Amen! Praying for unity in God’s Truth! From the little research I have done on Orthodox, I am excited about what new Traditions y’all might bring to the table. We also need the Protestants for their zeal for evangelization and good praise and worship music! :)
On purgatory: I am a retired cop. A catholic Priest was our chaplain and he often rode with me and taught me much. I cherish our time together. Toward the end, he was suffering from cancer and was in a great deal of pain. I remember him wincing and saying a quiet prayer in my car one night. I asked if he was OK. He explained to me that he was applying his worldly pain to someone else's debt in Purgatory. This lesson gave me a much better understanding and I think this definitely qualified as a act. I think it's relevant to your point on this matter. Thank You Fr. Collins.
@@vanorisk You don't get to rip out the book of maccabees and say purgatory isn't in the Bible. Protestants are also the only denomination of Christianity to reject the deuterocanonical books, all the other churches with actual apostolic roots to Christ and his disciples accept the deuterocanonical Canon of the old testament.
@@eddardgreybeard Since when is the majority always right? Nowhere in the Bible is there a verse stating purgatory is real. Seriously? You think protestants do not believe that our Lord rose from the dead?
I think he forgot "we believe in one baptism for the FORGIVENESS OF SINS" and "one holy AND CATHOLIC church" lol I wish SO MUCH I could mentally accept protestantism...lol. I love how thet trust the Bible, even though it's this same church that says those books are reliable lol
I'm a Catholic but I also go to an evangelical church on Sundays and they usually recite the Apostle's Creed, although they change the part that says "I believe in the Holy Catholic Church" to "I believe in the Universal Church".
@@hullie7529 Have you ever asked them what *else* the Church believed during this period of time? It's going to start looking very Catholic very quickly...
“We agree on the early creeds of the church. Except we reject most of the canons of those councils that wrote and confirmed those creeds.” Uh…what??? 🤤 Silly Protestants.
@@hullie7529 Huh? It is a sin against the 1st Commandment, and thus a mortal sin, to give true worship to a false god or false worship to the true God. Protestantism falls in the second part of that.
@@Inari1987 Brother read the New Testament which is the foundation of our faith , that is the foundation not Roman cannon or Pope decrees. New testament is closed cannon and even catholic leaders know that. You can't add or take away from it just build on it. It goes over offices, ordances and how the church is really supposed to meet, and it's nothing like a mass. That's why it was written down. 2 John clearly says don't change the basics ( paraphrasing)but apparently Catholics don't read their bibles and Hosea says people die because lack of knowledge. This is all in the douay rheims bible to. What part of idolitry don't people understand my friend. I don't care how many degrees someone has or what extra outside writtings say, if it don't match inspired New Testament scripture it's only an opinion. I'm not your enemy and I believe catholics love God too but they are decieved and it's obvious when you research it.
@@Moe-bb3bm The New Testament made me Catholic. In fact I was using the New American Standard at the time. At the moment, I had that Bible in front of me. Very presumptuous of you to tell me to read the Bible when I was...well..reading the Bible.
Hahaha 😂😂, he says he don't want to misrepresent the Catholic church, do u hear yourself Mike buddy, let me tell you straight to your face Mr pastor, you cannot misrepresent nor represent the Catholic church because you're not a part of it...😂😅😄 You're a laughing stock buddy
Hi there, myself arun I will make it as short as possible I am a young catholic apologetic, you can call be beginner, I am searching for good frnds with whom I can engage discussions , Q&As sharing thoughts on catholic apologetics. If interested we can go ahead with any social media platform, or can you guide if you know any Thank you
@Jacki Nix yah, you are indeed home, but only earthly home that doesn't change anything about your salvation. Christians look forward to be home with our Heavenly Father, not back to religion that teach us to pray to Mary and submit ourselves to the so call "infallible" Pope.
@@veekee75 " submit ourselves to the so call "infallible" Pope." Don't you veekee "submit" yourself to the authority of your pastor to understand scripture? If not your pastor, who is your authority that you "submit" to, to understand any particular verse of scripture??
Would love to see you guys have a conversation. Mike was part of the reason I became a Christian and Trent is part of the reason I remained a Christian and now signing up for RCIA classes
It’s frustrating watching this and knowing I bought into a lot of their points when I first became a Christian. Now I’m an Orthodox Christian so I have my fair share of differences with Roman Catholicism, but so much of what he’s saying can also be said about the Orthodox Church and it’s such a misrepresentation of what the Church has always taught.
Exactly how i readjusted my approach to apologetics. Most Protestants forget Orthodoxy exists, and their beliefs functionally seek to invalidate the fullness of Christian tradition up until the reformation. They will unironically state that authentic Christianity didn't exist until the reformation
@@3leon306 That's not true. Mike has debated individuals, but he didn't do well so he wants to work on that. That should be admirable. Plus, calling someone a clown isn't helpful to the topic at all.
It's the same with how protestants today will accept the Trinity, which was articulated by the Church fathers, but then reject those same fathers on other matters.
ECF aren’t infallible and we shouldn’t treat them as such… They didn’t agree on everything That said the RCC does not claim a monopoly on ECF or creeds and confessions…church history doesn’t start 1517
@Prasanth Thomas The word "trinity" is not in Scripture nor is the concept explicitly defined, which is why various trinitarian heresies have existed over the years. Church councils defined the Trinity as Christians understand it today, which is why non-Catholics are inconsistent in their sola scriptura.
@Prasanth Thomas If you are "shocked" by my position, then you have a very bland life. The text you give from Matthew specifies Baptism, but it does not explain the doctrine of the Trinity or the way in which the 3 divine persons relate to one another. This is why the Filioque caused division in the Church--the doctrine is not self-evident. So yes, there is Biblical evidence for the Trinity all throughout Scripture, but the doctrine itself required defining by Church Councils. You even acknowledged as much when you listed various heresies on the nature of the Trinity. My fundamental point, which you seem to be missing, is that protestants will accept the Trinitarian doctrine as defined by Church councils, but reject those same councils on other matters such as the Eucharist, Salvation & Grace, etc. I honestly don't understand your point of contention other than pedanticism.
I was once a Catholic who thought like a protestant. I had problems with the Papacy, with the rituals and the mysticism. but in just the last couple of years, as I delved deeply into the study of Catholicism, I realised that I was wrong about everything. and i realised the hatred for and criticism of the Catholic Church are the result of misunderstandings, misinformation and disinformation, and more often than not, erroneous readings of Scripture. Which this rebuttal of Trent's proves. recently, protestant apologist Frank Turek, whose work i like, pointed out that there were already thousands of Christians before a single word of the New Testament was written. he probably didn't realise that he was negating sola scriptura there. because if it's true that only Scripture alone is needed and not Apostolic tradition and succession, what about these early Christians who didn't have the Bible? the fact that Jesus Himself didn't write a single word but taught and preached orally and told His disciples to go out and preach to the world, that really says a lot. I recently did Trent's short course on the protestant reformation, and it struck me that just shortly after they separated from the Church, the protestants were already arguing among themselves who's right and who's wrong and which interpretation of Scripture is correct. it's no surprise then that today there are over 40,000 denominations across the world. let us pray that our protestant brothers and sisters will come to understand and accept the Catholic Church. Because the Tradition is beautiful, the Faith is beautiful, and God's grace and mercy are beautiful.
I was in(i guess im still in a little) a similar situation. I was raised in a Catholic family and attended Catholic schools up till freshman year of high school. I stopped going to Catholic school in my sophomore year which distanced me away from the Church. I eventually stopped everything and gave up and felt overwelmed and lost on who to believe(mostly about the pope). After years, I am now currently researching again the deuterocanonicals and also apostolic succession. I found my bible from freshman year in highschool and it has a brief histoy timeline about the creation of the bible and the apocrypha. Its a catholic new American so it includes the deuterocanonicals. I also was just not as educated about the main differences between Catholicism, Orthodox, and Protestants. I was raised Catholic so everything we did in church and prayer was natural to me. I didnt know that Protestants were that much that different when it comes to what prayers Catholics have and others don't. But the more I learn and study about all of them the more I like Catholicism because the history and traditionalism. I also agree to not mess with God's word by taking out books because of mainly Martin Luther. I agree with the 7 sacraments. I was baptized while I was baby and i was confirmed in 8th grade. I'm still trying to understand how our current system for the papacy and how the power is distributed to determine how we practice Catholicism.
@@Kim_Jong_Spoon I'm also in the process of trying to understand and follow the teachings of Catholic Church. I was also raised Catholic and my high school was Catholic. But I'm realizing how I barely understood any of our teachings beyond the gospel (Jesus dying for our sins etc.). I didn't understand (still don't enough) where reasons for Church authority, papacy, dogmas about Mary and sacraments come from. But I do hope to become better now. I also looked at general arguments for Christianity so I can say why I believe it. I just wanted to say you're not alone and I hope we'll all grow in faith and understanding.
Not sure you’re actually open to any answers to those points you bring up but here’s one anyways. The earliest Christians didn’t have the New Testament written down. They had the apostles who wrote the New Testament right there teaching them directly. Apostles who had walked and talked and learned from Jesus in the flesh. The original Apostles didn’t use the New Testament because they were teaching it, directly from what Jesus had taught them as the Holy Spirit gave them remembrance. It became written down as they died off, or as ppl realized Jesus likely wasn’t returning in their lifetimes. So to preserve the teachings from change, they wrote them all down. That’s where Sola Scriptura comes in. We can verify that these teachings were what people who physically met and learned from God taught. Because of these they hold special absolute authority. It’s not that other written works can’t be used, or that the Holy Spirit doesn’t speak today, but they lack the same authority as what we know to have come directly from God. After all, if you can’t believe what the ones who walked with Jesus say about Him, you definitely can’t believe what someone who never met Him face to face says.
@@davidpo5517 hi. yes, you got it right about the early Christians. and thanks for explaining why Protestants believe in sola scriptura. it clears things up a bit. however, it doesn't really prove that the Bible alone is the sole authority. the Apostles didn't get together and decide to write everything down to hand down the authority in written form. in fact, all the New Testament documents were written in separate locations at different times. there was no concerted effort or a collective decision by the Apostles. and Jesus never instructed anyone to write down anything. plus the fact that the Bible itself doesn't say Scripture is the only authority. in fact, the Bible states the many other authoritative ways that instruction is given and the handing down of authority and Apostolic succession (laying of hands, bishops, etc). also consider that the writings of the New Testament was compiled together only much much later, and the canon was defined only in the 4th century by the Catholic Church. the fact remains, Sacred Tradition gave us Sacred Scripture, hence both are equally important and both go hand-in-hand. before there was Sacred Scripture written down, there was Sacred Tradition. hope this helps to explain why we Catholics don't believe in sola scriptura.
It should also be noted that Johannes Gutenberg didn't invent the printing press until 1436, and literacy didn't become widespread (in Europe at least) until the Age of Enlightenment. So if God wanted humanity to rely on sola scriptura, people would naturally have a hard time doing so until we naturally came to the historical development needed to have personal bibles and read them on their own. Otherwise, people would have needed the bible read out to them, likely from an authoritative or educated person.
Imagine if some game developers worked for a game company, left and started their own company using the knowledge and resources they've collected, and called the previous game company a cult.
Imagine if the game company that they worked for, borrowed an engine and code from an indie company then proceeds to take credit as the sole owner of it. Meanwhile, those game developers went to go work at the indie company with the source code.
Catholicism didnt start Christianity. With the false doctrine's one even doubts that catholicism is Christian. Wake up from your deception, read and study the Word, believe and be saved.
As a convert from the protestant world who became catholic because of a deeper understanding of logic and history, it's very frustrating to listen to the overly simplistic arguments and/or fallacious statements about Catholic Christianity from this guy. It took me many days of coming back to this to finally finish, he gets me so angry. Thank you, Trent, for your charitable rebuttal.
I’m sorry but you have been misled. You are responsible for studying God’s word. When you learn the truth, you will learn that Peter is not the Rock. Christ is the Rock 1 Corinthians 3:11 • Adding doctrines is forbidden Deuteronomy 4:2 • There aren’t any officiating new covenant priests. We have a new ministry in the new covenant. Ephesians 4:11 • God does not show favoritism Romans 2:11 -- there is no evidence in the scriptures that the church was built on a human. ****Equality amongst the apostles**** “Ye are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.” (****Ephesians 2:20****) “And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.” (****Revelation 21:14****). • Peter was no different than the others. • Mary nor the saints can hear prayers. There’s only one mediator in heaven between God & Man. 1 Timothy 2:5 ► For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, There is so much more wrong with that church. I can’t list it all but they are no longer a church that belongs to God. That’s why they are blessing same sex couples. • In order to receive salvation, we must all repent and accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior. We need no Eucharist, no veneration of Mary, no long list of good works, no baptism regeneration, no sacrament of reconciliation, no rosary, no pope, no papacy, no belief in Peter as the Rock 1 Corinthians 3:11, no man-made doctrine, no priests, no infallible magisterium, no Vatican, no communion of saints, no catechisms, no Marian dogmas, no transubstantiation, but only by faith through grace are we saved. ****Ephesians 2:8**** "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast".
@Empyreal I don't think I have ever really met someone who when I said I was Catholic they didn't know I meant Catholic. Catholic is catholic. I don't mean this in a snarky way. The term "Roman Catholic" actually was a slur for Catholics that Protestants made up because of the power of the Pope. Sometimes it is annoying, and sometimes it is frustrating. We are not the Roman Catholic Church, we are the Catholic Church. Roman Catholic refers to a part of Catholocism. We believe the same things, follow the same pope and love the same Christ in the Eucharist. God bless tho:)
@@zelie1155 I ended up with just saying "the Latin rite" instead but whenever it would come up it would only be among people who wouldn't have needed the clarification 🤔
THANK YOU! My father is a Maronite catholic, my mom was Syriac orthodox, and me and my family worship as Byzantine catholics. "Roman" catholic is a misnomer from the English schism, as thet still wanted to be catholic, just English catholic. Our head is in Rome, but our patriarchy and liturgy is NOT!
@Empyreal We would say that the Church that Jesus founded, subsists in the [c]atholic Church. We don't or at least shouldn't deny that protestants are Christians, that's not the issue because every validly baptized person is part of the Church so we don't restrict that to the visible institution. When we refer to the Catholic Church, we're talking about the church referred to in the creed
@@tony1685 No. I'd choose a reliable scholarly source than YOU boy. You ain't the word of the truth, only the Bible is. Not you, not anybody. Only the Bible so don't act funny with me.
Praying for others is good. pride in ones self isnt good, it leads to arrogance and not being humble... If you knew you were a sinner in need of God's grace. you would renounce yourself and love God and others differently. That's a step into what God meant to be born again. As a saying i learned, The church is like a Hospital for Sinners to be saved.
How did we get the Bible in the first place? This isn’t a book Protestants put together but rather edited after the fact from the early Christians … who btw were having Mass and communion at the time.
I tried to ask this once in a FB thread- “Who gave us the Bible? Who put it together?” This person would just answer “God.” I didn’t believe their were people who thought the Bible (KJV) literally dropped out of the sky, all put together. But apparently so?
@@tony1685 The Bible is not just to the Jews but to all. Romans 11:13 St. Paul writes: 13 “Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry” St. Paul was “an apostle to the gentiles”, which makes sense, as he and the other apostles went all over the world to convert them to Christianity, not Judaism. And how was the Catholic Church created in the 4th Century? You’d be discrediting the 28 popes before the 4th Century(not including St. Peter), along with the 21 Patriarchs of Antioch before the Edict of Milan(again not including St. Peter), the 17 Patriarchs of Alexandria(excluding St. Mark the Evangelist) before the Edict of Milan, etc. The Church began with Matthew 16:18 by Christ which was then followed up by Pentecost. God bless.
@@bernardokrolo2275 he didn’t say those exact words but his argument for why it’s not canon was “because it teaches that you can pray for the dead which is wrong” which is obviously a ridiculously absurd circular logic
@@nicholasolsen4634 o..i see that you are catholich Nicholas..you are precise..but i get your point..same as he said im determening what goes in canon..who watching on raindeers when you commenting on youtube?
Even Catholic scholars realize that the deuterocanonical books have a different standing in the Old Testament compared to, say, the Pentateuch. 2 Maccabees may have been included in the canon, as seems to be the case with the Septuagint and Vulgate, or it may not have been, as with the Masoretic Text or the Codex Vaticanus. It’s a little more complicated than most Catholic apologists tend to present it as.
I like Allen Parr! He was so very excited about the Shroud of Turin three weeks ago! So, the two years of prayer for him since this video came out may be beginning to show fruit! Let us continue to pray for both of these men!!
Mike does this frequently, leaning on his own interpretation as the authoritative standard all should be judged by and will make up his own definitions of terms to support that. In general he does good work but if you have to debate him, make sure you take him to task for his made up definitions.
@@whitevortex8323 Winger was referring to the early Creeds and congratulating the Catholic Church that got it right because it’s what HE would believe, without realizing or acknowledging that any truth he believes about Jesus is only because the Catholic Church ironed it all out in the first place in the first few centuries.
Mike has never taken the time to research the Catholic rebuttals of these warmed over assertions he makes. The pride he demonstrates in laughing about Catholic teaching which has been the result of trillions of prayers over 2000 years is quite frightening. I pray for him to take the time to sit down and talk with Trent or other Catholic apologists and truly understand what he is trying to speak on. He is interpreting the council documents and the Catechism on his own the way he interprets the Bible: to fit his already formed theology.
@@freemind9721 the Bible was built from sacred tradition. The two are perfectly aligned. Seek out the truth. Watch Trent’s videos. You will find it. I am not going to argue with this point. Have done it far too many times. Don’t have the energy. All I’ll say is: Christ gave us the Church, not a book. The book came out of the apostolic tradition. If you start with the book and never seek out more, you are starting from a point 300 years after Pentecost. God bless you
Finally!!!! Before I found out about the Catholic Church, I used to eat Mike Winger's stuff up. I was SOOOOO scared to listen to anyone Catholic because of the stuff I heard! Thank God I am leaving Protestantism and becoming Catholic AS SOON AS I CAN!!! Just found a Parish and waiting for RCIA!
@Reverse Osmosis from your display pic, people will know you are Catholic. Christians don't display idols, even in a form of "jesus"! Idolatry is a serious sin, be warned! And when people tells you "welcome home", don't be too happy, because the real home is in heaven with our Heavenly Father, not with Catholics.
@@veekee75 You speak like someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. Jesus established His Church around 2,000 years ago. Matthew 16 makes clear the Catholic Church is that Church along with so many other truths in Scripture and history. I do not know what your beliefs are, but rejecting 2,000 years of teaching and Tradition carefully passed down from the time of Christ is prideful and foolish. I think if you took the time to find out what idolatry actually is, along with so many other words you may also misunderstand, you could finally be set free by the Truth, as our Lord Jesus Christ promised. If you do not think about God, His Church, His Mother, people, society, morals, etc. like Jesus, then you are wrong. Take the time to study and find out what the Apostles actually believed and taught. Protestantism was made up a few hundred years ago by an apostate. Do you really want to try to understand Sacred Scripture from your own understanding or that of someone other than the 1st century Jews that spread those teachings of Christ? May God love you and keep you.
@@reverseosmosis1484 don't preached to me what the Catholic Church wants you to believe. Most are teachings of men, not from Jesus and the Apostles. Idolatry is what God hates, and where can you find the most idols now? In a Catholic Church. Cleaned up your church before trying to preach to others. Praying to Mary is an idol worshipping, this is not a tradition nor a teaching from our Lord Jesus. There are so many pagans traditions, rituals, rites and practices in Catholics, none of them are taught by Jesus or His apostles. There is no truth in them at all. You need to truly repent and see clearly what is the real Gospel.
