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But then how are they supposed to combine financial control and psychological control into one to more effectively -micromanage and abuse- shepard their members?
@@ItBeThatWaySometimes yeah that’s true, that’s not really what I had in mind. I just thought reddit was edgy and drew in more atheists so it’s weird to see a Mormon forum I guess
being a mormon, one of the most harmful things to me was not being able to trust my own intuition. every decision I made had to be looked at through the lens of the church before I made it. it’s such an exhausting way to live, especially with hundreds of other mormons bringing you down when you’re seeking real advice. clearly the prayers aren’t working if these people are running to reddit for help. I just feel so so much sadness for the members genuinely struggling and constantly having that guilt reinforced.
Being a Mormon, one of the most harmful things to me was other people operating ENTIRELY off of their intuition, and then post de facto justifying their every moral whim as the spirit telling them what is and isn't "inspired". The spirit only ever punished me for being scrupulous and cautious, and bolstered them for being arrogant and unempathetic.
I grew up catholic and not Mormon but this hit the same for me. I still feel like I can’t trust my own decisions even though I now consider myself agnostic. I’m so unsure of myself in every aspect that I feel like I’m so behind the rest of the world.
Not a mormon, but as a Christian- trying to decipher what was coming from God, coming from the flesh, and coming from Satan was quite the mental gymnastics.
Never-mo here, but as a healthcare professional, this first comment about UTIs sent so many red flags about women’s health issues that are easily overlooked, but can lead to serious health issues. Wake up women and make your health important.
I cannot thank you enough for this comment. I left the church before I could be endowed, but I have always been susceptible to UTIs especially after I became sexually active. I remember talking to my LDS grandma about getting UTIs, she told me that she has the same issue too, so she only wore her garment tops & it was okay bc she talked to her bishop about it. But, what if her bishop was a militant douche bag? So she should be willing to risk her health (and potentially her life) because some dude with made up Jesus powers told her she could go to hell from trying to avoid UTIs and yeast infections ?🙄
Sometimes it definitely seems to me that mormon "forgiveness" standards just exist to force victims to excuse abusers. Forgiveness isn't the most important thing. Healing and healthy boundaries are what matters :P
My parents were at least reasonable about forgiveness. So from my parents I was just taught that it carries a weight on your heart and soul, and forgiving someone doesn't mean they shouldn't be punished, and it doesn't mean you have to be around them.
I got constant UTIs as a TBM wearing garments. Every couple of months I would be in the ER. I was very angry no one told me about the garments possibly causing UTIs.
Omg the part where the commenter says that sometimes bodies are weird and unhelpful? She's saying that if garments don't work for you, it's because there's something wrong with your body? Get out of here. Garments are weird and unhelpful.
i myself am not an ex-mormon, but an ex-fundie/evangelical, and hearing you two talk about the Church’s™️ bullshit so candidly is super cathartic. i myself have had the “replace god with kevin” talk with my devotedly religious father and he basically ended up saying “yeah it’s fucked up but it’s just how it is and we have to accept it or face hell” and it broke my heart. so many of our parents & grandparents have had their spirits completely broken by these abusive systems.
Ex Catholic here and I could relate to a lot of the video as well. Especially the “values must be your identity” stuff - when the guy host asked “what if your values are different than the church?” I remembered how I literally wanted to kill myself because I couldn’t cope with how different my own values were with what the church taught. I felt like I was destined for hell either way - either disobeying or leaving so why not speed it up? I feel better now that I’ve left, but sometimes I still wonder what’s gonna happen when I die. I’m just gonna have to accept whatever it is.
Garments for women are NOT designed with our health in mind. How does one wear garments well during your period?-they aren’t designed to work with normative female hygiene products, and tampons for the unmarried carry a LOT of stigma within the female quarters of the church. I remember when a leak used to cause me mental anguish because I was staining my garments cause that’s a big no no! Garments are to respected above your own body was the message I was sent from the temple workers. And that if you had to, as a last resort, you could wear a pair of regular underwear, as long as they were white, over the top of your garments which does nothing to stop pads from twisting inside the garment and sticking to your leg or other bits which aside from causing more leaks means you now have to rip the pad off from wherever it stuck which lead to some painful unplanned waxing situations. Also garments while pregnant?-no that was torture. Bunchy sweaty ill fitting and the need to keep buying new ones for my changing body. At 2.50 to 5 bucks a pop it was expensive because just incase someone forgot garments aren’t free no no no, you have to buy them and you’re encouraged to have children despite your financial situation so my hubby and I were broke and couldn’t afford to keep up with my changing body. Then the nursing tops …..another barrier to feeding your baby, I live in a cold climate where layering is a must so lift a sweater a shirt undershirt open a nursing bra and then try to open your nursing garments under a cover cause even your nursing body is sinful to expose. Garments are NOT made for women’s bodily needs, they aren’t affordable, they are gross. And to add insult to injury in the temple you’re told garments have never changed been around from the beginning of time which is crap!-they have changed waistband styles, added cup sizes and shortened leg and sleeve lengths so yeah they change. Oh how they change but never enough or in the right ways for women and their natural bodily needs.
When I took out my endowments, they told us that we were finally allowed to wear a bra under the garments. The group of new endowees asked what we were supposed to do for pads. They said keep the garments as close to the skin. I went against it and wore panties under my garments for a pad. Which, in one of my other comments, I noted that I can't stand most clothing on my skin, its uncomfortable. So 2 layers of underwear on top and bottom was almost torture. I think on your period your now allowed to wear panties under the garments.
I was told it didn't matter if I wore underwear under my Garments. I have never worn just Garments on the bottom, even after three years. I think there is a large movement happening, probably not in Utah though, where women are wearing WHEN and IF they can. it changed my world and my faith when I decided that not everything is 100% one way or the other for everyone of my faith. It shouldn't be anyways...
@gilliankay2476 I wonder if all of the generations of women who were drummed out of the church because it was totally unacceptable to bend the rules even just 20 years ago will get a free pass out of outer darkness. I'm not particularly happy about how much things are changing. 20 years ago all the rules were hard lines and we lost our faith from the terrible treatment when we couldn't be perfect. Now the church realizes that they can't keep the tithe money up if they don't bend the rules with younger generations so now you can just be kinda mormon and still be worthy of God's love. Kind sucks for all of us who were told otherwise.
@@amberinthemist7912 I'm really sorry that you have had to go through that, it is unacceptable and totally inappropriate. I know, unfortunately, that was and still in the case almost everywhere and it does make me sad. I have also been through some things that are similar and had leaders who behaved completely inappropriately. I think it's such a false notion that you're either 100% in or 100% out, that could be with religion, politics, work or otherwise. There are lots of women and men who are obviously worthy of their Heavenly Parents' love that sadly have not been encouraged or supported in any way. I hope this changes everywhere!
@@decorateddeerskull I had to wear a pad, panties, garment, and slacks (not dress because mosquitos) in steaming hot Asian tropical climate while proselyting as a missionary. Good times...
After quite some time hearing about garments (as a never mormon) it really strikes me how similar garments are to late Victorian combinations and men's undergarments in period. But women's were often split in the crotch, they were made to fit loosely (and corsets were designed to go over the combinations or chemise, so the bra wasn't a problem), they were available in many sizes and alterable, and they were always, always, always natural fiber (mostly cotton or, even better, linen or silk). Also, even for women who wore trousers or split shirts, the garments weren't going to show, and were rarely going to contribute to over and under heating at the bottom layer. I was gobsmacked when I learned that it's not easy to find them in even pure cotton. It's like the church just decided to update garments, but only in ways that make them worse, and don't fix the problem that they're using undergarments designed for different over layers: No making sure you can get ones that fit, and no sweat wicking or otherwise helpful fibers, oh, but the same length requirements! Edit: the crotch openings just reinforces my pet theory that garments are just Victorian underwear with special symbols, longer arms, and the wrong fabric.
They literally are. Mormonism developed in the 1800s and a lot of their traditions are a century + old. They probably use the same patterns as they always have
@@maddieb.4282 It's definitely the same skeleton. I think the pattern has to be different because they seem to sometimes use materials with stretch, and the fit seems a bit off. Either way though, uncannily similar.
Finding Sam and Tanner during my faith transition helped me build empathy in ways I could never do while in the church. Whenever I get to start a morning listening to these two, it's such a beautiful way to ground myself in empathy.
