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This is a shockingly accurate statement. I have a list. •Childhood friends raised in other beliefs. •Multiple queer friends in middle school. •An ex that pointed out I had all these strong convictions without the facts to support them. •My cousin. •My friend’s mom who is a exmo, mystic, and a spiritualist. •Friends in high school that never believed. It’s almost like being exposed to others experiences completely dismantles a cultish world view.
1:25:30 when Tanner talks about the thick, tight rope in his gut finally loosening and being able to relax for the first time ever, I think that’s the closest someone’s ever gotten to describing my deconversion experience. There is nothing like the feeling of freedom and peace of being truly alone after spending your entire life never allowed privacy or boundaries, forced into dissociation, betraying your body and personality, being surveilled to the point you compulsively survey yourself. I will never forget the sudden realization that I was safe, that I had choices, that I was real. I had never felt more human or more alive.
I wasn’t in any religious organization the first time I took my adhd medication and it was still a spiritual experience. The Holy Ghost definitely works through Adderal.
Good for you! I never noticed an effect. I simply started intensely organizing everything as a passion while having less appetite. Should I up my prescription?
57:32 What Tanner is describing here reminds me of how many Christians deconstruct from belief IN Jesus as a kind of miraculous figure, and begin to develop a faith LIKE Jesus'; a faith rooted in our love for each other as human beings ✌️
I remember my first crack in my testimony of mormonisim very clearly. I was horribly injured in my mission because a house collapsed on top of me. I was hospitalized for 6 weeks before I was sent home because I was in such critical condition. I had to relearn how to walk and went through years of physical therapy and surgeries (I have another one this year). Less than 3 months after I arrived home, the church withdrew all financial support for my medical treatments. I was devastated. And despite this, it took me 10 more years to finally admit to myself that what they did was wrong. The conviction you both speak about while in the church resonates with me so much; I was literally numb in my legs and have pain in my bones daily, and I STILL had put the church's response to my injuries on the shelf.
I hope your surgery went well, and yes being taken care of when you're injured is the most basic of human rights. You deserve it and anyone or anything that comes between you and your right to healthcare needs to fuck off. I hope you no longer feel guilty for getting the help you deserve.
And around 1:45:35, Sam puts that so brilliantly: "[at the time, I would've said] 'This religion helps me to be so loving.' But all it was really providing me was a sense of relief from the fear that I wasn't lovable." So well put!
It still blows my mind that Tanner served his mission in my hometown! João Pessoa is such an amazing place and it makes me sad that you couldn't enjoy it as a tourist because you were working for the church 24/7 😔
Tanner, I had a similar experience deconstructing homophobia. I grew up in an atheist/agnostic household but adopted the ethos of my Evangelical/Mormon community. Even if I didn't believe in God, the adults in the room were telling that "gayness" was a form of delinquency. And I believed it. But in college, friends (freed from their orthodox households) started coming out as gay, bisexual, trans etc. At first I didn't "get it," but I still loved them. It took patience from friends and a lot of conversations, but I realized I was the asshole. These were people, not the butt of jokes. I owe the world to those friends who gave me their time and patience. It wasn't their job to teach me, but it's a testament to their character and the power of empathy ❤ Edit: of course you have the additional layer of being an LGBTQ person, which I don't want to undermine. That's a whole other journey of self discovery and I'm so glad to see you uplifting others ☺️
This was absolutely beautiful. Growing up knowing you are gay and wanting so much for God to "fix" you is such an awful way to live. It was actually my friend who was trans who helped me come out. She passed away a few years ago. She was the strongest most loving person I have ever known. We all have to stick together. ❤
My last time attending church was because of a "why people leave" talk too! It was the bishop at the very end of sacrament meeting, on the heels of an honestly lovely talk by a newer member of the ward (who also complimented my pronoun pin). I was in an aisle seat towards the front so I couldn't leave, but I was so angry I was *shaking* by the time he was done talking, and I had a panic attack outside the meetinghouse afterwards. It was a good thing I was about to move in with several never-mo friends lol, that definitely helped create a clean break (and I also got lucky w/ my ward being generally respectful of boundaries)
For both of you, inspired by Tanner's description of the "knot" in his stomach finally loosening: Unmoored The knot loosens, the rope slips - The boat floats away from the dock, and remembers what it is for: It is for the wind, the salt spray, the sunlight on the water. It is for the storms and the choppy surf - It is for the doldrums, where the wind is still and the sea turns to glass. It is for the journey, destination unknown. It is for the strangers It has yet to meet, For pods of dolphins and curious seagulls. It is for the sunset, setting the sky ablaze. It is for the depths, perilous and alluring, below. "The world is deep, deeper still than the day can reach, Deep is its woe; But Joy, too - deeper still. Woe implores: Go! But all joy wants eternity- Wants deep, wants deep eternity." So loosen the knot. Slip away from the dock. Unfurl the sail. And dare to cross the face of the deep. (Quoted lines are from Nietzsche, "Thus Spoke Zarathustra.")
I think you got derailed when you were going to explain where your channel name comes from. I love you guys so much! I was mesmerized listening to Tanner express his thoughts. Also, that point about curiosity being a precursor to love BLEW MY MIND! It’s so true! You two are brilliant!
I have been an "investigator" off and on for years and videos like yours always answer more questions intelligently than missionaries or members ever do.b
I lost my faith in Mormonism really quickly after I realized the ways in which it was integral to the parental abuse I experienced as a child. I formally left after the Policy of Exclusion was leaked. No God could justify the exclusion of anyone and it was not the Jesus I knew. I am really grateful for you both and your willingness to share your story. I resonate so much with the shelf breaking moments. I wish every Mormon would watch this video (or at least one like it) and really witness the labor and devotion to truth seeking. I have ultimately found Mormonism to not hold the truth, but I try and hold to the purported Mormon value of truth seeking as a way to honor my heritage. I wish I could express it in words, but please know how much of an impact you have had on me and others. Your hearts are good and kind and anyone who truly listens and sees you knows this truth. -Haylee in Seattle
Omg the adderall spiritual high is so real in the beginning 😂 I got prescribed it as a mom of two littles and I remember thinking “Finally! This is what I needed all along to feel the spirit and be the amazing mom I always knew I should be! Thank you God!” I love when God uses drugs to boost the spirit 😂
Tanner's very old video on why he left Mormonism is one I return to every once and awhile because you can tell how strongly he felt, and his story is so interesting.
The episode in which I learn that Sam and I have VERY similar stories. I got married 2 weeks before I turned 19 but my high control group was the military. There's a culture of marrying young and immediately spitting out kids (I did not, thankfully) in the military. My ex was a military kid that also went into the military and I was a vulnerable survivor of an abusive childhood, so we were both very susceptible to the pressures we were feeling from his command and the FRG (family readiness group). We split by the time we were 24.
Came for the Bethany and Dav take last week, staying for the humor and bridge-building and deep reflections. I appreciated this video so much - for the honesty of the deconstruction account but also for the description of the aftermath and the spiritual reconstruction in the absence of organized religion. I’m a former Catholic who deconstructed in my late teens, spent twenty years as an atheist, then deconstructed that atheism and reconstructed as an agnostic Quaker, which led me to a spiritual home free from dogma and in which belief is defined by seeking spiritual experiences in a community of fellow seekers, not by adherence to particular principles. I think deep spiritual journeys are thorny and hard and beautiful, and it’s so gratifying to hear about how others are grappling with spiritual issues, using rationality and skepticism but still moving forward spiritually among a ground littered with all the cast-off superficialities. (The ground is uneven, but we find our way...and it's with kindness and compassion.)
I went to BYU-I and when I began deconstructing, I’ve refused to think about my years there because it always felt like too much to reckon with. Hearing your perspective and experiences living there, both of you, allowed me to begin to understand why it’s so painful to think about that time that was outwardly such a “happy” period of my life. I’d love a more in-depth video about your experiences and what’s going on in Rexburg. Because the little things you brought up in this video already sent my brain spiraling with realizations.
Later in the vid when Tanner is talking about finally feeling able to relax, it really resonated with me. I'm ex-evangelical-charismatic, I was born into it, and come from a long line of pastors and preachers. The most difficult thing for me is my parents now know I don't believe anymore, but they don't understand. They think I'm jaded (I mean maybe a LITTLE lmfao) but they don't understand that I made the decision from a place of security, not bitterness. For me too, I got diagnosed with OCD after leaving the church, and I realized how the existential anxiety of the church was making my mental illness MUCH worse and feeding and strengthening compulsions. I have had multiple crises and am lucky to be here today. I'm actually THRIVING. Deconverting made me healthier and freer in literally every way, and I wish my parents could understand. I literally feel like I lost a weight that was on my chest and shoulders. It feels like someone unknotted that tight heavy rope like Tanner was talking about, and I literally phyically feel the difference. My parents are relieved that I'm happy and not in a mental health crisis in the hospital again, but at the same time my freedom and happiness causes them pain and will always cause them pain bc I will never reconvert. I dont know how to balance the grief with the happiness all the time, but I wish more people could experience it and understand. Bc how on earth could I willingly decide to go back to a way of life that literally nearly cost me my own multiple times?? This whole vid really spoke to me and "ministered to my spirit" lol ty both for sharing your experiences and being so open and real about it. It helps so much.
