How we almost lost $17,000 on tour
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- Опубліковано 2 тра 2022
- Sungazer’s first west coast tour (almost) ended in disaster...
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Sungazer is…
me - bass/other stuff
Shawn Crowder - drums
Thanks to our guys!
Jared Yee - Sax
Christian Li - Keys
Brian Plautz - advancing/remote TM
Sungazer is going on tour in June in Europe! Come hang out.
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Peace,
Adam
It's absolutely wild to me that touring is about as economically viable as bringing your acoustic guitar to a campfire and playing wonderwall for two hours straight
It’s true, when I do this people demand I pay them 17 grand
True. I heard somewhere that most bands make no money from tours/concerts. I think most revenue probably comes from record sales, but anything gained from tours is immediately recycled back into lighting, booking venues, lodging, technical fees, crew, etc, etc, etc.
According to Misha Mansoor of Periphery, they band makes no money on albums sales or gigs. They break even. Now that they're independent, they can bring in a little cash with special editions, vinyl releases and the like, but not enough to split 5 ways and live off of. Instead they make money on the side gigs (private workshops/lessons, apparel and gear companies, work as producers, etc), and use the band as a way to garner an audience for said side gigs.
@@icecold5707 t shirt/merchandise sales are what makes the most, but now venues are even putting their hands in the pot and take a percentage of merch sales haha. That's when we would sell out of the back of the trailer.
It's more like it's as economically viable as bringing your acoustic guitar each night for a fortnight to a campfire and throwing it on the fire every night. Nuts!
This is the problem with the entire world, "I have suffered; therefore, you should suffer." Somehow, "I have suffered, so I know what it is like, and I don't want to do that to anyone else", is less sensational.
Hopefully not the entire world, but it certainly seems tangled up in the American Dream
If that were even true I could buy that. But people demanding that musicians should sleep in their car for an entire tour I GUARANTEE haven't suffered like that. It's really "I can maybe hypothetically imagine myself suffering therefore you need to"
@@williambendix9957 "You're suffering, but not enough to justify complaining. Go suffer more, then maybe you're allowed to say you're suffering."
True empathy is a very lost trait.
Wow, that reminds me of the draconian teachers at my primary school in the 1970’s.
A small quick note for all those who say "sleep in the van" - yeah, we did that, and were harassed and nearly impounded by police in every city. Sure rock n' roll is "edgy" and "outlaw", but it's not exactly feasible.
if you do it sober LOL
I'd be fine with never seeing another Walmart parking lot at sunrise.
Once you’ve touched it a couple times you realize okay I never want to do this again. Walmart parking lots. Truck stops. Freezing temperatures. Blazing temperatures. Also too tall to really lay down waking up with cramps. I’m good. Never again.
@@Rwellsii94 Being tall is incompatible with sleeping in cars. I've car camped a good amount, it's not sustainable for more than 2 or 3 days before you feel like shit.
@@IndigoVagrant While being tall definitely makes it harder to sleep in a car, you can make it work if you need to. On one occasion I built a platform for a folding mattress which reached all the way from the back of my car to the dashboard in the passenger seat area after removing all of the seats except the driver's seat. For the next trip I didn't plan at all and just folded the seats down and laid a mattress topper to sleep on. I could stick my feet between the driver and passenger seat to get enough room to stretch out. On the third trip I kept all the seats in the car again, but this time brought a big panel of wood which I just laid over the bumpy car interior and placed my folding mattress. The passenger seat didn't lay down flat to the rear seats, but it was close enough that I could lay the wood over it and sleep on a slight incline. These three trips combined added up to 3 months within a 12 month time frame.
Your options will depend on what car you have, in my case it was a subcompact hatchback. At one point I owned an SUV that was long enough that I could actually lay down in the back without worrying about the front seats. In a cargo van, it would be easy to stretch out. IMO, the #1 biggest difficulty of sleeping in a car is finding a place to park without getting harrassed. But since I was sleeping in a very inconspicuous vehicle with the windows blacked out, I was able to just pull into residential areas with unrestricted street parking late at night and leave early in the morning. As long as I picked a decent spot I rationalized that anyone whose house I was near could reasonably assume I was parked there to visit the neighbors.
The thing I find most frustrating about this whole tale is whilst some people are bashing musicians about "not touring correctly", they still won't pay for music itself, since "you make your money on tour", yet this clearly shows that to be almost a complete nonsense in the "post"-Covid era.
I don't even understand why Adam took the Covid risk except that maybe he was desperate because he needs money and he had waited long enough. Am glad he didn't lose money in the end but what a stress. In Australia, professional musicians have been hit hard. Berlin OTOH helped all their artists.
The truth is that most musicians DO make their money on tour... Through the sale of merch. Listening to the music on Spotify or UA-cam gets the artist pennies at best. It's still not a livable wage tho, and even before COVID, touring was a huge gamble not in the artists favor.
The purpose of the tour would be for exposure.
So the question boils down to "Are you willing to spend thousands to get your band out there?"
People are selfish and bitter, thanks to a world in which everyone is treated like shit.
its actually the people whining about "musicians deserve better! they should be able to sleep in a bed every night!" who never buy merch, don't pay for music, and never come to shows, and it was like this long before covid. The people saying they "aren't touring correctly" are mostly musicians themselves who have been on tour before
@@zachary_attackery bootlicker
First off, these comments are so thoughtful and compassionate - you all give me hope for the world!
Also one thing that Adam and Shawn were, IMO, a bit modest about in this video is how much unpaid work goes into the whole process of planning, organizing, promoting before any of this even happens...not to mention all the lugging gear and setting up and getting food and generally keeping everyone happy and healthy for days on end. And that's already hard enough when nothing goes wrong. As a Sungazer sideperson, it's amazing to see how attentive these two are to every little detail, and I can assure you all that it is a LOT of off-the-clock work. After all they managed to keep this old grumpy keyboardist happy for two weeks.
Also HUGE thanks to Andrew and Brian for being the best in the biz, and all the amazing venues and their staff and sound engineers.
Had a great time on the road with y'all, LFG!!!!!
I work in a STEM field and when I have to travel, things like food, gas, hotels etc are always expensed to the company. It's insane to me that musicians are expected to pay for these things out of their own pockets. It's much cheaper to buy groceries and make your own food but that's a luxury that is just not possible as a touring musician, and even the cost of feeding yourselves adds up on the road. I'm glad this is being talked about because musicians work so much behind the scenes and almost none of it is compensated. Thanks for pointing this out, this dollar amount that Adam gives is honestly very conservative.
@@chickenswallow It'd be a very different world if STEM people were told to sleep in the van.
@@chickenswallow Why is that "insane" to you? Who is supposed to be paying these musicians? Where does the money come from? Whose pocket is it SUPPOSED to come from? What do you think they do, go on tour and pull up to a restaurant for dinner and just say "Oh we don't need to pay...we're in a band"? You think working for a company that generates millions of dollars is the same as 4 guys driving around in a van playing in clubs? It's insane to ME that you supposedly work in the STEM field and can be that dense.
@@vigilantcosmicpenguin8721 STEM people actually earn money and can afford a hotel room. A band playing clubs to 150 people doesn't.
@@zachary_attackery A band playing clubs to 150 people doesn't earn money?
Oh you are being ripped off my man. Ask the next venue what their bar take is for that night. I'm not a musician but I am a sometime DJ and used to organise events for free. The venue more than made any money back..it's usually thousands at the bar, or at least high hundreds for the smaller places.
And that's without tickets. People ARE making money, it's just not the people on stage usually.
Adam giving us a heavy metal scream wasn't expected today, but it was appreciated
You can tell he practiced that
And oddly enough I want to hear more of that.
A darn fine one at that 9/10
I've been watching Adam for years and that was easily the best moment he has ever recorded 💯
That being said tho, he should sleep in the van...
It was genuinely good making me wonder if he didn't have someone else do it and just lipsync. I'm open to being wrong about that though
People have no clue what a tiny part the gig actually represents in a musician's working life. Thank you for this and all your videos.
Concertgoers only see the concert. They probably think of it as "busking, but on stage." They never consider how much time, money, sweat, worry, logistics, and luck goes into producing it.
Oh indeed. I never toured but I have worked at venues that tours (both big and small) play at, to help setup the stage for the musician. And that's just for the stage crew to set up the stage for the musician. I only see a small portion of the work put into a tour (the day of portion to be exact) and that small portion still is a ton of work after all the planning is done (even then planning is still done, like where to put everything on the stage).
The musician themselves spends time practicing (many many hours spend perfecting each song), making album versions of their songs, having their own personal life and social life, spending ungodly amounts of time in studios recording (for said albums), etc. And they do it because the love making and sharing music. I'm fairly certain nobody makes music their living to make big money, since music is a horrible path to make big money (save for the lucky few who the stars align for just right).
Is there a lot money to be found in making music? Not big money like millionaires make. If you want to be rich, being a musician is the wrong path. But for me personally, I love making music in my own time (instead of making a job out of it, since that would burn me out). That, and making music is just plain fun and fulfilling.
Exactly. You play for free. The money goes to all the other expenses. Fact- if one ever recoups his own personal investment, not to mention ones developed skill and play time. Ugh. 🎵🎵🎵🔔🔔🔔
Imagine being a fan of a band and telling them you want them to show up to your gig exhausted, hungry, agitated and uncomfortable and then expect them to put on a killer show. Go to fucking karaoke if you want that.
If you suffered in life and want other people to suffer as you did because you "turned out fine," you did not (in fact) turn out fine.
"I died of cancer so you shouldn't get a cure."
More like they didn't suffer at all. If it's fine to them, it was most likely first-world problems or only minor occasions.
This is not suffering. This is making a choice to go all in for your art. It is not much different than trying your hand at opening a business for yourself. Most of those fail as well, even when the people involved do everything right and sacrifice all kinds of stuff. If guys like Adam want a job, even in the music industry, there are much less risky ways of going about it. That would be a job. Going out on the road with your own music is a start up with all the risk and sacrifice .
@@natemendsen1629 makes you wonder if maybe there's just a bigger problem with how expensive it is to be alive and how most people don't make enough money to live or get ahead and start to question whether the system we have in place is serving the people who keep it running.
@@natemendsen1629 and how often are entrepreneurs told "just sleep in your car, you don't need a house" and "don't pay your employees"? silly.
I’m a physician, and this sounds almost exactly like the mythology of medical training.
You must suffer like everyone before you, get no sleep, eat nothing or crap from machines, get treated like slave labor for years until your “dues are paid.”