I never went on a mission but I prepped for one. The first lesson that we were supposed to learn and teach was about "The Eternal Plan of Happiness". This is around the time I had my faith crisis. I realized that I wasn't happy and no amount of going through the motions made me happy. I felt unworthy to teach the gospel because the way I was taught I should feel didn't mesh with how I actually felt. My family seems to wonder why I don't come around anymore. When I came out as gay, my Mother love bombed me and made it clear in many talks with her that she had preferred that I stay in the closet and keep my feelings to myself. My sister doesn't want to hear anything from me unless it is going to strengthen her faith. They seem perfectly happy with me being a hollow husk of a man putting on a smile and never expressing the immense emotional pain I feel just being in their presence. They want me to come around and be a part of their lives but they don't want the actual me. It hurt so much when I slowly came to realize that the person that they loved didn't exist. I love these people so much and yet I feel like a stranger in their households. There was a time that I wanted to be accepted for who I was by my family but I've come to understand that my family will never change. They've made that clear to me by telling me directly. I'm going through the process of separating myself emotionally from that part of my life. I married my wonderful husband and I have a family that understands me and accepts me for who I am. I wouldn't give them up for anything in the world!
What a very poignant story. My heart goes out to you in immeasurable quantities of compassion empathy and loving kindness. You could use nurturing not malathion. Maybe one day people will have a new insight or epiphany and give you the dignity, respect and civility afforded another human being. Many blessings for you and your husband in all your lifetime adventures. 💙🌸🦋
I'm so glad that you are in a loving relationship with your spouse & new family. Today you are beyond the grip of the conditional love of your birth family even if the sorrow lingers. Tomorrow you may very well be asked to support one of them in a faith crisis as they clearly live in denial of the clash between church & real love of family. You model healthy healing for those who know you. Best wishes for your personal journey.
I'm sorry your family treat you that way. I was grateful to have parents who still love me after I came out as pansexual. And what I've come to terms with regarding the plan of happiness, is the keyword happiness. I believe if God is as loving as we're taught, then I shouldn't have to follow guidelines that make me feel horrible. This life might be the shortest in the eternal perspective, but you shouldn't have to slog through nothing but crap in this life. Suffering is apart of life, everyone suffers in life to some degree or another, but you shouldn't intentionally torture yourself on top of the crap you can't control
Oh geez. I don’t know how that would help like with wearing pants I just hate never wearing underwear. I mean granted I’m a transman so some stuff is different even though I haven’t gotten any bottom surgery. But just it gives me shivers it sounds so uncomfortable. I know I just didn’t have any clean underwear a few times and I wore jeans and the seam on the crotch just kept irritating everything sensitive down there. Was not fun. Though I do think that womens underwear that isn’t like meant to be sexy or whatever can be more comfortable than mens because mine seem to ride up my thighs a lot. Very annoying when it gets all bunched up. But like I get why but I don’t get why that would help
stumbling upon this channel made me openly weep. even though i've been an ex-mo since 13, i've spent the past 7 years being angry and trying to process and uncover my trauma, then backtracking and gaslighting myself into believing it's not that bad, that the fact that my family still attends the church means that i'm overreacting. i know deep down that it's irredeemable, but i've spent so long being gaslit by the church that i have no confidence in my intuition and feelings. thank you for making content about this.
They way you described the knot loosening upon leaving the church was exactly how I felt not wearing the hijaab for the first time outside in like 7 years when I was a practising Muslim. I seriously didn't realise the amount of anxiety I had built up.
Garments are a big reason my mom left the church. She has a condition where her nerves flare up all over her body, and the material the bottoms were made of flared up the nerve pain only where they touched her skin. But that’s still a horrible place for nerve pain. So she got in trouble by her bishop for not wearing them and she just gave up
My mom who was raised hardcore catholic I’m realizing taught me a lot of the Mormon values you guys talked about. Not being able to change your mind and have a change of feelings, or not being able to take back my word when I made a promise…these were religious/spiritual originated things that were super traumatizing growing up
Oh my god, the first one hits close to home. I became disabled on my mission (didn't knock my faith one bit cause I'm an *idiot*). It was so hard for me to physically get to church. I pushed myself way too hard to go and it not only made me sicker, but I felt so much guilt when I wasn't able to go. Even when they started broadcasting it, I wouldn't be able to wake up or stay awake for it. After years I "realized" that God knew I was doing my best so he wasn't going to punish me for not being able to go to church. Doesn't make since now because if I'd truly believed, my faith could have made it happen. I hope the lady is able to rationalize a way to avoid yeast infections
It wasn't church/religion related, but I had a similar situation where I became disabled doing something and then felt guilty when I was too sick to keep hurting myself.
@@maddieb.4282 well there's a big difference, and yes, it was a major point they made, actually. It's confusing how the majority of the comment section and even the person that made the video keep saying one thing at one time and something different later.
OMG I LOVE TAnner's description of the knot in his stomach that he was so used to. I grew up with that panic and didnt know what was wrong with me for many years. You guys are awesome!
"copium" is like the medicine one takes to cope. It's generally used in a disparaging sense to ridicule someone who is dealing with an unfortunate or undesirable situation.
Yeah, also if someone projects onto someone else to make themselves feel better. Like someone making fun of someone for being fat even tho they're bald. Bullying would be their copium.
My boyfriend believes in God and I'm an Atheist and we don't try to change each other. Instead we have long amazing conversations that helps us understand one another. Every other guy I've be with has tried to change that about me. He accepts it and likes to hear my point of view
I’ve had two catholic bfs. One was very religious (the cross necklace stayed on during sex, mother Mary shrine in his apartment) and was wonderful wrt my atheism! I asked him lots of questions and he never got offended. Never tried to change me, either. The less-strict catholic bf legit made me cry regarding being an atheist lol. That one definitely wanted to change me. Happy for you and your bf!! It’s great seeing people respect one another’s beliefs.
For me the only way a different religion would work is if they could work together. Like I’m technically an atheist but I think gods could exist, any of them maybe even all of them. I don’t and won’t ever worship any of them even if I discover and know for certain they are real. I’m technically buddhist and part of the SGI which you can be and also exist as a member of another religion. It’s not mutually exclusive. It might conflict but it won’t always conflict by it’s nature. It basically just says to take responsibility and you’re in charge of your life and actions and you’re in charge of your fate or whatever. Basically boils down to you’re in charge of yourself and be a decent person. Nothing else. So if someone was idk pagan and thought gods were real but it wasn’t required to worship them to find happiness or salvation or whatever I’m good with that. If they’re catholic and think you can only find happiness or salvation or eternal life if you worship their God then nah we won’t work. Or if they think that they’re not in charge of their fate and it all comes down to god
You should have people write in their experiences with old roommates at BYU and BYUI… I have some good stories about some crazy hyper Mormon roommates!
I NEVER got UTIs until I started wearing garments. I couldn't sleep with them on so I would hold them to sleep (like a teddy bear). I'm glad I left barely a year after I got in. Right around the time I found this channel. I feel like since leaving I lost parts of my relationships with my siblings, so I definitely look up to both of you as an older brother/ sister to help navigate all this. A million times thank you for what ya'll do. You're my comfort channel now
Lmao! I can I only imagine the kind of rationalization you must've went thru to tell yourself that holding them while you sleep is what you must do to be excused from wearing them.
@@orphanblackops4608 my family did that with Catholicism. My parents were Four Square pastors (protestant) and converted to Catholicism when I was 8, my sisters and I were baptized when I was 9. As of now I’m the only one who’s left and only one of my 4 sisters even knows. She’s also the only other one questioning everything right now as she discovered she’s bi and has a secret girlfriend.
“Love…It’s not something you give and take away!” Had me immediately remembering a worship song with the literal lyrics,”he gives and takes away” I remember people singing this in church, hands in the air and/or over their hearts, eyes closed, as if it wasn’t the most wildly fucked up concept to sing in praise
Watching this for the second time and commenting again because this part is relevant for me today: the not separating your beliefs from your identity is what one going through right now. I didn’t know how close I was to religion and now that I can’t make myself believe in it, I feel like I have nothing and am nothing.
I’ve never been religious but I emphasize deeply with people affected by religious abuse, cults etc. You two are bright shining examples of where love, intelligence and determination can take you, though I’m sure the path here has been rough as hell. And the deprogramming work never stops.
Oh my god Tanner, I relate 100% to what you said about the constant anxiety you had in the church. I was actually literally writing about the same thing for a blog post today and it’s amazing to hear that I’m not the only one. It was like a constant baseline emotion of anxiety and depression that I didn’t even know I had until I left the church and thought “oh hey I don’t have to pray or read scriptures anymore”. Same as you, it was a physical feeling. Like an immense weight lifting. Now, what I consider my “baseline” emotion is a general state of constant content. It’s amazing! I’m so happy for you that you could be free, and now be living without that heavy, heavy feeling of anxiety in the church
She said he was incredibly emotionally cruel....and then moved hours away from family and friends? That's a red flag. HAS he changed? Or is it that you don't have outside influence anymore? Then she said she's not leaving him...she's just trapping herself in a toxic environment. That's for her to deal with.
