How Slash Fiction Saved Star Trek (Ft. Mary Chieffo)
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- Опубліковано 2 лип 2020
- Slash fiction and fan fiction in general has always been a derided part of the fandom community. But without the pioneering efforts of many fan fiction and slash fiction writers, we wouldn’t have Star Trek or science fiction as we know it today! So let’s dive into the complex relationship between slash fiction and Star Trek.
Directed/Edited/Written by Jessie “Gender” Earl
FEATURING THE TALENTS OF
✔Council of Geeks, UA-camr - / councilofgeeks
✔Jarrah Hodge, Women at Warp podcast - / jarrahpenguin
✔Vi La Bianca, Secular Sexuality podcast - / @secularsexuality
✔Christy Powell, Secular Sexuality podcast - / @secularsexuality
✔TriAngulum Audio Studios, UA-camr - / @triangulumstudiosaudi...
✔Lore Reloaded, UA-camr - / @lorereloaded
✔Trek on the Tube, UA-camr - / @trekonthetube
✔Mary Chieffo, Star Trek Discovery - / marythechief
✔Jessica Lynn Verdi, EasyAllies - / jessicaverdi
✔Ketwolski, UA-camr - / @ketwolski
✔Steve Shives, UA-camr - / stevelikes2curse
✔Brie Beecher, UA-camr/Cosplayer - / @trekcentral
✔Hector Navarro, DC Daily - / hectorisfunny
FOOTAGE CREDITS
✔Star Trek: The Original Series ©ViacomCBS
✔Star Trek: The Next Generation ©ViacomCBS
✔Star Trek: The Animated Series ©ViacomCBS
✔Star Trek: The Motion Picture ©ViacomCBS
✔Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan ©ViacomCBS
✔Star Trek: Generations ©ViacomCBS
✔Star Trek (2009) ©ViacomCBS
✔Star Trek: Discovery ©ViacomCBS
✔Star Trek: Picard ©ViacomCBS
✔The Twilight Zone ©ViacomCBS
✔For the Love of Spock ©455 Films
✔Lost in Space ©Disney
✔Reading Rainbow ©WNED
✔Ballad of Bilbo Baggins ©Disney
FURTHER READINGS
✔Star Trek The Motion Picture Novelization by Gene Roddenberry
✔The Fifty-Year Mission: The Complete, Uncensored, Unauthorized Oral History of Star Trek by Edward Gross & Mark A. Altman
FEATURED FAN ART AND FICTIO
✔Devra Langsham
✔Sherna Comerford
✔Diana Merchent
✔Jennifer Guttridge
✔Joyce Yasner
✔Lemon.Aid
✔Lzi-jeevas
✔Barbara P. Gordon
✔Spockinalia
(I WAS UNABLE TO SOURCE ALL THE FAN ART CREDITS, IF YOU KNOW SOMEONE WHO WAS NOT CREDITED, PLEASE DM ME ON TWITTER AND I WILL MAKE SURE TO CREDIT THEM!)
MORE LINKS
✔ Patreon: / jessiegender
✔ PayPal: paypal.me/jessiegender
✔ Twitch: / jessiegender
✔ Instagram: / jessiegender
✔ Twitter: / jessiegender
✔ Facebook: / jessie.gender1 - Фільми й анімація
I hate how slash fiction gets dismissed as heterosexual women fetishizing gay men, first because most of the women that write these stories are not even heterosexual, secondly, there are gay men who write slash fiction too, and finally, a lot of this stories are made to explore ourselves, either sexually or not, and I think that K/S (and other gay and lesbian ships) come from a place of wanting representation rather than fetishizing gay men.
Plus when you plug systemic misogyny into the equation, you get something which is not comparable to men fetishising lesbians.
Suppose the individual in question is a 14 year old girl. She's curious about sexuality, but most of what society has drummed into her head is that sex is something girls aren't supposed to like, that if you have sex you will get pregnant and die, and that only male sexuality really matters anyway. Add to that the fact that in most properties there are overwhelmingly more male characters than female, and that where there are female characters their personalities rarely consist of much more than "this one is a girl", so all the interesting and compelling character dynamics are between male characters.
So sex she might envision participating in is intimidating and off-putting, and male characters she knows are attractive and have existing interactions with each other which can be extrapolated from. Reading/writing about two men having sex requires no consideration of what she, personally, would do, there's no need to worry about anyone getting pregnant(which is why I find mpreg such a bizarre idea - way to miss the point), and it's emotionally satisfying. Win all round, really.
@Shrödinger Kat I agree, there are some fetishists, but people tend to think that because some of them are, everyone is a fetishists.
Yeah I was gonna say that Im sure there was a decent share of K/S fic written by gay men who had to use a female pen name so they wouldn’t get harassed.
Yeah, I find the whole "oh no, they're fetishising gay men!" thing just weird as a gay man who reads and writes m|m slash fiction. Indeed, most of the "straight women" who wrote works I liked weren't straight. And, as pointed out earlier, you often can't really know for sure anything about the writer behind that pseud. If I want erotic fanfiction I don't really care why someone wrote it or what their gender is, as long as it's enjoyable. All I care about is how people treat others irl. If their fiction is a reflection of some not so great attitudes I guess it's not gonna be very good then... and I'll just drop it and go read something else 🤷 There's a lot of fanfiction out there that won't work for me for one reason or another or offends me in some way. It's free to exist without my blessing lol
Same here. As a bi guy who grew up spending a lot of time in fandom spaces and reading fanfic as a kid/teenager, most of the "heterosexual" girls I knew who wrote slash ended up coming out as LGBT themselves even if they thought they were straight and cis at the time. Not that it matters if they were straight and cis though as anyone can and should write whatever fics they want imo.
But yes, I think those comments were really dismissive and comparing het female fic writers to men who fetishize lesbians is an extremely haphazard, ridiculous and nuanceless take. Especially when it comes to something like early zines where there's so much love, organization and effort put in; it's almost insulting to compare something like that to something like an awful frat bro ostracizing a lesbian couple for his own gratification.
they could have just called it kock fiction
Yes missed opportunity
Djjddjjdjsjsjsjs
you are a menace
I used to wonder for so long why that wasn't the ship name
For what it's worth, at least I appreciate that the Rodenberry Footnote basically says that Kirk is bisexual and too horny to be with a Vulcan. The whole thing is still cowardly, but at least I can claim Kirk is canonically bi
Based interpretation
Now if you excuse me I'm going to look for that vintage space por... I mean fanfiction.
