallible, whereas the latter is not. In TULIP seminars taught by Pastor Piper, he presented the theological import of the five points of Calvinism by stating-and rightly so!-that good doctrine glorifies God, and conversely bad doctrine dishonors God. I am therefore puzzled as to why he has been associating and sharing the stage with people who do not rightly handle God's Word. With respect to your first question, the answer can be found online through discernment ministries like SO4J, Fighting For The Faith, and Justin Peters Ministries. Of course, what they say also needs to be examined in accordance to 1 John 4:1, 1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Peter 2:1, etc. As Pastor Chris Rosebrough would say, "Don listen to what I say with an open mind. Listen with an open Bible."
Bex Fire Well, imho, there is this one point I want to make from Leviticus. Aaron, after his sons were burned up by God for offering improper fire, did not continue with the sacrifice/eating as prescribed. Moses, in fact, was quite upset with Aaron for this and pressed Aaron for an explanation, which Moses accepted. The explanation holds this principle which I think is biblical: God is more (not solely, but more) concerned with the state of our hearts than the outworking of out hearts. I think the entire process of sanctification rooted on the heart-change of justification is a picture of this principle at work. All that to say that the outworking of a genuinely faithful but sinfully fallible heart can result in both good/bad doctrine, as well as right/wrong handling of God's word. As much as those of us who know more do well to indict bad doctrine and wrong handling of the Word, we also have, by virtue of our knowledge, a greater responsibility to also discern the heart attitude of the person we are indicting. I believe this is what Piper is doing, and I feel that he is doing a good job holding the gospel balance between legalism (which we can fall into if we overly prioritise good doctrine/right handling) and licentiousness (which we can fall into if we over-prioritise a good heart attitude)
Such a gift that his own son finally escaped the trauma inflicted on him by his father AND his f-ed up theology. Piper is MORE Calvinist than John Calvin ever was.
@@debraburson9130 I've long STRENUOUSLY objected to dear Pastor John and all others using "calvinism" instead of "reformed," as Calvin himself would have, using a man's name in violation of 1 Corinthians 1, but this sadly ungodly, deranged, hateful, potty mouthed, deluded bigoted attack conveniently fails to realize both that 1. Abraham's only one of four sons and a daughter (=20%) to react so, and 2. his manifestly lunatic and hateful rants rejecting his father's views of God are pathetically incoherent (ably refuted by Doug Wilson on UA-cam, not to mention by his father's hundreds of sermons) and have sadly him made him look so wizened and decrepit as to seem about as old as his father. That's what hate does, and it will do so to you and all hateful others without repentance, as Jesus said in Luke 13. God save us.
This is amazing. The question answered in love and honesty. This little interview convicted me pretty heavily. The reminder Piper gives that we are all flawed; we are broken and chipped jars with the glorious Gospel within. We may make mistakes just as those we look to as leaders will. Yet the important thing to remember is its not about any person...it's about the Gospel. A decision I thought I had set my direction on has been challenged by this interview.
Joseph Van Name dude....need I remind you the God we are talking about IS love?? You can't be out here spreading hate and claiming you're here in the name of God. Did Driscoll screw up. Oh heck yeah, he did big time. But you have NO RIGHT to pass judgement and claim God hates these people. Out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. I would question if the God you claim is just a construct of your mind, a God that allows you to be arrogant and spread hate. Spread love, not hate. Yes Driscoll screwed up royally and deserved to be maligned for it. But you have gone too far. To say that God should damn somebody's soul is utter blasphemy. Read 1 John 4:7-21. Wisen up kid. Stop it. God isn't looking for people to defend him, he's looking for humble people who honor him. You are a very anxious man. You are always worried about your future and about being good enough for God, that's why you lash out. The Bible says in 1 Peter 5:6-7 that we must HUMBLE ourselves under God's hand and he'll lift us up. And THAT is how we cast our anxieties on him! I will pray for you that you will see the truth. God bless.
Joseph Van Name : How exactly did Driscoll blaspheme? Verifiably quote the blasphemy. Of course, you can’t. You’ve broken the 9th commandment (Ex 20:16) by bearing false witness. You’ve committed slander. “Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who act faithfully are his delight.” (Proverbs 12:22) You need to repent.
Brothers and sisters in Christ will fall short, because ALL fall short of the glory of God. Jesus however does not. Let's keep our eye on The Christ, reprimand our brothers when necessary, and forgive them as we are called to do.
I appreciate Piper's helpful encouragement for believers to not walk away from Jesus and Jesus' church because of Driscoll and Mars Hill's failings. So many people were hurt and are still walking around wounded by the way leadership treated everyone. They need to be encouraged. However, I don't agree with Piper's characterization of the "debacle in Seattle" as a satanic victory. I think that characterization feeds the false narrative that those who opposed Mark and called him and the church leaders to repent of an unbiblical ecclesiology (among other things) were "the enemy" or "haters". Though I too once believed that, it simply is not true. The fall of Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill was not the result of some external satanic attack. It was a result of Mark's arrogance, a culture of fear, an unwillingness to repent, and an unbiblical ecclesiology. Paul Tripp characterized Mars Hill as "the most abusive, coercive ministry culture I’ve ever been involved with". Something had to change and thank God change did come. Satan did not win! On the contrary, I think Mark being taken out of the limelight and Mars Hill splitting up into smaller independent local churches was a REALLY GOOD THING. Every church should be shepherded by qualified elders who "shepherd the flock of God among" them (1 Pet 5:2). The elders who investigated the charges brought against Mark concluded that he was not qualified as an elder. Furthermore, like most megachurch "pastors" Mark was not among the flock in any real way. He did not know the flock, and the flock did not know him. The mega church multisite church model of Mars Hill (and other churches) was and is completely antithetical to the biblical model of church governance wherein each church is to be shepherded by a plurality of elders who are among the flock they shepherd. The outcome was messy and many folks were hurt by it. I don't want to minimize the real pain that many people still feel. But God is indeed sovereign, and at the end of the day the unrepentant pastor is out of church leadership and the unbiblical multisite megachurch was dissolved into smaller independent churches that at least have the opportunity now to have a healthy biblical eldership that can properly and lovingly shepherd the flock of God among them. I firmly believe that that is a WIN FOR THE GOSPEL!
Tripp Howard Tripp, hold that thought and think past it. Driscoll LEFT/ABANDONED his own church to avoid right accountability with his very own elders! Get it?! DRISCOLL LEFT the church. And many would say he was judged by Jesus/being removed from (at least semi-orthodox) ministry. Now, he is seeking a platform where he can exercise his rebellion (accountable to no one but himself - Robert Morris, Brian Houston are the same sorts of false teachers, btw.) These men are dangerous and vicious wolves. Read Jude. Meanwhile, the dear lambs and the weak-minded pastors Mark trained, are certainly suffering spiritual ruin. Yes, we need to pray for the unchurched Mark has damaged.
***** Paul Tripp said this (and more) in his discussions with some of the local elders of the church. It is recorded in the letter from the 9 elders who called for Mark to step down and submit to a restoration plan on August 22, 2014. It was reported in many news outlets at the time. Here's one such source: www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2014/august/nine-current-mars-hill-pastors-tell-mark-driscoll-step-down.html This letter was the key turning point for many in their decision to leave Mars Hill.
Seong Kim Yes, satan works in sin, but Mark (like all of us) is still responsible for his own sin. The blame should rightly be laid at Mark's feet, not shifted to some external attack on the church (which is how it was spun by the church).
***** How do you know Paul's opinion was much more nuanced? Were you a party to the conversation between Paul and these elders? Also, I'm not clear on what you're saying. Are you saying that my sharing of the letter that was widely circulated almost a year ago is irresponsible?
I am glad he said "this was a colossal victory for Satan." I agree with the emphasis on God's redemptive sovereignty in such things, but what about learning from these disasters when they happen? The Driscoll phenomenon wasn't just about Driscoll; his choices were his own, but to some extent the debacle at Mars Hill reflects trends in wider evangelicalism. At some point we have to examine what went wrong if we want to learn from it.
Younger men mentored and discipled by older men. Senior pastors surrounded by established (not placed) eldership in accountability. From the new believer to the most senior elder, have a Paul, have a Barnabas, have a Timothy. Be mentored, be accountable, be mentoring. If everyone needs to be in a small group of peers and accountability, then everyone needs to. Discipleship and mentoring, accountability and transparency, teaching and equipping.
You are correct, brother he did a lot of damage, but I do believe that if Jesus was walking the Earth right now, and if the apostle Paul was walking the Earth right now, a lot of people would be very offended at both of them as well because they would bring correction publicly to men especiallyand I don’t know how many could handle even those two
@@christianbosse_ I am not God, so will never judge! That is between Mark and God. Trinity Church is growing and I love his teachings. If the church in Seattle did not survive without him then that is the question that should be asked. There are many pastors that could lead that church in Seattle.
I'm grateful that you're plugged into a church and pursuing a personal walk with Christ. Has it been difficult or distracting for you to hear the resounding echoes coming from Christianity Today's recent podcast about Mars Hill? I'm curious if your pastor has acknowledged it in any way.
@@christianbosse_ repentance is between the individual and God. Not by people questioning somebody’s repentance based off of a past that a person may have.
Mark Driscoll is a smooth, entertaining and informative speaker who was finally confronted by nine of his own elders and 21 former pastors who'd had enough of a culture of abuse. This video is a big name professional Christian whitewashing the sins of another big name professional Christian. Piper could have taken a little time to learn exactly what happened at Mars Hill, or he does know and he doesn't care. But thanks for not disabling comments as so many Christian leaders seem to do.
I'm so confused as to what you're talking about. He made a horrible mistake in his behavior. And it's bad. But I don't know why people are acting like he was a false teacher out here to get what he wants
At least he has stepped down and continues to preach the Gospel...none of the Word of Faith teachers have done that. They haven’t stepped down and they definitely don’t teach the Gospel. As far as unqualified ministers go, I think Mark Driscoll is probably one of the least of our worries, sotospeak.
unfortunately so much of this response is minimizing the issue and protecting the image of THE CHURCH, and doesn't address the real trauma of what happened at Mars Hill.