I spent the first 18 years of my life in the lds church, but knew I didn’t believe in it/support it by the time I was in middle school. Began healing from it, while STILL experiencing it every Sunday, around the age of 16. Immediately stopped attending when I moved out. Love my family but that church is wild. I’m still not totally over all that has been done to me by the church, but I’m so much happier and comfortable with myself and I know I’ll be there fully one day. Thank you for your videos, I relate to them so much!
I love Sam's little talk of what love means to her. I have struggled firstly with finding a source of love to anchor myself on after unsubscribing to the concept of this all loving being in the sky, and secondly loving those that have failed and hurt me deeply. Due to early childhood experiences, I may never be able to fully let my emotional guard down enough to have that universal love for everyone, but I do hope to keep expanding my circle of acceptance and empathy. That concept that "if I am not feeling the love I need, it's because I am doing something wrong. Because it's too scary to acknowledge that maybe (some person) just can't give us the love we need" really hit the nail in the head and let me look at my own relational anxiety in a new light.
You two are such an example of deconstructing, healing, and rebuilding!! Its so inspiring. Also, a question- have you all read all about love by bell hooks?
33:00 oh MAN that's a great way of talking about addiction!!! For example, with my OCD, it's the exact same, but the high is the ability to operate normally. I can see how that applies to the church. That was really insightful
45:00 "copeium", combo of two words, "cope" and "opium". Definition: that which we rely on to stay comfortably in the dark, often in a manner which is addictive ✨
Another thing, elder Kevin there, referring to the growing problem with people disregarding their covenants? Church leaders have been saying that from day one, all the time. It just serves to create a sense of alarm, and to create an us vs. them mindset, and to put members on the lookout for non conforming individuals, as scapegoats for what feels wrong in the church.
My boyfriend told me that the extortion is specifically racketeering, like the mob. "Wouldn't want anything to happen to your soul, huh buddy?" - The Church
The poly/cotton crotch would pill up and create a scratchy surface that would sandpaper my lady parts no matter how fast or slow I would walk. Super icky
Reddit: Don't make your beliefs your identity! (That's culty :P) Mormons: _panicking_ Wait, my beliefs are already my identity...quick, I must come up with a reason why it has to be that way so I don't have to feel the cognitive dissonance!
I mean, you are literally taught (in every major religion - mine was Catholicism) that God comes first and above all you must obey the doctrine and the church (both are God). I was suicidal for years when I went through my faith crisis because you *know* the truth and are actively *choosing* to go against it when you feel/believe something contrary, even if it doesnt make sense. After all, God works in mysterious ways and we can’t comprehend everything, so choosing to disobey is just showing you dont know anything.
The conditional love thing is so real. Even when i was at my most scared of coming out to my homophobic parents, I wasn't worried about them not LOVING me anymore, i was afraid they wouldn't LIKE me or that they'd be ashamed/disappointed
You guys touched on so many important points! Ihad my faith crisis because I was extremely depressed in spite of doing everything right in the Mormon church. Turns out limiting myself to only dating men with god complexes and believing I was meant to be a breeding creature for God coupled with believing that God loved blind /unquestioning individuals above the more curious/rebellious ones really made me depressed about this existence. Keep up the good work.
this is the first time i’ve seen someone talk about mormonism from an inside perspective, and god, i never realized what a cult it was. i’m an ex christian myself, evangelical, and i had very similar experiences to the guilt cycle you talked about here. i was never conditioned by my environment however, my conditioning was internal (scrupulosity ocd), and it makes me so angry to know that people are getting away with this in the name of god. this was really cathartic, thank you.
Glen L. Pace wrote a book about his trip to Ethiopia. An African Journey. This factual, passionate publication later in life finished his career as a GA due to his honest report about the church in Ethiopia/Africa. He was demoted to Emeritus.😮
We need a tee-shirt. I got banned for suggesting someone consult with a secular mental health professional because they were describing symptoms of depression. Make the shirt. I'll buy it.
I am thankful for my job as a High Rise window washer in Sacramento Ca ..it is normal and often to have 90 100 degree days during summer And I was suffering so bad I knew if I kept wearing my mormon underwear I would literally die !!! So I stopped and never went back !😅
The advice to keep beliefs separate from identity is so important! Growth requires change, and change is so much harder if it shakes your sense of self.
In Catholicism there is an idea of “mortal” vs “venial” sin. If you die with a venial sin unconfessed, you have a chance at heaven, but if you die with a MORTAL sin you are damned to hell. So my scrupulous ass found a catholic Reddit thread presenting a scenario in which the question was: if you JUMPED IN FRONT OF A MOVING CAR TO SAVE YOUR CHILD’S LIFE, but had a mortal sin on your heart, would you still go to heaven?? And people were legit debating this. I am so glad I got out 😅
@@arowace498 Mortal sins include breaking any of the Ten Commandments, and also things like masturbation, heresy, apostasy, divorce and abortion. Also you have to be aware that you are doing it and a willing offender so you can't commit a mortal sin accidentally. Source: I also grew up Catholic.
Have mormon garments been a thing since the very beginning, like with Joseph Smith? It's really sad to me that people can't make their own. Making something with your own hands can be a beautiful spiritual experience.
this is so sad how they force fear and shame onto people. It was especially saddening when people try to get help with a problem they’re having, people reply with “oh you just must not understand the significance yet here is the meaning of why you must follow.” Obviously they know that’s why they’re trying to get advice on how to deal with it?? It just seems very demeaning
I definitely relate to what time said about feeling released from being so unknowingly wound up. When I had my faith crisis, I didn't even conceive the possibility that it might change how I feel about myself and how I feel day to day, so it was a shocking to me as it seems to have been for Tanner to experience that 'lightness' in nearly every aspect - mind, body, and soul. Three years out now, and that feeling has stayed consistent. I've heard it said the most people have a level of baseline happiness and that regardless of what good may happen in your life that temporarily inflates that, such as marriage, having children, or getting a new job opportunity, the newness will eventually wear off at some point and you will end up back at your "baseline." (This is where the hedonic treadmill comes in, supposedly.) I do believe there's truth in that, but I've rarely heard people acknowledge that there are things and life situations that can legitimately be the cause of a chronically lower baseline for happiness, that once resolved, can permanently increase someone's baseline. And I think leaving the control of a high demanding religion is definitely one of them
I have a friend whose physician told her to stop wearing her bottom garments to help with her utis. A doctor’s advice is sometimes enough to allow members to deviate from the norm. I have had depression my entire adult life - 43 years. Looking back, I feel like I was standing in the rain reading my scriptures and praying for help instead of getting an umbrella or going inside. The gospel teachings, and my interpretation, caused and perpetuated my depression. It’s so sad. I really want the Mormon God to be real. BTW, I remember in your song Tiers of Heaven, you talked about marrying a Kevin. I thought of that when you talked about a Kevin in this episode.
I struggled heavily with depression while I was on my mission. I think the cognitive dissonance between how I was feeling and what I was teaching and had been taught about the only true happiness being in the church really exacerbated the depression. On top of that, I was paired with a companion who I can only describe as toxicly positive really pushed me into a dark place. I really appreciate you calling bullshit on these toxic, unhealthy ideologies that permiate the Mormon church and its doctrine.
It’s kinda funny how the answers and problems are so similar to really any religion. I was raised Catholic (ironically converted from Protestantism) but listening to these Reddit answers just echo what I was told as well. The one that hit me the most was “what if your values are different than the church - then who do you follow?” This led me to be suicidal for many years actually because I felt like I was going to hell either way - living for my values or leaving the church knowing it was the one true faith. I now consider myself agnostic but I still struggle with making decisions and even figuring out what my real values are. Even still it’s easier for me to just follow what other’s around me believe than to form my own opinions.
I feel like the first answer to the first question was a subtle, wink-wink-nudge-nudge suggestion for the OP to not wear her garments. To wear them as much as you can equating to if you're not able to then don't and it's between you and Heavenly Father. It's crappy that an actually decent answer had to be all cloak and dagger unless they want to get banned though.
WHAT- I HAD NO CLUE ABT THE INTERRACIAL MARRIAGE THING! damm- cuz im half chinese half white and my parents were married in the temple...i mean we do live in california so its probably not as bad as utah.. i just remembered my brother also married a white woman in the temple...in utah
When you guys were at BYUI did they have the hallway displays on evolution? I’m there rn (undercover 🤫) and every time I pass one it makes me giggle a little
NeverMo here... Are the garmies made of a synthetic fabric? That for some can hold in heat and cause sweating. I can't wear anything but cotton "panties" (sorry Sam!!) anymore. This poor lady. I really feel for her.