👍👍
It was an honor and a privilege to serve with this crew.
I watch you both--well done!
Easily recognisable voice of Nathaniel reading a passage that reminds me strongly of Gail Carrigers writing between Biffy and Lyall.
As a man, K/S was probably the biggest opener to me for my own sexuality. That relationship pretty much described my sexuality, in both its physicality and emotionality. A breath of fresh air from toxic masculinity. Something that helped me find who I am. I am *hella* glad it exists. It was absolutely pivotal for my life journey; I cannot emphasize this enough. It actually hurts when this gets dismissed by others of the gay community (perhaps this relates to aspects of socialization and experiences that differ from mine and I do recognize that), because I feel they are dismissing my identification along with it, and perhaps they don't realise this - this hurts, if anything, more than when straight people do the same. Being friends with fic writers and enthusiasts in person, knowing their intelligence, social awareness, goodwill and sincere celebration of diverse love, their work is nothing other than a gift to me. Where we still get so much hate, to be loved and celebrated, and our love to be loved in such a raw and reverential way is just so warming and affirming. So, thank you to all fanfic writers, including fandom grandmas and elder gays: thank you, in a way, for my life.
My view on remarks by PR staff/Gerrold/Fontana & co, (who have at points supposedly spoken 'on behalf of Roddenberry' and the creation as a whole), accusing fans of 'seeing what's not there' etc, is that writers' intent or personal wishes in terms of how they *want* people to see something, cannot, especially in terms of film and TV, state how we are meant to see the final result, in which actors and photographers and editors can and do lift words from a page in almost limitlessly different ways. Think of all those scenes of soft lighting and the lingering eye contact and smiles between Kirk and Spock, and the flirtatious intonation even in simple lines like 'and I do want to go back to the ship, captain' / 'of course Mr Spock'. I recall a remark from Fontana using the 'seeing what's not there' argument, which sounded uncomfortably similar to the gaslighting, homophobic dudebros, and frankly, if someone is telling me to ignore what's in front of me as if it’s some terrible thing, and disrespecting my identity that is reflected in what I see in that material, how am I to feel? It sounds like they don't really want me to exist. If I am thinking laterally, maybe at the time the anti-K/S statements were made by the folks at the studios, it might have been driven by either some manifestation of homophobia (rife then, and which even gay folks aren't wholly immune to) or to appease broadcasters where if it was too identified as gay content, the show's future might have been in jeopardy. Indeed, ironic since that it was its 'gayness', as this video shows, that saved it. Daniel Radcliffe presents the perfect response to the same situation of a creator letting down their audience in this way: "If these books taught you that love is the strongest force in the universe, capable of overcoming anything; if they taught you that strength is found in diversity, and that dogmatic ideas of pureness lead to the oppression of vulnerable groups; if you believe that a particular character is trans, nonbinary, or gender fluid, or that they are gay or bisexual; if you found anything in these stories that resonated with you and helped you at any time in your life - then that is between you and the book that you read, and it is sacred."
Love is the strongest force in the universe. That, right there, is the core of K/S. And, if they want to embrace that, Star Trek itself. Star Trek survives by its fans: in all but legality, this is something the fans have the greater part ownership of - they keep the fires burning. Fan output is a staggeringly large part of the Star Trek legend. I'm glad this video points out where the dismissal by certain 'official' Trek creatives kind of bites the hand that fed the franchise. Let alone dismissing the fans, the studios should be serving them; honouring them, because ultimately, as is clear on social media and creative sources, it’s the fans - and specifically, the still-thriving K/S following that is the core of its fandom, and those deeply-engaged people will fly the flag for life. The powers that be should be working harder to quash the ‘kirk drift’ myths that paint Kirk as the macho womanizer that he never was on screen, because it’s this false set of beliefs that causes people today to dismiss the original series. But the love story of Kirk and Spock is timeless and transcendental. This is what will keep love for the original series alive. It is, literally, one of the greatest love stories over told. That is, surely, something to claim and to celebrate.
And my final remark was to say that Roddenberry himself I have never heard dismiss K/S. That footnote is deliberately made ambiguous - it was the late 70s! Could Kirk have really given an explicit 'yes, Spock is my friend, brother and lover' in a book published back then? Judith Gran provides a full disambiguation: google search 'The Footnote: An Explication de Texte'. And not to forget where Roddenberry confirmed that physical love would be appropriate to Kirk and Spock's relationship: "we never suggested in the series... physical love between the two. But it's the... we certainly had the feeling that the affection was sufficient for that, if that were the particular style of the 23rd century." Shatner included this in his autobio in the late 70s.
Once again, thank you for this, thank you fic writers, thank you fans, for life and love. LLAP
I feel like the ‘statement‘ in the book really was Roddenberry spelling out his thoughts on the matter (mmm could be!) while including a ‘Kirk’ statement to appease both male fans embarrassed by the idea of the K/S pairing (straight or closeted) and probably William Shatner. Its easy to look back on it now and be critical of it but being gsy was still not much of an option back then. Its unfortunate for the slash fic writers to be overlooked but Gene saw them and I think he made his statement in part out of gratitude. Remember that being gay in Star Trekland wasn’t ok until 3 years ago with a 50yo franchise. If Roddenberry had lived longer I have no doubt he would have fought for gay characters a couple decades ago.
