#UPDATE So, it’s not surprising that there's been a significant amount of negativity and angst in the comments. We know this can be an emotional topic for some groups of people. *Q. Why risk it by making this video?* It’s because some vegans respectfully asked, that we felt it might be worthwhile to make this video. We keep reminding ourselves that the loudest do not represent the majority, and that there are those who are genuinely curious and open-minded. We knew it would be rough when we opened up this dialogue. Just imagine making a video where the overall message is that we should all work together and do better, and receiving a comment that says "a video like this is totally out of place and inappropriate”, simply because we don't share the same opinions. We accepted the risk that no matter how good the intentions, there will still be those who simply go “unsubscribed!” and “dislike!!” without even properly consuming the content. *RE: Open, thoughtful dialogue* It’s been both intellectually stimulating and exhausting, spending an entire Sunday responding to as many comments as I can. To those who challenged our beliefs in a respectful manner, we thank you all so much. We love having these intellectually stimulating conversations, and we believe they help to progress us towards doing “better”. The problem is with the exhausting conversations. It’s no longer viable for us to continue wasting our energy on conversations we think are going nowhere. We’ll have to pick and choose where we spend our time. These are some red flags: - Those who show a serious lack of maturity, respect and reason (name-calling, making bad assumptions, letting emotions get the better of them, etc.) - Those who don't respond well to having their beliefs challenged, but are trigger-happy about rudely challenging others' - Those who claim to be open-minded, but are obviously obsessed about being "right" But sometimes, if we didn't respond to your comment, it may simply be because we missed out or lost track, so please don’t take it personally. -- That's all for now, but we’ll update this pinned comment with further information when necessary as time goes by. Have a good one!
Thank you for making this video. If more content creators/news media encouraged respectful discussion as you have here rather than simply pleasing their audience by saying things they already believe and like to hear, the world might be a more pleasant and understanding place. So thank you for pushing that needle just a tiny bit in the right direction! I think you did the right thing making this video. Just a quick footnote. I suspect why we sometimes cannot have constructive discussions is that we are usually deep inside an echo chamber and so when we hear a dissenting voice, we feel very justified to react with outrage. It's like how we might react if someone told us they believe that it's ok to torture children for fun. We'd react with outrage rather than sit down for a calm exchange of ideas. I am not sure what to do with this. On one hand, I think people are this way because they strongly believe in right/wrong, which is kinda a good thing. But at the same time it's really polarizing the world and it gets pretty ugly. Oh well... life is complicated. Have a good day!
I think veganism is a simple argument: Do animals deserve to live? I don't believe hurting or killing animals is the right choice. People who eat animals don't believe that enough to change their actions. That may be hard to hear, but it is the plain truth. You can preach openness and kindness but remember animals are always the third party in these discussions, and you are ignoring them because its more comfortable than looking at the truth. With 1 trillion fish and 80 billion land animals a year, as well as the pollution and water/grain wastage (that is 80% of our yeild, the plants humans eat are only 20% of the crops) from animal products, its the least minimalist thing you can do. And if you only care about humans, well its not fair so many people are forced to kill repeatedly everyday in slaughterhouses- many are stressed, underpaid and traumatised. Not everyone has the privilege to turn away. Pignorent, Dominion, Gamechangers, Earthlings, Cowspiracy - pick one and watch it. Pignorent is the most recent, and Earthlings is what opened my eyes long before people knew what a vegan was.
I went vegan six years ago because where I live and in my life situation, factory farming is the way animal products are produced and I am in a position to be able to make the choice not to participate in that system. For me it's an ethical and environmental decision, any health benefits are a bonus. Health is not always a benefit in veganism because it's totally possible to be a junk food vegan and hardly ever eat vegetables. Most ways of eating can be healthy or not depending on how you go about it. I try to make healthy choices and after the initial learning curve find that my plant based diet is easy to maintain and less expensive. I don't think the all or nothing approach is realistic. Life is way more complicated. Everyone's circumstances are unique to them and we all can only do what's best for us and within our means. Educate yourself (using non-biased sources) and make conscious choices for how you want to live. Once I learned about the animal agriculture industry my choice was clear, but I also think that being kind to people is just as important as being kind to animals.
Excellently put! I think one of the things I didn’t expect about being fully vegan was how much better it made me feel emotionally on a day to day basis - like a weight had been lifted. I think perhaps some members of the vegan community see it as their responsibility to try and ‘free’ everyone, but that’s simply not how humans work. We gotta make our own choices in our own time, as it’ll never stick or make us happy otherwise.
I would suggest watching videos of Earthling Ed. He puts the vegan case often in discussion with non vegans. He is known for calm reasoned argument. It makes for good viewing, a point made by many of those (including meat eaters) commenting on his presentations. It is educational too.
We're actually very familiar with Ed's content. I like how calm he is; the issue is it's easy to look convincing when debating with unsuspecting passersby, making his content a little skewed. Still, nothing against him :)
I would recommend finding out about nutritionists who've been working on specific nutrients for several years or even decades. There is one female scientist in that field who said that she has been working for 10 years or so on choline. I had a quick glimpse on her in a video that was from an Austrian nutritionist. I wouldn't recommend watching videos on nutrition from someone who doesn't even have a masters degree in that field (or no special interest with a focus on science, I mean real science, in mind).
