Why Spock’s Sexuality is so Dang Controversial (SEX IN STAR TREK BONUS)
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- Опубліковано 7 кві 2022
- Star Trek Strange New Worlds seemingly might be making Spock heterosexual.... but does that take away from the queer history of the character?
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Honestly, if Strange New Worlds features Spock running around shouting "I'm straight!" I think that would be the strongest possible indication that he isn't.
Like, "I'm in control of my emotions!"
I mean, Michael's parting speech to him is basically "Find a guy name Jim Kirk and hang onto him"
Thank you for making me giggle today.
That seems logically correct.
Live long and defroster!
What? If he says he straight that means he's gay? So if he said he's gay you'd take it as hes straight? I think you just want the character to be gay
*Rubs my bisexual hands together, puts on heart shaped glasses*
"Let's do this."
(Also, wow your Twitter take is basically what I mentioned in my community post that my partner and I believed.)
✨Bi/Ace solidarity in Starfleet.✨
I'm 66 years old.
I watched Spock on our brand new, RCA color TV that Dad bought specifically to watch Star Trek.
My sexuality and identity were excuses for my mother, the church and the community to terrorize and torture me.
I ran away at 17 and immediately became a Queer rights activist.
Half a century later, I'm appalled we've not matured more gracefully as a culture.
These insecure, remedial, cowards who clutch pearls, concern troll and gaslight are only proving their God, their sexuality and their comprehension of 10th grade biology are inadequate and failed.
Stop weighing the rest of us down!
Preach, friend -- and join me and others like us in working for IDIC on earth, in all senses.
@@semperfi818 I'm old, disabled, living in isolation and poverty.
I've done my time.
It's on y'all now.
@@GrannyGamer1 Your spirit is still strong, and it inspires me. BTW, my friend, I'm 63 by the calendar, with a bad back that has earned me disability payments, but I'm just getting started, so I'll help carry it forward to rally the next generations to keep up the good fight.
@@semperfi818 it's not my job to inspire you. And I find that both condescending and dismissive of my situation.
I am bot strong. I am broken, exhausted, in searing pain, isolated, impoverished, terrified and closeted.
@@GrannyGamer1 Forgive me for phrasing that wrongly enough to hurt where I'd only intended honor -- I'm sorry, and I don't make light of your situation, but wish you an end to your pain and your fears, peace in your heart, safety where you are and the ability to continue, a day at a time. Nobody should have to suffer like what you describe; I will try my best to help make life better for all who hurt in all of those ways.
Given Kirk's observed sex life, plus the footnote saying greatest rather than "only sexual," Kirk being non straight makes sense. The idea that all of those alien women having the same lower genitalia as cis human women strains credibility.
@@willdwyer6782 😆
With the exception of his Alien? Wife on the Native American Planet, prime timeline Kirk actually never slept with that many woman. There’s like two in the original series for sure. Three if you count his son’s mother from the films series who was human. And seemed to have voluntarily ended a full on relationship with him. He was more then a bit of a mysoginist, but not a womanizer. In TOS Kirk was either actually ‘in love of the week’ (which was actually rare) or an alien female was interested in him and he either went with it enough to gain some advantage in a bad situation and get the crew out of it or was under the influence. The Kirk sleeping around stereotype was actually not true. Kelvin Kirk is more based on the ‘idea’ formed from the episodic nature of TOS Kirk always having some woman after him. Rather Kirk was actually in love or attracted or interested at all. Even his kiss with Uhura was forced on him by magical aliens. The only thing he was ever shown explicitly in love with was the Enterprise.
I don't hesitate to jump between different interpretations on a whim. At the moment I'm on "heterosexual homoromantic Kirk in an intense queerplatonic relationship with usually-ace/aro Spock," but that might change in five minutes (or less if someone suggests another reading that I like).
And let's not forget how _ridiculously_ horny Roddenberry was.
@@TheDawnofVanlife (Actually Miramanee was a transplanted Human, that's why they were some cultural descendents of abducted Native Americans. )
I love how ridiculous this argument is. Like, bisexuality exists people! He can like men AND women. Lmao
It's like saying that you can't enjoy peanut butter _and_ chocolate when Reese's cups exist!
@@LexYeen Don't you mean chocolate *and* peanut butter?!? /s
but asexuality also exists and thats what spock stood for for me at least. He is driven by logic, therefore something like attraction to either man or woman isn't necessesairily a part of him, making him not like men nor women. And thats why giving him a love interest at all is not logical, unless he is only "mating" with another vulcan to ensure his race can go on and in that case only a heterosexual relationship would make sense because of the obvious biological conditions. Still, spock is an obviously carreer driven scientist not any ordinary vulcan, so his desire to contribute to sustain the vulcan race would not be a high priority unless the race is threatened to go extinct. But if you argue the human side of spock is strong enough any sexuality is viable, asexual, bi, homo, hetero etc.
@@LexYeen but what if you don't like any sweets?
There's also a conflation of romantic and sexual orientations, when Spock seems pretty likely to me to have them be different.
OMG Jessie using the LLAP Vulcan salute for a scissoring gesture is ART! All bow down in worship of the Queen of Intros! 🙌🙌🙌
🖖✂️🖖
You read my mind! Did we meld or something and I forgot?
This happens often actually, and not just on Jessie's channel. I go to post a comment with observations and encouragement (or what I think is a clever joke) and *you've* already beat me to it *and* delivered it better.
Scheiße!
@@searchingfororion Aw, thank you! You're very kind! :-)
@@sebastianevangelista4921 LOL, this is brilliant headcanon, I love it! XD
D... doesn't everybody do this?
I love your point on how heteronormativity colors our interpretation.
I teach Latin, and when my kids start reading ancient poetry, one of the first *wham* moments for them is realizing that, at least among writers who have survived to our day, most of them were bisexual in modern terms. Realizing that bisexuality was normalized at that time (kinda, the sexual politics of the time were still pretty bad) can help remind people that the way things are NOW isn't "normal" or "natural." It's just the way things are now, and they can change, as they always have over time.
This makes me want to go back and pull out my Ovid! And my old first year latin text books! I did two years but I think I would have kept with it if you were my professor! I still can recite the first declension!
@@ttthecat Ovid's the only explicitly straight poet, sadly.
Martial seems to be mostly straight, too.
But Horace, Propertius, Catullus, etc. all wrote love poetry to dudes.
@@HollowGolem Wait, how can we forget Sappho?!?
(Yes, I know very little of her work still exists, but what there is of it is lovely!)
Edit: Oops, my woman-lovin' brain (which is also on some pretty heavy migraine meds and painkillers right now!) mixed up my Greek and Latin in the love of historical queer literature. I am a silly duck.
