if you believe that of the epistles, then you should believe the same of the gospels that harmonize with them perfectly, as well as the OT -- the whole of the Scriptures falls with that one statement, you're saying you essentially believe in a different gospel from a different god. good luck with that.
@@Taterstiltskin He's just saying that if the church was so protected from errors, then the epistles, most of which are correcting congregations, are strange. He's not denying the epistles.
My faith was shaken when first looking into orthodoxy. It was so hard to find a convicted protestant source to all the questions, but your videos have been a gold mine and given me so much clarity!
I left the Orthodox Church because of its exclusivist claims. I believe they're committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Watch the interviews with Joshua Schooping. My experience in the Orthodox Church was very similar to his. I left for the same reasons.
@@user-en6zl1cm5r please elaborate. I couldn't name a single person at the Greek Orthodox Church i attend who makes judgment on anyone outside the Church. I'm curious as to where you got this feeling and sentiment from? Was it a congregation you attended? People arguing on the internet? Or? And do you mean an "exclusivist" claim in the sense that the Orthodox think they're the "true" church? If that's the case though then every church is exclusivist. The only reason anyone breaks from one church and goes to another is because they think they have more of the Truth of Christ.
@@MikesMusicMethod The Orthodox Church teaches that people outside the OC aren't Christians. I know this from priests, born Orthodox, converts. It's well known. The Orthodox don't like to advertise this because they're trying to attract new blood to the sect.
As someone who for a while, (though no longer) was drawn by the RC church, I appreciate your breakdown that gives a nuanced balanced view of Chruch History. You give a solid, reasonable refutation to often broad brushstroke answers, which if dug into are not as clean cut as some say they are. I enjoy and commend your academically informed and charitable approach. Thank you for the time and energy you put into these videos. I genuinely think they glorify God and His desire for how his children should interact with issues and dialogue with one another.
"In the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same was also head-that is also why he is called Cepheus ['Rock']-of all the apostles, the one chair in which unity is maintained by all. Neither do the apostles proceed individually on their own, and anyone who would [presume to] set up another chair in opposition to that single chair would, by that very fact, be a schismatic and a sinner... Recall, then, the origins of your chair, those of you who wish to claim for yourselves the title of Holy Church" -The schism of the Donatists 2:2 (AD 367)
Sooo glad you became a UA-camr! I don't have the time nor the energy to read volumes of books on many of the subjects you address. You are a great asset to the church. By church I mean the body of Christ. All those who are regenerate by The Holy Spirit and are citizens of The Kingdom of God. I agree with you that it is undeniable that the Spirit is at work in true believers of all denominations.
I just got your book on triage and really enjoyed it. The papacy, icons, and Mariology are 3 reasons I could not become Catholic; although I love my Catholic brothers and sisters. I believe this verse means the same as in the Old Testament. Satan cannot thwart God and God always saves a remnant of faithful believers. Though the Church strayed like Israel strayed, God rescued and preserves the faithful.
@@flearhcp I could not become Catholic for the most of the same reasons as Tammy. I don't believe the doctrine about Mary being the new Eve. To believe that is part of the slippery slope that has her near to divine, devoid of original sin, living a sinless life (and only Christ is expressly said to have accomplished that), a perpetual virgin, and a co-redemptrix w/ Christ himself. I don't think NT scriptures support this, and digging for an OT type to try and support is thin at best.
Mariology is one of the most beatiful doctrines of the catholic church, you are missing so much, Mary is your mother, the full of grace, all she wants is take you closer to her son, we do not worship her, we recognize her an present our admiration to her. But i know is hard to acept Mariology, you have to go very deep in scriptures.
Exactly, in principle, "prevail" implies a long drawn out struggle, at the end of which, the subject is victorious. Thanks again and again Gavin. You're doing a good job. I should know. I'm almost 70 and I've been following That Person for almost 50 years, and I know Him whom I have believed.
I love what you’re doing brother. God bless you. I’ve shared your work with many of my friends. I pray that more Protestants will benefit from these videos.
Thank you Dr. Ortlund. Your content is ever helpful. Such useful recourses which help us be grounded, and not blown hither and tither by every wind of doctrine!
I’m enjoying your videos. They give me lots to think over. I found you whilst researching a Church History assignment on Sola Scriptura as part of my Bachelor of Ministry. Thank you from Australia.
Thanks for the excellent video Gavin! I benefit from your content a lot being a Protestante in a mostly Catholic country (Brazil). Let me suggest videos more related to the sacramental system, that would be nice. Thank you 👍🏻
I am so grateful for the content you bring on your channel and especially how carefully you handle each topic. Your channel is truly an answer to my prayers. I married a Protestant Christian 38 years ago and then 6 years ago he became Catholic. I was okay with this because I felt it was not my place to tell him how he should approach God. It has been very difficult because he wants to hash out all the differences and I did not. Now we have a way to look at things in a more logical and ecumenical way through your channel. Keep doing the work of God because it is a true blessing!🎉
Very well articulated Dr Ortlund. It’s been interesting to observe this phenomenon in my conversations with others (most often Roman Catholics). The deductive assumption of this phrase in relation to the proposed inerrancy of “the church” is deeply rooted in the question of interpretive authority. Great video
This was very interesting, thank you for sharing. I need to read more about the church councils... I've lately been reimmersed in Anglicanism after finding a new church and feel convicted to remain Protestant.
It's not misused, it's true. The Church wasn't established by man in the 16th century. It was established in AD 30 by the Lord. Although it's true there is no earthly pope, everything else about protestantism is wrong. Orthodox Church is the true Church, St Athanisious was the first to identify the Canonical 27 NT books that everyone uses today
Wrong choice .... protestantism is heresy as you ignore Jesus's direction instruction to eat his body and drink His blood ( Holy Eucharist) Why do you disobey Jesus? Here is the proof: Mt 26:26-27; Mk 14:22,24; Lk 22:19-20; 1 Cor 10:24-25 - “This is my Body…This is my Blood.”..... It's in your bible but you have been brainwashed by your pastors who only want your tithes Why do you ignore Jesus's commandment ? Why ? It's there in the bible Think for yourself instead of letting your pastor fool you . Mt 26:26-27; Mk 14:22,24; Lk 22:19-20; 1 Cor 10:24-25 - “This is my Body…This is my Blood.”
I found you through the Becket Cook site here. Thank you for going "deep" for all of us. In this day and age of "busy-ness" we can all fall back into forgetting scripture and its proper applications. Even as a church of Christ member we agree on so many things and as we study more, we UNITE more. Just as Paul told the Corinthians in chapter one , verse 10 "Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment". This is a COMMAND from Paul. The study of the early fathers and contrasts to scripture and all other areas keep me sharp. Thank you Gavin!!!!
I’d really appreciated a more detailed video on the iconoclast controversy from you. As someone who does a lot of scholarly research into church history and biblical theology who is on a journey inside of Christianity to something new and different from when my own tradition started me I find your videos to bring things to my attention I may not have caught on to as the literature is vast. I find myself lead heavily to high church traditions on theological and historical grounds. What you said on the events related to iconoclasm put a lot of questions in my head I wanna seek answers to from the Eastern Orthodox side and perhaps the Anglicans as well. You only slightly covered this here but while I’m still on this journey and finding myself without the time to really dig hard into the iconoclasm part of church history at the moment seeing a video from you I feel would probably help me greatly in knowing where to go and some resources to look at when I do in addition to what I hear from the other side. Thank you and blessings to you for the balanced approach you take it is very helpful even if I agree on some things and not others with you.
@Conquering Death I don't believe Iconoclasm is correct and this didn't neccicarly convince me that it is. The bigger issue for me is the question Gavin brings up related to councils and how we know which ones to follow from a empirical perspective. Believe me I will be talking with an Orthodox Bishop and Priest on this topic and I might even contact some higher level theologians from that side of the discussion as well but the issue related to councils is something I want to approach from as many angles as i possibly can. I do apprecaite your concern and love however in your comment thatnk you for it
This is an excellent example of a scholar's role in the church, tackling tough subjects and making the academic scholarship accessible in a thought-provoking and charitable way. to the wider church.
Isn’t it ironic that right after this statement about the church victorious Peter makes an erroneous claim that Jesus would not be crucified? Jesus’ rebuke puts Peter in league with Satan. This illustrates your point, that the promise of the church triumphant doesn’t mean there won’t be some times of troubled teachings. It’s reassuring that Jesus is building his church. We certainly wouldn’t get it right
David, even more ironic, Jesus Christ did not take away the keys He gave to Peter alone. The keys are never mentioned in Matthew 18. Jesus Christ renamed Simon as Cephas,which is Aramaic for rock and gave Peter alone the command over all the flock of God and Jesus prayed for Peter alone to strengthen his brethren! The same Church authority in Peter the rock and sole key holder, who stood up and put an end to all the debating at the council of Jerusalem Regarding circumcision, since SCRIPTURE ALONE COULD NOT, as Peter authoritatively ruled that circumcision of the Flesh was no longer, even though Holy Scripture said that it was. ( Genesis 17:12). Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink and His Church built on Peter the rock
@@matthewbroderick6287 funny how RC always try’s using Peter to prove that the Pope has supreme infallible authority. Especially since before the schism the Church didn’t view it this way. Maybe in Rome they did, because that was their bishop of the Patriarch, but the majority of the Church never seen it this way and the Church is not made up of some peoples quotes, but what has been believed everywhere at all times by all Christians. All the other Patriarchs agreed that the Pope did not have supreme infallible authority. The one in Rome, went off on their own hungry for power and influenced through power in the west. The Pope is not Peter, so please stop using Peter to try and prove the Papacy. The Papacy has literally been used to divide the Church many times, to the point of 45000 Protestant denominations. They schismed the Church, the Orthodox Church in 1054 by proclaiming supreme power and authority, then caused all sorts of blasphemy with selling of indulgence, and only 500 years later their actions created another schism with horrible consequences. Because they decided to change their intellectual theology of Plato, by Augustine to Thomas’s Aristotle. Then now the Papacy prays with Pagans and teaches others to do so as well and is creating another schism with Traditionalist SSPX. Nothing but division and corruption has come from the RC by their pride and hunger for power and control.
@WORLD-MINISTRY mine is actually the Truth! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink!
As a former Dutch Calvinist and a deacon candidate in Byzantine Catholic, I am glad for this irenic response. I agree that the language of The Church Lapsed has been abused by many Orthodox and Catholics. I think the question can be framed differently. When can we say objectively that the Church significantly has been corrupted? For an example during the lifetime of the Apostles we found many heresies yet the Church survived. But by the time we are at Ephesus the Council was closed with an Akathist to Theotokos and at Chalcedon during the sessions the fathers went to St Euphemia's shrine. These need to be addressed. Unlike the usage of music or the wearing of sandals which are non theological, veneration of saints at ecumenical councils made their dogmatic announcement suspect of heresies. Would like to see you and Joshua Schooping together. God bless!
@YAJUN YUAN yes they did. I was asking for a follow up. Maybe better all three Gavin Ortlund, Joshua Schooping, and Matthew Joyner. As an Irenic Catholic, I would like to hear how they address these so called anomalies in the Early Church. Like how can they accept Ephesus when the Council was closed with an Akathist to Theotokos and how can they accept Chalcedon when during the session the fathers venerated St Euphemia's shrine at Chalcedon? These anomalies need to be addressed by Protestants. Privately I had a correspondence with one of them and basically Protestants do not accept any ecumenical councils as Catholics or Eastern Orthodox do but rather selectively as long as it aligns with Scripture. This is why Protestants don't accept canons from the First Nicaea on monastic celibacy and hierarchic structure in the Church. When I was a Dutch Calvinist that's how I accept all six ecumenical councils. This basically argues that around the fourth century the Church has lapsed at least partially if not totally. Because this is systemic and everywhere. We can't find a Protestant church in the first millennium.
"See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid." The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans Chapter 8 -- circa 110 A.D
Thanks for that amazing video, and I loved you mentioned council of Frankfurt, I've read about it and Christians in North Western Europe were definitely more close to the reformation than to the counter reformation
Great stuff!! Really helps a Protestant like me that have felt almost outside of the faith because of the claims of the orthodox. It concerned me to think I should take my focus off of Christ and place it in Eastern Church. I can’t square that with hundreds of verses
@Conquering Death Protestants wouldn't deny that. They simply argue that the Bishops, sitting on the seat of Peter and the Apostles, are not magically caused to become infallible the moment some arbitrary "ecumenical" volume of them meet together.