I disagree. He says it was a defeat for the Gospel, “colossal satanic defeat” And doesn’t it sound like a protection of the image of the church when he says God uses defective people to speak Gospel truths and who has not let Jesus down.
@@Julian-cy3bm I'm not sure I follow, you seem to be saying you disagree while saying things that seem to agree with me. I'll take a stab at what you may be saying. I think you disagree with me saying the response minimizes the issue. I say it minimizes the issue because the fallout is all centered on the church, not those who have been abused.
@@zackattack366 Hey Vincent! Thanks for the reply and my apologies if I didn’t come out clear. I did disagree with your response of the video. What he said was this is not unique and it’s true but it’s just a bigger issue because of the size of Mars hill and who Driscoll is. He put this issue on the Lord and says he is in control over everything in the world, even mention bigger issues. The issue is MH is years gone, when is the church going to actually offer forgiveness and mercy, just like what God does for us daily. Why are our standards above His?
The church is the bride and body of Christ, so of course Piper is going to try to protect it. I was having some fairly critical thoughts of what he was saying, myself, until I his concluding remarks.
If Christians walk away from the likes of Mark Driscoll, who chose to do what he did and willingly taught what he taught, they are not walking away from Jesus or the church. It just happens to be that that pastor or church has walked away from teaching the Gospel Truth. And they should. If there is false teaching by a false pastor, Christians have every right yea even an obligation to distance themselves from false teachers. And yes, God is still in control and can and does turn things that are seemingly bad into good for His glory. Praise God!
@@thechercheur3998 Christians _are_ the church. The place (if they even have a choice!) and mode of worship, study of the scriptures, prayer, and edification, is not a prescriptive recipe. The local church may gather in traditional "church buildings", homes, fire halls, parks, and even in prisons.
@@alexanderthegreatandterrib4589 I've been following what is going on at his church in Phoenix, abusive behaviour, kicking dozens of people out, slandering, threatening with lawsuits?
I wonder aloud if Driscoll simply got given a pass because many agreed with his doctrinal conclusions and therefore overlooked the glaring issues in how he presented them?
I once asked the Lord about the rapture...that same night i had a dream about a van filled with people...Pastor John Piper was the driver...imagine how cool it will be to have brother John drive a van on our way back to Heaven without him holding the stearing wheel...just having him explain all truth through the Holy Ghost while the Lord direct the vessel towards Heaven...i found it awesome lol.
Lisandro Perez I don't know if that's what Keith here is saying, but I understand his caution. Though can show me his truth in a many number of ways, we must be careful to distinguish between a natural happening upon the truth of God through general revelation, and directly receiving truth from God through specific revelation. That being said, I doubt you were claiming that God showed you the real rapture, because I don't think you believe that the rapture will be John Piper sitting in the driver's seat of a van that's driving itself. He simply warns against the outcry that, "You received a message directly from God." Which I don't believe you were saying
I actually am glad they are because Christian comment sections are some of the most repulsive places on earth. Keeping comments off was a good way of preventing poison in comments from distracting from his sermons, especially in a time when nearly everyone had opinions they were willing to burn people over. In a time where no one was open to disagreement or mercy or grace it's good that christians weren't allowed to comment because non-christians would have seen the worst and left instead of hearing some beneficial teachings. I wish more Christian channels had no comments. Get better problems to focus on
@@bufficliff8978 I agree with you about comment sections wholeheartedly. However, in this particular situation I suspect that that was and is not the main driving force behind the decision to disable them.
When this brother says that if a person walks away from the institutional church is walking away from Jesus is TOTALLY WRONG. If you walk away from God's people that is wrong, but to connect with a group of believers outside the institutional structure is totally acceptable. Like a home group or house church or fellowship group, All there were for the first 3 hundred years was house church, no church buildings. Consider this
Well now after being a believer for 56 years I have seen to much bad within the 4 wall church that I'm no longer a Christian, but a simple follower of Jesus.
The trouble with that is if rejects God's promise to work through pastors and deacons and removes the believer from church discipline as Jesus outlined. Hence, abandoning the "institutional" church (I.e. A church led by a pastor) is rebellion against God's command. There was one church of Ephesus, Galatia, etc. NOT many small house churches in each city, but one united church body organized with pastors and deacons.
@@dansteuer1411 I suppose the same measure you use to judge him will be used to judge you. Either way, he has blessed my life with his teachings for years. The fact that you don’t like him is irrelevant, Jesus sees him perfectly, and is still using him to impact lives for the good of the kingdom.✌🏼
@@metlica17 please listen to the rise and fall of mars hill and all the people that got hurt by his ministry. I’m not judging him. I’m looking at what he has done and he will have to answer to God for the mistakes he has made just like I will
@@dansteuer1411 “there is no way Mark Driscoll should be a pastor” isn’t a judgement? I have listened to the podcast. He’s certainly made some mistakes, imo he has owned and confessed his mistakes and repented of them publicly.
@@metlica17 He's repented publicly but as the podcast shows, he hasn't gone up to any individual person that was hurt by what he did. Also, it speaks volumes on how that podcast reached out multiple times for Mark to give his side of the story and he refused. Also speaks volumes on how Mark can take zero criticism. A good leader can accept criticism and learn from it. They don't ignore it or block you the minute you say something they don't agree with. And yes like you said he did publicly apologize in general but they are still consequences from the decisions he made and that is not being judgmental; that is just the facts. Same as a person who gets saved or asks for forgiveness lets say a week after they rob a bank. Yes God forgives them but there is still a consequence of going to jail caused by the initial wrong.
How absolutely refreshing to hear this. I imagine most of us are weary from seeing the backbiting and gossiping, and what it is doing to the body of Christ. As if it wasn’t hard enough to get people out of the world, but for them to see us devour one another like this is an absolute end time horror! Let god be true, and every man a liar. Only God knows where Mark and John Lindell need work. And only God knows the truth about so many of these ugly details being broadcast. I hate to see the garden this creates when harvest time comes.
+Fred Mcelroy There's a huge number of leaders from Mars Hill that he won't admit to doing wrong to. He hasn't handled this situation with much humility at all. Read his resignation letter. He basically said a lot of things you had no proof of, of course no one is perfect, and a lot of people don't like him anymore and he feels unsafe and overwhelmed. Instead of admitting his wrongs, he runs away quietly to Arizona to start a new church. Fresh with a new wardrobe and new marketing tactics. The man did some great things, but all in all, hurt a ton of people and he has yet to apologize publicly, and at least to the leaders that I know, also in private.
+Matt Crum Oh I didn't know that. Now that you say that he is starting a new church in another state. I think he is not qualified to be in ministry. So I agree with you now.
Well looking back at my comment from 3 months ago...lol When a man is prideful he is not qualified for the ministry. Because being prideful is a sign of being a novice when it comes to the ministry. (1 Tim. 3:6)
lol. Really In Tim. 3 He is talking about the man's household and not being a novice which is a young convert. It doesn't say that a prideful person is a novice. Am sure that's the way you want to read it. If pride was what kept man from qualifying as superintendence everyone would be disqualified. But that is not what it says "for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. It is saying if a man can't run his own house how can he lead a Church. It is saying if a man is a young convert and you give him the responsibility of superintendence he will be tempted with pride and fall into the same condemnation as the devil. Perhaps you can find something else in that passage of scripture that would disqualify him. Please don't use your imagination in your interpretation.should be done and in Am not sure why Christians get on video's like this and comment like there the authority on what should be done or on why the the speaker is wrong.Then apply condemnation. This is what the word of God calls gossip which creates division. The Word says At the same time they will also learn to be idle, going from house to house and being not only idle, but also gossips and busybodies, speaking of things they should not mention. For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies. Modern day internet busybodies. If we have a problem with a brother the Word of God says this; "Brothers, if someone is caught in a trespass, you who are spiritual should restore him with a spirit of gentleness. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. So I would be extremely careful on how you speak/write
Was it really that bad? Didn't the churches just break apart and form their own thing with some smaller ones closing? Not to belittle anything, just curious. Seems like in the grand scale certain Christians are facing much more, especially physical violence.
It's not that bad. Just sad still. Especially for those who loved Driscolls preaching. For example I loved Driscolls teachings and not only that but he was the first pastor for me. I accepted Christ out of the church (which I go to one now) but Driscoll was my pastor before I ever had a church and a pastor. So to not be able to see the pastor you started with can make you sad. Just hope people don't take it to the point where they stop following Jesus
Should we overlook smaller crimes in society because there are larger ones going on like murder and rape? Let's let shoplifting slide because its not murder. Driscoll hurt a lot of people and embarrassed the body of Christ. In addition to having his books sales falsified for the sake of his ego. He committed serious sins as a pastor and scripture commands they be dealt with. The fact that there are bigger issues in Christianity doesn't mean we overlook smaller ones.
Driscoll was the pastor of Mars hill church in Washington, and he verbally abused elders and leaders and probably even church goers for over a decade and caused a lot of people to walk away from the church and much much more that no one else knows about except for the people that endured the abuse.
iam very sad about the whole mark driscoll thing, I do belive that his head started to get to big for him to carry around, BUT he is a Great teacher, and his Doctrin was RIGHT ON.
Louis Unger what I heard was he was unteachable, a little arrogant and not open to authority. Therefore he disqualified himself from a pastoral role, and the signs of him becoming too big for his britches hit him and were being exposed slowly and surely as time went on. I pray for him and love his old sermons. He's a brother, tho he messed up big time
Dadutta Driscoll has gone "down the tubes" on many levels. Though his bad behaviors (lying, abuse, vulgarity, hostility, betrayal) are there - his former teachings are very dangerous and false. Search "Phil Johnson" and MD. Phil's sermon refuting Driscoll's vulgarity is far more important than Driscoll betraying his own elders/church. IMO. Also search MD over at fightingforthefaith.com There are 10 years worth of discernment on Driscoll along with many others. Good stuff. Get strong and be edified.