I became vegan at the recommendation of my cardiologist. So health was the predominant factor. Seeing the earth being destroyed by factory farming makes me feel like it is a human imperative. But I also agree that millions of people doing better would be a great start to lasting change.
My ethical viewpoint is that if you are able to kill the animal yourself and live with the consequential bad feelings of doing so it's fine. I've got family in poorer parts of Asia who do several times a week and cherish every single part of the animal, which I celebrate and have zero issue with. However, what's not cool is the industrialisation of animal farming, turning what is a sentient animal into a "product" in which you have no attachment to when you eat. I'm not vegan, but vegetarian, and I live with the consequences of feeling horrible after eating dairy products (it's part of life to live with the consequence of your choices). I don't preach to my friends about being vegetarian or vegan, however spoil them with alternate products which at an atomic level means one less animal product being eaten, but at large scale could mean hundreds of thousands less animals being farmed and their associated carbon footprint. I think flexitarian is the future!
There’s this unhealthy perception that being a Vegan means you have to be perfect, when it’s truly about significantly reducing unnecessary suffering. Before even talking about Veganism, I think people should start on the mental model why people get triggered by the information they receive, resulting to a push back. Maybe one day we won’t have to call it Vegan, it would just be showing compassion to other sentient beings that deserve to live in their own way, not to be commodified through speciesism.
It takes two steps for masses to move a step forward. Veganism is only seen as extreme now because our society have normalized ways to extensively commodify other sentient beings based on traditions that isn’t serving us in today’s context. Discussions to raise awareness of existential and social problems not exclusively to just Vegans needs to be normalized until it becomes a norm. Until then any effort is valued. I don’t have to be called a Vegan, it’s my personal take to make myself more relatable but I understand the term is needed for optics to be as an opposing side of Speciesism. Both sides shouldn’t push absolutism but we need to eradicate the stigma against Veganism. I believe majority of the push back comes from biases that aren’t managed, then corrupts the unflattering truths about animal agriculture.
Why do you think there’s a stigma against veganism? Actions cause reactions. The minority of vegans who push extreme, self-righteous views cause a reaction that makes people become anti-vegan. We’re talking about the polarized ends, the 1% vs 1%. In reality the 98% of people in the middle are just minding their own business, no stigma whatsoever. But in one statement, you’ve pit veganism against every non-vegan. All vegans vs “speciesists”. 5% (very generous figure) vs 95% of the world. Why do you think veganism will be normalized?
@@ThoughtworthyCo Studies show the only people who are viewed nearly as negatively as vegans, are drug addicts. That reaction isn't born solely from a minority of vocal vegans.
10+ year vegan here, to summarize your points: 1) You think veganism can be healthy but not worth the effort 2) You think veganism can be environmentally positive but not worth the effort 3) You think veganism can be perfectionist and prefer harm reduction 4) You think veganism can be extreme on the ethical spectrum and draw the line elsewhere Fair enough but If we're being honest your actual reasons sound more like: culture, convenience, taste. Which is true for most people in the world. If you lived on a vegan planet though the likelihood of you making the effort to kill cows for sandwiches is very low. Which is true for most people in the world. So you are a product of your culture...like most people in the world. Every person cannot champion every cause but by aggregation we can all make our culture and world a better place. So we should support each others efforts to do better for our culture and our world. The reason vegans make the effort is because they are soberly connected to the hellish suffering of animals on earth. The surprise is how fun, easy, fulfilling and sensical veganism feels when you try it.
RE: “Not worth the effort” We think it’s worth the effort if you desire to be vegan. What we’re saying is it’s not necessary. It’s not that we think veganism is extreme. We totally understand vegans who make veganism a PERSONAL lifestyle choice. What’s extreme is thinking that veganism is absolutely, always, without a doubt, “better” like you said. At the end of the day, we have not heard any convincing arguments on why consuming animals for food is wrong, therefore we don’t think veganism is necessary. If you disagree, we’re open to hearing why.
@@ThoughtworthyCo If I were butchering a dog in the street would you stop me? Is there a difference between butchering an apple and a rabbit? Is there a reason pets and grandma don't go to the slaughterhouse after death?
The first two are fairly obvious so I assume they're rhetorical questions to make a point. But, what's the point? The third is worded a little weirdly. Slaughterhouse is a place where animals are slaughtered for their meat to supply food. First, you can't slaughter what's already dead. Second, we don't eat pets or grandma. But okay, I get what you're trying to say. We have different relationships with individuals of a species, as well as with the species as a whole. It's the same reason why you don't mourn or hold a funeral for a mosquito.