Network heads are also incredible chickenshit. Delenn on Babylon 5 was conceived in the pilot to be a man and the metamorphosis was to be him becoming a woman but yeah, chickenshits. Don’t want to alienate those manly men! 🤢
@@gateauxq4604 To please William Shatner? As in, by hinting at gayness, or providing plausible deniability? Looking at the content of the era and Shatner’s actual history over K/S, including his creation of the obviously sexually and gender-expressively fluid Kirk, Shatner I’d put bets on having *contributed* to this, if anything...have you ever seen the video of Shatner singing (not spoken word, singing-singing) ‘Keep It Gay’?? I recall an interview of the late 70s where he actually gave the most logical pronunciation of the word t’hy’la (he was joking around, but he clearly knew all about it), and he played with the interviewer on the Kirk/Spock being gay thing in just the way Roddenberry does. Sort of saying ‘YES!! They’re gay!! but actually no, don’t be silly lol; there’s no *explicit* evidence, lol (‘none in hand’ wink wink)’. The interviewer was like...o...k...As above, *he* was the one quoting that Kirk and Spock could have been lovers, in almost the same year; and that’s been his subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) stance for 50+ years, even ostensibly writing his own fic. Shatner literally created the un-straightness of Kirk through the spin he put on the content and role; it’s all pervasive and reads as deliberate. One of De Kelley’s bios remarks upon Shatner’s “habit of kissing men on the lips” during filming; on set of the last episode of the series, ‘Star Trek Lives!’ reports that he flubbed a line saying “Spock, it's always been you, you know it's always been you. Say you love me too”. They also nicknamed this ep ‘Captain Kirk: Space Queen’...Kirk going to kiss Spock and ‘please captain, not in front of the klingons’ is in the film HE wrote; and here’s one of my favourite irl con moments where he slams a dudebro and literally states “I love men” in the context of romance and the worship of beauty:
Guy whose name is 'Patrick James Tiberius Kirk': "I've always wanted to ask you... 1) Between the characters of James Bond and James Kirk who's better with the ladies, and ...if you had the choice of all of the Kirk girls in Star Trek canon, who would you want to be romantically involved with?"
William Shatner: "You seem..somewhat obsessed by the ladies. [audience laughs, he looks at them] I am too [jokingly]. No. It's a silly, it's a silly question. You know what, since you carry James Kirk's name - why'd you change - it's a stupid question actually, that's silly. I mean the girls, I don't even remember them, it's been so many years. They're beautiful, they were wonderful; I think a beautiful human being inside and out is something to be worshipped; I love beauty; I love men, women, I love beauty - and you, look at you; you're a handsome man; why don't you ask me a real question?”
I’ve only shot off on this massive tangent because folks are currently getting carried away with throwing Shatner under the bus and not seeming to know all the above, nor that it’s more than likely not even him on Twitter: literally Jason Isaacs said in an interview “Bill Shatner started to troll me online. I was misquoted about about Star Trek, and we got into this wild banter with each other. Then I met him and he seemed to have no knowledge of it at all. So I’m not sure he does his own Twitter feed, but I rather enjoy engaging with whoever online William Shatner is”…. I just hope folks, especially in our community, don’t dismiss all the affinity here in the course of lynching ‘Shatner’ such that we then lose Kirk even more to those dudebros trying to negate this aspect of the text and fandom.
@spaceftg I know these are 2 year old comments but I found your pov so interesting, especially about Shatner not being as bad as his "twitter" makes him out to be. I've tried looking up sources for a lot of what you wrote but I'm struggling to find them and was wondering if possible if you could direct me to where you learnt these things about Shatner, such as interviews, books, etc (specifically about his opinion on k/s). I would like to make a post on my blog about it but want to be able to include sources. Thankyou so much if you (or anyone who knows) see this. Much love from another trekkie~
@@queerbluefae4237 I'm trying to reply but when I check it posted, it keeps disappearing.
@@queerbluefae4237 Well, I have posted a reply, but it's apparently not visible publicly. I'll give it some time to appear or try again. I don't know why it's positng these short replies and not the main one.
I respect how slash fiction, and it's cousin BL, can make gay men uncomfortable. I've also known gay men, and lesbians who were into slash. And straight girls who were into femslash. A lot of femslash writers are ostensibly straight women. I also know how important the slash community is as a safe place for female sexuality to be explored. Sure some of it can get really toxic, but it serves a purpose beyond porn. I mean the porn is great, but having a whole world of romance and erotica that I mostly a part from the straight male gaze gives a lot of women room to learn about themselves and find their creative voice. Also, I love that I am among decades of good company as a woman Trekkie.
i am a trans man, and the whole discourse about "BL and slash is fetishesising gay men!" literally hit me in the head to realise that i myself is a gay man XD
Man, I love, and I mean absolutely love how big Star Trek's role was in fan fiction as we know it.
And vice versa!
There are quite a lot of scenes between Kirk and Spock in the Original that you can't miss as being blatant, the back rub scene what was that all about the way they would touch one another all the time and not flinch away from it not to mention the way Kirk would look at Spock with the sweetest of looks the kind of look only between the two of them would understand. I heard William Shatner say on being asked about Leonard Nimoy that he loved him so much that he would marry him if he could, can you imagine the fanzine lot would go mad!
"Dig it in there, Mr. Sp-" *notices he's actually across the room*
@@jimmybaldino5026Homegirl was trying to get in on it I swear
Well. In defense of the "straight woman" writing slash fiction between two men:
We can't help ourselves if most leads in stories are men, having complex and deep relationships, expressing love (although "platonic") and loyalty. And oftentimes the introduced female love interests is an underdeveloped blob of a character with her sole purpose to be just this; a love interests.
The chemistry between these men is oftentimes way more interesting to explore even romantically than the canon romance introduced in the story.
It is also a way to express and explore sexuality as a woman, since in this male dominated industry of TV and Cinema we don't get that perspective.
And *if* they dare to delve into some of the spicy heterosexual erotica written by women, it gets ridiculed and critiqued into oblivion. Like 50 Shades or 365 Days. Like just about *everything* geared towards girls or women.
Granted these are objectively speaking bad movies, especially from a technical standpoint. But to be honest, there wasn't even a real try to make the material better. And in the case of 50 Shades it was partially helmed by men. Again, somehow toning down a lot of the imagery depicting Grey in a sexual way appealing to the female gaze.
So yes. Slash fiction is for now the safest place to satisfy the need of something women can relate to. And yes sometimes that includes gay pairings.
Comparing this to the way lesbian porn for straight men exists is a long stretch. Since most of it's existence isn't simply "I like it because it's gay"
There aren't nearly that many homophobic women consuming gay slash than homophobic men jerking it to lesbian porn.