Gabe, with due respect . . .you are confusing scripture's distinction between those who preach the (true) Gospel for personal gain (1 Corinthians) vs. outright wolves from WITHIN the church, deceiving and feeding themselves (Jude 9-22). If you do the homework yourself, you can learn HOW Driscoll fits in the second category. Especially NOW, Mr. Driscoll has PROVEN himself to be false. He doesn't believe in the correct Jesus in scripture - he endures/agrees with (?) anti-trinitarian false teachers (Robert Morris, Jimmy Evans) and is being funded by Robert Morris to attempt to rebuild his BUSINESS. Check out the BUSINESS LICENSE Driscoll took out to create "The Trinity Church". It is NOT a true Christian church, btw - since no where in scripture does it teach a real pastor to register a business license to plant a church. Have you even studied the topic of "church growth" as in the video "Church of Tares"? A long topic but certainly reveals HOW the wolves pose as christian pastors to deceive the flock.
Warning! Mr. Gabe, nowhere in Holy Scripture is any Christian (nor angel for that matter) to so much as acknowledge Satan or demons! Christians look to Jesus Christ ALONE. Hebrews 12:2 Where is your confidence and attention in the ONE LORD OF ALL? Any person noticing, let alone speaking to, demons or Satan, are disobeying God. Jude 1:9 (Actually, read ALL of Jude.) There is NOT one single molecule on this planet nor any being in the spiritual realm that is not subject to the governing power of Jesus Christ! Matthew 28:18 PERIOD. Here is Jesus' teaching about those who cast out demons in His name: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ Matthew 7:21-23
When a so-called, professing "christian" cannot give BIBLICAL evidence to support their claims, THAT is the problem. Jesus has more street cred than you or anyone else. I'm not important. Just know . . . each one of us will be judged by the written Word of God. : \
To say that Driscoll just made a mistake like everyone else completely discounts the seriousness of what happened and the pain that people under his leadership went through. Spiritual abuse is one of the most damaging things a person can go through. There are people suffering from PTSD because of what happened at this church.
+abbasgirl74 PTSD?....Are you kidding? Did he physically torture somebody? Did he shoot at them? Come on. Don't throw terms like PTSD around so lightly.
Watching this after finishing The Rise & Fall of Mars Hill podcast by Christianity Today. I highly recommend it for anyone looking to gain a more robust perspective on the Evangelical case study that is Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill that goes far beyond the oversimplified “everyone makes mistakes but God still uses them” narrative that Piper seems to be sharing here.
Ya I'm in the middle of the podcast series as well. Maybe I'm just a bit to caught up in the series, but I find Piper's response a bit soft. Not that I think he should be slandering Mark or anything. But it seems like there is a bit of a lack of acknowledgement of just how bad some of the abuse was at Mars Hill. I wonder if his tone would change if he listened to the podcast series
While John is making some sense about "not throwing away the baby with the bathwater of sin". And everyone fails to live up to the standards sometimes. It's tremendously tone deaf and insensitive to those who've suffered trauma at the hands of an abusive leader to essentially say "look in the mirror" or " forgive and get over it". Leadership in the church is a position like no other. As a representative of Christ on earth, as an example of His life, a pastor shepherds a flock and has their trust. He nurtures and nourishes them, either for good or bad, by his own flesh, traditions of men or the Scriptures and the Spirit. The pulpit is no place for abuse. Period. There's a place for pastors who fail and fall. ... it's in the seats with the rest of the people listening to a qualified teacher.
8:28... I think Norm was speaking to "church" (little "c") and Piper was speaking to "Church" (big "C"). Don't put your faith in your "pastors, ministers and priests." Your faith is misplaced and should be placed with Jesus.
James 3:1 - Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. Someone needs to read their bible more
John Pipers exact words on his website this is an exact quote " This includes-as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem- God's having even brought about the Nazis' brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child..."
I grew up evangelical (Church of the Nazarene), but I began a long slow drift away from my childhood faith beginning with the election of Ronald Reagan and the politicizing of evangelical churches by conflating it with the Republican party. Now we have an entire segment of the Christian church in America that has fallen into the sin of Christian nationalism. The new Reformed movement championed by Driscoll, as I observe it, is closely aligned with that sin. I never attended a service at Mars Hill, or any of its affiliated congregations, so I can only judge him by the public foot print of his personal behavior and its toxic impact on the public perception of Christianity. I accept Rev. Funk's statement that Mark has expressed regret for his behavior, but I have never observed it in the public media. In fact, the reverse seems to be true. All I have seen are indications that Driscoll remains largely unrepentant and is now trying to replicate his "brand" with a church in Scottsdale, AZ. I think that Rev. Funk, who refers to young "left leaning" Christians who have left the church is a vast overstatement. I believe that many young Christians today have not left the church so much as they have left the institutions and theology of Reformed fundamentalism. For the last 30 years I have attended an Anabaptist congregation. While we hold Scripture in high regard we identify with more with Christians who seek to follow Jesus, as opposed to those obsessed with building theological boxes in which to contain him.
I live in Seattle and the fall out was pretty bad. Some successes though. Some of the Satelite churches became their own entities and remain to this day. The "mother ship " church building was purchased by another "youngish" church that preaches the gospel.
I wonder why those other pastors at MH church didn't just leave and go start their own church? They didn't have to break apart a church to do that. I agree with Piper, it was an attack. Walking away from "the church" isn't same as leaving one particular church to go start another one. Sometimes God asks leaders to do just that. I don't even really know Driscoll, and I feel bad for the guy, because I see a bunch of nasty comments that are down right hateful. I agree with Piper about if you want to create a church create it biblically
I like Pastor John, but in regards to his first point, I believe his priorities are misplaced - not all wrongdoing is equal, and not all people are in positions where their wickedness is equally consequential. We should be slow to judge inasmuch as we are failing to an equivalent or greater degree - many of us are not and are obligated to denounce Driscoll’s abuse in the strong language, despite the fact we too are flawed. Let’s not use our imperfection as an excuse to shirk the unpleasant task of holding leaders to account.
as i christian of 40 years im questioning our whole church model that is not primarily relational but informational. Christianity should be love surpassing knowledge not men on pedestals with a "show" feel. many people cant connect and grow in the church model that exists now. i am so wounded by shallow commitments to relationship. people should matter more than anything else. discarding connections for other distractions is shallow empty and problematic.
[26] For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: [27] But God hath chosen the *FOOLISH* things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the *WEAK* things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; [28] And *BASE* things of the world, and things which are *DESPISED* hath God chosen, yea, and *things which are not*, to bring to nought things that are: [29] That no flesh should glory in his presence. *1Cor **1:26**-29* This is the church that Jesus Christ is building. They are not celebrity pastors, teachers, wealthy or popular. They are not book writers or conference leaders. They are not wise or mighty or noble. They are not money hungry. They care not for fame or wealth. They do not adopt worldly practices to win over the world. NOBODY can convert anybody. True conversion is from Christ himself. True conversion is an ongoing process of the heart and mind.
@@lionofjudahlambofgod9132 : The kjv is an early 17th century Anglican translation based on corrupted manuscripts and translated with many errors and in archaic language.
The issue was not Mark's "imperfection" or being "defective" or not having a good "wine skin" or "dirty bath water." Nor was it a "strategic satanic victory." The issue is that Mark sinned against God, people, and the "sheep" in his flock and reaped the consequences of those sins. Satan didn't take Mark out. His ongoing sin did. His sin Biblically disqualified him from ministry. I don't understand why Piper can't just say, "Marks sins and the consequences of them took him out," instead of turning the whole thing into some cosmic battle. Piper's mental and verbal gymnastics are just that - gymnastics. The whole thing is sad with devastating consequences for Mark, his family, the church, and many many people. Hopefully Mark (and the people complicit in his sin and the people he sinned against) get the help and healing so very needed.
Rebecca Aske Exactly the point I've tried to make. I don't understand why Piper and others can't just say "Marks sins and the consequences of them took him out," when that's what actually happened.
+Tripp Howard Well ask yourself this, what was the question Piper was given? Everyone knows already that marked sinned and the consequences fell on himself and his beloved church. Don't put it out that only you two know and we don't, no, we all know what actually happened hence why we including piper aren't still focused on it. So the focus is no longer what happened or what did he do? but how can we help the beloved church and those walking away? And winging about piper is not going to help!
John literally says at 4:30 in the video, "If Mark was defective in some biblical way of leadership - which I think is true - and I think he admits are true" which is basically what you are asking him to do. He admits that Mark were sinning in his position as a leader and has taken the consequences for it.
I sort of get this, but the Bible doesn't necessarily ordane that we meet at 10.30 on Sunday, in an expensive building to sing songs which line the pockets of songwriters who may or may not have a strong personal faith... I don't like the fact that when there's a moral prerogative to go to church, the church can get away with things while knowing people will still feel compelled to go. I'm partly sharing my view and partly just venting, but it can be hard to find a church which feels solid, enriching and - also - safe, these days, and if the church is the universal body of believers... I'm still a part of it even if I don't attend a specific brick building on a Sunday morning...
@@wlknonsonshine Weeeell, I don't know anything about that myself! I'm just focused on the relational aspect of things really! Peace to you and yours :)
@@CJ-sw8lc right...because you were talking about expensive buildings & lining their pockets. The 501c3 is how they do it in the US. Why are you acting like someone attacked you personally?
@@wlknonsonshine Haha, sorry?? I think you possibly misunderstood/misread/misinterpreted my message. I'm sure you made an excellent point, I just don't know much about the subject - that's all!