That description of the thick knotted rope loosening in your gut for the first time ever is SO on-point, I definitely felt this too. Thanks for the video!
You two are good people. Nothing better for people who are deconstructing than to hear stories like yours and see that you have truly grown and become better humans since leaving Mormonism. Thank you.
Looking forward to this. You're one of my favorite exmo channels that has helped me deconstruct. Thank you for the work you do! Love your humor! I love it when Tanner does his impression of Oaks!
Oh Tanner the way you spoke on spirituality at the end was so beautiful, and completely confirms to me the reason why I have gravitated to your guys channel despite not being exmo (I'm ex-Catholic). Your spirituality shines out from you and is magnetic. I recently decided that I was ready to pursue reconstruction 10 years after leaving my religion and I would love further recommendations on how you have reconstructed a spirituality that feels authentic to you. The way you both speak on these topics is so moving, thank you.
Sam I LOVE that you acknowledge that you are a good explainer because you are! The way you explain things like cognitive dissonance and the psychology behind cult belief has helped me SO MUCH on my deconstruction journey. Like so much. It really gave me a lot of compassion for myself and others. Instead of being like “how could I be so stupid and gullible to believe this” you helped me see we are hard wired for conditioning that cults create. So thank you. From the bottom of my heart. For using your “time and talents 😉 to help those of us who don’t understand how we got into this mess.
So much good stuff! Would love to here even more on some if these topics: discovering your queer identitiy, how you created your own community after leaving the church, or handling divorce at such a young age. Only suggestions, don't ever feel pressured to share more than what you are comfortable with!
I adore you both so much!! Tanner’s deconstruction experience lines up with mine in so many ways and you both express how it felt so well. I spent years feeling like something was off and struggled so much to try and make it make sense. When I first left the church your videos gave me so much comfort when I felt so extremely alone. I loved this video and am so here for your HD era 🫶
My testimony was hanging by a thread and was on life support…then after my mission I went to uni and evolution was explained clearly to me in a good faith way. My testimony breathed its last breath and that was the peak of my faith crisis where I was distraught but could finally put together a world view based on reality. About the same time I started watching your guys videos. They meant a lot in that time of my life.
As someone raised Catholic, hearing about Mormonism and Evangelicalism through y'all is very eye-opening to understanding other Christians. For me, religion has never been a major huge influence in my life. We'd go to to mass on Sundays and have religion class at school but it never was something that affected, like, the things I was doing on a day-to-day basis. We were taught that much of the Old Testament was just stories meant to teach, not real events, and converting others or pressuring your community to act a certain way was just never really a thing. I never really understood why non-Catholics were so vehement about Christianity and the Bible and whatnot. I've watched a handful of your videos over the past few days and I get it now. These versions of Christianity impact and invade every aspect of your life. Everything you do HAS to be about God/the Bible/the church. That's gotta be such a fear-inducing way to live. I have lots of issues with Catholicism but thinking on it now, I couldn't be more thankful that I was raised Catholic and not Evangelical or Mormon.
That is pretty much what I was taught as a Catholic. I was also brought up with more social justice, part of Catholicism, opposed to the prolife, hmm anti choice message.
The modern type of Catholicism where you don't give the church too much control of your body, mind or money can honestly be a fairly healthy religion in my experience. I'm a person from a country where Catholicism has mostly been done VERY badly up until very recently and I have scars from both hard-line Catholic thinking and (tbh even more so) some evangelical born again shite I was exposed to when young. I still can't deny still having a strong affection mild Catholicism done well though. I'm absolutely fine with lighting candles, saying occasional repetitive prayers, donations to the holy land, respecting the presence of the eucharist etc. without too much theological crap, high camp flamboyant super-rich hierarchies, subordination of women or repression of healthy sexuality.
Listening to these type of testimonies is one of the reasons I want to be a therapist that helps patients with religious traumas. Thank you guys so much for being brave enough to share your stories, they are so inspiring. ❤️Also, have you guys ever reacted to the play The Book of Mormon? It was written by the creators of South Park and is hilarious
Whole episode is great, but right at 1:22:00 , Tanner is exactly spot on!! "I was told it was all about learning; I was told it was all about compassion ... but that is not what this endeavor [the church] was eliciting from me." It was so deeply frustrating and confusing to me as a kid in mormonism as I learned how adults absolutely did not want me to be curious to learn anything besides the superficial rules and regulations of the organization, and how I was definitely not supposed to have genuine compassion or connection with any outsiders. Such a cult.
I went through a similar intellectual/emotional journey out of my Christian sect. It was a slow process but I finally gave in to my atheism after an in depth bible and history study into the origin of the Christian concept of hell. When I closed my Bible, took a deep breath and said it out loud, “None of this is real. I’m not going to hell.” What a relief!
You two are so radiant and intelligent and warm and magnetic, so excited to start this video and learn more about your stories ✨💫 - I know it’s probably overwhelming with all the new attention (hopefully in a good way but the internet can be funky like that). I’ve never been religious and know very little about Mormonism outside of what I learned reading Under the Banner of Heaven lol, so this is so educational and interesting for me. So much love and empathy for where youve been, what you’ve accomplished, and where you’ll go! 🫶
I have avoided your podcast as I am 72 and not much into giggles and goofiness, but I was in the store and put this podcast on. I fell in love with you both and your path. The only way I did it was go away to other states so I knew I did not belief in that God but 2 years ago I found podcasts and listened to Robert Ritners evaluation of the Book of Abraham I opened my book and saw it was published in 2017 and the papyrus was there….. what ? They lie!!!!! Then I heard the SEC debacle and so for two years just ate it all up. I am glad I gave it up at 26 left my marriage and lived my life. But I felt guilty till I saw the lie. The guilt dropped immediately. Congratulations young people.
Deconstruction videos are so interesting to me. I really relate to Samantha in that I stopped believing (I was a fundamentalist/baptist) and it then took me a full six months to actually say out loud (to a guy I was casually dating at the time) that I was no longer a Christian. It took me another six months to untangle myself from church, and another three years to tell my parents. It’s a journey! I also would say, it’s so hard to know what you’re actually believing vs what you know logically vs what you want to believe… they all become very tangled up. What I wanted to believe stayed christian waay longer than the other two. Amazing video and enjoying getting to know you guys parasocially! Zelph on the shelf is my Dav (obviously Dav is also my Dav, as is the law).
So beautiful to hear about how you've come full circle, to pass through the nihilism and bitterness, and open yourself up again to the transcendent beauty that is all around us and within us. Thank you for sharing these wise words. This was my first Zelph video and I'm really excited to hear more.
Everyone is operating on fear. They don’t want to go through what we went through. I’m an ex-Christian who studied the historicity of Jesus and the beginnings of Yahweh. I didn’t want to stop believing. But I didn’t control it.
You guys are lucky you had each other. As a lone Aussie who went through school defiantly Mormon and to this day who’s closest freinds and family (except nevermo wife and kids) are devout Mormon I’ve felt so alone many times throughout life since lack of faith.
Thank you so so much for sitting down and making this video. I wasn't mormon but fundamentalist christian and so many things you described in your deconversion/deconstruction were exactly what I went through as well. I especially connected with you talking about the feeling of being completely alone and the part about nearly driving yourself into psychosis over your thoughts.
Don’t be terrified of the new eyeballs!! 🥺You’re both so awesome (and also gorgeous) and I’m so enjoying binging your content!! Absolutely hilarious and also has been helping me work through deeply buried religious trauma I thought I had already worked through, wheeee. So glad to be here
I just found this channel after the Bethany/Dave stuff but I am in love with how yall speak with such kindness and wisdom. My story parallels yours in some ways with Christianity. I am barely allowing myself to explore my spirituality. I found how you guys described interconnectedness and everything so beautiful! Keep up the good work!