Every professional deserves to live & work with a minimum of dignity, health & respect.
Thank you for telling this story, & bravely done.
Yaaaaas MrGeek also an MD
I'm an ex doctorish (burned out in residency) turned musician. I'm constantly referencing the crap (somewhat toxically) I went through as a resident to frame my music career as "not so bad!" GAH! >.< Also, agreed. These guys did great and I'm proud for them/relieved for them that they turned a disaster into something good.
Can't agree more.
No. Dues should always be paid first.
@@geomitche8 George you don’t owe anyone who comes before you anything. There’s no “dues” you owe being a musician or a doctor. Such a terrible way to live.
Funny watching this after meeting you on tour. Glad I bought a round of drinks at least :)
Edit: the punk way of doing things is fine when you're touring for 1 or 2 weeks per year. It's great when you are just out of university but completely unsustainable as a career. I hated it. Hated always being required to party wherever we were staying. When we put up bands from abroad, their no.1 problem was always being at the mercy of whoever was hosting them.
I believe we went to the same uni - in my experience, anyone who wasn't in the fraction of the total that go on to be successful soloists is aghast at how difficult it is to make a living without having supplemental income from a completely non-musical source. Likewise, in my experience, the very same institution bills itself as being great on account of research output and high-profile bookings but incomers are shocked at how little education they get in booking gigs or performing regularly for a living without simply knowing the right people or being in the right place at the right time.
As an aside though, whenever I've put up bands from abroad, they've mostly been shocked at the sheer amount of booze consumed...
Nah. In the early 2000s we used to do it for three months. But at least I'd walk away with three or four grand. Much different these days... it's both better and worse than it was at the turn of the century.
It wasn't the shit money that made me walk away from music in 2005. It was the fake ass creepy christianity wacko peetophile dudes that womped on in and start making things gross and nasty.
yeah tottally! You get to sleep on someone's floor but then you also are sharing a space with 30 cats you are allergic to and no one in the house actually goes to sleep
Do this for a few decades and then just manage a Subway in your 50s 🥰
Yeah that is the worst part. You stay at someone's house and they wanna stay up till 4am partying when you gotta get up at 8am and drive 14 hours to the next show
Hi, a tour manager here. I've never been to the US, but toured American jazz musicians few times in my country (I mainly work in different music genre touring). I cannot tell if your itinerary was efficient or not without looking into the details, but from what I got from your vlog, you did the best possible planning. The fact that you hired a van and drove it yourself in order to bring your own equipment is like... thumbs up! We would normally hire a track with a professional driver, and artists will go by planes/hi-speed trains in a business class (!!!). Well, I do understand that ppl I've worked with were established musicians with few Grammies under their belts, but in any case, from the impression I got from you vlog, you did just great. And I really admire how you handled the situation with covid. I haven't toured big groups for almost 3 years already, because of covid, and even when I work with individuals there is always this chill "what if...". I repeat myself, but you guys did great, I wish more artists were so independent and could plan at least part of their transfers 😅
I’m a FOH engineer at a local 1,000 cap venue, I see how tired and burnt out touring bands always are coming in. Get to the venue at 1pm, leave at midnight. Most of the people saying these stupid things probably don’t work 11 hour days themselves (6 or 7 days per week) and they still get to sleep in a bed, why shouldn’t musicians? Not to mention the fact that they actually make a stable income that they can count on and don’t have to drive 7 hours before they’re back at work the next days. Touring is stressful, physically demanding and can be emotionally crushing as well. I have a lot of respect for you guys because it is a HUGE risk even though it shouldn’t be
Dude. This. So many people think people in bands are being jerks for being antisocial and staying in the van or backroom, when in reality, you are beyond exhausted and are trying to fit in any rest and solitude possible when you can. I felt bad if I missed some of the opening bands but unless you've toured, you don't grasp how taxing it is physically and mentally.
“And what’s that? You need health insurance and a retirement plan? AHHH HA HA HA HA HA HAAAAA!!!!”
Simple.Art is something one peruses outside of the normal system. The system they are in is not that economically viable but for a certain % of acts .Shit ,try starting your own company . Most of them fail too. And plenty of those people are sacrificing all kinds of shit. Of course it should be a risk, just like people in start ups. The normal world is right there for you to join if you want a more stability. Or shit ,guys like Adam could join some other working band/act or a number of other musical avenues that are not as risky .
@@natemendsen1629 Just because starting a business fails most of the time as well, doesn't mean that that's perfectly okay and somehow devalues a musicians problems. I think Business owners, wether they have a good product or bad, do not deserve to be treated like they're subhuman. And at the absolute least, they certainly have the Right to complain about it.
Not only do they have a stable income but they only have to do the bare minimum to maintain that income. Can you imagine a musician that put in the bare minimum to their work?
It is absolutely wild that folks would read an account of a venue stiffing musicians and go, "you musicians should have slept in a van". That's absurd. Predictable, but absurd.
Then those same people are shocked to find most of the top names in music come from rich, or at least well off families. Don't complain when you learn that one of the best known pop stars is the daughter of a defence contractor, when you don't want touring musicians to have decent working conditions.
That's the feeling I have with majority of conversations and discussions these days. Nuance seems to be long gone and everyone seems to have "opinion" ready. Well those are more statements instead of opinions and one could argue if it's even a discussion but more of a "statement throwing at each other party".
@@alexjenner1108 Sorry...who? It seems Ive been better with my FBI skills on google =(
Even if they did sleep in the van that would only get them a 1000 dollars.
They should have stayed home
Such a great storyteller and communicator. Thanks Adam 💜
It's high time we jettisoned that "Starving Artist" toxicity in music culture. I've zero respect for people that complain of musicians "not paying their dues" before stardom, or "selling out" after it. Expecting a basic standard of living is human.
"that "Starving Artist" toxicity in music culture." - I'm a visual artist and I'd like it gone too. People lowballing the value of my work. I probably charge too little, I might get more sales if I double or triple it, paradoxically because people think in tunnel vision of expensive = must be good.
Exactly. Also 'stardom' is simply not on the table for the majority of bands anymore and we need to acknowledge that if we want live music to continue to exist, it needs to be community supported. But let's also realise this is an across the board problem, from musicians to doctors and nurses to teachers and firefighters, etc. We need a movement for worker's rights in general.
a "starving artist" is someone who would be doing their art even if they were starving, not some fantasy about suffering. there's a big diff between suffering and paying for hotel rooms
Sorry, only people who are actually good musicians deserve to be well paid. Don't expect to make bank if you're a mediocre jazz group
If you aren't questioning the "starving artist" rhetoric, you cannot complain about musicians "selling out".
This opens up the perspective of how hard a musician's life is, my respect only further increases
Man treats different hobbies/interests like pokemon
how do you comment on every video
Wtf are you doing here
LMAO HOW ARE YOU HERE
Bro, you're everywhere lol
There's this quote from my freshman history teacher along the lines of "it really gets bad when the people who suffer from a harmful institution start to attack others suffering from the same institution."
Life in 2022
Nietzsche's "Slave Morality" otherwise stated: "I've suffered, so now you must suffer also" Collective punishment.
There could be a better way of living but first we must reproduce atrocities of old upon the generation coming of age and those in limbo,. Some attacked by parents even who claim to love their children yet they themselves lost half or more of their real wages and may never "retire" - the massive wealth transfer from boomer generation is a narrow few. My formal background is Economic History and Geopolitics. I studied biochemistry and genetics- the mind and the brain and had to redirect myself despite an undented gpa. Ironically....the two areas of concern allow see this car wreak.
Cheers for the fine history teachers! I just want to teach in the middle of nowhere, never thought I'd give up on New York but it's gone to billionaires and "gig jobs" which is serving these blind old bats.
There's a lot of "If I'm suffering, then these people don't get to say they don't want to suffer!" at play.
One huge factor, that doesn't get specifically discussed, is that West Coast is different than East Coast simply because of the distances involved. As an L.A. based artist, it is the single biggest factor in planning a tour.
One option is to fill in dates between performing dates with teaching, workshops, lectures, etc. The vibe is different, hosts are more generous than clubs, and you don't have to play bad nights. It wouldn't work well for everyone, but clearly Sungazer is well prepared for it.
Being a public high school teacher, union representative and musician/hobbyist I really enjoyed and appreciate your video. Here in my school in Massachusetts, our teachers had to fight for 2% raise and were treated by some as criminals that are stealing from the community for asking for any raise. By the way, the median price of a home in the community I teach is around $1 million. The town next to ours starting negotiating with their school committee with a 0% raise offer from them. That went on for almost 3 years until they went on strike and won a fair contract. You hit the nail on the head discussing how people denigrate labor that isn’t theirs. If you were to ask them to sleep in a van, take a 0% raise, or work for free they would call you crazy but they expect musicians to do so. I applaud you two and your hired guns for doing what you love and letting people know that it is a skill that people enjoy and need. If the pandemic didn’t teach people how much we need music then I don’t know what would. You provide valuable service and deserve to be compensated for it. I will look for you guys next time you are in Boston.
School teacher are more important than a music band playing an obscure music style though.
@@olafsigursons probably, but the labor movement needs to encompass both
@@olafsigursons just a varied example to express a nearly identical point. Both instances illustrate compensatory practices as it negatively impacts labor. But a five year old child would not have extracted that much. It’s ok. I’m sure your teacher will explain :)
That's what Socialism does in it's core, everyone should be pushed down rather than lifted up. And your own ability to create something better gets suffocated and harder when the system only focus on those who has it worse than you.
What I find especially interesting is that 0.0001% of musicians can drive around in Lambos, wear hundreds of thousands of dollars on them in jewelry, charge basically any ticket price they want and become literal billionaires from clothing or make-up lines, and they are CELEBRATED for it, but everybody else is apparently being greedy and dumb for simply wanting to sleep in a bed and at least break even when they're on tour??
class divide permeates all facets of society. it is a pattern, not a small series of exceptions, and neither is the fact that those further below are pushed even further down
Considering the top 0.0001% of musicians reach a much wider audience than the rest, and therefore - in the eyes of capitalism - bring more joy and pleasure into the world than all the others combined, it makes sense for this to be the case. Why do you deserve the same as The Top when you aren't providing as much as They do? -not to say this is how it _should_ be, but within a capitalistic framework, it makes sense.
@@bro748 Definitely a logical approach to this argument. People assume that the “industry” also encompasses that struggle and that is not the case by any means. Apart from the classism and ageism that big publishers like to enforce, there’s also the notion that their music is of a higher standard simply because it sells more. But why does it sell more? Because of advertising that they can afford and we will never be able to afford. This video made the point that all local musicians do not have the firepower to compete against industry plants because wars like this are expensive.