I was hoping for more engagement on your part considering you mentioned: "We have not heard any convincing arguments on why consuming animals for food is wrong" "If you disagree, we’re open to hearing why" Do you owe anyone engagement? No Should your mind be so open your brain falls out? No Does it seem like you are really open minded? When you answer no question directly and focus on semantics, No If I were butchering a dog in the street would you stop me? Yes you would. Does getting pleasure from it make a difference? No Does paying someone to do it for me make a difference? No Does putting it behind a wall make a difference? No Is there a difference between butchering an apple and a rabbit? Yes there is a massive difference. One makes a kid normal, the other makes a kid a psychopath. One runs away from the knife and screams and kicks and thrashes for it's life, the other has no subjective experience. Is there a reason pets and grandma don't go to the slaughterhouse after death? Yes, we respect their life and bodily autonomy We don't disrespect pets and grandma by calling them "it". We don't carve their bodies into little pieces and eat them and wear their skin. You apply these ethical standards to humans and some animals. Vegans extend these ethical principles to more animals. That's it. Very direct. Very straightforward. Very simple. The same reason you don't kill dogs is why vegans don't kill cows. The same reason you don't eat dog meat is why vegans don't eat cow meat. The same reason you don't wear dog skin is why vegans don't wear cow skin. A useful trick for seeing the cultural programming is always replacing "vegan" with "dog-vegan" and "meat" with "dog-meat". "What’s extreme is thinking that dog-veganism is...always...“better”" Yes dog-veganism is always "better". Yes veganism is always "better". Do survival situations exist? yes Are we in a survival situation? no Do vegans believe in human-animal equality? no Do vegans value animal life more than a sandwich flavor? yes
*“Does it seem like you are really open minded? When you answer no question directly and focus on semantics, No”* Sounds like you’re getting a little personal. What am I doing if not engaging you? It’s not just semantics. Words have meaning, and I respect the definitions given to words. But, you’re using words that play on emotions. For example, you can’t butcher an apple, but you’re using the word “butcher” to make it seem like there’s a legitimate, evil comparison there, when there isn’t. If you were butchering a dog in the street for no reason, of course I would stop you. If a kid is butchering a rabbit for no apparent reason, of course an adult would be asking questions. Like I said, fairly obvious answers that should not need explicit answering. But the question still stands, what is the relevance to our discussion on whether *it’s wrong to consume animals*? Food isn’t just pleasure. Food isn’t “for no reason”. Exactly why I asked, what was your point? *“Vegans extend these ethical principles to more animals.”* Yes, I believe we should all live by our principles, and of course that includes you. But that doesn’t mean your principles are better than someone else’s just because they’re different. Very simple, very straightforward. “Yes dog-veganism is always "better". Yes veganism is always "better”.” I disagree. I would not be so full of myself to say that a culture that consumes dog meat is worse than my culture, just because they’re different. To be morally consistent, them butchering and eating dogs is the same as us butchering and eating chickens. Again, it’s about the relationship and connection we(and they) have with the species. Different cultures have different relationship dynamics. Just because it makes me uncomfortable doesn’t mean they’re wrong. “Do vegans believe in human-animal equality? no” Since you agree that humans and animals are not equal, then where do you draw the line? You say you extend ethical principles to MORE(not all) animals, at what point does it stop?
I recommend the documentary Sacred Cow (Diana Rodgers, 2021). There are so many myths about cattle and its environmental impact. This documentary dispels many of them.
I’m not going to tell anyone what to do, but I do have a problem with the official denial of the meat industry. If people can watch Earthlings and still want to eat meat then what else can I say.
Same! I tried veganism but it was beyond me financially , especially since i can't eat beans and many of those vegan alternatives due to stomach issues. When i was vegetarian, for 15 years, i had constant bloating and stomach issues due to beans. I stopped eating beans during the pandemic and replaced it with fish. Then slowly added in chicken due to cost. I feel happy, entergetic witj no digestive issues
When talking about Animal Agriculture I would say factory farming is the biggest problem but grass fed animals in fields go through a cycle where methane goes into the atmosphere coverts into C02 and goes through photo synthesis which then goes back into the ground to fertilised the Plants and grass as a full circle. Also there's alot more industries making bigger impact on the earth than animals in the fields.
I am vegan but I completely agree with your line of thought. polarization is such a dangerous trend in the way we argue about things. One thing that made me think was that the more humane you treat an animal the more resources it will use. but blaming individuals for that instead of big corp is just another technique to defend capitalism imo.
The "both sides present faulty evidence" is an incredibly bad faith way to present this discussion. It will always benefit the status quo which in this case is the continued consumption of animal products. The evidence for and against veganism isn't evenly weighted. No scientifically serious person disagrees that animal products are bad for the planet, or that plant based diets when well planned are perfectly healthful. The moral argument for veganism is self evident. It's ridiculous to hand wave away by citing personal choice. Personal choice is never a justification if that choice harms others.
@dru Hi could you start a new comment thread with a compilation of all your points, so it's easier for me to keep track of who I've yet to respond to? Thanks.