@@ZelphOntheShelf I would think that the "Men in Charge" would be on top (pun intended!) of this. I mean, the Who-Who has to stay healthy so they can perform their "Patriarchal Duties" without a pesky infection getting in the way... 🤔🤣
Have you ever seen those laundry bags that they issue to prison inmates? that synthetic mesh they made gym shorts out of in the 70's? Yeah, garments are a step below that, and they have magic sharpie symbols on them. They are too holy to stack on top of the dryer though, so I guess they are a real treat! The garments must be burned if they touch the floor lol
I had the same experience with anxiety. I don’t know how to describe to my religious friends that when I left the church my constant anxiety just…disappeared
That last comment of the second question was really interesting to me. Love by itself cannot get you over differences of opinion on religion or which church your kids will attend. Only the church can do that. It really cheapens love as a concept
The first post really resonated with me even as a nevermo. I live in aus, where it gets very hot. I run very hot, I don't know what it is but I'm fine in tee shirt and shorts at like 5C (Most people here grab the puffer jackets at 15C). My old school uniform was a shirt and a tunic over it in winter (read april to september. It can get to 30C in september). As I got older (really started being a problem from about 9) the uniform was just too hot from me and I was getting heat flushes like I was going through menopause and feeling angry putting the uniform on in the morning, to the point I started faking sick to get out of school sometimes. The school let me wear the PE uniform in the primary school when I was 11 because I couldn't handle it but they weren't that accomedating in the secondary school. I ended up leaving the school because I couldn't cope. I really feel for the poster. At least I didn't feel like I was risking my soul by leaving the school.
As a non-Mormon, I have a question about garments. What is the purpose and theology of garments? All I hear about them is it’s a commandment / covenant. I haven’t heard what the purpose is.
I really hate going into the faithful subreddits because while symptoms may start off as kind of funny it ends up getting really tragically sad and all too real the harm and damage and lack of critical thinking caused by Mormonism. I think for me personally the most triggering thing about this episode so far is the fact that I that I am one who did not struggle nearly as much as other women do with the garment. So much so, that I steadily wore them for nearly 2 years AFTER I no longer believed, mainly to blend in with my family and community here in Utah. Even now there are occasions that I WANT to wear them, such as pajamas in the middle of summer when my air conditioning can't keep up with high Utah temps. For me, some of the styles and fabric are at that perfect point of making me feel covered while also being thin enough as to not trap in additional body heat. That TMI being said, the most triggering aspect of this episode for me is that I CANNOT escape the sound of my own voice hearing the sanctimonious comments from people who clearly have no idea the level of pain and discomfort experienced by some in wearing the garment, as I have either said exactly or very similar things in the past when I was fully believing. I recently read a comment of a woman who experienced similar troubles with UTIs as she said something to the effect of "I urinated blood at times for DECADES because I didn't want to break my 'covenants'." It makes me truly ill.
GUY!! when I told a stake president that I was wearing my husbands garments. he said the lord was telling him (right that second) that in this day and age were people are confused on their genders I wasn’t allowed to wear my husbands garments. My bishop had said it was totally fine. 😐
I love that Tanner always has t shirt ideas, it's also how I think but my social circles don't seem to. I'm happy to see another human apparently think the way I do regularly.
If the garments are all cheap polyester and you have to wear them all the time I’m thinking that douche sales and vaginal smell shame must be alive and well in Utah. Polyester doesn’t breathe and fosters bacteria growth, for some women, myself included, 5 min in polyester pants and/or underwear leads to some very unpleasant smells and can be a cause of uti and yeast infections. And smells can lead to shame and douching which also causes yeast infections. Universities should be using mormons to study the long term effects of wearing multiple layers of polyester over ones genitals all year.
I thought the Bible says that mixed blend fabrics are a sin? How the heck is Polyester supposed to be holy? Definitely sounds like a scam to make one person a little richer
@@morgan4574 it does, and ironically that’s one of the arbitrary rules we should have been following, if all our fabrics were made of only one kind of fibre we would have mastered cloth recycling ages ago.
Reddit is very angry in my experience, I stopped using it because it felt like an echo chamber of negativity. I mostly used it for video game related stuff though. I have noticed if you are in a less represented group, you can easily get steamrolled (such as being gay in a straight dominated space, excuse me for not caring about someone's rack size)
I never understood when people say "turn to the scriptures" to solve major problems. Like, how is reading what is essentially Bible fan fiction gonna help overcome my very real need to pay rent?
Lol years ago I tweeted something similar to that "garbage take" they were talking about. Obviously I am an exmo, that's no secret but I posted it with no specific language and my Mormon family members took it so personally as if I was telling them directly that they should doubt their beliefs. All I said was that if your belief system makes you feel bad then you should reevaluate ....but if the message were made by a Mormon and directed at non-Mormons, they'd have no problem with it
I once shut down a very nice Mormon man by explaining that I was spiritual but not religious and pointing out the things that he said that I agreed with, then pointing out that since in Mormonism reincarnation exists, then perhaps this was not my lifetime to receive his message and it would be a potential issue to interfere with God's timing.
Can I just say, and I know this isn't related to the topic of the video, but I really want a Paddington Bear painting like what you two have behind you?
r/mormon is a mix of exmormons and jack mormons so that one tends to be better than r/lds or r/latterdaysaints. Every time I check out those subs I just get depressed and absolutely hate them. I thankfully never had to wear garments, and I'm so grateful for that.
For a woman who is also in early menopause, I want to acknowledge how much your body completely changes. Aside from the weight changes, the sexual health changes, and the mental health changes - and just to talk about the overheating thing - for anyone trying to appreciate this - imagine having to be fully dressed and exercising inside a small humid bathroom, like after you take a shower.
This video is very well presented, I’ll definitely be watching more of your videos. Also it has a lot of ads, I hope you guys are actually getting money from that because I know this type of video can often be demonetized 😬
I could never be Mormon considering I literally MUST go commando otherwise within a few days..yeast infection. Those poor girls/women! I wish I could take away all their brainwashed guilt!!
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Why do you need money? You just sit there.
If the church requires you to wear garments they should provide them for free to members. It’s not like they can’t afford to do that
But then how are they supposed to combine financial control and psychological control into one to more effectively -micromanage and abuse- shepard their members?
Theyre expensive too. I think around 25 to 30$ for a top or bottom and them another 25 to 30 for the other half
@@decorateddeerskull
>steal 10% income from every follower
>force them to buy mass produced UTI causing magic pyjamas
>prophet
And let you alter them if they don’t fit right
They aren't that expensive, at least in the US. Under $5 per tops and $5 for bottoms.
mormons and reddit are two things that I did not think could coexist
@@ItBeThatWaySometimes yeah that’s true, that’s not really what I had in mind. I just thought reddit was edgy and drew in more atheists so it’s weird to see a Mormon forum I guess
@@ItBeThatWaySometimes okay. I don’t go on there I wouldn’t really know
being a mormon, one of the most harmful things to me was not being able to trust my own intuition. every decision I made had to be looked at through the lens of the church before I made it. it’s such an exhausting way to live, especially with hundreds of other mormons bringing you down when you’re seeking real advice. clearly the prayers aren’t working if these people are running to reddit for help. I just feel so so much sadness for the members genuinely struggling and constantly having that guilt reinforced.
Being a Mormon, one of the most harmful things to me was other people operating ENTIRELY off of their intuition, and then post de facto justifying their every moral whim as the spirit telling them what is and isn't "inspired". The spirit only ever punished me for being scrupulous and cautious, and bolstered them for being arrogant and unempathetic.
@@aquilabirddamned if you do, damned if you don't kinda thing?
I grew up catholic and not Mormon but this hit the same for me. I still feel like I can’t trust my own decisions even though I now consider myself agnostic. I’m so unsure of myself in every aspect that I feel like I’m so behind the rest of the world.
Same. I went to therapy with LDS services because I was struggling with lots of things. And my therapists asked if I'd talked to my bishop.
Not a mormon, but as a Christian- trying to decipher what was coming from God, coming from the flesh, and coming from Satan was quite the mental gymnastics.
Never-mo here, but as a healthcare professional, this first comment about UTIs sent so many red flags about women’s health issues that are easily overlooked, but can lead to serious health issues. Wake up women and make your health important.
I cannot thank you enough for this comment. I left the church before I could be endowed, but I have always been susceptible to UTIs especially after I became sexually active. I remember talking to my LDS grandma about getting UTIs, she told me that she has the same issue too, so she only wore her garment tops & it was okay bc she talked to her bishop about it. But, what if her bishop was a militant douche bag? So she should be willing to risk her health (and potentially her life) because some dude with made up Jesus powers told her she could go to hell from trying to avoid UTIs and yeast infections ?🙄
Sometimes it definitely seems to me that mormon "forgiveness" standards just exist to force victims to excuse abusers. Forgiveness isn't the most important thing. Healing and healthy boundaries are what matters :P
I’ve felt this abt forgiveness complexes as a nevermo :/ I can’t imagine how severe it is under Mormonism
@@Lucifersfursona It's remarkably severe unfortunately 😔
It's just for public humiliation. Jesus immediately forgave the woman who committed adultery when she repented; he never made it a process
My parents were at least reasonable about forgiveness. So from my parents I was just taught that it carries a weight on your heart and soul, and forgiving someone doesn't mean they shouldn't be punished, and it doesn't mean you have to be around them.