I know both exist. But I think that there are more of the latter.
Anyway I could talk about this for hours and a comment won't be enough to explore all of it.
I loved this video. Thank you for making and sharing it ❤️
Besides, in the same sentence he goes on about how women write slash fiction to explore emotional relationships, he compares that to lesbian porn. I'm slightly miffed right now, 'cause I wouldn't mind porn that actually pretends to be about real human beings with real emotions instead of bodies writhing about for the viewers pleasure. Isn't the only real problem with porn - aside from the absolutely outlandish expectations people can get - that it's all about the viewers perspective and therefor and thereby dehumanizes the people, especially the women portraited? (Not that it's any kinder to the walking d**ks who barely get their faces on the screen and are solely placeholders for the viewer.) So, if slash fiction is about thoughts, feelings, sensations, emotions and relationships, as in, everything human... What exactly is it that makes gay men so uncomfortable with it? Because really now, two girls making love, plausible and relatable as human beings in a caring relationship, be it on a screen or paper, well, anybody is free to feel with them and enjoy themselves as much as they want, from my point of view...
It's just somewhat unfair to compare lesbian porn with it's fetishizing of the female BODY with female-written slash with a way bigger interest in male emotions.
I really like your comment.
We want stories and characters with depth. But female characters are often cardboard. Or they become that as a show progresses and the plot is no longer well planned like in the first season.
Most romances also do that.
Enter fanfiction.
In some stories instead of Jane and Steve, you get John and Steve. But John is still Jane under a different name.
Then there are those gems where it really is John and Steve. And we notice that even if you try to change John back to Jane, the story still works but now... Jane is no longer cardboard.
People make such a big deal about fanfiction but few really comment a lot of porn out there.
Do I think fanfiction is porn? It can be. Even the super fluffy PG13 ones.
But unlike porn that usually bores me; fanfiction entertains me. It is way more than porn even when it is porn.
In other words, if you want satisfying relationships you need developed characters and the majority of media only develops male characters. Ergo gay couples are completely logical.
I'm glad that Virginia mentioned McCoy in the mix. For a long time ago I had befriended a family from Australia. Where they said "When watching Star Trek, put in the subplot, where Kirk and McCoy are a couple. But, Kirk had an ongoing affair with Spock". Keeping that statment in mind, that would explain McCoy's gruff demeanor and the tension between the McCoy and Spock. Never the less, it did make watching Star Trek even more interesting.
Damn, that's funny! I'm still partial to shipping Spock and McCoy because I like dysfunctional pairings and they already bicker like an old couple 😂
Lol what an interesting idea
Everyone knows that Geordie and Data were an item, that is with the exception of the brief fling Geordie had with Hugh, until Hugh had to leave.
*Geordi walks into the holodeck*
"Computer, activate program LaForge 47."
*a holographic Leah Brahms shimmers into view*
"Hi Georidi, what are we going to be working on today?"
*George grins in anticipation, his giddiness is hard to hide*
"Today, we're going to lovingly craft Holographic Data's delicious torso!"
I picked up a super old copy of one of the old star trek novels. It's called star trek ghost ship and holy holodeck the way Geordi DESCRIBES DATA... nobody can tell me they're not a thing. No way. Never
"Dicard" Holy shit I laughed out loud so much. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Seriously though, I kinda feel that it was a real shame they didn't make Kirk and Spock canonically a couple. I know there was no chance in hell of doing it at that time, but that ship makes so much sense.
So much of mlm slash IS about exploring those emotional relationships though. The whole reason female sexuality is not taken seriously is because it "emotional" or "sappy". I am not denying that this fetishism doesn't exist at all and I think critical conversations are necessary but I think it's damaging to perpetuate that slash writers are all straight women getting their rocks off. First a good majority of people writing aren't straight and/or cis and a lot that aren't women (or even in the binary at all) They span across every letter of the acronym. Secondly the only characters that really get any depth and meaningful relationships with others are male characters, even today, so of course people are going to connect more with the male characters. (There's barely two women in anything let alone anything with enough interaction for potential pairing) Thirdly it's a form of erotica free from the straight/cis male gaze and man that is so insanely refreshing and freeing to have the way you express your sexuality, your desires, your fantasies, etc taken seriously and catered too. And lastingly, and most importantly imo, slash is pretty much more about yourself than the characters. People use it as a way to explore things about themselves and express themselves. They see themselves in the characters and like to play make believe and fantasize. Also it's like a really fun way to practice writing. Like please tell me why people read 40,000 word slow-burns if they aren't interested in the emotional development.
All of this.
Yes! In the 1990s, one of my friends stood up at a slash convention in Goleta, CA and said: "I know we all like to pretend we're all straight, but I bet that more than 10% of us here are gay." And she was right. So many of the early Star Trek women fans (and later generations from the 1980s and 1990s) came out, entered into loving partnerships with other Star Trek women and married as soon as it became legal. So K/S and slash never was (and is) not written only for and by straight women...slash fandom history is more complex and wonderful and diverse ....just like the community itself.
"Slash is pretty much more about you than the characters" - YES. It may seem silly to some, but I've learned a lot about myself through reading and writing about my OTP. Everyone has their stuff to work through and it's surprising how therapeutic writing about two men being into each other can be, somehow. I may not be a woman but I do have a complicated relationship with romance and sex so it's been surprisingly enlightening.