Precisely! I can only share my 20 years in EO, but your concern is exactly what happened to me. One becomes so totally immersed in reading the lives of the saints, the liturgical texts, the prayerbook with it's dozens of negative affirmations, and the hundreds of Icons begging for your gaze, that the simple promises of the Bible fade into the background. The rituals become your salvation, which are always slipping away into the future, while you anticipate the next sacramental treatment! You are never able to locate forgiveness, because its a moving target that ends up at the Demoniac Tollhouses after bodily death, and if you escape the DT, you face the Last Judgment. An abysmal hope to be sure! The Apostle Paul's warning about being seduced from the simplicity of Christ becomes a reality. Christ settled the sin issue once and for all! Eastern Orthodoxy does not understand this!
@@courtneykees21. I’ve researched EO because I know so many young people who have converted (including my SIL). The beautiful reverence, claims of historicity & intentionality draws them, I think. However, when I studied some of the distinctive doctrines (icons, Mariology, understanding of the Gospel, etc) in comparison to the Scriptures. They not only don’t stand up, but consistently draw the eye away from the finished work of Christ (which the book of Hebrews goes into extensively).
This is great! I teach like this, and on subjects like this a lot, but I'm not a scholar. I have read the fathers up to Cyprian, read the writing at and surrounding Nicea, written a book on the Council of Nicea, and my skill is scouring such things so those that don't can understand them. You seem to be doing the same thing, but your knowledge is a lot wider than mine. I'll be watching some of your videos for research, and especially for finding sources to read. Very impressed. Thank you. (When I use you as a source, I'll give you a link for whatever that is worth.)
Gavin, let me first say you are an absolute blessing! As someone who has been discerning Catholicism for a while, your work has been a serious roadblock in that journey. I mean that in the best way possible. LOL. I just love your irenic approach and it's a shame there aren't many like you in the Protestant world who are so well-read and can give as compelling of a case for Protestantism as you have. You've given me so much to think about and have made me question if Catholicism is really where God is leading me. Keep up the good work. I do have a couple questions: 1. Will you be doing any more debates with Catholics again in the near future? Your debate with Suan Sonna was excellent. 2. What would be your response to the Catholic claim that Sola Scriptura leads to doctrinal anarchy and that we need an infallible magisterium to interpret it?
Doesn’t the visual imagery conjured up by this verse imply that the Church is the aggressor here? In other words, it’s not that hell is attacking the Church and the promise is that the Church will endure and overcome the onslaught. Instead, it is the Church that is leading the onslaught and the gates of hell will not prevail. Seen this way I don’t see how this verse can be offered as an apologetic for preservation of doctrinal integrity through all of history.
The way I've always read it (even before I became interested in apologetics) was that the phrase "the gates" was a synecdoche (referring to the whole by a part). In this instance, the gates are an emblem of the city. Sort of how for us the flag of a country represents the country. So if I said, "The Russian banner will not prevail against Ukraine", I am referring to the country of Russia as a whole. And when Jesus says, "the gates of Hades", He is referring to Hades itself and all of its power. But that's just a difference which Bible nerds would debate. Even if one rejected that view of the phrase, it doesn't seem like a problem for the argument in question. Because if your army is offensively prevailing against the enemy gates, it sure as hell (no pun intended) isn't conquering you. Thus, saying that the Church will not fail to storm the gates of Hades includes the idea that evil will be wildly unsuccessful in its attempts to assail the Church.
I agree with Raj. Dr. Michael Heiser takes a close look at the Greek and suggests that a better modern translation of 'prevail against' is 'withstand'. He also takes a look at the immediate context of the passage and points out that Jesus and his disciples are standing in Caesarea Philippi, the location of the 'Gates of Hades', an ancient cave known at that time for the worship of false gods.
Hey Gavin, I'm Not sure if you will read this comment, yet I hope you do because I like your work. I Suggest you Read Michael Heiser's book Reversing Hermon. In his book, he argues that the rock in Matthew is not peter, his confession, or Christ, yet actually mount Hermon. He also says that "The gates of hades shall not prevail against it" is a bad translation, and says it should be translated as "The gates of Hades will not be able to withstand it." This changes the meaning of the verse from defense to offense. The church isn't being attacked by hades, It is the one attacking Hades.
I can't help but prefer Dr Heiser's view of removing the supplied word (against) leaving the possibility of translation open to being, The gates of hell will not withstand* it.
My understanding is that the meaning of 'prevail' has shifted from originally, 'withstand' to 'overcome'. The new meaning has the gates marching to overcome the church; the old meaning has the gates of death not being able to withstand the triumphant church--in the end, the church wins. Yeah! Whadayathink?
"...gates of hell will not prevail...." - means no teachings from hell can enter the church - The true church will never succumb to pressures to conform to the secular world.
@@bethl Error like what? This is the only church that has zero tolerance for abrtn, no divorce, no remarriage, no artificial birth control, etc. It never succumbed from the intense pressure from the secular world to conform. All other churches has given way and accepted them in various degrees into their church.
@@bethl The church never succumbed from the intense pressure from the secular world, (even from Catholics) to conform. All other churches has given way and accepted them in various degrees into their church.
I highly recommend checking out Michael Heiser’s take on this verse considering the significance of WHERE they are when Jesus says this and how Protestants and Catholics might be missing some of the messaging built into this verse by focusing on this Pope issue.
I think the teaching of Dr Heiser is the most coherent understanding of this passage. Caesarea Philippi is home to a location called The Gates of Hell and that's where He started His church as an attack against death
I appreciate these videos. By that I mean I despise them because they are challenging for me! Lol I’m jk I know it’s a good thing! A few things I just thought (and who cares I’m no scholar lol) is obviously we are connecting this to RC doctrine. I know you had mentioned that you were only speaking to this one part of this verse and you’ve talked about it in other videos but Catholics would also turn to the other parts of the passage and draw different conclusions from those passages that lead to these beliefs such as “changing Simon’s name to Rock and then naming him the Rock upon which He’ll build the Church”, the “keys of the kingdom and the connection to the typology in the book of Isaiah” and cultural understandings of the role of “binding and loosing”. Along with the comparisons of Jesus sending out the 70 or 72 being comparative to Moses establishing the 70 or 72 elders for the “ministerial” type priesthood. Then they would also appeal to several Church fathers as well. I know you weren’t arguing against the whole thing and were only talking about the “gates of Hell prevailing against” and the definition of “Church”. I’m just saying in the way that they are defining things I think you almost have to include the whole argument to represent it fairly. Idk just my thought. Thank you for everything you do!
Yes this verse is drilled over and Over by Roman Catholic apologists. If the church is the Body of Christ (meaning all the born again believers whether they be Catholic, Protestant , Orthodox, Copic etc.) than no need exists to use the verse as an exclusive ecclesiastical authority bludgeoning tool. Howeve, that is not to completely discount a visible aspect of the church. Secondly, "the gates of hell shall not prevail" I take to be a doctrine of assurance of salvation verse. The church (meaning all the authentic believers) will prevail through Christ as the head of the church. This accords well with many other sayings of Jesus in the gospels such as "I give them (the church) eternal life and they shall never perish. All those that the Father gives to me will come to me and I will raise them up on the last day....My sheep (the church) hear my voice and they will follow me, they will not listen to the voice of a stranger (i.e the gates of hell (satan)shall not prevail against them...etc.
It cannot be honestly argued by anyone that really knows what the Bible says that God's Church consists of all believers when Jesus repeatedly warned that there would be about false converts using His name to deceive ppl. He even went so far as to say _many_ will be deceived.
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 The believers are the true believers...some fall away but they had no root and John says they went out from us BECAUSE they were NEVER really of us....so yes the believers are the church.
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 Phil 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began (A)a good work in you (B)will bring it to completion at (C)the day of Jesus Christ.
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 Jeremiah 32:40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me.
I heard a Roman Catholic bishop point this out on Pints with Aquinus recently. It means the Kingdom of God advances and the gates of Hades will not prevail but be overcome. It should encourage us. I think you are right that it gets misused to negate the possibility of any imperfect doctrine arising, but I still would find it strange if God did not retain a remnant of perfect doctrine throughout the first 3/4s of church history. Also, even if it were true that none of the churches remained orthodox, the likelihood of attaining orthodoxy by way of the passage of protestant history and doctrinal development seems to be less and less likely but that's just my general instinct. I'm open to argument.
I find it so interesting that people are upset that the EO church has exclusivist doctrines, when literally our entire religion is one massive exclusivist claim.
Sometimes I watch your channel from devices I'm not signed into, alot of youtubers complain about viewers who dont subscribe, this could be a part of it.
Great video. I just came across your channel a couple of days ago and subscribed. I am curious if you have ever heard Dr Michael Heisers explanation for the gates of Hell and if so, what are your thoughts on that.
@@TruthUnites it's a strong interpretation from Jesus 2nd temple period Biblical Judaism that says the Gates of Hell is the huge Rock in Caesarea Phillipi that is THIS ROCK ,not Peter and is what Peter is contrasted to. The Large Cave is the Gates of Hell in this Pagan worship site of THIS ( huge) ROCK ! The verse where Christ also tells Peter to Get behind me Satan cannot be taken literally either! So if Peter is literally THIS ROCK he is also Satan in a verse down the page. I don't see both as being literal and is a stronger interpretation than the polemic Protestant one against the RCC interpretation.
“What does it mean?” According to whom? Who is to be trusted when it comes to understanding the Holy Scriptures, Councils, history itself? Should one trust in once own wit, some modern scholar? Shouldn’t the 2000 years old Church of the Seven council that had the letters written to, that compiled them along with the rest of the Holy Scriptures and made them “Bible” be tasked with this responsibility?
The Catholic Church has made so many doctrinal errors AND unbiblical/ extrabiblical additions for 2,000 years largely because it is powered by manmade sinful leaders. It is NOT to be trusted, up to the present time, but THE SCRIPTURES, JESUS & THE SPIRIT should be the focus & authority. Much shame on the hierarchy & behavior of RCC; we ALL are imperfect & sin.
Good exposition of this passage. I think there is a rich historical context within the region of where Jesus and his followers were when He made this powerful statement regarding the Church. It was a place where great evils of child sacrifice took place. It was allegorically known as the "Gates of Hell". In other words, not even the most evil thing you can imagine has power over me. Jesus is teaching, "Do you trust that no matter how evil things will get, I will never leave you or forsake you?" P-O-W-E-R-F-U-L
It means you don't have to worry, don't have to threaten, don't have to torture people to support the church. Jesus makes this guarantee, so that none of us shall worry about who is destroying the church, or if we are. Just follow you calling, in what ever faith you have. None of us believe it, so we get angry, talk ugly to different communities within the church, and without, as if we're afraid to loose it.
I always wondered how it came to be that the RC statement that Matthew 16:18 means that when the Pope speaks ex cathedra, that the Holy Spirit prevents the Pope from making doctrinal errors. I dont understand that.
Prevailing in the context of being a gate, means to remain shut. Obviously Jesus is saying that the church will finally stretch even through the realm of the dead in the final analysis. Ah, but that would be scandalous right? Everyone must have their punishment, no? No! Justice isn't actually punishment, but to bring to life, to bring to participation. That is the purpose of our creation. To do that work. Not to work in order for some reward, but to do those things, because that is what brings Joy.
Could Protestantism be an error? That’s mostly just my attempt at being provocative and jabbing a little for fun but I guess it’s maybe also a valid question? I guess as a Catholic I’ve never taken that to mean certain bishops/councils or that the Church never does anything wrong or can’t err. Nor do I really know any Catholics who don’t openly recognize the errors and abuses through church history. But I think we would affirm that “the Church” is a thing that Jesus instituted, gave authority to the apostles to operate, established a first among equals, and promised its perseverance through the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit. My concern is that “the church” being just the body of believers without any objective institutional teaching office “where the Buck stops” has led to a lot of believers believing in some version of themselves that they find support for in their reading of scripture rather than what the Church teaches across time and in proper context. This goes for Catholics just the same, don’t get me wrong, but I’d argue that we have an apparatus we can point to and say no, you’re wrong, whereas the Protestant (on my limited, biased view) can only say “no Scripture doesn’t say that.” But who’s view is actually authoritative if two people disagree on something. Just my thoughts. As always I adore your channel, it challenges me in the best ways.