It’s absolutely insane, and it’s the same with any creative industry. Brandon Sanderson gets 33 million on a kickstarter and is lauded for it, meanwhile an advance for a novel can be as little as 500 dollars (or nothing!) and when there was a tweet thread on it there was a lot of “be glad for what you’re given” sentiment as well.
I would imagine getting finance for a film would be even more fraught. It feels like the barrier to entry to be a creative is at an all-time high, because of this built up idea that you should be doing this for the love of it.
@@almightyjarve don't even get me started on how daunting financing a documentary is... Really glad someone like Adam Neely has the reach to demolish the BS artists go through when they're asking for help and get mud thrown in their face.
imagine telling your boss you can't afford your bills at your payrate and he tells you to stop being a crybaby and cut down on showers.
people really do want to enjoy and consume art without offering respect or grace to the real humans who make it. thank you Adam for making this video and really shedding light on what it's like on the musicians' end.
To be fair this is exactly how American labor relations have been lately as people are leaving jobs for better pay.
The same kind of philosophy applies to people trying to sell things they have made. My wife does crochet and knitting as well as decorates cakes. Occasionally, she sells her wares. There have been people who have balked at what she charges for a pair of baby booties or a cake that feeds 20 people.
@@kueller917 yeah you gotta strike while the job market is hot, because you'll get the shaft when it tanks again.
well, they do that. Except they tell you to work harder and pick yourself up by your bootstraps and not buy coffee
@@kueller917 Yeah, this is 100% how bosses would view it too. It just doesn't typically come up.
Ask for a raise and tell them you can't afford cost of living on current wages, and I guarantee with 94% certainty that they'll say something like, "Have you considered moving into a cheaper home?"
My heart goes out to you guys. From the mid-80's to mid 90's I toured mainly as a duo but we would also have one or two local musicians join us occasionally. In our case the one thing which allowed us to make a profit, and a pretty good one at that were CD sales at the shows. Since that is no longer the case, I don't know how anyone but a big name national/international band could turn a profit by touring. Good luck and I wish you well on your European tour.
As a fellow musician, I absolutely agree with Adam's perspective and totally reasonable argument. It's insane how most of us are expected to perfect our craft and deliver it without failure only to be constantly battling against the overwhelming reality of a business so competitive and so financially unrewarding. Of course if you "break through" it's a different story, but not even that different at the end of the day.
Maybe one thing that could be done to make things financially less difficult would be booking double rooms in hotels instead of single rooms, at least for part of the tour. It doesn't save millions, but even a thousand bucks saved at the end of the tour could be a giant improvement.
Typical spoiled musician - you'll be expecting to eat *food* next!
@@iamjurell 🤣
What really hits is just how casually the band drives 10+ hours, is expected to perform a gig, and then gets back in a car for another 10+ hours. Every time I've driven for more than 5 or 6 hours, I'm in very little mood to do much of anything, much less go on stage and give a high energy performance I would feel like I would owe the audience. Even with comfortable accommodations and decent food, it seems like avoiding burnout would be virtually impossible.
Yeah honestly if you expect musicians to sleep in a car for weeks and spend tens of hours driving, just for your enjoyment, and you get pissed if they try to live normally, you don't really deserve to attend those shows. Every music fan should want the musicians they love to be as well rested and as comfortable as possible.
For me, the first thing I think of is: sleep in the van (i.e. get no sleep); drive for 6 hours the next day; fall asleep at the wheel and crash.
They're driving ten hours and getring triple vaxxed. Obviously not very smart guys
@@qwertyasdf66 Quite a few jazz musicians ended up dying this way back in the day while THEY were touring. Way too much driving from city to city, under all weather conditions, to make a date.
@@Mooseman327 Think about being a Black musician, playing 300+ one-nighters a year, in an era when a lot of hotels even in the north wouldn't let Blacks stay in the same venue they were performing, force to enter through the service entrance, having to scrounge up their own food, find a restaurant which would serve them. Etc, etc. For years and decades on end. The miracle is not that many died young, but that any survived beyond 30 at all.
If it doesn’t exist yet, I hope Sungazer has an upcoming piece called “Sleep In the Van”
Why does this sound exactly like a would-be title though. MAKE IT HAPPEN
Destined to be a Sungazer jazz/prog/math metal masterpiece! Adam would get to djent, Shawn would be able to thrash; win win win win! Make it so!
metalcore scream absolutely necessary. *SLEEP IN THE VAAAAAAAAAN!*
This tracks with graphic designers and artists too. the whole "pay you in exposure" cliche. I'm a musician and a designer and I've been almost conditioned to feel bad when people want to pay me. This needs to change. Great video!
I'm exactly the same, in fact I now own a PC repair and building company, and I still have that guilt of "Ohhh it's okay you don't have to pay so much"
My employees have to tell ME off and even petitioned together for lower wages.
It's most undoubtedly a self-poison, I'm certain I formed this from my many years making and playing music for people, it somehow turns you into a philanthropist, but indirectly, as if your self worth is lowered so much that you can't see yourself deserving compensation anymore, insurance, benefits and personal health is an out of reach luxury that you don't deserve. It's hard to shake it off.
A superb look into the life on the road especially in this time post pandemic where people think it's behind us but it will be reverberating in the industry for years to come. Well played Adam, an incredible video!
Jesus Christ loves you ❤️
People also need to keep in mind that Sungazer gets a lot of publicity and listeners due to Adam's huge online following. So their tour situation is better than your average jazz or even rock band's situation with barely any people coming to see the opening act live yet still having the same expenses and a smaller cut from a show - if any.
You're absolutely right! What would happen if Adam didn't have a channel? It would be completely unsustainable. I have a band in Poland and we just finished recording our new EP and live studio session. 6 songs worth of audio and 40 minutes worth of video. This cost us 24000 PLN where the minimum wage in Poland is 2700pln, so it took us almost a years worth of minimum wage salary to produce such a small amount of music. Fortunately we have other jobs to sustain our passion because we'll never break even. Most musicians who don't do regular gigs (aka those who want to live on their own music alone) don't break even, even the big name musicians have a hard time making any money.
@@shalaq this is what brought the soundcloud generation to where it is today. kids remixing music, or producing their own beats, recording at home and make a ton of material of good enough quality. they have no costs, just create. rock music is harder to create if the person isnt a multi-instrumentalist recording on their own. more pieces, more cost, more difficult to create. most big acts now are solo artists whove created their own buzz, taking risk away from the label signing them. theres no marketing new artists, they have to do it themselves.
All these "sleep in the van" people think the van is just empty at night and you can easily sleep in it. The van is completely full of gear and the only spaces are where you sit all day on the drive. If you are conditioned to sleeping lying down like... everyone... then you'll probably find it extremely difficult to sleep in the driver's seat of a van for any amount of time. Doing it for an entire tour would be brutal and absolutely devastating to your performance after a couple nights. And that's not even accounting for whether its freezing cold or boiling hot in the vehicle. Some bands have extra space in the van and can lay down but most are getting by in the smallest vehicle they can manage. Sleeping on someone's floor is way more common but I can yell you hours of stories about people offering a crash spot and then every surface in their apartment is covered in cat piss. Just like let musicians be dignified humans while they travel to entertain you.
tl;dr the sleep in the van people have never slept in a van.
The "sleep in the van" people are living in a fantasy world. They are completely delusional
Well the proof is in the pudding. Sure , go a head and point out the exploitative nature that music or any art system ends up becoming .Its never been different from what i can tell, but bitching about realities is as human as it gets.And last I checked that is par for the course for most people whatever they do for cash.But get a friggin pillow and get in the van if you want to save friggin $$$ .It is that basic.
What happens when someone tries to break in? You could get hurt/killed sleeping in the van nowadays.
@@swatchcovers5401 been there. It sucks.
Refreshing to see this, thanks Adam, glad y'all made it happen! I'd say it's quite valuable indeed!
Such a great video and a real service to the industry in getting the word out and continuing the conversation. Thank you!
From someone who has done the DIY thing for a decade:
Our band started touring in our early 20's. Roughing it was "easier." We've camped in below-freezing temps, slept on dozens of couches and floors, slept at venues, and of course… slept in the van. This was early in our career, so it made sense to cut costs anywhere we could - breaking even meant recouping the ~1k in gas we'd spend on a west coast run, and that would be lucky given that venues were offering no more than $200-$400 per night for an opening slot.
On these tours, we’ve become disastrously sick, promoters have stolen money earned at the door, an overnight host was been arrested on drug charges while we sat awkwardly in their house, we’ve been sexually harassed, we’ve been dosed, multiple vans have broken down… the list goes on.
Those early tours are some of the most colorful, visceral, important and formative times in my life. I think I’m glad I went through it.
But as we got older, our expectations changed. The music got better, venues started paying more, people started showing up. Budgets increased… with more money available, we had more opportunities to do more. A hotel room was still a rare luxury, but it becomes an obvious necessity when you’re on the road for 2 weeks. The goal was still to break even.
Now in our 30’s, we’ve had tough conversations about what the “dream” is now. This band is our passion project. Many of us are freelance artists or hold other careers outside of music. Half of us are married and building families. But we are still making music, and we’re getting booked for the biggest festivals we’ve ever played. So, how do we balance that desire to fulfill the “dream” with the desire to live a healthy, happy, productive life?
So we keep playing, but we take care of ourselves. We still travel in the van, but we split an airbnb. We expense our meals. We no longer rely on spending a dwindling supply of human capital just to walk away from a 2-week tour with $350 after payout. The money will NEVER be good enough for us to survive on. So we prioritize making art we care about and taking care of ourselves and our bandmates while we do it. It starts getting pretty easy to justify when we remember that the musicians up on stage have a life, a spouse and kids, rent, and chronic back pain. Thanks for the great video.
So it's basically your hobby... In that context people expect to pay for their hobbies so you seem to have a healthy approach. Sadly this is probably a more realistic scenario.
TOURING IS THE DUMBEST SHIT EVER.
(You set your shit up and then break it down EVERY SHOW??? That's hyper-ILLOGICAL.)
A band like Neely's should buy a sprinter van or short bus and TURN IT INTO A MOBILE ROCK CLUB..........that is how you do it.
TA-DA: No more need for touring or even setting up your gear!
You know ppl are lining up Friday nite to see Spiderman NWH?
YOU JUST PULL THE VAN UP and start rocking within seconds and blow everyone's minds.