Unfortunately most of Allen Parr's videos are boring arguments against catholicism with tired points that have been refuted a million times over the centuries. Glad Trent put this video together he can't be beaten in a debate
All Trent does is tell the truth, and the truth cannot be beaten. "Error, indeed is never set forth in its naked deformity, lest, being thus exposed, it should at once be detected. But it is craftily decked out in an attractive dress, so as, by its outward form, to make it appear to the inexperienced more true than truth itself." - St Irenaeus, whose feast day is today, June 28th
@@freemind9721 if you look into what the catholic church teaches and why it teaches those things you will find all catholic teaching does line up with the bible. Secondly, the bible was compiled by the catholic church. It is a catholic book
47:21 Mike Winger says “Prove your Church with my heresy” Which is the intellectual equivalent “Show me a Miracle and I, an Athiest, will believe in God.
This video reminds me how important it is not to tell other people what it is they really believe. It also reinforces how easy it is to interpret a piece of text...biblical or otherwise...
Outside of Hell, there is no pain like that in Purgatory. Outside of Heaven, there is no joy like that in Purgatory. Thanks be to God for Purgatory, which promises me genuine sanctity despite my brokenness.
@@sethelmore5759 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 Can't refer to Heaven because there are imperfections to be "burned up"; can't refer to Hell because "he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." Clearly then, this refers to a state after death where one is exposed to a purifying fire before receiving his reward in Heaven - Catholics call this state Purgatory. Now the burden is on you: Biblical evidence for Sola Scriptura, please.
@@sethelmore5759 "this rejects Jesus' identity" - How so? - "as it is clearly stated there is only heaven and hell" - where? - "you definitely misinterpreted that scripture" - in what way? Other passages point to the reality of Purgatory as well - Matthew 5:25-26, for example. The fact of the matter is that Protestant tradition states there is no Purgatory, so you just assume that is the "biblical" position. (Nevermind that the Bible is a Catholic book.) And when presented with evidence to the contrary, you merely dismiss it without offering any countervailing argument. And once again I ask for clear biblical evidence for Sola Scriptura.
I am a former Baptist who (by God's grace alone!) converted to Catholicism 4 years ago. I believed so much of what Winger said about Catholicism, but after really exploration of what Catholicism teaches, I found the Church that christ found and I am home. I am so amazed how easily so many anti catholic protestant claims are easily dismounted.
@@Stygard Well I don't care what all them group's say, all I care is what the bible says and teaches. I'm very familiar with the topic of Bibliology and Hermeneutics. I also am very familiar with Hebrew/ Jewish culture and how some of it ties in. The first church was the Jews or ancient Israel not Rome buddy. The word congregations means Church in Hebrew. The Israelites or the Jews were the first foundational church. There is no church without the Jews budd,, Jeremiah 31:31 & Romans 11 explains. Apostate Rome forgot to mention that the real church has no Popes, Cardinals, nuns nor condones idolitry. Nowhere in the New Testament or old can they be found or are they sanctioned offices. Sorry buddy but these are simple plain facts and your religion cannot deny this or explain it away.
I don't see how you can say it was helpful when it was completely inaccurate. In his absurd analogy, he completely ignores his promise to the gardener to pay him for labor and his [presumed] lack of a promise to his child. To merit is to earn otherwise the Catholic church's own writings make no sense.
@@TpGnnr No, because God laid out the plan and the terms. You need to read the parable of the unprofitable servant in the book of Luke. Even the three laborers that got the same pay vs hours worked is a good example of what we mean. Works are expected, they are demanded, and he gives his judgement according to them, but because they are mandatory you aren't earning your salvation because you're just doing what's expected of you. Precisely why Paul said "it's debt" in the book of Romans.
@@eddardgreybeardThe unprofitable servant was either TOTALLY FORGIVEN or HE PAID IT ALL in hell in torments. Call upon the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be Saved! ua-cam.com/video/Y-Z_fIPvpFA/v-deo.html
Really, I watched the video! Pastor Mike has no consistency at all. And his level of knowledge about the history of christianity is very very low. Watered down theology results on such lack of rigor!
Great discussion on merit. I am so tired of hearing that Catholics teach that we earn our salvation or earn grace. It's a shame that so many are deceived on this point, and I hope that Catholics are equipped to correct this grave error.
It seems to me that the way Protestants talk about Salvation is like a legal decree “Thou are now saved” rather than entering into a life long relationship with God/Jesus/Holy Spirit where we will ha e our ups and downs, get to know God better, reject him sometimes, etc and yes we could even reject him outright. The Mass, Sacraments and Sacramentals (acts of piety) are all things we should do to “practice” our Faith, stay in love with God and keep us string against sin. I am a recent revert and I see this happening in me!!! I am closer to Jesus than ever and my will (and impatience and stubbornness, etc, etc) is becoming less so that His will becomes primary. Not sure how they could refute the effects of the Catholic teaching in a devoted Catholic. And I think we need to be prepared not just with apologetics, but also the impact of God’s grace on our lives.
@Prasanth Thomas "You sure?" I'm sure he's leading people astray, I'm not SURE that he's doing it knowingly and on purpose, but he has read enough scripture and taught enough that he SHOULD know better. "If Catholicism isn't true, you have no reason to think the Bible is!(Well, the Bible was compiled by the Catholic Church-" Hah... no. There were canons established before the council of Rome, and the gospels and letters written by the Apostles were organically accepted as scripture, as well as Peter affirming Paul's writings as scripture in 2 Peter 3:16. However, even IF you're correct that the Council of Rome was what solidified the canon of scripture in the minds of Christians, it doesn't mean that everything the Catholic church claims or does until the end of time is biblical or right. That's just fallacious and wrong thinking. The Catholic church and their leaders have no assurance of infallibility, and when we see them teaching false doctrine like purgatory and twisting the gospel to say that we need to work for God's grace, they are to be marked as false teachers and avoided as Romans 16:17 says. *WHY* would we have verses like that and others, warning us about false teachers if we could not read and understand God's word rightly well enough to discern a false gospel from the true? Trust His word, not the pope.
@Prasanth Thomas "That is based on the assumption that everyone who reads the Bible should find your view obvious. Which is only your assumption" Scripture does have a specific, correct way to interpret it. We let the clear parts of scripture interpret the unclear. If you start with scripture and ONLY the presuppositions that scripture affords you because we are specifically told, things like, God is good, He is the creator, He is loving, we should all come to the same conclusions on passages. "That is just nonsense. There is no way you can accept the Council of Rome and deny the Council of Trent. If Trent is wrong and fallible, there is no way you should trust your NT canon-" You can say it's "just nonsense" but you're flat wrong. There is no reason to think that different people, hundreds of years later adding to scripture are people that are ordained by God to do what they're doing. Again, I think scripture establishes itself and that the Catholic church coming out and saying "This is what the canon is" helped solidify that for people, but it doesn't mean that whatever the church calls scripture is scripture or whatever it says is true, is true. We have scripture to help us avoid false teaching and as a foundation to keep us from being led astray. "Romans 16:17 asks us to watch out for "those who cause division"- who actually caused division here???" The person that truly causes division in the church is the one that teaches false things. We CANNOT be united under false teaching. If you're leading a church, and you start teaching false things, and I and my family leave, it is YOU that is dividing the church. "Look dude, The so called ' Faith alone' doctrine is nonsense- the only place in the Bible where the words 'faith alone' appears is James 2:24" There is much in scripture about salvation. If you understand it, then you should understand that merely trying to find the phrase "faith alone" doesn't really have much bearing on what scripture teaches overall, especially when the context of James 2 is that if you don't have outward evidence of your faith in Christ, you claiming you have faith isn't really justified, just like if you SAY you hope someone in need is clothed and fed, but you do nothing to help them be clothed and fed, you are likely not genuine in your claim to care about their wellbeing. And yes, we have to abide in Jesus. Remain in Him. It's like He described with the soils; we can let the world or our past or all kinds of things choke out God's word; destroy our faith. We can walk away from the truth of God, and trade it in for a lie, and God will give us over to our sinful desires, as Romans 1 says. Sin is deceptive, and can lead us away from the truth. Also, we are to be imagers of God, witnesses for those who are not yet trusting Him, salt and light to this world to point people to the savior. But nothing about doing good saves us, or is required for salvation. James' point is that the only he shows his faith is genuine is by what he does; by his good works. It's somewhat common sense. If you know someone who says they're a Christian and they have faith, but their life doesn't exhibit in any way that their being transformed by the renewing of their mind, and there is no real fruit of the Spirit in them, and constantly putting on the flesh instead of the Spirit, then it's likely they are not genuine in their claim of faith. "And Purgatory is a Scriptural Truth- all throughout the Bible is the prescence of an intermediate state" 1 Corinthians 3 is about the quality of our works, as believers, being tested when we die. This has nothing to do with salvation, or being "cleansed" or "purified", as classic teaching on purgatory teaches. The works of the believer are tested to see whether their will be rewards received by them, or if their works will be burnt up. Because we are saved by God's grace through our faith, and genuine faith will produce works, we will all have something either burning or earning a reward, but there is clearly nothing here about cleansing. "I would love to see what you think of Matt. 5:26?" I have encountered Catholics thinking this has something to do with purgatory before, and it's confusing to me because there is nothing at all here about salvation or eternity or anything of the sort. Looking at the context, Jesus is walking through a series of laws and showing how they apply more deeply than we thought they did, while correcting some traditions as well. This ultimately culminates in Him telling us to love our enemies and to try and imitate God; to be perfect as He is perfect. Verses 21-26 then are a small part of this, revealing that you can be guilty of murder without ever killing someone, because your attitude towards someone matters, especially with other disciples (believers). He encourages us to have the humility to recognize when we've given somewhen reason for a legitimate offense against us, and to go to them and be reconciled to them. Verses 25-26 are a word of wisdom to us and somewhat a repetition of what was just said, to take care when we've wronged someone and deal with it as quickly as possible, because the longer we wait, it's very likely the worse the consequences will be. That's the point of this passage.
@Prasanth Thomas “'Clear' and 'unclear' are subjective properties and what is 'clear' to you is 'unclear' to someone else.” That's just not the case. At least not always, by any stretch. And the more of the whole of scripture you understand, and certain presuppositions that can and should be held, like God is good, and He is love, the more you have at your disposal to help inform your interpretation. Not to mention Jesus promised to send us the Spirit of truth that will guide us into all truth, according to Jesus in John 16:13. “f you want to understand a verse- you have to look at its immediate context” I agree 100%. “Well, the same standard of authority(by the Catholic Church, by Bishops of Apostolic Succession, called by a Pope)” The Catholic church doesn't have and never had any greater authority than any other group of believers has. They are not apostles taught by God in person. THEY, did not DECIDE what books were scripture, they publicly recognized what was scripture. There's a big difference. “There is no way a collection of letters scattered all over Christendom would make a Canon 'by itself'.” Nothing about any of this is happening on it's own... this is GOD's word we're talking about. He can establish and protect His word however He likes. “A notable example is the letter to the Laodiceans, as witnessed in Colossians 4:16” Many people think this is simply referring to Ephesians or Galatians and that some of the letters were addressed to more of an area that a single gathering of believers. Either way, in saying all this it seems you are arguing for the Catholic church to be the ones to decide what is scripture, as if God isn't orchestrating circumstances and helping proliferate and spread the letters/books that He wants us to call scripture. “Having a bible alone isn't gonna keep everything right.” This is terrible thinking, and shows a lack of either understanding or a lack of concern for what scripture actually says. Romans 1:18-20 says that the “wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse .” We don't even need the bible to know the gospel, we ALL are without excuse because God has made it plain to ALL of us what may be known about Him. His word helps reveal more to us, but we are perfectly able to know and understand what may be known about God even without the Bible, let alone “apostolic tradition”. The traditions in 2 Thessalonians are obviously the teachings that Paul was teaching, not some kind of unwritten special rules. He was simply saying whether I've just said it, or I've written it to you, hold fast to those teachings. He was an apostle taught by Jesus personally, as he mentions in Galatians... not exactly the same as the leaders of the RCC. “Protestantism denies Apostolic Tradition ("by word of mouth") entirely.” Not if Paul or one of the apostles wants to tell us something, and yet even THEN, there are restrictions on what we should accept from even THEM, as Paul points out in Galatians, something that doesn't make sense with your insisting on blindly trusting a denomination because they claim to have authority. “It talks about works playing part in Justification.” The problem is, this “justification” is not the same as us being justified by God, this is obviously, due to the context, saying that someone's claim to have faith is justified, as in, legitimate or seen as genuine, by works, and not by claiming to have faith. In the same way, a person who says they care about people who need help needs to actually try and help them, and not merely say “go and be warmed and filled”. When you don't actually try and help warm them and fill them, you show that you don't actually care. When you claim to have faith but there are no works we see by which we can justify your faith claim, it is likely your faith is dead, or not real. Actual faith has a walk of obedience of some sort attached to it. This does not at all that God is justifying us by works, He IS however using our actions or works as evidence of our faith, as we see Him do with Abraham in Genesis 22:12 “'Do not lay a hand on the boy,' he said. 'Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.'” That's all James is saying. “What exactly does 'it is very likely the worse consequences will be' mean?” It means do not let the sun go down on your anger, or the anger of one you've wronged. Take care of something you're responsible for before you are taken to court and punished in an official way. Don't let hard feelings fester, use wisdom and deal with problems with haste so that they don't become a bigger problem. “the Judge is the Lord and officer is His Angels. I can't think of any other meaning-” Haha, you can't think of the possibility that what it says, is what it means? Why should we think this has some kind of other meaning? He's talking about being reconciled to someone that is physically taking you to court, in the physical world, with regular judge. Why would this mention a person that is taking you to court, and then switch the earthly court mid-sentence with God being the judge there? Obviously God is the ultimate judge, but that doesn't mean this verse is talking about God throwing you in prison until you pay the last penny of your debt... we can't PAY our debt, by the way, that's the whole reason Jesus had to come and be sin for us, so that we might become the righteousness of God. “if it speaks of some human courts, then there would be no moral message in the parable.” Oh, really? So we wouldn't have the message that your attitude toward your brother matter more than you thought, and that you might be guilty of murder, depending on how you're thinking about and treating your brethren? We wouldn't have the instruction to worship God with a clear conscience or the wisdom of dealing with issues where we've wronged someone before things get out of hand? We have all that from the plain reading of the text, and we don't have to insert some strange form of purgatory onto the text. “So, a temporary non-earthly punishment: That is literally what Purgatory is.” Ok, but this, is blasphemy. Jesus was crushed for our sins. He paid the price. The punishment that brought us peace was upon HIM. We are counted as righteous in Christ. This is a huge problem for purgatory, I hope you can see. ANY church teaching this needs to be rebuked, marked, and avoided. “First off, when the metaphor of fire is brought up in Scripture” ...And it's not brought up here. Note that there is no purifying mentioned. At all. You are bringing that understanding from elsewhere, instead of actually looking at what it says in the context. And what it actually SAYS, is that the fire will test the quality of each person's works; it either survives if it was built on the foundation which is Jesus, or it is burned up. There is NO purifying or cleansing. Even IF the fire represented purifying, the works are separated from the person. The person is not going through the fire. It is merely the works that are being tested and surviving or being burnt up, NOT the person, so this STILL cannot possibly have anything to do with your teaching or purgatory.
@Prasanth Thomas “Well, the Christians who followed the Decrees of the Council of Jerusalem(Acts 15) does certainly have more authority than the Judaisers” ...And the council at Jerusalem was made up of the very apostles I mentioned previously.... “If only the Apostles taught by God are having authority- both Paul and Matthias wouldn't have.” I don't know about Matthias; he's not said to have written any scripture, and there are different kinds of apostles, as Apostle means “sent ones”. However, Paul WAS taught by Jesus through revelation. Galatians 1:12 “I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.” He didn't even confirm with any disciples for 3 years. “because we have legitimate Apostolic Succession- “ Ya don't. I don't believe your “unbroken chain”. And the thing is, even if I did, IT DOESN'T EXCUSE TEACHING A FALSE GOSPEL. “6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel- 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!” (Galatians 1:6-8). The Catholic Church has twisted scripture to allow for a made up thing called purgatory that says we can actually go there and suffer for sins, AND pay the penalty (!!!) when that was THE WHOLE POINT of Jesus coming, dying, and raising. Not to mention the confused adding of works as a way to MERIT God's grace. There's no way around it; it IS a different gospel. “if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry” This sounds like any other replacement of leaders within any church, I don't understand why you think it's special? And again, the RCC teaches a different gospel. It doesn't matter if they were the original Apostles themselves or angels from heaven, they are to be avoided. “then Catholicism(along with the rest of Christianity) is false. Because then Scripture won't be true.” Huh? If God created scripture and established and spread it organically, then Christianity is false? What? “Rom. 1:18-20 speaks about the 'godless', ie those that lead careless lives, not someone of any other religion.” You conveniently avoid the point. Even THEY have a clear understanding of “what may be known about God”. Verse 20 says that they know and have seen God's invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature. The rest of scripture also makes it clear that we can learn SO MUCH about God just by what He has made, because, we don't need the Roman Catholic Church in any sense. “So, a person living in a remote Island in Papua New Guinea would know that a man named Jesus of Nasereth is the Son of God and He rose from the dead without even the Bible?” Knowledge about Jesus and His resurrection, is NOT the gospel. Jesus fulfilled the law, is the fullness of the gospel, and He came as a human, like us in every way, so that he could be a fitting high priest for us, but believing the gospel of God doesn't require knowing Jesus even exists. Revelation 14:6-7 “6 Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the *eternal gospel* to proclaim to those who live on the earth-to every nation, tribe, language and people. 7 He said in a loud voice, “ *Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water* .” The Gospel is eternal. The simple truth of the gospel is trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ That's the gospel. Trust God. Fear the Lord. Honor Him and give Him thanks. No one in the “hall of faith” in Hebrews had specific knowledge of Jesus, yet their faith is lauded in scripture. Abraham was credited as righteous when he believed God, not when did works, and not when he understood who Jesus was... “This is just fallacious thinking!” No, you just don't understand the gospel. “The text clearly tells them to 'hold fast' to the teachings handed down by Word of Mouth besides what is handed out 'by letter'” No, it doesn't say “besides”, it says by word of mouth or by letter. Assuming the opposite of what I do opens you up to any manner of false doctrine because anything could be 'handed down' to you from anyone that can convince you that they are part of your “chain”. “there is no reason for him to say 'by letter or by word of mouth'- as something besides the Scripture.” I'm sure you understand that not everyone had letters sent to them, or copies of letters to hand around; sometimes all they had was what they heard from him in person. “Now, the verse is prescriptive- it tells us(whether you live in Thessalonica or America) to hold fast to both” Sure, I'll listen to what I hear Paul say by letter or by word of mouth, unless he's teaching a false gospel and against scripture. “And Paul never talks of any 'denomination'- he believes in only 1 Church” So do I. There should be no denominations. I don't claim to be a part of any of them.
At least they recognized Catholicism is different than all the other groups they talked about in the original video, but dang. I couldn’t even believe Catholicism was in the same video with the rest.
I’m becoming Catholic from an anti Catholic Pentecostal background and for him to even acknowledge that theologically, we share the same beliefs is gracious compared to what was indoctrinated in me. Lord have mercy and give us grace to speak to those who are lost and blind 😞
@@GratiaPrima_ I told my mother today I was converting and she says I’m confused and pray that my eyes will be opened and that I don’t blaspheme God. That this is not from God and more. 💔 I didn’t argue because I prayed before and I knew at this point right now she won’t be ready to hear but I pray that God will soften her heart.
@@mimi_j -You’ll be in my prayers 🙏🏻 God will guide you through this journey towards Catholicism ✝️ ❤️ I recommend reading stories about the Saints who were converts for inspiration 💜✝️
Yeah right buddy, Catholicism is system is pagan and I can prove it with ancient Roman History buddy.. Rome mixed it with christinaty. Anyone with a brain who has ever studied and got a high school diploma can read the New Testament and compare it to the Catholic structure and So call Roman Cannon and obviously see it's not New Testament real Christianity. Rome is an apostate church and after researching the matter it's clear. Gentile original Roman church was started by Apostle Barnabas or Apostle Paul not Apostle Peter and was not started the original church. Jerusalem is the original church and will be the last church.