What is so sad about this interview is that Piper is not seeing the forest for the trees when it comes to the institutional Church and his interpretation of what 'church' is. Many people are genuinely walking away from the Church in general these days but not from Jesus. Piper says this cannot be because the Church is ordained by Jesus. YES, the people who are dropped out, doing the will of God from a heart of love, taking up the cross and being transformed in their minds and living in unity with each other under the power of God's spirit ARE THE CHURCH!!! Only problem is that for the most part this is NOT how John Piper sees it. He still puts a lot of trust in the institutional church system which for the most part is not the true church of God for today. So he was very wrong on that point. What is also so sad is that so much of what Driscoll is getting flak for from many angles is totally NOT legitimate, but is getting very little flak for the things he preached and the ways he was that were and are blatantly wrong such as sexual perversion (anal sex issues, etc), spousal abuse and violent behavior, etc. Because so many Christians are doing anything but serving God and are anything but disciples, they fail to see the truth in all these issues including the fact that Mark was greatly used by the Lord for a purpose. They attack him for personal pet peeves instead of for the false things he taught and the things he said were okay which are totally NOT okay. But this is because for the most part, the people are doing the same things themselves and are involved in the same perversions and secret sins. So they don't own up to what is genuinely wrong with Mark Driscoll for fear it will expose too much of their own personal disobedience and compromise.
There's nothing sad about the interview for those with eyes to see. You greatly err in misinterpreting Piper; as I've followed him closely for decades I can assure you your absurd notion about people walking away from the Church but not "Jesus" is to at least some degree "emergent" nonsense where this mythical "Jesus" has a wax nose fools can twist any way they like as their puppet so very different from Acts where the blinding radiance of his glory knocks Saul off his horse and from Revelation where the same terrifying majesty causes his best friend John to fall like a dead man. And typical for emergent nonsense you have no Scripture, the Word of God Written coextensive with Jesus the Word of God Incarnate, as support. I have no idea how many HUNDREDS of Piper's sermons have radically BIBLICALLY transformed my life to be more Biblical, by which Biblical foundation to be able to weather agonizing storms like the failures of Church leaders, but I pray you will do likewise to come to a better understanding of God & His Word Incarnate and Written coextensive than you seem to have. Glory to God alone!
The idea that true Christians walk away from the church is “sad” - and wrong. If they’re walking away it’s because they’re not the church (1 John 2:18).
Piper is shortsighted in this, mistaking ongoing spiritual manipulation for a sin that you can just repent of and step back into ministry. If I didn’t know any better (and I don’t), it may be safe to assume there is similar spiritual abuse going on at Piper’s church; one thing the Mars Hill podcast delved into was how a culture can unwittingly cover and excuse the sins of the celebrity-type at the top. In essence, Mars Hill fell because its elders took way too long to properly hold Driscoll accountable or depose him. I can only pray, and hope and believe that Piper’s co-elders are not blind to that pitfall
This is good and Johns right but I would say this has less to do with people leaving the church and where are leaders within the body held accountable for their actions. Just remember somebody pointed out to Mark he was in the wrong and he responded with not being held accountable to no one. Not a pastor from a smaller church or his own board of elders.
Why does Piper not present the clear words of Jesus in Matthew 18 not followed at many levels and in many ways . . . Driscoll departed from the words of Jesus but Piper cannot say it . . .
This is what I hate. I am only 3:39 min. In but I hate when people like John say we are letting Jesus down regularly but, when we are doing a great job, it's not us it's God. It poses some problems, one problem is we some how we get blamed yet God in his Omniscience can't save us. See if we are failing and our faith is not in us but in him, then he is the one in control. He is the one to blame when things go wrong and right. So issue is we don't have free will really and everything is deterministic. So why go through this play and go through this pain and suffering and joy as well that we never choose or have no part in it. Usually the option given is something like we really have two options pick God or devil(which is anything that is not God). If we pick devil we are going to just dance to our DNA and if we pick God we will be puppets and he will be just pulling our strings. And we can switch back in forth maybe. That is essentially what it is. Bad is from the devil, good is from God. We are just the car. What is the point then, we are just machines with complicated software programs.
i think you misunderstood understand, friend. We are definitely to blame. What you say at the very end there, good is from GOD, bad is from the devil - where is Satahn/the devil from? Where did he come from? (Job).
what about the little fact that the church is the body of Christ and has the mind of Christ.....we are called to love our enemies....so if you find them every Sunday it cuts out the time trying to go out and find them.......so my question to all the "reformed guys" what exactly is their problem with Orthodoxy? why do they seem to act as if the church started with the reformation and not before?
The Reformation was attempting to get back to the biblical Christianity passed down by the apostles before the Roman Catholic and other orthodox churches became all powerful and eventually persecuted biblical Christians, among others. I recently taught on this at our church. You may be interested in the talk with accompanying slideshow. Simply search for Make Sure Ministries here on UA-cam. You're welcome to give me feedback on my presentation.
Wow! 🐻 “Who has not let Jesus down?” JP has a beautiful way of administering truth. 🙏🏻
But for the grace of God, There go I
Yes we mess up, but that should not be the emphasis. We are called to holiness so I don't really appreciate the hysterical laughter over every faulty church. They seem to very uncomfortable there, and it made me feel very uncomfortable. To say that Mars Hill was "not unique" is kind of an insensitive comment, I think, to the thousands possibly tens of thousands of people affected. Not a laughing matter in my opinion, not hilarious.
Yes we mess up, but that should not be the emphasis. We are called to holiness so I don't really appreciate the hysterical laughter over every faulty church. They seem to very uncomfortable there, and it made me feel very uncomfortable. To say that Mars Hill was "not unique" is kind of an insensitive comment, I think, to the thousands possibly tens of thousands of people affected. Not a laughing matter in my opinion, not hilarious.
@@erichamm3460 You clearly misunderstand and misrepresent them since they said the Mars Hill debacle was a tragedy. They weren't laughing at that but rather at the pitiful arrogance of letting that eclipse Jesus as central.
@@erichamm3460 I agree. Sin is something that should be grieved over and not be a matter of laughter. All too often it is being referred to flippantly, by pointing to some examples of human imperfection in the Bible. Well, it cost our Saviour the terrible sufferings and death on the cross, so it is that serious
Thank you John Piper for providing us with a biblical paradigm to help make sense of what happened to Mark Driscoll. Very encouraging
Great discussion. One man's fall doesn't make God's idea of the church any less significant. The church is there for a purpose.
Those that were taught by Mark and now doubt all those teachings show that they trusted completely in Mark rather than in Christ and the Word. I followed Mark and listened to his sermons often, and the root heart conditions behind the issues that were given as reasons his removal from leadership were things he repented of and warned his congregation about in his sermons beforehand. I love Mark and I think God is keeping him close and humble.
Lynn Grant - Mark humble? Oh, do you mean like in his recent interview with Word-of-Faith heretic Brian Houston, in which he recanted his criticism of Joel Osteen despite a biblical call to discern the truth (Matt 7:15, 1 John 4:1, 1 Cor. 2:15, Ephes 5:10), contend for the faith (Jude 1:3), not to associate with false teachers *and* expose and rebuke them ( 2 John 1:10, Ephes 5:11, 1 Tim 5:20)?
Since his fall from grace, Mark's been hobnobbing and taking the stage with other false teachers, such as Steven Furtick, and what he's been saying reflects the same arrogance and pride that caused that Mars Hill bus-the one he was so eager to use to run over people who wouldn't get on it-to crash.
Unfortunately, most in the American Evangelical church are departing from the faith and turning to the doctrine of demons (1 Timothy 4:1). They have become far removed from biblical, historical Christianity...
Lynn Grant Yeah, sadly there were not enough Bereans.
Bex Fire How is Mark and Steven false teachers? If Mark is, why would John Piper be associated with Mark and not call Mark out on his false Preaching?
***** - John Piper was my pastor for nearly a decade, and I hold him in high regard. However, I will appeal to the authority of Scripture over the authority of John Piper: The former is infallible, whereas the latter is not.
In TULIP seminars taught by Pastor Piper, he presented the theological import of the five points of Calvinism by stating-and rightly so!-that good doctrine glorifies God, and conversely bad doctrine dishonors God. I am therefore puzzled as to why he has been associating and sharing the stage with people who do not rightly handle God's Word.
With respect to your first question, the answer can be found online through discernment ministries like SO4J, Fighting For The Faith, and Justin Peters Ministries. Of course, what they say also needs to be examined in accordance to 1 John 4:1, 1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Peter 2:1, etc. As Pastor Chris Rosebrough would say, "Don listen to what I say with an open mind. Listen with an open Bible."
Bex Fire Well, imho, there is this one point I want to make from Leviticus. Aaron, after his sons were burned up by God for offering improper fire, did not continue with the sacrifice/eating as prescribed. Moses, in fact, was quite upset with Aaron for this and pressed Aaron for an explanation, which Moses accepted. The explanation holds this principle which I think is biblical: God is more (not solely, but more) concerned with the state of our hearts than the outworking of out hearts. I think the entire process of sanctification rooted on the heart-change of justification is a picture of this principle at work.
All that to say that the outworking of a genuinely faithful but sinfully fallible heart can result in both good/bad doctrine, as well as right/wrong handling of God's word. As much as those of us who know more do well to indict bad doctrine and wrong handling of the Word, we also have, by virtue of our knowledge, a greater responsibility to also discern the heart attitude of the person we are indicting.
I believe this is what Piper is doing, and I feel that he is doing a good job holding the gospel balance between legalism (which we can fall into if we overly prioritise good doctrine/right handling) and licentiousness (which we can fall into if we over-prioritise a good heart attitude)
great words. when he emphatically said "this is not man's idea" (referring to the concept and structure of church) I was tearing up
Some Churches give Pastors too much power without accountability
Add some churches are sissified just like what you go to and what you believe in!
Great words of wisdom from the old shepherd John Piper...just beautiful❣❣❣
Piper is just such a gift to the church...
@Mohammad Driscoll Mohammad, God will judge your for your works, repent
Such a gift that his own son finally escaped the trauma inflicted on him by his father AND his f-ed up theology. Piper is MORE Calvinist than John Calvin ever was.