Then, you drive to a Walmart and rock the customers going in and out (til cops tell you to move)!
YOU CAN DO 50 GIGS A DAY!
(ANd not have to ever set up or break down your gear!)
I DO GIGS ANYWHERE I WANT.....ANY TIME I WANT.......and 100% PROFIT.......and no hassles of any kind! (No schedulng gigs or any of that bullshit!)
WHY would you make ppl come to you?
You go to where the people are!
I've never once been ripped off by a promoter.
WHAT DO YOU NEED A PROMOTER FOR?
I go outdoors anywhere there are people and i practice my Guitar Sorcery or my Tronic Uke, and strangers HAND ME CASH.
Pretty simple!
Pretty efficient!
And the number of strangers who hand me a $5 or $10 or $20 or occasional $50 or $100 is amazing!
PINK FLOYD can suck it!
NEVER was Jimmy Page practicing his guitar and a stranger (who had neverheard Page!) hands him a $20!!
NEVER did a customer pay MORE THAN WAS ASKED to go see Led Zep!
BUT STRANGERS WHO ONLY HEAR 1 minute of my music hand me a $20 when a $1 tip will be fine???
@@jonbongjovi1869 what
@@SetyaPriatna busk basically
You are incredible for sharing this and bloody hell this video is so well made and communicated. x
30 minutes passed by very fast I must say!
Mary! Check out or channel for same type of content! Behind the scenes rock music in Missouri!
hopefully this doesnt deter a Spender+Sungazer tour! :)
i cudn't 2nd dat emotion more. neely is the foshizels!
? He's FOSTERING A FAILED STATUS QUO THAT WAS ALWAYS A FAILED IDEA, but everyone is a copycat so they KEEP this bogus biz model and sell it to young musicians.
NOTHING is easier than making money as a musician, but NOT if you use the TOTALLY DUMB Led Zeppelin / Metallica model of ONLY PLAYING SHOWS to people who already know and like your band. THIS is why these fools have a 5% profit margin while I have 200% profit margin! (To be fair, they do a million times MORE LABOR than i do, for no logical reason!)
EVERY MUSICIAN should practice outdoors, practice outdoors, practice outdoors (where humans are located). You don't make the audience come to you! That's dumb! You simply go where the people are.
I CAN PLAY THE SAME CITY every day for 50 YEARS and make great money EVERY TIME, bc I will never ever RUN OUT OF CUSTOMERS.
If metallica or taylor swift played the SAME TOWN for 5 WEEKS they'd run out of customers, bc they follow the Adam Neely method of ANTI-LOGIC.
"ONLY PLAY TO THE CHOIR if you want to be successful!"
I ONLY PLAY TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER HEARD MY MUSIC, and i play for ALL walks of life!
COUNTRY fans all love my avant instrumental music.
RAP fans all love my avant instrumental music.
CLASSICAL fans do too!
Teenybop fans do too!
LITTLE KIDS DO TOO.
All races. All classes.
YOU HUMANS HAVE TO START REALIZING ALL YOUR TRADITIONS WERE NEVER SMART.
(TOuring is THE dumbest shit ever, if the goal is to make money or widen your audience.)
And we're not even allowed to have this CONVERSATION!
(ex: Big Tech shadowbans me almost always, bc i teach ppl how EVERY tradition is bogus.)
I'm a Musician, for 40 years and counting, also a Concerts Promoter for 30 years, I can totally relate to this topic. It's true that there's some "self entitlement" sometimes among us, but by and large, this video makes many valid points.
"I've certainly paid my dues", that's not debatable 😎
I have so much respect for y'all touring Musicians, especially when you're paying for the tour/taking the risks. Story of my life!
I'm going to share this video as widely as possible. Thank you.
Greetings from Uganda 🇺🇬👊🏿🖤
this was absolutely fascinating and so well-explained and documented, with so much humanity and compassion behind it as well. Really, really appreciate you making and sharing this. Helps me start prepping for NICU's tours sometime in the (hopefully near) future. These are all things I'd never know unless I did it myself (I've never toured before)... or had someone like you to share the knowledge. Thanks bro
I toured professionally for over 15 years and I know exactly how this all works. Maybe those people who tell you to "sleep in the van" should try to sleep in their car when they get off work and see how they like it...
Them: "Hurr durr, rent is too high, the housing market is nonsense, landlords are evil!"
Me: "Sleep. In. The. Car."
Totally agree. The "you have to suffer because I am" is a fallacy on its own. Depending what country you're from but in many you can't expect people to sleep in a van, which would be totally illegal and against any work and safety regulations. I am a little surprised because quite often theaters and venues will arrange something here.
Yes Christiano! Notice the people calling for this privation are sleeping in a comfortable bed every night, are well fed and have a roof over their head! Maybe they should try it themselves to see how they like it!
Let's turn around the "starving artist" rhetoric and insist that everyone else become "starving accountants" and "starving construction workers" for a change.
@@vigilantcosmicpenguin8721 accountnts and construction workers have people who pay them. Who is paying the "artists"? They aren't working for a company. This is a moronic analogy.
Speaking of SXSW: We (an Iranian band named Free Keys) were invited in 2010. We had to fly to Turkey just to get visas since there is no US Embassy in Iran, we had to stay in Turkey for 2 months, on tourist visas, so we couldn't work, add to that lawyer fees for obtaining a performance visa as an Iranian, living in Turkey for 2 months, and finally moving across the world to the US and I think we just may have the world record for the most expensive SXSW performance, which never happened because I was denied a visa :)
Which sheds light on how awful the whole visa system is, too... :(
Yeah that just goes to show how utterly bullshit the US work visa process is. It's absolutely wild to me what bands have to go through to put on tours in the USA. Many bands I know just throw their hands up and say "We can't do it. With visas and permits and all this, it doesn't work for us."
@@ahogg5960 EVERYTHING is bullshit!
(EX: we not only literally FORCE all Murican kids into CHILD LABOR.....we do not even pay them a cent (!!!).......and for 12 LONG YEARS....(!!).....we give them HOME-work?!!!!!!! AW HELL NO!)
(We also FORCE them all to salute the flag and READ THEIR ROBOT SCRIPT OF HOW MUCH THEY LOVE THIS FREEDOM AND RELIGION!)
The Mighty John McLaughlin said he's never playing Amerikkka again because the RED TAPE IS TOO MUCH NOW.
Until we start burning down mansions and the homes of politicians, it can ONLY GET WORSE AND WORSE.
From what I hear South by southwest isn't really worth it if you are an unknown.
@@rorow3r No, not everybody wants to live in a country without public healthcare, public higher education, direct democracy, environmental regulations, fair wages, ... the list goes on
My favorite musician listening to my favorite podcaster/historian! Good stuff, difficult tour though! Thanks for sharing your experiences!
Kudos for posting this. There are many parallels with other professions where you are expected to suffer for the sake of art or whatever. Like another poster, I am a physician who long ago considered music as a career but opted for the traditional path. Happy for you and your bandmates to follow the dream and best of luck in growing your brand
As both a former band member (keys) and a current transport planning professional and urbanist, I can definitely add one major thing here.
Absence of both decent intercity public transportation (other than flights) and decently priced accommodation in the US are part of this equation, too.
Europe is a completely different planet in that respect.
I was thinking the same thing. Flying from la to San Fran is insane. They should build a high speed train there. Oh wait....
I joke but seriously the west is a mess
What are you referring to in terms of cheaper European accommodation? Hostels? Hotels in the major European cities won't necessarily be more economical than US motels.
@@tristanbass-krueger7195 I was curious and checked the average hotel room price in Portland, Madrid and Berlin if i were to book now for the next night. Portland sits at around 160 usd, Madrid at 80 usd and Berlin at 95 usd. There are of course more expensive population centers like London or Munich, but also cheaper ones.
To add onto this, even the flights seemed pretty expensive. For everything bad that people have to say about Ryanair and other budget airlines over here, they've at least drove the cost of flying down by quite a bit.
baffles me how the us, a gigantic continent spanning country with dozens of giant major powerhouse cities, struggles with affordable public transport
"Sleep in the van" works for a bunch of kids who either think they're going to make it big one day or are just doing it for kicks. If you're a pro you're expected to actually put on a show when you take the stage, which means you can't be all stiff and achy from sleeping in the van, and if you're over 30 even sleeping in a bed will leave you stiff enough!
I had no idea just how expensive touring could be. The sad part is that being signed to a label doesn't guarantee protection. A childhood friend became a rock musician and toured across country. Early in her career she sent newsletters to family and friends which detailed how the label made the band front a lot of the costs. For something that is so intrinsic to the human experience (music), we as a society do not show nearly enough love for touring artists.
Thanks for sharing all this with us. Also, now I really want to see sungazer if y'all ever happen to be near me.
Is so amazing to hear the journey of a local or small band, since they mostly don’t have roadies or stuff like that. Adam you’re an inspiration bro, by far you have the best music articles & theory in youtube.
i feel like the "sleep in the van" argument is scarily similar to people who live in a big city and want a barista to make their coffee every morning, but don't think that barista should be paid enough to be able to also live in that city so that they can make coffee every morning
it's almost like consumerism is a toxic mindset, and the music and art world has it even worse with the "labor of love" bullshit added on top.
even if you love what you do you still have to eat. if we want good art we need to make sure that people can actually make a living at it. The big band comment hit really hard because it's a style of music that's almost entirely died out entirely due to economic reasons. Likewise how many solo performers playing with tracks have you seen and wondered why they don't hire a band?
"It's almost like consumerism is a toxic mindset"
It is, no argument about it, and anyone who wants to disagree are to scared and fragile to challenge that concept.
lmao my comment has 69 likes as of right this moment
@@gNatflaps I wonder if statistically the 70th like on a comment tends to be slower than the 68th or 71st like and much slower than the 69th.
@@M_M_ODonnell @Adam do you get stats about that?
The quote at 27:05 sums it up really well: “There’s this expectation that musicians transcend the capitalist framework.” Some people just have a really hard time understanding the concept that some artists are professionals, and not everyone is an amateur enthusiast willing to work in an inhumane working environment.
I'm an amateur enthusiast. I would still be totally unwilling to work in an inhumane environment. The moment others are making money off of my music, I expect to see a cut of that.
Attacking the worker and not the labouring conditions or the framework that enables exploitation is a tale as old as work.
@@davidmcgirr and the fact that some workers themselves are taking part in it is an unsolved mystery of humanity.
They must have donkey brains!