THIS! I love exploring emotional romantic relationships in my writing, and when I’ve tried NSFW work I found it to be a lot less depthful because I couldn’t focus as much when writing while horny
i have always been on the team of "the roddenberry footnote CONFIRMS it rather than denies it" -- the vague wording definitely confirmed the couple more than anything
I'm in the process of writing an essay about how spirk or k/s was intentionally written and theres pretty good evidence that it was intentional. Rodenberry was required to play by the rules of the Hays code and NBC (Nichelle Nichols is super sure that NBC got Star Trek canceled purposefully because of its liberal sociopolitical messages in general btw) also in the documentary, "The Celluloid Closet", producers from the Hays Code time period confessed to sneaking in what gay they could at the time. If Rodenberry were to ever out and out say, "Yes, they're gay." ..well, they would have never been able to make that public to any degree. Since Rodenberry was still involved in the making of Star Trek after the Hays Code ended, I wouldn't be surprised if he still denied K/S if nothing for other than the simple fact that he knows his team (especially Shatner lol and the production companies) wouldn't approve or let him get away with it.. because up until like 1991, us gays were only ever approved to be in film if it depicted us either getting killed or being a villain. Even though the Hays code was no longer in effect, these things were still controlled and denied and edited. So not to say Rodenberry is Mr. GoodGuyDiversity...but there is just a lot going on within the restrictions at the time. But the subtext of the episodes and the movies & Rodenberrys strong existing interest in Greek mythology (even if he claims there were no intentional paralells..), how a diversity goal oriented man might respond to two men playing ego wars, plus other things Rodenberry has literally said lol, I strongly believe he did write them as gay. Now that might not of been the intention pre season 2, but I still think so. Once my essay is up, you all can read it on my tumblr "allonsyanklebiters" lol. Search my hashtags for the essay. It'll be up within a few weeks. ❤🧡💛💚💙💜
@@Shike93 i'm back to this video now that i'm working on an essay on this topic for pride month LOL. scripting now, and i'm definitely gonna cite jessie!
I'm grateful to the Trekkie fen who took me under their wings in the 1970s and 1980s, via fan-zines and pen pal lists. It was a long while before I met guys who were Trek fans, as the way I experienced OG Trek fandom had so many women in it.
Slash gave me a set of fascinating ways to examine interpersonal relationships, and space to write and read creatively.
You know what? That drawer fiction was incredibly well written. It conveyed the characters directly and i know you cut out shit, but what you did show is solid writing.
Jesus christ. The fanzine fanfiction it's. It's so recognizable. Nothing is original. We've been writing the same things over and over since the dawn of time. Jessie I'm scared.
I feel bad that ive never been able to enjoy star trek beyond the new movies. This is an amazing history though, and i respect the history of this shit a lot more now. i didnt know how far back it went, let alone how it affected online fanfiction works. its SPOOKY that old fanfictions are functionally identical to new ones. humans are just monkeys at typewriters updating the language of the times. it's beautiful.
As someone who came into Trek through Enterprise and cannot get into TOS as much as I tried, don't feel bad for enjoying what you enjoy. ♥️♥️♥️
kirk/spock were canonically in love. i will die on this hill forever.
You're correct and you should say it.
@@horseenthusiast1250 i am gonna say it - i'm working on my own video proving this, which is why i'm re-watching this now, so i can cite jessie and include some clips!
@@SAVYWRITESBOOKSdrop the link when
I'm heterosexual male and also identified with Spock: being an introvert into science, I identified with him trying to be beyond emotion (and we saw it didn't always happen)....in my GRE, I even scored 100% on the logic section. As far as the Kirk/Spock relationship....I think it was set pretty early: while Spock might have initial thought he was intellectually superior-in the first aired episode, Spock thinks he can easily beat Kirk in 3-D Chess....but then Kirks beats him in just a few moves (to much Spock's consternation).
I have never seen that footnote before. It really shows that Gene had an incredibly progressive view of sexual orientation for the time. Kirk's answer to being asked about attraction to Spock was not to dismiss the possibility, but just give his preference for femme. It seems to me that Gene was likely familiar with the work of Kinsey.
Slash was included in the first Trekkies. I was the only one who appeared on camera with my real name. And it's clear that the casts of the series are well aware of it and not negative. And it does influence the show writers. Slash has come quite a long way since the beginning.
Having seen that documentary, I remember you in it. Oh wow, never thought I’d end up seeing you here 😊 that’s pretty neat.
Delving into the fan culture of the 1970s? Awesome!
Data/Geordie lol "come on data I wanna run a few checks on your systems." Has a whole new meaning just before the "systems check" data says "I am fully functional"
every time I hear behind the scenes stories of star trek, I can't help but thing how awesome it would be to have a period drama about making star trek tos.
What I took away from this video: fanfiction has sounded the same for like 50 years.
Bilbo, Bilbo, Bilbo Baggins, bravest little Hobbit of them all!
This topic is my heart. I hope thia video breaks YT. In a good way. I am authentically excited to see LGBTQ culture discussed in a mainstream context. Represent for pride month! Such a great idea.
Mind Blown!!! I consider myself to be StarTrek Superfan but how the hell did I live seventy years without ever coming across this slash phenomena? I’m not offended in any way by it and would probably enjoyed consuming some of the fanfics had I known they existed.
K/S was the first fanfiction i had ever read (probably a bit too young..) and i found so much depth in it! I am still a frequent visitor of the 'Kirk/Spock Archive. I think the url is k/sarchive dot something. Its amazing. Alot of care put into it and you can tell just how old the fandom is!
This video was straight up amazing! Brilliantly done. Super informative. You guys really outdid yourselves. Its a wonderful synopsis of the fandom and the k/s scene within it.
I wish tumblr user spockslash was alive to see this.
F
She was an absolute legend. We miss you fandom grandma.
I was just thinking about her. I will send the video to her children. Have you read this lovely article written about her? www.csindy.com/coloradosprings/a-50-year-trekkie-bestows-star-trek-history-upon-the-next-generation-how-fandom-and-fanfiction-sparked-the-galaxys-most-controversial-romanc/Content?oid=14273176
Sorry, but who?
I'm not into fanfic, let alone slash - but that Spock/Kirk Closer fanvid is sexy as all get out.
In general, it's interesting to see how Paramount waxes and wanes around fan activity. As you document so well here, it was zines and fanfic that were a huge part of what made the show a phenomenon, kept interest up (so to speak) in the wilderness years between TOS and TAS, but by the late 70s they were cracking down on zine publishers, attempting to confiscate them at cons. While that died down quickly, 20 years later they were actively suing fan websites that used the TNG font or an LCARS design.
The crackdown on fan films recently has some small justification on account of Jon Peters financially exploiting Axanar, but one can certainly argue that the heavy-handedness of the new regulations they expect producers to adhere to follows the 70s and 90s precedent.
CBS has gone overboard recently. They've been sending C&D letters to people creating Star Trek starship interiors in Unreal Engine and the like. What's the purpose of that? What do they get out of it? It just makes CBS look petty and vindictive IMO.