Hello Mm, If you would allow me, I'd like to address a few of your points: "Could Protestantism be an error?": If seems you may be thinking of "Protestantism" in a (Roman) Catholic sense of singular, irreformable, entity. "Protestantism" was born out of a proposed need to reform, and such, could be said to be in a constant flux of reform. That being said, "Protestants" could acknowledge possible errors and the need to reform them at various points of church history. So to ask if "Protestantism" could be an error seems to ask if some irreformable entity is wrong, at this moment...which doesn't seem to represent the nature of "Protestantism". I also think that people who do not identify as (Roman) Catholic, (Orthodox) Catholic, etc, can agree that Jesus instituted the "Chruch" with authority to operate and perservere through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The "Church" can be both "the body of believers" as well as an "objective institution". We just may disagree on the boundaries of said institution. Regarding the apparatus you mention as your means of clarifying your understanding on matters of faith, allow me to ask you this: How do you interpret what your apparatus says regarding these matters, and could you consider that you may use this apparatus as a backstop in the same manner people you may identify as "protestant" do the same thing with God's Word?
@@susanburrows810 wait aren’t we all sinners? No abuses or sinners in Protestant churches, wow! Seem to have utterly missed the point of my comment. Good job.
I have a question. When the people of Israel were falling into idolatry over and over, was it just the people? Or were the priests and prophets and religious authorities leading the people into idolatry? Or did the religious leaders remain true?
There was never teaching saying it was ok, but the high priests would engage in it. Uriah under Ahaz participated in worship to pagan gods within the temple.
I'm not sure I quite agree with your interpretation, gates are defensive structures not offensive. This would mean that the church will plunder and win those who are held by the grasp of hades
In p252 of "Principles of Catholic Theology", Ratzinger actually uses the ecclesia term to sketch out how the idea of "office" came out of the term. He doesn't do it in relation to Matthew 16:18 specifically, but basically the whole form of the early church as ecclesia in ecclesiis.
Dr. Ortlund, what reason do you think "church" refers to a local congregation or congregations in a city? I have often heard that "the Church at this city" is used to refer to local congregations, which is very different than just referring to that congregation as "a church". It would seem the former formulation fits better with the Catholic paradigm of the one hierarchical Church. Your thoughts?
I think that a nuanced view of Magisterial authority can be fit with some of your objections. Catholics will admit that members of the Church including bishops have taught error, but the Church has not fallen into error in the way Protestants suppose.
Lateran Council 1 Canon 21: We absolutely forbid priests, deacons, subdeacons, and monks to have concubines or to contract marriage. Lateran Council 2 Canon 6: For since they should be and be called the temple of God, the vessel of the Lord, the abode of the Holy Spirit, it is *unbecoming* that they *indulge in marriage* and in *impurities.* 1 Timothy 4:1-3 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and *teachings of demons,* through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who *forbid marriage* 1 Corinthians 9:5 *Do we not have the right* to take along a believing wife, as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? Canon 21 continued: We decree in accordance with the definitions of the sacred canons, that *marriages already contracted by such persons must be dissolved,* and that the persons be condemned to do penance. Matthew 19:6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate. Innocent III, 1204 "We destine specially to this, that the material sword may be sanctioned to supply the defect of the spiritual sword, and you, besides the temporal glory which you will attain from so pious and praiseworthy a work, may obtain that pardon for sins, which we grant as an indulgence for the remission of their sins, since we want those who faithfully shall have laboured against the heretics to rejoice in the same indulgence as we grant as an indulgence for those crossing the sea for the aid of the Holy Land." Lateran Council 4 Canon 3: Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and *to the best of their ability to exterminate* (pro viribus exterminare studebunt) in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church. _Ad extirpanda_ of Pope Innocent IV: We decree that the head of state [...] shall observe, both what is written herein, and other regulations and laws both ecclesiastical and civil, that are published against heretical wickedness. [...] No heretical man or woman may dwell, sojourn, or maintain a bare subsistence in the country, or any kind of jurisdiction or district belonging to it, whoever shall find the heretical man or woman shall boldly seize, with impunity, all his or their goods, and freely carry them off. [...] The head of state, or whatever ruler stands foremost in the public esteem, must cause the heretics who have been arrested in this manner to be taken to whatever jurisdiction the Diocesan, or his surrogate, is in, or whatever district, or city, or place the Diocesan bishop wishes to take them to. [...] *The head of state or ruler **_must force_** all the heretics whom he has in custody, provided he does so without killing them or breaking their arms or legs* to confess their errors and accuse other heretics whom they know. Lateran Council 1 Canon 21: We absolutely forbid priests, deacons, subdeacons, and monks to have concubines or to contract marriage. Lateran Council 2 Canon 6: For since they should be and be called the temple of God, the vessel of the Lord, the abode of the Holy Spirit, it is *unbecoming* that they *indulge in marriage* and in *impurities.* 1 Timothy 4:1-3 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and *teachings of demons,* through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who *forbid marriage* 1 Corinthians 9:5 *Do we not have the right* to take along a believing wife, as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? Canon 21 continued: We decree in accordance with the definitions of the sacred canons, that *marriages already contracted by such persons must be dissolved,* and that the persons be condemned to do penance. Matthew 19:6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate. Innocent III, 1204 "We destine specially to this, that the material sword may be sanctioned to supply the defect of the spiritual sword, and you, besides the temporal glory which you will attain from so pious and praiseworthy a work, may obtain that pardon for sins, which we grant as an indulgence for the remission of their sins, since we want those who faithfully shall have laboured against the heretics to rejoice in the same indulgence as we grant as an indulgence for those crossing the sea for the aid of the Holy Land." Lateran Council 4 Canon 3: Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and *to the best of their ability to exterminate* (pro viribus exterminare studebunt) in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church. _Ad extirpanda_ of Pope Innocent IV: We decree that the head of state [...] shall observe, both what is written herein, and other regulations and laws both ecclesiastical and civil, that are published against heretical wickedness. [...] No heretical man or woman may dwell, sojourn, or maintain a bare subsistence in the country, or any kind of jurisdiction or district belonging to it, whoever shall find the heretical man or woman shall boldly seize, with impunity, all his or their goods, and freely carry them off. [...] The head of state, or whatever ruler stands foremost in the public esteem, must cause the heretics who have been arrested in this manner to be taken to whatever jurisdiction the Diocesan, or his surrogate, is in, or whatever district, or city, or place the Diocesan bishop wishes to take them to. [...] *The head of state or ruler **_must force_** all the heretics whom he has in custody, provided he does so without killing them or breaking their arms or legs* to confess their errors and accuse other heretics whom they know.
@@Mygoalwogel actually yes, even if where not quote mining, still would not prove satanic Protestantism to be correct because you still have to deal with eastern Orthodox who have apostolic succession.
Origen homilies on Matthew 16:18 Every Sin- Every False Doctrine is a Gate of Hades: But when we have understood how each of the sins through which there is a way to Hades is a gate of Hades, we shall apprehend that the soul, which has spot or wrinkle or any such thing, Ephesians 5:27 and because of wickedness is neither holy nor blameless, is neither a rock upon which Christ builds, nor a church, nor part of a church which Christ builds upon the rock. But if any one wishes to put us to shame in regard to these things because of the great majority of those of the church who are thought to believe, it must be said to him not only Many are called, but few chosen; Matthew 22:14 but also that which was said by the Saviour to those who come to Him, as it is recorded in Luke in these words, Strive to enter in by the narrow door, for many, I say unto you, shall seek to enter in through the narrow door and shall not be able; Luke 13:24 and also that which is written in the Gospel of Matthew thus, For narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leads unto life, and few be they that find it. Matthew 7:14 Now, if you attend to the saying, Many, I say unto you, shall seek to enter in and shall not be able, Luke 13:24 you will understand that this refers to those who boast that they are of the church, but live weakly and contrary to the word. Of those, then, who seek to enter in, those who are not able to enter will not be able to do so, because the gates of Hades prevail against them; but in the case of those against whom the gates of Hades will not prevail, those seeking to enter in will be strong, being able to do all things, in Christ Jesus, who strengthens them. Philippians 4:13 And in like manner each one of those who are the authors of any evil opinion has become the architect of a certain gate of Hades; but those who co-operate with the teaching of the architect of such things are servants and stewards, who are the bond-servants of the evil doctrine which goes to build up impiety. And though the gates of Hades are many and almost innumerable, no gate of Hades will prevail against the rock or against the church which Christ builds upon it. Notwithstanding, these gates have a certain power by which they gain the mastery over some who do not resist and strive against them; but they are overcome by others who, because they do not turn aside from Him who said, I am the door, John 10:9 have rased from their soul all the gates of Hades. And this also we must know that as the gates of cities have each their own names, in the same way the gates of Hades might be named after the species of sins; so that one gate of Hades is called fornication, through which fornicators go, and another denial, through which the deniers of God go down into Hades. And likewise already each of the heterodox and of those who have begotten any knowledge which is falsely so called, 1 Timothy 6:20 has built a gate of Hades- Marcion one gate, and Basilides another, and Valentinus another.
As you noted, no representatives from the five Patriarchates were present at the Council of Hieria even though there were a large number of bishops present. The council was later overturned by the Second Council of Nicea which had full representation of all the Patriarchates. Also, the Council of Frankfurt seems to have only concerned certain regions in the West for it had no Eastern representation and was never adopted as authoratative for the entire Church.
Yeah honestly, I have never once concluded that Matthew 16:18 meant that the church was protected from any doctrinal error. I always understood it to mean the church would stand the test of time, and always exist. Honestly this doesn't work for Catholicism because just look how divided Catholics are amongst themselves. The traditionalist condemn the liberals and sedevacantist, and sedevacantist condemn the traditionalist and liberals, and the liberals condemn the other two. Some love Francis, others cannot stand him, some think he isn't the real pope, and others think he's the antichrist. Francis is night and day opposite of his predecessor. But then even Vatican 2 is opposite of pre Vatican 2, even though some attempt to damage control it.
I thank GOD for Luther's (and others) boldness more and more... The more I study and learn, the more I realize how little I know and yet despite my ignorance, I do know that in communication it is imperative we seek to understand what the speaker meant and not read into it something what we wanted them to say. The NT was written almost entirely by Jewish men during the 1st century AD. Jesus went first to minister to the house of Israel and spoke overwhelmingly to a JEWISH audience who mostly rejected him. The OT was written by Israelites and overwhelmingly deals with Israel. The law was given to the Israelites. The promise was given to the Israelites. The lens through which OT and NT passages SHOULD be interpreted is a 1st century AD lens and backwards, meaning that in order to understand the content, we need to the context and that is NOT a 3rd, 4th...or 21st century lens. Not only this but in order to arrive at the doctrines of church infallibility, apostolic succession and papal infallibility, one has to read into verses ideas that are clearly NOT explicit and would be completely foreign to any 1st century Jew living in the region at the time. You have to fast forward a couple hundred years (an eternity in church years) to find the seeds of these doctrines even being sown. Yet holding to these accretions forces one to exclude ALL evidence to the contrary. Peter was hardly infallible. He denied Christ, THREE TIMES. He had a major fallout with Paul (Galatians 2). He cut off the servant to the high priest's ear.... On one occasion he opposed Christ and was called "satan" (adversary). If you're trying to make a case for infallibility, Peter is a poor example, as are we all.... If the argument is that the "church" is infallible then you must omit the first few chapters of Revelation entirely. You'd also have to overlook Paul's letters to the churches addressing their REGULAR errors. We can't look to Paul as infallible as he considered himself chief among sinners. So if Peter is fallible, Paul is fallible and the 1st century churches are fallible then how does one arrive at the doctrine of either "church" or Apostle/Pope/Bishop being infallible? Logically, you cannot. Moreover, there is ZERO OT precedent for it!!! The High Priest, the closest parallel one might have to a Pope was NOT infallible and had to become ritually clean REGULARLY in order to fulfill his role, which was only for a short duration. The Levitical priests were not infallible and regularly made mistakes. Israel regularly fell into sin, idolatry, sorcery, wickedness, immorality... Why then would anyone expect that under the new covenant that an "institution" would exhibit attributes for which there are no parallels in the OT and moreover, why would we overlook CLEAR examples of that institution not walking in accordance with the perfection it claims to possess? Doing so would require us to walk in willful ignorance instead of truth or even worse, to reshape truth in order to preserve the appearance of what isn't there....whitewashed tombs anyone? The hard part for many Catholics (and yes protestants too) to swallow is that IF the ORIGINAL "Catholic" church would have ONLY sought to embody the **explicit** teachings of Christ and walk exclusively in accordance with the NT, using the OT as context for interpreting the NT, then we'd all likely be Catholics today as the divergences between Protestants and Catholics wouldn't exist. We'd still have some sticking points but virtually every sticking point between us comes from doctrinal reinterpretations and accretions arising in the centuries following the lives of the Apostles not from the EXPLICIT teachings in scripture. Oh, and we haven't even scratched the surface....