This was wonderful, thank you for sharing. It gave me great insight on what my partner’s deconstruction (southern evangelical Baptist) was like, and I’m so glad I could be there for them during what must have been such a terrifying time. It’s interesting to hear a deconstruction story that highlights the hopefulness found after tearing down the walls of blind faith. That yes, there is a lot of anger with deconstruction, but that anger alone isn’t the driving factor. I wish you both the best of luck on your continuing journeys.❤
Speaking to the origins of the Noah and the flood myth, I watched a fascinating documentary a while back that suggested the flooding of doggerland (a former dry land bridge from mainland Europe to Britannia) near the end of the last ice age. There’s scads of archaeological evidence to support that loads of small communities lived on and used this area of land before the flood and it stands to reason small communities of flood survivors would pass on the tale of trauma about when their entire world flooded and they had to start anew. Filter that story through ages of essentially the telephone game before anyone thought to write it down plus different interpretations and individual creative license and you’ve got yourself a story of biblical proportions.
@@davidjanbaz7728 The whole story is so dumb. Nothing about it is plausible. And Egypt was there the entire time, they didn't get wiped out by a global flood. How dumb can you be.
Of course the one time I’m able to make catch the premiere because I’m on my college’s spring break, the Wi-Fi cut out for two hours at my place 😂. I appreciate the video! I’ve been curious about your leaving stories! I’m a NeverMo who was raised in and still lives with my family in Utah County, but I was raised Catholic, which provided some interesting cultural clashing as I grew up and still live in one of the most Mormon areas in the world. I’m agnostic now, but since Mormonism is much more homogeneous (especially in Utah) than Catholicism, I find learning about the history so interesting since I grew up in that culture. My best friend who was the most dedicated Mormon you could meet (I guess you could say he’s the Tanner to my Sam) left recently and now drinks coffee, swears, and actually married a non-binary person! I haven’t really come out to my family as agnostic yet though, though I will when I move out at the latest. 😂
Curiosity being at the heart of love is honestly amazing. I've never thought of it that way but I swear y'all just altered my brain chemistry with that one Edit: I holding out but now that I'm done with the video, y'all didn't explain the name 😅
You two are the COOLEST humans ever I could listen to you talk for hours (and honestly have at this point!). Thank you so much for sharing ~ your perspectives on life, society, cults and religion are endlessly interesting to me and help me reflect on my own human experience.
I relate to people thinking I was trying to tear the church down with sincere questions. I really tried my best to believe to the point of semi-knowing I was deluding myself.
I relate to this so much! Like Tanner, I was the poster child Mormon boy who was all in. I also was helped in my deconstruction by a co-worker and one of my best friends who left a few months before me and sent me the CES letter, but not until I asked for it. I had already been less active and not going for a year before that and questioned my belief in God. The only thing keeping me in was "There's no other explanation for the Book of Mormon." and once I found out there was it was game over for me.
I just moved to Pocatello and have made friends with a lot of exmormons and quite a few chill Mormons and it’s got me real interested in these stories, thanks for sharing!
Fellow Pocatellan here! There are definitely lots of cool ex-mos in these parts. And I would definitely say that generally the Mormons are more chill here than even other nearby towns.
I am not Mormon, or exmo, but I enjoy listening to these kinds of videos because I was a part of a fairly strict evangelical/fundamental system. Apart from the whole coffee and tea thing, although they were about limiting soda I'm seeing a lot of parallels between the Mormon religion and my church upbringing. However I have since remained in the church but not evangelical fundamental nor one that was strict as mine. I have found a very loving, supportive church family. I did feel however like I was deconstructing, not so much my faith as my faith is important to me, it makes me who I am, but certainly the church and the churches I would go to. Even my Bible college was fairly strict and had a big honor code fairly similar to the one in BYU. Let's just say I got a lot of demerits. Thanks for sharing your video and story it really gives me much perspective on my own faith and letting go of my hard church background.
This video is lovely, especially the conclusion! Also it is WILD to hear that "going clear" was your final straw to the journey. I haven't watched that, but I watched the series that came out on Netflix a few years ago, and I never considered that the elements might carry over to help others in high control groups see the flaws within their own systems. It shouldn't be surprising, but it's incredible how differently something like that can resonate. (I love watching documentaries on cult thinking because I enjoy learning how people psychologically form these patterns and, more interestingly, how they eventually break from them and come to realize their own truth. Just never occurred to me how useful that, in itself, might be!)
I grew up in Rexburg, and I am confident I was in one of like three families there that were Mormon and the slightest bit liberal. Because of this I wasn't constantly being told to have a massive disgust response to anything I didn't understand leading me to listening to the experiences of ex-christen and ex-mormon people with awful experiences with their churches and put my beliefs in a reasonable perspective and think about all the logical inconsistencies in the doctrine, and the horrible behavior of early church members. I could go on forever about my experiences but I'm lucky to have found that out young.
Tanner, you are such a talented orator! Thank you for sharing your spiritual experience of connectedness with all of humanity, it was so compelling it genuinely put me in a more open and psychedelic state of being. Like listening to Ram Dass. Love hearing both of your stories again! Couldn’t help but feel like this was a love letter recorded just for Dave’s ears 😂
This video is so so good. Couldn't stop listening. Well done you two! So validating for someone who's just hit their year mark of deconstructing. Thank you for being a source of hope, validation, and humor for me! ❤️💕
Thanks so much for sharing this :) I love hearing peoples deconstruction stories. I think you made a great point about how the church loves to say that anyone who is no longer of the religion is just a bad person who wanted to sin - they love to say this but in my case, in your case, in almost every case I've heard, the people who leave the religion dive so much deeper in, exactly as you described. I did the same because I was terrified to leave. I also wanted to bring up something that was crucial in my deconstruction was actually V Sauce's video Spooky Coincidence because it basically explains that what we call coincidences may feel so crazy to us, but in reality there are so many things happening at all times, statistically it is not that uncommon to experience "coincidences" on a regular basis. AND humans are programmed to look for patterns in the world around us to help explain things. So we can see something and add meaning to it for ourselves. Which I think is beautiful - I love that we do this and it's super special to put meaning to "random" things and I don't think it takes away from the meaningfulness of it. But, religion makes it out to be "God" or the holy ghost, and it's easy to feel like that is true because it feels so much bigger than you when you experience it. And they make it out that nobody else experiences that without God. But it's a natural human experience, almost everyone can name instances like this that brought them to tears or made them emotional or felt super impactful. Finally - can we get more on Sam's marriage? I feel like deconstruction in a morman marriage is a whole story on it's own and I would love a deeper dive on that.
Sam and Tanner thank you for this video - it all resonates so strongly with me and it is so helpful to feel validation and kindness during my faith transition
Thank you so much for doing this video and being vulnerable about such a personal thing! Also Sam, your outfit is just peak. The sweater is just perfect
Hi Tanner and Sam, I’m so glad to find you I’m a catholic and I think that no matter what church we attended, we have the same problems because they teach us the same things, division, separation, intolerance and many other issues that make us not better than others but at the end is what it is. I just find your way of explaining your point of view so helpful to me and I’m sure many others, is so much that I like to say but it will be hard to put it in here, but thank you so much!!!❤ to both of you…
I'm not ex-mo or religious in any way, i don't even know why i got recomended this channel in the first place, but the topic was interesting and you guys were great speakers so i kept watching... Then i kept watching more and more of your videos because the two of you are genuinely the most inspiring human beings i've ever seen. Usually the people we're expected to look up to these days are because of carrers accomplishements, and money and succes and wining on capitalism and whatever; but you two are the first time i just feel inspired by someone's humanity. Your empathy, your openes to discovery, the grace you give other human beings; there's something so genuine and full o life and true compassion about you two...And unlike these others "ask not what capitalism can do for you, but what you can do for it", that just make me feel unacomplished and lazy and stupid...Your videos genuinely make me want to work to be a better person. Is not like i'm being looked down upon; but instead i feel as if i'm beeing offered a ladder. Also. What do i have to do to find myself a platonic soulmate like the two of you have found on each other? I'd do literally anything ha!
What a mind-blowingly lovely comment, wow. 😭 🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷 I think whatever you’re seeing in us exists in YOU and that’s why you’re recognizing it and valuing it! And now this comment is making me want to be a better person to try and live up to that hahaha 🙈🩷 HOPE YOU HAVE A BEAUTIFUL DAY AND STUMBLE UPON YOUR DREAM PLATONIC SOULMATE SOON!!!!!! ✨
I remember finding this channel back in college 9 years ago and now you're redoing videos?? 😳 How full-circle! Great to see you get more, new, fans that get to appreciate this new chapter for your channel
Your channel has really got me reflecting on the church I was brought up in (new apostolic church) because of some of its similarities to mormonism (baptisms & holy communion for the dead & other rituals that never struck me as odd at the time). It’s been 12 years since I left the church and 10 since I’ve become an atheist all together - although the church has definitely relaxed in years on a lot of things, I went back last year for a service with my mother (because I love her), and the main message was how children act out because they have the devil within them and it just made me so sad. They’re just being kids and learning about how to navigate the world, and they’re being taught that they’re inherently bad. Sorry for rambling in your comments section, but I just wanted to say how I appreciate you talking about your experience and how it’s really helped me reflect on things that I never really did when leaving and how it impacted my life in a more significant way than I realized. Thank goodness for my “woke” university professor for giving me River out of Eden by Richard Dawkins as an assigned reading and beginning my unraveling 😂
i’m a baptist christian and i really do love watching your videos even tho we don’t agree on things. you are both so polite and i really respect that. it is crazy to hear about the things you went through while being mormon
I really enjoy watching your videos - you’re both so intelligent but also kind people. I have never been LDS but I have family in the church and I’ve kind of watched from the sidelines, interested and a bit concerned. The four children of my generation all did missions, even the girls. All went to BYU. I can totally see why people buy into it though - even the word ‘celestial’ has something so lovely about it. The idea of being with your loved ones forever is lovely so it hits people in the right place, I guess.