@@neuralmute We read Sappho only through Catullus in Latin (he translated some of her poetry, though "I'm jealous of your husband" is different coming from a guy than from a woman.)
But Sappho is definitely in that "functionally bisexual" cadre as well, if we go to Greek. She wrote love poetry to womena nd men, talked about the lives fo her children, etc. She's noteworthy for being a pretty open book in terms of her poetry and making her art personal in a way that very few poets had before her.
I feel it's worth noting that Spock's Pon Farr is satiated, not by consummating his marriage to T'Pring, but by a physical confrontation with Kirk. Yes, the script has him explain that the 'shock of thinking he killed his captain' snapped him out of it, but that can just as easily be read as a bit of obfuscation as it can a more straight explanation.
Surely that's a LESS straight explanation :P
In my own personal headcanon, Spock being a bi ace or demisexual was what made the most sense to me, even though I didn't have that terminology at the time. Spock and Kirk being super into each other was, to my eyes, very apparent, and while he was experiencing pon-farr (which looked to be a culturally conditioned physical reaction or something to my teen Trekkie self), he didn't seem to experience any actual attraction to T'Pring and, frankly, seemed glad to have gotten out of his arranged marriage. Any type of vaguely sexual/sensual/physically romatic interaction he had seemed to be either under the influence of sci-fi space mindfuckery or more for the benefit of his partner than his own...or both!
I think kirk spock i the strongest, but given he has attrations to women too, and he is some kind of ace, Pan demi/ace, yeah checks out.
And the movies later play into shipper so thats , lik what cant they do before the klingons?
True. Spock seemed genuinely distressed during pon farr, and all of his prior comments about sex indicated sex-repulsion. Kirk and Spock definitely have chemistry, but the "sexual" (ish) element of that chemistry was always Kirk.
I didn't get any sort of ace vibe from Spock but then again my strongest memories of Spock are that he was the crew member who had the most romances like cave time traveling girl, the cloud city girl, and the spore incident. He was the real player on the enterprise.
@@CT_Phipps Note Jadzia Dax's comments about him!
The conventions of '60s TV dictated that all the main characters had to have love interests at times, and so they did. Which had to get explained by spores or "reverting to his ancestors" or whatever since Spock was originally portrayed as unapproachable and remote.
I’ve always interpreted every character in Trek as Bi unless otherwise stated. Since human history shows that without cultural stigma most people default to Bi if the federation is an ideal society it would make sense that Bi is the default. As far as I can remember Dr. Crusher is the only confirmed straight character.
Gates McFadden has now come out as saying Dr Crusher is bisexual. Turning down one Trill doesn't mean she doesn't have the capacity to be with women. If you see Trill as an allegory for trans, it does imply that at that stage, she wasn't open to dating MtF trans folks but that may change later, or perhaps she was just weirded out by the entire thing (not the transition, the whole "weren't you just inside Riker" thing though my brain is fuzzy on that detail.)
To me that's exactly what any belief that romance and sexuality are spectrums should lead to. If every one is on a spectrum, then very few people would be strictly straight or strictly gay. Most people might be strongly preferential to one or the other, but would also still be open to the possibility of exploration if they ever met the "right" person.
I know that's certainly been my own personal experience.
i see a lot of characters as pansexual some straight some gay and as far as data goes i don't believe he was asexual i believe because he didn't have emotions until the films his sexuality is more complicated than saying he was straight or asexual as far as Kirk and Spock maybe in the future sexuality is seen differently in the future not to mention what sexuality in an alien species might be different on how humans interpret it now i do think representation is important but i dont think we should change a character's sexuality when its been explicitly straight like with the case with sulu if the actor or writer says there is no room for any other interpretation then we should respect that and just make new lgbtqia + characters
Personally, I so wanted a lesbian couple on DS9. I guess that is what fanfic is for.
What about the majority of ST characters was begging for an analysis of their sexualities? There are designated horndogs and the all too frequent designated bimbos, and there are the uncertainties of how other species work, and there are the occasional family units like Miles and Keiko... but mostly we don't learn much personal at all about the characters.
Also the Federation is not a society in and of itself (and to the extent to which we see it having social characteristics, they are quite dysfunctional). The Federation (and its enemies) are a collection of numerous races that bring their own probably very diverse customs to the table, including whatever their cultural stigmas are.
Only 3 minutes in, loving everything so far.
My only weirdness with the topic is because subconsciously I associate Spock with my grandpa. When I first saw the original show as a little-little kid, and Spock walked into the screen, I pointed at him and said "granpa's on the show!" And from them on Lenard Nemoy and my grandpa have been forever linked in my brain.
But I also know my grandparents had an uncomfortably healthy sex life into his late 70s 🤣
Haha you know what, good for your grandparents, and condolences to you 😅
I personally would like Spock to be bisexual (or even pansexual). I feel like in the fandom discussion of Spock’s sexuality, there were quite a few bits of bisexual erasure that I ran into, with some folks acting as if gay Spock would be superior to bi Spock with the implication of being bi as somehow less queer than being gay. I feel even in our own queer communities, there’s biases and prejudices we have not necessarily worked through. I certainly get why folks were upset about the depictions in the trailer and the possibility of making Spock explicitly straight, that would suck tbh. But I also wish I didn’t have to see so many comments that felt like it was erasing the queerness of bisexual people.
Did i just somehow miss the furor when Zachary Quinto’s Spock was straight-presenting in the 2009 movie? I was less online then, but did follow movie criticism. Or was it not as big of a deal?
@@alisaurus4224 that was a mine field at the time because they paired him up with uhura, a black woman, but yeah, there was a lot of fuss and general ickiness over it.
Ideally it could be a polycule with kirk,
And i like gay spock, but given he did show attraction to women, pan spock to go. And some kind of ace.
Exactly this. The discussion reeked of biphobia most of the time IMO
@@BadgerPride89 I loved the pairing of Spock and Uhura, which seemed not too far-fetched, given the way they got along in TOS. Particularly Kirk's total inability to get any attention from her whatsoever.
It's very sad that when queer people say "We'd like to see more of ourselves", so many cishet people *hear* "We demand to see fewer of you." We've been so aggressively vilified in media and politics, just wanting to be ourselves is perceived to be an imposition.
It's also totally possible for a person's sexuality to change over time, either as they discover new truths about themself or as they just flat out change and develop as a person. There's nothing to stop us from saying that Spock has been, at various times, straight, gay, bi, ace, etc and just has an evolving relationship with his own sexuality.
Cishet folks having a fit over queer representation being added to Trek (or, for that matter, any media/franchise) are like omnivores having a fit about restaurants adding vegan options to their menue or vegetarian sides to their meat-based main dishes . Like, cool your thrusters, Billy-Bob, you can still eat all the rib-eye you can stuff down, nobody is forcing rabbit food on you! Geez!