Cult comes from the Latin word “Cultus” which means “to worship”, all religions are cults, even protestantism What’s wrong about calling religions like Catholicism a cult is that people associate it with an unreasonable negative connotation and usually picture guys underground in robes doing human sacrifice
Fun fact, in french, all protestant call their sunday worship " cult". They will say things like : I am going to the cult" while us we will say : " I am going to Mass"
I can't stand Mike Winger's smugness when talking about Catholicism. And it's not because he's ignorant, because he has been presented with the arguments, but he chooses to ignore them to keep misleading people. There's not a single shred of humility and compassion in his attitude when he just claims other people are wrong because they think differently than him.
Take it as a compliment. Mike doesn’t know it but he’s giving a great compliment to God by having such a strong reaction towards His true Church. I would be worried if he was more lukewarm about Catholicism.
"Catholics and Catholicism are not the same"??? he doesn't want to misinterpret Catholic teaching btw but then takes what the majority of bad Catholics believe as something that represent us
@@tony1685 images or icons are not necessarily idols. An idol is an image that's worshipped as a god. We don't believe Mary or the Saints are gods and we don't worship them. We as Christians don't have to keep the Sabbath as day if rest since the "Lord of the Sabbath" has resurrected on a Sunday. That's why Sunday is now the Holy day. And baptism doesn't necessarily mean "full immersion". And there's some Catholics that can do it in a full immersion, but some that because of whatever reason can't do that. I recommend watching videos of these channel, they're great, so you can learn more about this.
@@tony1685 Alright, same to you. Read the Bible. If God wanted specifically to not make any kind of image regardless if it's an idol or not, then why did He ordered Moses to make images? (Exodus 25:18 or Numbers 21:8) Christ only said "Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." nothing about full submersion, but like I said, some that can do it in full submersion they do it. Can be done either way. And the Apostles did reunite to worship on Sunday, the first day of the week. See Acts 20:7 or John 20:19-20. The reason I recommend watching this channel's videos is because this guy knows a whole lot about the Bible and history about it that are very interesting and good to know about.
I really wish people would stop saying “Roman” Catholicism. I even see Catholic church building signs with that term. An anti-Catholic term created by Protestants that focuses on ROME, and therefore “big bad evil Pope”, completely ignoring that “Catholic” means UNIVERSAL.
Relax.^^ "Roman" Catholicism distinguishes it from other Catholic groups still in union with the Universal church, including Ukrainian Catholics, Assyrian and Syrian Catholics, etc. The differences between the various branches are primarily in ritual and liturgical practice, not in belief or doctrine.
I really wish Trent/Mike would set up a dialogue episode. It’s getting tiring to see Mike continue to upload content when he’s been corrected several times. I applaud Trent for the work, but I would just love to see Mike react to corrections in real time and hopefully adjust his views
Trent actually made a community post where he said he would be open to a conversational style debate and Mike shot him down, so unfortunately I dont think it will ever happen.
People keep asking for this debate in the comments under Mikes videos aswell, but unfortunately Mike has responded several times already that he does not want to debate Trent, so it probably wont happen
Here is something to keep in mind, from a former die-hard atheist to a christian. Only God can forgive sins. Indulgences are a scheme and are not biblical in ANY regard. Praying to humans, is human worship, which is against God. The basis the catholic church uses to claim their authority is based on willful disregard for the scripture. If you really want to grow in your faith, learn Koine Greek and read the original scripture without the corruption of greed and bias of man's hands.
I watched a podcast of pastor Mike once where he was taking questions from followers and a question came up that someone's family member was pulling away from the faith and what advice pastor Mike had for this person. His answer was literally that the person had to work really hard to stay close to Jesus. When I pointed out in live chat that pastor Mike advocates work to keep the faith, my comment was deleted, lol.
Well you have your 'faith without works is dead' (which as a non-christian, simply makes logical sense to me as a perspective). And then you have his. Which is strange. Protestant Christians almost seem (or perhaps they are) to be implying that you are saved no matter what you do. Almost as if you might as well not bother living your life in good faith. Now that is likely not what they mean. But you can imagine how it looks to outsiders? If there was no way of gaining favor under heaven with how you conduct yourself (works) then there would be very little point bothering with faith at all. Which is likely why they take issue with any traditional activity based upon shared experiences or history. I can understand they mean it to be 'nothing can impress God'. Due to an interpretation they have. I don't share this, as a point of logic. Because if I weigh up the human experience (real life) as a non-christian; it appears to me that your character is defined by your interaction with the world over time. The very meaning of living life - is character development and the showcase of choice (wrong or right). I believe that is a credible metric of judgement. Faith is demonstrated and earned. To make it 'heh you are just saved'. Seems an insult to the quality and rarity of those living a righteous life and those barely bothering.
@@ErraticFaith I understand your comment is a year old and you might not see this. I just started Mike Winger's rebuttal to this rebuttal and wanted to read the comments on this video before I finished up Winger's rebuttal. However, I came across your comment and wanted to provide some insight. There are generally two schools of thought when it comes to works and faith in Protestant/Evangelical: "Once saved always saved" which can lead to the hyper-grace doctrine and you can lose your salvation if you renounce your beliefs or backslide. I just really discovered Mike Winger's teachings about 2 weeks ago, so I am not sure what camp he falls into, but I fall into the later of yes you can lose your salvation. However, that is just about salvation. Your comment was about works and I wanted to give you my perspective. I don't know if you graduated from a public high school or if you were homeschooled . If the later, then my example might not make sense to you so I apologize if that is the case. Regarding your comments about works, favor under heaven, and logic, take as an example of two high school soon to be graduates. Let's call them Jane and Jill if you will. Jane is a 4.0 GPA student in the top 1% and will be the only valedictorian. She was in duel enrollment for her senior year, was captain of the cheerleading team, the President of the beta club, has a part time volunteering gig with the nursing home, is an upcoming junior member for the city's young adult leadership council. She spends her free time at a soup kitchen and helping disadvantaged adults learn to read. She has been accepted into 5 ivy league schools and is debating between Harvard and Yale and she has been given a full ride scholarships in addition to her other scholarships she received from being so involved in the community. She is debating between being an aid worker or a public defender for disadvantaged communities. Jill however is barely present to even attend school. She is a continuous D student with zero future prospects. Her GPA is barely 1.0, spends her free time smoking pot and partying with her friends. She has been to juvi a few times and thinks school is a waste of time and that community anything is a waste of effort. Both of these fictional people will receive a high school diploma. Both of these fictional people will get to leave high school behind them regardless of their effort put into it. However, one will have made the most of it and one will just skate by barely making it even though they will both get a diploma. Salvation by faith or belief is much like this scenario. The end destination of high school (salvation by faith) will be the same (heaven [diploma])) regardless of effort (works [being a good student in school and a community member]). However, that doesn't mean the reward will be the same. Jane will be rewarded much for her efforts, but Jill will receive nothing. Just like those who work for the Kingdom of God and do good works (Is a Christian, studies the scriptures, loves people and loves to help others, is involved in their church, wants to lead others to Christ, ect), they will be greatly rewarded in heaven. However, those who just skate by while doing nothing and giving the barest of effort (Is a Christian, but doesn't go to church, doesn't get involved in the community, doesn't read the Bible, maybe says a prayer or two in trouble, tends to be rude to people), will make it to heaven, but they will not be rewarded for anything. The later in this scenario turns people off from Christ, the former wins people to Christ much like you picked up on. However, there is no earning heaven with good works. If Jane dropped out of school to be a good steward to the community and started a UA-cam educational channel, she doesn't get to receive a high school diploma. She can't bi-pass the requirement just because she thinks she knows better. Just like in salvation. There is no amount of good deeds that can get you into heaven. There has to be a belief in Jesus' finished work on the cross for the forgiveness of sins. This belief in Jesus SHOULD invoke a change in the heart of a human to do good works and a desire to be a disciple of Christ. Good works should be the bi-product of salvation because we have received a new heart and mind to serve Christ and others. Hence the faith without works is dead. If you have faith, it should inspire works. If you have faith without works, what are you even doing? Faith is a noun though, not a verb, but the relationship between a person's state of faith and their actions are symbiotic. Now, regarding losing one's salvation or backsliding, I do not see that as a result of not doing enough good deeds. I see it as a renouncing of beliefs and/or the falling back into a willful sinful lifestyle and basically walking away from Christ. Think of is as divorcing yourself from Christ (not the same as leaving church). This can also bleed over from the hyper-grace doctrine which is "once saved always saved" belief on steroids as it is the belief that you can do whatever you want, believe whatever you want, and you will still be saved (if you got saved at 12 lets say) regardless of your actual status of belief or lifestyle. I don't agree with that and I reject that. I will eventually get around to watching this video, but I hope that I gave you something to think on. Have a good day!
Hey Abhishek Nice to see an indian here I am thinking of starting catholic apologetics , Where discussions and q and a can be made. Any social media platform.
@@veekee75 It's funny that Trent, or anyone on his side in the comments, NEVER accuses the people he disagrees with of Satanism. Nor does he try to tear down the people he disagrees with; he simply disagrees with them and explains his point. You guys on the other hand offer no understanding or love for your fellow Christians.
@@lordofthered1257 It's not about disagreement. These are salvation issues. Catholics believe man can do the only thing that God can do, forgive sins. Worshiping "saints" is human worship. Safe to say, if a religion wants to bear the mantle of "christian" then proceeds to push false doctrine and teach it as God's Word in hopes of wrapping up more people from God to their heresy, seems pretty satanic. Folks just call it what it is.
@@GratiaPrima_ Hi there, myself arun I will make it as short as possible I am a young catholic apologetic, you can call be beginner, I am searching for good frnds with whom I can engage discussions , Q&As sharing thoughts on catholic apologetics. If interested we can go ahead with any social media platform, or can you guide if you know any Thank you
Mike Winger said that the Blessed Virgin Mary ascended into heaven, Mary was assumed into heaven by the Divine power of her son Jesus Christ. Ascended into heaven it is only for Jesus Christ by his own power. Ascended to heaven means by his own power, Assumption means from the power of other person.
Glad I’m not the only one who caught that. Ascension is reserved for Jesus entering Heaven under his own power while Assumed is Mary being brought to Heaven by Jesus and God’s.
Thank youuuu I was so agitated with this video. 😩😩 I stopped because these are same arguments that have been refuted successfully but people choose to ignore facts.
Wow! I've been subscribed to Winger for a while now and he's always seemed intelligent and fair. After seeing his rebuttal to this video I found him to be dishonest and intentionally deceiving toward Catholics. He heavily chopped up your responses to make you look bad and then he summarized what you said incorrectly to make himself look correct. I just sub'd to you. I'm Lutheran by the way and I'm leaning toward the Catholic Church and beginning RCIA. Thank you for being honest and fair.
AKim, Cross the Tiber. The Catholic Church with all it faults and foibles is still the Church founded by Christ. Here is why... History, any unbiased reading of history will demonstrate that the Catholic Church was that Church which existed since the time of the apostles. Almost everything the Catholic Church teaches is authentic and can be support from the Torah Shebaal Peh. Give me any belief you think is crazy about Catholcis and I can provide evidence of its authenticity from Judaism. All the "crazy" Catholic beliefs originate in Judaism and could only have entered into Catholicism if at one time Catholicism was a Jewish Faith. And even this can be proven if you read the Bible and the Halakic Law together. In fact, outside Catholicism there cannot be any possibility of salvation. This is the realization I have come to, not from reading Catholics sources, but Jewish sources. IF Christ is the Messiah, there can only be one Church which is correct and salvation is dependant on you belonging to this family of G-d.
@@TheCounselofTrent Fantastic! Shoot me an email so we can stay in contact and, God-willing, set something up for the future. email: thejewishcatholicofficial@gmail.com
I don't have time to watch the video right now, but I have a question for any Catholics pertaining to Mary's virginity. Jesus had siblings, so does that mean they were also born of a virgin? I suppose they could have been conceived normally, but Mary's hymen somehow remained intact? But what would be the point of having just physical virginity, she would still not be pure. I'm just confused about it. Open to any answers
Haha I've gotten into this with Catholics and it's actually kind of silly - "we don't know, they could have used that same word to talk about close relatives" they have this way of taking a word we all know what it means and saying "hey, we can't be sure that's what it means when we have made this absurd claim and irrelevant doctrine surrounding it!"
The Bible was totally fallible until 1828 when the British bible society finally removed 7 books, thus making the KJV bible in use today infallible. They really should have taken out James too. Maybe Apologia studios can finish the job.
Sometimes I really can't bear the disrespect and arrogance that these _protestants_ have. Where do they get off calling the Church Jesus himself founded a cult? And this is specially crazy getting to know the little that can be generally said about protestant ecclesiology, so founding a bible club in the back of your garage that you later rename as a church because you disagreed with the local pastor back in the 90's is fine, but submission to the apostolic faith is illegitimate??
And this arrogance and disrespect is going live on social media, false propagation and accusations. Sometimes it feels Catholicism is wrong. Need more and more apologetics, need to defend Church.
@@briandiehl9257 You really don't see a problem in Winger and Parr listing Catholicism in the same video as Arians like JWs and Mormons bruhh.... And clearly labelling the video cult or Christian
@@takmaps I do see the problem. But he didn't even name the video anything related to a cult. The video is called 6 groups related to biblical christianity or something like that
There is a very 'grey' border with their presentation of the word 'cult'. To preface I understand the 'reality' of that word to be derogatory. Think, 'cultists in robes performing evil deeds'. In that light I prefer Trent's empathic and sensitive approach to the phrase. As a non-christian I tend to lean toward the idea that regardless of what people pen/say there is an ulterior motive behind the direction. You can believe that whoever you are of course. However I interpret the Protestant angle to be how they deal with other faiths as well. 'Veiled insult'. Basically the equivalent of those who say 'I'm not being a funny here ...BUT'. The intention is obvious - even when the words are lined with sugar.
46:49 “debating scripture is secondary…” at least he’s a little self-aware. But it’s not because he can’t interpret the Bible, it’s because we can see all the fractured Protestant churches interpreting scripture for themselves and then breaking into opposing camps.
Another example of Meritorious vs Earning. As a Marine I may receive an early MERITORIOUS promotion as a reward for exceptional leadership. But I EARN my promotion when I meat all the requirements set by the standards for promotion and the Marine Corps is obligated to promote me.
Go check out Mike's rebuttal on Trent's rebuttal, and you will see how shallow Trent's rebuttal was. Misrepresenting Mike aside, Trent just took verses out of context so often without reading the chapter before and after or disregard totally the essence of Paul's teachings. That's shallow. And I admit, it's never easy to differentiate the truth from the fake if you are proud and ignorant at the same time.
Satanic deception is what you are living my friend your life as you know it is guided by the Father of all lies Satan himself. He is on your shoulders with his hands covering your eyes and ears so you can't see or hear the truth in Catholicism. I'm sure he told you to interpret the Bible on your own and that you would understand it or you were brainwashed by so many of his demonic minions in protestant cults or sects who stand behind a podium and twist the words of the Bible and lie to your face taking advantage of your ignorance (they are con artist and you believe them) The Catholic Canon was set at the Council of Rome in (382) the same Council commissioned Saint Jerome to compile and translate those Canonical Texts into the Latin Vulgate Bible. The Bible was put together by the Catholic Church and was inspired by the Holy Spirit for instruction of Catholic Priests only not for anyone else outside of the Catholic Church Anything you quote from the Bible has no meaning because you were not taught to interpret the Bible by a Catholic Priest who was taught by another Catholic Priest all the way back to 382 You can't interpret something you didn't make only the ones that put it together and were instructed on how to interpret it correctly have the authority to do so. You obviously don't know or understand the Bible you need a Catholic Priest to show you the way
@@davidgutierrez294 Sorry, praying to the saints and Mary to intercedes for you are teachings from satan, because satan doesn't want believers to go to God directly. This teaching build a wall between believers and God. Whatever you pray to the saints for intercession, God will not hear it. Not because He did not hear it, but because He will reject that prayer which is to the dead(asleep), to the fallen and not to Him. Saints who are dead(asleep) are still without the resurrected body, they can't do anything but to wait for the judgement day. Teachings of praying to the saints by the RC churches are as good as heretic doctrine. That my friend is true deception.
@@davidgutierrez294 When Jesus ascended to heaven, He told us that the Holy Spirit will be our guide from then on. Did Jesus tell us to rely on a roman catholic priest? No! All true believers should be allow to read and interpret the Bible freely with guidance from the Holy Spirit and Church teachers, but that doesn't mean we(church teachers included) are allow to misinterpret the Bible freely. That's the different.
@@davidgutierrez294 "Anything you quote from the Bible has no meaning because you were not taught to interpret the Bible by a Catholic Priest...bla...bla..." Wow! How oppressive does that sounds? Very! I can't even be sure that your Catholic Priest read his Bible regularly, he might not even have read through the whole Bible once, since Catholic priest is so preoccupied in praying to the saints, doing rituals etc etc etc etc. Oh yah, almost forgot, Romans Catholic Churches persecuted people for reading the Bible in the past. No wonder you are so scare to read yours now. Are they still killing people for reading God's words? I hope not.
@@argelbargel7680 This is unironically true, because of sola scriptura when they read "anathema" they can only process it in the context of the old testament so to them it means the same as "to put to the ban".
I first came to faith at 40 yrs. old. As a new believer in God, becoming a Christian was another leap in faith. New to Protestantism, I read and re-read the NT Gospels and letters. Years into my faith journey, I was shocked when I heard that a major basis for the Reformation was Sola Scriptura and Faith Alone. Shocked...because I knew scripture did not support this. I am equally shocked in Winger's explanations. From my own list of scriptures related to the Faith/Works debate, I offer only two here: Matt 7:21 and Luke 6:46. There is no space in a ComBox to debate this. Thanks, Trent, for your explanations. One preacher after another, it eventually became clear that there were MANY popes in the Protestant world. One had to learn their “catechism” over many months of each man’s preaching. Winger’s strong convictions are only one set of tenets of faith among thousands in the Protestant world. He assumes the position of “pope” de facto - using his personal authority to define Christian doctrine and the proper interpretation of Scripture. To his credit, he puts much time into a public declaration of his catechism on UA-cam. Again…a big subject.
Amazing. And this is why Christ left a church. He KNEW this would eventually happen. People affirming their own truths with personal interpretation of scripture
As someone who read Theology at college and wrote a dissertation on Correlation Theology and who is also a Catholic Convert, I find Mike both disrespectful and offensive. How dare he judge others and how dare he judge the Church, from his 250 years of American Protestantism... his 'church' has been around for 5 minutes and he has the gall to claim that anyone who doesn't agree with him is not Christian??? I would NEVER say that of another denomination.
Me too! I watched Winger’s anti-catholic doctrine videos thinking he was knowledgeable but dun dun dun…In the comments sections ppl started naming catholic apologists like Trent, and others and curiosity got the best of me. I searched Trent’s name and I went down the conversion rabbit hole. 8 months of RCIA later and here I am… a proper catholic. To God be the Glory!!!!
I too was heading in that direction until a Pentecostal pastor started talking bad about the Catholic church - I prayed about it and started searching for answers on the net and boom bang I stumbled on Scott Hahn and others today i eat sleep and drink Catholic apologetics. I’ve learned so much.
I’m doing a deep dive into this whole rebuttals series between you (Trent) and Mike Winger. As I pause and slowly digest what both are saying it’s like another layer of understanding is being revealed to me on what Catholicism teaches. This is wonderful and insightful. I’m thankful God has allowed this back and fourth rather than a quick “here’s the answer”. Btw when you spoke about merit vs earning, it helped me understand how I might have been unintentionally misleading people and that’s why my discussions with my protestant friends have been so complicated. I say all of this to thank you and encourage you to keep making these videos! They’re very helpful.
Mike Winger is not a worthy adversary for you, Trent. He argues like a schoolyard bully, and his arguments are feeble at best. I am of the impression that his whole schtick is a vast array of misunderstanding . He doesn’t really know anything about Catholicism.
Did I understand Mike Winger to say that he doesn't think baptism is not needed for salvation? Jesus said that he who believes and is baptized SHALL BE SAVED!
When considering what is needed for salvation, the thief on the cross next to Jesus is good to keep in mind. All he had was faith. No baptism with water. No good works. But the Lord himself said he would be with Jesus in paradise.