"I thank GOD for Luther's (and others) boldness more and more" LOL, that's why he was angry that his ignorant movement lead to denying the basic doctrine of Christianity, the Trinity. "We'd still have some sticking points but virtually every sticking point between us comes from doctrinal reinterpretations and accretions arising in the centuries following the lives of the Apostles not from the EXPLICIT teachings in scripture." The questions begs, what is scripture? Should we trust the priests who as you mentioned "sin, idolatry, sorcery, wickedness, immorality" who wrote the scripture???
Hey Gavin, I've been watching for sometime now and I really appreciate you and your content. It's hard for me to even describe how much you've made an impact on me, even on a personal level, which is very cool! Not only do I appreciate your content, which is rich and edifying, but most of all I appreciate your character, which is such a refreshment in a vast desert of triumphalism and contention. I see Jesus' gentle and lowly heart in you so clearly, and what other metric of success in this life is as important than to be like our Savior? With that said, I don't mean to idolize you. I just want to encourage you and praise God for the ways he is using you and your content in mightier ways than you'll ever know! And with all of that out of the way, I do have a question which I'm curious to hear your response. Though I'm certainly a proponent of striving towards ecumenical peace and unity, not getting too concerned with issues that can disrupt fellowship if said issues are avoidable or tertiary in the order of theological triage, I've been stumped on the issue of referring to RC leaders as "father" when Jesus seems to specifically condemn this in Matthew 23:1-12. My concern is that I don't wish to dishonor the leaders of the church, but I also think that Jesus is quite clear. (Just so you know, I am a Protestant and my concern is more stemmed out of my interactions with Catholics and how best to go about it in peace and unity given my conviction.) I also sometimes even get uneasy when I see Protestant leaders make the point to include 'Pastor', 'Chaplain', 'Preacher', etc. in front of their names. I have no issue with that in itself, for those are simply the title of their offices, but I feel like I often sense a level of pride that comes along those leaders identifying themselves. Personally I feel like we should hold on to those titles loosely and with humility, recognizing that though these offices are "noble tasks" (1 Tim. 3:1) our identity is first and foremost servants of the Living God. Just as Paul often identifies himself as a servant of Christ or prisoner of Christ though he is one of the apostles of Jesus. (Not to mention, just that the Bible seems to describe the church offices as ultimately pretty humble vocations from the world's perspective). Obviously, the main issue is the heart, and I think that's clear from Matthew 23. And I don't mean to say that all Catholics are prideful in their heart to use the language of "father" towards their leaders, but I feel like some titles (including "father") are unwarranted (meaning there are no offices attached to them) from Scripture and thus add no value to include them in our orthopraxy. In fact they only seem to be a breading ground for the pride and superiority that Jesus critiques in the passage. So why should we use them, especially if Jesus specifically talks about it? What are your thoughts on all of this? I would love your feedback! Your brother in Christ, Judah.
1 Cor. 4:15 also has to be balanced w/ the scripture about call no man father. There seems to be a context of only honouring our Father in Heaven. So though I'm not Catholic, I don't have a problem calling a priest father. They take a vow of celibacy and don't have children of their own, so then their flock is their children. Some priests, like Father Altman take their flock children as very precious.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 Thanks for sharing this passage and your input! This further spikes my interest in the subject now! I think 1 Cor. 4:15 and the familial language that Paul uses towards his fellow believers (like when he calls Timothy his "true child in the faith") gives great credence to your point. And again, I think ultimately what God is concerned about with this issue is our hearts. But I guess still my concern is whether or not titles like these are more damaging than good in that they can create a breading ground for pride in the hearts of leaders and for confusion about who is the real leader of the church, which of course is Christ. For even when Paul does use this language I don't get the impression that he uses it as some sort of title but rather as a metaphoric and personal description of the nature of his relationship with these believers. I see no problem with that in itself and for any priest who sees their flock as their family. I bet that most of them truly view their position of "father" towards their flock in the same tender and intimate way that Paul did his. But I guess I'm wondering if there is some sort of danger to avoid when it crosses over to a more official title? And what about you and me or anyone else outside of the priest's flock? Maybe it makes sense for those inside his flock, but why should we refer to him as "father" if that is not the type of relationship we have with him? I also want to say that I think when it comes to any sort of title that is also reserved for God (like "father, teacher, leader, shepherd, etc.") we should tread very carefully. For He of course is our ultimate and true father, teacher, leader, shepherd, etc. So I think Christian leaders should be incredibly eager to jump out of that spotlight and do their best to shine that light on our Lord. I think this idea is consistent with Jesus' critique in Matthew 23 and also Paul's general attitude towards church leadership in his Epistles. For example, just one chapter before the passage you shared, Paul was making it clear that though the Corinthians were debating about which Christian leader they "belonged to" God was the one who is actually on top and in control of His Church. Those Christian leaders, including Paul, are nothing but His "servants." Not that true Christians would deny that God is our real leader, I just again think we should be cautious with our use of titles because of the effect that they can have. Now with that said, I do need to acknowledge that Matt. 23:9 says that we should call "no man your father on earth..." and yet I, like almost everyone else, refer to my biological father as "father" or "dad." I admit, this was a bit of a stumper, but I think my concern is still valid in that maybe this should call into question how Christian dads should rear their children? It might require us going against the grain of culture a little bit, but based on this passage shouldn't we make an effort to step out of the spotlight in a similar sense as our Christian leaders in order to magnify the fatherhood of God? Maybe that looks like teaching our kids (and us) to be more comfortable to refer to ourselves by our first names in an effort to help them see that their true and perfect father is God, and our relationship as father and child is really just a tangible metaphor that points to the real thing? Just a thought! I'm speculating and writing down the thoughts that are coming to me now as I think about these things. I also want to acknowledge the cultural and temporal differences of Paul's original audience and their concept of "father" compared to ours today. What can that further tell about what this commandment means and its relevancy towards us? Idk! Time for more study and engagement. :) Thanks again for your input!
@@judah7528 I'm glad that helped and I hope this helps too. To give a bit of context to who Jesus was addressing and why is likely key to Math. 23:9: Woes to Scribes and Pharisees …8But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth your father, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Christ.… Reading Math. 23 fully really sheds light that he was putting the scribes and pharisees in their place. It was about pride, as you've picked up on and it's an admonition against pride. It's odd that some people only pick up on "call no man father", because he also says call no one Rabbi/teacher/instructor, but he means for them see themselves as equals. They were doing everything to be seen of men and were prideful of their office. So that seems to be what Jesus is really addressing. That's why Paul is calling the good apostles fathers and then in Timothy of course, there's mention of teachers, evanglists, aposltles. It's not the titles or offices that are wrong, it's the spirit in which they are carried out.
Hi Gavin, could you do a video on why you think it’s ok to be a schismatic, or do you think you aren’t in schism from the 2000 year old Catholic Church? If going by sola scriptura the bible warns of schism. So there was one church in the west for nearly 1600 years, and this one has prevailed (on St Peter and his successors) from the beginning until now. This is not an attack on Protestantism but something potentially contentious that I’ve never heard a Protestant address. Thanks.
The Council of Hieria in 754 was called by the inconoclast emperor Constantine V. It supported that emperor's position. It is not considered valid by Catholic and Orthodox churches or by any pre-reformation church, because none of the five major patriarchs were represented so it's rulings were not considered the voice of the entire church. As such, it was considered inferior to a valid ecumenical council. Its rulings were later overturned by the ecumenical Council of Nicaea ll. Protestants like to cite it because it was iconoclast.
I prefer the Council of Frankfurt. Nicaea 2 did not have representation of all the major patriarchs either, and was also dominated by imperial pressure.
@@TruthUnites So you do not accept that the major patriarchates were represented. Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem had their representatives, so which ones do you consider absent? There were quarters that refused its rulings as you mentioned but the East and West ultimately came around. Even some Protestant denominations likewise accepted the council if I'm not mistaken. Certainly had much broader representation than Frankfurt which is basically a Frankish council, wouldn't you say so...
Another thing that strikes me, is that in the first few chapters of the book of Revelation, Jesus critiques the seven churches, a number of whom have fallen into errors of various types. The "erring' church is scriptural. Even all through the Old Testament it is notable how often God says that "a remnant will remain"...and this is in reference to His chosen people and their divinely ordained priesthood. By the time Jesus appears on the scene, they are corrupt and act as His enemies. For Jesus's promise to be true for the church, all that is required (it seems to me) is that there be believers in the world, even a small remnant, who believe truly. So the idea that the magisterium is somehow infallible falls flat for me, even from very basic reading of the Bible. James saying that we all stumble in many ways, and that teachers will be judged more strictly, also suggests that teachers in the true church are capable of screwing up. Thank you for your wonderful work in combating blinkered theological assumptions. We can all benefit from a careful examination of the facts!
I think if the church was supposed to not commit errors then a lot of content of the epistles wouldn't exist
if you believe that of the epistles, then you should believe the same of the gospels that harmonize with them perfectly, as well as the OT -- the whole of the Scriptures falls with that one statement, you're saying you essentially believe in a different gospel from a different god. good luck with that.
@@Taterstiltskin He's just saying that if the church was so protected from errors, then the epistles, most of which are correcting congregations, are strange. He's not denying the epistles.
@@TaterstiltskinHe's saying that nearly all of the Epistles serve to correct the church in significant error. And he's correct.
Big brain comment
Great point!
My faith was shaken when first looking into orthodoxy. It was so hard to find a convicted protestant source to all the questions, but your videos have been a gold mine and given me so much clarity!
I'm still looking into both. Has any thing in particular closed the door to Orthodoxy for you?
@@MikesMusicMethod paganism
I left the Orthodox Church because of its exclusivist claims. I believe they're committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Watch the interviews with Joshua Schooping. My experience in the Orthodox Church was very similar to his. I left for the same reasons.
@@user-en6zl1cm5r please elaborate. I couldn't name a single person at the Greek Orthodox Church i attend who makes judgment on anyone outside the Church. I'm curious as to where you got this feeling and sentiment from? Was it a congregation you attended? People arguing on the internet? Or?
And do you mean an "exclusivist" claim in the sense that the Orthodox think they're the "true" church? If that's the case though then every church is exclusivist. The only reason anyone breaks from one church and goes to another is because they think they have more of the Truth of Christ.
@@MikesMusicMethod The Orthodox Church teaches that people outside the OC aren't Christians.
I know this from priests, born Orthodox, converts. It's well known. The Orthodox don't like to advertise this because they're trying to attract new blood to the sect.
As someone who for a while, (though no longer) was drawn by the RC church, I appreciate your breakdown that gives a nuanced balanced view of Chruch History. You give a solid, reasonable refutation to often broad brushstroke answers, which if dug into are not as clean cut as some say they are. I enjoy and commend your academically informed and charitable approach. Thank you for the time and energy you put into these videos. I genuinely think they glorify God and His desire for how his children should interact with issues and dialogue with one another.
"In the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same was also head-that is also why he is called Cepheus ['Rock']-of all the apostles, the one chair in which unity is maintained by all. Neither do the apostles proceed individually on their own, and anyone who would [presume to] set up another chair in opposition to that single chair would, by that very fact, be a schismatic and a sinner... Recall, then, the origins of your chair, those of you who wish to claim for yourselves the title of Holy Church"
-The schism of the Donatists 2:2 (AD 367)
Thank you for the kind words, Christopher, I am very grateful to hear you think my videos bring glory to God. May it be!
Alex Augustine changed his view on church being found on Peter
Go listen to Jay Dyer’s refutation of the papacy parts one and two. Incredibly solid academically. Lengthy, but well worth spending the time.
@jesse77able
Would you mind to share the link? Or can I find it in UA-cam? Many thanks!
Sooo glad you became a UA-camr! I don't have the time nor the energy to read volumes of books on many of the subjects you address. You are a great asset to the church. By church I mean the body of Christ. All those who are regenerate by The Holy Spirit and are citizens of The Kingdom of God. I agree with you that it is undeniable that the Spirit is at work in true believers of all denominations.
@Conquering Death It's quite obvious that plenty of atheists do good in the world. I don't understand your comment in relation to mine.
I adhere to a more Lutheran persuasion, but I have to admit your videos are incredibly interesting and helpful. God bless your ministry!
Glad you find them useful! I find much to admire in the Lutheran tradition.
Same here!