As a vegan who largely keeps that to himself, I couldn't agree more with that interpretation.
Also, straight people can have queer headcanons too. I will go to my grave saying that Crewman Cutler on Enterpise was bi and she only flirted with Phlox because T'Pol turned her down.
Oh my goddess that is THE BEST WAY OF DESCRIBING THAT I have _ever_ freaking heard. XD See also: Mentioning any other winter holiday besides Christmas. IT'S NOT TAKING YOURS _AWAY_, IT'S JUST ALSO MENTIONING THAT OTHER OPTIONS EXIST *TOO!* GEEZ!
Also I've always been someone who enjoys a good hamburger _and_ a good salad, often in the same meal (the crunchy fresh veggies make a nice contrast to the heavy greasiness of the burger, and vice-versa.) I guess in the context of food preferences as metaphor for sexual preferences that makes it sound as if I'm bi and/or like threesomes, but really I'm mostly ace. Heh.
@@arklestudios I never thought of that, but that's a fun idea. I can totally see that. (Also, I wish somebody would've hit on Hoshi as well. T'Pol was The Hot One, sure, but Hoshi wasn't exactly chopped flarn!)
@@arklestudios I agree with Jessie’s interpretations of the characters too, and always have.
Jeez, I hope these whining straight nitwits don't make people feel all us straight dudes are bigoted assholes. WTF guys, there's plenty of room on the couch.
To be honest, if Spock ran around yelling "I'M STRAIGHT"...
Might seem like he was uh, overcompensating lol
Ok, the sentence "I would dislike being thought of as so foolish that i would select a love partner who came into sexual heat only once every seven years." has to be one of the most "Kirk" things to be ever written :-D
This line is, in my personal opinion, the best reason for why the pairing never stuck for me.
My interpretation of the footnote is;
My big problem with Spock is that he doesn't have enough of a sex drive to tempt me .
Edit: no more Spock's low sex drive is a turn off.
OMG 😂
Comparing Spock to his opposite first officer,
Riker... 😂😂😂 Oh My
Is there such a thing as anysexual?
My reading is that he's stated he wouldn't be satisfied in a monogamous relationship with Spock, but that means the possibility of an open relationship is completely..... open.
@@raphaelatienza I think RIker would be omnisexual. Yes, that's a thing. Let's not think about what he gets up to alone with that trombone and lots of lube. XD
It read as him fully endorsing but carefully not outing his bi/gay friend, and reminding any ladies around what his own sexual preferences are while letting his unspoken romantic thing with Spock remain unspoken. And I don't even ship it.
The reactions for the tweet at 18:26 echo a similar problem within the Encanto community with some fans being just as dismissive of queer interpretations, which also include the insult of "you're sexualizing kids movie characters by having queer headcanons!"
I think everyone here should also watch We Are Gay's latest video on Encanto btw. It is a good companion to listen to about this similar topic of how queerness is generally seen as an attack on people bc they see the default as straight.
(There were 69 comments before my comment. 👀)
The irony of someone with the bi flag in their profile pic complaining about Spock being straight because he kisses a woman is...just...so why???
Pretty colours? The fade on the Bi flag is aesthetically pleasing. That or internalized biphobia/erasure.
Besides, there is no problem with spock maybe being heterosexual.
commenting before watching the video so maybe you mention this; its really frustrating that they would have introduced openly LGBTQ characters to Trek much sooner if it weren't for Rick Berman
I loathe Rick Berman
I always considered Spock asexual/demisexual, demiromantic, with his feelings towards Jim being demiromantic and Jim's being more on the bisexual spectrum. As an ace/aro myself, I've identified with Spock since my childhood.
If Gene Roddenberry were a literature professor, I would absolutely take the "Kirk has no real problem with the idea, he just doesn't swing that way" bit being both in-character and third-hand ("we, the fictional editors of this text, asked fictional Kirk, and this is what he told us") as deliberately ambiguous and a somewhat heavy-handed if light-hearted version of "um...they're all fictional, so there's no *real* version of their relationship, interpret them however you want." Now, he wasn't a literature professor, but since Spock, Kirk, and the (meta)fictional editors are all imaginary, I'll still feel free to enjoy being able to move between interpretations as the mood strikes me (like you point out in the video).
The only issue I have with Spock/Kirk is Kirk really should not be sleeping someone in his crew.
This is my interpretation of why they don't get together. :')
So glad someone finally brought this up. We've always been told that captains are isolated because there is no one in the crew who is not in their chain of command, so no one they can date. (Why Janeway ended up with a holo-guy.) The XO is still a subordinate and should be off limits.
And anyway, isn't Kirk's main romantic bond supposed to be with the Enterprise herself?
One ting that Jess will do is find a way to talk bout shreks & star trek.. And i love it 😂💜
This reminds me of Ruth Bader Ginsberg's famous quote: "People ask me sometimes, when - when do you think it will it be enough? When will there be enough women on the court? And my answer is when there are nine." There are plenty of shows today that don't have any gay people still. That's the way it's been for decades. It should be fine if a show wanted to have no straight people.
The thing that gets me about this is the erasure of bi and pan folk, how 'gay' gets used to mean gay but also glomps up bi and pan people for some and so you don't know which version the person speaking means. With Andrew J Robinson and Garak what he described was more that he saw the character as pan (he said omnisexual because pan wasn't used then, but pan) not gay. Spock could kiss a woman and fall for a woman and such and he could still be bi and this gets ignored so so much. Big time.
Sometimes it can be a fine line between 'erasure' and just *privacy* if being bi means you can't be with anyone without proclaiming you could also be with someone else. Monosexuals don't have to do that, but yaknow, part of us not having to do that also means 'don't just assume anyone you want is even of a compatible orientation,' that shouldn't be on us either.
Thank you, NethDugan. THANK YOU.
I'm so delighted to see someone other than me use the word "monosexual."
Don't have to tell me. I was disappointed when Xena Warrior Princess and Gabrielle didn't get to go off to The Isle of Lesbos together where they belonged.
Hey, Jessie! Tiny correction from the Ace-spec side: the term is sex "favorable", not positive. Positive is a political position/opinion about sex overall including towards others enjoying it, being open about, etc. People who enjoy/like/want sex are considered favorable.
I think Spock might be more averse or indifferent, as he doesn't seem uncomfortable with sex so much as just...not into it. I really enjoyed this video! I feel like Kirk and Spock are more of a true QPR (Queer Platonic Relationship). Their love can be just as intense and passionate without being romantic or platonic, and that's the vibe I get....though I think Kirk, being likely bi, has some unrequited urges that just get tamped down because Spock isn't into it.