@@debraburson9130 I've long STRENUOUSLY objected to dear Pastor John and all others using "calvinism" instead of "reformed," as Calvin himself would have, using a man's name in violation of 1 Corinthians 1, but this sadly ungodly, deranged, hateful, potty mouthed, deluded bigoted attack conveniently fails to realize both that
1. Abraham's only one of four sons and a daughter (=20%) to react so, and
2. his manifestly lunatic and hateful rants rejecting his father's views of God are pathetically incoherent (ably refuted by Doug Wilson on UA-cam, not to mention by his father's hundreds of sermons) and have sadly him made him look so wizened and decrepit as to seem about as old as his father. That's what hate does, and it will do so to you and all hateful others without repentance, as Jesus said in Luke 13. God save us.
@@debraburson9130 Are you pipers sons wife? Did you carry that burden or do you need therapy? Probably both.
Excellent. Praise God for this man.
This is amazing. The question answered in love and honesty.
This little interview convicted me pretty heavily. The reminder Piper gives that we are all flawed; we are broken and chipped jars with the glorious Gospel within. We may make mistakes just as those we look to as leaders will. Yet the important thing to remember is its not about any person...it's about the Gospel.
A decision I thought I had set my direction on has been challenged by this interview.
THANK YOU FOR STAYING FOCUSED ON JESUS!
Amen. Thank God for His people and His Holy Spirit in them. This was all Christ-exalting if you ask me. Praise the Lord! John 1:17
This is just so beautiful!
"He is the Jesus of the Bible, or He is the Jesus of your imagination"
Thank You John Piper!
Wise words from a wise man :)
I love John Piper! More importantly I love that the Lord gives us so many faithful teachers and stewards of His bride.
Joseph Van Name :
You’re a slanderer.
Joseph Van Name dude stop
Joseph Van Name dude....need I remind you the God we are talking about IS love?? You can't be out here spreading hate and claiming you're here in the name of God.
Did Driscoll screw up. Oh heck yeah, he did big time. But you have NO RIGHT to pass judgement and claim God hates these people. Out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. I would question if the God you claim is just a construct of your mind, a God that allows you to be arrogant and spread hate. Spread love, not hate. Yes Driscoll screwed up royally and deserved to be maligned for it. But you have gone too far. To say that God should damn somebody's soul is utter blasphemy. Read 1 John 4:7-21. Wisen up kid. Stop it. God isn't looking for people to defend him, he's looking for humble people who honor him. You are a very anxious man. You are always worried about your future and about being good enough for God, that's why you lash out. The Bible says in 1 Peter 5:6-7 that we must HUMBLE ourselves under God's hand and he'll lift us up. And THAT is how we cast our anxieties on him! I will pray for you that you will see the truth. God bless.
Joseph Van Name :
How exactly did Driscoll blaspheme? Verifiably quote the blasphemy.
Of course, you can’t. You’ve broken the 9th commandment (Ex 20:16) by bearing false witness. You’ve committed slander.
“Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who act faithfully are his delight.”
(Proverbs 12:22)
You need to repent.
Loved John Pipers reply. Does anyone know which sermon John is speaking of that he thought so much of ?
He who exalts himself will be made humble haha, but the humility that comes will build back up to exaltation (Luke 18)
Brothers and sisters in Christ will fall short, because ALL fall short of the glory of God. Jesus however does not. Let's keep our eye on The Christ, reprimand our brothers when necessary, and forgive them as we are called to do.
I appreciate Piper's helpful encouragement for believers to not walk away from Jesus and Jesus' church because of Driscoll and Mars Hill's failings. So many people were hurt and are still walking around wounded by the way leadership treated everyone. They need to be encouraged.
However, I don't agree with Piper's characterization of the "debacle in Seattle" as a satanic victory. I think that characterization feeds the false narrative that those who opposed Mark and called him and the church leaders to repent of an unbiblical ecclesiology (among other things) were "the enemy" or "haters". Though I too once believed that, it simply is not true. The fall of Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill was not the result of some external satanic attack. It was a result of Mark's arrogance, a culture of fear, an unwillingness to repent, and an unbiblical ecclesiology. Paul Tripp characterized Mars Hill as "the most abusive, coercive ministry culture I’ve ever been involved with". Something had to change and thank God change did come.
Satan did not win! On the contrary, I think Mark being taken out of the limelight and Mars Hill splitting up into smaller independent local churches was a REALLY GOOD THING. Every church should be shepherded by qualified elders who "shepherd the flock of God among" them (1 Pet 5:2). The elders who investigated the charges brought against Mark concluded that he was not qualified as an elder. Furthermore, like most megachurch "pastors" Mark was not among the flock in any real way. He did not know the flock, and the flock did not know him. The mega church multisite church model of Mars Hill (and other churches) was and is completely antithetical to the biblical model of church governance wherein each church is to be shepherded by a plurality of elders who are among the flock they shepherd.
The outcome was messy and many folks were hurt by it. I don't want to minimize the real pain that many people still feel. But God is indeed sovereign, and at the end of the day the unrepentant pastor is out of church leadership and the unbiblical multisite megachurch was dissolved into smaller independent churches that at least have the opportunity now to have a healthy biblical eldership that can properly and lovingly shepherd the flock of God among them. I firmly believe that that is a WIN FOR THE GOSPEL!
Seong Kim Exactly!!
Tripp Howard Tripp, hold that thought and think past it.
Driscoll LEFT/ABANDONED his own church to avoid right accountability with his very own elders! Get it?!
DRISCOLL LEFT the church. And many would say he was judged by Jesus/being removed from (at least semi-orthodox) ministry.
Now, he is seeking a platform where he can exercise his rebellion (accountable to no one but himself - Robert Morris, Brian Houston are the same sorts of false teachers, btw.) These men are dangerous and vicious wolves. Read Jude.
Meanwhile, the dear lambs and the weak-minded pastors Mark trained, are certainly suffering spiritual ruin.
Yes, we need to pray for the unchurched Mark has damaged.
***** Paul Tripp said this (and more) in his discussions with some of the local elders of the church. It is recorded in the letter from the 9 elders who called for Mark to step down and submit to a restoration plan on August 22, 2014. It was reported in many news outlets at the time. Here's one such source: www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2014/august/nine-current-mars-hill-pastors-tell-mark-driscoll-step-down.html
This letter was the key turning point for many in their decision to leave Mars Hill.
Seong Kim Yes, satan works in sin, but Mark (like all of us) is still responsible for his own sin. The blame should rightly be laid at Mark's feet, not shifted to some external attack on the church (which is how it was spun by the church).
***** How do you know Paul's opinion was much more nuanced? Were you a party to the conversation between Paul and these elders? Also, I'm not clear on what you're saying. Are you saying that my sharing of the letter that was widely circulated almost a year ago is irresponsible?
This man is a true intellect.
I am glad he said "this was a colossal victory for Satan." I agree with the emphasis on God's redemptive sovereignty in such things, but what about learning from these disasters when they happen? The Driscoll phenomenon wasn't just about Driscoll; his choices were his own, but to some extent the debacle at Mars Hill reflects trends in wider evangelicalism. At some point we have to examine what went wrong if we want to learn from it.
Younger men mentored and discipled by older men. Senior pastors surrounded by established (not placed) eldership in accountability. From the new believer to the most senior elder, have a Paul, have a Barnabas, have a Timothy. Be mentored, be accountable, be mentoring. If everyone needs to be in a small group of peers and accountability, then everyone needs to. Discipleship and mentoring, accountability and transparency, teaching and equipping.
@Pastor Mark Driscoll This is NOT Pastor Mark Driscoll
Great extended Podcast on Christianity Today - The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill.... fascinating insight into what happened.
Wow thank you sir.
That was profound and amazing
That moment... "I don't like everything about YOUR church" "whaaatttt?!?" 😆🤣😍😂
Seemed really odd of a comment to make.
Absolutely amazing! "Dont throw the baby of truth out with the bathwater of sin." Brilliant!
my motives and attitudes are defective too
Mark Driscoll did so much damage at Mars Hills. The mind-blowing thing is that he is still a pastor.
You are correct, brother he did a lot of damage, but I do believe that if Jesus was walking the Earth right now, and if the apostle Paul was walking the Earth right now, a lot of people would be very offended at both of them as well because they would bring correction publicly to men especiallyand I don’t know how many could handle even those two
Good post!
Such maturity
Amen!
So good.
Amen John!
Piper explains things so well. I love My New Church "Trinity" with Mark Driscoll as our Pastor in Scottsdale, AZ
But has he repented and changed? That’s the real question.
@@christianbosse_ I am not God, so will never judge! That is between Mark and God. Trinity Church is growing and I love his teachings. If the church in Seattle did not survive without him then that is the question that should be asked. There are many pastors that could lead that church in Seattle.
I'm grateful that you're plugged into a church and pursuing a personal walk with Christ. Has it been difficult or distracting for you to hear the resounding echoes coming from Christianity Today's recent podcast about Mars Hill? I'm curious if your pastor has acknowledged it in any way.
@@christianbosse_ repentance is between the individual and God. Not by people questioning somebody’s repentance based off of a past that a person may have.
@@christianbosse_ what is he supposed to repent for?
Follow no man.... follow Christ!...
Wonderful
Mark Driscoll is a smooth, entertaining and informative speaker who was finally confronted by nine of his own elders and 21 former pastors who'd had enough of a culture of abuse. This video is a big name professional Christian whitewashing the sins of another big name professional Christian. Piper could have taken a little time to learn exactly what happened at Mars Hill, or he does know and he doesn't care.
But thanks for not disabling comments as so many Christian leaders seem to do.
Basement Berean :
What exactly was that on-going “disqualifying” sin you claim Driscoll was guilty of which you don’t name. Prove it.
I'm so confused as to what you're talking about. He made a horrible mistake in his behavior. And it's bad. But I don't know why people are acting like he was a false teacher out here to get what he wants
At least he has stepped down and continues to preach the Gospel...none of the Word of Faith teachers have done that. They haven’t stepped down and they definitely don’t teach the Gospel. As far as unqualified ministers go, I think Mark Driscoll is probably one of the least of our worries, sotospeak.