This is the first video I watched from Trent's UA-cam Channel! I will watch more of his videos now, definitely a knowledgeable channel about defending the Catholic Faith.
Trent never defended anything. He misrepresented Mike in so many areas. Just check out Mike's rebuttal on Trent's rebuttal on Mike. Sounds confusing? It is! Mike is so detailed in all his explanation, while Trent just rebut without any explanation and many a times Trent just take a verse out of context. Mike is definitely a lot more biblical in Christianity beliefs.
God Bless you, Trent Horn. I thank God that the Lord brought me into His Church, despite being the only Catholic in my entire family and friend group. Men like Agustine, Aquinas, Trent Horn, Jimmy Akin, Brent Pitre, Scott Hahn, Peter Kreeft, all helped me answer many questions after much prayer and debate. Turris Fortis Mihi Deus!
I will say I am happy to see Mr.Winger at least understanding the importance of ecumenical councils and other aspects like not saying we worship the Blessed Virgin Mary or the Pope. And unfortunately his portrayal of the average Catholic vs Catholicism proper is fairly accurate, most Catholics have no clue or ignorantly reject what the Church actually teaches. All that in mind, I am very grateful for your work here Mr.Trent and others who have the constancy to be able to refute the misunderstandings and defending the Truth of Holy Mother Church. It is very edifying to have these matters discussed in detail and it really is a great way to right the course in what internally I believe and how I am operating in my walk with the Lord and has revealed some of the more deeply buried flaws that developed over time. What I am saying Mr.Horn is keep fighting the good fight, you may be doing even more good than you could know. God bless you, my brother in Christ. Through the same Blessed Lord and Savior of All, Lord Jesus Christ, Who is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Amen.
I came here in the middle of the video being discussed. Looked at the comment section and found some upset people so I looked at this video. A ton of the refutation(btw he literally said it wasn't a cult) is actually agreeing with the statements he's making, only providing context for why they believe these things. All that being said, I think this video was done very well. I definitely don't agree with some of those beliefs, but do feel better about the salvation for Catholics as a whole. Hopefully nothing I said was offensive to any of you. God bless you all and have a great day!!!
I LOVE Trent's response @40:10 "I have no idea how Mike is getting this from Galatians!" 🤣 ..."Don't 'abandon the Gospel' DOES NOT EQUAL Sola Scriptura." 👍🏼
To me Catholicism appeals to the mind by giving truth. Protestantism appeals to the heart by giving you what you want. You see this in Winger saying how sad Purgatory is. How could you think Purgatory is sad unless you know you do evil and are running away from God to receive what you deserve.
It is amazing how the group that holds up and praises the great “Protestant Work Ethic” for making the modern world...seem so determined to ensure their faith requires as little effort as possible.
Well Done Trent. Thank you for all your work in Catholic Apologetics and Thank you for continually doing these rebuttals with humility. We’re not out to win arguments (as satisfying as the feeling is) - we’re about winning souls.
I always wished Protestants like Mike would read the whole Bible in its context rather than just taking little snip-bits that prove their points. I pray for his conversion to the truth, especially because he seems to have such a good zeal for the Lord
@@billykid6824 Do you mind if I ask you an honest question Billy. Is it biblical to have the bible as your only source of God's authority & revelation? I love reading the bible! Fr. Mike's bible in a year has been great but from reading the bible I believe to limit his revelation to just a written form is limiting God's voice. He speaks through the Bible, but not just that; through the early fathers in genesis, the prophets, and the apostles whom Jesus Christ gave authority to teach and these apostles passed on their authority to their successors, our bishops and priests. It was likely that these people didn't have a written word at all times and yet God revealed himself to them and granted them power and wisdom to speak on his behalf. If you look throughout the history of the Catholic Church and all the works and miracles she's preformed you can't deny Jesus works through His church, despite how broken and imperfect its members may be. Seriously man, look up some of the strange miracles that have happened in the history of the Catholic Church and you may awe and wonder how Jesus works through the Church that he established!
Preferrably they do not have to find the truth then but find it before they stand before the Just Judge. We must pray for them and be ready with a defense of the truth.
What I find interesting about protestant apologists is that they keep saying that the Catholic church "added" this or "added" that. They forget that the Catholic church didn't "add" anything. The reformers removed this or that. The argument against the Papacy drives me up a wall. It makes no sense why God would let authority given to Peter and the rest of the Apostles to end with their death and then let his church have no replacement.
8:06 - “Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one man can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion.” (CCC 2010) 14:10 and 14:48 - Romans 11:6 17:16 22:41 - The Eucharist 26:20 - Purgatory 26:45 and 27:02 - Atonement theory 27:50 - “If it were true Christ paid for all of our sins and we never had to do anything afterwards, then why do we ask God to forgive us of our sins?” 28:00 and 28:14 -
I am from the Philippines and most of us are Catholics and I was a Catholic. People do the rosary, and go to church every Sunday but their is no fruit of the Spirit. 90% do not read the Bible! How do we even know Jesus without reading the Bible?😥 I am glad I learned the Bible and most Catholic is not living with the Bible. Most do not even understand what is to follow Jesus.
I’m sorry but you have been misled. You are responsible for studying God’s word. When you learn the truth, you will learn that Peter is not the Rock. Christ is the Rock 1 Corinthians 3:11 • Adding doctrines is forbidden Deuteronomy 4:2 • There aren’t any officiating new covenant priests. We have a new ministry in the new covenant. Ephesians 4:11 • God does not show favoritism Romans 2:11 -- there is no evidence in the scriptures that the church was built on a human. ****Equality amongst the apostles**** “Ye are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.” (****Ephesians 2:20****) “And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.” (****Revelation 21:14****). • Peter was no different than the others. • Mary nor the saints can hear prayers. There’s only one mediator in heaven between God & Man. 1 Timothy 2:5 ► For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, There is so much more wrong with that church. I can’t list it all but they are no longer a church that belongs to God. That’s why they are blessing same sex couples. • In order to receive salvation, we must all repent and accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior. We need no Eucharist, no veneration of Mary, no long list of good works, no baptism regeneration, no sacrament of reconciliation, no rosary, no pope, no papacy, no belief in Peter as the Rock 1 Corinthians 3:11, no man-made doctrine, no priests, no infallible magisterium, no Vatican, no communion of saints, no catechisms, no Marian dogmas, no transubstantiation, but only by faith through grace are we saved. ****Ephesians 2:8**** "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast".
@@properapplications actually I did some searching, where I found he did indeed got call from Trent , but he refused. Couldn't take his false information propagation no longer
Objectively speaking, the protestant does not want to relinquish their position on justification. Specifically that it is a one time event. That everything that is a growing in righteousness from a Catholic perspective isn't a growing in righteousness; rather, it is sanctification. When I compare their position regarding righteousness from a divine to human perspective i.e. a one time event against a human to human, they are not the same. My wife and my children grow in righteousness. When I meet a stranger on the street, I don't "declare" once and for all the righteousness of the person; but as I get to experience the person he/she may grow or recede in righteousness from my perspective. I frequently hear how legalistic the Catholic faith is from my protestant friends. Then I read the protestant doctrine on justification and laugh. It reads like a lawyer wrote it. Then again, Calvin was trained in law so that might explain it.
@Empyreal Certainly. We observe it in our courtrooms today. I just do not subscribe to this application, even before turning towards Catholicism. The other aspect of forensic justification is the accountant/CPA book keeping...the crediting of Christ's righteousness to my account. I know many Protestant see beauty in their Lutheran/Reformed beliefs/faith. I don't.
@Empyreal Fair enough. I definitely was not using legalistic in the way you describe it. May I ask what faith you profess? Baptist, Reformed, Lutheran...or something else?
@Empyreal Thanks for sharing and thanks for clarifying what you meant by legalistic. My daughter attends a non-demonational Christian school and I frequently hear "legalistic" being used to describe Catholicism--a works based religion. So if I understand you correctly then when you say legalistic it's more akin to contractual. If I "do" work then I am "owed" compensation. This to me seems to be the protestant understanding of works. Anyway, I was baptized as infant and confirmed at age 13 Catholic. My parents were not devout and never went to church except for funerals and weddings. I married Methodist. Spent some years going to Presbyterian churches and finally landed in a non-demonational Baptist/Calvin leaning church for 5 years before I began to actually be engaged on the theology being presented. Ironically I ended up reading my way back to Catholicism. Along the way I came across a program on EWTN called "The Journey Home". The host is Marcus Grodi (a former Congregationlist pastor who converted to Catholicism). The programs are Protestant conversion stories to Catholicism. I've learned so much from hearing former protestant pastors of almost every conceivable denomination discuss their protestant beliefs as part of their story. From my readings, I do admire Luther's courage to risk his life for his beliefs. Eric Metaxis wrote a great book on Luther which I found helpful. Fundamentally though, I just think the Sola doctrines are flawed. I also came to realize that an infallible human authority to interpret Scripture must exist on Earth. If it's not the Pope and no other protestant organization will claim it then the default ends up being me. I do have a strong ego but I am not ignorant enough nor arrogant enough to believe I can interpret Scripture infallibly. Well, good luck on your journey.
@Empyreal Your comment about no earthly infallible interpreter was articulated well. My wife holds to that position but doesn't articulate well. Having said this, the question she nor my protestant friends ever answer is this: was there ever an infallible human authority on Earth? If so who was it and why doesn't one exist today. The other question that never gets answered is: how do protestants reconcile differences in interpretation? There can be only one truth. Regarding baptism--either it saves (whatever that means) or it doesn't. The plain reading of Scripture indicates that it does; yet, there are some that disagree. I'm not wanting to debate. I just want to know how y"all who adhere to Sola Scriptura reconcile these differences especially without claiming infallibility.
@Empyreal Thank you for answering and not merely dismissing the question. I've pondered the implications of there not being a human authority. One could never know for certain the truth. I struggle to understand the position you take. At the end of the day if you cannot point to a human authority then the default authority is yourself. Do you not see this? You become your own arbiter of truth. Because my wife hasn't left the nondenominational church, I continue in a weekly small group Bible study with her. Nothing is more dissatisfiying than reading verses of Scripture and having several interpretations. When Peter said "Baptism now saves you", I believe he knew the Truth of what that meant. His understanding was infallible. The question for me then becomes, "what was that understanding?" Another protestant question I've struggled to ascertain is, "at what point in history was Sola Scriptura established as dogma?" It's clear to me that it couldn't have been before or on Pentecost. Anyway, thanks for the dialogue.
No attack here but can someone explain to me why pedophilia is such a problem in the RCC? I repeat, no attack intended. I live in germany and this circumstance caused very much harm to Christianity. GOD bless
@Temet Nosce First I thought the article would play down the problem but later on it got very interesting. That was pretty enlightening, thank you. GOD bless you and your loved ones
With all due respect, at no point did Mike Winger ever say, "Catholicism is a cult" nor did he allude to it. Either that was a bad faith take or a willing deception on your part.
I am enjoying that they are telling people to be prepared for Catholics, that means your work Trent and all that came before you are starting to gain ground for the Glory of our GOD.
Mike like other Protestant Preachers like David Koresh and Jim Jones, doesn't have any historical or organizational justification behind his ministry. Mike Winger, like the two aforementioned Protestant preachers, is truly "Winging it" when it comes to theology.
The doctrine of Sola Scriptura would state that you should hold to doctrines only if they're found in the Bible, but since the doctrine of Sola Scriptura isn't found in the Bible, doesn't the doctrine itself state that it shouldn't be held?
The attitude of Mike Winger towards Catholicism reminds me of James White. Arrogant, extreme anti Catholic and ignorant about the truth of our Catholic faith. I'm very proud being a Catholic. The true church Jesus founded. Thank you Trent, great job. May God bless you and your family for being a humble, great servant of our Lord Jesus Christ.
@@sawekx6159 Mike makes a series of AntiCatholic videos and expects no response? Sounds like he is scared and he tapped out. If what he talks about makes logical sense, he should explain it.
Mr. Parr stated, "You better have a reason why you believe sola scriptura..." yet never actually gave a reason for sola scriptura. LOL I do want to thank you, Trent, for a very informative video. I learned a lot! The issue of merit has always been tricky for me. I appreciate how you explained it.
He actually says “Let’s go to the real sources here.”, yet he clearly has never spoken to a practicing Catholic. And he’s often accused of misrepresenting Catholicism……gee, wonder why that is??! Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. He makes us sound like freaks.
Wow, the use of Romans 2-13 at 10:09 to justify works based righteousness comes completely out of context with what Paul is writing 1) specifically about the Jewish people in the past and 2) that the righteous now live by faith in Christ.
i am an orthodox, but i have much respect for you mr horn, keep defending our apostolic faiths and i hope our churches can come together one day.
Amen
🌹 😁
Amen! Praying for unity in God’s Truth! From the little research I have done on Orthodox, I am excited about what new Traditions y’all might bring to the table.
We also need the Protestants for their zeal for evangelization and good praise and worship music! :)
Amen and respect, my brother!
I agree! I pray for the reunification of our churches!
On purgatory: I am a retired cop. A catholic Priest was our chaplain and he often rode with me and taught me much. I cherish our time together. Toward the end, he was suffering from cancer and was in a great deal of pain. I remember him wincing and saying a quiet prayer in my car one night. I asked if he was OK. He explained to me that he was applying his worldly pain to someone else's debt in Purgatory. This lesson gave me a much better understanding and I think this definitely qualified as a act. I think it's relevant to your point on this matter. Thank You Fr. Collins.
unfortunately, your priest was wrong, friend. purgatory is not mentioned in the Bible and is not needed. Christ paid for all our sins.
@@vanorisk
You don't get to rip out the book of maccabees and say purgatory isn't in the Bible.
Protestants are also the only denomination of Christianity to reject the deuterocanonical books, all the other churches with actual apostolic roots to Christ and his disciples accept the deuterocanonical Canon of the old testament.
@@eddardgreybeard The book of Maccabees is not an authentic book of the Bible.
@@vanorisk
My point still stands, Protestants are the only Christians to say so.
Based on the reasoning of people that deny the risen Lord.
@@eddardgreybeard Since when is the majority always right? Nowhere in the Bible is there a verse stating purgatory is real.
Seriously? You think protestants do not believe that our Lord rose from the dead?
I've been Catholic for all of 12 weeks and I'm already fed up with these arguments...
God bless
I remember that feeling! Lol welcome home 🙏🏻
Prayers, homie. You have my prayers.
Welcome Home Mr. McCarthy!
Get use to it bro..being catholich 1 day or 100 years protestant "argument"allways sound exactly same..
We agree on the early creeds of the church…except for the parts we don’t.
I think he forgot "we believe in one baptism for the FORGIVENESS OF SINS" and "one holy AND CATHOLIC church" lol
I wish SO MUCH I could mentally accept protestantism...lol. I love how thet trust the Bible, even though it's this same church that says those books are reliable lol
I'm a Catholic but I also go to an evangelical church on Sundays and they usually recite the Apostle's Creed, although they change the part that says "I believe in the Holy Catholic Church" to "I believe in the Universal Church".
@@hullie7529 Have you ever asked them what *else* the Church believed during this period of time? It's going to start looking very Catholic very quickly...
“We agree on the early creeds of the church. Except we reject most of the canons of those councils that wrote and confirmed those creeds.”
Uh…what??? 🤤
Silly Protestants.
@@hullie7529 Huh? It is a sin against the 1st Commandment, and thus a mortal sin, to give true worship to a false god or false worship to the true God. Protestantism falls in the second part of that.
When someone says Catholics don't believe grace or Christ are sufficient, then you know they don't understand Catholicism
Well said my friend.
They redifne the words, that's the issue.
@@Moe-bb3bm Mike Winger misunderstood "merit" and as a result grossly misinterprets the Council of Trent
@@Inari1987
Brother read the New Testament which is the foundation of our faith , that is the foundation not Roman cannon or Pope decrees. New testament is closed cannon and even catholic leaders know that. You can't add or take away from it just build on it. It goes over offices, ordances and how the church is really supposed to meet, and it's nothing like a mass. That's why it was written down. 2 John clearly says don't change the basics ( paraphrasing)but apparently Catholics don't read their bibles and Hosea says people die because lack of knowledge. This is all in the douay rheims bible to. What part of idolitry don't people understand my friend. I don't care how many degrees someone has or what extra outside writtings say, if it don't match inspired New Testament scripture it's only an opinion. I'm not your enemy and I believe catholics love God too but they are decieved and it's obvious when you research it.
@@Moe-bb3bm The New Testament made me Catholic. In fact I was using the New American Standard at the time. At the moment, I had that Bible in front of me. Very presumptuous of you to tell me to read the Bible when I was...well..reading the Bible.
I saw this and immediately thought "Trent is gonna rebut this."
Same lol
ME TOOO
Water is wet. Sky is blue. And Trent Horn is going to refute this.
Anyone can rebutt anything, doesn't mean the rebuttal is correct.
@@lukusmaximus And anyone can say anything, that doesn't mean what they say is correct.
Mike Winger: - "I don't want to misrepresent the Catholic Church"
...but sir, you keep doing that, continually.
😂😂😂😂😂
It's just an intro to bashing and unending accusations.
Most of his videos against Catholic church starts with that intro
Hahaha 😂😂, he says he don't want to misrepresent the Catholic church, do u hear yourself Mike buddy, let me tell you straight to your face Mr pastor, you cannot misrepresent nor represent the Catholic church because you're not a part of it...😂😅😄 You're a laughing stock buddy
@@anthonycalipjo8669 😂😂😂
Hi there, myself arun I will make it as short as possible
I am a young catholic apologetic, you can call be beginner, I am searching for good frnds with whom I can engage discussions , Q&As sharing thoughts on catholic apologetics. If interested we can go ahead with any social media platform, or can you guide if you know any
Thank you
@@TheMarymicheal there are so many out there! Catholic Answers forums are not perfect, but are a good place to start.
I left a being a protestant church thirty years age with my husband to become a Catholic and never regretted it ,It felt like coming home .
Welcome home! You made the right choice!
Thank God...welcome to the Catholic Church ...🙏😊
@Jacki Nix yah, you are indeed home, but only earthly home that doesn't change anything about your salvation. Christians look forward to be home with our Heavenly Father, not back to religion that teach us to pray to Mary and submit ourselves to the so call "infallible" Pope.
@@veekee75 Heretic.
@@veekee75 " submit ourselves to the so call "infallible" Pope."
Don't you veekee "submit" yourself to the authority of your pastor to understand scripture? If not your pastor, who is your authority that you "submit" to, to understand any particular verse of scripture??
Would love to see you guys have a conversation.
Mike was part of the reason I became a Christian and Trent is part of the reason I remained a Christian and now signing up for RCIA classes
Thats fantastic!!!! Welcome home!!!
Mike planted, Trent watered, God gave the growth! That's amazing to hear brother.
Not sure if you heard another side of story: Mike Winger's response
ua-cam.com/video/hIAVbck93pc/v-deo.html
It’s frustrating watching this and knowing I bought into a lot of their points when I first became a Christian. Now I’m an Orthodox Christian so I have my fair share of differences with Roman Catholicism, but so much of what he’s saying can also be said about the Orthodox Church and it’s such a misrepresentation of what the Church has always taught.
Not sure if you heard another side of story: Mike Winger's response
ua-cam.com/video/hIAVbck93pc/v-deo.html
@@windsound2010 winger is kind of a clown and refuses to debate. Why take him seriously?
Exactly how i readjusted my approach to apologetics.
Most Protestants forget Orthodoxy exists, and their beliefs functionally seek to invalidate the fullness of Christian tradition up until the reformation.
They will unironically state that authentic Christianity didn't exist until the reformation
@@3leon306 That's not true. Mike has debated individuals, but he didn't do well so he wants to work on that. That should be admirable. Plus, calling someone a clown isn't helpful to the topic at all.
So youre still a protestant but with pretty churches.
The fact that Winger used the authority of the Creeds by the martyred Church fathers is mind blowing considering he side mouths them in the same video
It's the same with how protestants today will accept the Trinity, which was articulated by the Church fathers, but then reject those same fathers on other matters.
Right. No sola scriptura in Creed.