Born in a family who ate meat atkeast twice a week, I was told that even as a toddler somehow my body would reject meat, even when my mother tried to camaflouge it in potatoes as such, growing up I started to completely detest any sort of meat because I couldn't stomach it. I did eat fish and eggs, because I seemed to feel alright consuming them, although it was once in a week or two. As an adult I was in prime health till I moved to Australia and being coerced by my then partner to start eating meat. I caved in. Ate meat. Seemed also viable option since to buy veggies we have to sell an arm and a leg here. It was hard atfirst for me to eat meat but slowly little by little I journeyed on thinking it was the more healthy route to bulk up and get strong. I was wrong. In the decade I have eaten meat I have becomes seriously depressed, has had several health concerns, packed on the weight contrary to the perfect physiuque I had, lost lot of hair, skin lost its glow, and I am just in my 30s. These are just few of the issues. I was always lethargic. Muscle aches etc. Anyway, it's been just under a year I am slowly goingback to being a vegetarian and I feel ane look younger than the past decade already. Still along way to go. I had lost my zest and will to live but now I feel energetic and is having an active life compared to the past several years on meat. My take from personal experience - eating meat nearly destroyed me completely, both mentally and physically. Pay me a million bucks and now I wont touch meat again. My cholestrol was high and now its in perfect range and no more pre-dianetic either. The stress and fear hormones of the last few minutes of the life of the animals before it gets slaughtered definitely deposits in the consumer of that meat. I am not even going to touch the topic of how cancerous meat consumption is because we have snowflakes on internet that will get offended. This is my personal view from my experience so I won't shy from speaking this truth, if it helps someone, why not. So I am glad I am back on track and now started to look like a 21 yr old even in my late 30s, contrary to last year - overweight, depressed, low self esteem, and bunch of health issues. Take from this comment what you will.
What is this "problem" you're referring to exactly, in the statement "I know it's a problem"? I'm not sure what problem veganism is a solution to in your opinion.
@@ThoughtworthyCounnecessary death of animals, climate crisis, global food uncertainty. Large-scale adoption of veganism literally solves or greatly reduces all of these issues.
You're implying veganism is THE one and only solution to this problem. You can replace your statement with "large-scale reduction of animal products literally solves or greatly reduces all of these issues", and it'll still be true. Your attitude towards this issue is precisely the problem I spoke about by the end of the video. It's unproductive and irrational. The only legitimate argument that came from your comment is the ethical issue around it, and sure we can talk about that. Putting aside the issue of waste that I already spoke about, I don't see animals being food for other animals as something unnecessary, therefore not amounting to a problem. Just curious, if you had a way to turn a lion vegan, would you do it? That would reduce what you call "unnecessary" animal suffering too.
The problem with adopting an ideology is that it can easily lead to cart-before-the-horse thinking, whereby everything is made to fit within a limited framework.
If u think it’s wrong to kill humans for a taste preference than why is it not wrong to do same to animals l. Name the relevant moral difference that makes it ok
@@veganix6757 My physiology demands animal products in order to thrive, therefore I choose what I deem the most appropriate sources. They are those outlined within the Holy Bible, which fully explains the unfortunate, human condition. Without a supernatural arbiter, morals & ethics don't exist, as evolution generates only instinct (however complex). Atheists may do/eat whatever is tolerated by their societies, without facing "karma" or fearing eternal consequences (those will come!). God says "Beef burger good".. "human steak bad".🙏👍
(Context for anyone else reading, this is a continuation from another thread. To summarize: *Vaelin* : “Name the trait” is the best argument against consumption of animals. What’s the difference between humans and animals, such that exploiting animals is okay but exploiting humans isn’t. Name the trait. *TW* : Name the trait is a flawed line of argument. What’s the difference between mosquitoes and humans, such that it’s okay to exterminate mosquitoes just because they may carry infectious diseases, but not okay to do the same to humans? Or the difference between dogs and humans, such that it's okay to own dogs as pets. “Name the trait.” We arrive at Vaelin’s answer: Consciousness) Hi Vaelin. Is your answer specifically referring to mosquitoes? I believe most people, vegan or not, will agree that dogs have consciousness. In fact, there are also arguments of insects having consciousness. Regardless, even if your answer is consciousness, does it mean you think it’s okay to exterminate people who may be carrying infectious diseases, as long as they are "unconscious"? e.g. people who are in a coma. I hope by using your own “name the trait” argument against your line of thinking, it can help you to see its contradictions and inconsistencies.
@@ThoughtworthyCo OK, so a person who is in a coma can notice a bit of what is around him i thougt (idk correct me if im false)? Anyway: there ist still a probability that the person will gain consciousness again and the people who know and love this person suffer because of the death. OK and so we dont talk about different things: If i have to choose to kill the person who has eg a virus or let sth like COVID happen, i think then its totally reasonable to kill the person so hundreds of thousands of other people have to die. ( Im an utilitarian). And i think consciousness isnt specific for mosquitoes, but ist a good trait to messure, if you will, the moral worth of somebody (sounds a bit weird, but i dont know how to say it in a different way) Edit: corrected typo
Completely agree with this video - and also with the idea that this is a corporate issue rather than an individual one. Not unlike other environmental issues, the individual gets the blame and the shame when it should be corporations.
Respectfully, I disagree. The individual is significant in driving the demand for alternative, plant-based foods. This is why plant-based milk is now everywhere, which is not due to corporations flooding the market with oat milk out of guilt or service to the community, but because they are responding to market demand where the profit lies.