@@Lucifersfursona i literally struggle to understand what forgiveness even is thanks to Mormonism lol
I got constant UTIs as a TBM wearing garments. Every couple of months I would be in the ER. I was very angry no one told me about the garments possibly causing UTIs.
Ugh :(
that makes me so sad. UTIs are so incredibly painful and unbearable :(
its really just flawless icing that these magic underpants were so fucking obviously designed by men with no thought of women in mind
My mom wears actual underwear to prevent UTI’s with her garments
Omg the part where the commenter says that sometimes bodies are weird and unhelpful? She's saying that if garments don't work for you, it's because there's something wrong with your body? Get out of here. Garments are weird and unhelpful.
The body exists to serve the garment!!!!!
i myself am not an ex-mormon, but an ex-fundie/evangelical, and hearing you two talk about the Church’s™️ bullshit so candidly is super cathartic. i myself have had the “replace god with kevin” talk with my devotedly religious father and he basically ended up saying “yeah it’s fucked up but it’s just how it is and we have to accept it or face hell” and it broke my heart. so many of our parents & grandparents have had their spirits completely broken by these abusive systems.
Ex Catholic here and I could relate to a lot of the video as well. Especially the “values must be your identity” stuff - when the guy host asked “what if your values are different than the church?” I remembered how I literally wanted to kill myself because I couldn’t cope with how different my own values were with what the church taught. I felt like I was destined for hell either way - either disobeying or leaving so why not speed it up?
I feel better now that I’ve left, but sometimes I still wonder what’s gonna happen when I die. I’m just gonna have to accept whatever it is.
Garments for women are NOT designed with our health in mind. How does one wear garments well during your period?-they aren’t designed to work with normative female hygiene products, and tampons for the unmarried carry a LOT of stigma within the female quarters of the church. I remember when a leak used to cause me mental anguish because I was staining my garments cause that’s a big no no! Garments are to respected above your own body was the message I was sent from the temple workers. And that if you had to, as a last resort, you could wear a pair of regular underwear, as long as they were white, over the top of your garments which does nothing to stop pads from twisting inside the garment and sticking to your leg or other bits which aside from causing more leaks means you now have to rip the pad off from wherever it stuck which lead to some painful unplanned waxing situations. Also garments while pregnant?-no that was torture. Bunchy sweaty ill fitting and the need to keep buying new ones for my changing body. At 2.50 to 5 bucks a pop it was expensive because just incase someone forgot garments aren’t free no no no, you have to buy them and you’re encouraged to have children despite your financial situation so my hubby and I were broke and couldn’t afford to keep up with my changing body. Then the nursing tops …..another barrier to feeding your baby, I live in a cold climate where layering is a must so lift a sweater a shirt undershirt open a nursing bra and then try to open your nursing garments under a cover cause even your nursing body is sinful to expose. Garments are NOT made for women’s bodily needs, they aren’t affordable, they are gross. And to add insult to injury in the temple you’re told garments have never changed been around from the beginning of time which is crap!-they have changed waistband styles, added cup sizes and shortened leg and sleeve lengths so yeah they change. Oh how they change but never enough or in the right ways for women and their natural bodily needs.
When I took out my endowments, they told us that we were finally allowed to wear a bra under the garments. The group of new endowees asked what we were supposed to do for pads. They said keep the garments as close to the skin. I went against it and wore panties under my garments for a pad. Which, in one of my other comments, I noted that I can't stand most clothing on my skin, its uncomfortable. So 2 layers of underwear on top and bottom was almost torture. I think on your period your now allowed to wear panties under the garments.
I was told it didn't matter if I wore underwear under my Garments. I have never worn just Garments on the bottom, even after three years. I think there is a large movement happening, probably not in Utah though, where women are wearing WHEN and IF they can. it changed my world and my faith when I decided that not everything is 100% one way or the other for everyone of my faith. It shouldn't be anyways...
@gilliankay2476 I wonder if all of the generations of women who were drummed out of the church because it was totally unacceptable to bend the rules even just 20 years ago will get a free pass out of outer darkness. I'm not particularly happy about how much things are changing. 20 years ago all the rules were hard lines and we lost our faith from the terrible treatment when we couldn't be perfect. Now the church realizes that they can't keep the tithe money up if they don't bend the rules with younger generations so now you can just be kinda mormon and still be worthy of God's love. Kind sucks for all of us who were told otherwise.
@@amberinthemist7912 I'm really sorry that you have had to go through that, it is unacceptable and totally inappropriate. I know, unfortunately, that was and still in the case almost everywhere and it does make me sad. I have also been through some things that are similar and had leaders who behaved completely inappropriately. I think it's such a false notion that you're either 100% in or 100% out, that could be with religion, politics, work or otherwise. There are lots of women and men who are obviously worthy of their Heavenly Parents' love that sadly have not been encouraged or supported in any way. I hope this changes everywhere!
@@decorateddeerskull I had to wear a pad, panties, garment, and slacks (not dress because mosquitos) in steaming hot Asian tropical climate while proselyting as a missionary. Good times...
I've never heard about garments causing UTIs. It makes me curious about my mom, a faithful garment wearer, and her nearly constant UTIs
After quite some time hearing about garments (as a never mormon) it really strikes me how similar garments are to late Victorian combinations and men's undergarments in period. But women's were often split in the crotch, they were made to fit loosely (and corsets were designed to go over the combinations or chemise, so the bra wasn't a problem), they were available in many sizes and alterable, and they were always, always, always natural fiber (mostly cotton or, even better, linen or silk). Also, even for women who wore trousers or split shirts, the garments weren't going to show, and were rarely going to contribute to over and under heating at the bottom layer. I was gobsmacked when I learned that it's not easy to find them in even pure cotton. It's like the church just decided to update garments, but only in ways that make them worse, and don't fix the problem that they're using undergarments designed for different over layers: No making sure you can get ones that fit, and no sweat wicking or otherwise helpful fibers, oh, but the same length requirements!
Edit: the crotch openings just reinforces my pet theory that garments are just Victorian underwear with special symbols, longer arms, and the wrong fabric.
It makes so much sense as they are trying to still live in that century.The fact that they are not fully cotton is mind boggling
They literally are. Mormonism developed in the 1800s and a lot of their traditions are a century + old. They probably use the same patterns as they always have
@@maddieb.4282 It's definitely the same skeleton. I think the pattern has to be different because they seem to sometimes use materials with stretch, and the fit seems a bit off. Either way though, uncannily similar.
Finding Sam and Tanner during my faith transition helped me build empathy in ways I could never do while in the church. Whenever I get to start a morning listening to these two, it's such a beautiful way to ground myself in empathy.
😭😭😭
Agreed!
Agreed!
I never went on a mission but I prepped for one. The first lesson that we were supposed to learn and teach was about "The Eternal Plan of Happiness". This is around the time I had my faith crisis. I realized that I wasn't happy and no amount of going through the motions made me happy. I felt unworthy to teach the gospel because the way I was taught I should feel didn't mesh with how I actually felt.
My family seems to wonder why I don't come around anymore. When I came out as gay, my Mother love bombed me and made it clear in many talks with her that she had preferred that I stay in the closet and keep my feelings to myself. My sister doesn't want to hear anything from me unless it is going to strengthen her faith. They seem perfectly happy with me being a hollow husk of a man putting on a smile and never expressing the immense emotional pain I feel just being in their presence. They want me to come around and be a part of their lives but they don't want the actual me. It hurt so much when I slowly came to realize that the person that they loved didn't exist. I love these people so much and yet I feel like a stranger in their households.
There was a time that I wanted to be accepted for who I was by my family but I've come to understand that my family will never change. They've made that clear to me by telling me directly. I'm going through the process of separating myself emotionally from that part of my life. I married my wonderful husband and I have a family that understands me and accepts me for who I am. I wouldn't give them up for anything in the world!
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What a very poignant story. My heart goes out to you in immeasurable quantities of compassion empathy and loving kindness. You could use nurturing not malathion. Maybe one day people will have a new insight or epiphany and give you the dignity, respect and civility afforded another human being. Many blessings for you and your husband in all your lifetime adventures. 💙🌸🦋
Dear one, holding space for your pain and process of letting go of those people you love and now have to do so from far away.
I'm so glad that you are in a loving relationship with your spouse & new family. Today you are beyond the grip of the conditional love of your birth family even if the sorrow lingers. Tomorrow you may very well be asked to support one of them in a faith crisis as they clearly live in denial of the clash between church & real love of family. You model healthy healing for those who know you. Best wishes for your personal journey.
I'm sorry your family treat you that way. I was grateful to have parents who still love me after I came out as pansexual.