@@davidmcgirr The only people who are ever forced into becoming a professional musician are Asian kids who actually end up in an orchestra, so I don't know what "framework that enables exploitation" are you talking about.
@@Fredjo Exploitation means working without receiving the fruits of your labour, in this case being undercompensated compared to the value you provide. Exploitation ≠ forced labour.
From a touring band that has spent many long days & nights on the road, this is a breath of fresh air. I love the honesty, the directness, and the backbone you present to peeling back the curtain some for people who don't tour and those who tour differently. At the end of the day, everyone's narrative is different and we all face this adversities and I really appreciated the time you took to make this! Y'all are bad ass. Keep on raging.
I'm absolutely stunned that you guys can do without a stable formation. That is an incredible level of professionalism.
I can't imagine a tour without a stable team. It is hard enough to just get used to each other. It's pretty scary that even with mostly sold-out shows you only barely managed to break even.
Back in the 90’s you would be absolutely ridiculed If you got a motel 6 (one room for whole band) one or 2 nights out of a 3 week tour. It was just stupid.
All off the musicians who enforced that got burned out or tired of being broke and eventually quit playing. The friends of mine who had guarantees and got hotels are still playing.
People get sick of hustlin for crap and probably start resenting even playing music by the end of it. Becuase it seems like they've taken the fun out of it and associate playing music with all of the BS that they chose to put themselves through.
Moral of this: Don't give a damn about what others think
@@eliasmg9144 words to live by
Is sleeping in a van somehow a badge of honor? “Wow, I’m a musician who sleeps in a van on tour. I’m so tough/dedicated/whatever term to massage my ego.” Getting a room somewhere is just common sense. If you want to play your best, you should probably get some quality rest (on a bed in a hotel/motel). I also agree with the other comments. Screw what other people think, do what is necessary to do your best.
@@icecold5707 adam sort of misrepresented what most of us actually make this decision on: can i afford this? will i have enough for my bills after this tour?
17k of costs for two weeks of running a business with multiple employees is basically a shoestring budget. It shouldn't be condemned, and it's impressive that you managed to pull it off with the little resources you had. Great work, and thank you for breaking it down.
my cost to do TWO WEEKS OF PAYING GIGS......is about $3 VS Neely's $17K.
I dare say he's going the wrong way about it.
My only expense is GAS to go a mile or two, were PEOPLE ARE and I just practice my isntruments outdoors.
STrangers hand me cash.
MAKING A LIVING AS A MUSICIAN LITERALLY COULD NOT BE EASIER.
Oh right: Neely and ALL bands did 9,0000% MORE LABOR than i to make exponentially less money than my EASY way!
ALSO: they had to SET UP and BREAK DOWN every day and I did not.....(!!).....AND they had to do all kinds of OTHER SHIT (like even book gigs, which makes NO SENSE) (why do you need to book a gig? YOU GO TO WHERE THE PEOPLE ARE......why would you ask them to come to YOU??? THat's illogical!)
(TRADITION......it's a HELLUVA DRUG!)
ALSO: THEY REALLY REALLY LOVE "THE GIG" (vs the other 23 hours on tour)......but why not be smar then?
I CAN DO AS MANY GIGS PER DAY AS I FEEL LIKE!
2 hours.
6 hours.
14 hours!
(I'll take breaks every once in a while to get food or piss, but that's it!)
WHY DON'T YOU ALL JUST PRACTICE OUTDOORS where the public is??
They'll just HAND YOU CASH.
The promoter gets 0%........EVERY TIME!
Is this a parody or did you watch the video at all Bon Jovi?
@@mcblahflooper94 he's just a troll, but he's funny and pretty elaborate. I like him.
@@mcblahflooper94 OF COURSE I WATCHED THE VIDEO. (Was your argument "this dude is so smart, he DEBUNKED each point by Neely.....without watching the video!")
Read my other comments in this thread where i OFFER EASY SOLUTIONS so all musicians can make easy money like I do.
@@thegrimreaper7 A TROLL is someone who is FAKE and INSINCERE, not someone who proves every body else wrong (or proves Tradition is DUMB and anti-logical)....but thanks for the kind words.
ALL HUMANS live lives that are FUCKED (both the rich and the poor!)....bc of IDIOT TRADITIONS that never made sense......and we are all LIED to or given BAD INFO from birth.....
....so I waste my time and money trying to HELP my fellow slaves here on earth......but NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED, sigh.
For one, I saw your first San Fran show and man it was worth every moment for me; I am truly honored to have seen you guys live, and will most definitely see you all again!
Second, I think it is very important to make videos like this, especially with me being a music student that will eventually have to do things like this, it is extremely eye opening for me to see what the minimal expenses are, and how people expect us to have terrible living conditions while touring. If I was on tour (which hopefully I will one day) I would 100% make sure to have a bed to sleep in; getting actual good rest makes a HUGE difference in day to day life, and especially something as taxing as a tour would be (as I would imagine).
And going along with that, and also the comment in the video that people don’t see music as a job, I get that ALL THE TIME! I’ve had friends tell me that “why are you tired? You’re not busy you’re just having fun!” and it is crazy to me people don’t see how much work music actually is.
Thank you for making this video; it’s very important for those of us who are wanting to make music a career, and the fact you’re willing to be transparent and share this info (even with the threat of EXTREME backlash) goes a long way. Keep doing what you’re doing, and can’t wait to see you guys live again. As a musician myself, I can relate to the idea that there’s nothing like live music, because there really isn’t
I've been a touring musician for years and, in my experience, most of the people saying things like "sleep in the van" are either just jealous that their band isn't doing as well or haven't toured at all. People seem to think that because music is 'fun' that it's not a 'job', thus we should all be treated like cattle.
It's literally the "i walked to school uphill both ways in the freezing rain every day" of live musicianship.
It's like first off, nah ya probably didn't actually do that and second off, that doesn't mean everyone should have to do it for eternity, or that it was right that you did it when you were young.
@@NoTengoIdeaGuey Yes exactly! I've done horrible tours like this before and the only thing I can say that I gained from the experience is back/neck issues lol
Agreed
Though I also think cattle shouldn't be treated 'like cattle' either ;)
@@programjm Couldn't agree more!
@@programjm i'm joking of course,
But if cattle are supposed to be treated more than how we treat cattle today, their welfare will increase exponentially until one day they might reach absolute luxury :P
But yeah, jokes aside, our treatments to cattle are still poor and needs to be improved
"I suffered before, so you must suffer now" is definitely one of the strangest narratives we as a species accept.
It's a justification for their suffering, otherwise they would have to admit, that it was for nothing and that's really hard.
@@LeonardGMN Now how are you going to assume it was for nothing? How can you say that struggle and strife have no relevance to ART?
@@JerryLeeHowell2 It's about the comparison with others, who can make art without suffering. It's not like you HAVE to suffer in order to make art.
@@LeonardGMN You are absolutely right on that. There is meaning in it, but there is meaning in many places. Good comment.
What an important video and channel. Thank you for your articulate and concise content, Adam
People condemn artists for making a living wage because they don't believe in themselves and their own dreams. They don't believe they deserve a good life and therefore don't think that other people should have one too. Thanks for making this video and opening the discussion, I think it's so important that people know what really goes on.
Also you cant pump your own gas in Oregon cause' it creates jobs.
I always knew bands weren't well compensated,
But the thought that their fellow musicians look down upon them for speaking out doesn't sit right with me.
Dude is all "but we were triple vaxxed" . Maybe if they put a big pfizer sticker on the van they could make a few bucks. Hell, they could have bought a van for what they spent
As someone who toured for ten years, a number of those years doing 150+ dates a year - thank you for telling this story. We did "sleep. in. the. van." - and while that was some of the most fun days of my life, it was also some of the most miserable. I became a social alcoholic over time, and eventually felt very "unworthy" of making more money as I started my own business once I left touring to be with my kids. It took years to overcome that. It does something to the human psyche when we are expected to sacrifice our own well being first, for the sake of "living the dream". As artists, it's our job to stand up for ourselves, and yet, we've continually given in, and the narrative has flipped to the artist being the bad guy just because they want basic human living arrangements for doing the thing they're great at. It's like artists have been gaslighted and now they just embrace it as "the way it's supposed to be"... and everyone will continue to suffer because of it. This bleeds into so many areas of the creative business, it's insane.
Have fun in Europe! We were always treated so much better over there.
what band you were my brother???
yes. AMERIKA IS THE WORST (plus it's STOOOOPID-large so it's 15 hours on the highway tween each market!!!)
WHEN I WAS designing my Art Factory in Brooklyn, part of my plan was a bunch of MURPHY BEDS that pop out of the wall..... so we could put up TOURING MUSICIANS from out of town, every night of the week!
SOLUTIONS ARE EASY.
Getting humans to CARE about solving problems is hard!
HUMANS JUST ACCEPT WHATEVER LIFE THROWS AT THEM.
Our adaptability is a plus AND a minus!
Where do you expect all this money to come from? They didn't sleep in a van, they got hotels....and look what happened: they lost 17,000 dollars. What do you people think the solution is? To just say "you deserve to sleep in a hotel" and then the money just materializes out of thin air?
@@zachary_attackery Maybe I communicated poorly what the main message of my post was, so I'll do my best to clarify.
From my previous post -
As artists, it's our job to stand up for ourselves, and yet, we've continually given in, and the narrative has flipped to the artist being the bad guy just because they want basic human living arrangements for doing the thing they're great at. It's like artists have been gaslighted and now they just embrace it as "the way it's supposed to be"... and everyone will continue to suffer because of it. This bleeds into so many areas of the creative business, it's insane.
Note - it's not about hotels. It's about the continual decline of artists own self worth over the years, and romanticizing being "poor" until it's an expectation among EVERYONE.
The answer could be that artists have to start taking back their own business rather than putting it into other people's hands.
It could be that they need to first feel like they "deserve" to be treated like professionals, rather than assuming that they won't be, and having venues and promoters plan accordingly.
Business is a negotiation. Always has been and always will be. But since artists have let people negotiate on their behalf and have romanticized discomfort for so many years, the people who make money on the bar will gladly pocket that extra $300 that could've been a bed for a few folks and say "They can just sleep in the van. It's what they do."
This is not a budget problem, it's a culture problem, which is much harder to fix.
@@stopthestarvingartist very very well put.
I was super engrossed in this Odyssey-like tale, and then BLAM that incredible double sax sequence with Grace Kelly dropkicked my mind. Great video!