ECF aren’t infallible and we shouldn’t treat them as such…
They didn’t agree on everything
That said the RCC does not claim a monopoly on ECF or creeds and confessions…church history doesn’t start 1517
@Prasanth Thomas The word "trinity" is not in Scripture nor is the concept explicitly defined, which is why various trinitarian heresies have existed over the years. Church councils defined the Trinity as Christians understand it today, which is why non-Catholics are inconsistent in their sola scriptura.
@Prasanth Thomas If you are "shocked" by my position, then you have a very bland life. The text you give from Matthew specifies Baptism, but it does not explain the doctrine of the Trinity or the way in which the 3 divine persons relate to one another. This is why the Filioque caused division in the Church--the doctrine is not self-evident. So yes, there is Biblical evidence for the Trinity all throughout Scripture, but the doctrine itself required defining by Church Councils. You even acknowledged as much when you listed various heresies on the nature of the Trinity.
My fundamental point, which you seem to be missing, is that protestants will accept the Trinitarian doctrine as defined by Church councils, but reject those same councils on other matters such as the Eucharist, Salvation & Grace, etc. I honestly don't understand your point of contention other than pedanticism.
I was once a Catholic who thought like a protestant. I had problems with the Papacy, with the rituals and the mysticism.
but in just the last couple of years, as I delved deeply into the study of Catholicism, I realised that I was wrong about everything. and i realised the hatred for and criticism of the Catholic Church are the result of misunderstandings, misinformation and disinformation, and more often than not, erroneous readings of Scripture. Which this rebuttal of Trent's proves.
recently, protestant apologist Frank Turek, whose work i like, pointed out that there were already thousands of Christians before a single word of the New Testament was written. he probably didn't realise that he was negating sola scriptura there. because if it's true that only Scripture alone is needed and not Apostolic tradition and succession, what about these early Christians who didn't have the Bible?
the fact that Jesus Himself didn't write a single word but taught and preached orally and told His disciples to go out and preach to the world, that really says a lot.
I recently did Trent's short course on the protestant reformation, and it struck me that just shortly after they separated from the Church, the protestants were already arguing among themselves who's right and who's wrong and which interpretation of Scripture is correct. it's no surprise then that today there are over 40,000 denominations across the world.
let us pray that our protestant brothers and sisters will come to understand and accept the Catholic Church. Because the Tradition is beautiful, the Faith is beautiful, and God's grace and mercy are beautiful.
I was in(i guess im still in a little) a similar situation. I was raised in a Catholic family and attended Catholic schools up till freshman year of high school. I stopped going to Catholic school in my sophomore year which distanced me away from the Church. I eventually stopped everything and gave up and felt overwelmed and lost on who to believe(mostly about the pope). After years, I am now currently researching again the deuterocanonicals and also apostolic succession. I found my bible from freshman year in highschool and it has a brief histoy timeline about the creation of the bible and the apocrypha. Its a catholic new American so it includes the deuterocanonicals. I also was just not as educated about the main differences between Catholicism, Orthodox, and Protestants. I was raised Catholic so everything we did in church and prayer was natural to me. I didnt know that Protestants were that much that different when it comes to what prayers Catholics have and others don't. But the more I learn and study about all of them the more I like Catholicism because the history and traditionalism. I also agree to not mess with God's word by taking out books because of mainly Martin Luther. I agree with the 7 sacraments. I was baptized while I was baby and i was confirmed in 8th grade. I'm still trying to understand how our current system for the papacy and how the power is distributed to determine how we practice Catholicism.
@@Kim_Jong_Spoon I'm also in the process of trying to understand and follow the teachings of Catholic Church. I was also raised Catholic and my high school was Catholic. But I'm realizing how I barely understood any of our teachings beyond the gospel (Jesus dying for our sins etc.).
I didn't understand (still don't enough) where reasons for Church authority, papacy, dogmas about Mary and sacraments come from. But I do hope to become better now. I also looked at general arguments for Christianity so I can say why I believe it.
I just wanted to say you're not alone and I hope we'll all grow in faith and understanding.
Not sure you’re actually open to any answers to those points you bring up but here’s one anyways.
The earliest Christians didn’t have the New Testament written down. They had the apostles who wrote the New Testament right there teaching them directly. Apostles who had walked and talked and learned from Jesus in the flesh. The original Apostles didn’t use the New Testament because they were teaching it, directly from what Jesus had taught them as the Holy Spirit gave them remembrance.
It became written down as they died off, or as ppl realized Jesus likely wasn’t returning in their lifetimes. So to preserve the teachings from change, they wrote them all down.
That’s where Sola Scriptura comes in. We can verify that these teachings were what people who physically met and learned from God taught. Because of these they hold special absolute authority.
It’s not that other written works can’t be used, or that the Holy Spirit doesn’t speak today, but they lack the same authority as what we know to have come directly from God. After all, if you can’t believe what the ones who walked with Jesus say about Him, you definitely can’t believe what someone who never met Him face to face says.
@@davidpo5517 hi. yes, you got it right about the early Christians. and thanks for explaining why Protestants believe in sola scriptura. it clears things up a bit.
however, it doesn't really prove that the Bible alone is the sole authority. the Apostles didn't get together and decide to write everything down to hand down the authority in written form. in fact, all the New Testament documents were written in separate locations at different times. there was no concerted effort or a collective decision by the Apostles. and Jesus never instructed anyone to write down anything.
plus the fact that the Bible itself doesn't say Scripture is the only authority. in fact, the Bible states the many other authoritative ways that instruction is given and the handing down of authority and Apostolic succession (laying of hands, bishops, etc).
also consider that the writings of the New Testament was compiled together only much much later, and the canon was defined only in the 4th century by the Catholic Church.
the fact remains, Sacred Tradition gave us Sacred Scripture, hence both are equally important and both go hand-in-hand. before there was Sacred Scripture written down, there was Sacred Tradition.
hope this helps to explain why we Catholics don't believe in sola scriptura.
It should also be noted that Johannes Gutenberg didn't invent the printing press until 1436, and literacy didn't become widespread (in Europe at least) until the Age of Enlightenment. So if God wanted humanity to rely on sola scriptura, people would naturally have a hard time doing so until we naturally came to the historical development needed to have personal bibles and read them on their own. Otherwise, people would have needed the bible read out to them, likely from an authoritative or educated person.
Imagine if some game developers worked for a game company, left and started their own company using the knowledge and resources they've collected, and called the previous game company a cult.
Bingo
Imagine if the game company that they worked for, borrowed an engine and code from an indie company then proceeds to take credit as the sole owner of it. Meanwhile, those game developers went to go work at the indie company with the source code.
@@daddybandit4431Imagine making a completely inaccurate analogy.
Catholicism didnt start Christianity. With the false doctrine's one even doubts that catholicism is Christian. Wake up from your deception, read and study the Word, believe and be saved.
@@crossbearer6453 While my sins are being forgiven, you can continue to confess sins to a local man, and chant to a woman, for forgiveness !
As a convert from the protestant world who became catholic because of a deeper understanding of logic and history, it's very frustrating to listen to the overly simplistic arguments and/or fallacious statements about Catholic Christianity from this guy. It took me many days of coming back to this to finally finish, he gets me so angry. Thank you, Trent, for your charitable rebuttal.
are you okay?
Don't live in anger, the adversary wants us to be bitter and resentful. Rather be worried about Winger's soul than being angry at him.
@@wulfheort8021 yeah, thanks. It was a very momentary feeling. Now I just shake my head laughing
@@BeauBeckwith That's good, those types of guys get me too quite often, as long as we don't linger in it. God bless you.
I’m sorry but you have been misled. You are responsible for studying God’s word. When you learn the truth, you will learn that Peter is not the Rock. Christ is the Rock 1 Corinthians 3:11
• Adding doctrines is forbidden Deuteronomy 4:2
• There aren’t any officiating new covenant priests. We have a new ministry in the new covenant. Ephesians 4:11
• God does not show favoritism Romans 2:11 -- there is no evidence in the scriptures that the church was built on a human.
****Equality amongst the apostles****
“Ye are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.” (****Ephesians 2:20****)
“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.” (****Revelation 21:14****).
• Peter was no different than the others.
• Mary nor the saints can hear prayers. There’s only one mediator in heaven between God & Man.
1 Timothy 2:5 ► For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
There is so much more wrong with that church. I can’t list it all but they are no longer a church that belongs to God. That’s why they are blessing same sex couples.
• In order to receive salvation, we must all repent and accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior. We need no Eucharist, no veneration of Mary, no long list of good works, no baptism regeneration, no sacrament of reconciliation, no rosary, no pope, no papacy, no belief in Peter as the Rock 1 Corinthians 3:11, no man-made doctrine, no priests, no infallible magisterium, no Vatican, no communion of saints, no catechisms, no Marian dogmas, no transubstantiation, but only by faith through grace are we saved.
****Ephesians 2:8**** "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast".
Whenever people talk about a belief in "Roman Catholocism" I want to say, "Well that is true in Eastern Catholocism too. We all follow the Pope idk"
Thanks God that someone notice ..im alergic to this habit..during communisam in my country communist also call us "romancatholich"..
@Empyreal I don't think I have ever really met someone who when I said I was Catholic they didn't know I meant Catholic. Catholic is catholic. I don't mean this in a snarky way.
The term "Roman Catholic" actually was a slur for Catholics that Protestants made up because of the power of the Pope.
Sometimes it is annoying, and sometimes it is frustrating. We are not the Roman Catholic Church, we are the Catholic Church. Roman Catholic refers to a part of Catholocism. We believe the same things, follow the same pope and love the same Christ in the Eucharist.
God bless tho:)
@@zelie1155
I ended up with just saying "the Latin rite" instead but whenever it would come up it would only be among people who wouldn't have needed the clarification 🤔
THANK YOU! My father is a Maronite catholic, my mom was Syriac orthodox, and me and my family worship as Byzantine catholics. "Roman" catholic is a misnomer from the English schism, as thet still wanted to be catholic, just English catholic. Our head is in Rome, but our patriarchy and liturgy is NOT!
@Empyreal
We would say that the Church that Jesus founded, subsists in the [c]atholic Church. We don't or at least shouldn't deny that protestants are Christians, that's not the issue because every validly baptized person is part of the Church so we don't restrict that to the visible institution.
When we refer to the Catholic Church, we're talking about the church referred to in the creed
I'm only 19 minutes into this video, and this has the absolute best explanation of the faith/works "dilemma" I have ever heard. Thank you Mr. Horn!
I will pray for u mr winger. I am a proud catholic from the Phillipines.
Me, too...all these protestants accusations of the Catholics are a bunch of nonsense.
Agreed!!!! My wife is a Filipina devout Catholic!!!
@@tony1685 Google says otherwise. A commenter on a UA-cam video or reputable scholary sources? I'd choose the latter.
@@tony1685 No. I'd choose a reliable scholarly source than YOU boy. You ain't the word of the truth, only the Bible is. Not you, not anybody. Only the Bible so don't act funny with me.
Praying for others is good. pride in ones self isnt good, it leads to arrogance and not being humble... If you knew you were a sinner in need of God's grace. you would renounce yourself and love God and others differently. That's a step into what God meant to be born again. As a saying i learned, The church is like a Hospital for Sinners to be saved.
How did we get the Bible in the first place? This isn’t a book Protestants put together but rather edited after the fact from the early Christians … who btw were having Mass and communion at the time.
Exactly
We don't trust the Catholic church....but we trust the book thet canonized! Lol
I tried to ask this once in a FB thread- “Who gave us the Bible? Who put it together?” This person would just answer “God.” I didn’t believe their were people who thought the Bible (KJV) literally dropped out of the sky, all put together. But apparently so?
@@tony1685 The Bible is not just to the Jews but to all.
Romans 11:13 St. Paul writes:
13 “Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry”
St. Paul was “an apostle to the gentiles”, which makes sense, as he and the other apostles went all over the world to convert them to Christianity, not Judaism. And how was the Catholic Church created in the 4th Century? You’d be discrediting the 28 popes before the 4th Century(not including St. Peter), along with the 21 Patriarchs of Antioch before the Edict of Milan(again not including St. Peter), the 17 Patriarchs of Alexandria(excluding St. Mark the Evangelist) before the Edict of Milan, etc. The Church began with Matthew 16:18 by Christ which was then followed up by Pentecost.
God bless.
It's almost like we don't accept the Catholic tradition that the early church was specifically the Catholic Church...
isn’t Allen Parr the one who said 2 Maccabees can’t be canon because they said stuff he doesn’t agree with lol
Pope Parr has decreed it so.
He realy said that?that is to much even for protestant..lol..one of best argument abouth Biblical canon
@@bernardokrolo2275 he didn’t say those exact words but his argument for why it’s not canon was “because it teaches that you can pray for the dead which is wrong” which is obviously a ridiculously absurd circular logic
@@nicholasolsen4634 o..i see that you are catholich Nicholas..you are precise..but i get your point..same as he said im determening what goes in canon..who watching on raindeers when you commenting on youtube?
Even Catholic scholars realize that the deuterocanonical books have a different standing in the Old Testament compared to, say, the Pentateuch. 2 Maccabees may have been included in the canon, as seems to be the case with the Septuagint and Vulgate, or it may not have been, as with the Masoretic Text or the Codex Vaticanus. It’s a little more complicated than most Catholic apologists tend to present it as.
I like how Allen Parr had a lot to say on this matter. Very thought provoking indeed.
Not sure if you heard another side of story: Mike Winger's response
ua-cam.com/video/hIAVbck93pc/v-deo.html
Lol they each took turns in this one
Big Al nods very well. I wish he would settle down, he goes on and on, never letting Mike Winger get a word in
I like Allen Parr! He was so very excited about the Shroud of Turin three weeks ago! So, the two years of prayer for him since this video came out may be beginning to show fruit!
Let us continue to pray for both of these men!!
Trent vs Winger on Pints of Aquinas needs to happen. The bearing of false witness has gone on long enough.
Yes, it damaged so much
Yeah but Winger doesn’t like to debate
If he can't handle How to be Christian channel he could never handle Trent in a debate.
Trent challenged him to a debate before and Winger declined then acted like it never happened.
Winger is a coward...
Mike Winger: "It's correct - it's what I would believe." Religion of Me?
Seriously. Never mind that it’s the Catholic Church that ironed out all the creeds they arrogantly tell us we “get right.”
Protestantism is precisely "the religion of me"
@@DanUtley ?????
Mike does this frequently, leaning on his own interpretation as the authoritative standard all should be judged by and will make up his own definitions of terms to support that. In general he does good work but if you have to debate him, make sure you take him to task for his made up definitions.
@@whitevortex8323 Winger was referring to the early Creeds and congratulating the Catholic Church that got it right because it’s what HE would believe, without realizing or acknowledging that any truth he believes about Jesus is only because the Catholic Church ironed it all out in the first place in the first few centuries.
Mike has never taken the time to research the Catholic rebuttals of these warmed over assertions he makes. The pride he demonstrates in laughing about Catholic teaching which has been the result of trillions of prayers over 2000 years is quite frightening. I pray for him to take the time to sit down and talk with Trent or other Catholic apologists and truly understand what he is trying to speak on.
He is interpreting the council documents and the Catechism on his own the way he interprets the Bible: to fit his already formed theology.
If he does and actually understand Catholic teaching, he'll become catholic. Let's pray for that!
@@marianafaria6960 and for that reason he may never talk with Trent. He has too many earthly ties to give up by hearing the truth.
Catholic Church doctrine is not from the Bible. It’s all man made. It’s more of a superstitious tradition.
@@freemind9721 😂🤣 that's one of the greatest jokes I've ever heard lol. You realize just how devoid of reality your statement is?
@@freemind9721 the Bible was built from sacred tradition. The two are perfectly aligned. Seek out the truth. Watch Trent’s videos. You will find it. I am not going to argue with this point. Have done it far too many times. Don’t have the energy. All I’ll say is:
Christ gave us the Church, not a book. The book came out of the apostolic tradition. If you start with the book and never seek out more, you are starting from a point 300 years after Pentecost.
God bless you
Finally!!!! Before I found out about the Catholic Church, I used to eat Mike Winger's stuff up. I was SOOOOO scared to listen to anyone Catholic because of the stuff I heard! Thank God I am leaving Protestantism and becoming Catholic AS SOON AS I CAN!!! Just found a Parish and waiting for RCIA!
Welcome home!!!
Thanks be to God, welcome home 😊❤️
@Reverse Osmosis from your display pic, people will know you are Catholic. Christians don't display idols, even in a form of "jesus"! Idolatry is a serious sin, be warned!
And when people tells you "welcome home", don't be too happy, because the real home is in heaven with our Heavenly Father, not with Catholics.
@@veekee75 You speak like someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. Jesus established His Church around 2,000 years ago. Matthew 16 makes clear the Catholic Church is that Church along with so many other truths in Scripture and history. I do not know what your beliefs are, but rejecting 2,000 years of teaching and Tradition carefully passed down from the time of Christ is prideful and foolish. I think if you took the time to find out what idolatry actually is, along with so many other words you may also misunderstand, you could finally be set free by the Truth, as our Lord Jesus Christ promised. If you do not think about God, His Church, His Mother, people, society, morals, etc. like Jesus, then you are wrong. Take the time to study and find out what the Apostles actually believed and taught. Protestantism was made up a few hundred years ago by an apostate. Do you really want to try to understand Sacred Scripture from your own understanding or that of someone other than the 1st century Jews that spread those teachings of Christ? May God love you and keep you.
@@reverseosmosis1484 don't preached to me what the Catholic Church wants you to believe. Most are teachings of men, not from Jesus and the Apostles. Idolatry is what God hates, and where can you find the most idols now? In a Catholic Church. Cleaned up your church before trying to preach to others. Praying to Mary is an idol worshipping, this is not a tradition nor a teaching from our Lord Jesus. There are so many pagans traditions, rituals, rites and practices in Catholics, none of them are taught by Jesus or His apostles. There is no truth in them at all. You need to truly repent and see clearly what is the real Gospel.
Unfortunately most of Allen Parr's videos are boring arguments against catholicism with tired points that have been refuted a million times over the centuries. Glad Trent put this video together he can't be beaten in a debate
All Trent does is tell the truth, and the truth cannot be beaten.
"Error, indeed is never set forth in its naked deformity, lest, being thus exposed, it should at once be detected. But it is craftily decked out in an attractive dress, so as, by its outward form, to make it appear to the inexperienced more true than truth itself."
- St Irenaeus, whose feast day is today, June 28th
He does have some good content, although I often disagree with him.
Just read the Bible. No way the teaching from the Bible line up with Catholic Church doctrine.
@@freemind9721 I believe you need to listen again to Trent and perhaps more attentively. He just refuted Mike and Allen using the Bible.
@@freemind9721 if you look into what the catholic church teaches and why it teaches those things you will find all catholic teaching does line up with the bible. Secondly, the bible was compiled by the catholic church. It is a catholic book
47:21 Mike Winger says “Prove your Church with my heresy”
Which is the intellectual equivalent “Show me a Miracle and I, an Athiest, will believe in God.
This video reminds me how important it is not to tell other people what it is they really believe. It also reinforces how easy it is to interpret a piece of text...biblical or otherwise...
Exactly, people like Mike Winger would tell you they know more about your faith than you do.
protestants absolutely love to tell Catholics what Catholics do and believe.
Outside of Hell, there is no pain like that in Purgatory.
Outside of Heaven, there is no joy like that in Purgatory.
Thanks be to God for Purgatory, which promises me genuine sanctity despite my brokenness.
This is such a great way to put it, I'll be stealing this... 😉❤️
@@sethelmore5759 yes it does.
@@sethelmore5759
1 Corinthians 3:11-15
Can't refer to Heaven because there are imperfections to be "burned up"; can't refer to Hell because "he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." Clearly then, this refers to a state after death where one is exposed to a purifying fire before receiving his reward in Heaven - Catholics call this state Purgatory.
Now the burden is on you: Biblical evidence for Sola Scriptura, please.
@@sethelmore5759 "this rejects Jesus' identity" - How so? - "as it is clearly stated there is only heaven and hell" - where? - "you definitely misinterpreted that scripture" - in what way?