New subscriber! Love you both. I deconstructed my catholic faith in high school (thanks to my queerness wootwoot!) but still struggle with shame and guilt associated with mental illness. I guess you could say I'm currently working on deconstructing my limiting beliefs and negative self esteem. Although it can be really difficult, I'm thankful for spaces like this where I'm reminded of how powerful we truly are. Being curious and creative is such a strength. Thanks for sharing your stories and inspiring me to continue my deconstruction/reconstruction journey of self.
PS. Also a big Ram Dass fan and highly recommend the album Music for Psychedelic Therapy by Jon Hopkins if you want some beautiful meditative music with a loving Ram Dass message at the end.
Nice to see another ex-catholic here! My deconstruction story was very similar, also due to queerness but also due to the bullsht going on with catholic popes and bishops.
Newer viewer here! Agnostic & raised without religion, but the Beth/Dav debacle has been fascinating. It’s like Plato’s Allegory of the Cave, unfurling in real time on social media! Go Dav Go! You both are great explainers, I think a wonderful video idea would be for you to dive into: -cognitive biases -psychological methods used by high control groups -basic therapy skills to help people cope (DBT, CBT, family systems etc). Honestly SMART recovery does an awesome job teaching these skills you should check it out. AA is culty AF -cognitive distortions -psychology 101 (ego, super ego etc) - I’d imagine your channel now draws viewers struggling with their religion and they likely lack exposure to resources that teach them therapeutic skills. Plus therapy is a luxury resource many cannot access. Your channel could help bridge the gap to healing and life skill learning -resources of basic skills to help people grappling -zizek & ideologies -shamanism and psychedelics, rituals (I’m picking up what you’re putting down with Hamilton’s Pharmacopia) Super great explaining & entertaining. Here I am, an agnostic who never thinks about religion, but all this has been so fascinating to view from an anthropological perspective. Well done! And fuck it up Dav! We’re rooting for you! PS: You should read PiHKAL, Dav if you happen to see this, you too! PPS: FYI I watch Fundie Fridays, and your videos are recommended to me, but I’ve always avoided them because I was always like….wtf is a zelph? I had no idea what type of channel this was and I’m pleasantly surprised & subscribed! The claymation podcast is excellent, don’t give up on it because it might appeal to your new viewers. It’s giving Duncan Trussel Family Hour vibes and that’s a compliment of the highest order. I vote lean into the unhinged creativity on the podcast. Go full Duncan/Adult Swim/Trixie & Katya. If the viewers are lower, it’s likely because it’s a different target audience who hasn’t found the content yet. Claymation podcast is perfect for clippable tiktok content. Integrate the shadowban! 😭
Thanks for sharing!! It's wild to me how many of us believe that if our church isn't correct "then it's nothing else". I felt the same way coming out of evangelical christianity, I didn't even think to look into other religious beliefs. Just shows how deep the indoctrination is & how many people in many religions all have the same experience! Love that for us
I'm at 1:28:01 and my cat is stanced up staring at yours on my tv lmao 😭 he's like who the fuck is this guy?! Great video I'm really loving it Also the cat thing is making me laugh
Your lived experience and practical wisdom do help in navigating through the muddy waters of religious claims and control tactics. Thank you for sharing!
Thank you for sharing your deconstruction process. I too experienced similar but different circumstances. To come to the realization of living in the now is huge and oh so liberating. Watching this video brings me so much joy to know the brainwashing does wash off.
I’m an ex-Catholic but I listen to many ex-Mormon channels like yours for my own deconstruction since there isn’t a lot of content specifically for us and I’ve found so many similarities between my own experience and of many ex-Mormons. 6:41 in my case I went from a very lapsed Catholic to increasingly devout in my teenage years and that’s how I ended up at the high demand parish community (possibly a cult according to one of my therapists) until I left Catholicism and Christianity altogether when I was 24 shortly before the pandemic, it was because I was very insecure about my own sense of identity and purpose like so many teenagers and conservative and fundamentalist groups are very good at fulfilling those needs (even if based on answers that don’t align with reality). Ultimately what drove me away from that community was the hostility towards mainstream science many of the people there, like more moderate Catholics I was willing to believe most of Genesis was a metaphor but one of my then closest friends thought evolution and the Big Bang were nonsense the only time I brought up the subject to him. Eventually I ended up rejecting Original Sin in its entirety and it all just fell apart for me because without it Jesus pretty much died for nothing then (I know Mormons don’t believe in that though but it’s a cornerstone doctrine for Catholicism and most other denominations).
1:33:45 “I don’t think I’ve ever seen Jurassic Park.” I sense a movie night soon. You don’t even need to see any of the later ones. The original is all you need.
I feel a lot of religious people don't understand that for atheists, we don't believe in an afterlife/heaven so we only have ONE life. What we do in it is so important, we want it to matter and a lot of it translate to helping people who are hurting (like minorities). I could go on and on about it but ultimately, if a god did exist I'm pretty sure a lot of atheists would end up in heaven because their actions and kindness speaks more than just performing what a religious text supposably says you have to do.
I appreciate how inclusive you guys have become in the past few years. You're modeling a wonderful example for the rest of us. It's true that we don't 100% choose our belief system. We're born into it, or indoctrinated, or fall into it during a crisis. I need to remember that about religion and politics!
As a nevermo, I'm so deep into my parasocial connection to the online exmormon community, that when I heard of how y'all lost your faith for probably the 3rd time since I binged all the content, I got physical chills all over my body 😂 Either way, love you two and loved the video! 🩵 The storytelling is always superb
I was so hoping you would make this video ! Yay! Also I left a cult in 2015 and the thing that started to reeeeaaaallly crack my shelf was also Going Clear! I read the book and it shifted everything for me
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Thanks for putting this video together!
Shout out to Dav if you're watching this
Implied at all times 😜
we're here for you, Dav!
@@ZelphOntheShelf Dav's fine. Pretty sure this one is actually for Bethany. ;)
Hi Dav 👋🏽
DAV! 🥳💜
This very much feels like "maybe the true deconversion was the friends we made along the way"
This is a shockingly accurate statement. I have a list.
•Childhood friends raised in other beliefs.
•Multiple queer friends in middle school.
•An ex that pointed out I had all these strong convictions without the facts to support them.
•My cousin.
•My friend’s mom who is a exmo, mystic, and a spiritualist.
•Friends in high school that never believed.
It’s almost like being exposed to others experiences completely dismantles a cultish world view.
1:25:30 when Tanner talks about the thick, tight rope in his gut finally loosening and being able to relax for the first time ever, I think that’s the closest someone’s ever gotten to describing my deconversion experience. There is nothing like the feeling of freedom and peace of being truly alone after spending your entire life never allowed privacy or boundaries, forced into dissociation, betraying your body and personality, being surveilled to the point you compulsively survey yourself. I will never forget the sudden realization that I was safe, that I had choices, that I was real. I had never felt more human or more alive.
🤍🤍🤍🤍🤍✨
Dammit, this comment made me cry. Wonderful accurate description.
I wasn’t in any religious organization the first time I took my adhd medication and it was still a spiritual experience. The Holy Ghost definitely works through Adderal.
Meth!!!!!!
The Holy Ghost works through Vyvanse for me 😁
Good for you! I never noticed an effect. I simply started intensely organizing everything as a passion while having less appetite. Should I up my prescription?
Same!!
I'm washed in the blood of methylphenidate ER!
57:32 What Tanner is describing here reminds me of how many Christians deconstruct from belief IN Jesus as a kind of miraculous figure, and begin to develop a faith LIKE Jesus'; a faith rooted in our love for each other as human beings ✌️
that is a really beautiful way of expressing it. thanks!