Crazy how Christianity Today’s Rise & Fall of Mars Hill podcast provided substantial evidence to support your comment. 🙏🏾
unfortunately so much of this response is minimizing the issue and protecting the image of THE CHURCH, and doesn't address the real trauma of what happened at Mars Hill.
I disagree. He says it was a defeat for the Gospel, “colossal satanic defeat”
And doesn’t it sound like a protection of the image of the church when he says God uses defective people to speak Gospel truths and who has not let Jesus down.
@@Julian-cy3bm I'm not sure I follow, you seem to be saying you disagree while saying things that seem to agree with me. I'll take a stab at what you may be saying. I think you disagree with me saying the response minimizes the issue. I say it minimizes the issue because the fallout is all centered on the church, not those who have been abused.
@@zackattack366 Hey Vincent! Thanks for the reply and my apologies if I didn’t come out clear. I did disagree with your response of the video. What he said was this is not unique and it’s true but it’s just a bigger issue because of the size of Mars hill and who Driscoll is. He put this issue on the Lord and says he is in control over everything in the world, even mention bigger issues. The issue is MH is years gone, when is the church going to actually offer forgiveness and mercy, just like what God does for us daily. Why are our standards above His?
The church is the bride and body of Christ, so of course Piper is going to try to protect it. I was having some fairly critical thoughts of what he was saying, myself, until I his concluding remarks.
5:13 to 5:50 is so Key
Didn’t know Piper knew Jeremy Renner!
Yes if you walk away from his church you walk away from him. Amen amen and amen
Helpful!!!!
If Christians walk away from the likes of Mark Driscoll, who chose to do what he did and willingly taught what he taught, they are not walking away from Jesus or the church. It just happens to be that that pastor or church has walked away from teaching the Gospel Truth. And they should. If there is false teaching by a false pastor, Christians have every right yea even an obligation to distance themselves from false teachers. And yes, God is still in control and can and does turn things that are seemingly bad into good for His glory. Praise God!
I think he was referring to the church as a whole. As in you should still go to church of you leave that one.
@@thechercheur3998 Christians _are_ the church. The place (if they even have a choice!) and mode of worship, study of the scriptures, prayer, and edification, is not a prescriptive recipe. The local church may gather in traditional "church buildings", homes, fire halls, parks, and even in prisons.
Mark Driscoll is on fire for the Lord and on point more than ever.
Amen. True!!! God makes all things new!
You're kidding, right?
@@joshuatreadway4769 About what? No jokes here just observable truth.
@@joshuatreadway4769 Apparently you have not been following Pastor Mark since his time in Seattle but ok, keep judging him for his past sins.
@@alexanderthegreatandterrib4589 I've been following what is going on at his church in Phoenix, abusive behaviour, kicking dozens of people out, slandering, threatening with lawsuits?
I wonder aloud if Driscoll simply got given a pass because many agreed with his doctrinal conclusions and therefore overlooked the glaring issues in how he presented them?
That's exactly what happened. Listen to the podcast "The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill "
I once asked the Lord about the rapture...that same night i had a dream about a van filled with people...Pastor John Piper was the driver...imagine how cool it will be to have brother John drive a van on our way back to Heaven without him holding the stearing wheel...just having him explain all truth through the Holy Ghost while the Lord direct the vessel towards Heaven...i found it awesome lol.
You think God does not speak through dreams? Keith.
Lisandro Perez I don't know if that's what Keith here is saying, but I understand his caution. Though can show me his truth in a many number of ways, we must be careful to distinguish between a natural happening upon the truth of God through general revelation, and directly receiving truth from God through specific revelation. That being said, I doubt you were claiming that God showed you the real rapture, because I don't think you believe that the rapture will be John Piper sitting in the driver's seat of a van that's driving itself. He simply warns against the outcry that, "You received a message directly from God." Which I don't believe you were saying
Of course James we always should.
+Lisandro Perez, winners don't use drugs.
@Angelina Williams
Why are you pasteing the same response to different people? Are you a troll?
There’s a very good reason why all of Mark’s comments on his UA-cam videos are disabled.
I actually am glad they are because Christian comment sections are some of the most repulsive places on earth. Keeping comments off was a good way of preventing poison in comments from distracting from his sermons, especially in a time when nearly everyone had opinions they were willing to burn people over. In a time where no one was open to disagreement or mercy or grace it's good that christians weren't allowed to comment because non-christians would have seen the worst and left instead of hearing some beneficial teachings. I wish more Christian channels had no comments. Get better problems to focus on
@@bufficliff8978 I agree with you about comment sections wholeheartedly. However, in this particular situation I suspect that that was and is not the main driving force behind the decision to disable them.
Amen.
When this brother says that if a person walks away from the institutional church is walking away from Jesus is TOTALLY WRONG. If you walk away from God's people that is wrong, but to connect with a group of believers outside the institutional structure is totally acceptable. Like a home group or house church or fellowship group, All there were for the first 3 hundred years was house church, no church buildings. Consider this
Agreed
Well now after being a believer for 56 years I have seen to much bad within the 4 wall church that I'm no longer a Christian, but a simple follower of Jesus.
The trouble with that is if rejects God's promise to work through pastors and deacons and removes the believer from church discipline as Jesus outlined. Hence, abandoning the "institutional" church (I.e. A church led by a pastor) is rebellion against God's command. There was one church of Ephesus, Galatia, etc. NOT many small house churches in each city, but one united church body organized with pastors and deacons.
@@georgerudesill4302 well if you are a true follower of Jesus _Christ_ then you are a Christian...aka "little Christ." 😊
Anything Mark does now does not allow comments. Should tell it’s own story if you are a thinking individual.
Pride....that is what is driving all of the mega pastors
O my people, they which lead thee cause you to error".
I love Jesus, I love Mark Driscoll, and this video is great as well.
After listening to the rise and fall of mars hills there is no way mark Driscoll should be a pastor
@@dansteuer1411 I suppose the same measure you use to judge him will be used to judge you. Either way, he has blessed my life with his teachings for years. The fact that you don’t like him is irrelevant, Jesus sees him perfectly, and is still using him to impact lives for the good of the kingdom.✌🏼
@@metlica17 please listen to the rise and fall of mars hill and all the people that got hurt by his ministry. I’m not judging him. I’m looking at what he has done and he will have to answer to God for the mistakes he has made just like I will
@@dansteuer1411 “there is no way Mark Driscoll should be a pastor” isn’t a judgement? I have listened to the podcast. He’s certainly made some mistakes, imo he has owned and confessed his mistakes and repented of them publicly.
@@metlica17 He's repented publicly but as the podcast shows, he hasn't gone up to any individual person that was hurt by what he did. Also, it speaks volumes on how that podcast reached out multiple times for Mark to give his side of the story and he refused. Also speaks volumes on how Mark can take zero criticism. A good leader can accept criticism and learn from it. They don't ignore it or block you the minute you say something they don't agree with. And yes like you said he did publicly apologize in general but they are still consequences from the decisions he made and that is not being judgmental; that is just the facts. Same as a person who gets saved or asks for forgiveness lets say a week after they rob a bank. Yes God forgives them but there is still a consequence of going to jail caused by the initial wrong.
How absolutely refreshing to hear this. I imagine most of us are weary from seeing the backbiting and gossiping, and what it is doing to the body of Christ. As if it wasn’t hard enough to get people out of the world, but for them to see us devour one another like this is an absolute end time horror! Let god be true, and every man a liar. Only God knows where Mark and John Lindell need work. And only God knows the truth about so many of these ugly details being broadcast. I hate to see the garden this creates when harvest time comes.
Mark Driscoll has some great teachings. And Mark humbled himself and stepped down. So I haven't lost much confidence in Driscoll.
+Fred Mcelroy There's a huge number of leaders from Mars Hill that he won't admit to doing wrong to. He hasn't handled this situation with much humility at all. Read his resignation letter. He basically said a lot of things you had no proof of, of course no one is perfect, and a lot of people don't like him anymore and he feels unsafe and overwhelmed. Instead of admitting his wrongs, he runs away quietly to Arizona to start a new church. Fresh with a new wardrobe and new marketing tactics.
The man did some great things, but all in all, hurt a ton of people and he has yet to apologize publicly, and at least to the leaders that I know, also in private.
+Matt Crum Oh I didn't know that. Now that you say that he is starting a new church in another state. I think he is not qualified to be in ministry. So I agree with you now.
+Fred Mcelroy curious, What disqualifies him from Ministry. Give me a passage that backs your statement
Well looking back at my comment from 3 months ago...lol
When a man is prideful he is not qualified for the ministry. Because being prideful is a sign of being a novice when it comes to the ministry. (1 Tim. 3:6)
lol. Really
In Tim. 3 He is talking about the man's household and not being a novice which is a young convert. It doesn't say that a prideful person is a novice. Am sure that's the way you want to read it. If pride was what kept man from qualifying as superintendence everyone would be disqualified.
But that is not what it says "for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil.
It is saying if a man can't run his own house how can he lead a Church. It is saying if a man is a young convert and you give him the responsibility of superintendence he will be tempted with pride and fall into the same condemnation as the devil.
Perhaps you can find something else in that passage of scripture that would disqualify him.
Please don't use your imagination in your interpretation.should be done and in
Am not sure why Christians get on video's like this and comment like there the authority on what should be done or on why the the speaker is wrong.Then apply condemnation. This is what the word of God calls gossip which creates division.
The Word says
At the same time they will also learn to be idle, going from house to house and being not only idle, but also gossips and busybodies, speaking of things they should not mention.
For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
Modern day internet busybodies.
If we have a problem with a brother the Word of God says this; "Brothers, if someone is caught in a trespass, you who are spiritual should restore him with a spirit of gentleness. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.
So I would be extremely careful on how you speak/write
Jesus is sitting down at the right hand of God.
According to Piper...we don't have choices
Was it really that bad? Didn't the churches just break apart and form their own thing with some smaller ones closing? Not to belittle anything, just curious. Seems like in the grand scale certain Christians are facing much more, especially physical violence.