And what I've come to terms with regarding the plan of happiness, is the keyword happiness. I believe if God is as loving as we're taught, then I shouldn't have to follow guidelines that make me feel horrible. This life might be the shortest in the eternal perspective, but you shouldn't have to slog through nothing but crap in this life. Suffering is apart of life, everyone suffers in life to some degree or another, but you shouldn't intentionally torture yourself on top of the crap you can't control
My OBGYN recommended that I stop wearing underwear altogether because of how often I was getting yeast infections, I’ve never gone back.
Oh geez. I don’t know how that would help like with wearing pants I just hate never wearing underwear. I mean granted I’m a transman so some stuff is different even though I haven’t gotten any bottom surgery. But just it gives me shivers it sounds so uncomfortable. I know I just didn’t have any clean underwear a few times and I wore jeans and the seam on the crotch just kept irritating everything sensitive down there. Was not fun. Though I do think that womens underwear that isn’t like meant to be sexy or whatever can be more comfortable than mens because mine seem to ride up my thighs a lot. Very annoying when it gets all bunched up. But like I get why but I don’t get why that would help
stumbling upon this channel made me openly weep. even though i've been an ex-mo since 13, i've spent the past 7 years being angry and trying to process and uncover my trauma, then backtracking and gaslighting myself into believing it's not that bad, that the fact that my family still attends the church means that i'm overreacting. i know deep down that it's irredeemable, but i've spent so long being gaslit by the church that i have no confidence in my intuition and feelings. thank you for making content about this.
Ahhh, sending so much love 💗💗💗💗💗
They way you described the knot loosening upon leaving the church was exactly how I felt not wearing the hijaab for the first time outside in like 7 years when I was a practising Muslim. I seriously didn't realise the amount of anxiety I had built up.
That sounds like an incredible experience. How did you decide one day to go outside without hijab? Was it a special occasion?
Garments are a big reason my mom left the church. She has a condition where her nerves flare up all over her body, and the material the bottoms were made of flared up the nerve pain only where they touched her skin. But that’s still a horrible place for nerve pain. So she got in trouble by her bishop for not wearing them and she just gave up
My mom who was raised hardcore catholic I’m realizing taught me a lot of the Mormon values you guys talked about. Not being able to change your mind and have a change of feelings, or not being able to take back my word when I made a promise…these were religious/spiritual originated things that were super traumatizing growing up
Oh my god, the first one hits close to home. I became disabled on my mission (didn't knock my faith one bit cause I'm an *idiot*). It was so hard for me to physically get to church. I pushed myself way too hard to go and it not only made me sicker, but I felt so much guilt when I wasn't able to go. Even when they started broadcasting it, I wouldn't be able to wake up or stay awake for it. After years I "realized" that God knew I was doing my best so he wasn't going to punish me for not being able to go to church. Doesn't make since now because if I'd truly believed, my faith could have made it happen. I hope the lady is able to rationalize a way to avoid yeast infections
Don’t call yourslef an idiot. I often think how can someone join a cult, but obviously you don’t know when you’re in one.
I thought she had uti's, not yeast infections
It wasn't church/religion related, but I had a similar situation where I became disabled doing something and then felt guilty when I was too sick to keep hurting myself.
@@shannond1511was that really the point?
@@maddieb.4282 well there's a big difference, and yes, it was a major point they made, actually. It's confusing how the majority of the comment section and even the person that made the video keep saying one thing at one time and something different later.
OMG I LOVE TAnner's description of the knot in his stomach that he was so used to. I grew up with that panic and didnt know what was wrong with me for many years. You guys are awesome!
"copium" is like the medicine one takes to cope. It's generally used in a disparaging sense to ridicule someone who is dealing with an unfortunate or undesirable situation.
Yeah, also if someone projects onto someone else to make themselves feel better. Like someone making fun of someone for being fat even tho they're bald. Bullying would be their copium.
don't pretend to know what things mean lmfao. that's nowhere near what copium means
So what is it?
My boyfriend believes in God and I'm an Atheist and we don't try to change each other. Instead we have long amazing conversations that helps us understand one another. Every other guy I've be with has tried to change that about me. He accepts it and likes to hear my point of view
I’ve had two catholic bfs. One was very religious (the cross necklace stayed on during sex, mother Mary shrine in his apartment) and was wonderful wrt my atheism! I asked him lots of questions and he never got offended. Never tried to change me, either. The less-strict catholic bf legit made me cry regarding being an atheist lol. That one definitely wanted to change me. Happy for you and your bf!! It’s great seeing people respect one another’s beliefs.
For me the only way a different religion would work is if they could work together. Like I’m technically an atheist but I think gods could exist, any of them maybe even all of them. I don’t and won’t ever worship any of them even if I discover and know for certain they are real. I’m technically buddhist and part of the SGI which you can be and also exist as a member of another religion. It’s not mutually exclusive. It might conflict but it won’t always conflict by it’s nature. It basically just says to take responsibility and you’re in charge of your life and actions and you’re in charge of your fate or whatever. Basically boils down to you’re in charge of yourself and be a decent person. Nothing else. So if someone was idk pagan and thought gods were real but it wasn’t required to worship them to find happiness or salvation or whatever I’m good with that. If they’re catholic and think you can only find happiness or salvation or eternal life if you worship their God then nah we won’t work. Or if they think that they’re not in charge of their fate and it all comes down to god
@@fortunekader9121 did he go to confession after having unwed sex?
You should have people write in their experiences with old roommates at BYU and BYUI… I have some good stories about some crazy hyper Mormon roommates!
lol i was that hyper mormon roommate and there are times i remember what i was like and die of cringe
I NEVER got UTIs until I started wearing garments. I couldn't sleep with them on so I would hold them to sleep (like a teddy bear). I'm glad I left barely a year after I got in. Right around the time I found this channel. I feel like since leaving I lost parts of my relationships with my siblings, so I definitely look up to both of you as an older brother/ sister to help navigate all this. A million times thank you for what ya'll do. You're my comfort channel now
Ahhh holding them while sleeping!
So glad we can be a comfort in some way! 💗💗💗💗💗
Your whole family joined at once?
@@orphanblackops4608 that’s very common with JWs and Mormons. Parents will convert and therefore their children are forced to convert by extension
Lmao! I can I only imagine the kind of rationalization you must've went thru to tell yourself that holding them while you sleep is what you must do to be excused from wearing them.
@@orphanblackops4608 my family did that with Catholicism. My parents were Four Square pastors (protestant) and converted to Catholicism when I was 8, my sisters and I were baptized when I was 9. As of now I’m the only one who’s left and only one of my 4 sisters even knows. She’s also the only other one questioning everything right now as she discovered she’s bi and has a secret girlfriend.
“Love…It’s not something you give and take away!” Had me immediately remembering a worship song with the literal lyrics,”he gives and takes away” I remember people singing this in church, hands in the air and/or over their hearts, eyes closed, as if it wasn’t the most wildly fucked up concept to sing in praise
!!!!!
It just sounds like a reference to Job. Which considering the whole premise of the book of Job is kinda messed up. But I guess it's the familiarity.
The song’s called Blessed Be Your Name, it was constantly played at my Christian secondary school.
reminds me of Tauren Wells' Hills and Valley. Beautiful music but I get creeped out by the lyrics nowadays.
Watching this for the second time and commenting again because this part is relevant for me today: the not separating your beliefs from your identity is what one going through right now. I didn’t know how close I was to religion and now that I can’t make myself believe in it, I feel like I have nothing and am nothing.
We know that feeling so well. Hang in there-you will uncover more about yourself as you stay loving and aware. 💗💗💗💗💗
I’ve never been religious but I emphasize deeply with people affected by religious abuse, cults etc. You two are bright shining examples of where love, intelligence and determination can take you, though I’m sure the path here has been rough as hell. And the deprogramming work never stops.
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Oh my god Tanner, I relate 100% to what you said about the constant anxiety you had in the church. I was actually literally writing about the same thing for a blog post today and it’s amazing to hear that I’m not the only one.
It was like a constant baseline emotion of anxiety and depression that I didn’t even know I had until I left the church and thought “oh hey I don’t have to pray or read scriptures anymore”. Same as you, it was a physical feeling. Like an immense weight lifting. Now, what I consider my “baseline” emotion is a general state of constant content. It’s amazing! I’m so happy for you that you could be free, and now be living without that heavy, heavy feeling of anxiety in the church
She said he was incredibly emotionally cruel....and then moved hours away from family and friends? That's a red flag. HAS he changed? Or is it that you don't have outside influence anymore? Then she said she's not leaving him...she's just trapping herself in a toxic environment. That's for her to deal with.