I remember my first crack in my testimony of mormonisim very clearly. I was horribly injured in my mission because a house collapsed on top of me. I was hospitalized for 6 weeks before I was sent home because I was in such critical condition. I had to relearn how to walk and went through years of physical therapy and surgeries (I have another one this year). Less than 3 months after I arrived home, the church withdrew all financial support for my medical treatments. I was devastated. And despite this, it took me 10 more years to finally admit to myself that what they did was wrong. The conviction you both speak about while in the church resonates with me so much; I was literally numb in my legs and have pain in my bones daily, and I STILL had put the church's response to my injuries on the shelf.
I hope your surgery went well, and yes being taken care of when you're injured is the most basic of human rights. You deserve it and anyone or anything that comes between you and your right to healthcare needs to fuck off. I hope you no longer feel guilty for getting the help you deserve.
And around 1:45:35, Sam puts that so brilliantly: "[at the time, I would've said] 'This religion helps me to be so loving.' But all it was really providing me was a sense of relief from the fear that I wasn't lovable." So well put!
Every Zelph video heals another piece of my heart that was broken by high-demand religion. ❤
😭💜💜💜
It still blows my mind that Tanner served his mission in my hometown! João Pessoa is such an amazing place and it makes me sad that you couldn't enjoy it as a tourist because you were working for the church 24/7 😔
Next Zelph trip should be João pessoa! Queria muito tomar umas caipirinhas com o Tanner e a Sam
@@nemiamzseria meu sonho??
Brasil é o melhor💜
Tanner, I had a similar experience deconstructing homophobia. I grew up in an atheist/agnostic household but adopted the ethos of my Evangelical/Mormon community. Even if I didn't believe in God, the adults in the room were telling that "gayness" was a form of delinquency. And I believed it. But in college, friends (freed from their orthodox households) started coming out as gay, bisexual, trans etc. At first I didn't "get it," but I still loved them. It took patience from friends and a lot of conversations, but I realized I was the asshole. These were people, not the butt of jokes. I owe the world to those friends who gave me their time and patience. It wasn't their job to teach me, but it's a testament to their character and the power of empathy ❤
Edit: of course you have the additional layer of being an LGBTQ person, which I don't want to undermine. That's a whole other journey of self discovery and I'm so glad to see you uplifting others ☺️
This was absolutely beautiful. Growing up knowing you are gay and wanting so much for God to "fix" you is such an awful way to live. It was actually my friend who was trans who helped me come out. She passed away a few years ago. She was the strongest most loving person I have ever known. We all have to stick together. ❤
My last time attending church was because of a "why people leave" talk too! It was the bishop at the very end of sacrament meeting, on the heels of an honestly lovely talk by a newer member of the ward (who also complimented my pronoun pin). I was in an aisle seat towards the front so I couldn't leave, but I was so angry I was *shaking* by the time he was done talking, and I had a panic attack outside the meetinghouse afterwards. It was a good thing I was about to move in with several never-mo friends lol, that definitely helped create a clean break (and I also got lucky w/ my ward being generally respectful of boundaries)
For both of you, inspired by Tanner's description of the "knot" in his stomach finally loosening:
Unmoored
The knot loosens, the rope slips -
The boat floats away from the dock, and remembers what it is for:
It is for the wind, the salt spray, the sunlight on the water.
It is for the storms and the choppy surf -
It is for the doldrums, where the wind is still and the sea turns to glass.
It is for the journey, destination unknown.
It is for the strangers It has yet to meet,
For pods of dolphins and curious seagulls.
It is for the sunset, setting the sky ablaze.
It is for the depths, perilous and alluring, below.
"The world is deep, deeper still than the day can reach,
Deep is its woe;
But Joy, too - deeper still.
Woe implores: Go!
But all joy wants eternity-
Wants deep, wants deep eternity."
So loosen the knot.
Slip away from the dock.
Unfurl the sail.
And dare to cross the face of the deep.
(Quoted lines are from Nietzsche, "Thus Spoke Zarathustra.")
Wow, thank you so much for sharing!! 💖💖💖
@@ZelphOntheShelf thank You both for sharing your deconstruction journey! Curiosity really is the root of love ❤️
This is so beautiful 💖
So incredibly accurate his description!
This gave me chills, absolutely beautiful
I think you got derailed when you were going to explain where your channel name comes from.
I love you guys so much! I was mesmerized listening to Tanner express his thoughts. Also, that point about curiosity being a precursor to love BLEW MY MIND! It’s so true! You two are brilliant!
you’re right. oopsie! 🙈😅
I have been an "investigator" off and on for years and videos like yours always answer more questions intelligently than missionaries or members ever do.b
I lost my faith in Mormonism really quickly after I realized the ways in which it was integral to the parental abuse I experienced as a child. I formally left after the Policy of Exclusion was leaked. No God could justify the exclusion of anyone and it was not the Jesus I knew. I am really grateful for you both and your willingness to share your story. I resonate so much with the shelf breaking moments. I wish every Mormon would watch this video (or at least one like it) and really witness the labor and devotion to truth seeking. I have ultimately found Mormonism to not hold the truth, but I try and hold to the purported Mormon value of truth seeking as a way to honor my heritage. I wish I could express it in words, but please know how much of an impact you have had on me and others. Your hearts are good and kind and anyone who truly listens and sees you knows this truth. -Haylee in Seattle
My parents act like EVERYONE struggles with being enough and nobody likes themselves. Maybe it’s just that… you’re in a cult.
Omg the adderall spiritual high is so real in the beginning 😂 I got prescribed it as a mom of two littles and I remember thinking “Finally! This is what I needed all along to feel the spirit and be the amazing mom I always knew I should be! Thank you God!” I love when God uses drugs to boost the spirit 😂
Would love to hear more about Tanners discovery of his queer identity in relationship with his deconstruction! Love you guys big big ❤
Tanner's very old video on why he left Mormonism is one I return to every once and awhile because you can tell how strongly he felt, and his story is so interesting.
I love that video. You can tell he was SO sincerely seeking. He WANTED the church to be true.
Link?
The episode in which I learn that Sam and I have VERY similar stories. I got married 2 weeks before I turned 19 but my high control group was the military. There's a culture of marrying young and immediately spitting out kids (I did not, thankfully) in the military. My ex was a military kid that also went into the military and I was a vulnerable survivor of an abusive childhood, so we were both very susceptible to the pressures we were feeling from his command and the FRG (family readiness group). We split by the time we were 24.
Came for the Bethany and Dav take last week, staying for the humor and bridge-building and deep reflections. I appreciated this video so much - for the honesty of the deconstruction account but also for the description of the aftermath and the spiritual reconstruction in the absence of organized religion. I’m a former Catholic who deconstructed in my late teens, spent twenty years as an atheist, then deconstructed that atheism and reconstructed as an agnostic Quaker, which led me to a spiritual home free from dogma and in which belief is defined by seeking spiritual experiences in a community of fellow seekers, not by adherence to particular principles. I think deep spiritual journeys are thorny and hard and beautiful, and it’s so gratifying to hear about how others are grappling with spiritual issues, using rationality and skepticism but still moving forward spiritually among a ground littered with all the cast-off superficialities. (The ground is uneven, but we find our way...and it's with kindness and compassion.)
I went to BYU-I and when I began deconstructing, I’ve refused to think about my years there because it always felt like too much to reckon with. Hearing your perspective and experiences living there, both of you, allowed me to begin to understand why it’s so painful to think about that time that was outwardly such a “happy” period of my life. I’d love a more in-depth video about your experiences and what’s going on in Rexburg. Because the little things you brought up in this video already sent my brain spiraling with realizations.
Later in the vid when Tanner is talking about finally feeling able to relax, it really resonated with me. I'm ex-evangelical-charismatic, I was born into it, and come from a long line of pastors and preachers. The most difficult thing for me is my parents now know I don't believe anymore, but they don't understand. They think I'm jaded (I mean maybe a LITTLE lmfao) but they don't understand that I made the decision from a place of security, not bitterness. For me too, I got diagnosed with OCD after leaving the church, and I realized how the existential anxiety of the church was making my mental illness MUCH worse and feeding and strengthening compulsions. I have had multiple crises and am lucky to be here today. I'm actually THRIVING. Deconverting made me healthier and freer in literally every way, and I wish my parents could understand. I literally feel like I lost a weight that was on my chest and shoulders. It feels like someone unknotted that tight heavy rope like Tanner was talking about, and I literally phyically feel the difference. My parents are relieved that I'm happy and not in a mental health crisis in the hospital again, but at the same time my freedom and happiness causes them pain and will always cause them pain bc I will never reconvert. I dont know how to balance the grief with the happiness all the time, but I wish more people could experience it and understand. Bc how on earth could I willingly decide to go back to a way of life that literally nearly cost me my own multiple times?? This whole vid really spoke to me and "ministered to my spirit" lol ty both for sharing your experiences and being so open and real about it. It helps so much.
💜💜💜💜💜💜💜 thank you for sharing!