@@Xondar11223344 I hadn't even heard about that, but it doesn't exactly surprise me
i LOST IT at the Reading Rainbow intro.
Gene Roddenberry had some serious issues (most of them involving women) and we all know it, but it never really made us question our faith in Star Trek. Maybe because we know it's not 100% him. Maybe Harry Potter needs some fresh voices on it. maybe JK needs to pass it on to other people.
Grrr j k rowling is such a bint... its like cas anvars stupidity looking like itd going to ruin the expanses future
@@faejones1922 I think Harry Potter is greater than she is. I just think it needs others to pick up its mantle like others have for Star Trek.
Gene was a old man, and probably grew up as and was taught sexism at an early age. Lets be honest history was only favourable for white straight males, but JK describe herself as PC for example, working in that Dumbledore was gay. Saying that, I think she should stick with what she knows. If its all white straight protagonists and antagonists, thats fine. Its her life's work, and she shouldn't have to change it to please some. It is a shame tho, would have loved to see a main black wizard when i was young.
@@aziizrocks A bad person can be a wonderful artist. It's one of God's little practical jokes.
@@trekjudas i know i know just im speachless at what a bitch she was in that weird non harry potter book i had the mismortune to come in contact with. Shes just toxic waste as far as im concerned from the second i even tried to look at it. Meh. Bint... nothing should go on forrrrever i like the expanse is going to have a clear end to the main dtory etc...
Theres no one doing the dave filloni treatment for potter...
Is it just me, or did the wording of the footnote sound like that while Kirk did prefer women, he did also have sexual relationships with men? His main objection to such a relationship with Spock seems to be that it'd mean they'd only be having sex once every 7 years. It is surprising though, that a show that has always been so progressive that it has taken so long for them to have an openly gay couple. There's been jokes and rumours about Sulu because George Takai is gay in real life, but Takai himself has stated that the character is straight. Although personally, I could see Sulu and Chekov as an old married couple at times, especially in Star Trek 5.
Oh yea Sulu and Chekov are definitely an old married couple, at least in my heart
The Roddenberry footnote kills me. When you’re reading the physical book it’s HALF OF THE PAGE LMAO
As one of the many volunteers working on the documenting Star Trek fandom and fanzine history on Fanlore and through the Media Fandom Oral History project...thank you!! It is wonderful to see our work being used so enthusiastically. When I first scanned 'A Fragment Out Of Time" and uploaded the woodcut art of Kirk and Spock to Fanlore, I was finally able to offer more proof in the argument that Diana Merchant did not intend her fic to be K/S. The art is what sealed the deal (for me). We will try to identify the other artwork you showcased and will also pass your video along to Devra Langsam and other Star Trek women who are still with us.
Please do! I want to make sure to credit any people whose wonderful artwork is out there. And OMG, I'm honestly honored that you would show this to Devra
Thanks for this great vid, I love slash fanfic, both reading and writing it. I think it serves a purpose because it's a great outlet for imagination and also because same-sex couples are historically not represented or very poorly represented in media, film, and tv. Being bisexual myself I am constantly frustrated by shows like Star Trek (which I love) never addressing the existence of LGBTQIA people. Deep Space 9 had the perfect opportunity to do that with Garak and Bashir, both actors thought it would be a great idea but the producers, etc nixed it. Now on Discovery, there is a gay couple but it took decades to come about. Slash fanfiction fills that gap and acknowledges that gay, lesbian, bisexual, pansexual, trans etc exist and can have loving romantic relationships. Fanfic writers can also flash out an episode that might have been poorly written, or may not have made sense, add a different view or nuance to a story, and also, as seen here, save a fandom. I know that fanfiction communities can become toxic and I have seen flame wars that have nearly destroyed certain forums and sites, but on the whole, it is a fun, close-knit community that is incredibly creative and inclusive.
I cannot wait for this video. This is a video I've wanted to make for many years and you beat me to it, lol -- i am so excited. but i'm also one of those tinfoil hats who believes kirk/spock is legitimately canon, so... either way i'm pumped.
I'd like to say congrats to Jessie for being brave to show us the gag of the items in their sock drawer.
OH MY
Proud to be a part of this massive undertaking of a video. Congrats on the great content!
This was such a fun watch. I can tell you all had a great time researching, writing, and filming this one. Thanks!
I really don't think it's fair to compare 1:1 straight men fetishizing lesbian sex to straight women fetishizing gay sex (and relationships).
I think women like this fiction because it allows them to create their own kind of "female gaze." These stories don't have the same sort of social baggage that comes inherently with a hetero relationship. They definitely have their own baggage, because of course they do, but it's not usually the kind of baggage that's traumatizing to women. Often they're a way for women to picture relationships without strict gender rolls, and male partners with more softened masculinity.
That's not to say it's never problematic. It is. Regularly. But it's just... not quite the same?
while i can mostly agree i do need to say that there are still very strict gender roles, they just are not divided under the under 'male and female' they are instead divided under 'top and bottom'. it's the same swill in a different cup
@@technopoptart, oh yes, I didn't mean to imply that there are never any gender rolls. But in most of the women-written MM I've read it tends to be a lot more fluid than you'd see in a typical het romance. (granted, my data set is biased, because that's what I look for in an MM)
Is it problematic for a straight male to fetishise lesbian sex? It's a way for them explore sex without the inherrant roles that come with cis hetro sex, like masculine and feminine. To enjoy femininity and sexuality without ideas of top/bottom or the pressures assosciated with the expectations of sexual dominance.
@@Jojo-pq7yn are you ok, you're typing like you're going to run out of letters.
No, I don't think that applies. Historical factors don't affect a person living today. Also historically men were affected by the patriarchy too. A man couldn't be submissive or feminine.
As a fan of Star Trek and a fandom history nerd, I'm very surprised how little I knew about this! Wonderful, entertaining, informative video! I propose we bring back the term "Drawer fiction"... I need a fun way to refer to all the stories that I haven't confidently shared online yet. 😂
I honestly have so much to thank for star trek. Fandom Culture is such a huge part of my life and to think that this is where it started is so amazing to me.