The corporations are there because there are individuals willing to buy therr products. The responsibility is on the consumer as well as on the corporation.
First of all: Happy to see, that you bring up this topic! 💚 I agree on the first point (health) and also the second is alright (however, eating vegan is one of the most impactful things you can do for the environment), but on the third (animal ethics) you are looking for excuses. Been there, done that, 7 years ago. I have a masters in ethics from the university of vienna and can tell you, there simply are no good ethical counterarguments against veganism. It's like looking for reasons why it's ok to torture your dog for fun. It just isn't. I'm not saying you have to be a perfect 100% vegan, but in everyday life just go for the vegan options. I personally do that and only eat animal food when it is a present or really hard to find something vegan. You can do it. Just be honest to yourself and take it one step at a time 💪🏽 All the best to both of you 💚
Hey. Thanks for sharing your accreditation, interesting tidbit of information. Anyway, I have no reason to argue against the ethics of veganism. If anyone chooses to go vegan because they think it's the moral thing to do, that's wonderful, I totally agree with their decision. I just don't think it's that black and white; I personally consume animal products because I don't think it's immoral. (Not sure the dog torturing thing is relevant in any way.) Cheers!
Just watched videos from scientists or people who have real special interests on nutrition. Plus videos from the channel LivingWellAfterSchizophrenia. It was an eye opener 👀
I can not be made to feel guilty as they try to make this an individual problem when it's a corporation issue. Only 2 companies contributed to the pollution in America last year but they act like us switching off the lights and eating less meet will have a massive impact on the environment
The corporations are there because there are individuals willing to buy therr products. The responsibility is on the consumer as well as on the corporation.
I think the other context is that in the past (>250 years ago) farmed animals were used like oxen, to pull carts, plough paddy fields etc. etc. That's is why, beef used to be very expensive, because the animals had great economic value for their labour. The Latin word "capita" means a head of cattle, and is the base word for "capitalism". But nowadays, since we have tractors and locomotives, so it is no longer economical to use oxen to do work. So in industrialised countries, the animals have no work to do so it becomes economical to kill them. And since there is a cultural notion that eating meat is festive or high class, as a country becomes industrialised, the consumption of farmed meat increases. Regarding health, industrial animal farms use hormones, non-therapeutic antibiotics and so many other drugs to make the animals grow quicker. They even feed cows meat products! Aside from the direct implications on our health, it also breeds superbugs that are resistant to antibiotics.
Pretty much. Most of our issues in our society is because of the past and because we are SO afraid of letting go and accepting change. Like alcohol, one of the worst drugs that exist, and its legal pretty much everywhere in the world. It would never have been approved if someone wanted to sell it in this day and age.
Brazilian beef farms ‘used workers kept in conditions similar to slavery’ Workers on farms supplying world’s biggest meat firms allegedly paid £8 a day and housed in shacks with no toilets or running water
your thoughts about few people doing perfect vs. many people doing better is one of my core arguments when discussing things like veganism, travel or consumption. to me, it is important to stay focused, open-minded but also forgiving and realistic. thank you!
I was vegan for 6 years, and I went back to being a vegetarian, very happily so. I'll have a vegan day every now and again if I feel like it, but never going back to vegan unless there is a catastrophe and I can only eat roots 😊 Do not feel disheartened by the negative comments, do NOT feel guilty if you eat meat. Guilt is a religious concept, a made up one just to make people feel bad about themselves, we do not need that in our lives. Also, we did not create nature the way it is, so if one day I'll need to eat meat again I will, and I'll be grateful to the animal for its sacrifice. One thing I'll never do though will be eating synthetic meat for the sake of the planet. I really don't care. Or flour made out of insects as they're pushing us to do in Europe. I'm italian mind you, and that to me is simply something unconceivable. Hugs! ❤
I didn't finish watching, but I need to share this thought: Every change is difficult. And when people ask me if it's not difficult to be vegan, because, you know, you have less choice and so on. I'm like: Yes, that's true, I have less choice! And no: I have less choice - that's why it's easier!
100%. I ate so much unhealthy pastry and candy when I wasn't vegan. Now, there is very little options and I am so used to not eat unhealthy food that it just tastes absolutely disgusting and I can feel my body suffering from it.
@@Softlol I'm not vegan anymore because it's unhealthy. You will have a lack of choline, carnosine, beta-alanine (nope, beta-alanine is not found in asparagus, peas and mushrooms), carnitine, creatine, anserine, collagene, hydroxyproline, ... I found out through an Austrian nutrionist. Also: I think all paediatric societys do NOT recommend a vegan diet for children. Wish you all the best with your diet choice. Peace from Berlin, Germany!
@ I think it’s false to say it’s unhealthy. It might be in your case. But there are countless of studies saying that it is healthy. I have been vegan for 10 years now. The first 8 years I went to the doctors once a year to check if my body was good. Every single time they said I’m in perfect condition so I no longer bother going there for tests when its all good. The only supplement I take is B12, everything else I get from food and drinks!