I’m obsessed with the cat chilling on the counter towards the end ❤❤❤❤
That description of the thick knotted rope loosening in your gut for the first time ever is SO on-point, I definitely felt this too. Thanks for the video!
Every dollar venmoed to Sam = one r.i.p. to all the cats killed by curiosity 💓💓
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
You two are good people. Nothing better for people who are deconstructing than to hear stories like yours and see that you have truly grown and become better humans since leaving Mormonism. Thank you.
Looking forward to this. You're one of my favorite exmo channels that has helped me deconstruct. Thank you for the work you do! Love your humor! I love it when Tanner does his impression of Oaks!
Ahh yay! 💜 Tanner’s impressions are sickeningly good hahaha
Oh Tanner the way you spoke on spirituality at the end was so beautiful, and completely confirms to me the reason why I have gravitated to your guys channel despite not being exmo (I'm ex-Catholic). Your spirituality shines out from you and is magnetic. I recently decided that I was ready to pursue reconstruction 10 years after leaving my religion and I would love further recommendations on how you have reconstructed a spirituality that feels authentic to you. The way you both speak on these topics is so moving, thank you.
💜💜💜💜💜!
Sam I LOVE that you acknowledge that you are a good explainer because you are! The way you explain things like cognitive dissonance and the psychology behind cult belief has helped me SO MUCH on my deconstruction journey. Like so much. It really gave me a lot of compassion for myself and others. Instead of being like “how could I be so stupid and gullible to believe this” you helped me see we are hard wired for conditioning that cults create. So thank you. From the bottom of my heart. For using your “time and talents 😉 to help those of us who don’t understand how we got into this mess.
Ahhh thank you!!! Patriarchal blessing coming true haha 😜
So much good stuff! Would love to here even more on some if these topics: discovering your queer identitiy, how you created your own community after leaving the church, or handling divorce at such a young age. Only suggestions, don't ever feel pressured to share more than what you are comfortable with!
I adore you both so much!! Tanner’s deconstruction experience lines up with mine in so many ways and you both express how it felt so well. I spent years feeling like something was off and struggled so much to try and make it make sense. When I first left the church your videos gave me so much comfort when I felt so extremely alone. I loved this video and am so here for your HD era 🫶
My testimony was hanging by a thread and was on life support…then after my mission I went to uni and evolution was explained clearly to me in a good faith way.
My testimony breathed its last breath and that was the peak of my faith crisis where I was distraught but could finally put together a world view based on reality.
About the same time I started watching your guys videos. They meant a lot in that time of my life.
As someone raised Catholic, hearing about Mormonism and Evangelicalism through y'all is very eye-opening to understanding other Christians. For me, religion has never been a major huge influence in my life. We'd go to to mass on Sundays and have religion class at school but it never was something that affected, like, the things I was doing on a day-to-day basis. We were taught that much of the Old Testament was just stories meant to teach, not real events, and converting others or pressuring your community to act a certain way was just never really a thing. I never really understood why non-Catholics were so vehement about Christianity and the Bible and whatnot. I've watched a handful of your videos over the past few days and I get it now. These versions of Christianity impact and invade every aspect of your life. Everything you do HAS to be about God/the Bible/the church. That's gotta be such a fear-inducing way to live. I have lots of issues with Catholicism but thinking on it now, I couldn't be more thankful that I was raised Catholic and not Evangelical or Mormon.
Are you by any chance German?
I had a very similar experience with Catholicism. I feel like I got off easy with just the classic catholic guilt issues lol
I also had a similar experience with Catholicism.
That is pretty much what I was taught as a Catholic. I was also brought up with more social justice, part of Catholicism, opposed to the prolife, hmm anti choice message.
The modern type of Catholicism where you don't give the church too much control of your body, mind or money can honestly be a fairly healthy religion in my experience.
I'm a person from a country where Catholicism has mostly been done VERY badly up until very recently and I have scars from both hard-line Catholic thinking and (tbh even more so) some evangelical born again shite I was exposed to when young. I still can't deny still having a strong affection mild Catholicism done well though.
I'm absolutely fine with lighting candles, saying occasional repetitive prayers, donations to the holy land, respecting the presence of the eucharist etc. without too much theological crap, high camp flamboyant super-rich hierarchies, subordination of women or repression of healthy sexuality.
Listening to these type of testimonies is one of the reasons I want to be a therapist that helps patients with religious traumas. Thank you guys so much for being brave enough to share your stories, they are so inspiring. ❤️Also, have you guys ever reacted to the play The Book of Mormon? It was written by the creators of South Park and is hilarious
Good conversations all around, good Banksy content as well. Thanks to whoever got me a channel membership!
Whole episode is great, but right at 1:22:00 , Tanner is exactly spot on!! "I was told it was all about learning; I was told it was all about compassion ... but that is not what this endeavor [the church] was eliciting from me." It was so deeply frustrating and confusing to me as a kid in mormonism as I learned how adults absolutely did not want me to be curious to learn anything besides the superficial rules and regulations of the organization, and how I was definitely not supposed to have genuine compassion or connection with any outsiders. Such a cult.
I went through a similar intellectual/emotional journey out of my Christian sect. It was a slow process but I finally gave in to my atheism after an in depth bible and history study into the origin of the Christian concept of hell. When I closed my Bible, took a deep breath and said it out loud, “None of this is real. I’m not going to hell.” What a relief!
May I ask what your sources were for the origin of the Christian concept of hell? Asking for a friend 🫶🏼
You two are so radiant and intelligent and warm and magnetic, so excited to start this video and learn more about your stories ✨💫 - I know it’s probably overwhelming with all the new attention (hopefully in a good way but the internet can be funky like that). I’ve never been religious and know very little about Mormonism outside of what I learned reading Under the Banner of Heaven lol, so this is so educational and interesting for me. So much love and empathy for where youve been, what you’ve accomplished, and where you’ll go! 🫶
💜💜💜💜 thank you so much!!
I have avoided your podcast as I am 72 and not much into giggles and goofiness, but I was in the store and put this podcast on. I fell in love with you both and your path. The only way I did it was go away to other states so I knew I did not belief in that God but 2 years ago I found podcasts and listened to Robert Ritners evaluation of the Book of Abraham I opened my book and saw it was published in 2017 and the papyrus was there….. what ? They lie!!!!!
Then I heard the SEC debacle and so for two years just ate it all up. I am glad I gave it up at 26 left my marriage and lived my life. But I felt guilty till I saw the lie. The guilt dropped immediately.
Congratulations young people.
Deconstruction videos are so interesting to me. I really relate to Samantha in that I stopped believing (I was a fundamentalist/baptist) and it then took me a full six months to actually say out loud (to a guy I was casually dating at the time) that I was no longer a Christian. It took me another six months to untangle myself from church, and another three years to tell my parents. It’s a journey!
I also would say, it’s so hard to know what you’re actually believing vs what you know logically vs what you want to believe… they all become very tangled up. What I wanted to believe stayed christian waay longer than the other two.
Amazing video and enjoying getting to know you guys parasocially! Zelph on the shelf is my Dav (obviously Dav is also my Dav, as is the law).
So beautiful to hear about how you've come full circle, to pass through the nihilism and bitterness, and open yourself up again to the transcendent beauty that is all around us and within us. Thank you for sharing these wise words. This was my first Zelph video and I'm really excited to hear more.
Everyone is operating on fear. They don’t want to go through what we went through. I’m an ex-Christian who studied the historicity of Jesus and the beginnings of Yahweh. I didn’t want to stop believing. But I didn’t control it.
You guys are lucky you had each other. As a lone Aussie who went through school defiantly Mormon and to this day who’s closest freinds and family (except nevermo wife and kids) are devout Mormon I’ve felt so alone many times throughout life since lack of faith.
Thank you so so much for sitting down and making this video. I wasn't mormon but fundamentalist christian and so many things you described in your deconversion/deconstruction were exactly what I went through as well. I especially connected with you talking about the feeling of being completely alone and the part about nearly driving yourself into psychosis over your thoughts.
Couldn’t be at the premiere but here I am - you guys are killing it atm!!!!
Don’t be terrified of the new eyeballs!! 🥺You’re both so awesome (and also gorgeous) and I’m so enjoying binging your content!! Absolutely hilarious and also has been helping me work through deeply buried religious trauma I thought I had already worked through, wheeee. So glad to be here
I just found this channel after the Bethany/Dave stuff but I am in love with how yall speak with such kindness and wisdom. My story parallels yours in some ways with Christianity. I am barely allowing myself to explore my spirituality. I found how you guys described interconnectedness and everything so beautiful! Keep up the good work!