Kudos for the perseverance, transparency, passion and making the video. Non musicians can't immagine the behind the scene fatique. And you haven't spoken about creating the connections and coordination of the gigs themselves, rehearsals, bookings, endless phones and mails, complex administration and thus the over all daily stress of emergency problem solving...while driving thousands of miles, setting all instruments and amplification, sound checks, performances, packing up everything, sleeping late and all over again the next day. And Covid as an extra...
You were so positive about the entire thing that the real reality was not depicted. It's not only about the money.
Great compliments!
Last time I toured as a band leader was pre-Covid, but I still had a panic attack, lost money, worried about the comfort and safety of my bandmates, didn’t sleep much… and also had transformative musical experiences onstage. However, tbh I’m SCARED to do it again!
Absolutely wild to me that artists are expected to be exploited labor. I mean, all forms of labor, but musicians especially. Also how many people expect to get free tickets (if the band gets anything close to notorious) from friends and family AND not be annoyed when the band is growing in the local scene.
"Suffer to make good art" is such a dumb prerrogative.
It also seems like most people don't realise there can be a middle ground. Not every band/musician is extremely poor or extremely rich.
Even worse than dumb, it’s convenient propaganda. Perpetuates exploitation and poverty and shuts down anyone who dares speak out, even entirely neutrally.
I think most people still don't see art as labor, but as leisure. So they fail to see a reason why people should be financially compensated for making art.
What does free tickets have to do with notoriety in the local scene?
@@gpeddino But then they partake in consuming it everyday, enriching middle men. Why is it more respectable and deserving of wealth to just be a person solely dedicated to the exploitation of an artist, but actually creating the thing is bad? I just don't get it. (Not blaming you, this is just a frustrating topic so it angers me)
This walkdown was SO well done. I'm late to this video, but it underlines how incredibly risky the live music world really is. Thank you for posting the story. Best to you all.
Thank you for sharing this most humbling of insights into a world I know nothing about. I cannot overstate how much I respect the courage you exhibit, sharing not only an opinion, but also your touring expenses on the internet - given the precedents you mentionned.
The way you contextualize this ever-growing number and the differing ways of looking at it is - for lack of better words - humbling and insightful.
Re: shaming expenses for not “paying your dues” (sleeping in the van)… goes back to our culture of glorifying self destruction: we slept in the van, drank so much, worked so late, ate so badly… what more could have been done so much better if we pay attention and give ourselves permission to do things correctly. Thanks for your channel, enjoy it a lot!
I think that many just want to be tough and that many don't want to realize that the world is unfair. I've been through bad times, so you have to too. Otherwise, my suffering would have been unfair and for nothing. You would have to admit to yourself that you made mistake, and many people don't want that. Being "tougher" than the others is just another justification. It's usually a problem in jobs that are typically considered to be hard, even thou they don't need to be hard anymore.
Sounds like your problem was drinking and eating badly, not sleeping in a van...
it's easier to blame individuals for perceived weakness than to realize you exist in a deeply unjust system and are powerless to change it
Spot on. "Slept in a van with a herniated disc" is not tough, it's just plain stupid.
Using the days off to work for door dash? Yeah sure. Go working while being on tour. Great idea.
Also, why are people even complaining about the Airbnb expenses? $1,000 for a whole band for a few nights sounds pretty cheap to me.
Yeah you could have got hotel rooms and lost 17 grand like these guys did
Considering how messed up this tour was, I feel extremely lucky to have caught a show in SF. The band sounded amazing
Same but in Seattle. It was a blast seeing them live
Thank you for making this video. I bet Jared has shared with you guys about his tour with Evolfo. I was at their show at cactus club mke and pretty sure I got the same string of covid as y’all. I know this video is about touring financials and not so much about safety regarding post pandemic live music, but I just want to echo the sentiments of Evolfo’s Instagram posts announcing their positive results. As a fan of your work, I hope our community does everything we can to take care of the professionals who work so hard to share their wonderful songs with us. As you guys acknowledge, the factors of health and financial risk in live music are now inseparable. I want everyone who participates in that experience to understand and take responsibility for supporting your work. Thank you Jared and all of your friends for playing your hearts out for such a thin crowd in Milwaukee. I bought two tickets and couldn’t find a friend to join me for the show. Even if it was a loss for you guys, I want you to know how special it is to your fans. Sungazer, please come to the Midwest soon, I’ll be first in line. Thank you for everything you do, keep it up.
I have promoted hundreds of club events in my days, and I know for a fact that if you spoil your artists, their management will spoil you back. My highest priority was getting that mail from their management saying "they had a wonderful time playing at your event!" When the rumour started going they would offer to play for less just because they knew they wouldnt have to put up with any crap at our events.
Music is considered a service, and services are EXPECTED to be at the detriment of the providers.
Musicians are humans, and deserve to be in an environment that they can thrive in while they are working, performing locally, touring, what have you.
What's obscene isn't musicians having creature comforts, it's people demanding that they shouldn't.
Y'all deserve to recoup travel expenses without "sleeping in the van" I traveled extensively with a tech company, stayed in good hotels and ate well. In my opinion your shows have more value than many of the meetings I traveled across the country to have. Keep on making music........
Exactly. I've traveled across the country, sometimes across Europe for my (also tech) company. Slept in some great hotels, slept in some rubbish ones. You win some, you lose some. All the while making the company some good money. Now what's the value like? I'd like to think creating a wonderful, memorable experience for hundreds of people on a couple of evenings spread out over a week has so much more value than me setting up some IT system for some company in some city in another country. So why the fuck should I get to sleep in a nice hotel every night while the touring band doesn't? Makes no sense at all. The sad reality is: I work in a high-demand industry for other companies. They know the value of my work and therefore pay my company for me to do it. Music on the other hand is chronically undervalued, and people don't like to spend much on tickets. Which is entirely understandable, but hey, touring is fucking expensive, so the money has to come from somewhere.
But corporations > art cause they do useful things, amirite?
The way western culture looks at value and rewards it is moronic.
@@TheDevNell On top of that, in my experience 99/100 people have a favourite artist, or listen to music almost as an integral part of their day. For something so ingrained in Western culture, it seems so easily overlooked.
@@InterFelix I think the problem is not that music is undervalued per se, it's that there are far too many musicians. There are several reasons for this, but one is that those who can't make a decent living by playing their instruments often make the situation even worse by teaching more people to play. I don't think unemployed IT techs do this.
The shows are worth what people will pay. Company meetings aren't the same as going to see a few dudes play a couple songs while you drink a beer and hang for a bit lol
ALSO hoping to see a video about your Europe tour and looking forward to seeing how your experience was!!
Great video. People have no clue how tough and brutal and humbling touring is. I can tell you the smelly alleys we had to unload in, worried about equipment theft while we slept in a hotel at night, the clubs with crappy loading and ungrateful owners who give you 5 mins to setup and 5 to tear down. The list is endless. It takes massive dedication to your craft and band to endure touring.
I did an east coast "tour" with my shitty punk band, when I was 20 and my band mates were in their 50s and still "keeping the faith". Spent two months sleeping in the van with three other dudes who lived on beer and cigarettes, took hooker baths in gas station bathrooms, often we didn't even have gas money to get to the next show, I got robbed, it was generally a garbage experience I never wanted to go through again.
I'm sorry this happened to you.
Sleep. In. A. Tent.
I still don't understand why some people would glorify this kind of experience! I'm so sorry you had to go through that.
when i was younger i always thought i'd want to tour some day but i remember reading all the road reports from the big bands and literally every single guy said he hated touring and pointed out things that sucked (and would suck for me personally too) so i kinda thought to myself...."fuck this shit, i'm just gonna play local shows, don't care about anything, make no money with the shows and get a real job" lol
so many variables.
EX:
i thought I'd HATE touring (b/c I'm a Mad Scientist Musician who wants to be in my lab 24/7 working on great art, rather than driving 15 hours on a Murican highway) but i LOVED IT.
Helped that I was with AWESOME friends so even 15 hour drives were a blast.
Plus we were smarter than most bands so much more efficient.
"Sleep in the van!" - yes, I did, and I'd like to punch everyone in the face who proposes so.
Been touring about 12 years ago, at the age of 32, 800 km from home, in a van with four other musicians, all our gear and four big backpacks. For "just" four days, meaning three (!) nights. Here is my experience:
1st night: you're tired and done after the gig, but instead of resting in a bed where you can get at least some dearly needed recreation, you sleep in a car seat with a blanket and jacket above you, because it is 7° celsius outside. You wake up with a numb face, and maybe about 3 hours sleep.
2nd night: every bone in your body aches, after the second gig - everyone is pissed on way or another because we all didn't get enough sleep. So off to McDonalds we go and then back to our full packed van. This night more sleep - but a sore throat the other morning. Thank god I am no singer.
3rd night: the last gig was just awful: concentration was down, my hands feel rigid and as if they're filled with led. Thank god, it's the last night in that f****** van! At about 2 AM some stupid knock on the window, drunk as fuck, trying to get inside the van. No sleep until 5.30 AM. Followed by half an hour of sleep.
Then back home, 800 kilometers. That next week, I felt completely destroyed, constantly pissed off and on a short fuse.
Never again I'll sleep in the FUCKING van!!!
You humans need to do more PROBLEM SOLVING.
ex:
when we tour in a vehicle, the cab is FILLED with quilts and pillows, so any of us can fall asleep IN ANY POSITION while the vehicle is on the highway!
Mold the softness to your form!
ex:
I LOVE sleeping in my Disco Explosion van on road trips for music!
Cuz i made it FUN AND COMFY and FABULOUS!
(Plus, I'm smart so I do NOT take ALL KINDS OF GEAR on tours. You keep it as MINIMAL AS POSSIBLE, and you'll have a lot more fun!)
You’re 32,800 km old???
@@turingmachine7905 I was 32 years old, and 800 km from home. In europe numbers have a decimal point not a comma - I always forget.
@@jonbongjovi1869 Alas, I can learn from a master of our kin! But since you are so smart, please allow me to learn by your example: what kind of gear do you take with you?
Don't think we had all sorts of shit aboard, but allow me to introduce you to the reality:we were facing at the time:
Our dummer had only his snare and four of his cymbals with him, which was already a contribution to saving space. A guitar, a bass guitar, a keyboard. A box with cables and adapters, our pre-amps (no cabs), three mics, plus mic stands, cable for electricity (yep, not every venue is prepared for this) plus some tools that might come in handy. And yes, you need a second pair of clothes, believe it or not! With all that stuff in a van, you might still have some space left, but most people would call this cosy only for a few hours at best.