TBH, though I know Star Trek fairly well enough for a casual fan, this makes me want to watch more. I guess I'll go watch your other ST videos now too lol
But, in fairness, some people do still say positive to mean the same thing
I did not know this! And now I do. Thanks for the clarification. :)
I've literally always heard it called sex-positive
I AM ace
While I'm not sure where I stand on this question, one thing I always took was this: Spock loved his friend and expressed that love. Many Star Trek characters have given me examples of non-toxic masculinity, and even the idea that I, as a straight man, can still express love for my guy friends.
And Riker is pansexual and polyamorous. You don't need to interpret that, the man is what he is. We love him for that.
Actually Riker seems to be personally and very clearly personally-attracted to women. He just doesn't care if they're cis or trans by Human readings. And as Jessie's pointed out, he seems to be incredibly sex-positive about anyone having good sex just in general. I wouldn't actually read him as pan, say, just for embracing Sorin's gender identity. Just being with someone androgynous or trans doesn't actually 'make' someone pansexual.
A thing I think the Author's Intent contingent has failed to realize is, the instant I or any other fan writes a short story, I become the Author, and in that space, then, only my interpretation, my intent matters, according to the rules they invented.
There is also that with a show, youhave not one author, and like with garak wher pretty sure writers did thip them, ther were definitly writers shipping kirk and spock, it woulsnt be as popula if some authors hadnt the intent to make kirk well in a romantic aexual relationship with spock. No matte ho much he slept around, that is authos intent too.
And whatevr his thoughts were thre, h made remarks that makes it open that it could be. Regarding authors intent. Even if it was fo the shipper if, he did,
I wish my experience with aos Kirk/Spock fandom could've been more positive. As a queer woc who got into aos after growing up watching tos, I certainly didn't go into the fandom expecting to feel hostility surrounding Kirk/Spock, since I went into it as a fan of the pairing. However, seeing the fan reaction to the now-canonized spock/uhura relationship (which was also strongly hinted at by Roddenberry in tos), and specifically the way fans treated Uhura as a part of that dynamic, ended up turning me away from the Kirk/spock pairing. The (rightful) disappointment at the lack of queer rep in the modern trek films quickly transferred into a specific vitriol towards an interracial pairing with a black woman love interest, and it was disheartening to see white queer people so quickly dismissive of the impact of canonizing that relationship, even in the 2000s. From the interactions I had/saw, people were very quick to re-pair uhura up with a side character or even off-screen cameos like nurse chapel, in order to get Kirk and Spock together. meanwhile, other popular queer readings of Kirk with other characters like McCoy weren't considered nearly as often as alternatives. It was always uhura that had to be "moved." Even now, if you search for fanfic of spock/uhura you'll have to wade through pages and pages of Kirk/spock where Kirk breaks the couple up (and they still decided to tag it as spock/uhura of course). All this to say that; I couldn't go into the fandom for the new films and enjoy Kirk/spock like I used to after seeing the way fandom treated Uhura, when she went from being a side character they could ignore, to a threat to the main queer pairing (of two cis white dudes). I'm not saying there aren't multi-shippers out there (that's literally me lol) or that every Kirk/spock shipper was terrible, it was just my experience. I was so excited by the prospect of spock/uhura becoming canon, and then when I saw how the rest of fandom reacted, treating it as a targeted slight and a step backwards, it was hard for me to ignore the obvious elephant in the room of who in the queer community was raising these concerns and how.
Interesting points, it really sucks how early 2010's fandom was obsessed with the slighting and demonisation of canon female love interests to get other more popular ships together -- especially with the added aspect of race in this case. Fortunately canon female love interests seem to be handled a *lot* better in fandom these days, at least from what I've seen!
Personally, I have mixed feelings about the whole Spock/Uhura thing; as Uhura was the only main female character in the first film, I didn't particularly enjoy her being paired up with a more plot relevant male lead. I guess to me it felt like they were tying her down a bit? Although she still had her own role and great moments, it seemed like the romance was thrown in as just a standard 'every action movie need a romance subplot' sorta thing that these characters were convenient for due to the hints towards them in TOS.
That being said, I liked the way the end of their relationship was portrayed in Beyond and the overall arc it took (despite the bickering in Into Darkness).
Ooof, I know toxic shipping fandom all too well (Mortal Kombat in my case, DC and Marvel at times as well) my condolences
Thank you for articulating what I felt but hadn't known how to express, my utter disappointment that Uhura had to be used as a "wedge" or "obstacle" or "antagonist" to SPirk. (The joy of good Drama and Angst aside it was kind of ugly.) The hostility was really upsetting, and I had always assumed that everyone(especially the xenophiles) in the future was "bi" 'cause that just made sense to be open to any possibility of love, I found the covetous hostility towards a happy S/U ship disappointing. I grew up with ALL the trek series and I never wanted my idea of romantic joy to come at someone else's expense. There is room for every flavor of love, hostility need not apply.
I had no idea Uhura/Spock had happened in canon - that's pretty cool!
This! I'm so sorry you had to experience this. Princess Weeks made a great video on how yt queer fans erase and demonize pairings with poc love interests in favor of a gay ship.
I dont know why, but before the calvin timeline, I always saw spock as asexual. BTW, I adore your Star Trek videos. They are unusual, intelligent, intersting and very entertaining. And this is comming from a Star Wars fan.
The universe is infinite, there's no reason you can't enjoy both!
Being DemiSexual is on the Asexual spectrum as well as being Graysexual. As a Demi or Gray sexual you may be able to take or leave or not even care about actual sex, even if you have a partner you love. If they want it, you may participate and even enjoy it. But desiring it and being ‘turned on’ may never actually be a thing. I see Spock on that Demi/Gray spectrum even in the Kelvin timeline.
@@TheDawnofVanlife There's no spectrum. A means NONE. There is an allosexual spectrum.
Can we canonize Jessie as patron Saint of Star Trek fandom for being so nuanced and kind to people who litteraly attacked her personhood in those Twitter comments. Hope you take care of yourself, it must not be easy to do this.
It's always a little weird to me. I thought it was great that there were so many people of colour in Discovery, despite being super white. It didn't "threaten" me, because I could still enjoy the characters. But I've grown up with TV shows full of straight cis dudes who don't represent me, while it seems the bulk of Trek fans have never really been challenged to identify with a hero outside their comfort zone.
Hell, I was happy when Disco threw us the bone of one gay couple. Before Jett or the kids appeared on the show...I am ecstatic that we have so many queer characters, finally, but it's still only a fraction of the crew, and it's disheartening to see people so upset that people like me...exist.