Same here 👍🏻
I just got your book on triage and really enjoyed it. The papacy, icons, and Mariology are 3 reasons I could not become Catholic; although I love my Catholic brothers and sisters. I believe this verse means the same as in the Old Testament. Satan cannot thwart God and God always saves a remnant of faithful believers. Though the Church strayed like Israel strayed, God rescued and preserves the faithful.
So glad you enjoyed the triage book!
Hey Tammy, do you see Mary as the new Eve?
@@flearhcp I could not become Catholic for the most of the same reasons as Tammy. I don't believe the doctrine about Mary being the new Eve. To believe that is part of the slippery slope that has her near to divine, devoid of original sin, living a sinless life (and only Christ is expressly said to have accomplished that), a perpetual virgin, and a co-redemptrix w/ Christ himself. I don't think NT scriptures support this, and digging for an OT type to try and support is thin at best.
Mariology is one of the most beatiful doctrines of the catholic church, you are missing so much, Mary is your mother, the full of grace, all she wants is take you closer to her son, we do not worship her, we recognize her an present our admiration to her. But i know is hard to acept Mariology, you have to go very deep in scriptures.
@@xaviertorres1685 And Church history.
Death wont stop the life in Christ. Who overcame death and is alive forever more.
I believe Augustines interpretation of the millennium played into the misapplication of this verse.
Excellent - looking at all sides. You definitely made me think. Thank you for the work you put in to getting the truth - it is appreciated...!
Always appreciate your content-honest & informative! 👍🏾
Exactly, in principle, "prevail" implies a long drawn out struggle, at the end of which, the subject is victorious.
Thanks again and again Gavin. You're doing a good job. I should know. I'm almost 70 and I've been following That Person for almost 50 years, and I know Him whom I have believed.
I love what you’re doing brother. God bless you. I’ve shared your work with many of my friends. I pray that more Protestants will benefit from these videos.
Thank you Dr. Ortlund. Your content is ever helpful. Such useful recourses which help us be grounded, and not blown hither and tither by every wind of doctrine!
I’m enjoying your videos. They give me lots to think over. I found you whilst researching a Church History assignment on Sola Scriptura as part of my Bachelor of Ministry.
Thank you from Australia.
glad they have been enjoyable!
What a straight to the point, helpful video. So glad I watched it.
Thanks for the excellent video Gavin! I benefit from your content a lot being a Protestante in a mostly Catholic country (Brazil). Let me suggest videos more related to the sacramental system, that would be nice.
Thank you 👍🏻
I am so grateful for the content you bring on your channel and especially how carefully you handle each topic. Your channel is truly an answer to my prayers.
I married a Protestant Christian 38 years ago and then 6 years ago he became Catholic. I was okay with this because I felt it was not my place to tell him how he should approach God. It has been very difficult because he wants to hash out all the differences and I did not. Now we have a way to look at things in a more logical and ecumenical way through your channel. Keep doing the work of God because it is a true blessing!🎉
Very well articulated Dr Ortlund.
It’s been interesting to observe this phenomenon in my conversations with others (most often Roman Catholics).
The deductive assumption of this phrase in relation to the proposed inerrancy of “the church” is deeply rooted in the question of interpretive authority.
Great video
Awesome video, Gavin! Very helpful.
This was very interesting, thank you for sharing. I need to read more about the church councils... I've lately been reimmersed in Anglicanism after finding a new church and feel convicted to remain Protestant.
Cool, I grew up Anglican and now I'm in non denominational.
It's not misused, it's true. The Church wasn't established by man in the 16th century. It was established in AD 30 by the Lord. Although it's true there is no earthly pope, everything else about protestantism is wrong. Orthodox Church is the true Church, St Athanisious was the first to identify the Canonical 27 NT books that everyone uses today
Wrong choice .... protestantism is heresy as you ignore Jesus's direction instruction to eat his body and drink His blood ( Holy Eucharist)
Why do you disobey Jesus?
Here is the proof:
Mt 26:26-27; Mk 14:22,24; Lk 22:19-20; 1 Cor 10:24-25 - “This is my Body…This is my Blood.”.....
It's in your bible but you have been brainwashed by your pastors who only want your tithes
Why do you ignore Jesus's
commandment ? Why ? It's there in the bible
Think for yourself instead of letting your pastor fool you .
Mt 26:26-27; Mk 14:22,24; Lk 22:19-20; 1 Cor 10:24-25 - “This is my Body…This is my Blood.”
Don't concern yourself with negative comments Marian.
@@Adam-ue2ig just a few more scoldings from strangers and we'll surely see the light...
This is very edifying! Thank you, brother. May you keep bringing glory to God through your work 🙏🏻✨
Great video as always Dr. Ortlund!
Wow, the breadth of your knowledge & wisdom is helpful & encouraging. I'm amazed & God is glorified. Bless you and your family, Dr. Ortlund.👍🙏
I found you through the Becket Cook site here. Thank you for going "deep" for all of us. In this day and age of "busy-ness" we can all fall back into forgetting scripture and its proper applications. Even as a church of Christ member we agree on so many things and as we study more, we UNITE more. Just as Paul told the Corinthians in chapter one , verse 10 "Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment". This is a COMMAND from Paul. The study of the early fathers and contrasts to scripture and all other areas keep me sharp. Thank you Gavin!!!!
Thank you, this was a helpful video Dr. Ortlund.
I’d really appreciated a more detailed video on the iconoclast controversy from you. As someone who does a lot of scholarly research into church history and biblical theology who is on a journey inside of Christianity to something new and different from when my own tradition started me I find your videos to bring things to my attention I may not have caught on to as the literature is vast. I find myself lead heavily to high church traditions on theological and historical grounds. What you said on the events related to iconoclasm put a lot of questions in my head I wanna seek answers to from the Eastern Orthodox side and perhaps the Anglicans as well. You only slightly covered this here but while I’m still on this journey and finding myself without the time to really dig hard into the iconoclasm part of church history at the moment seeing a video from you I feel would probably help me greatly in knowing where to go and some resources to look at when I do in addition to what I hear from the other side.
Thank you and blessings to you for the balanced approach you take it is very helpful even if I agree on some things and not others with you.
@Conquering Death I don't believe Iconoclasm is correct and this didn't neccicarly convince me that it is. The bigger issue for me is the question Gavin brings up related to councils and how we know which ones to follow from a empirical perspective.
Believe me I will be talking with an Orthodox Bishop and Priest on this topic and I might even contact some higher level theologians from that side of the discussion as well but the issue related to councils is something I want to approach from as many angles as i possibly can.
I do apprecaite your concern and love however in your comment thatnk you for it
Always so insightful and offering a deep perspective! Thank you. I love your integration of the tripartite promise.
Thank you for your diligent work
This is an excellent example of a scholar's role in the church, tackling tough subjects and making the academic scholarship accessible in a thought-provoking and charitable way. to the wider church.
Isn’t it ironic that right after this statement about the church victorious Peter makes an erroneous claim that Jesus would not be crucified? Jesus’ rebuke puts Peter in league with Satan. This illustrates your point, that the promise of the church triumphant doesn’t mean there won’t be some times of troubled teachings. It’s reassuring that Jesus is building his church. We certainly wouldn’t get it right
David, even more ironic, Jesus Christ did not take away the keys He gave to Peter alone. The keys are never mentioned in Matthew 18. Jesus Christ renamed Simon as Cephas,which is Aramaic for rock and gave Peter alone the command over all the flock of God and Jesus prayed for Peter alone to strengthen his brethren! The same Church authority in Peter the rock and sole key holder, who stood up and put an end to all the debating at the council of Jerusalem Regarding circumcision, since SCRIPTURE ALONE COULD NOT, as Peter authoritatively ruled that circumcision of the Flesh was no longer, even though Holy Scripture said that it was. ( Genesis 17:12). Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink and His Church built on Peter the rock
@@matthewbroderick6287 funny how RC always try’s using Peter to prove that the Pope has supreme infallible authority. Especially since before the schism the Church didn’t view it this way. Maybe in Rome they did, because that was their bishop of the Patriarch, but the majority of the Church never seen it this way and the Church is not made up of some peoples quotes, but what has been believed everywhere at all times by all Christians. All the other Patriarchs agreed that the Pope did not have supreme infallible authority. The one in Rome, went off on their own hungry for power and influenced through power in the west. The Pope is not Peter, so please stop using Peter to try and prove the Papacy. The Papacy has literally been used to divide the Church many times, to the point of 45000 Protestant denominations. They schismed the Church, the Orthodox Church in 1054 by proclaiming supreme power and authority, then caused all sorts of blasphemy with selling of indulgence, and only 500 years later their actions created another schism with horrible consequences. Because they decided to change their intellectual theology of Plato, by Augustine to Thomas’s Aristotle. Then now the Papacy prays with Pagans and teaches others to do so as well and is creating another schism with Traditionalist SSPX. Nothing but division and corruption has come from the RC by their pride and hunger for power and control.
@@orthodoxparadigm🫶🏼
@@matthewbroderick6287 other guys comment is the truth
@WORLD-MINISTRY mine is actually the Truth! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink!
I would love to see a video on the "pillar and foundation of truth" verse...
As a former Dutch Calvinist and a deacon candidate in Byzantine Catholic, I am glad for this irenic response. I agree that the language of The Church Lapsed has been abused by many Orthodox and Catholics. I think the question can be framed differently. When can we say objectively that the Church significantly has been corrupted? For an example during the lifetime of the Apostles we found many heresies yet the Church survived. But by the time we are at Ephesus the Council was closed with an Akathist to Theotokos and at Chalcedon during the sessions the fathers went to St Euphemia's shrine. These need to be addressed. Unlike the usage of music or the wearing of sandals which are non theological, veneration of saints at ecumenical councils made their dogmatic announcement suspect of heresies. Would like to see you and Joshua Schooping together. God bless!
He most likely won’t answer you.
@Bb Dl yep and moreover he’s very dishonest and a master of half truths.
@@RedWolf5 can say that again. Playing with nauces at times does help
@YAJUN YUAN yes they did. I was asking for a follow up. Maybe better all three Gavin Ortlund, Joshua Schooping, and Matthew Joyner. As an Irenic Catholic, I would like to hear how they address these so called anomalies in the Early Church. Like how can they accept Ephesus when the Council was closed with an Akathist to Theotokos and how can they accept Chalcedon when during the session the fathers venerated St Euphemia's shrine at Chalcedon? These anomalies need to be addressed by Protestants. Privately I had a correspondence with one of them and basically Protestants do not accept any ecumenical councils as Catholics or Eastern Orthodox do but rather selectively as long as it aligns with Scripture. This is why Protestants don't accept canons from the First Nicaea on monastic celibacy and hierarchic structure in the Church. When I was a Dutch Calvinist that's how I accept all six ecumenical councils. This basically argues that around the fourth century the Church has lapsed at least partially if not totally. Because this is systemic and everywhere. We can't find a Protestant church in the first millennium.
@@bbdl2147 If so many low-hanging fruits is so easily debated and refuted, why bother with the high-hanging fruit?
Great articulation Dr. Ortlund. Taking away one anachronism at a time. Btw, your facial expressions on these videos crack me up.
Excellent explanation. Love the content. Thank you.
"See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid."
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans Chapter 8 -- circa 110 A.D
Thank you so much for your videos. You have been an answer to so many prayers 😊
Thanks for that amazing video, and I loved you mentioned council of Frankfurt, I've read about it and Christians in North Western Europe were definitely more close to the reformation than to the counter reformation
This was a helpful and encouraging video to me.
Great stuff!! Really helps a Protestant like me that have felt almost outside of the faith because of the claims of the orthodox. It concerned me to think I should take my focus off of Christ and place it in Eastern Church. I can’t square that with hundreds of verses
@Conquering Death Protestants wouldn't deny that. They simply argue that the Bishops, sitting on the seat of Peter and the Apostles, are not magically caused to become infallible the moment some arbitrary "ecumenical" volume of them meet together.
Precisely! I can only share my 20 years in EO, but your concern is exactly what happened to me. One becomes so totally immersed in reading the lives of the saints, the liturgical texts, the prayerbook with it's dozens of negative affirmations, and the hundreds of Icons begging for your gaze, that the simple promises of the Bible fade into the background. The rituals become your salvation, which are always slipping away into the future, while you anticipate the next sacramental treatment! You are never able to locate forgiveness, because its a moving target that ends up at the Demoniac Tollhouses after bodily death, and if you escape the DT, you face the Last Judgment. An abysmal hope to be sure! The Apostle Paul's warning about being seduced from the simplicity of Christ becomes a reality. Christ settled the sin issue once and for all! Eastern Orthodoxy does not understand this!