See the point is: to perform, to give your best, you should be well rested and in a good mood - that's what you owe to a paying audience. I don't see no need for musicians to suffer or show under how bad circumstances they can perform: what exactly should this proof?
@@shaihulud4515 I'll GLADLY answer your questions.
EX:
ALL DRUMMERS ARE SUPER-MORONS.
EX:
they don't need such a BIG AND LOUD DUMB-KIT.
(Drums had to get bigger to be heard over the BRASS band! Today, the guitarists have to get bigger amps to be heard over the STOOPID TOO-BIG DRUMS.)
EX:
I play a $200 LUDWIG JR (!) microdrumkit. EVERY OTHER DRUMMER says it sounds amazing and several drummers told me they followed my lead and bought a 3/4 DRUMKIT as that's easier to throw into the back seat of a car for easy gigs, plus they can practice outdoors as I do, since I'm not a moron! Takes me 30 SECONDS to set up my drums or break them down, proving AGAIN that all drummers are idiots galore!
OBVIOUSLY there are a million OTHER perks to playing a JR drumkit, like your hearing will be safer etc.
SCIENCE MATTERS.
more......in a moment...
You guys are awesome. This video is a beast. Thank you for sharing!
It's really cool seeing you jump from rehearsal to performance for the specific grooves!
Telling a touring musician to "sleep in the van" is equivalent to asking an airline pilot to just sleep in the plane. It's ridiculous that basic needs are being equated to luxuries.
I get your sentiment, but I think asking a pilot to sleep in the plane is more like asking a musician to just sleep on the stage hahaha
@@hamsandwich6685 you're right, it's even worse!
Well, pilots sometimes do actually sleep in the plane, there's a little compartment behind the cockpit to do just that. The big difference is, there's always at least two pilots in every flight and there should be at least a third if one goes to sleep. Imagine if musicians had to bring in replacements just to get a place and a time to get some rest lol
@@NanoMan737400 The difference is pilots are actually paid a lot. They sleep in the plane not because they can't afford normal conditions, but because their normal conditions are not accessible mid flight. Very different things
I won’t sleep in the van. I cannot stand somebody else farts.
So... I'm 17, and I graduate this year. I want to study music but THIS. Like omg THIS is what scares the fuck out of me. I sometimes think I wouldn't be able to handle so much pressure and stress, and PLAY WELL at the same time. I admire all of you tremendously for that, and I just wanted to say thank you for being so brave and making this video (and going on tour despite everything).
I’m an orchestral musician. My advice to you: there’s value to doing something you’re afraid of. BUT if you want to be involved in music and actually paid a living wage, go the administration route. Plus I feel like you don’t have to be the absolute world’s best administrative person to do well.
Something to realize…. Making it in music.. you must: read, write and play well.
Also it’s the music industry. You can work in several positions even at the same time I.e.
bartender, performer, private instructor, sound guy, arranger/composer, stage crew, etc… so don’t limit yourself to just one aspect in such a large field!
Like these guys said, learn to wear as many hats as you can -- even if you don't have cover multiple roles, you'll be able to keep an eye on whomever is covering other roles. And a decent manager can allow a great deal of the harshness of the road to be avoided.
Well said. Thank you for the joy you bring to the universe through your amazing music.
This was a great video, thanks for posting it, I will certainly be thinking about it next time I see the prices for a band that comes through my city.
This whole thing about sleeping in the van is really mind boggling to me... As a musician every time I've gone on a trip to play music, accommodation has never been an issue. We always found a cheap youth hostel to sleep in. Or if the trip was particularly long we would sleep in the bus during the driving which of course saves money.
Expecting musicians to live in subhuman conditions makes no sense to me. Just because they've chosen an artistic career they're not entitled to the same living conditions as the average working man? Ludicrous. Let musicians live in humane conditions and the music will profit from it and sound even better.
What's even worse is seeing journalists writing that kind of BS. I wonder if they'd sleep in their car/van if they had to do field reporting somewhere away from where they live... Then to have the audacity to write asinine stuff like "I miss Punk Rock", as if musicians didn't have to pay bills, didn't have to eat, or didn't have to buy very expensive gear to perform and record; I wonder when that journalist will open up his own underground fanzine instead of publishing in a commercial outlet that probably pays him, at the very least, a reasonable salary.
I've slept in my car 1 time. It was in the winter. It was incredibly cold, insanely uncomfortable, and I was not rested at all. To the point where the next day I barely functioned... telling people to sleep in vans for extended periods of time is just irresponsible. It's seriously bad for you health and can cause accidents. However. I don't think you need to book a room for every musician. Sharing rooms is a compromise that can be made for the extend of a tour. That is: if your hotels/hostels allow for such a thing.
Lots of musicians sleep in the van. This has been the case since the dawn of time. Why are ya'll acting like this is something new. It's literally what you're supposed to prepare for. The "digital tour bus" channel makes vids dedicated to how musicians get creative with how they make their vans cozy and comfortable. Get smart and get creative. Ya'll must've of grown up privileged as fuck if you expected the world to do everything for you.
@@jbulletc just because it has been done for a long time doesn't mean it's an acceptable thing. There's also a big difference between touring cars (with bunk beds) and vans...
@@SyntheticFuture that's another matter entirely of course. But as long as there are enough beds I think that that's fine
I'm the drummer in a band, Painting Fences, and we just went on a 2 week tour the beginning of March, and did pretty much the same tour in October last year. We're from Phx AZ and have a band van with trailer, so we drove through New Mexico and Texas into Oklahoma where our singer lives so we could stay a few days at his house, then drove back the way we came. Played about 10 gigs each tour, with one or two cancelled shows due to covid issues. We split the time pretty evenly between sleep in the van, sleep at a friend's house, and sleep in a hotel. We also split our meals pretty evenly between cheap fast food, hole-in-the-wall family owned type restaurants (you gotta try Arbuckle Mountain Fried Pies), and ham sandwiches from the cooler in the van (literally just bread and ham). We were our own road crew and tour managers, used an app to find the cheapest gas, and all in all we made enough money between guarantees/door sales and merch to take away about $100 each. If I include the time off of work that means I lost about $400-500 personally but it is still what I love doing. I absolutely feel this sentiment that musicians are expected to just work and create and perform for little more than applause, and I will gladly do so because it feeds my soul, but damn I really wish it could also at least help feed my cat once in a while.
Whole video was awesome. And that intro was hands-down one of the best youtube intros I've ever seen. That 'anyway' had so much momentum behind it
Great video! Thanks for sharing with those of us out there in the audience....
Some people got themselves 20 years into conservatories, sweat all their water through mastering an instrument, get smashed at auditions, somehow get the nerves to succeed, manage to buy or get in debt to buy a 5 digits instruments, topping among the most skilled and trained musicians, humbly trying to pursue a long line of sound craftsmanship, all that to potentially play at a wedding gigs where the photograph who's out from his 2 months online formation bootcamp will get paid 700€ a day no negotiation + adding a fee for the rental of his equipment while you have to explain your 150€ fee isn't 150€ for you and your singer but 150 each.
Feels like being in matrix when you have to explain musician colleagues it's not ok to play on gigs where musicians travel and accommodation costs are ''half-compensated''.
The cinema and audiovisual industry at high level have much better practices that we should probably line up on.
That's exactly how it is. I myself am someone who got into music (playing & studying it) at 18, and wanted to pursue it professionally. I am now in my mid 20s, and have a job that will, oddly enough, allow me to buy myself better instruments & gear than if I were a musician, all while still having enough money for food and other stuff. Now, if I werea musician, I could honestly forget about having a good grand piano, nevermind a place to put it. I love music more than anything, but professional music is defeatist as hell, and if you hadn't even started before you turned 18... that's uphill battle in something that's already difficult even for the best of the best.
As a professional graphic designer and photographer, wedding photography is not that cut and dry. Moreover craft and skill doesn't need a college degree to be valuable whether it's in the visual arts or the musical. I've NEVER gotten $700 dollars a day no nogotiation. Moreover I've had friends and family ask me to do their weddings for free, and with clients I've had them say, "oh my son has a 100 dollar consumer level dSLR why should I pay you money to take pictures?" I went to college but some of the best artists, designers, and photographers I've worked with didn't. Or else they got their degree in a completely different field. Also (at least where I'm from) most photographers don't rent their gear, or only rent a very specialized equipment. Also when you pay for wedding photography you also pay for all the editing and post production work of photography. That isn't even including videography which usually needs a team of people to do video and photo. I do not do wedding photography very much and when I do, I often regret it. Also I shoot film photography (for a number of different reasons) so the cost of film, development, printing and scanning also has to factor into my costs. Furthermore, professional film cameras, lenses, etc are incredibly expensive and I use several cameras and lenses for different things. I even use Large Format cameras sometimes. That isn't counting the work that I put into designing and printing the photo books that I print directly from the film (it produces a much better reproduction than inkjet printing).
Your thesis is correct, creative professionals need to make more money, but attacking another creative professional and their percived value relative to yours leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.
@@purple-flowers You miss the point. In no way I am under evaluating the job of a wedding photographer. I'm wokring in the cinema industry as a music video producer, I know both sides. I'm just pointing out the fact that for a similar educational background in the entertainment industry, or even less professional experience, audiovisual workforces have much better practices and ratings compared to musicians who are often supposed to PAY to play. It's another whole level of disaster. That being said there is also abuses because the industry is trending, similar situation happens with web devs.
Meanwhile most people are clueless about the dedication it needs to qualify as an average professional musician, neither they know all the necessary preproduction for a gig. It's not about a degree it's about starting in your mother's belly if you want to seriously outcompete the industry.
The fact that you've never gotten 700USD doesn't mean your case is the truth for a whole industry. Some people actually invoice easily three times that amount, because generally speaking people would put a bigger priority on the budget for their weddings photography while musicians can be replaced by a CD without being a big deal, and because someone would do it for free anyway, while you try to pay back the 50.000€ you borrowed to buy your cello.
A lot of the problem is the idea that musicians are "supposed" to enjoy doing their job regardless of pay, and people take ruthless advantage of that.
@@squelchedotter same reason game developers are severely underpaid compared to other programming / digital art careers in other fields. Never let on that you're doing something you enjoy, it takes away leverage in this stupid system.