I knew Star Trek had the first slash fiction (or the first widely recognised slash fiction anyway), but I didn't realise that it had such a massive impact
I kinda want to read your J/7 fanfic.
Thank you for this. An aspect of Trek history that most people don't know about. I was aware that Kirk/Spock but not how instrumental it was to the success of the franchise. Qapla!
Oh GOD! The background music and musical interludes made the thing about 300% funnier than it already was :D awesome episode! Incredible... to think that slash FanFiction ended up saving such a huge franchise... Some fandoms truly never die or even continue to expand after many, many years, thanks to dedicated FanFiction authors (or other enthusiastic die-hard fans). Ahhhh and how many times have I turned to FanFiction to work through my feelings of disappointment when a particular movie or series didn’t end the way I wanted it to... or simply... ended.
I really love these long-form deep dives and collabs 😍
29:25 Ooof Damn Kirk there's some sizzle to that burn -
This was really an amazing video...no a whole EXPERIENCE! Loved it!!
I liked this for the thumbnail 😂
Fantastic collab video
I rewatched and gotta double comment! What a learning experience! I love this video.
I think it’s just your best. Jessie, production-wise.
Awesome to see you working with Vi La Bianca! Great episode, thank you
Wonderful video, Jessie, so well done! It brought back a lot of fond memories for me, since I bought Spockinalia when it was first published (not to date myself or anything!). Kudos to all your collaborators, this was truly an epic production!
Well that was fabulous. And how cool to have all these UA-camrs in one video that I didn’t even know were connected until now ❤️
Slash fiction is also just loads of fun 😎
Okay. That Reading Rainbow gag had me laughing my currently bedridden butt off. I needed that, Jessie. Speaking of fanfiction, I wish I could find my old 80s cartoon fanfic. Had a thing for Kimber/Stormer from Jem.
This was amazing, so glad to be a part of such a wonderful production
This turned out so amazing! No link to your Janeway/Seven piece? I love that you included that they didnt totally embrace the slash. That interests me a lot. I've often thought considering that Xena went off the air at the height of its popularity, Voyager really could have been propelled to ratings greatness if Kate Mulgrew had not worked to prevent it. I know shes a person with her reasons but it's hard not to shake your head at that. Clearly some friction cant fully stop cultural momentum. If LGBTQ has any succinct message, it's that love cant be stopped. Love gone love.
I always had a 'head canon' for the whole '7 Year Cycle" thing. Its not canon, of course, but it somehow makes more sense to me than believing that a humanoid species goes into a 'Mating Period' like some animals.
In my canon, the 7 Year Cycle is not truly a biological thing. When the Vulcans began to suppress their emotions, it had an unfortunate side effect: It also lessened the emotion of simple Lust, which led to a fall in population.
So Vulcan elders decided to implement a plan: At birth each child would be implanted with a strong compulsion to seek out a mate once every 7 years after becoming 'of age', thus insuring their population remained steady (and for those who can't find a mate during this time.....well, Frak Them! ^_^)
On the fan shipping of Seven and Janeway: If I were a fan of this pairing, I would probably be kind of pissed off at Seven's appearance in "Picard". As I understand it (don't have All Access myself, but I saw reviews of it), on the very last episode they show Seven flirting with another female character, and this is supposed to signify that she is gay.
If the writers were willing to establish her as gay, they why didn't they do so in Voyager? She had a strong relationship with Janeway, it could have been shown that this was a budding romantic relationship. It didn't have to be reciprocated, of course. It probably would have been a good story if Janeway helped her deal with her sexuality, something she never had need to explore as a 'genderless' Borg Drone.
After the Rings of Soshern excerpt, i decided to give it a read since it sounded well written, showing both my age and naivete.
I'm writing this after a good hour of research, which, granted, isn't much, but it's usually more than sufficient to even find some unorthodox ways to get my hands on the pieces of media i want to consume. But nothing. All i found is articles about how impossible it is to find and how most copies have been destroyed, which is actually very sad and not just because i was looking forward to reading it.
I'm glad that you were able to find and preserve such a massively important piece of fan-made literature!
This video-essay was excellent and funny, i'm gonna settle in with some snacks and binge on your other videos now, right after i click on that subscribe button.
Hi Luna! I actually found a copy!!! You can read "Ring of Soshern" and many other entries in "Alien Brothers," a 1987 fanzine in this PDF: www.dropbox.com/s/marj7qs3apzb572/Alien_Brothers_.pdf?dl=0
It was uploaded by princenimoy AKA Rosamund M. You can read about her journey to College Station, TX where she was able to take pictures of a University's copy! princenimoy.tumblr.com/post/612218361831636992/princenimoy-princenimoy-princenimoy
@@imptv OH WOW.
I would lie if i said i didn't write this comment hoping someone might tell me where to find it, but i felt it was a pretty slim chance.
Thank you so much!!
@@LunaVee3435 I have been reading and writing fan fiction since the 1970's. Look on eBay under Star Trek slash fan fiction and you will find zines for sale.
tHIS IS SO FANTASTIC !!! the production in all your videos! the care and the funnnn
Star Trek TOS made me realize "things" about myself. So I really can't blame people for thinking there was something more between those two.
I started a marathon of your videos and I had to see this one. Beautifully explained! I love that you are willing to discuses these themes
I was surprised when I learned that the first fan vid was a coordinated kirk/spock slide show with two projectors. This should be good. (And Mary Chieffo??? I am looking forward to seeing what she has to say. She's one of us?)
This is so good. Bless the algorithm for suggesting you.
There's an old actually-published Trek NOVEL with K/S overtones in it. Just overtones, 'cos that's all they could get away with, but it was definitely there. Lemme look it up. Okay it's called "Killing Time" by Delta Van Hise. The original version had the K/S elements in it, the later ones cut that part out, which means the original is now a collectors' item. (But the novelization of "The Motion Picture" had THAT in it and THAT was apparently fine...)
My mom went through the '70s and '80s era of fandom and still has some fanzines and yes, she contributed to them a few times herself. It was kind of a fascinating era, since without the internet, fans had to spread ideas around through letters, fanzines, and actually meeting at conventions...but spread their ideas they did, including the occasional spoiler for the next Trek movie and even what we'd call today _memes_! I was a kid at the time so I was only on the fringes, but I do remember some stuff.