Other passages point to the reality of Purgatory as well - Matthew 5:25-26, for example. The fact of the matter is that Protestant tradition states there is no Purgatory, so you just assume that is the "biblical" position. (Nevermind that the Bible is a Catholic book.) And when presented with evidence to the contrary, you merely dismiss it without offering any countervailing argument.
And once again I ask for clear biblical evidence for Sola Scriptura.
Good summary.
I am a former Baptist who (by God's grace alone!) converted to Catholicism 4 years ago. I believed so much of what Winger said about Catholicism, but after really exploration of what Catholicism teaches, I found the Church that christ found and I am home. I am so amazed how easily so many anti catholic protestant claims are easily dismounted.
Welcome home brother in Christ
Convert from Seventh-Day Adventism since 2015. Welcome home
You made a mistake, I was raised Catholic and it's a fake christianty. The church has no popes, Cardinals or clerical priest.
@@Moe-bb3bm I'm sorry your experience lead you away. What denomination did you move to?
@@Stygard
Well I don't care what all them group's say, all I care is what the bible says and teaches. I'm very familiar with the topic of Bibliology and Hermeneutics. I also am very familiar with Hebrew/ Jewish culture and how some of it ties in. The first church was the Jews or ancient Israel not Rome buddy. The word congregations means Church in Hebrew. The Israelites or the Jews were the first foundational church. There is no church without the Jews budd,, Jeremiah 31:31 & Romans 11 explains. Apostate Rome forgot to mention that the real church has no Popes, Cardinals, nuns nor condones idolitry. Nowhere in the New Testament or old can they be found or are they sanctioned offices. Sorry buddy but these are simple plain facts and your religion cannot deny this or explain it away.
The distinction between “earning” and “meriting” was SUPER helpful, thank you Trent!! Praying for you, your family, and your ministry!!
I don't see how you can say it was helpful when it was completely inaccurate. In his absurd analogy, he completely ignores his promise to the gardener to pay him for labor and his [presumed] lack of a promise to his child. To merit is to earn otherwise the Catholic church's own writings make no sense.
@@TpGnnr
No, because God laid out the plan and the terms.
You need to read the parable of the unprofitable servant in the book of Luke.
Even the three laborers that got the same pay vs hours worked is a good example of what we mean.
Works are expected, they are demanded, and he gives his judgement according to them, but because they are mandatory you aren't earning your salvation because you're just doing what's expected of you.
Precisely why Paul said "it's debt" in the book of Romans.
@@eddardgreybeardThe unprofitable servant was either TOTALLY FORGIVEN or HE PAID IT ALL in hell in torments.
Call upon the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be Saved!
ua-cam.com/video/Y-Z_fIPvpFA/v-deo.html
William Albrecht took him to school on his channel yesterday.
I'm going through his video right now, it's baffling how surface level these people's excuses against doctrines like purgatory are
@@Qwerty-jy9mj Just really bad arguments, and what's worse, they think they are good. 😕
Really, I watched the video! Pastor Mike has no consistency at all. And his level of knowledge about the history of christianity is very very low. Watered down theology results on such lack of rigor!
Great discussion on merit. I am so tired of hearing that Catholics teach that we earn our salvation or earn grace. It's a shame that so many are deceived on this point, and I hope that Catholics are equipped to correct this grave error.
It seems to me that the way Protestants talk about Salvation is like a legal decree “Thou are now saved” rather than entering into a life long relationship with God/Jesus/Holy Spirit where we will ha e our ups and downs, get to know God better, reject him sometimes, etc and yes we could even reject him outright.
The Mass, Sacraments and Sacramentals (acts of piety) are all things we should do to “practice” our Faith, stay in love with God and keep us string against sin.
I am a recent revert and I see this happening in me!!! I am closer to Jesus than ever and my will (and impatience and stubbornness, etc, etc) is becoming less so that His will becomes primary.
Not sure how they could refute the effects of the Catholic teaching in a devoted Catholic.
And I think we need to be prepared not just with apologetics, but also the impact of God’s grace on our lives.
I swear you are born for this! You have so much calmness and charity when I would not be so calm. God bless!
He is a wolf teaching false things and leading people away from truth.
@Prasanth Thomas "You sure?"
I'm sure he's leading people astray, I'm not SURE that he's doing it knowingly and on purpose, but he has read enough scripture and taught enough that he SHOULD know better.
"If Catholicism isn't true, you have no reason to think the Bible is!(Well, the Bible was compiled by the Catholic Church-"
Hah... no. There were canons established before the council of Rome, and the gospels and letters written by the Apostles were organically accepted as scripture, as well as Peter affirming Paul's writings as scripture in 2 Peter 3:16.
However, even IF you're correct that the Council of Rome was what solidified the canon of scripture in the minds of Christians, it doesn't mean that everything the Catholic church claims or does until the end of time is biblical or right. That's just fallacious and wrong thinking. The Catholic church and their leaders have no assurance of infallibility, and when we see them teaching false doctrine like purgatory and twisting the gospel to say that we need to work for God's grace, they are to be marked as false teachers and avoided as Romans 16:17 says. *WHY* would we have verses like that and others, warning us about false teachers if we could not read and understand God's word rightly well enough to discern a false gospel from the true? Trust His word, not the pope.
@Prasanth Thomas "That is based on the assumption that everyone who reads the Bible should find your view obvious. Which is only your assumption"
Scripture does have a specific, correct way to interpret it. We let the clear parts of scripture interpret the unclear. If you start with scripture and ONLY the presuppositions that scripture affords you because we are specifically told, things like, God is good, He is the creator, He is loving, we should all come to the same conclusions on passages.
"That is just nonsense. There is no way you can accept the Council of Rome and deny the Council of Trent. If Trent is wrong and fallible, there is no way you should trust your NT canon-"
You can say it's "just nonsense" but you're flat wrong. There is no reason to think that different people, hundreds of years later adding to scripture are people that are ordained by God to do what they're doing. Again, I think scripture establishes itself and that the Catholic church coming out and saying "This is what the canon is" helped solidify that for people, but it doesn't mean that whatever the church calls scripture is scripture or whatever it says is true, is true. We have scripture to help us avoid false teaching and as a foundation to keep us from being led astray.
"Romans 16:17 asks us to watch out for "those who cause division"- who actually caused division here???"
The person that truly causes division in the church is the one that teaches false things. We CANNOT be united under false teaching. If you're leading a church, and you start teaching false things, and I and my family leave, it is YOU that is dividing the church.
"Look dude, The so called ' Faith alone' doctrine is nonsense- the only place in the Bible where the words 'faith alone' appears is James 2:24"
There is much in scripture about salvation. If you understand it, then you should understand that merely trying to find the phrase "faith alone" doesn't really have much bearing on what scripture teaches overall, especially when the context of James 2 is that if you don't have outward evidence of your faith in Christ, you claiming you have faith isn't really justified, just like if you SAY you hope someone in need is clothed and fed, but you do nothing to help them be clothed and fed, you are likely not genuine in your claim to care about their wellbeing.
And yes, we have to abide in Jesus. Remain in Him. It's like He described with the soils; we can let the world or our past or all kinds of things choke out God's word; destroy our faith. We can walk away from the truth of God, and trade it in for a lie, and God will give us over to our sinful desires, as Romans 1 says. Sin is deceptive, and can lead us away from the truth. Also, we are to be imagers of God, witnesses for those who are not yet trusting Him, salt and light to this world to point people to the savior. But nothing about doing good saves us, or is required for salvation. James' point is that the only he shows his faith is genuine is by what he does; by his good works.
It's somewhat common sense. If you know someone who says they're a Christian and they have faith, but their life doesn't exhibit in any way that their being transformed by the renewing of their mind, and there is no real fruit of the Spirit in them, and constantly putting on the flesh instead of the Spirit, then it's likely they are not genuine in their claim of faith.
"And Purgatory is a Scriptural Truth- all throughout the Bible is the prescence of an intermediate state"
1 Corinthians 3 is about the quality of our works, as believers, being tested when we die. This has nothing to do with salvation, or being "cleansed" or "purified", as classic teaching on purgatory teaches. The works of the believer are tested to see whether their will be rewards received by them, or if their works will be burnt up. Because we are saved by God's grace through our faith, and genuine faith will produce works, we will all have something either burning or earning a reward, but there is clearly nothing here about cleansing.
"I would love to see what you think of Matt. 5:26?"
I have encountered Catholics thinking this has something to do with purgatory before, and it's confusing to me because there is nothing at all here about salvation or eternity or anything of the sort.
Looking at the context, Jesus is walking through a series of laws and showing how they apply more deeply than we thought they did, while correcting some traditions as well. This ultimately culminates in Him telling us to love our enemies and to try and imitate God; to be perfect as He is perfect.
Verses 21-26 then are a small part of this, revealing that you can be guilty of murder without ever killing someone, because your attitude towards someone matters, especially with other disciples (believers). He encourages us to have the humility to recognize when we've given somewhen reason for a legitimate offense against us, and to go to them and be reconciled to them. Verses 25-26 are a word of wisdom to us and somewhat a repetition of what was just said, to take care when we've wronged someone and deal with it as quickly as possible, because the longer we wait, it's very likely the worse the consequences will be.
That's the point of this passage.
@Prasanth Thomas “'Clear' and 'unclear' are subjective properties and what is 'clear' to you is 'unclear' to someone else.”
That's just not the case. At least not always, by any stretch. And the more of the whole of scripture you understand, and certain presuppositions that can and should be held, like God is good, and He is love, the more you have at your disposal to help inform your interpretation. Not to mention Jesus promised to send us the Spirit of truth that will guide us into all truth, according to Jesus in John 16:13.
“f you want to understand a verse- you have to look at its immediate context”
I agree 100%.
“Well, the same standard of authority(by the Catholic Church, by Bishops of Apostolic Succession, called by a Pope)”
The Catholic church doesn't have and never had any greater authority than any other group of believers has. They are not apostles taught by God in person. THEY, did not DECIDE what books were scripture, they publicly recognized what was scripture. There's a big difference.
“There is no way a collection of letters scattered all over Christendom would make a Canon 'by itself'.”
Nothing about any of this is happening on it's own... this is GOD's word we're talking about. He can establish and protect His word however He likes.
“A notable example is the letter to the Laodiceans, as witnessed in Colossians 4:16”
Many people think this is simply referring to Ephesians or Galatians and that some of the letters were addressed to more of an area that a single gathering of believers. Either way, in saying all this it seems you are arguing for the Catholic church to be the ones to decide what is scripture, as if God isn't orchestrating circumstances and helping proliferate and spread the letters/books that He wants us to call scripture.
“Having a bible alone isn't gonna keep everything right.”
This is terrible thinking, and shows a lack of either understanding or a lack of concern for what scripture actually says. Romans 1:18-20 says that the “wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse .” We don't even need the bible to know the gospel, we ALL are without excuse because God has made it plain to ALL of us what may be known about Him. His word helps reveal more to us, but we are perfectly able to know and understand what may be known about God even without the Bible, let alone “apostolic tradition”. The traditions in 2 Thessalonians are obviously the teachings that Paul was teaching, not some kind of unwritten special rules. He was simply saying whether I've just said it, or I've written it to you, hold fast to those teachings. He was an apostle taught by Jesus personally, as he mentions in Galatians... not exactly the same as the leaders of the RCC.
“Protestantism denies Apostolic Tradition ("by word of mouth") entirely.”
Not if Paul or one of the apostles wants to tell us something, and yet even THEN, there are restrictions on what we should accept from even THEM, as Paul points out in Galatians, something that doesn't make sense with your insisting on blindly trusting a denomination because they claim to have authority.
“It talks about works playing part in Justification.”
The problem is, this “justification” is not the same as us being justified by God, this is obviously, due to the context, saying that someone's claim to have faith is justified, as in, legitimate or seen as genuine, by works, and not by claiming to have faith. In the same way, a person who says they care about people who need help needs to actually try and help them, and not merely say “go and be warmed and filled”. When you don't actually try and help warm them and fill them, you show that you don't actually care. When you claim to have faith but there are no works we see by which we can justify your faith claim, it is likely your faith is dead, or not real. Actual faith has a walk of obedience of some sort attached to it. This does not at all that God is justifying us by works, He IS however using our actions or works as evidence of our faith, as we see Him do with Abraham in Genesis 22:12 “'Do not lay a hand on the boy,' he said. 'Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.'” That's all James is saying.
“What exactly does 'it is very likely the worse consequences will be' mean?”
It means do not let the sun go down on your anger, or the anger of one you've wronged. Take care of something you're responsible for before you are taken to court and punished in an official way. Don't let hard feelings fester, use wisdom and deal with problems with haste so that they don't become a bigger problem.
“the Judge is the Lord and officer is His Angels. I can't think of any other meaning-”
Haha, you can't think of the possibility that what it says, is what it means? Why should we think this has some kind of other meaning? He's talking about being reconciled to someone that is physically taking you to court, in the physical world, with regular judge. Why would this mention a person that is taking you to court, and then switch the earthly court mid-sentence with God being the judge there? Obviously God is the ultimate judge, but that doesn't mean this verse is talking about God throwing you in prison until you pay the last penny of your debt... we can't PAY our debt, by the way, that's the whole reason Jesus had to come and be sin for us, so that we might become the righteousness of God.
“if it speaks of some human courts, then there would be no moral message in the parable.”
Oh, really? So we wouldn't have the message that your attitude toward your brother matter more than you thought, and that you might be guilty of murder, depending on how you're thinking about and treating your brethren? We wouldn't have the instruction to worship God with a clear conscience or the wisdom of dealing with issues where we've wronged someone before things get out of hand? We have all that from the plain reading of the text, and we don't have to insert some strange form of purgatory onto the text.
“So, a temporary non-earthly punishment: That is literally what Purgatory is.”
Ok, but this, is blasphemy. Jesus was crushed for our sins. He paid the price. The punishment that brought us peace was upon HIM. We are counted as righteous in Christ. This is a huge problem for purgatory, I hope you can see. ANY church teaching this needs to be rebuked, marked, and avoided.
“First off, when the metaphor of fire is brought up in Scripture”
...And it's not brought up here. Note that there is no purifying mentioned. At all. You are bringing that understanding from elsewhere, instead of actually looking at what it says in the context. And what it actually SAYS, is that the fire will test the quality of each person's works; it either survives if it was built on the foundation which is Jesus, or it is burned up. There is NO purifying or cleansing. Even IF the fire represented purifying, the works are separated from the person. The person is not going through the fire. It is merely the works that are being tested and surviving or being burnt up, NOT the person, so this STILL cannot possibly have anything to do with your teaching or purgatory.
@Prasanth Thomas “Well, the Christians who followed the Decrees of the Council of Jerusalem(Acts 15) does certainly have more authority than the Judaisers”
...And the council at Jerusalem was made up of the very apostles I mentioned previously....
“If only the Apostles taught by God are having authority- both Paul and Matthias wouldn't have.”
I don't know about Matthias; he's not said to have written any scripture, and there are different kinds of apostles, as Apostle means “sent ones”. However, Paul WAS taught by Jesus through revelation. Galatians 1:12 “I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.” He didn't even confirm with any disciples for 3 years.
“because we have legitimate Apostolic Succession- “
Ya don't. I don't believe your “unbroken chain”. And the thing is, even if I did, IT DOESN'T EXCUSE TEACHING A FALSE GOSPEL. “6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel- 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!” (Galatians 1:6-8). The Catholic Church has twisted scripture to allow for a made up thing called purgatory that says we can actually go there and suffer for sins, AND pay the penalty (!!!) when that was THE WHOLE POINT of Jesus coming, dying, and raising. Not to mention the confused adding of works as a way to MERIT God's grace. There's no way around it; it IS a different gospel.
“if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry”
This sounds like any other replacement of leaders within any church, I don't understand why you think it's special? And again, the RCC teaches a different gospel. It doesn't matter if they were the original Apostles themselves or angels from heaven, they are to be avoided.
“then Catholicism(along with the rest of Christianity) is false. Because then Scripture won't be true.”
Huh? If God created scripture and established and spread it organically, then Christianity is false? What?
“Rom. 1:18-20 speaks about the 'godless', ie those that lead careless lives, not someone of any other religion.”
You conveniently avoid the point. Even THEY have a clear understanding of “what may be known about God”. Verse 20 says that they know and have seen God's invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature. The rest of scripture also makes it clear that we can learn SO MUCH about God just by what He has made, because, we don't need the Roman Catholic Church in any sense.
“So, a person living in a remote Island in Papua New Guinea would know that a man named Jesus of Nasereth is the Son of God and He rose from the dead without even the Bible?”
Knowledge about Jesus and His resurrection, is NOT the gospel. Jesus fulfilled the law, is the fullness of the gospel, and He came as a human, like us in every way, so that he could be a fitting high priest for us, but believing the gospel of God doesn't require knowing Jesus even exists.
Revelation 14:6-7 “6 Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the *eternal gospel* to proclaim to those who live on the earth-to every nation, tribe, language and people. 7 He said in a loud voice, “ *Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water* .”
The Gospel is eternal. The simple truth of the gospel is trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ That's the gospel. Trust God. Fear the Lord. Honor Him and give Him thanks. No one in the “hall of faith” in Hebrews had specific knowledge of Jesus, yet their faith is lauded in scripture. Abraham was credited as righteous when he believed God, not when did works, and not when he understood who Jesus was...
“This is just fallacious thinking!”
No, you just don't understand the gospel.
“The text clearly tells them to 'hold fast' to the teachings handed down by Word of Mouth besides what is handed out 'by letter'”
No, it doesn't say “besides”, it says by word of mouth or by letter. Assuming the opposite of what I do opens you up to any manner of false doctrine because anything could be 'handed down' to you from anyone that can convince you that they are part of your “chain”.
“there is no reason for him to say 'by letter or by word of mouth'- as something besides the Scripture.”
I'm sure you understand that not everyone had letters sent to them, or copies of letters to hand around; sometimes all they had was what they heard from him in person.
“Now, the verse is prescriptive- it tells us(whether you live in Thessalonica or America) to hold fast to both”
Sure, I'll listen to what I hear Paul say by letter or by word of mouth, unless he's teaching a false gospel and against scripture.
“And Paul never talks of any 'denomination'- he believes in only 1 Church”
So do I. There should be no denominations. I don't claim to be a part of any of them.
At least they recognized Catholicism is different than all the other groups they talked about in the original video, but dang. I couldn’t even believe Catholicism was in the same video with the rest.
@Cam Gaylor yeah, some def say outright we’re not brothers and sisters in Christ. 😞 lord, help ‘em.
I’m becoming Catholic from an anti Catholic Pentecostal background and for him to even acknowledge that theologically, we share the same beliefs is gracious compared to what was indoctrinated in me. Lord have mercy and give us grace to speak to those who are lost and blind 😞
@@GratiaPrima_ I told my mother today I was converting and she says I’m confused and pray that my eyes will be opened and that I don’t blaspheme God. That this is not from God and more. 💔 I didn’t argue because I prayed before and I knew at this point right now she won’t be ready to hear but I pray that God will soften her heart.
@@mimi_j -You’ll be in my prayers 🙏🏻 God will guide you through this journey towards Catholicism ✝️ ❤️ I recommend reading stories about the Saints who were converts for inspiration 💜✝️
Yeah right buddy, Catholicism is system is pagan and I can prove it with ancient Roman History buddy..
Rome mixed it with christinaty. Anyone with a brain who has ever studied and got a high school diploma can read the New Testament and compare it to the Catholic structure and So call Roman Cannon and obviously see it's not New Testament real Christianity. Rome is an apostate church and after researching the matter it's clear. Gentile original Roman church was started by Apostle Barnabas or Apostle Paul not Apostle Peter and was not started the original church. Jerusalem is the original church and will be the last church.
The fact that this Mike guy had to preface every point with “and they would disagree with this” shows just how disingenuous his presentation is.
Cult comes from the Latin word “Cultus” which means “to worship”, all religions are cults, even protestantism
What’s wrong about calling religions like Catholicism a cult is that people associate it with an unreasonable negative connotation and usually picture guys underground in robes doing human sacrifice
Fun fact, in french, all protestant call their sunday worship " cult".