The Eastern Orthodox Church is the body of Christ. To focus on Christ, will lead you toward Orthodoxy
@@courtneykees21. I’ve researched EO because I know so many young people who have converted (including my SIL). The beautiful reverence, claims of historicity & intentionality draws them, I think. However, when I studied some of the distinctive doctrines (icons, Mariology, understanding of the Gospel, etc) in comparison to the Scriptures. They not only don’t stand up, but consistently draw the eye away from the finished work of Christ (which the book of Hebrews goes into extensively).
@@bethl The EO put the Bible together, everything stands up to the Scriptures.
This is great! I teach like this, and on subjects like this a lot, but I'm not a scholar. I have read the fathers up to Cyprian, read the writing at and surrounding Nicea, written a book on the Council of Nicea, and my skill is scouring such things so those that don't can understand them. You seem to be doing the same thing, but your knowledge is a lot wider than mine. I'll be watching some of your videos for research, and especially for finding sources to read. Very impressed. Thank you. (When I use you as a source, I'll give you a link for whatever that is worth.)
Glad to be connected, hope the vids are useful!
I'm at the beginning. But WE are assaulting Hell, and those gates of Hell WILL FALL. We are on the offensive!!
Very helpful!
Gavin, let me first say you are an absolute blessing! As someone who has been discerning Catholicism for a while, your work has been a serious roadblock in that journey. I mean that in the best way possible. LOL. I just love your irenic approach and it's a shame there aren't many like you in the Protestant world who are so well-read and can give as compelling of a case for Protestantism as you have. You've given me so much to think about and have made me question if Catholicism is really where God is leading me. Keep up the good work.
I do have a couple questions:
1. Will you be doing any more debates with Catholics again in the near future? Your debate with Suan Sonna was excellent.
2. What would be your response to the Catholic claim that Sola Scriptura leads to doctrinal anarchy and that we need an infallible magisterium to interpret it?
Thank you so much! 1. Yes. 2. Will do a video on that sometime
Thanks Dr. Ortlund
Thanks for your insight
Great video!
This is great stuff, thank you!
Thank you for this video. It gives me something to help share with my Roman Catholic friends who often do use this verse out of context.
Thank you for putting this information out. It's brilliant.
The Catholic argument might be, "Yes, but it's BOTH AND. It's both Death and False Doctrine." Their exegesis seems very inconsistent sometimes.
I enjoy the scholarship!
Doesn’t the visual imagery conjured up by this verse imply that the Church is the aggressor here? In other words, it’s not that hell is attacking the Church and the promise is that the Church will endure and overcome the onslaught. Instead, it is the Church that is leading the onslaught and the gates of hell will not prevail. Seen this way I don’t see how this verse can be offered as an apologetic for preservation of doctrinal integrity through all of history.
Yeah I’ve thought that too about the gates of hell. This verse teaches that the church is on the advance and not about freedom from error
The way I've always read it (even before I became interested in apologetics) was that the phrase "the gates" was a synecdoche (referring to the whole by a part).
In this instance, the gates are an emblem of the city. Sort of how for us the flag of a country represents the country. So if I said, "The Russian banner will not prevail against Ukraine", I am referring to the country of Russia as a whole. And when Jesus says, "the gates of Hades", He is referring to Hades itself and all of its power.
But that's just a difference which Bible nerds would debate. Even if one rejected that view of the phrase, it doesn't seem like a problem for the argument in question. Because if your army is offensively prevailing against the enemy gates, it sure as hell (no pun intended) isn't conquering you. Thus, saying that the Church will not fail to storm the gates of Hades includes the idea that evil will be wildly unsuccessful in its attempts to assail the Church.
I agree with Raj. Dr. Michael Heiser takes a close look at the Greek and suggests that a better modern translation of 'prevail against' is 'withstand'. He also takes a look at the immediate context of the passage and points out that Jesus and his disciples are standing in Caesarea Philippi, the location of the 'Gates of Hades', an ancient cave known at that time for the worship of false gods.
@@yvichenj333 ooh that's an interesting point! The cesarea/gate of hell bit.
This is also make sense to me.
Hey Gavin, I'm Not sure if you will read this comment, yet I hope you do because I like your work. I Suggest you Read Michael Heiser's book Reversing Hermon. In his book, he argues that the rock in Matthew is not peter, his confession, or Christ, yet actually mount Hermon. He also says that "The gates of hades shall not prevail against it" is a bad translation, and says it should be translated as "The gates of Hades will not be able to withstand it." This changes the meaning of the verse from defense to offense. The church isn't being attacked by hades, It is the one attacking Hades.
This is a good look into the arguments, even if I find it ultimately unconvincing.
I can't help but prefer Dr Heiser's view of removing the supplied word (against) leaving the possibility of translation open to being,
The gates of hell will not withstand* it.
JC Ryle's commentaries on the Gospels on the top shelf back there...
My understanding is that the meaning of 'prevail' has shifted from originally, 'withstand' to 'overcome'. The new meaning has the gates marching to overcome the church; the old meaning has the gates of death not being able to withstand the triumphant church--in the end, the church wins. Yeah! Whadayathink?
"...gates of hell will not prevail...." - means no teachings from hell can enter the church -
The true church will never succumb to pressures to conform to the secular world.
@@joekey8464. In light of all the warnings of error coming into the church in all the Epistles, your interpretation isn’t logical & presumes much.
@@bethl Error like what?
This is the only church that has zero tolerance for abrtn, no divorce, no remarriage, no artificial birth control, etc. It never succumbed from the intense pressure from the secular world to conform.
All other churches has given way and accepted them in various degrees into their church.
@@bethl This is the only church that has zero tolerance for abrt, no divorce, no remarriage, no artificial birth control, etc.
@@bethl The church never succumbed from the intense pressure from the secular world, (even from Catholics) to conform.
All other churches has given way and accepted them in various degrees into their church.
Amazing video Gavin! I've seen that argument from RC and EO based also on 1 Timothy 3:15. Would your response be any different?
Thanks! Yes, would have to do a separate video on that verse, though some of the principles would be similar, like the meaning of the word "church"
Gavin, I love you
Gavin is quite a threat to the Catholic Answers grift. It's amazing to have a Protestant explaining all this stuff.
I highly recommend checking out Michael Heiser’s take on this verse considering the significance of WHERE they are when Jesus says this and how Protestants and Catholics might be missing some of the messaging built into this verse by focusing on this Pope issue.
I think the teaching of Dr Heiser is the most coherent understanding of this passage. Caesarea Philippi is home to a location called The Gates of Hell and that's where He started His church as an attack against death
I appreciate these videos. By that I mean I despise them because they are challenging for me! Lol I’m jk I know it’s a good thing!
A few things I just thought (and who cares I’m no scholar lol) is obviously we are connecting this to RC doctrine. I know you had mentioned that you were only speaking to this one part of this verse and you’ve talked about it in other videos but Catholics would also turn to the other parts of the passage and draw different conclusions from those passages that lead to these beliefs such as “changing Simon’s name to Rock and then naming him the Rock upon which He’ll build the Church”, the “keys of the kingdom and the connection to the typology in the book of Isaiah” and cultural understandings of the role of “binding and loosing”.
Along with the comparisons of Jesus sending out the 70 or 72 being comparative to Moses establishing the 70 or 72 elders for the “ministerial” type priesthood. Then they would also appeal to several Church fathers as well.
I know you weren’t arguing against the whole thing and were only talking about the “gates of Hell prevailing against” and the definition of “Church”. I’m just saying in the way that they are defining things I think you almost have to include the whole argument to represent it fairly. Idk just my thought. Thank you for everything you do!
thanks for engaging the videos and wrestling with the content!
The Church is a living organism. Protestantism understands this best. Sometimes you gotta cut out the extra fat.
@Conquering Death Rather an organism that sees Christ as head not the Pope.
@@jesussaves2642 Christ is the head of the Church, not the Pope. This is basic Catholicism 101, my good sir.
@@prolelog Not always in practice.
@@jesussaves2642 that’s a non-argument. You could say that about any branch of Christianity. You need to front proof of your claim.
Yes this verse is drilled over and Over by Roman Catholic apologists. If the church is the Body of Christ (meaning all the born again believers whether they be Catholic, Protestant , Orthodox, Copic etc.) than no need exists to use the verse as an exclusive ecclesiastical authority bludgeoning tool. Howeve, that is not to completely discount a visible aspect of the church. Secondly, "the gates of hell shall not prevail" I take to be a doctrine of assurance of salvation verse. The church (meaning all the authentic believers) will prevail through Christ as the head of the church. This accords well with many other sayings of Jesus in the gospels such as "I give them (the church) eternal life and they shall never perish. All those that the Father gives to me will come to me and I will raise them up on the last day....My sheep (the church) hear my voice and they will follow me, they will not listen to the voice of a stranger (i.e the gates of hell (satan)shall not prevail against them...etc.
It cannot be honestly argued by anyone that really knows what the Bible says that God's Church consists of all believers when Jesus repeatedly warned that there would be about false converts using His name to deceive ppl. He even went so far as to say _many_ will be deceived.
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 The believers are the true believers...some fall away but they had no root and John says they went out from us BECAUSE they were NEVER really of us....so yes the believers are the church.
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 Phil 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began (A)a good work in you (B)will bring it to completion at (C)the day of Jesus Christ.
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 Jeremiah 32:40
I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me.
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 so yes, It can HONESTLY be argued by ANYONE that knows the bible.
Glory to God. I love all of you brothers regardless of traditions. Let us all pray that God puts us in the right place according to His will.
I heard a Roman Catholic bishop point this out on Pints with Aquinus recently. It means the Kingdom of God advances and the gates of Hades will not prevail but be overcome. It should encourage us. I think you are right that it gets misused to negate the possibility of any imperfect doctrine arising, but I still would find it strange if God did not retain a remnant of perfect doctrine throughout the first 3/4s of church history.
Also, even if it were true that none of the churches remained orthodox, the likelihood of attaining orthodoxy by way of the passage of protestant history and doctrinal development seems to be less and less likely but that's just my general instinct. I'm open to argument.
I find it so interesting that people are upset that the EO church has exclusivist doctrines, when literally our entire religion is one massive exclusivist claim.
Sometimes I watch your channel from devices I'm not signed into, alot of youtubers complain about viewers who dont subscribe, this could be a part of it.
Great video. I just came across your channel a couple of days ago and subscribed. I am curious if you have ever heard Dr Michael Heisers explanation for the gates of Hell and if so, what are your thoughts on that.
Glad to be connected! I have been told about it but need to read it Heiser's own words before making an evaluation. :)
@@TruthUnites it's a strong interpretation from Jesus 2nd temple period Biblical Judaism that says the Gates of Hell is the huge Rock in Caesarea Phillipi that is THIS ROCK ,not Peter and is what Peter is contrasted to.
The Large Cave is the Gates of Hell in this Pagan worship site of THIS ( huge) ROCK !
The verse where Christ also tells Peter to Get behind me Satan cannot be taken literally either! So if Peter is literally THIS ROCK he is also Satan in a verse down the page.
I don't see both as being literal and is a stronger interpretation than the polemic Protestant one against the RCC interpretation.
And he’s back!
“What does it mean?” According to whom? Who is to be trusted when it comes to understanding the Holy Scriptures, Councils, history itself? Should one trust in once own wit, some modern scholar? Shouldn’t the 2000 years old Church of the Seven council that had the letters written to, that compiled them along with the rest of the Holy Scriptures and made them “Bible” be tasked with this responsibility?
The Catholic Church has made so many doctrinal errors AND unbiblical/ extrabiblical additions for 2,000 years largely because it is powered by manmade sinful leaders. It is NOT to be trusted, up to the present time, but THE SCRIPTURES, JESUS & THE SPIRIT should be the focus & authority. Much shame on the hierarchy & behavior of RCC; we ALL are imperfect & sin.
Good exposition of this passage. I think there is a rich historical context within the region of where Jesus and his followers were when He made this powerful statement regarding the Church. It was a place where great evils of child sacrifice took place. It was allegorically known as the "Gates of Hell". In other words, not even the most evil thing you can imagine has power over me. Jesus is teaching, "Do you trust that no matter how evil things will get, I will never leave you or forsake you?" P-O-W-E-R-F-U-L
It means you don't have to worry, don't have to threaten, don't have to torture people to support the church. Jesus makes this guarantee, so that none of us shall worry about who is destroying the church, or if we are. Just follow you calling, in what ever faith you have. None of us believe it, so we get angry, talk ugly to different communities within the church, and without, as if we're afraid to loose it.