***** These inner divisions in the church are nothing new. They even occurred in Paul's time. Nothing new under the sun.
It's not that bad. Just sad still. Especially for those who loved Driscolls preaching. For example I loved Driscolls teachings and not only that but he was the first pastor for me. I accepted Christ out of the church (which I go to one now) but Driscoll was my pastor before I ever had a church and a pastor. So to not be able to see the pastor you started with can make you sad. Just hope people don't take it to the point where they stop following Jesus
Should we overlook smaller crimes in society because there are larger ones going on like murder and rape? Let's let shoplifting slide because its not murder. Driscoll hurt a lot of people and embarrassed the body of Christ. In addition to having his books sales falsified for the sake of his ego. He committed serious sins as a pastor and scripture commands they be dealt with. The fact that there are bigger issues in Christianity doesn't mean we overlook smaller ones.
J Pep :
What exactly was that on-going “disqualifying” sin you claim Driscoll was guilty of which you don’t name. Prove it.
ua-cam.com/video/4ZwNnHJLUMc/v-deo.html
Here's a podcast of two former "employees" or members who speak on some of what it was like.
This was 7 years ago. Wonder what he thinks now.
Can somebody tell me who is Mark Driscoll and what did he do that Piper needs to talk about it?
Driscoll was the pastor of Mars hill church in Washington, and he verbally abused elders and leaders and probably even church goers for over a decade and caused a lot of people to walk away from the church and much much more that no one else knows about except for the people that endured the abuse.
Djentile 777 : "Probably"? And was there actual abuse, or just unpleasant but justified rebuke? I really don't know. Do you?
@@tamething1 "Allegedly"
iam very sad about the whole mark driscoll thing, I do belive that his head started to get to big for him to carry around, BUT he is a Great teacher, and his Doctrin was RIGHT ON.
+john dennis what happened exactly?
+Louis Unger that's what I want to know.
Louis Unger what I heard was he was unteachable, a little arrogant and not open to authority. Therefore he disqualified himself from a pastoral role, and the signs of him becoming too big for his britches hit him and were being exposed slowly and surely as time went on.
I pray for him and love his old sermons. He's a brother, tho he messed up big time
what is the background here? did Driscoll stop believing, or... ?
Dadutta Driscoll has gone "down the tubes" on many levels. Though his bad behaviors (lying, abuse, vulgarity, hostility, betrayal) are there - his former teachings are very dangerous and false.
Search "Phil Johnson" and MD. Phil's sermon refuting Driscoll's vulgarity is far more important than Driscoll betraying his own elders/church. IMO.
Also search MD over at fightingforthefaith.com There are 10 years worth of discernment on Driscoll along with many others. Good stuff.
Get strong and be edified.
Gabe, with due respect . . .you are confusing scripture's distinction between those who preach the (true) Gospel for personal gain (1 Corinthians) vs. outright wolves from WITHIN the church, deceiving and feeding themselves (Jude 9-22). If you do the homework yourself, you can learn HOW Driscoll fits in the second category.
Especially NOW, Mr. Driscoll has PROVEN himself to be false. He doesn't believe in the correct Jesus in scripture - he endures/agrees with (?) anti-trinitarian false teachers (Robert Morris, Jimmy Evans) and is being funded by Robert Morris to attempt to rebuild his BUSINESS.
Check out the BUSINESS LICENSE Driscoll took out to create "The Trinity Church". It is NOT a true Christian church, btw - since no where in scripture does it teach a real pastor to register a business license to plant a church.
Have you even studied the topic of "church growth" as in the video "Church of Tares"? A long topic but certainly reveals HOW the wolves pose as christian pastors to deceive the flock.
Warning! Mr. Gabe, nowhere in Holy Scripture is any Christian (nor angel for that matter) to so much as acknowledge Satan or demons!
Christians look to Jesus Christ ALONE. Hebrews 12:2
Where is your confidence and attention in the ONE LORD OF ALL?
Any person noticing, let alone speaking to, demons or Satan, are disobeying God. Jude 1:9 (Actually, read ALL of Jude.)
There is NOT one single molecule on this planet nor any being in the spiritual realm that is not subject to the governing power of Jesus Christ! Matthew 28:18 PERIOD.
Here is Jesus' teaching about those who cast out demons in His name:
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ Matthew 7:21-23
So you think Jesus Christ died on the cross for NOTHING? Satan is more powerful?
Hmmm . . . go ahead with that.
When a so-called, professing "christian" cannot give BIBLICAL evidence to support their claims, THAT is the problem.
Jesus has more street cred than you or anyone else. I'm not important. Just know . . .
each one of us will be judged by the written Word of God. : \
5:28-5:50 too trill
I would like to find that sermon by Mark Driscoll concerning the authority and inspiration of the bible. Does anyone have a title or link?
@Pastor Mark Driscoll i think Driscoll got hacked by Nigerian prince spam mail
@Pastor Mark Driscoll lying piece of Dung. Yours is a fake account
To say that Driscoll just made a mistake like everyone else completely discounts the seriousness of what happened and the pain that people under his leadership went through. Spiritual abuse is one of the most damaging things a person can go through. There are people suffering from PTSD because of what happened at this church.
+abbasgirl74 PTSD?....Are you kidding? Did he physically torture somebody? Did he shoot at them? Come on. Don't throw terms like PTSD around so lightly.
The most outrageous idea to worldly, individualistic, American “Christians” today is the idea of pastoral authority. But it’s Biblical(Hebrews 13:17).
Come on PTSD?
I agree with the PTSD statement. Unless you have suffered under this type of abuse keep your opinions to yourself.
This comment has nothing to do with the character of John Piper, but I bet he could do a killer Darth Sidious Impression
Watching this after finishing The Rise & Fall of Mars Hill podcast by Christianity Today. I highly recommend it for anyone looking to gain a more robust perspective on the Evangelical case study that is Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill that goes far beyond the oversimplified “everyone makes mistakes but God still uses them” narrative that Piper seems to be sharing here.
Ya I'm in the middle of the podcast series as well. Maybe I'm just a bit to caught up in the series, but I find Piper's response a bit soft. Not that I think he should be slandering Mark or anything. But it seems like there is a bit of a lack of acknowledgement of just how bad some of the abuse was at Mars Hill. I wonder if his tone would change if he listened to the podcast series
@@austinfitch2395 i would love to see a Piper reaction video to the series lol
While John is making some sense about "not throwing away the baby with the bathwater of sin". And everyone fails to live up to the standards sometimes. It's tremendously tone deaf and insensitive to those who've suffered trauma at the hands of an abusive leader to essentially say "look in the mirror" or " forgive and get over it".
Leadership in the church is a position like no other. As a representative of Christ on earth, as an example of His life, a pastor shepherds a flock and has their trust. He nurtures and nourishes them, either for good or bad, by his own flesh, traditions of men or the Scriptures and the Spirit.
The pulpit is no place for abuse. Period. There's a place for pastors who fail and fall. ... it's in the seats with the rest of the people listening to a qualified teacher.
You will be persecuted if you speak truth, as those peophets in old testament. Which one were speaking smoothly and diplomatically?
If I was doing this on my channel I would be accused of gossip
Mi gusta huevos y queso...FIRST COMMENT BABY!
PaulWallification *Me gustan los huevos y el queso.
8:28... I think Norm was speaking to "church" (little "c") and Piper was speaking to "Church" (big "C"). Don't put your faith in your "pastors, ministers and priests." Your faith is misplaced and should be placed with Jesus.
Mark is a man and men make mistakes. Still the man!
Mark is a flawed man like all of us. What he did long ago was bad but the dude preaches the gospel and men and women are born again because of it
James 3:1 - Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.
Someone needs to read their bible more
John Pipers exact words on his website this is an exact quote " This includes-as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem- God's having even brought about the Nazis' brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child..."
I grew up evangelical (Church of the Nazarene), but I began a long slow drift away from my childhood faith beginning with the election of Ronald Reagan and the politicizing of evangelical churches by conflating it with the Republican party. Now we have an entire segment of the Christian church in America that has fallen into the sin of Christian nationalism. The new Reformed movement championed by Driscoll, as I observe it, is closely aligned with that sin. I never attended a service at Mars Hill, or any of its affiliated congregations, so I can only judge him by the public foot print of his personal behavior and its toxic impact on the public perception of Christianity. I accept Rev. Funk's statement that Mark has expressed regret for his behavior, but I have never observed it in the public media. In fact, the reverse seems to be true. All I have seen are indications that Driscoll remains largely unrepentant and is now trying to replicate his "brand" with a church in Scottsdale, AZ. I think that Rev. Funk, who refers to young "left leaning" Christians who have left the church is a vast overstatement. I believe that many young Christians today have not left the church so much as they have left the institutions and theology of Reformed fundamentalism. For the last 30 years I have attended an Anabaptist congregation. While we hold Scripture in high regard we identify with more with Christians who seek to follow Jesus, as opposed to those obsessed with building theological boxes in which to contain him.
I live in Seattle and the fall out was pretty bad. Some successes though. Some of the Satelite churches became their own entities and remain to this day. The "mother ship " church building was purchased by another "youngish" church that preaches the gospel.
I don’t get how he calls the decrease in Christianity around the world a tactical defeat
Because what is decreasing is not Christianity. It's a winnowing.
I wonder why those other pastors at MH church didn't just leave and go start their own church? They didn't have to break apart a church to do that. I agree with Piper, it was an attack. Walking away from "the church" isn't same as leaving one particular church to go start another one. Sometimes God asks leaders to do just that. I don't even really know Driscoll, and I feel bad for the guy, because I see a bunch of nasty comments that are down right hateful. I agree with Piper about if you want to create a church create it biblically
I like Pastor John, but in regards to his first point, I believe his priorities are misplaced - not all wrongdoing is equal, and not all people are in positions where their wickedness is equally consequential. We should be slow to judge inasmuch as we are failing to an equivalent or greater degree - many of us are not and are obligated to denounce Driscoll’s abuse in the strong language, despite the fact we too are flawed. Let’s not use our imperfection as an excuse to shirk the unpleasant task of holding leaders to account.