This was wonderful, thank you for sharing. It gave me great insight on what my partner’s deconstruction (southern evangelical Baptist) was like, and I’m so glad I could be there for them during what must have been such a terrifying time. It’s interesting to hear a deconstruction story that highlights the hopefulness found after tearing down the walls of blind faith. That yes, there is a lot of anger with deconstruction, but that anger alone isn’t the driving factor. I wish you both the best of luck on your continuing journeys.❤
Speaking to the origins of the Noah and the flood myth, I watched a fascinating documentary a while back that suggested the flooding of doggerland (a former dry land bridge from mainland Europe to Britannia) near the end of the last ice age. There’s scads of archaeological evidence to support that loads of small communities lived on and used this area of land before the flood and it stands to reason small communities of flood survivors would pass on the tale of trauma about when their entire world flooded and they had to start anew. Filter that story through ages of essentially the telephone game before anyone thought to write it down plus different interpretations and individual creative license and you’ve got yourself a story of biblical proportions.
It's always funny to hear new excuses of trying to explain something you obviously R clueless about!!!
@@davidjanbaz7728 The whole story is so dumb. Nothing about it is plausible. And Egypt was there the entire time, they didn't get wiped out by a global flood. How dumb can you be.
Of course the one time I’m able to make catch the premiere because I’m on my college’s spring break, the Wi-Fi cut out for two hours at my place 😂.
I appreciate the video! I’ve been curious about your leaving stories!
I’m a NeverMo who was raised in and still lives with my family in Utah County, but I was raised Catholic, which provided some interesting cultural clashing as I grew up and still live in one of the most Mormon areas in the world. I’m agnostic now, but since Mormonism is much more homogeneous (especially in Utah) than Catholicism, I find learning about the history so interesting since I grew up in that culture.
My best friend who was the most dedicated Mormon you could meet (I guess you could say he’s the Tanner to my Sam) left recently and now drinks coffee, swears, and actually married a non-binary person! I haven’t really come out to my family as agnostic yet though, though I will when I move out at the latest. 😂
Curiosity being at the heart of love is honestly amazing. I've never thought of it that way but I swear y'all just altered my brain chemistry with that one
Edit: I holding out but now that I'm done with the video, y'all didn't explain the name 😅
You two are the COOLEST humans ever I could listen to you talk for hours (and honestly have at this point!). Thank you so much for sharing ~ your perspectives on life, society, cults and religion are endlessly interesting to me and help me reflect on my own human experience.
🥹💜💜💜💜💜💫
Anything cool you see in us is in YOU haha 🙈
As a lifelong atheist, I am so fascinated by these stories.
I relate to people thinking I was trying to tear the church down with sincere questions. I really tried my best to believe to the point of semi-knowing I was deluding myself.
You guys are awesome! Thanks for making a video to contain your individual journeys out of the church
Love your friendship with each other. Thank you for the thoughtful sharing of your journey. #exvangelical
I relate to this so much! Like Tanner, I was the poster child Mormon boy who was all in. I also was helped in my deconstruction by a co-worker and one of my best friends who left a few months before me and sent me the CES letter, but not until I asked for it. I had already been less active and not going for a year before that and questioned my belief in God. The only thing keeping me in was "There's no other explanation for the Book of Mormon." and once I found out there was it was game over for me.
I just moved to Pocatello and have made friends with a lot of exmormons and quite a few chill Mormons and it’s got me real interested in these stories, thanks for sharing!
Fellow Pocatellan here! There are definitely lots of cool ex-mos in these parts. And I would definitely say that generally the Mormons are more chill here than even other nearby towns.
Omg that old clip of you made me so happy
I am not Mormon, or exmo, but I enjoy listening to these kinds of videos because I was a part of a fairly strict evangelical/fundamental system. Apart from the whole coffee and tea thing, although they were about limiting soda I'm seeing a lot of parallels between the Mormon religion and my church upbringing. However I have since remained in the church but not evangelical fundamental nor one that was strict as mine. I have found a very loving, supportive church family. I did feel however like I was deconstructing, not so much my faith as my faith is important to me, it makes me who I am, but certainly the church and the churches I would go to. Even my Bible college was fairly strict and had a big honor code fairly similar to the one in BYU. Let's just say I got a lot of demerits. Thanks for sharing your video and story it really gives me much perspective on my own faith and letting go of my hard church background.
This video is lovely, especially the conclusion! Also it is WILD to hear that "going clear" was your final straw to the journey. I haven't watched that, but I watched the series that came out on Netflix a few years ago, and I never considered that the elements might carry over to help others in high control groups see the flaws within their own systems. It shouldn't be surprising, but it's incredible how differently something like that can resonate. (I love watching documentaries on cult thinking because I enjoy learning how people psychologically form these patterns and, more interestingly, how they eventually break from them and come to realize their own truth. Just never occurred to me how useful that, in itself, might be!)
I grew up in Rexburg, and I am confident I was in one of like three families there that were Mormon and the slightest bit liberal. Because of this I wasn't constantly being told to have a massive disgust response to anything I didn't understand leading me to listening to the experiences of ex-christen and ex-mormon people with awful experiences with their churches and put my beliefs in a reasonable perspective and think about all the logical inconsistencies in the doctrine, and the horrible behavior of early church members. I could go on forever about my experiences but I'm lucky to have found that out young.
Tanner, you are such a talented orator! Thank you for sharing your spiritual experience of connectedness with all of humanity, it was so compelling it genuinely put me in a more open and psychedelic state of being. Like listening to Ram Dass.
Love hearing both of your stories again! Couldn’t help but feel like this was a love letter recorded just for Dave’s ears 😂
This video is so so good. Couldn't stop listening. Well done you two! So validating for someone who's just hit their year mark of deconstructing. Thank you for being a source of hope, validation, and humor for me! ❤️💕
Thanks so much for sharing this :) I love hearing peoples deconstruction stories. I think you made a great point about how the church loves to say that anyone who is no longer of the religion is just a bad person who wanted to sin - they love to say this but in my case, in your case, in almost every case I've heard, the people who leave the religion dive so much deeper in, exactly as you described. I did the same because I was terrified to leave.
I also wanted to bring up something that was crucial in my deconstruction was actually V Sauce's video Spooky Coincidence because it basically explains that what we call coincidences may feel so crazy to us, but in reality there are so many things happening at all times, statistically it is not that uncommon to experience "coincidences" on a regular basis. AND humans are programmed to look for patterns in the world around us to help explain things. So we can see something and add meaning to it for ourselves. Which I think is beautiful - I love that we do this and it's super special to put meaning to "random" things and I don't think it takes away from the meaningfulness of it. But, religion makes it out to be "God" or the holy ghost, and it's easy to feel like that is true because it feels so much bigger than you when you experience it. And they make it out that nobody else experiences that without God. But it's a natural human experience, almost everyone can name instances like this that brought them to tears or made them emotional or felt super impactful.
Finally - can we get more on Sam's marriage? I feel like deconstruction in a morman marriage is a whole story on it's own and I would love a deeper dive on that.
Sam and Tanner thank you for this video - it all resonates so strongly with me and it is so helpful to feel validation and kindness during my faith transition
Thank you so much for doing this video and being vulnerable about such a personal thing!
Also Sam, your outfit is just peak. The sweater is just perfect
Hi Tanner and Sam, I’m so glad to find you I’m a catholic and I think that no matter what church we attended, we have the same problems because they teach us the same things, division, separation, intolerance and many other issues that make us not better than others but at the end is what it is. I just find your way of explaining your point of view so helpful to me and I’m sure many others, is so much that I like to say but it will be hard to put it in here, but thank you so much!!!❤ to both of you…
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Please create chapters for this video if you have time. I often watch the whole thing and then replay portions of your videos for my husband.💜
I'm not ex-mo or religious in any way, i don't even know why i got recomended this channel in the first place, but the topic was interesting and you guys were great speakers so i
kept watching...
Then i kept watching more and more of your videos because the two of you are genuinely the most inspiring human beings i've ever seen. Usually the people we're expected to look up to these days are because of carrers accomplishements, and money and succes and wining on capitalism and whatever; but you two are the first time i just feel inspired by someone's humanity. Your empathy, your openes to discovery, the grace you give other human beings; there's something so genuine and full o life and true compassion about you two...And unlike these others "ask not what capitalism can do for you, but what you can do for it", that just make me feel unacomplished and lazy and stupid...Your videos genuinely make me want to work to be a better person. Is not like i'm being looked down upon; but instead i feel as if i'm beeing offered a ladder.
Also. What do i have to do to find myself a platonic soulmate like the two of you have found on each other? I'd do literally anything ha!