They will say things like : I am going to the cult" while us we will say : " I am going to Mass"
Anyone who calls a religion a cult should at least look at the BITE model first
@@hectorknuts5822 hey. Did you looked at the video's thumbnail? And, did you watch the catholic part from the video?
Because it has negative connotations. No one forces you to be a Catholic. That's one of the aspects of a true cult.
What? Cultus is a substantive, not a verb. Colere is the verb from which it comes and it means 'to cultivate/protect". Stop making things up.
I can't stand Mike Winger's smugness when talking about Catholicism. And it's not because he's ignorant, because he has been presented with the arguments, but he chooses to ignore them to keep misleading people. There's not a single shred of humility and compassion in his attitude when he just claims other people are wrong because they think differently than him.
Take it as a compliment. Mike doesn’t know it but he’s giving a great compliment to God by having such a strong reaction towards His true Church. I would be worried if he was more lukewarm about Catholicism.
I fear for Mike at his particular judgement
'Pastor Mike' is a nitwit. Jesus would whip him and drive him from the Temple if Mike was talking his trash back then
@@dennislydon3682 and the same can be said about putting the saints on a pedestal to be followed; or that Mary was sinless.
@@andriod090 why would any of that be worthy of a whipping?
"Catholics and Catholicism are not the same"???
he doesn't want to misinterpret Catholic teaching btw
but then takes what the majority of bad Catholics believe as something that represent us
@@tony1685 I'm a guy... And no.
@@tony1685
Assertions are easy.
@@tony1685 Yes, of course. Absolutely. Do you think we do not? you would also say "yes" right? what's the point of your question?
@@tony1685 images or icons are not necessarily idols. An idol is an image that's worshipped as a god. We don't believe Mary or the Saints are gods and we don't worship them.
We as Christians don't have to keep the Sabbath as day if rest since the "Lord of the Sabbath" has resurrected on a Sunday. That's why Sunday is now the Holy day.
And baptism doesn't necessarily mean "full immersion". And there's some Catholics that can do it in a full immersion, but some that because of whatever reason can't do that.
I recommend watching videos of these channel, they're great, so you can learn more about this.
@@tony1685 Alright, same to you. Read the Bible.
If God wanted specifically to not make any kind of image regardless if it's an idol or not, then why did He ordered Moses to make images? (Exodus 25:18 or Numbers 21:8)
Christ only said "Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." nothing about full submersion, but like I said, some that can do it in full submersion they do it. Can be done either way.
And the Apostles did reunite to worship on Sunday, the first day of the week. See Acts 20:7 or John 20:19-20.
The reason I recommend watching this channel's videos is because this guy knows a whole lot about the Bible and history about it that are very interesting and good to know about.
I really wish people would stop saying “Roman” Catholicism. I even see Catholic church building signs with that term. An anti-Catholic term created by Protestants that focuses on ROME, and therefore “big bad evil Pope”, completely ignoring that “Catholic” means UNIVERSAL.
Relax.^^ "Roman" Catholicism distinguishes it from other Catholic groups still in union with the Universal church, including Ukrainian Catholics, Assyrian and Syrian Catholics, etc. The differences between the various branches are primarily in ritual and liturgical practice, not in belief or doctrine.
I really wish Trent/Mike would set up a dialogue episode. It’s getting tiring to see Mike continue to upload content when he’s been corrected several times. I applaud Trent for the work, but I would just love to see Mike react to corrections in real time and hopefully adjust his views
May be a debate can cool Mike down to ground
Trent actually made a community post where he said he would be open to a conversational style debate and Mike shot him down, so unfortunately I dont think it will ever happen.
People keep asking for this debate in the comments under Mikes videos aswell, but unfortunately Mike has responded several times already that he does not want to debate Trent, so it probably wont happen
@@sawekx6159 but how long this abuse of social media to falsely propagate wrong about catholic Church
Mike is too much of a pansy to do this!’n
I love these rebuttal videos!!! As a young Catholic who want to learn more about her faith, your videos have really helped me.
This entire video is a misrepresentation of Winger’s content entirely. Please do not use Horns videos to guide you they are incredibly misleading.
Here is something to keep in mind, from a former die-hard atheist to a christian. Only God can forgive sins. Indulgences are a scheme and are not biblical in ANY regard. Praying to humans, is human worship, which is against God. The basis the catholic church uses to claim their authority is based on willful disregard for the scripture. If you really want to grow in your faith, learn Koine Greek and read the original scripture without the corruption of greed and bias of man's hands.
@@daddybandit4431Tell me you don't know Catholicism without telling me you don't know Catholicism.
I watched a podcast of pastor Mike once where he was taking questions from followers and a question came up that someone's family member was pulling away from the faith and what advice pastor Mike had for this person. His answer was literally that the person had to work really hard to stay close to Jesus. When I pointed out in live chat that pastor Mike advocates work to keep the faith, my comment was deleted, lol.
Typical!!!! Mike has a bu$ine$$ to run!!!
Well you have your 'faith without works is dead' (which as a non-christian, simply makes logical sense to me as a perspective). And then you have his. Which is strange. Protestant Christians almost seem (or perhaps they are) to be implying that you are saved no matter what you do. Almost as if you might as well not bother living your life in good faith.
Now that is likely not what they mean. But you can imagine how it looks to outsiders?
If there was no way of gaining favor under heaven with how you conduct yourself (works) then there would be very little point bothering with faith at all. Which is likely why they take issue with any traditional activity based upon shared experiences or history.
I can understand they mean it to be 'nothing can impress God'. Due to an interpretation they have. I don't share this, as a point of logic. Because if I weigh up the human experience (real life) as a non-christian; it appears to me that your character is defined by your interaction with the world over time. The very meaning of living life - is character development and the showcase of choice (wrong or right). I believe that is a credible metric of judgement. Faith is demonstrated and earned. To make it 'heh you are just saved'. Seems an insult to the quality and rarity of those living a righteous life and those barely bothering.
@@ErraticFaith I understand your comment is a year old and you might not see this. I just started Mike Winger's rebuttal to this rebuttal and wanted to read the comments on this video before I finished up Winger's rebuttal. However, I came across your comment and wanted to provide some insight.
There are generally two schools of thought when it comes to works and faith in Protestant/Evangelical: "Once saved always saved" which can lead to the hyper-grace doctrine and you can lose your salvation if you renounce your beliefs or backslide. I just really discovered Mike Winger's teachings about 2 weeks ago, so I am not sure what camp he falls into, but I fall into the later of yes you can lose your salvation. However, that is just about salvation. Your comment was about works and I wanted to give you my perspective.
I don't know if you graduated from a public high school or if you were homeschooled . If the later, then my example might not make sense to you so I apologize if that is the case. Regarding your comments about works, favor under heaven, and logic, take as an example of two high school soon to be graduates. Let's call them Jane and Jill if you will.
Jane is a 4.0 GPA student in the top 1% and will be the only valedictorian. She was in duel enrollment for her senior year, was captain of the cheerleading team, the President of the beta club, has a part time volunteering gig with the nursing home, is an upcoming junior member for the city's young adult leadership council. She spends her free time at a soup kitchen and helping disadvantaged adults learn to read. She has been accepted into 5 ivy league schools and is debating between Harvard and Yale and she has been given a full ride scholarships in addition to her other scholarships she received from being so involved in the community. She is debating between being an aid worker or a public defender for disadvantaged communities.
Jill however is barely present to even attend school. She is a continuous D student with zero future prospects. Her GPA is barely 1.0, spends her free time smoking pot and partying with her friends. She has been to juvi a few times and thinks school is a waste of time and that community anything is a waste of effort.
Both of these fictional people will receive a high school diploma. Both of these fictional people will get to leave high school behind them regardless of their effort put into it. However, one will have made the most of it and one will just skate by barely making it even though they will both get a diploma.
Salvation by faith or belief is much like this scenario. The end destination of high school (salvation by faith) will be the same (heaven [diploma])) regardless of effort (works [being a good student in school and a community member]). However, that doesn't mean the reward will be the same. Jane will be rewarded much for her efforts, but Jill will receive nothing. Just like those who work for the Kingdom of God and do good works (Is a Christian, studies the scriptures, loves people and loves to help others, is involved in their church, wants to lead others to Christ, ect), they will be greatly rewarded in heaven. However, those who just skate by while doing nothing and giving the barest of effort (Is a Christian, but doesn't go to church, doesn't get involved in the community, doesn't read the Bible, maybe says a prayer or two in trouble, tends to be rude to people), will make it to heaven, but they will not be rewarded for anything.
The later in this scenario turns people off from Christ, the former wins people to Christ much like you picked up on. However, there is no earning heaven with good works. If Jane dropped out of school to be a good steward to the community and started a UA-cam educational channel, she doesn't get to receive a high school diploma. She can't bi-pass the requirement just because she thinks she knows better. Just like in salvation. There is no amount of good deeds that can get you into heaven. There has to be a belief in Jesus'
finished work on the cross for the forgiveness of sins. This belief in Jesus SHOULD invoke a change in the heart of a human to do good works and a desire to be a disciple of Christ. Good works should be the bi-product of salvation because we have received a new heart and mind to serve Christ and others. Hence the faith without works is dead. If you have faith, it should inspire works. If you have faith without works, what are you even doing? Faith is a noun though, not a verb, but the relationship between a person's state of faith and their actions are symbiotic.
Now, regarding losing one's salvation or backsliding, I do not see that as a result of not doing enough good deeds. I see it as a renouncing of beliefs and/or the falling back into a willful sinful lifestyle and basically walking away from Christ. Think of is as divorcing yourself from Christ (not the same as leaving church). This can also bleed over from the hyper-grace doctrine which is "once saved always saved" belief on steroids as it is the belief that you can do whatever you want, believe whatever you want, and you will still be saved (if you got saved at 12 lets say) regardless of your actual status of belief or lifestyle. I don't agree with that and I reject that.
I will eventually get around to watching this video, but I hope that I gave you something to think on. Have a good day!
Hey Trent!
Thank you for your work.
You help me to understand my Catholic faith.
Love and prayers from India.
Hey Abhishek
Nice to see an indian here
I am thinking of starting catholic apologetics ,
Where discussions and q and a can be made.
Any social media platform.
You guys should check out William Albrecht, he is another Catholic brother who is starting to rebut Mr.Winger
It’s always nice to have someone defend our faith!
Yep, even satan would wanna defend himself. That's the nature of fallen creatures.
@@veekee75 It's funny that Trent, or anyone on his side in the comments, NEVER accuses the people he disagrees with of Satanism. Nor does he try to tear down the people he disagrees with; he simply disagrees with them and explains his point.
You guys on the other hand offer no understanding or love for your fellow Christians.
@@lordofthered1257 Did I say Trent is of Satanism? No! What I am saying is everyone will defend himself when being attacked, satan included.
@@veekee75 based
@@lordofthered1257 It's not about disagreement. These are salvation issues. Catholics believe man can do the only thing that God can do, forgive sins. Worshiping "saints" is human worship. Safe to say, if a religion wants to bear the mantle of "christian" then proceeds to push false doctrine and teach it as God's Word in hopes of wrapping up more people from God to their heresy, seems pretty satanic. Folks just call it what it is.
Who are protestants to decide who is a Christian and who isn’t?
Right! On what authority? The Bible, I assume? The Catholic Church says you’re welcome for that 😉
@@GratiaPrima_ Hi there, myself arun I will make it as short as possible
I am a young catholic apologetic, you can call be beginner, I am searching for good frnds with whom I can engage discussions , Q&As sharing thoughts on catholic apologetics. If interested we can go ahead with any social media platform, or can you guide if you know any
Thank you
@@TheMarymicheal I’m on Instagram as @melissa_most ☺️
@@GratiaPrima_ how about facebook or what's app?
@@TheMarymicheal hey I am a young man studying catholic theology and apologetics, if you have a discord I’d be down to talk theology with you
That's weird.... Mike specifically said Catholicism isn't a cult.
Mike Winger said that the Blessed Virgin Mary ascended into heaven, Mary was assumed into heaven by the Divine power of her son Jesus Christ. Ascended into heaven it is only for Jesus Christ by his own power. Ascended to heaven means by his own power, Assumption means from the power of other person.
Glad I’m not the only one who caught that. Ascension is reserved for Jesus entering Heaven under his own power while Assumed is Mary being brought to Heaven by Jesus and God’s.
Wow such an excellent point!
Thank youuuu I was so agitated with this video. 😩😩 I stopped because these are same arguments that have been refuted successfully but people choose to ignore facts.
You are right. They don't want to listen, yet won't learn, propagating false accusations
I struggled to listen to him too Mimi
Its gets old. Like talking to a wall
ua-cam.com/video/hIAVbck93pc/v-deo.html
God forgive u mr winger for what u said about catholism
ua-cam.com/video/hIAVbck93pc/v-deo.html
Wow! I've been subscribed to Winger for a while now and he's always seemed intelligent and fair. After seeing his rebuttal to this video I found him to be dishonest and intentionally deceiving toward Catholics. He heavily chopped up your responses to make you look bad and then he summarized what you said incorrectly to make himself look correct.
I just sub'd to you. I'm Lutheran by the way and I'm leaning toward the Catholic Church and beginning RCIA. Thank you for being honest and fair.
Answering the Orthodoxy by Michael Lofton is a good book for those discerning between the Orthodoxies and the Catholic Church.
@@zacharyahearn4069 Thank you, I'll check it out. God bless
Even I as a Episcopalian know almost everything he says on Catholicism is wrong lol
Of course because you are catholich in nutshell..
@@bernardokrolo2275 basically. Might cross the tiber one day hahahaha jk jk… unless? 😜
@@akimoetam1282 i m not blaim you..Henry is one to blaim
Why don’t you convert to Catholicism?
AKim, Cross the Tiber. The Catholic Church with all it faults and foibles is still the Church founded by Christ. Here is why...
History, any unbiased reading of history will demonstrate that the Catholic Church was that Church which existed since the time of the apostles. Almost everything the Catholic Church teaches is authentic and can be support from the Torah Shebaal Peh.
Give me any belief you think is crazy about Catholcis and I can provide evidence of its authenticity from Judaism. All the "crazy" Catholic beliefs originate in Judaism and could only have entered into Catholicism if at one time Catholicism was a Jewish Faith. And even this can be proven if you read the Bible and the Halakic Law together. In fact, outside Catholicism there cannot be any possibility of salvation. This is the realization I have come to, not from reading Catholics sources, but Jewish sources. IF Christ is the Messiah, there can only be one Church which is correct and salvation is dependant on you belonging to this family of G-d.
Trent, I'd love to have you on my channel! Down for a conversation?
Sure! My schedule is pretty tight right now but if I can come up with some free time I'll let you know!
@@TheCounselofTrent Fantastic! Shoot me an email so we can stay in contact and, God-willing, set something up for the future.
email: thejewishcatholicofficial@gmail.com
I don't have time to watch the video right now, but I have a question for any Catholics pertaining to Mary's virginity. Jesus had siblings, so does that mean they were also born of a virgin? I suppose they could have been conceived normally, but Mary's hymen somehow remained intact? But what would be the point of having just physical virginity, she would still not be pure. I'm just confused about it. Open to any answers
Haha I've gotten into this with Catholics and it's actually kind of silly - "we don't know, they could have used that same word to talk about close relatives" they have this way of taking a word we all know what it means and saying "hey, we can't be sure that's what it means when we have made this absurd claim and irrelevant doctrine surrounding it!"
“If you started with the Bible…”
The Bible didn’t start everything, guy. It was written by God’s people, his church.
--- and selected and compiled by His Church too
True!!!!
The Bible was totally fallible until 1828 when the British bible society finally removed 7 books, thus making the KJV bible in use today infallible. They really should have taken out James too. Maybe Apologia studios can finish the job.
@@JohnBoyX570 Catholic church canonized NT in 392ad. This is common knowledge.
Matthew 16:13-19. Jesus gave Catholic church authority…not Apologia. Jesus started Catholic church. You protest it, Odd.
Sometimes I really can't bear the disrespect and arrogance that these _protestants_ have. Where do they get off calling the Church Jesus himself founded a cult? And this is specially crazy getting to know the little that can be generally said about protestant ecclesiology, so founding a bible club in the back of your garage that you later rename as a church because you disagreed with the local pastor back in the 90's is fine, but submission to the apostolic faith is illegitimate??
And this arrogance and disrespect is going live on social media, false propagation and accusations. Sometimes it feels Catholicism is wrong.
Need more and more apologetics, need to defend Church.
He verry clearly made sure to say it's not a cult
@@briandiehl9257 You really don't see a problem in Winger and Parr listing Catholicism in the same video as Arians like JWs and Mormons bruhh.... And clearly labelling the video cult or Christian
@@takmaps I do see the problem. But he didn't even name the video anything related to a cult. The video is called 6 groups related to biblical christianity or something like that
There is a very 'grey' border with their presentation of the word 'cult'. To preface I understand the 'reality' of that word to be derogatory. Think, 'cultists in robes performing evil deeds'. In that light I prefer Trent's empathic and sensitive approach to the phrase.
As a non-christian I tend to lean toward the idea that regardless of what people pen/say there is an ulterior motive behind the direction. You can believe that whoever you are of course. However I interpret the Protestant angle to be how they deal with other faiths as well. 'Veiled insult'.
Basically the equivalent of those who say 'I'm not being a funny here ...BUT'. The intention is obvious - even when the words are lined with sugar.
Mike: (misrepresents Catholic doctrine)
Allen: *nods profusely*
... and at around 43:10 he grunts and mumbles in agreement also!
Yes, let's all take direction from 'Pastor Mike'; gimme a fing break with these fraud 'Pastors' joke
@@dennislydon3682 Exactly!!!!!
46:49 “debating scripture is secondary…” at least he’s a little self-aware.
But it’s not because he can’t interpret the Bible, it’s because we can see all the fractured Protestant churches interpreting scripture for themselves and then breaking into opposing camps.
Another example of Meritorious vs Earning.
As a Marine I may receive an early MERITORIOUS promotion as a reward for exceptional leadership.
But I EARN my promotion when I meat all the requirements set by the standards for promotion and the Marine Corps is obligated to promote me.
These rebuttals are great, keep up the good work
ua-cam.com/video/hIAVbck93pc/v-deo.html
Go check out Mike's rebuttal on Trent's rebuttal, and you will see how shallow Trent's rebuttal was. Misrepresenting Mike aside, Trent just took verses out of context so often without reading the chapter before and after or disregard totally the essence of Paul's teachings. That's shallow. And I admit, it's never easy to differentiate the truth from the fake if you are proud and ignorant at the same time.
Facts, I have no problem with Catholicism other than the man made points that are not biblical, and wish them all well
Satanic deception is what you are living my friend your life as you know it is guided by the Father of all lies Satan himself.
He is on your shoulders with his hands covering your eyes and ears so you can't see or hear the truth in Catholicism.
I'm sure he told you to interpret the Bible on your own and that you would understand it or you were brainwashed by so many of his demonic minions in protestant cults or sects who stand behind a podium and twist the words of the Bible and lie to your face taking advantage of your ignorance (they are con artist and you believe them)
The Catholic Canon was set at the Council of Rome in (382) the same Council commissioned Saint Jerome to compile and translate those Canonical Texts into the Latin Vulgate Bible.
The Bible was put together by the Catholic Church and was inspired by the Holy Spirit for instruction of Catholic Priests only not for anyone else outside of the Catholic Church
Anything you quote from the Bible has no meaning because you were not taught to interpret the Bible by a Catholic Priest who was taught by another Catholic Priest all the way back to 382
You can't interpret something you didn't make only the ones that put it together and were instructed on how to interpret it correctly have the authority to do so.
You obviously don't know or understand the Bible you need a Catholic Priest to show you the way
@@davidgutierrez294 Sorry, praying to the saints and Mary to intercedes for you are teachings from satan, because satan doesn't want believers to go to God directly. This teaching build a wall between believers and God. Whatever you pray to the saints for intercession, God will not hear it. Not because He did not hear it, but because He will reject that prayer which is to the dead(asleep), to the fallen and not to Him. Saints who are dead(asleep) are still without the resurrected body, they can't do anything but to wait for the judgement day. Teachings of praying to the saints by the RC churches are as good as heretic doctrine.