Why won't they invite pastor Gino Jennings
Mars Hill Church. Gonzo
@Angelina Williams Jesus started one church and said it would last forever
The Roman Catholic Church
Jesus started one church and said it would last forever
The Roman Catholic Church
as i christian of 40 years im questioning our whole church model that is not primarily relational but informational. Christianity should be love surpassing knowledge not men on pedestals with a "show" feel. many people cant connect and grow in the church model that exists now. i am so wounded by shallow commitments to relationship. people should matter more than anything else. discarding connections for other distractions is shallow empty and problematic.
[26] For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
[27]
But God hath chosen the *FOOLISH* things of the world to confound the
wise; and God hath chosen the *WEAK* things of the world to confound the
things which are mighty;
[28] And *BASE* things of the world,
and things which are *DESPISED* hath God chosen, yea, and *things which
are not*, to bring to nought things that are:
[29] That no flesh should glory in his presence. *1Cor **1:26**-29*
This is the church that Jesus Christ is building. They are not celebrity pastors, teachers, wealthy or popular. They are not book writers or conference leaders. They are not wise or mighty or noble. They are not money hungry. They care not for fame or wealth. They do not adopt worldly practices to win over the world. NOBODY can convert anybody. True conversion is from Christ himself. True conversion is an ongoing process of the heart and mind.
truthseeker : Using the KJV tells us you’re a traditionalist.
@@yeoberry Its the best version.
@@lionofjudahlambofgod9132 :
The kjv is an early 17th century Anglican translation based on corrupted manuscripts and translated with many errors and in archaic language.
The issue was not Mark's "imperfection" or being "defective" or not having a good "wine skin" or "dirty bath water." Nor was it a "strategic satanic victory." The issue is that Mark sinned against God, people, and the "sheep" in his flock and reaped the consequences of those sins. Satan didn't take Mark out. His ongoing sin did. His sin Biblically disqualified him from ministry. I don't understand why Piper can't just say, "Marks sins and the consequences of them took him out," instead of turning the whole thing into some cosmic battle. Piper's mental and verbal gymnastics are just that - gymnastics. The whole thing is sad with devastating consequences for Mark, his family, the church, and many many people. Hopefully Mark (and the people complicit in his sin and the people he sinned against) get the help and healing so very needed.
Rebecca Aske Exactly the point I've tried to make. I don't understand why Piper and others can't just say "Marks sins and the consequences of them took him out," when that's what actually happened.
+Tripp Howard Well ask yourself this, what was the question Piper was given? Everyone knows already that marked sinned and the consequences fell on himself and his beloved church. Don't put it out that only you two know and we don't, no, we all know what actually happened hence why we including piper aren't still focused on it. So the focus is no longer what happened or what did he do? but how can we help the beloved church and those walking away? And winging about piper is not going to help!
Rebecca Aske hy
John literally says at 4:30 in the video, "If Mark was defective in some biblical way of leadership - which I think is true - and I think he admits are true" which is basically what you are asking him to do. He admits that Mark were sinning in his position as a leader and has taken the consequences for it.
Rebecca Aske :
What exactly was that on-going “disqualifying” sin you claim Driscoll was guilty of which you don’t name. Prove it.
John Piper is real 😂
I love how John believes what he says
@Pastor Mark Driscoll God doesn't want my money, please continue to pray for me. I would like to talk sometime
truly you are wicked
Mark is just fine. I don't get this attacking Mark. Not for us to do. Who is who on here? Old guy is J.P? The young guy is too SWEET!
I wonder if he would have the same grace for women teachers and preachers?
I sort of get this, but the Bible doesn't necessarily ordane that we meet at 10.30 on Sunday, in an expensive building to sing songs which line the pockets of songwriters who may or may not have a strong personal faith... I don't like the fact that when there's a moral prerogative to go to church, the church can get away with things while knowing people will still feel compelled to go. I'm partly sharing my view and partly just venting, but it can be hard to find a church which feels solid, enriching and - also - safe, these days, and if the church is the universal body of believers... I'm still a part of it even if I don't attend a specific brick building on a Sunday morning...
Also, no one is addressing the manipulation of the 501c3s that enable them to build their own kingdoms.
@@wlknonsonshine Weeeell, I don't know anything about that myself! I'm just focused on the relational aspect of things really! Peace to you and yours :)
@@CJ-sw8lc right...because you were talking about expensive buildings & lining their pockets. The 501c3 is how they do it in the US. Why are you acting like someone attacked you personally?
@@wlknonsonshine Haha, sorry?? I think you possibly misunderstood/misread/misinterpreted my message. I'm sure you made an excellent point, I just don't know much about the subject - that's all!
@@CJ-sw8lc gotcha. Do you live in the US?
What is so sad about this interview is that Piper is not seeing the forest for the trees when it comes to the institutional Church and his interpretation of what 'church' is. Many people are genuinely walking away from the Church in general these days but not from Jesus. Piper says this cannot be because the Church is ordained by Jesus. YES, the people who are dropped out, doing the will of God from a heart of love, taking up the cross and being transformed in their minds and living in unity with each other under the power of God's spirit ARE THE CHURCH!!! Only problem is that for the most part this is NOT how John Piper sees it. He still puts a lot of trust in the institutional church system which for the most part is not the true church of God for today. So he was very wrong on that point.
What is also so sad is that so much of what Driscoll is getting flak for from many angles is totally NOT legitimate, but is getting very little flak for the things he preached and the ways he was that were and are blatantly wrong such as sexual perversion (anal sex issues, etc), spousal abuse and violent behavior, etc. Because so many Christians are doing anything but serving God and are anything but disciples, they fail to see the truth in all these issues including the fact that Mark was greatly used by the Lord for a purpose. They attack him for personal pet peeves instead of for the false things he taught and the things he said were okay which are totally NOT okay. But this is because for the most part, the people are doing the same things themselves and are involved in the same perversions and secret sins. So they don't own up to what is genuinely wrong with Mark Driscoll for fear it will expose too much of their own personal disobedience and compromise.
There's nothing sad about the interview for those with eyes to see. You greatly err in misinterpreting Piper; as I've followed him closely for decades I can assure you your absurd notion about people walking away from the Church but not "Jesus" is to at least some degree "emergent" nonsense where this mythical "Jesus" has a wax nose fools can twist any way they like as their puppet so very different from Acts where the blinding radiance of his glory knocks Saul off his horse and from Revelation where the same terrifying majesty causes his best friend John to fall like a dead man. And typical for emergent nonsense you have no Scripture, the Word of God Written coextensive with Jesus the Word of God Incarnate, as support. I have no idea how many HUNDREDS of Piper's sermons have radically BIBLICALLY transformed my life to be more Biblical, by which Biblical foundation to be able to weather agonizing storms like the failures of Church leaders, but I pray you will do likewise to come to a better understanding of God & His Word Incarnate and Written coextensive than you seem to have. Glory to God alone!
The idea that true Christians walk away from the church is “sad” - and wrong. If they’re walking away it’s because they’re not the church (1 John 2:18).
Mike David k
Mike David you, sir, nailed it.
Piper is shortsighted in this, mistaking ongoing spiritual manipulation for a sin that you can just repent of and step back into ministry. If I didn’t know any better (and I don’t), it may be safe to assume there is similar spiritual abuse going on at Piper’s church; one thing the Mars Hill podcast delved into was how a culture can unwittingly cover and excuse the sins of the celebrity-type at the top. In essence, Mars Hill fell because its elders took way too long to properly hold Driscoll accountable or depose him. I can only pray, and hope and believe that Piper’s co-elders are not blind to that pitfall
This is good and Johns right but I would say this has less to do with people leaving the church and where are leaders within the body held accountable for their actions.
Just remember somebody pointed out to Mark he was in the wrong and he responded with not being held accountable to no one. Not a pastor from a smaller church or his own board of elders.
Why does Piper not present the clear words of Jesus in Matthew 18 not followed at many levels and in many ways . . . Driscoll departed from the words of Jesus but Piper cannot say it . . .
"He permitted a tactical defeat for the Gospel." Umm, really? You mean He didn't predestine and predetermine that before the foundations of the earth?
This is what I hate. I am only 3:39 min. In but I hate when people like John say we are letting Jesus down regularly but, when we are doing a great job, it's not us it's God.
It poses some problems, one problem is we some how we get blamed yet God in his Omniscience can't save us. See if we are failing and our faith is not in us but in him, then he is the one in control. He is the one to blame when things go wrong and right.
So issue is we don't have free will really and everything is deterministic. So why go through this play and go through this pain and suffering and joy as well that we never choose or have no part in it.
Usually the option given is something like we really have two options pick God or devil(which is anything that is not God). If we pick devil we are going to just dance to our DNA and if we pick God we will be puppets and he will be just pulling our strings.
And we can switch back in forth maybe. That is essentially what it is. Bad is from the devil, good is from God. We are just the car. What is the point then, we are just machines with complicated software programs.
i think you misunderstood understand, friend. We are definitely to blame. What you say at the very end there, good is from GOD, bad is from the devil - where is Satahn/the devil from? Where did he come from?
(Job).
A weak earthen vessel is not the same as a sinful vessel.
what about the little fact that the church is the body of Christ and has the mind of Christ.....we are called to love our enemies....so if you find them every Sunday it cuts out the time trying to go out and find them.......so my question to all the "reformed guys" what exactly is their problem with Orthodoxy? why do they seem to act as if the church started with the reformation and not before?
The Reformation was attempting to get back to the biblical Christianity passed down by the apostles before the Roman Catholic and other orthodox churches became all powerful and eventually persecuted biblical Christians, among others. I recently taught on this at our church. You may be interested in the talk with accompanying slideshow. Simply search for Make Sure Ministries here on UA-cam. You're welcome to give me feedback on my presentation.