Videos like this should be filmed at the slaughterhouse so we can see the reality of what is being defended here. So we can hear the screams of the animals and witness the dehumanisation of the people who have to kill them. Otherwise these videos are just propaganda
@@tessaruby2273 Only if vegan videos are filmed with close ups of animals/pest being shot on a crop or slowly dying after being exposed to pesticides.
Yes I agree that we should encourage people to reduce their animal consumption by 50%, but also their racism by 50%, and misogyny by 50% and let’s not forget rape etc … Rights movements don’t work in percentages. For good reason. I’ve been veggie/vegan for 15 years and it so simple and easy. It may be more difficult whilst travelling, but in the comfort of your home and with access to supermarkets it’s a breeze. And every meal is still a celebration, without a dead animal on the table. I could imagine in China it is even easier with the abundance of other fruits and vegetables. Going vegan is probably the easiest and biggest impact one can have on the environment, plus if one chooses one can also turn the aircon down a degree or two on top of that 😉
So apply that to other rights movement. Should well tell racists only to be racist to certain races? Should we tell child abusers to only abuse on Monday’s?
First of all, unimportantly, we’re not from China in case that’s what you’re thinking 😅 So I supposed we should not encourage people to reduce their animal consumption? Just so we’re on the same page, can we establish that you’re not arguing for the environmental and health aspects, but merely the moral position of consuming animal products?
Apologies, I thought you mentioned you were in China. Of course we should encourage people to reduce, but to argue that vegans shouldn‘t encourage total abolition is naive. I came to vegetarianism through animal rights at first. Veganism through seeing the broader animal rights aspect as well as health. And I remain vegan through all of this and the environmental aspect. We’re destroying the planet.
I'm not arguing that vegans shouldn't encourage total abolition. I think we made it clear in the video that we have nothing against veganism in principle. I genuinely encourage you to fight for what you personally believe is right. BUT, that doesn't necessarily mean what you're fighting for is going to be objectively right, and that's a very important distinction. So just to confirm, do you think that you're objectively right in your judgment, and that if I think it's okay to consume animal products, that means I'm objectively wrong?
Do I think the general way animals are raised for consumption whereby profits are put ahead of animal welfare is right? I don’t. Do I live somewhere where I have neither the financial means or access to a variety of other foods. I don’t. Do I disagree with the World Health Organisation that red meat and processed meat are or likely to be carcinogenic. I don’t. Do I need to eat animal flesh in order to survive? I don’t. Is a dead animal a happy animal. No. Am I morally right for not consuming meat. Yes.
I found this video interesting, but I felt that the overall message was “you can do a bit of everything, but reduce it” which in my opinion is an ineffective point to put across. I will be focusing on the ethics part of the video with my statements bellow. I agree with your statement that personal philosophies are indeed derived from our own environment and experiences, there is also a collective philosophy - if we all saw a dog slaughter house the majority would be appalled ( vegans and non vegans) because we know that harming a pet animal is morally wrong. But where do we draw the line and why have we decided that it’s “ok” to harm certain animals but not others? We know and condemn hurting humans also. I saw you also mentioned hunting across the comments - I’m unsure if you referred to it as a “natural” occurrence the same as animals hunting each other - but more often than not hunting is seen as a “sport” or “leisure” in todays world. However, in a live or die situation humans are programmed to survive - if you are in a position where you absolutely have no choice but to eat meat to survive that is just laws of nature, lucky most of us who can make the choice don’t live in that scenario. I honestly believe that although someone can love animals while eating them, that is an hypocritical statement that doesn’t align with that persons acts. If you choose / select what animals are worthy of said love, that in my opinion is conditional love and not an overall love for animals. I hope that made sense. Having said that I respect peoples choices and I respect your choices, point isn’t to preach but to gain further understanding of the mindset put through in this video, and hopefully, politely challenge it :)
Hey, thank you for engaging in this conversation in a respectful manner! 🙌 *if we all saw a dog slaughter house the majority would be appalled ( vegans and non vegans) because we know that harming a pet animal is morally wrong.* I agree the response to seeing that scene would be morally inconsistent, because humans are irrational like that. The way I think about it is if I was transported to an alternate universe where cows and chickens are domestic pets, and instead dogs and cats are farmed for food, would I say for certain that they're "wrong"? Personally, I don't think I would, but either way that would be just my personal opinion and not a fact. But I'm also curious, would you agree it's natural for us to, through the course of history, form different relationships with different animals? So we assign different weight and importance to certain animals, just like how we do the same with the people in our lives. For example, I may sacrifice a stranger's life to save my family's life without considering right or wrong. It's selective and conditional, but that doesn't mean I don't love human beings, no? What would you do in this situation? Do you think it's wrong?