I always wondered how it came to be that the RC statement that Matthew 16:18 means that when the Pope speaks ex cathedra, that the Holy Spirit prevents the Pope from making doctrinal errors. I dont understand that.
Prevailing in the context of being a gate, means to remain shut. Obviously Jesus is saying that the church will finally stretch even through the realm of the dead in the final analysis. Ah, but that would be scandalous right? Everyone must have their punishment, no? No! Justice isn't actually punishment, but to bring to life, to bring to participation. That is the purpose of our creation. To do that work. Not to work in order for some reward, but to do those things, because that is what brings Joy.
Could Protestantism be an error? That’s mostly just my attempt at being provocative and jabbing a little for fun but I guess it’s maybe also a valid question? I guess as a Catholic I’ve never taken that to mean certain bishops/councils or that the Church never does anything wrong or can’t err. Nor do I really know any Catholics who don’t openly recognize the errors and abuses through church history. But I think we would affirm that “the Church” is a thing that Jesus instituted, gave authority to the apostles to operate, established a first among equals, and promised its perseverance through the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit. My concern is that “the church” being just the body of believers without any objective institutional teaching office “where the Buck stops” has led to a lot of believers believing in some version of themselves that they find support for in their reading of scripture rather than what the Church teaches across time and in proper context. This goes for Catholics just the same, don’t get me wrong, but I’d argue that we have an apparatus we can point to and say no, you’re wrong, whereas the Protestant (on my limited, biased view) can only say “no Scripture doesn’t say that.” But who’s view is actually authoritative if two people disagree on something. Just my thoughts. As always I adore your channel, it challenges me in the best ways.
Hello Mm,
If you would allow me, I'd like to address a few of your points:
"Could Protestantism be an error?": If seems you may be thinking of "Protestantism" in a (Roman) Catholic sense of singular, irreformable, entity. "Protestantism" was born out of a proposed need to reform, and such, could be said to be in a constant flux of reform. That being said, "Protestants" could acknowledge possible errors and the need to reform them at various points of church history. So to ask if "Protestantism" could be an error seems to ask if some irreformable entity is wrong, at this moment...which doesn't seem to represent the nature of "Protestantism".
I also think that people who do not identify as (Roman) Catholic, (Orthodox) Catholic, etc, can agree that Jesus instituted the "Chruch" with authority to operate and perservere through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The "Church" can be both "the body of believers" as well as an "objective institution". We just may disagree on the boundaries of said institution.
Regarding the apparatus you mention as your means of clarifying your understanding on matters of faith, allow me to ask you this:
How do you interpret what your apparatus says regarding these matters, and could you consider that you may use this apparatus as a backstop in the same manner people you may identify as "protestant" do the same thing with God's Word?
The abuses of the church are written off…
The abuses SND errors of Catholicism which continue to this present day, being presided over by sinful men.
@@susanburrows810 wait aren’t we all sinners? No abuses or sinners in Protestant churches, wow! Seem to have utterly missed the point of my comment. Good job.
Caesarea Philippi was located next to a gateway to the underworld (Pan’s Grotto).
Michael Heiser had an interesting and compelling interpretation of that passage in the category of divine geography.
I have a question. When the people of Israel were falling into idolatry over and over, was it just the people? Or were the priests and prophets and religious authorities leading the people into idolatry? Or did the religious leaders remain true?
It was widespread, but GOD always had a remnant.
There was never teaching saying it was ok, but the high priests would engage in it. Uriah under Ahaz participated in worship to pagan gods within the temple.
I'm not sure I quite agree with your interpretation, gates are defensive structures not offensive. This would mean that the church will plunder and win those who are held by the grasp of hades
Yes very epic
Gavin, can you do a video on Peter as first pope more in depth of Matthew 16 and eating the flesh.
In p252 of "Principles of Catholic Theology", Ratzinger actually uses the ecclesia term to sketch out how the idea of "office" came out of the term. He doesn't do it in relation to Matthew 16:18 specifically, but basically the whole form of the early church as ecclesia in ecclesiis.
Really great video, Gavin! As always!
I feel like this verse only works against Mormonism, who believe the church actually did go into full-blown apostasy and did skate off the rails.
That can be said about any Protestant sect
Dr. Ortlund, what reason do you think "church" refers to a local congregation or congregations in a city? I have often heard that "the Church at this city" is used to refer to local congregations, which is very different than just referring to that congregation as "a church". It would seem the former formulation fits better with the Catholic paradigm of the one hierarchical Church. Your thoughts?
@Conquering DeathI agree. This is one of many reasons I became Catholic.
I think that a nuanced view of Magisterial authority can be fit with some of your objections. Catholics will admit that members of the Church including bishops have taught error, but the Church has not fallen into error in the way Protestants suppose.
Lateran Council 1 Canon 21: We absolutely forbid priests, deacons, subdeacons, and monks to have concubines or to contract marriage.
Lateran Council 2 Canon 6: For since they should be and be called the temple of God, the vessel of the Lord, the abode of the Holy Spirit, it is *unbecoming* that they *indulge in marriage* and in *impurities.*
1 Timothy 4:1-3 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and *teachings of demons,* through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who *forbid marriage*
1 Corinthians 9:5 *Do we not have the right* to take along a believing wife, as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?
Canon 21 continued: We decree in accordance with the definitions of the sacred canons, that *marriages already contracted by such persons must be dissolved,* and that the persons be condemned to do penance.
Matthew 19:6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.
Innocent III, 1204 "We destine specially to this, that the material sword may be sanctioned to supply the defect of the spiritual sword, and you, besides the temporal glory which you will attain from so pious and praiseworthy a work, may obtain that pardon for sins, which we grant
as an indulgence for the remission of their sins, since we want those who faithfully shall have laboured against the heretics to rejoice in the same indulgence as we grant as an indulgence for those crossing the sea for the aid of the Holy Land."
Lateran Council 4 Canon 3: Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and *to the best of their ability to exterminate* (pro viribus exterminare studebunt) in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church.
_Ad extirpanda_ of Pope Innocent IV: We decree that the head of state [...] shall observe, both what is written herein, and other regulations and laws both ecclesiastical and civil, that are published against heretical wickedness. [...] No heretical man or woman may dwell, sojourn, or maintain a bare subsistence in the country, or any kind of jurisdiction or district belonging to it, whoever shall find the heretical man or woman shall boldly seize, with impunity, all his or their goods, and freely carry them off. [...] The head of state, or whatever ruler stands foremost in the public esteem, must cause the heretics who have been arrested in this manner to be taken to whatever jurisdiction the Diocesan, or his surrogate, is in, or whatever district, or city, or place the Diocesan bishop wishes to take them to. [...] *The head of state or ruler **_must force_** all the heretics whom he has in custody, provided he does so without killing them or breaking their arms or legs* to confess their errors and accuse other heretics whom they know.
Lateran Council 1 Canon 21: We absolutely forbid priests, deacons, subdeacons, and monks to have concubines or to contract marriage.
Lateran Council 2 Canon 6: For since they should be and be called the temple of God, the vessel of the Lord, the abode of the Holy Spirit, it is *unbecoming* that they *indulge in marriage* and in *impurities.*
1 Timothy 4:1-3 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and *teachings of demons,* through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who *forbid marriage*
1 Corinthians 9:5 *Do we not have the right* to take along a believing wife, as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?
Canon 21 continued: We decree in accordance with the definitions of the sacred canons, that *marriages already contracted by such persons must be dissolved,* and that the persons be condemned to do penance.
Matthew 19:6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.
Innocent III, 1204 "We destine specially to this, that the material sword may be sanctioned to supply the defect of the spiritual sword, and you, besides the temporal glory which you will attain from so pious and praiseworthy a work, may obtain that pardon for sins, which we grant
as an indulgence for the remission of their sins, since we want those who faithfully shall have laboured against the heretics to rejoice in the same indulgence as we grant as an indulgence for those crossing the sea for the aid of the Holy Land."
Lateran Council 4 Canon 3: Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and *to the best of their ability to exterminate* (pro viribus exterminare studebunt) in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church.
_Ad extirpanda_ of Pope Innocent IV: We decree that the head of state [...] shall observe, both what is written herein, and other regulations and laws both ecclesiastical and civil, that are published against heretical wickedness. [...] No heretical man or woman may dwell, sojourn, or maintain a bare subsistence in the country, or any kind of jurisdiction or district belonging to it, whoever shall find the heretical man or woman shall boldly seize, with impunity, all his or their goods, and freely carry them off. [...] The head of state, or whatever ruler stands foremost in the public esteem, must cause the heretics who have been arrested in this manner to be taken to whatever jurisdiction the Diocesan, or his surrogate, is in, or whatever district, or city, or place the Diocesan bishop wishes to take them to. [...] *The head of state or ruler **_must force_** all the heretics whom he has in custody, provided he does so without killing them or breaking their arms or legs* to confess their errors and accuse other heretics whom they know.
@@Mygoalwogel Isn't what you are doing is quote mining?
@@jeffreyrodrigoecheverria2613 No
@@Mygoalwogel actually yes, even if where not quote mining, still would not prove satanic Protestantism to be correct because you still have to deal with eastern Orthodox who have apostolic succession.
@@jeffreyrodrigoecheverria2613 Then why did you waste our time by asking?
Have you read on Heiser’s view on this?
Can you do a review of Michael Heiser’s view of what the “gates of hell” are?
Oh someone just commented this! Really interesting.
Origen homilies on Matthew 16:18
Every Sin- Every False Doctrine is a Gate of Hades:
But when we have understood how each of the sins through which there is a way to Hades is a gate of Hades, we shall apprehend that the soul, which has spot or wrinkle or any such thing, Ephesians 5:27 and because of wickedness is neither holy nor blameless, is neither a rock upon which Christ builds, nor a church, nor part of a church which Christ builds upon the rock. But if any one wishes to put us to shame in regard to these things because of the great majority of those of the church who are thought to believe, it must be said to him not only Many are called, but few chosen; Matthew 22:14 but also that which was said by the Saviour to those who come to Him, as it is recorded in Luke in these words, Strive to enter in by the narrow door, for many, I say unto you, shall seek to enter in through the narrow door and shall not be able; Luke 13:24 and also that which is written in the Gospel of Matthew thus, For narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leads unto life, and few be they that find it. Matthew 7:14 Now, if you attend to the saying, Many, I say unto you, shall seek to enter in and shall not be able, Luke 13:24 you will understand that this refers to those who boast that they are of the church, but live weakly and contrary to the word. Of those, then, who seek to enter in, those who are not able to enter will not be able to do so, because the gates of Hades prevail against them; but in the case of those against whom the gates of Hades will not prevail, those seeking to enter in will be strong, being able to do all things, in Christ Jesus, who strengthens them. Philippians 4:13 And in like manner each one of those who are the authors of any evil opinion has become the architect of a certain gate of Hades; but those who co-operate with the teaching of the architect of such things are servants and stewards, who are the bond-servants of the evil doctrine which goes to build up impiety. And though the gates of Hades are many and almost innumerable, no gate of Hades will prevail against the rock or against the church which Christ builds upon it. Notwithstanding, these gates have a certain power by which they gain the mastery over some who do not resist and strive against them; but they are overcome by others who, because they do not turn aside from Him who said, I am the door, John 10:9 have rased from their soul all the gates of Hades. And this also we must know that as the gates of cities have each their own names, in the same way the gates of Hades might be named after the species of sins; so that one gate of Hades is called fornication, through which fornicators go, and another denial, through which the deniers of God go down into Hades. And likewise already each of the heterodox and of those who have begotten any knowledge which is falsely so called, 1 Timothy 6:20 has built a gate of Hades- Marcion one gate, and Basilides another, and Valentinus another.
As you noted, no representatives from the five Patriarchates were present at the Council of Hieria even though there were a large number of bishops present. The council was later overturned by the Second Council of Nicea which had full representation of all the Patriarchates. Also, the Council of Frankfurt seems to have only concerned certain regions in the West for it had no Eastern representation and was never adopted as authoratative for the entire Church.
Thank you 🙏🏻
Yeah honestly, I have never once concluded that Matthew 16:18 meant that the church was protected from any doctrinal error. I always understood it to mean the church would stand the test of time, and always exist. Honestly this doesn't work for Catholicism because just look how divided Catholics are amongst themselves. The traditionalist condemn the liberals and sedevacantist, and sedevacantist condemn the traditionalist and liberals, and the liberals condemn the other two. Some love Francis, others cannot stand him, some think he isn't the real pope, and others think he's the antichrist. Francis is night and day opposite of his predecessor. But then even Vatican 2 is opposite of pre Vatican 2, even though some attempt to damage control it.