I love your interpretations of Spock, Kirk, Picard and Data. My daughter and I play a game when we're watching movies and tv, we call it But Make it Gay, we kinda rewrite the scripts as we go. It started with My Fair Lady, but we do it with everything; Stargate, Star Trek, Star Wars, BSG, Merlin, Dr Who, the Bible, they're all better the more queer characters you add especially SG1 the only straight characters left are Teal'k and Colonel Hammond at this point. But it isnt just our reading of things, they(producers, execs, etc) leave intangible echos and shadows of queerness in the media for the LGBTQIA community to grasp at while everyone else is oblivious to it and then people get upset when we notice it or add it in on our own. We're simultaneously being encouraged and discouraged from adding our own subtext, its frustrating. I'm not sure what I'm trying to say but I don't think people will ever stop changing old stories to fit with our times. Stories evolve and grow with us over time and i talk too much
Make it so... gay
I just realized that is technically all of the fan fiction I have ever read was a version of that awesome game! I am determined to play that later with other movies and my lgbt+ family!
Ok but what did you change about Merlin in your game? Did you make Uther and Gaius a thing?
“People only appeal to authorial intent to deny someone else’s reading.”
Good lord, that sticks. It’s true, and it’s the kind of fundamentalism that is the beating heart of toxic fandom. And really, in something as communal and meaningful as fandoms, can you even think of a worse thing for a fandom to be than toxic?
Another superbly spoken and deftly made video, Jessie. You continue to discuss Trek and our own world in exactly the way I’ve always wanted to see done on UA-cam.
This entire video is hilarious to me because I've been using Spock for years in discussions of the lack of ace rep in media. He's one of what I call the "three S's"--three well-known characters that people analogize asexuality to when they don't really understand it. (The other two are Sherlock Holmes and Sheldon Cooper.) What makes it funny to me is that all three characters can be read canonically as something other than ace...but straights tend to jump to the idea that they never bump uglies because it's more comfortable than identifying with a non-straight character who does. Or, as I put it, "These characters are what people think asexuality is...and none of them seem to actually BE ace."
What of asexuals who ARE like that?
@@Nakia11798 Also totally valid! But Spock and Sheldon Cooper both have significant plotlines about their experience of sexual attraction and Holmes' fascination with Irene Adler and relationship with Watson have been feeding fan writers for over a hundred years, so it's entirely possible to read all three characters as NOT ace! Which is part of the problem with extremely limited rep. When audiences generalize from a sample size that small--and two of these characters were created well before asexuality was widely understood to be an orientation--people tend to get rather weird ideas about what aces are like, and get mad when real aces are, well, people. Nobody has this problem with straight characters, and nobody necessarily has to have this problem with gay characters at this point. With aces, however, it lingers.
I’ve always taken Spock and everyone else in ST as bi unless specified otherwise, just because that’s the future I want. Any interpretation other than Het would have been awesome for this new show tho I wish writers would take direction from what is popular with fans.
Even though I don’t interpret Spock as Ace (because he’s pretty much just like other Vulcans in the extended lore, just with more pressure on him, and they do bone so I never saw his general non sexual behavior as standing out among his culture just among humans who are more casual with their attraction and my bi as fuck ass just makes people bi whoops) but it would have been awesome to see a popular fan interpretation brought to life. Or even framing him as Demi and having the genders of who he might find himself growing closer to to be more flexible, maybe a guy instead of a girl or a non-binary character and actor would have been cool to see.
Haven’t finished the vid, wanted to get my thoughts about before I hear yours! Excited for your opinion!
Thank you for reminding folks that kissing a woman "makes spock straight" OR BI/PANSEXUAL. Tired of having to remind the LGs that we exist
Yeah, it's just immediately obvious if you're bi/pan- "He kissed a woman- _and?_ That doesn't automatically mean he's straight, jeez!" You can kinda understand straight cis people jumping to that conclusion, but LGT+ people??
The timing of this video with the SNW trailer is the healing I needed, to be honest with you. Thank you Jessie!
I would argue that straight v. gay is a human premise!… would further press The point that Spock, coming from a culture that is so "straight laced" and uptight, it is entirely possible that he grew up Asexual. Whatever his natural desires might be. /And as a sapoio-sexual /asexual myself. I believe that Spock would find JTKirk to be a tiresome jackass. And while some of the fan base reacted negatively to the reboot. Now. Chris Pine as Kirk. Ok, maybe,.,..perhaps Shat' and his weird, stilted delivery were the problems all along. To the folks who griped about the reboot Spock/Uhura pairing... get over it, who wouldn't want to get stuck in elevators with Zoey Seldama???. Or for that matter, Rebecca Romjin,? Now that was some sexual tension!
@@SkinnyDaisieArts Your assertion that Spock would have quickly grown disenchanted with Kirk, even finding him a "tiresome jackass," compels me to suggest that perhaps Spock elicits in Kirk a best self not usually expressed elsewhere, which draws the Vulcan intensely to his captain.
It so strange that so many people are so afraid of " otherness " and being asosiated with otherness.
A sad and needless fear, if one thinks about it: all of us are "other," in one sense or another, so it would make the most sense, from a mental-health perspective, to learn to accept this as human reality and move on with one's life. (Remember Rimbaud's telling observation: "'I' is another.")
@@semperfi818 I was years and years sins I read any poetry
@@edj8008 The French Symbolists might be a rough go for you now if that's so, but there's poetry everywhere in life (though I doubt what I wrote was anything close, sure), ready to be relished...
@@semperfi818 Im starting with the poetic Edda. It's s bit crude but it translate very well 2 swedish and it's actually funny (in a toxic and rude way but still funny)
@@edj8008 Ah, you're Swedish, digging into your cultural heritage -- my Swedish-descended partner would approve, and I am impressed. Enjoy your poetic deep-dive.
Bruh, did those people complaining about Spock having a relationship with a woman not watch TOS? Yes, there was a LOT of chemistry between Kirk and Spock, but the whole Pon Far episode is almost all about how he needs to bone down with a woman right now!
I think people aren't considering him being bi or pan, or asexual for 7 years at a time. This woman in the trailer is probably T'Pring, the vulcan who he telepathically bonded with at age 7
(oh hey, you said that too, guess I should listen to the video before commenting)
People using Pon Farr as evidence of orientation for *any* Vulcan feels like missing the point, too - isn't the entire point that it causes them to act out of character and against their normal desires?
With Pon Farr part of the tension of the episode is that Spock has to return to T’Pring, but he doesn’t want to. He even talks about “wishing he’d been spared”. I think that episode therefore doesn’t really work as evidence for Spock’s heterosexuality, as he doesn’t seem attracted to T’Pring but rather acknowledges having sex with her as the only way to save his life.