I spent the first 18 years of my life in the lds church, but knew I didn’t believe in it/support it by the time I was in middle school. Began healing from it, while STILL experiencing it every Sunday, around the age of 16. Immediately stopped attending when I moved out. Love my family but that church is wild. I’m still not totally over all that has been done to me by the church, but I’m so much happier and comfortable with myself and I know I’ll be there fully one day. Thank you for your videos, I relate to them so much!
I love Sam's little talk of what love means to her. I have struggled firstly with finding a source of love to anchor myself on after unsubscribing to the concept of this all loving being in the sky, and secondly loving those that have failed and hurt me deeply. Due to early childhood experiences, I may never be able to fully let my emotional guard down enough to have that universal love for everyone, but I do hope to keep expanding my circle of acceptance and empathy. That concept that "if I am not feeling the love I need, it's because I am doing something wrong. Because it's too scary to acknowledge that maybe (some person) just can't give us the love we need" really hit the nail in the head and let me look at my own relational anxiety in a new light.
You two are such an example of deconstructing, healing, and rebuilding!! Its so inspiring. Also, a question- have you all read all about love by bell hooks?
I am literally reading it right now!!!!! Haha this is Sam :)
33:00 oh MAN that's a great way of talking about addiction!!! For example, with my OCD, it's the exact same, but the high is the ability to operate normally. I can see how that applies to the church. That was really insightful
36:00 that's what makes mental health so awful, because your only perspective is your own!! So unless you've lived differently, how would you know????
45:00 "copeium", combo of two words, "cope" and "opium". Definition: that which we rely on to stay comfortably in the dark, often in a manner which is addictive ✨
Another thing, elder Kevin there, referring to the growing problem with people disregarding their covenants? Church leaders have been saying that from day one, all the time. It just serves to create a sense of alarm, and to create an us vs. them mindset, and to put members on the lookout for non conforming individuals, as scapegoats for what feels wrong in the church.
My boyfriend told me that the extortion is specifically racketeering, like the mob. "Wouldn't want anything to happen to your soul, huh buddy?" - The Church
I would imagine garmets could also increase yeast infections
Probably bake bread down there.
The poly/cotton crotch would pill up and create a scratchy surface that would sandpaper my lady parts no matter how fast or slow I would walk. Super icky
Reddit: Don't make your beliefs your identity! (That's culty :P)
Mormons: _panicking_ Wait, my beliefs are already my identity...quick, I must come up with a reason why it has to be that way so I don't have to feel the cognitive dissonance!
I mean, you are literally taught (in every major religion - mine was Catholicism) that God comes first and above all you must obey the doctrine and the church (both are God). I was suicidal for years when I went through my faith crisis because you *know* the truth and are actively *choosing* to go against it when you feel/believe something contrary, even if it doesnt make sense. After all, God works in mysterious ways and we can’t comprehend everything, so choosing to disobey is just showing you dont know anything.
I'm just waiting for "LDS" the line by Under Armor.
The conditional love thing is so real. Even when i was at my most scared of coming out to my homophobic parents, I wasn't worried about them not LOVING me anymore, i was afraid they wouldn't LIKE me or that they'd be ashamed/disappointed
u guys are giving us such excellent content lately thank u
THANK YOU WE HAVE BEEN TRYING! 😅
Thanks!
Thank you so much!! 💖💖💖
You guys touched on so many important points! Ihad my faith crisis because I was extremely depressed in spite of doing everything right in the Mormon church. Turns out limiting myself to only dating men with god complexes and believing I was meant to be a breeding creature for God coupled with believing that God loved blind /unquestioning individuals above the more curious/rebellious ones really made me depressed about this existence. Keep up the good work.
I'm loving Tanner's adorable & unique quilt sweat shirt! 😄
winemomjared.com :)
He also has a sweet Ken western shirt with fringe!
this is the first time i’ve seen someone talk about mormonism from an inside perspective, and god, i never realized what a cult it was. i’m an ex christian myself, evangelical, and i had very similar experiences to the guilt cycle you talked about here. i was never conditioned by my environment however, my conditioning was internal (scrupulosity ocd), and it makes me so angry to know that people are getting away with this in the name of god. this was really cathartic, thank you.
I love Sam's Freudian slip when she said "Symbollocks"! So true! The temple is ALL symbollocks. 😂
Glen L. Pace wrote a book about his trip to Ethiopia. An African Journey. This factual, passionate publication later in life finished his career as a GA due to his honest report about the church in Ethiopia/Africa. He was demoted to Emeritus.😮
We need a tee-shirt. I got banned for suggesting someone consult with a secular mental health professional because they were describing symptoms of depression. Make the shirt. I'll buy it.
I am thankful for my job as a High Rise window washer in Sacramento Ca ..it is normal and often to have 90 100 degree days during summer And I was suffering so bad I knew if I kept wearing my mormon underwear I would literally die !!! So I stopped and never went back !😅
The advice to keep beliefs separate from identity is so important! Growth requires change, and change is so much harder if it shakes your sense of self.
In Catholicism there is an idea of “mortal” vs “venial” sin. If you die with a venial sin unconfessed, you have a chance at heaven, but if you die with a MORTAL sin you are damned to hell. So my scrupulous ass found a catholic Reddit thread presenting a scenario in which the question was: if you JUMPED IN FRONT OF A MOVING CAR TO SAVE YOUR CHILD’S LIFE, but had a mortal sin on your heart, would you still go to heaven?? And people were legit debating this. I am so glad I got out 😅
Ahhhhhhhhh sounds like we need to dive into Catholic Reddit!
What is a mortal sin? Like murder?
@@arowace498 Mortal sins include breaking any of the Ten Commandments, and also things like masturbation, heresy, apostasy, divorce and abortion. Also you have to be aware that you are doing it and a willing offender so you can't commit a mortal sin accidentally. Source: I also grew up Catholic.
I love the "substitute Kevin" trick. That works for a lot of religions, including the specific brand of trad Catholic I grew up as.
I love this idea for a video. I really like your react videos whether it's reddit, tiktok, conferences, etc.
Have mormon garments been a thing since the very beginning, like with Joseph Smith? It's really sad to me that people can't make their own. Making something with your own hands can be a beautiful spiritual experience.
My favorite video so far, particularly the wife forgiveness for husband part!
It would be weird if you hadn't been banned from the LDS subreddit, every Exmo who gets on there gets banned
this is so sad how they force fear and shame onto people. It was especially saddening when people try to get help with a problem they’re having, people reply with “oh you just must not understand the significance yet here is the meaning of why you must follow.” Obviously they know that’s why they’re trying to get advice on how to deal with it?? It just seems very demeaning
I definitely relate to what time said about feeling released from being so unknowingly wound up.
When I had my faith crisis, I didn't even conceive the possibility that it might change how I feel about myself and how I feel day to day, so it was a shocking to me as it seems to have been for Tanner to experience that 'lightness' in nearly every aspect - mind, body, and soul.
Three years out now, and that feeling has stayed consistent. I've heard it said the most people have a level of baseline happiness and that regardless of what good may happen in your life that temporarily inflates that, such as marriage, having children, or getting a new job opportunity, the newness will eventually wear off at some point and you will end up back at your "baseline." (This is where the hedonic treadmill comes in, supposedly.)
I do believe there's truth in that, but I've rarely heard people acknowledge that there are things and life situations that can legitimately be the cause of a chronically lower baseline for happiness, that once resolved, can permanently increase someone's baseline. And I think leaving the control of a high demanding religion is definitely one of them
You guys are like the Sonny and Cher of ex mormons
I have a friend whose physician told her to stop wearing her bottom garments to help with her utis. A doctor’s advice is sometimes enough to allow members to deviate from the norm.
I have had depression my entire adult life - 43 years. Looking back, I feel like I was standing in the rain reading my scriptures and praying for help instead of getting an umbrella or going inside. The gospel teachings, and my interpretation, caused and perpetuated my depression. It’s so sad. I really want the Mormon God to be real.
BTW, I remember in your song Tiers of Heaven, you talked about marrying a Kevin. I thought of that when you talked about a Kevin in this episode.
the rain analogy is spot on. well said. also LOVE that you remembered that song 😂🙏
daaaamn so much brains talent and beauty in one video my phone almost exploded
I struggled heavily with depression while I was on my mission. I think the cognitive dissonance between how I was feeling and what I was teaching and had been taught about the only true happiness being in the church really exacerbated the depression. On top of that, I was paired with a companion who I can only describe as toxicly positive really pushed me into a dark place. I really appreciate you calling bullshit on these toxic, unhealthy ideologies that permiate the Mormon church and its doctrine.
It’s kinda funny how the answers and problems are so similar to really any religion. I was raised Catholic (ironically converted from Protestantism) but listening to these Reddit answers just echo what I was told as well.
The one that hit me the most was “what if your values are different than the church - then who do you follow?” This led me to be suicidal for many years actually because I felt like I was going to hell either way - living for my values or leaving the church knowing it was the one true faith.