(The main meme-like thing I remember was: "I was stupid, I was expendable, and I went'--T. Yar" Turns out that was a paraphrased version of a _Blakes' 7_ line ("I'm not stupid, I'm not expendable, and I'm not going.") that made it to Trek fans and then around the country until I heard it years later. So it was a _cross-universe_ meme, or at we called them at the time, in-jokes.)
That one guy on Omegle who went off on a rant about how "women can't be Star Trek fans, dang women always invading mens' spaces!" SERIOUSLY needs to see this. (Not that he'd pay attention.) Women not only saved Trek, but multiple times! Other sci-fi things may've been more male spaces at some point, but Trek never was. Not from the fans' perspective.
That excerpt from the novelization of TMP is one of the most Roddenberry things I've ever heard.
Both the footnote, and the sex stuff.
I read a lot of fanfiction in my life, but damn the writing in this fandom is on another level! I haven't watched Star Trek yet (unfortunately), but I would read these regardless omg
THERE IS NO STAR WARS EPISODE IX WITHOUT FINN/POE!
There is no episode IX period. The franchise ended after TLJ, don’t you know? Odd to end the trilogy after the second movie, but what a conclusion it was
@@cheezyfilmsproductions1842I mean, they ended on a hopeful note. We knew the Resistance were gonna come back from their losses and save the Galaxy from the fascism of the First Order! Finn would explain to Rose that he’s gay and she would help him ask Poe out and they all lived happily ever after. Really there was just no reason to show us the ending
10/10 VIDEO! You all did amazing work on this!
*Dicard???* _DICARD?!!!_ 😂😂😂
OMG I love that so much!!
This was a lovely video, as a kind of "fandom old" there's still a lot of our fandom culture that I want and need to learn. Thank you for making this! And I giggled so much at the fic readings, that made my whole _week!!_ tysm ilu ❤
I really loved this wonderfully nerdy examination of early ST history.
'7' is a lucky number. Especially for Vulcans...
love the o'brien and bashir dolls holding hands in the background
I was there man..when the Usenet and IRC went up my writing life began with Star Trek fan fiction and RP. Changed my life. And I witnessed the birth of online fan fiction :) This is just the best! Really uplifting honestly since everything else in world makes me want to cry. Thanks!
Ok this is going to be fun
This was a great video, amazing work! Smiled through out the whole thing and I learned a lot!
Oh my
How does this not have so many more views? Jessie, this is the first video of yours that I have watched, you are so funny and likeable. This video is comprehensive overview of k/s and such high quality, I can really see the research that was done. Thank you for making this, I can't wait to watch more videos on your channel.☺
TBH, this is still one of my favorite videos I've made and I'm sad it doesn't have more views.
I just discovered your channel in my reccomndeds and wow I am LOVING your content.
Thank you for this video. Well written, and documented. Reminds me why I love fanfiction and slash fiction so much.
I adore this story and there was so much about it I didn't know. Great new info for the brain.
As someone who has been writing slash since Voyager (P/K Party all the way!) I really appreciate learning more of this history. The idea that there are blue-haired slashers out there in nursing homes still writing and reading makes me so hopeful for my future. :)
This was really well done and informative!
Love that slash vid with NIN and Kirk/Spock. Also, I think this is your best work yet!
Wonderful video Jessy! Chapeau. Very in-depth research.
Hooray my brand!!
JESSIE GOES FOR THE GOLD!!!
I can think of no one more thoughtful, socially sensative or qualified to do this subject justice. Slash fiction built bridges and fed cravings that forged inventive minds.
Great video! I learned a lot about Fandom and slash history and enjoyed a great deal of nostalgia!
To be honest, I was raised as a conservative christian in a very conservative community, so really never had much exposure to the LGBTQ+ community. And struggled privately with my sexuality and gender identity. Since meeting more progressive people, and actually getting exposure to the LGBTQ+ community, I've been able to accept that I'm a cis woman who just didn't like sexist stereotypes. Sexuality was always a struggle because I'm demi and don't actually feel physical attraction unless there's an emotional bond. And I've found that with an emotional bond, physical appearance including sex and gender expression don't matter to me. It's hard to explain why, but slash fiction and bl stories really did help me understand that part of myself. It also helped break some of the prejudice that had been drilled into me, that same sex relationships were perverted or all about sex. It was like a light bulb came on and, oh, no: Same sex relationships can be romantic, sweet, passionate, devoted, or whatever. They're just like any other relationship.
There are also a lot of good points in the comments about how female characters are so often sorta shallow or at least personal or emotional relationships are not well developed. And in hetero relationships, the gender roles and personalities are pretty stereotypical. Slash fiction and bl can really offer a very different alternative. I've definitely read some things that seemed to fetishize or seemed too eager to ship literally any men together, so I really want to stay away from that toxic style or mentality. I feel like I'm still learning and still trying to figure out how I fit into things, but the last thing I want is to be add to harmful practices.
Great!
"Closer" is an inspired touch.
Great video as always!
Yeah. I'm a huge Slash fan. I've written a lot, though not in Star Trek. Much as I love Kirk/Spock, for some reason it doesn't inspire me to write more. But I remeber the forst time I learned about Slash. My jaw dropped and I gasped: "Yeah, they totally are lovers. The show just didn't come right out and say it." And I've never looked back. I will defend Slash of all kinds until my dying day. 😊
Ahhh yes, I love hearing this part of fandom history discussed. Also, that Closer vid is a classic, glad to see it mentioned.
Soooooo I really want to read your Dicard fan fic! Also amazing video! Been watching your videos a lot in the past few weeks, and love all the work you do!
Honestly didn't know "drawer fiction" was a thing. Therefore I find it personally hilarious that of all possible storage options, my own Trek fanfic (along with meticulously compiled research material) - which was literally used as practice for writing a completely unrelated novel draft - is currently tucked away in a neatly labeled drawer. Hidden from view but easily accessible. Good times. 🤔🖖🍍
K/S or gay-themed erotic fan fiction isn't my cup of tea but it deserves its place in the sun like all other facets of fandom. A very eye-opening video. Thanks for making this! :)