@@ThoughtworthyCo Thank you for opening a discussion in a safe, non judgmental way. I believe in the alternative scenarios mentioned above, people would feel appalled by the same only to different animals. Mostly I feel it’s due to what has become socially accepted and what we as people perceive it’s “ok” possibly due to the point you brought regarding the different relationships we have had with animals. However in a dire situation where one of your loved ones (human or animal) is in a life or death situation, it is normal to sacrifice the bond you have the least attachment with. Doesn’t make it morally right but instead, it was a survival necessity to protect one’s lives. I would still agree that you love humans but I would understand that you made a choice that has the best outcome for yourself- I would not consider it morally right, only that you did what you absolutely felt needed to be done. On the other hand we don’t live in this scenario when it comes to eating other animals, and focusing on the ethical part of the discussion, there is no life or death choice to make - I believe that instead making a choice which causes harm to another sentient being purely because we can, is not showing love for animals. People have asked me before “if you were in a deserted island with absolutely nothing to eat hut a cow would you eat it” and my reply always is “I am vegan, not an idiot” (excuse my language!). I don’t think I’m less vegan because I make a decision that will save my life as that is my human instinct - so I believe I’d be morally right? Absolutely not. Thank you for your reply back, it did make me consider things I otherwise wouldn’t
@DemonessDesignsCo A discussion is only as safe and non-judgmental as the participants allow, so thank you for being a great partner in this conversation! Not every corner of this comments section can be considered safe at the moment 😅 *making a choice which causes harm to another sentient being purely because we can* Another commenter made a great point. Not donating all of your disposable income to save innocent starving children in poor countries is also a choice. It’s a choice you CAN make (just because) but it’s also one that will ultimately lead to more suffering of another sentient being. Which is why I personally, respectfully, think this line of argument may be going down a slippery slope. *Mostly I feel it’s due to what has become socially accepted* I totally agree. Do you think that can also be applied to why humans eating animals started to *feel* wrong in the first place. The reasons are emotional, but can it be inherently “wrong” though? I believe a common argument is to liken eating meat to slavery: “Slavery used to be socially and culturally acceptable too, do you mean you think slavery is okay?” My personal answer would obviously be no, it’s not okay. Whether it’s slavery 200 or 2000 years ago, we would still look back and say that's wrong. But would you say the people who ate meat 200, 2000 or however many years ago, have always been morally wrong? Is there an exact point in time where it became wrong? Is it possible we’ve created such a distance between ourselves and the cruelty of the natural world, that we may have a distorted view on life and death? Death fuels life. Is it not because we're irrational and emotional that we feel bad for a gazelle being eaten by a lion? With what we’ve discussed, would you agree morality is subjective? And do you think right and wrong is always binary? E.g. You’ve made your choice to be vegan as you think it’s morally right; I can agree you made a morally right and respectable decision. I, on the other hand, made a choice to eat meat because I don’t think it’s morally wrong. Some vegans will disagree, they may think something has to be either right or wrong, black or white, and nothing in between. Arguments ensue, highlighting the polarization problem mentioned in the video. 2nd e.g. “I don’t think I’m less vegan because I make a decision that will save my life as that is my human instinct - so I believe I’d be morally right? Absolutely not.” But do you think you’d be morally wrong for eating the cow on the deserted island? Once again, thanks for engaging in this conversation!
I respect every dietary choice. What I consider naive is the idea that agriculture is innocent. It's not, it harms our environment, causes deforestation, needs chemicals, is often bases on slavery conditions. My ethical and health choice? I only eat what nature provides spontaneously, zero-km food with no chemicals, from small small small businesses. Nothing else, ever. I spend a good amount of time reading science-based info. And I'm very happy with the results.
@@ThoughtworthyCo To be honest, I'm not rich at all. I cut a lot of useless costs (fast-fashions, apps and digital services that have a monthly cost, etc.), expensive holidays (I prefer travelling in a sporty way), and believe me that that was more than enough to have the money to buy fresh food: in Italy, you can do it: we don't have huge salaries but also life is not absurdly expensive, especially healthy food. It's not cheap, but it's affordable if you're good at redirecting your life choices and priorities.
Completely understand; it's certainly doable in many parts of the world. Although it's probably also important to give a balanced take, as I'm sure there are many people, especially in certain parts of the world, who are not naive but simply lack the means or opportunities to make the "better" choices. That said, being in a position to take action is one thing, actually taking action is another. That's why I mean it when I say good on you for following through and sticking to your principles!
@@ThoughtworthyCo yes, of course one of the great issues is the lack of means to eat properly. And I cannot see a solution for that, other than knowledge to better our choices within our means.
agriculture is a hell its made to make people dependent on markets all forest and environment been altered to ppl only be able to move and live on urban environments since all forests were once food jungles .... they altered things so much and yes agriculture and cattle creation are the biggest evil on this planet I am vegan very muscular I do lift 2 cement sacks 50 kg each I been on construction sights working with the tuffest guys and they always asked me for advice when they discovered I wasnt on a animal based diet ... yeah we should be more empaths , veganism have TONS of health benefits , this video is a joke u have a higher chance of not having a heart attack , cancer , many things ... Theres the unspoke mental benefits cause your mood IMPROVES A LOT , since happinnes is generated on the gut you cant be putting rotten stuff there everytime that will never digest cause humans are no lions u dont properly process meat thats why it get sstuck on u a long time before u p o o P it , and yeah .... this places are full satanists too thats why they abuse the animals on the factories so much
It was interesting reading through the resonable comments. I am not vegan nor vegetarian. I personally don't think it's a sustainable lifestyle nor is it good for the planet unless you're growing the majority of your food, sourcing it locally, or foraging it. Commercially grown produce in the States is as bad if not worse than CAFOs. I also wonder why some vegans are ok with eating bugs and plants when those are also alive.