What a mind-blowingly lovely comment, wow. 😭 🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷
I think whatever you’re seeing in us exists in YOU and that’s why you’re recognizing it and valuing it! And now this comment is making me want to be a better person to try and live up to that hahaha 🙈🩷
HOPE YOU HAVE A BEAUTIFUL DAY AND STUMBLE UPON YOUR DREAM PLATONIC SOULMATE SOON!!!!!! ✨
I remember finding this channel back in college 9 years ago and now you're redoing videos?? 😳 How full-circle! Great to see you get more, new, fans that get to appreciate this new chapter for your channel
Awww
Your channel has really got me reflecting on the church I was brought up in (new apostolic church) because of some of its similarities to mormonism (baptisms & holy communion for the dead & other rituals that never struck me as odd at the time). It’s been 12 years since I left the church and 10 since I’ve become an atheist all together - although the church has definitely relaxed in years on a lot of things, I went back last year for a service with my mother (because I love her), and the main message was how children act out because they have the devil within them and it just made me so sad. They’re just being kids and learning about how to navigate the world, and they’re being taught that they’re inherently bad.
Sorry for rambling in your comments section, but I just wanted to say how I appreciate you talking about your experience and how it’s really helped me reflect on things that I never really did when leaving and how it impacted my life in a more significant way than I realized. Thank goodness for my “woke” university professor for giving me River out of Eden by Richard Dawkins as an assigned reading and beginning my unraveling 😂
I am here for the good news of the zelph but the cat is life giving as well thank you for your good content
i’m a baptist christian and i really do love watching your videos even tho we don’t agree on things. you are both so polite and i really respect that. it is crazy to hear about the things you went through while being mormon
I really enjoy watching your videos - you’re both so intelligent but also kind people. I have never been LDS but I have family in the church and I’ve kind of watched from the sidelines, interested and a bit concerned. The four children of my generation all did missions, even the girls. All went to BYU.
I can totally see why people buy into it though - even the word ‘celestial’ has something so lovely about it. The idea of being with your loved ones forever is lovely so it hits people in the right place, I guess.
i appreciate you guys so much! i love your approach towards the people That you commentate on! I think that graciousness is the key to being heard.
Absolutely cracking up at the idea of a Santa Claus indoctrination camp 😂
New subscriber! Love you both. I deconstructed my catholic faith in high school (thanks to my queerness wootwoot!) but still struggle with shame and guilt associated with mental illness. I guess you could say I'm currently working on deconstructing my limiting beliefs and negative self esteem. Although it can be really difficult, I'm thankful for spaces like this where I'm reminded of how powerful we truly are. Being curious and creative is such a strength. Thanks for sharing your stories and inspiring me to continue my deconstruction/reconstruction journey of self.
PS. Also a big Ram Dass fan and highly recommend the album Music for Psychedelic Therapy by Jon Hopkins if you want some beautiful meditative music with a loving Ram Dass message at the end.
Nice to see another ex-catholic here! My deconstruction story was very similar, also due to queerness but also due to the bullsht going on with catholic popes and bishops.
This made me love you both even more.
What a beautiful thing to have a best friend to evolve and learn with. Thank you so much for sharing. ❤️
Newer viewer here! Agnostic & raised without religion, but the Beth/Dav debacle has been fascinating. It’s like Plato’s Allegory of the Cave, unfurling in real time on social media! Go Dav Go! You both are great explainers, I think a wonderful video idea would be for you to dive into:
-cognitive biases
-psychological methods used by high control groups
-basic therapy skills to help people cope (DBT, CBT, family systems etc). Honestly SMART recovery does an awesome job teaching these skills you should check it out. AA is culty AF
-cognitive distortions
-psychology 101 (ego, super ego etc)
- I’d imagine your channel now draws viewers struggling with their religion and they likely lack exposure to resources that teach them therapeutic skills. Plus therapy is a luxury resource many cannot access. Your channel could help bridge the gap to healing and life skill learning
-resources of basic skills to help people grappling
-zizek & ideologies
-shamanism and psychedelics, rituals (I’m picking up what you’re putting down with Hamilton’s Pharmacopia)
Super great explaining & entertaining. Here I am, an agnostic who never thinks about religion, but all this has been so fascinating to view from an anthropological perspective. Well done! And fuck it up Dav! We’re rooting for you!
PS: You should read PiHKAL, Dav if you happen to see this, you too!
PPS: FYI I watch Fundie Fridays, and your videos are recommended to me, but I’ve always avoided them because I was always like….wtf is a zelph? I had no idea what type of channel this was and I’m pleasantly surprised & subscribed! The claymation podcast is excellent, don’t give up on it because it might appeal to your new viewers. It’s giving Duncan Trussel Family Hour vibes and that’s a compliment of the highest order. I vote lean into the unhinged creativity on the podcast. Go full Duncan/Adult Swim/Trixie & Katya. If the viewers are lower, it’s likely because it’s a different target audience who hasn’t found the content yet. Claymation podcast is perfect for clippable tiktok content. Integrate the shadowban! 😭
Thanks for sharing!! It's wild to me how many of us believe that if our church isn't correct "then it's nothing else". I felt the same way coming out of evangelical christianity, I didn't even think to look into other religious beliefs. Just shows how deep the indoctrination is & how many people in many religions all have the same experience! Love that for us
I'm at 1:28:01 and my cat is stanced up staring at yours on my tv lmao 😭 he's like who the fuck is this guy?! Great video I'm really loving it Also the cat thing is making me laugh
Your lived experience and practical wisdom do help in navigating through the muddy waters of religious claims and control tactics. Thank you for sharing!
Thank you for sharing your deconstruction process. I too experienced similar but different circumstances. To come to the realization of living in the now is huge and oh so liberating. Watching this video brings me so much joy to know the brainwashing does wash off.
I’m an ex-Catholic but I listen to many ex-Mormon channels like yours for my own deconstruction since there isn’t a lot of content specifically for us and I’ve found so many similarities between my own experience and of many ex-Mormons.
6:41 in my case I went from a very lapsed Catholic to increasingly devout in my teenage years and that’s how I ended up at the high demand parish community (possibly a cult according to one of my therapists) until I left Catholicism and Christianity altogether when I was 24 shortly before the pandemic, it was because I was very insecure about my own sense of identity and purpose like so many teenagers and conservative and fundamentalist groups are very good at fulfilling those needs (even if based on answers that don’t align with reality).
Ultimately what drove me away from that community was the hostility towards mainstream science many of the people there, like more moderate Catholics I was willing to believe most of Genesis was a metaphor but one of my then closest friends thought evolution and the Big Bang were nonsense the only time I brought up the subject to him. Eventually I ended up rejecting Original Sin in its entirety and it all just fell apart for me because without it Jesus pretty much died for nothing then (I know Mormons don’t believe in that though but it’s a cornerstone doctrine for Catholicism and most other denominations).
I’m so glad I found this channel, you guys are so funny and well spoken.
1:33:45 “I don’t think I’ve ever seen Jurassic Park.”
I sense a movie night soon. You don’t even need to see any of the later ones. The original is all you need.
jurassic park, like life… er eh em finds a way
I feel a lot of religious people don't understand that for atheists, we don't believe in an afterlife/heaven so we only have ONE life. What we do in it is so important, we want it to matter and a lot of it translate to helping people who are hurting (like minorities). I could go on and on about it but ultimately, if a god did exist I'm pretty sure a lot of atheists would end up in heaven because their actions and kindness speaks more than just performing what a religious text supposably says you have to do.
yes you're a victim
@@drzelensky4547 could you explain what you meant there?
@@daenerys02 explain to me how men make love to other men. Through the defecation hole?
This is absolutely beautiful, thank you for sharing. Not Mormon, but left fundie evangelicalism, and so much of this was so relatable.
This was really beautiful. Thank you for sharing :)
I appreciate how inclusive you guys have become in the past few years. You're modeling a wonderful example for the rest of us. It's true that we don't 100% choose our belief system. We're born into it, or indoctrinated, or fall into it during a crisis. I need to remember that about religion and politics!
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Watching WACO on Netflix cracked my shelf in a big way
this was awesome, thanks for sharing. the internet needs you :)
As a nevermo, I'm so deep into my parasocial connection to the online exmormon community, that when I heard of how y'all lost your faith for probably the 3rd time since I binged all the content, I got physical chills all over my body 😂
Either way, love you two and loved the video! 🩵 The storytelling is always superb
Nevermo here and relate so hard lol
The HD is great and I also like to watch your old videos. They're so endearing!
The cat makes this whole thing just 👏🏻🙌🏻🤌🏻
You guys inspired my deconstruction with the Bible video.💕
Ahh 💜💜💜
Thank you so much for sharing your stories ❤️ Showing people that it is possible to leave is so important.
I was so hoping you would make this video ! Yay! Also I left a cult in 2015 and the thing that started to reeeeaaaallly crack my shelf was also Going Clear! I read the book and it shifted everything for me