I’ve noticed this weird phenomenon in shipping circles, one character has to be gay and one has to be bi. Whoever had a prominent female love interest is bi, and if the second had one too, that’s just comphet from repression. People can’t seem to fathom 2 bi people in a relationship unless it’s a cute “we dated the same person but now we’re dating each other” thing like in legends of korra
As a bi, I feel extremely charmed by bisexual Kirk and biromantic Spock. Love that.
I personally read Spock as mostly asexual with some bi tendencies. As GozerTheGozarian said in this thread, perhaps Spock is demi. Sexuality is complicated.
What amuses me here is that people are judging this just off the trailer as if bisexuality is not even a thing, not even a possibility. To me as a bisexual woman it is one more piece of bierasure in the culture.
It's sad that people are still so hung up on seeing depictions of characters in the sexual orientation they are most comfortable or used to.
Sorry; my words are off this morning, it's 532 and I'm not getting everything out the way I want. This whole situation just makes me sad.
My take is that Jessie Gender is a beautiful woman who has a delightful take on all of the Star Trek genre.
I always interpreted Spock as aromantic, being devoted to science, logic, philosophy, music, chess, and all things fascinating. Just his own Vulcan boldly going and coming (Captain, your pun was... satisfying). Still, I'm down with Kirk/Spock fan fiction. I like Saldaña's Uhura with Quinto's Spock as well. All are valid in the multiverse, and I'm all for that IDIC :)
Spock is either PAN or ACE IMO, I could be wrong though.
I made the comment before the whole video still stand by that comment.
@@dudds6699 could be both
PanDemi
I read him as panromantic asexual so yes.
You're wrong.
You can't tease me with that 3 hour video Jessie. I have a weakness for long form video essays.
I with Spock, or really any Vulcan, it can go different ways. Due to pon farr, I see most Vulcan characters have more fluid attractions that can change. And I know some AFAB and trans people who find their hormone levels change how and who they're attracted to, so I think that makes most logical sense, but also leaves it open for interpretation.
I never got into Trek.
But I did do a deep dive into Euripides after finding a translation of The Trojan Women in my high school library, and I definitely found representation I don't think the old playwright intended.
In fact, you see me displayed here as teucer915. Teucer has a cameo in the Iliad but I know him from how he shows up in Euripides' "Helen", and I saw that version of the character as Queer when I needed a role model. I've been calling myself teucer online for about 20 years now.
I don't give a shit what the ancient playwright really had in mind.
I've realised along the way that a lot of characters I idolised as a child were ones who came across as neurodivergent and asexual, which makes a lot of sense to me. I've always read Spock as somewhere on the asexual spectrum, even before I had the terminology to explain it.
I've also never understood why some people get so annoyed when others interpret things differently. I'm always interested to hear different takes on my favourite shows and characters.
I never even watched star trek, but something about him made me think "he doesn't have sex", even before I knew what an asexual was, so I get what you're saying.
It seems obvious to me that as time has gone on, queer people have become more and more visible. If we carry that trend accurately into the 23rd century, they're going to be clearly visible, everywhere. Star Trek has always tried to carry trends outward into the future. Roddenberry had the miniskirt persist into the future, and even put a few men into them, because he saw women wearing men's clothes in the 1960s... and naturally expanded this to men wearing women's clothes in the future. Star Trek has always been "what does the leftist utopia really look like?" - and that vision has changed over time.
TNG had new answers and asked new questions. DS9 had new answers and asked new questions. Discovery and Enterprise had new answers and asked new questions. That's what Star Trek does. That's largely what we all like about it.
I always thought/was taught the value of art is in the fact that everyone has their own perspective and none are wrong because art is subjective.
I feel like those that are hostile/toxic stans miss the point entirely of their favorite media.
i still maintain that captain kirk is asexual. plus dr. mccoy always seemed to have a thing for spock. his obsession for vulcan physionomy speaks volumes. captain picard is also asexual via my interpretation. both captains suggested that they have duties to their respective ships. this seems to be a common defense for asexuals.
An interesting take on Capt. Kirk's sexuality: so might his strenuous pursuit of women and aliens who resembled them be construed, then, as a sort of reaction formation on the part of a Starfleet officer keenly sensing some need to appear conventionally (heterosexually) virile as part of the role? (This is, surely, in addition to the media Powers that Be's commercial investment in not offending the heterosexual majority of potential viewers.)
Honestly, Mc'Coy and Spok and Kirk definitely got drunk one night and woke up naked in the same bed. The three of them have a really strong dynamics, and Mc'Coy is definitely into Spock.
His teasing speaks volumes!
@@ponetium I've decided that this is canon. Thank you.
It's unexpectedly fitting that Jessie used a homoerotic scene from Star Trek: The Motion Picture to introduce the big question, "Which matters more, the creator's intentions, or the fans' interpretations?"
The whole conflict of ST:TMP is set off by V'ger rigidly sticking to its goal of finding its creator and fulfilling its original purpose, no matter what obstacles it has to overcome in order to do so. Never mind that V'ger has vastly outlasted, outgrown, and transcended its original "creator" and mission - and never mind that V'ger's stubborn adherence to its own (limited) understanding of its creator's intent only threatens to wipe out that creator's legacy!
I think we could easily read V'ger as a stern warning against an overly strict & narrow focus on creator intent, especially when a work can become so much more powerful (and even com alive!) by incorporating the ideas and perspectives from other times & places.
I just couldn't get into shipping Kirk/Spock in AOS. Kirk came off as strictly heterosexual to me for one thing. Then, there was the choking scene in the first film. I tend to treat AOS and TOS as two separate things. I shipped a lot of Pike/Mccoy back in the day until Pike's character got the axe. One of the things that attracted me to the paring in the first place was the disability representation. It's so hard to find representation as a disabled, lesbian woman. I do more shipping in TOS now.
I've always interpreted Spock as bi, in every depiction of him.
As for shipping, I've never been able to buy Kirk and Spock as a couple, sometimes I have trouble believing they're even friends. I can see Spock starting a relationship with pretty much any character *except* Chapel, Kirk, and T'Pring.
I don’t have anything of relevance to say, I just want to thank you for delivering some of the best queer-media-related-content on UA-cam, and for being such a patient voice when it comes to those who really don’t deserve it. You inspire me as a gay Demi-boy, Jessie ❤️
I thought he could've been Biromantic. (Bisexual/Asexual)
Or somewhere on the asexual spectrum.
Jessie, I feel you. As soon as I saw young Pike in The Menagerie, I knew which captain I'd want behind me XD
I never thought about the fact that part of the reason I related to Spock was because of his biracial (species?) Status but it's true. The plotlines and stories where this came up resonated the most with me (he's still my favorite Trek character) (also this is me being biracial m'self) and...I think I understand some new aspects of myself and why I love this character...thanks Jessie 😊.
Footnote, I always thought of Spock as Asexual (and that also made me relate being on the Ace Spectrum m'self.)