That my friend is true deception.
@@davidgutierrez294 When Jesus ascended to heaven, He told us that the Holy Spirit will be our guide from then on. Did Jesus tell us to rely on a roman catholic priest? No! All true believers should be allow to read and interpret the Bible freely with guidance from the Holy Spirit and Church teachers, but that doesn't mean we(church teachers included) are allow to misinterpret the Bible freely. That's the different.
@@davidgutierrez294 "Anything you quote from the Bible has no meaning because you were not taught to interpret the Bible by a Catholic Priest...bla...bla..."
Wow! How oppressive does that sounds? Very! I can't even be sure that your Catholic Priest read his Bible regularly, he might not even have read through the whole Bible once, since Catholic priest is so preoccupied in praying to the saints, doing rituals etc etc etc etc.
Oh yah, almost forgot, Romans Catholic Churches persecuted people for reading the Bible in the past. No wonder you are so scare to read yours now. Are they still killing people for reading God's words? I hope not.
Why is he (winger) only reading the anathemas?
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
It's the juicy parts, the rest would require that he pays attention
These clowns don't even know what "anathema" means.
@@argelbargel7680
This is unironically true, because of sola scriptura when they read "anathema" they can only process it in the context of the old testament so to them it means the same as "to put to the ban".
Hope other Catholic apologies come forward rebutting this Pastor Mike too.
Go to William albrecht channel he rebutted Winger too
I first came to faith at 40 yrs. old. As a new believer in God, becoming a Christian was another leap in faith. New to Protestantism, I read and re-read the NT Gospels and letters. Years into my faith journey, I was shocked when I heard that a major basis for the Reformation was Sola Scriptura and Faith Alone. Shocked...because I knew scripture did not support this. I am equally shocked in Winger's explanations. From my own list of scriptures related to the Faith/Works debate, I offer only two here: Matt 7:21 and Luke 6:46. There is no space in a ComBox to debate this. Thanks, Trent, for your explanations.
One preacher after another, it eventually became clear that there were MANY popes in the Protestant world. One had to learn their “catechism” over many months of each man’s preaching. Winger’s strong convictions are only one set of tenets of faith among thousands in the Protestant world. He assumes the position of “pope” de facto - using his personal authority to define Christian doctrine and the proper interpretation of Scripture. To his credit, he puts much time into a public declaration of his catechism on UA-cam. Again…a big subject.
Amazing. And this is why Christ left a church. He KNEW this would eventually happen. People affirming their own truths with personal interpretation of scripture
As someone who read Theology at college and wrote a dissertation on Correlation Theology and who is also a Catholic Convert, I find Mike both disrespectful and offensive. How dare he judge others and how dare he judge the Church, from his 250 years of American Protestantism... his 'church' has been around for 5 minutes and he has the gall to claim that anyone who doesn't agree with him is not Christian??? I would NEVER say that of another denomination.
Well you should because its catholic teaching that only catholics are christian
Funny thing is Mike Winger and his videos are what started me on the path towards Catholicism. Probably not what he intended.
😂😂😂😂
Somehow Mike helping for conversions to catholic Church
Me too! I watched Winger’s anti-catholic doctrine videos thinking he was knowledgeable but dun dun dun…In the comments sections ppl started naming catholic apologists like Trent, and others and curiosity got the best of me. I searched Trent’s name and I went down the conversion rabbit hole. 8 months of RCIA later and here I am… a proper catholic. To God be the Glory!!!!
Thsts great yey!!! Welcome home!
Protestants had a similar effect on me after being deceived for a short time. They strenghtened my faith in Orthodoxy
I too was heading in that direction until a Pentecostal pastor started talking bad about the Catholic church - I prayed about it and started searching for answers on the net and boom bang I stumbled on Scott Hahn and others today i eat sleep and drink Catholic apologetics. I’ve learned so much.
I am so Blessed to be Catholic! I am also so thankful that God has given you the gift to speak to the beauty and Truth of our Faith.
I’m doing a deep dive into this whole rebuttals series between you (Trent) and Mike Winger. As I pause and slowly digest what both are saying it’s like another layer of understanding is being revealed to me on what Catholicism teaches. This is wonderful and insightful. I’m thankful God has allowed this back and fourth rather than a quick “here’s the answer”.
Btw when you spoke about merit vs earning, it helped me understand how I might have been unintentionally misleading people and that’s why my discussions with my protestant friends have been so complicated.
I say all of this to thank you and encourage you to keep making these videos! They’re very helpful.
Great post!
Mike Winger is not a worthy adversary for you, Trent. He argues like a schoolyard bully, and his arguments are feeble at best. I am of the impression that his whole schtick is a vast array of misunderstanding . He doesn’t really know anything about Catholicism.
Trent, when will you be collaborating with Ferris from How to be Christian.
Not gonna happen. They're mortal enemies! ;)
@@shlamallama6433 😂😂😂😂😂
@@shlamallama6433 actually both of them have had endorsed mutual video content, Trent encouraged his channel, from there on I am big fan of ferris
Did I understand Mike Winger to say that he doesn't think baptism is not needed for salvation? Jesus said that he who believes and is baptized SHALL BE SAVED!
Did He though?
When considering what is needed for salvation, the thief on the cross next to Jesus is good to keep in mind. All he had was faith. No baptism with water. No good works. But the Lord himself said he would be with Jesus in paradise.
This is the first video I watched from Trent's UA-cam Channel! I will watch more of his videos now, definitely a knowledgeable channel about defending the Catholic Faith.
I'm sure you won't regret it 😁
Don't forget to invite your friends too
Trent never defended anything. He misrepresented Mike in so many areas. Just check out Mike's rebuttal on Trent's rebuttal on Mike. Sounds confusing? It is!
Mike is so detailed in all his explanation, while Trent just rebut without any explanation and many a times Trent just take a verse out of context. Mike is definitely a lot more biblical in Christianity beliefs.
@@veekee75 Cope
God Bless you, Trent Horn. I thank God that the Lord brought me into His Church, despite being the only Catholic in my entire family and friend group. Men like Agustine, Aquinas, Trent Horn, Jimmy Akin, Brent Pitre, Scott Hahn, Peter Kreeft, all helped me answer many questions after much prayer and debate. Turris Fortis Mihi Deus!
Let me guess, neither Parr nor Winger have responded to Trent's invitation...how about Hank Hanegraaff?
I will say I am happy to see Mr.Winger at least understanding the importance of ecumenical councils and other aspects like not saying we worship the Blessed Virgin Mary or the Pope. And unfortunately his portrayal of the average Catholic vs Catholicism proper is fairly accurate, most Catholics have no clue or ignorantly reject what the Church actually teaches.
All that in mind, I am very grateful for your work here Mr.Trent and others who have the constancy to be able to refute the misunderstandings and defending the Truth of Holy Mother Church. It is very edifying to have these matters discussed in detail and it really is a great way to right the course in what internally I believe and how I am operating in my walk with the Lord and has revealed some of the more deeply buried flaws that developed over time.
What I am saying Mr.Horn is keep fighting the good fight, you may be doing even more good than you could know.
God bless you, my brother in Christ. Through the same Blessed Lord and Savior of All, Lord Jesus Christ, Who is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Amen.
I came here in the middle of the video being discussed. Looked at the comment section and found some upset people so I looked at this video. A ton of the refutation(btw he literally said it wasn't a cult) is actually agreeing with the statements he's making, only providing context for why they believe these things. All that being said, I think this video was done very well. I definitely don't agree with some of those beliefs, but do feel better about the salvation for Catholics as a whole. Hopefully nothing I said was offensive to any of you. God bless you all and have a great day!!!
Also, I'm only halfway through this video at this time, but will listen to the end.
Didn’t he just say he would NOT call Catholicism a cult.
I LOVE Trent's response @40:10 "I have no idea how Mike is getting this from Galatians!" 🤣
..."Don't 'abandon the Gospel' DOES NOT EQUAL Sola Scriptura." 👍🏼
To me Catholicism appeals to the mind by giving truth. Protestantism appeals to the heart by giving you what you want.
You see this in Winger saying how sad Purgatory is. How could you think Purgatory is sad unless you know you do evil and are running away from God to receive what you deserve.
It is amazing how the group that holds up and praises the great “Protestant Work Ethic” for making the modern world...seem so determined to ensure their faith requires as little effort as possible.
Well Done Trent. Thank you for all your work in Catholic Apologetics and Thank you for continually doing these rebuttals with humility. We’re not out to win arguments (as satisfying as the feeling is) - we’re about winning souls.
I always wished Protestants like Mike would read the whole Bible in its context rather than just taking little snip-bits that prove their points. I pray for his conversion to the truth, especially because he seems to have such a good zeal for the Lord
A text without a context is no text at all.
He has
"read the whole Bible in its context rather than just taking little snip-bits" now THAT would be against their own "tradition" 🤣
We do. You do not read or understand the Bible you listen to what you are told the Bible says according to your doctrine which is not Biblical.
@@billykid6824 Do you mind if I ask you an honest question Billy. Is it biblical to have the bible as your only source of God's authority & revelation? I love reading the bible! Fr. Mike's bible in a year has been great but from reading the bible I believe to limit his revelation to just a written form is limiting God's voice. He speaks through the Bible, but not just that; through the early fathers in genesis, the prophets, and the apostles whom Jesus Christ gave authority to teach and these apostles passed on their authority to their successors, our bishops and priests. It was likely that these people didn't have a written word at all times and yet God revealed himself to them and granted them power and wisdom to speak on his behalf. If you look throughout the history of the Catholic Church and all the works and miracles she's preformed you can't deny Jesus works through His church, despite how broken and imperfect its members may be. Seriously man, look up some of the strange miracles that have happened in the history of the Catholic Church and you may awe and wonder how Jesus works through the Church that he established!
Maaaaan these guys are going to have a very rude awakening upon meeting Jesus face to face upon death.
And also seeing Mary as Queen of Heaven…
Preferrably they do not have to find the truth then but find it before they stand before the Just Judge. We must pray for them and be ready with a defense of the truth.
¡Viva Cristo Rey!
This is my mam queen Mike...Mary:nice to meet you finaly my child..dont cry..well well..everyting would be fine now ..
Mary queen of heaven? Is this in the apocrypha?
What I find interesting about protestant apologists is that they keep saying that the Catholic church "added" this or "added" that. They forget that the Catholic church didn't "add" anything. The reformers removed this or that. The argument against the Papacy drives me up a wall. It makes no sense why God would let authority given to Peter and the rest of the Apostles to end with their death and then let his church have no replacement.
8:06 - “Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one man can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion.” (CCC 2010)
14:10 and 14:48 - Romans 11:6
17:16
22:41 - The Eucharist
26:20 - Purgatory
26:45 and 27:02 - Atonement theory
27:50 - “If it were true Christ paid for all of our sins and we never had to do anything afterwards, then why do we ask God to forgive us of our sins?”
28:00 and 28:14 -
I am from the Philippines and most of us are Catholics and I was a Catholic. People do the rosary, and go to church every Sunday but their is no fruit of the Spirit. 90% do not read the Bible! How do we even know Jesus without reading the Bible?😥 I am glad I learned the Bible and most Catholic is not living with the Bible. Most do not even understand what is to follow Jesus.
Why not be a lay evangelist sis help others with the grace God has given you.
Mabuhay! My wife is Filipina! At every Mass….there are 3 big scriptural readings…..do you listen very well?
Catholics follow Jesus by joining his Catholic church. Protestants left the one true church.
I’m sorry but you have been misled. You are responsible for studying God’s word. When you learn the truth, you will learn that Peter is not the Rock. Christ is the Rock 1 Corinthians 3:11
• Adding doctrines is forbidden Deuteronomy 4:2
• There aren’t any officiating new covenant priests. We have a new ministry in the new covenant. Ephesians 4:11
• God does not show favoritism Romans 2:11 -- there is no evidence in the scriptures that the church was built on a human.
****Equality amongst the apostles****
“Ye are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.” (****Ephesians 2:20****)
“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.” (****Revelation 21:14****).
• Peter was no different than the others.
• Mary nor the saints can hear prayers. There’s only one mediator in heaven between God & Man.
1 Timothy 2:5 ► For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
There is so much more wrong with that church. I can’t list it all but they are no longer a church that belongs to God. That’s why they are blessing same sex couples.
• In order to receive salvation, we must all repent and accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior. We need no Eucharist, no veneration of Mary, no long list of good works, no baptism regeneration, no sacrament of reconciliation, no rosary, no pope, no papacy, no belief in Peter as the Rock 1 Corinthians 3:11, no man-made doctrine, no priests, no infallible magisterium, no Vatican, no communion of saints, no catechisms, no Marian dogmas, no transubstantiation, but only by faith through grace are we saved.
****Ephesians 2:8**** "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast".
@@johnyang1420There’s no such thing as the “one true church”.
Has ever Mike winger ever agreed for any debate?
Hope he agrees with a real rebuttal live.
Dying to see that
He has no aptitude for them, he couldn't move past basic points in a debate against dillahunty of all people.
Me too. I'd love to see Trent and Winger have a debate.
@@Qwerty-jy9mj right on point
@@properapplications actually I did some searching, where I found he did indeed got call from Trent , but he refused.
Couldn't take his false information propagation no longer
@@Qwerty-jy9mj wow really? I never really like him in the first place. I think he even got schooled on hume if I remember
Objectively speaking, the protestant does not want to relinquish their position on justification. Specifically that it is a one time event. That everything that is a growing in righteousness from a Catholic perspective isn't a growing in righteousness; rather, it is sanctification.
When I compare their position regarding righteousness from a divine to human perspective i.e. a one time event against a human to human, they are not the same. My wife and my children grow in righteousness. When I meet a stranger on the street, I don't "declare" once and for all the righteousness of the person; but as I get to experience the person he/she may grow or recede in righteousness from my perspective.
I frequently hear how legalistic the Catholic faith is from my protestant friends. Then I read the protestant doctrine on justification and laugh. It reads like a lawyer wrote it. Then again, Calvin was trained in law so that might explain it.
@Empyreal Certainly. We observe it in our courtrooms today. I just do not subscribe to this application, even before turning towards Catholicism. The other aspect of forensic justification is the accountant/CPA book keeping...the crediting of Christ's righteousness to my account.
I know many Protestant see beauty in their Lutheran/Reformed beliefs/faith. I don't.
@Empyreal Fair enough. I definitely was not using legalistic in the way you describe it. May I ask what faith you profess? Baptist, Reformed, Lutheran...or something else?
@Empyreal Thanks for sharing and thanks for clarifying what you meant by legalistic. My daughter attends a non-demonational Christian school and I frequently hear "legalistic" being used to describe Catholicism--a works based religion. So if I understand you correctly then when you say legalistic it's more akin to contractual. If I "do" work then I am "owed" compensation. This to me seems to be the protestant understanding of works.
Anyway, I was baptized as infant and confirmed at age 13 Catholic. My parents were not devout and never went to church except for funerals and weddings. I married Methodist. Spent some years going to Presbyterian churches and finally landed in a non-demonational Baptist/Calvin leaning church for 5 years before I began to actually be engaged on the theology being presented. Ironically I ended up reading my way back to Catholicism.
Along the way I came across a program on EWTN called "The Journey Home". The host is Marcus Grodi (a former Congregationlist pastor who converted to Catholicism). The programs are Protestant conversion stories to Catholicism. I've learned so much from hearing former protestant pastors of almost every conceivable denomination discuss their protestant beliefs as part of their story.
From my readings, I do admire Luther's courage to risk his life for his beliefs. Eric Metaxis wrote a great book on Luther which I found helpful.
Fundamentally though, I just think the Sola doctrines are flawed. I also came to realize that an infallible human authority to interpret Scripture must exist on Earth. If it's not the Pope and no other protestant organization will claim it then the default ends up being me. I do have a strong ego but I am not ignorant enough nor arrogant enough to believe I can interpret Scripture infallibly.
Well, good luck on your journey.
@Empyreal Your comment about no earthly infallible interpreter was articulated well. My wife holds to that position but doesn't articulate well.
Having said this, the question she nor my protestant friends ever answer is this: was there ever an infallible human authority on Earth? If so who was it and why doesn't one exist today.
The other question that never gets answered is: how do protestants reconcile differences in interpretation? There can be only one truth. Regarding baptism--either it saves (whatever that means) or it doesn't. The plain reading of Scripture indicates that it does; yet, there are some that disagree. I'm not wanting to debate. I just want to know how y"all who adhere to Sola Scriptura reconcile these differences especially without claiming infallibility.
@Empyreal Thank you for answering and not merely dismissing the question. I've pondered the implications of there not being a human authority. One could never know for certain the truth.
I struggle to understand the position you take. At the end of the day if you cannot point to a human authority then the default authority is yourself. Do you not see this? You become your own arbiter of truth. Because my wife hasn't left the nondenominational church, I continue in a weekly small group Bible study with her. Nothing is more dissatisfiying than reading verses of Scripture and having several interpretations.
When Peter said "Baptism now saves you", I believe he knew the Truth of what that meant. His understanding was infallible. The question for me then becomes, "what was that understanding?"
Another protestant question I've struggled to ascertain is, "at what point in history was Sola Scriptura established as dogma?" It's clear to me that it couldn't have been before or on Pentecost.
Anyway, thanks for the dialogue.
No attack here but can someone explain to me why pedophilia is such a problem in the RCC?
I repeat, no attack intended. I live in germany and this circumstance caused very much harm to Christianity.
GOD bless
@Temet Nosce First I thought the article would play down the problem but later on it got very interesting. That was pretty enlightening, thank you.
GOD bless you and your loved ones
With all due respect, at no point did Mike Winger ever say, "Catholicism is a cult" nor did he allude to it. Either that was a bad faith take or a willing deception on your part.
I am enjoying that they are telling people to be prepared for Catholics, that means your work Trent and all that came before you are starting to gain ground for the Glory of our GOD.
Trent I'm loving these videos, very helpful , God bless your work
I laughed with William Albrecht this morning
Mike like other Protestant Preachers like David Koresh and Jim Jones, doesn't have any historical or organizational justification behind his ministry. Mike Winger, like the two aforementioned Protestant preachers, is truly "Winging it" when it comes to theology.
Mike has the Bible to back his claims up. All that is needed.
@B looo What claims did Jesus make not recorded in the NT?
The doctrine of Sola Scriptura would state that you should hold to doctrines only if they're found in the Bible, but since the doctrine of Sola Scriptura isn't found in the Bible, doesn't the doctrine itself state that it shouldn't be held?
The attitude of Mike Winger towards Catholicism reminds me of James White. Arrogant, extreme anti Catholic and ignorant about the truth of our Catholic faith. I'm very proud being a Catholic. The true church Jesus founded. Thank you Trent, great job. May God bless you and your family for being a humble, great servant of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Hey Trent, have you reached out to MIke to come on your podcast (or his) and have a series of cordial talks? I think that would be awesome!
Mike doesn't want to, he's said it many times
Mike is scared.
yes it would be cool, but like the others said, Mike refuses to debate Trent. You can find his own comments about it under some of his videos
@@sawekx6159 Mike makes a series of AntiCatholic videos and expects no response? Sounds like he is scared and he tapped out. If what he talks about makes logical sense, he should explain it.
I hope @How to be Christian does a take on this too (no offense meant @trent, you do a phenomenal job, I just like watching both of you)
Mr. Parr stated, "You better have a reason why you believe sola scriptura..." yet never actually gave a reason for sola scriptura. LOL
I do want to thank you, Trent, for a very informative video. I learned a lot! The issue of merit has always been tricky for me. I appreciate how you explained it.
He actually says “Let’s go to the real sources here.”, yet he clearly has never spoken to a practicing Catholic. And he’s often accused of misrepresenting Catholicism……gee, wonder why that is??! Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. He makes us sound like freaks.
Wow, the use of Romans 2-13 at 10:09 to justify works based righteousness comes completely out of context with what Paul is writing 1) specifically about the Jewish people in the past and 2) that the righteous now live by faith in Christ.