I now consider myself agnostic but I still struggle with making decisions and even figuring out what my real values are. Even still it’s easier for me to just follow what other’s around me believe than to form my own opinions.
💗💗💗
I feel like the first answer to the first question was a subtle, wink-wink-nudge-nudge suggestion for the OP to not wear her garments. To wear them as much as you can equating to if you're not able to then don't and it's between you and Heavenly Father. It's crappy that an actually decent answer had to be all cloak and dagger unless they want to get banned though.
“I refuse to be lectured by anyone named kevin”
WHAT- I HAD NO CLUE ABT THE INTERRACIAL MARRIAGE THING! damm- cuz im half chinese half white and my parents were married in the temple...i mean we do live in california so its probably not as bad as utah.. i just remembered my brother also married a white woman in the temple...in utah
When you guys were at BYUI did they have the hallway displays on evolution? I’m there rn (undercover 🤫) and every time I pass one it makes me giggle a little
Undercover?
NeverMo here... Are the garmies made of a synthetic fabric? That for some can hold in heat and cause sweating. I can't wear anything but cotton "panties" (sorry Sam!!) anymore. This poor lady. I really feel for her.
I think it depends?! But largely yes
@@ZelphOntheShelf I would think that the "Men in Charge" would be on top (pun intended!) of this. I mean, the Who-Who has to stay healthy so they can perform their "Patriarchal Duties" without a pesky infection getting in the way... 🤔🤣
@She's So Cheryl my experience is that they aren't taught to care and perform those duties regardless. The good wives endure without complaint.
Have you ever seen those laundry bags that they issue to prison inmates? that synthetic mesh they made gym shorts out of in the 70's? Yeah, garments are a step below that, and they have magic sharpie symbols on them. They are too holy to stack on top of the dryer though, so I guess they are a real treat! The garments must be burned if they touch the floor lol
@@Badassmotherhugger Ha! I've never seen prison laundry bag, but am old enough to remember the 70's gym shorts!
I had the same experience with anxiety. I don’t know how to describe to my religious friends that when I left the church my constant anxiety just…disappeared
That last comment of the second question was really interesting to me. Love by itself cannot get you over differences of opinion on religion or which church your kids will attend. Only the church can do that. It really cheapens love as a concept
The first post really resonated with me even as a nevermo. I live in aus, where it gets very hot. I run very hot, I don't know what it is but I'm fine in tee shirt and shorts at like 5C (Most people here grab the puffer jackets at 15C). My old school uniform was a shirt and a tunic over it in winter (read april to september. It can get to 30C in september). As I got older (really started being a problem from about 9) the uniform was just too hot from me and I was getting heat flushes like I was going through menopause and feeling angry putting the uniform on in the morning, to the point I started faking sick to get out of school sometimes. The school let me wear the PE uniform in the primary school when I was 11 because I couldn't handle it but they weren't that accomedating in the secondary school. I ended up leaving the school because I couldn't cope.
I really feel for the poster. At least I didn't feel like I was risking my soul by leaving the school.
Thank you for this content. I enjoyed it as a person who has never been a Mormon.
I was told if I bought and wore these magic undies, I would get my very own planet when I die! Yehaw, I'm ALL In!😜😲
The lds reddit seems like a fun place for social experiments
As a non-Mormon, I have a question about garments. What is the purpose and theology of garments? All I hear about them is it’s a commandment / covenant. I haven’t heard what the purpose is.
Protects you, helps you have the power of god with you at all times, etc.
I really hate going into the faithful subreddits because while symptoms may start off as kind of funny it ends up getting really tragically sad and all too real the harm and damage and lack of critical thinking caused by Mormonism. I think for me personally the most triggering thing about this episode so far is the fact that I that I am one who did not struggle nearly as much as other women do with the garment. So much so, that I steadily wore them for nearly 2 years AFTER I no longer believed, mainly to blend in with my family and community here in Utah.
Even now there are occasions that I WANT to wear them, such as pajamas in the middle of summer when my air conditioning can't keep up with high Utah temps. For me, some of the styles and fabric are at that perfect point of making me feel covered while also being thin enough as to not trap in additional body heat.
That TMI being said, the most triggering aspect of this episode for me is that I CANNOT escape the sound of my own voice hearing the sanctimonious comments from people who clearly have no idea the level of pain and discomfort experienced by some in wearing the garment, as I have either said exactly or very similar things in the past when I was fully believing.
I recently read a comment of a woman who experienced similar troubles with UTIs as she said something to the effect of "I urinated blood at times for DECADES because I didn't want to break my 'covenants'."
It makes me truly ill.
💗💗💗💗💗💗💗
God: My divine love is universal.
The LDS Church: We are the gate keepers of God's love...
GUY!! when I told a stake president that I was wearing my husbands garments. he said the lord was telling him (right that second) that in this day and age were people are confused on their genders I wasn’t allowed to wear my husbands garments. My bishop had said it was totally fine. 😐
!!!!!
I had an ad interrupting Tanner’s point that the happiness letter was about JS’s sexual advances to Nancy Rigdon. 😄
I love that Tanner always has t shirt ideas, it's also how I think but my social circles don't seem to. I'm happy to see another human apparently think the way I do regularly.
If the garments are all cheap polyester and you have to wear them all the time I’m thinking that douche sales and vaginal smell shame must be alive and well in Utah. Polyester doesn’t breathe and fosters bacteria growth, for some women, myself included, 5 min in polyester pants and/or underwear leads to some very unpleasant smells and can be a cause of uti and yeast infections. And smells can lead to shame and douching which also causes yeast infections. Universities should be using mormons to study the long term effects of wearing multiple layers of polyester over ones genitals all year.
I thought the Bible says that mixed blend fabrics are a sin? How the heck is Polyester supposed to be holy? Definitely sounds like a scam to make one person a little richer
@@morgan4574 it does, and ironically that’s one of the arbitrary rules we should have been following, if all our fabrics were made of only one kind of fibre we would have mastered cloth recycling ages ago.
Reddit is very angry in my experience, I stopped using it because it felt like an echo chamber of negativity. I mostly used it for video game related stuff though. I have noticed if you are in a less represented group, you can easily get steamrolled (such as being gay in a straight dominated space, excuse me for not caring about someone's rack size)
Lol, "old Jewish proverb" = I watched Fiddler on the Roof once. Literally, that's where that line is from. Pretty ironic too, when you think about it.
I never understood when people say "turn to the scriptures" to solve major problems. Like, how is reading what is essentially Bible fan fiction gonna help overcome my very real need to pay rent?
I'm so glad I left before I ever wore a garment...
Lol years ago I tweeted something similar to that "garbage take" they were talking about. Obviously I am an exmo, that's no secret but I posted it with no specific language and my Mormon family members took it so personally as if I was telling them directly that they should doubt their beliefs. All I said was that if your belief system makes you feel bad then you should reevaluate ....but if the message were made by a Mormon and directed at non-Mormons, they'd have no problem with it
So telling
Tbh, I didn't really know Australian ppl or British ppl had Mormons. I thought it was an American religion.
They have missionaries to go forth all over the world to solicit their beliefs!
I once shut down a very nice Mormon man by explaining that I was spiritual but not religious and pointing out the things that he said that I agreed with, then pointing out that since in Mormonism reincarnation exists, then perhaps this was not my lifetime to receive his message and it would be a potential issue to interfere with God's timing.
If love isn't unconditional then it's just transactional. You're just making a transaction because you expect something in return.
So sad
I just love tanner's laugh 😭😭🤍
The nursing garments were a horrifying experience, I felt so grotesque, I hated them so much. I'm so grateful I'm free.
Can I just say, and I know this isn't related to the topic of the video, but I really want a Paddington Bear painting like what you two have behind you?
r/mormon is a mix of exmormons and jack mormons so that one tends to be better than r/lds or r/latterdaysaints. Every time I check out those subs I just get depressed and absolutely hate them. I thankfully never had to wear garments, and I'm so grateful for that.
06:45 we’re getting into wacky sports movie territory, “nothing in the rule book says______” :P
For a woman who is also in early menopause, I want to acknowledge how much your body completely changes. Aside from the weight changes, the sexual health changes, and the mental health changes - and just to talk about the overheating thing - for anyone trying to appreciate this - imagine having to be fully dressed and exercising inside a small humid bathroom, like after you take a shower.
this is a refreshing break from ranty commentary content. Y'all are quite thoughtful. LDS is really fucked tho.
This video is very well presented, I’ll definitely be watching more of your videos. Also it has a lot of ads, I hope you guys are actually getting money from that because I know this type of video can often be demonetized 😬
Did Russell Nelson write a book on soaking?
Do you upload this on a podcast so this busy mamma can listen to this on the go?
I could never be Mormon considering I literally MUST go commando otherwise within a few days..yeast infection. Those poor girls/women! I wish I could take away all their brainwashed guilt!!