I thank GOD for Luther's (and others) boldness more and more... The more I study and learn, the more I realize how little I know and yet despite my ignorance, I do know that in communication it is imperative we seek to understand what the speaker meant and not read into it something what we wanted them to say.
The NT was written almost entirely by Jewish men during the 1st century AD. Jesus went first to minister to the house of Israel and spoke overwhelmingly to a JEWISH audience who mostly rejected him. The OT was written by Israelites and overwhelmingly deals with Israel. The law was given to the Israelites. The promise was given to the Israelites. The lens through which OT and NT passages SHOULD be interpreted is a 1st century AD lens and backwards, meaning that in order to understand the content, we need to the context and that is NOT a 3rd, 4th...or 21st century lens.
Not only this but in order to arrive at the doctrines of church infallibility, apostolic succession and papal infallibility, one has to read into verses ideas that are clearly NOT explicit and would be completely foreign to any 1st century Jew living in the region at the time. You have to fast forward a couple hundred years (an eternity in church years) to find the seeds of these doctrines even being sown. Yet holding to these accretions forces one to exclude ALL evidence to the contrary.
Peter was hardly infallible. He denied Christ, THREE TIMES. He had a major fallout with Paul (Galatians 2). He cut off the servant to the high priest's ear.... On one occasion he opposed Christ and was called "satan" (adversary). If you're trying to make a case for infallibility, Peter is a poor example, as are we all....
If the argument is that the "church" is infallible then you must omit the first few chapters of Revelation entirely. You'd also have to overlook Paul's letters to the churches addressing their REGULAR errors. We can't look to Paul as infallible as he considered himself chief among sinners. So if Peter is fallible, Paul is fallible and the 1st century churches are fallible then how does one arrive at the doctrine of either "church" or Apostle/Pope/Bishop being infallible? Logically, you cannot.
Moreover, there is ZERO OT precedent for it!!! The High Priest, the closest parallel one might have to a Pope was NOT infallible and had to become ritually clean REGULARLY in order to fulfill his role, which was only for a short duration. The Levitical priests were not infallible and regularly made mistakes. Israel regularly fell into sin, idolatry, sorcery, wickedness, immorality... Why then would anyone expect that under the new covenant that an "institution" would exhibit attributes for which there are no parallels in the OT and moreover, why would we overlook CLEAR examples of that institution not walking in accordance with the perfection it claims to possess? Doing so would require us to walk in willful ignorance instead of truth or even worse, to reshape truth in order to preserve the appearance of what isn't there....whitewashed tombs anyone?
The hard part for many Catholics (and yes protestants too) to swallow is that IF the ORIGINAL "Catholic" church would have ONLY sought to embody the **explicit** teachings of Christ and walk exclusively in accordance with the NT, using the OT as context for interpreting the NT, then we'd all likely be Catholics today as the divergences between Protestants and Catholics wouldn't exist. We'd still have some sticking points but virtually every sticking point between us comes from doctrinal reinterpretations and accretions arising in the centuries following the lives of the Apostles not from the EXPLICIT teachings in scripture.
Oh, and we haven't even scratched the surface....
"I thank GOD for Luther's (and others) boldness more and more" LOL, that's why he was angry that his ignorant movement lead to denying the basic doctrine of Christianity, the Trinity.
"We'd still have some sticking points but virtually every sticking point between us comes from doctrinal reinterpretations and accretions arising in the centuries following the lives of the Apostles not from the EXPLICIT teachings in scripture."
The questions begs, what is scripture? Should we trust the priests who as you mentioned "sin, idolatry, sorcery, wickedness, immorality" who wrote the scripture???
Well-said!
@@bethl yeah right
Hey Gavin, I've been watching for sometime now and I really appreciate you and your content. It's hard for me to even describe how much you've made an impact on me, even on a personal level, which is very cool! Not only do I appreciate your content, which is rich and edifying, but most of all I appreciate your character, which is such a refreshment in a vast desert of triumphalism and contention. I see Jesus' gentle and lowly heart in you so clearly, and what other metric of success in this life is as important than to be like our Savior? With that said, I don't mean to idolize you. I just want to encourage you and praise God for the ways he is using you and your content in mightier ways than you'll ever know!
And with all of that out of the way, I do have a question which I'm curious to hear your response. Though I'm certainly a proponent of striving towards ecumenical peace and unity, not getting too concerned with issues that can disrupt fellowship if said issues are avoidable or tertiary in the order of theological triage, I've been stumped on the issue of referring to RC leaders as "father" when Jesus seems to specifically condemn this in Matthew 23:1-12. My concern is that I don't wish to dishonor the leaders of the church, but I also think that Jesus is quite clear. (Just so you know, I am a Protestant and my concern is more stemmed out of my interactions with Catholics and how best to go about it in peace and unity given my conviction.) I also sometimes even get uneasy when I see Protestant leaders make the point to include 'Pastor', 'Chaplain', 'Preacher', etc. in front of their names. I have no issue with that in itself, for those are simply the title of their offices, but I feel like I often sense a level of pride that comes along those leaders identifying themselves. Personally I feel like we should hold on to those titles loosely and with humility, recognizing that though these offices are "noble tasks" (1 Tim. 3:1) our identity is first and foremost servants of the Living God. Just as Paul often identifies himself as a servant of Christ or prisoner of Christ though he is one of the apostles of Jesus. (Not to mention, just that the Bible seems to describe the church offices as ultimately pretty humble vocations from the world's perspective). Obviously, the main issue is the heart, and I think that's clear from Matthew 23. And I don't mean to say that all Catholics are prideful in their heart to use the language of "father" towards their leaders, but I feel like some titles (including "father") are unwarranted (meaning there are no offices attached to them) from Scripture and thus add no value to include them in our orthopraxy. In fact they only seem to be a breading ground for the pride and superiority that Jesus critiques in the passage. So why should we use them, especially if Jesus specifically talks about it? What are your thoughts on all of this? I would love your feedback!
Your brother in Christ, Judah.
thank you so much for the kind words, Judah! What an encouragement. I will try to address this when I can find the time! :)
1 Cor. 4:15 also has to be balanced w/ the scripture about call no man father. There seems to be a context of only honouring our Father in Heaven. So though I'm not Catholic, I don't have a problem calling a priest father. They take a vow of celibacy and don't have children of their own, so then their flock is their children. Some priests, like Father Altman take their flock children as very precious.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 Thanks for sharing this passage and your input! This further spikes my interest in the subject now! I think 1 Cor. 4:15 and the familial language that Paul uses towards his fellow believers (like when he calls Timothy his "true child in the faith") gives great credence to your point. And again, I think ultimately what God is concerned about with this issue is our hearts. But I guess still my concern is whether or not titles like these are more damaging than good in that they can create a breading ground for pride in the hearts of leaders and for confusion about who is the real leader of the church, which of course is Christ. For even when Paul does use this language I don't get the impression that he uses it as some sort of title but rather as a metaphoric and personal description of the nature of his relationship with these believers. I see no problem with that in itself and for any priest who sees their flock as their family. I bet that most of them truly view their position of "father" towards their flock in the same tender and intimate way that Paul did his. But I guess I'm wondering if there is some sort of danger to avoid when it crosses over to a more official title? And what about you and me or anyone else outside of the priest's flock? Maybe it makes sense for those inside his flock, but why should we refer to him as "father" if that is not the type of relationship we have with him? I also want to say that I think when it comes to any sort of title that is also reserved for God (like "father, teacher, leader, shepherd, etc.") we should tread very carefully. For He of course is our ultimate and true father, teacher, leader, shepherd, etc. So I think Christian leaders should be incredibly eager to jump out of that spotlight and do their best to shine that light on our Lord. I think this idea is consistent with Jesus' critique in Matthew 23 and also Paul's general attitude towards church leadership in his Epistles. For example, just one chapter before the passage you shared, Paul was making it clear that though the Corinthians were debating about which Christian leader they "belonged to" God was the one who is actually on top and in control of His Church. Those Christian leaders, including Paul, are nothing but His "servants." Not that true Christians would deny that God is our real leader, I just again think we should be cautious with our use of titles because of the effect that they can have. Now with that said, I do need to acknowledge that Matt. 23:9 says that we should call "no man your father on earth..." and yet I, like almost everyone else, refer to my biological father as "father" or "dad." I admit, this was a bit of a stumper, but I think my concern is still valid in that maybe this should call into question how Christian dads should rear their children? It might require us going against the grain of culture a little bit, but based on this passage shouldn't we make an effort to step out of the spotlight in a similar sense as our Christian leaders in order to magnify the fatherhood of God? Maybe that looks like teaching our kids (and us) to be more comfortable to refer to ourselves by our first names in an effort to help them see that their true and perfect father is God, and our relationship as father and child is really just a tangible metaphor that points to the real thing? Just a thought! I'm speculating and writing down the thoughts that are coming to me now as I think about these things. I also want to acknowledge the cultural and temporal differences of Paul's original audience and their concept of "father" compared to ours today. What can that further tell about what this commandment means and its relevancy towards us? Idk! Time for more study and engagement. :) Thanks again for your input!
@@judah7528 I'm glad that helped and I hope this helps too. To give a bit of context to who Jesus was addressing and why is likely key to Math. 23:9:
Woes to Scribes and Pharisees
…8But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth your father, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Christ.…
Reading Math. 23 fully really sheds light that he was putting the scribes and pharisees in their place. It was about pride, as you've picked up on and it's an admonition against pride. It's odd that some people only pick up on "call no man father", because he also says call no one Rabbi/teacher/instructor, but he means for them see themselves as equals. They were doing everything to be seen of men and were prideful of their office. So that seems to be what Jesus is really addressing. That's why Paul is calling the good apostles fathers and then in Timothy of course, there's mention of teachers, evanglists, aposltles. It's not the titles or offices that are wrong, it's the spirit in which they are carried out.
@@TruthUnites Thanks!
Hi Gavin, could you do a video on why you think it’s ok to be a schismatic, or do you think you aren’t in schism from the 2000 year old Catholic Church? If going by sola scriptura the bible warns of schism. So there was one church in the west for nearly 1600 years, and this one has prevailed (on St Peter and his successors) from the beginning until now.
This is not an attack on Protestantism but something potentially contentious that I’ve never heard a Protestant address. Thanks.
Michael Heiser offered a great take on the 1st century context of this verse..
Why does Gavin always look like he just smelled a fart in his thumbnails?
😂
The Council of Hieria in 754 was called by the inconoclast emperor Constantine V.
It supported that emperor's position.
It is not considered valid by Catholic and Orthodox churches or by any pre-reformation church, because none of the five major patriarchs were represented so it's rulings were not considered the voice of the entire church.
As such, it was considered inferior to a valid ecumenical council.
Its rulings were later overturned by the ecumenical Council of Nicaea ll.
Protestants like to cite it because it was iconoclast.
I prefer the Council of Frankfurt. Nicaea 2 did not have representation of all the major patriarchs either, and was also dominated by imperial pressure.
@@TruthUnites So you do not accept that the major patriarchates were represented.
Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem had their representatives, so which ones do you consider absent?
There were quarters that refused its rulings as you mentioned but the East and West ultimately came around. Even some Protestant denominations likewise accepted the council if I'm not mistaken.
Certainly had much broader representation than Frankfurt which is basically a Frankish council, wouldn't you say so...
@@AL_YZ I address this in my video on icon veneration.
@@TruthUnites I'll have a look. Cheers. 👍
Another thing that strikes me, is that in the first few chapters of the book of Revelation, Jesus critiques the seven churches, a number of whom have fallen into errors of various types. The "erring' church is scriptural. Even all through the Old Testament it is notable how often God says that "a remnant will remain"...and this is in reference to His chosen people and their divinely ordained priesthood. By the time Jesus appears on the scene, they are corrupt and act as His enemies. For Jesus's promise to be true for the church, all that is required (it seems to me) is that there be believers in the world, even a small remnant, who believe truly.
So the idea that the magisterium is somehow infallible falls flat for me, even from very basic reading of the Bible. James saying that we all stumble in many ways, and that teachers will be judged more strictly, also suggests that teachers in the true church are capable of screwing up. Thank you for your wonderful work in combating blinkered theological assumptions. We can all benefit from a careful examination of the facts!