In France we have an economic support of the state, wich is call "Intermittence". We justify a number of concert (43) for the last 12 month (like officials, with declared salary) and get remuneration for 12 month. It helps. And there is a big culture of financial support for the concert places, allowing concert places to pay more the band, which allows to make a tour not necessarily rewarding, but at least without loss... As a professional musicians in France, without this conditions I think I would have another Job...
goated france
@@sydknee604 Same way in Belgium (but the status name is different)
That is why we pay taxes, that is why Europe states are socially absurdily more powerful than USA. I can not imagine anything like that in a country so neoliberal.
@@TheAmonraul Or free.
@@michelrostain1121 Absolutely not... We do not have anything similar. The artist status does not work that way and has become very difficult to obtain, especially for musicians. This is one of the reasons there is very little original music that is being made, at least in Wallonia.
As a musician that has always loved the idea of touring, this is amazing. I am sorry that people treat you guys like this online. This is eye opening and a great learning experience. I appreciate that you guys took this risk and spent so much time breaking it down. Thank you!
huge respect for you guys! Not only musically, but also on entrepeneurial side. Thanks for opening up this discussion!
You (a touring musician) deserve all the basic working conditions like anyone else. This sleep in the van thing is from an era of people that spent $0 on their music education and wanted to make it big (which in some cases they did). And that’s the mentality- musicians are just hobbyists out there that are struggling to make it. They are not seen as educated people who have invested in their careers and this is their job. Ask someone who works for a company to travel for work and sleep in the van or even share a bed.
Best of luck. Your music has quality. World needs more of it.
Nobody "deserves" anything. If they make enough money, then they can pay for hotels. If they can't, then they can find somewhere else to sleep (the van), or they can spend money they don't have and lose 17 grand on hotel rooms. The money doesn't just materialize out of nowhere because you think they "deserve" it. Someone travelling for a company actually earns money to pay for hotels, otherwise the company wouldn't send the employee out to travel. This band clearly isn't earning as much money as they think they're entitled to.
@@zachary_attackery clearly you don’t understand how companies work lol
@@ricardoneves5094 answer the question: where does the money come from for a band to pay for the "basic working conditions" that you think they deserve?
You'll never answer. You'll just come up with more BS non-answers like "you don't understand how bands work, you don't understand how touring works".
@@zachary_attackery they did have the money to spend because they planned the tour beforehand and calculated their expenses based on the shows. What they didn't account for was all the extra money they had to pay because of covid, which is something you absolutely can't account for. Even having a car accident can be something that destroys all your planning, it's unexpected and uncontrollable. Don't be fucking stupid, you wouldn't tell anyone else on a regular job and traveling to sleep in a car, so why would you ask that from musicians? It's still a job as any other.
@@zachary_attackery They do deserve it, if they were employed by a company, it would be unethical for the company to send them on a work trip without the proper preperations for a work trip. But there is no overhead company sending them, they are essentially going on a trip themselves. I think it would be fair to say that _should_ be a little expensive in general, tourism & such can place a strain on an area if it isnt somehow recouperated in cost. However, that doesn't mean you can't say "there should be some improvements in infrustracture to make that cheaper" or "touring should be subsidized as a cultural resource" or what have you. And also, this video did not mention "deserving" at all, at the start they are just saying that their touring cost is not like the dril candles tweet. that wanting to not sleep in a van is not some kind of crazy thing to spend money on.
The "sleep in the van" cliché is a tired boomerism. They're literally saying "I had to suffer so you do too." Why would anyone in their right mind WANT the artist they're seeing to be poor, exhausted, hungry and likely experiencing crippling back pain during a show YOU paid for? It's a selfish attitude.
I was a couple feet from the stage at the Seattle show--absolutely fantastic performance!! Can't wait for you guys to come back 💕
well said.
Why make it about age, when it isn't? I'm a boomer, and I toured for years mostly on planes, and sleeping in my own hotel rooms. Anyone who thinks touring on a van is some romantic thing isn't saying that because they're a part of a specific age group. They're saying it because they're willing to live that way...and I imagine most of those comments come from people who are both young, and have no experience making it in the music biz. They'll be in some other business five years from now.
I stayed in my own private room when I played Austin City Limits and SXSW. I don't think that makes me a chump. I think it makes me a person who knows what I'm worth, and doesn't do shows for cheap. And like Adam, my income streams are diversified.
you have to accept ,usic is just not a very valuable contribution to the world unless you're on the level of Mozart or Playboi Carti for instance
y'all are weird.
LOGICALLY....you'd make the van SUPER-COMFY!
My Disco Explosion CHevy Van is THE COOLEST BEDROOM OF ALL TIME!
Why would you NOT WANT to sleep in the van?
Oh: cuz humans aren't Problem Solvers.
@@ashypharaoh8407 Mozart should NOT be mentioned in the same breath as Carti 😤😤😤😤😤😈😈😈🧛🧛🧛🧛🧛🧛
Thank you all for putting up with the difficulties and providing your music despite them.
I was in a band as a second guitarist replacement for a 3 week tour in Europe in 2018. I wasn't paid or anything, I just figured it was an OK way to visit some countries without any big expense that I otherwise probably wouldn't, and the guys were my friends as our bands previously gigged together.
I had no significant financial risk (all the lodging and travel expenses were covered by the band leader, we were just to provide food for ourselves when there was nothing arranged), other than the risk that I'd have to find a way back home if something went really bad at some point.
The tour ended up being ~7000 EUR in the red (17 shows, plus one we had to cancel). It would be in the 5 digit range if we'd count the tour merch expense (but that got sold online later on well after the tour, so it maybe lessened the loss a bit at a later date).
The thing is, there were 8 of us in a 9 person van (driver, merch person and the 6 of us band members), so sleeping in the van would be impossible (we were also . 3 nights we had to pay for the hostels, the rest were either sleeping at friends places (we were very lucky that the singer was friends with someone from almost any city we played in) or lodging was part of the deal with the venue.
I did the DIY sleep in the van/train station/tent/hospital waiting room/park bench thing previously, but that works only when you are young enough to not care for possible consequences, or are hooked on using some sorts of, ehm, "mood enhancers". Even with what ended up being altogether decent sleeping arrangements, due to scheduling, we had 3 or 4 nights of very little sleep, and at the end of the second week, you'd feel that reflected negatively on the band. We played better than ever on stage, but were completely braindead the last week of tour, and I can't even fathom oh that would look on a tour of double the size.
Also, after returning from the tour, I felt a complete burnout, so I lowered my band activities significantly for the next year or so. The bass player sold his equipment and stopped playing for a similar time. The rest of the band from what I know (I was supposed to join them as a full time member, but decided against it due to said burnout) also had close to zero activity for the next 7 months.
Fun fact - if the band didn't hire a "tour manager" (he had decent previous reviews from other touring bands) and just played the gigs we had direct contact with the venues for, we would have played 5 shows less, would have broken even and have more time to actually enjoy the tour a fair bit more as it would eliminate roughly half of the travel distance as well, so think twice on using their services.
You played for free???? YOU ARE the problem!!!!! Professionals don’t play for free- unless for a REAL VALID Verifiable charity or reason. It’s absurd and the opposite definition of the word professional.
Let me ask. Would a professional sports team be expected to "Sleep in the Van" or drive all night to make it to the next game? I think most sports fans would see basic living and travel expenses as necessary for team to be in its best shape to perform. Why is this not extended to professional musicians?
I think the argument is that if you aren't making enough money as a musician to afford your expenses, then that should simply not be a job you are pursuing as a professional career. We would expect professional athletes to have all their needs taken care of because we know their industry takes in billions of dollars (and they are not independent), so the alternative is the money just going to some already rich executives. For independent bands on the other hand, the money would be coming "directly" from the fans. There definitely still is a flaw in this logic though because anyone who would say "sleep in the van" should be saying "don't tour" (or be saying nothing at all), unless they feel entitled to experiencing live music regardless of the hardships endured by the musicians.
Actually a lot of players in the development sports teams do endure this kind of treatment(maybe not sleep in your van but certainly sleep on the bus to get to your next game). The truth is if you havent “made it” in whatever entrepreneurial, athletic, or creative space you are trying to pursue you often have to go through a lot of hardship (to what extent is obviously up for debate but the mentality that it’s just creatives that are treated poorly is just not true)
Not to take away from your point, but baseball has a similar problem. Those that are cutting their teeth in the minor leagues get paid pennies compared to the salaries offered within in the MLB. And them too are told to "suck it up, you'll hit it big one day." Its sad.
Supply and demand, Chris, supply and demand
@@sunny1992s are they professionals though? Genuinely asking, baseball is not big outside the US so I have no idea
Adam i was the dude in the opeth shirt who talked to you after the Denver show. You guys seriously put on an incredible show, along with dandu
That was a blast
@@dandu32 hell yeah you guys killed it
@@dandu32 you guys were sick :)
I was there too and talked to him before the show, great show
Thanks for this video. I really enjoyed. I've watched a lot of your videos and find them interesting and informative. We gotta get you to some Phish shows.
What about owning ( not renting) a C Class RV and towing an enclosed equipment trailer, (all aluminum 24'), to help cut down some hotel expenses and eating out all the time. Make traveling on the road a little easier on the band, and not stuffed in a tiny van. A C Class RV or a 5th wheel toy hauler type RV, can sleep and feed 6 people on the road, but still get hotels when needed. The equipment trailer has a draw bridge on the back with side door, the drum set can have wheels added to the Pearl drum rack so it can roll into the trailer and strapped down quickly a full assembled drum set, no tear down, the rest of bands equipment such as the electronic keyboards and sax, bass guitar into cases with wheels, and rolled into the trailer for fast load times, again make it easy on everyone. Think about getting a used but fairly new couple years old but reliable RV and trailer and have them check by RV expert and mechanic if your going to tour a lot more in the future, hope you and the band make a huge profit and have fun doing it.
Adam doesn't only half manage a tour and its costs, he also vlogs it while performing and playing incredibly in each show. I hope for you guys to be able to tour to South America and meet you in person. You are teaching the world a lot of things I would like to thank you for personally someday
The response is "playing jazz"
Yeah, never a smart financial decision.
Absolute full respect for not only being able to make music like this but actually making it work like this too. Much stress and hardship but ultimately an absolutely brilliant end product
It takes so much passion and dedication to do what you do (online and on tour, not even mentioning being a hardworking and talented musician/teacher/youtuber/etc ...). Forget the haters, You Rock !!!
This was brilliant Adam babe! Chuffed you guys managed to break even! xxx
Thinking about how after all that extra travel, hotel stays and downtime and still being able to break even. Which tells me if not for Covid they would have turned an OK profit. Which means, it actually is possible to actually have nice things and make money touring. Being able to sell out shows and negotiate decent payment from venues helps too.