When confronted with antisemitism, white supremacy, transphobia, etc., these people will "death of the author" you within an inch of your life, but as soon as you read something as maybe being queer in any way, suddenly the creator's original intent is incontrovertible holy writ
Wonderful video. I share your feelings in that I enjoy seeing characters that share parts of my identity (aro ace to be more specific). I'm glad that more recent Star Trek series have included more queer folk. I'm saddened but not surprised that some get weirdly antagonistic about it.
Semi-related note: Headcanons can be fun! I enjoy hearing about others' headcanons in fandom even if they don't match mine. It's interesting to see how people can relate to characters in different ways
What's that Vulcan saying oh yeah. infinite diversity in infinite combinations.
Y'All didn't understand that this was just the primer for the 3 hour continuation video of the Sex In Trek series.
48 hour Star Trek essay series! LET'S GO
Thanks for your thoughts Jessie,
I’m always learning a thing or two
on how to open my mind to other ways
of seeing Star Trek over the years-
Spock is sometimes an enigma but always interesting, ha!! ✌🏼❤️
I mean...the slash stuff has always been a fandom thing, no matter how much we might not want it to be. But making him specifically het...eh. I like the idea of him being mostly ace, with the occasional experimentation. His relationship with Uhura (which was actually in TOS!) always felt like an ace but not aro thing. Making him aggressively cishet just feels like pandering (winky eye). That said, I think any new interpretation is just a new interpretation, neither wrong nor right. As long as he's still an overcompensating half-Vulcan, it's Spock.
This is top of my watch later playlist but i came here to say... The page 22 footnote only CONFIRMED that Kirk & Spock were together, not debunked it, and i will DIE ON THIS HILL
As a biromantic ace, I’ve always read Spock that way and I was pleasantly surprised to see that interpretation from someone else.
I kind of find myself agreeing that literally advertising Spock kissing a woman is a bit of a middle finger given the importance of Kirk/Spock to the franchise. It seems to want to assure us that Spock is straight, despite the fact the interpretation that he wasn't is the key reason why anyone in the year 2022 cares about Star Trek.
(Actually I think that accusation comes from a bit of a queer-provincial view. It totally ignores just how many *straight women* have and have had a thing for Spock. Especially through Uhura's, rather than Nurse Chapel's intended eyes. One of my not-a-sci-fi fan straight sisters' would play Star Trek with me over that. Even if I was more kind of a Number One type. :) ) (She always wanted to be Uhura.) (Mind you, the point there is just that no, I don't see any reason to assume the motivation there is 'giving queer folks a middle finger, ' ...there's a genuine straight gal demographic there too.)
Yep, he's either straight or gay, those are the Two Sexualites alright 🙄
@@AN-tw7uj That hardly means it's the accused malice or middle finger toward us just to show a straight romance we've seen before, either.
@@okamiseven That also doesn't have to do with the Spock Uhura thing being about something else than giving a middle finger to a queer-centric view.
@@AN-tw7uj (I'll also point out as maybe kind of an 'elderqueer' here compared to some, there's a thing where if you get enough bats swung at you, everything can start looking like that. Even if it's not actually about us or actually a 'bat.' It's something to remember in 'safe spaces' like Jessie provides here. Just cause this is a safe space doesn't mean everything else is actually danger. That's what those who'd actually prefer we fear and be erased want.
I think we as viewers we want to see in a character on the TV shows or on a media. I always saw Kirk and Spock more of brotherly love. I always thought Kirk had a more of thing for McCoy.
Def true, people will resonate with characters differently
It's kind of frustrating that a lot of people are not even considering the possibility he's bi or pan or anything else, like you mentioned in the end. I understand if the interpretation you hold dear is gay or straight, but automatically assuming that he can ONLY be one or the other is.. really tiring as a BiRo-Ace myself. So much of the spectrum deals with erasure that "controversies" and discourse like this feel just like that. Like its a 3 second clip that hasnt done anything more to one side or another than any of the previous interpretations, is the outrage necessary? Meanwhile the biggest question I have is "why are 2 vulcans kissing like humans?"..
Thank you very much for your excellent dissection of the converstaion as always Jesse! Much love for the work you do ❤
I definitely questioned why the two Vulcans were kissing like humans.
Good video! I'm so excited for pt 2 of Sex in star trek (pt 1 is one of my all time fav youtube videos)
I have to say, I do love gay representation, but I also love kirk and spock as a loving platonic friendship.
I firmly believe that we're a social species, and touch is a language of love, one kirk speaks in. And him displaying his platonic love through touch doesn't necessarily need to have sexual undertones to have value.
Many cishet men are incredibly touch starved to an unhealthy degree, and if they could hold hands and hug each other more without being necessarily interpreted as sexually romantic, I think the world would be a better place.
I don't mind where Kirk and Spock fall, I think it would be nice if their romance was other than platonic, but it being platonic is valuable too.
I think as we do get more well deserved lgbt representation and don't have to look for gay-coding for it anymore, we shouldn't forget het platonic romances that show affection, kiss and hug each other. That kiss each other on the cheek with tender affection of someone you appreciate with your whole heart. I think it's good for the world to love and hug more than just your lovers, and it can be harmful to imply that a bond like that is less meaningful or important, or that adding physical affection automatically makes it sexual.
I am enby and bisexual, I'm not just some cishet person here to shite on lgbt representation. I want to ask if as we get clear lgbt representation, will we continue to code platonic love with a sexual tension? I'd love to see lots of relationships on air, from sexual to platonic of all orientations and genders with various degrees of physical affection. I think it would be good. Just some thoughts I had while watching.
(I also personally head cannon Kirk as Bi, possibly leaning heteroflexible and Spock is Homoflexible if not gay, but also probably on the ace spectrum somewhere)
"Many cishet men are incredibly touch starved to an unhealthy degree, and if they could hold hands and hug each other more without being necessarily interpreted as sexually romantic, I think the world would be a better place." So, so true.
The statement "fans don't get to decide canon" was rendered useless when GOT showrunners decided to make fan theories happen, and, going further back, when certain writer confirmed that certain wizard was gay after years of fan theories and fics.
You know, I would like to see Spock and Kirk living their best life as a couple in a mirror universe one day. I like how people seem to think Spock kissing a woman = heterosexual like, calm down, nothing was ever confirmed. You can write anything for his character, especially in this futuristic context. As far as I'm concerned, I like the idea of pan Spock.
Yeah, like just because you see someone kissing one person of the opposite gender, doesn't mean they can't ALSO like other genders, sometimes...
Star Trek trailers have a habit of disappointing, though. They somehow manage to get every single hope up and then dashing them for every single person.
It's only fitting that Spock would have Schrodinger's sexuality.
I think it is just very sad, that they force any sexuality onto spock on any occasion that arises. I don't care if he is attracted to anything or to what he might be attracted to, but his character is defined by beeing logical and just sometimes the human emotions come through. If spock is doing this, caused by logical decisions (his race is going extinct or he needs an heir or whatever) it would not look like they want to depict it and are. It would not be romantic, they would not kiss, there is no logical reason for any of that. They would both agree to what they are about to do and then just do it. But the movies want to cater to all those people, (hetero or gay doesn't matter) who wanna see love, kissing, romance, sexy time and all that jazz, but there are people out there who don't feel that way. Who just see s*x scenes as annoying time fillers, because they are ace. Spock was one of the very very... very few representations for ace people, and even if he is not ace deep down, it was refreshing to have a character who tends to lean more to that side. That homosexual and bi people get offended because he is depicted as hetero and the debates completely forget the ace possibility is even more upsetting. What Spock should be attracted to doesn't matter at all. It matters IF he has any attraction at all and if so why and if this attraction should be explored in that extent in the movies and shows. Why not keep it a mystery, or choose one or the other and then proceed to not make a big deal out of it by not adding romance scenes.
I agree with everything you say, I also feel that this is one of those toxic behaviors of the fandom, where they want their point of view to be the right one. Personally I always saw Spock as pansexual, and his relationship with Kirk as a deep and platonic friendship, and I love his relationship with Uhura in the Kelvin timeline, but I don't try to impose my point of view on anyone.
Another issue that almost nobody touches is the fact that it seems that people usually interpret friendship as a romantic relationship, this especially happens to men, let us remember that men have always been educated to repress their feelings and when they express them they put them in a awkward situation where they are interpreted as romantic interest, and I don't mean just straight men I just think there are many people who fetishize gay or bisexual men.
Great video, good take. Really looking forward to part 2 - live long and prosper, sister.
Let me tell you, I'm screaming, crying, shaking and screaming again bc im so excited for this
The thumbnail destroyed me. First thing I saw after I opened my eyes. That's fucking hilarious 😂😂😂
So happy you made this video! This coincided nicely with my rewatch of TMP, the new 4K remastering of the Director's Edition.
I have been following this history ever since I became a Star Trek fan, practically speaking. I have always loved the footnote from the TMP novelization - I always read it as queer positive. Kirk quite nearly (and arguably clearly) confirms his bisexuality with the quote!
(That said, Roddenberry's TMP novelization is completely bananas and probably deserves its own video by somebody.)
I know nothing about star trek and characters in it, and yet listening to your videos about them is such a pleasure. I love every video of yours with no exception, but these ones, when I can see you talking patiently about the thing that you love, is the best comfort watch in the world.
Thank you for being yourself, and for sharing your amazingness with us.
(And this is a bit of a rumbly comment, but I wanted to say this huge THANK YOU for a while now, and I can't resist it now)
❤️
Yay! Star Trek videos!
I don't know if my other comment got deleted, but I wanted to mention that there should be room for intersectionality in these conversations. I am a black and queer person with a variety of mixed opinions. To start, I loved it when Spock and Uhara became an item in the new Star Trek. It is rare that black women are actually shown in stable relationships with men. Most blk women are portrayed as less romantic and desirable than their wht counterparts. But I am also bi and I wish there was room for him to be bi, not as an afterthought of the monosexual divide, but because it would make for great bi rep (especially for men and boys).
Of course, I also sympathize with those who genuinely are attached to canon. I tend to be very attached to traditional canon of things I grew to love and I honestly hate change. I always prefer new characters that are queer or poc than just changing an already established character. But I don't think Spock falling in love with the captain would change the canon too much if he were to be bi.
Showing a peacemaker clip but not showing him canonically in bed with another man is blasphemous
Excellent video as usual. I'm still awe how strong you are to actually endure such negativity in social media to make your word out. I quit twitter at the beginning of the pandemic and I don't miss that toxic environment a bit. 😅🤗🤗
This was fun to help out with the script; great work as always Jessie! 💜
for me, the "one that got away" has to be Elim Garak & Julian Bashir! right from their opening scene, there was such intense flirting. I like Julian's bromance with Miles, too 🙂
And then Julian is shown as being interested in girls, too, which is just fine, as we should not have to pick!
Wonderful video, as always! I think you hit upon something in this and several of your other videos: people seem to think about and interact with these characters as if they are real people, not fictional characters. If they were real people, then it WOULD be wrong to interpret them as something they say they’re not. But since they are fictional characters, it ISN’T wrong to read them in several different ways, particularly a character like Spock who had existed for nearly 60 years. There’s something about Trek that makes people, myself included, feel like these characters are real, living people. It’s part of what makes the franchise great, but it leads to some toxic fandom too. This confusion is nicely encapsulated in that one response to your tweet. Your tweet was about fictional characters, the “equivalency” they were going for in their retort was about YOU (a REAL person).
Sorry for the rambling response, but I don’t think it’s ever been so crystallized for me before.
I think one of the issues around fanfic and slashfic topics is that there is a societal focus on getting the "right" interpretation with everything, when most of existence is a lot more grey than that.
Jessie, you're continuously one of my favorite creators in the trek fandom and this video is no exception to that
I see Spock as asexual or a gray sapieosexual with rare aberrations into very sexual that he found abhorrent and frightening. Star Trek and other sci-fi (Babylon 5!) offers opportunities to consider what it would be like to exist as a sapient being with a different biological sex paradigm. I think that's really interesting as someone who studies animals whose minds are opaque. Kirk being bisexual/pansexual is totally possible, especially when you consider differing gender presentations in the alien beings he pursues romantically and whatever they've got going on with their sexual organs. I think it's sweet to consider his relationship with Spock as a platonic romance. I don't understand the hostility to this interpretation, or even to a more sexual one. People who get upset with the numerous labels for sexual identity you're using don't seem to get shorthand explanation. People are complex.
Also, why the fuck are people more upset about Kirk being bisexual than Kirk committing sex acts with another species? A sapient humanoid species usually, but...uh??
Thanks, Jessie, for yet more fun and thoughtful content! 💕
Ah, thank you for reminding us that many folks are sapiosexual, and that surely must be true of Spock!
The characters of Adira Tal and Senna Tal are so inspired. Given the inherently multigendered "Other Memory" of Trill symbionts, it now seems so obvious to make groundbreaking, wonderful characters.
11:00 "and this isn't even to mention that Star Trek The Motion Picture featured scenes like this" [advertisement for Harry Potter, here, on the Jessie Gender channel where we are deeply critical of its author]
I can't help but laugh sometimes at ad breaks.
I can't wait for this video. You're the actual best Jessie
Always excited to see you with a new video love you Jessie awesome intelligent video