Vegans don't eat bugs for starters. I care about plant lives to the extent that it's important to protect the environment (animals live there)however the trait of highest merit when you are considering moral worth is sentience. Animal's posess this, plants do not. Sentience means you are capable of subjective experience, and can feel pain and pleasure. You are right that plant agriculture is not perfect however veganism is the most practicable tool we have for harm reduction. Since most of us live in cities a lifestyle dependent on foraging isnt viable. It simply isn't logically possible that animal agriculture is less harmful than plant agriculture. Consider that animals also require crops to grow to slaughter weight or be sustained to produce milk or eggs and then killed when they no longer excrete these goods for us efficiently. For a diet which includes animal products you are adding up all the harm that happens when we grow crops for them (80% of plant agriculture) + keeping non human animals in poor conditions then killing them versus just eating plants directly for human consumption. Ballpark 80 billion land animals are killed for human consumption each year. Compare that to 8 billion humans and it's no contest which diet causes less harm. If we can grant animals non commodity status we can then work towards better farming methods to reduce the damage we cause when we farm far crops. The ideology of veganism holds that non human animals are intrinsically valuable so to harm them unnecessarily, for instance for taste pleasure, is morally unacceptable. Hope that makes sense.
@@MrTheoptimiser I recommend looking into the Secret Life of Plants. It's a very interesting book that delves into the possibility of the sentience of plants. They can potentially feel pain and even fear. I agree that animals raised in confinement require crops to be grown for feed. I don't think industrial agricultural should be relied on to feed us. Their practices are inhumane and destructive to the earth. We need animals to help rebuild the soil so they should be integrated on farms. Unfortunately, I don't believe humans can survive, let alone thrive on plants alone. My best case scenario is giving animals the best life possible before taking their life with the utmost respect and gratitude.
@@lvs6775 As mentioned if you want to do the most to mitigate the damage you do to the planet the best course of action is to adopt a plant based diet because it requires magnitudes less resources (including plants) than a diet which includes animal products. On a planet with 8 billion people on it one way or another industrial agriculture is essential to feed everyone. It would be interesting to think that plants are more complicated than we give them credit for, but the truth is while they do respond to stimuli, it is an algorithmic response analogous to an ai. They are not thinking feeling beings like animals. The vital moral difference between plants and animals is that one is sentient and the other is not. I propose a trade. I will look into the Secret Life of Plants if you google "the oxford land use study". What that study demonstrates is that even if we are concerned with the feelings of plants it is better to have a plant based food system because livestock use much more plant agriculture than we do. Thanks for the civil discussion, we both have more to learn.
I feel that this is true to many topics, not only veganism though. I also feel that people are obsessed with being right, and can't accept that other people might have different views/opinions, and that's ok. It's rare to be able to have deep conversation with someone nowadays, unbiased, without having to prove who are right, and just throwing and exchanging ideas and views. Don't let the haters get to you guys.
This video was spot on. I was vegan / vegetarian for 15+ years but my bloodwork clearly showed my lack of iron, protein, & zinc (& I was a good veg. by eating soy and beans for protein & taking tons of vitamins). I believe in ahimsa but at the end I almost killed both myself & my partner. People need to respect what their bodies are telling them & not being pressured when others shove it down their throats that they should eat a certain way. Thank you so much!
@dru The science is out... iron in animals is WAAAYYY more bioavailable in animals than the iron found in plants. B12 is only found in animal products, another nutrient most vegans/vegetarians are lacking. As for zinc, you won't inhibit absorption from animal products but things like beans that have zinc also have phytates which are plant antinutrients that WILL inhibit the absorption of zinc. Animal protein = much more dense compared to plant protein. Most people can only get vegan right if they supplement HEAVILY and make sure they are counting their nutrients, it's not something you can just wing and get right.
Same here. I'm mostly vegetarian now but if I need it I'll have fish once or twice a month. My health is the most important thing, sorry vegans and fish. I do not feel guilty one bit, that's life and my tolerance level for rude, aggressive vegans who hate mankind is below zero.
What needs to happen is to make resources accessible to thrive on a whole-food plant based diet. If there’s a will, there’s a way. But of course, there will be exceptions like health conditions. If I’ve identified my deficient nutrients then I’m able to solve it in my diet. It ain’t a walk in the park but it can be done.
We went plant based 15 years ago. It took some adjustment to change our routine, but it is so much easier and simple now! And cheaper!! We are both happier and healthier than we were before. We get blood work done once per year and make any changes needed. Since we added B12 and D3, we've been perfect on our numbers. Mainstream information on diet is flawed in our opinion. The best choice is to take your health into your hands and listen to your inner voice. It's also true that you develop more clarity and spiritual well-being, not eating animal products. We agree that everyone is different and has different ways of seeing things, different minds and bodies, and we honor personal choice. While we honor your choice, you don't sound happy about your choice, you sound like you are trying to justify it.
Thanks for sharing, and it's wonderful you managed to find out what works for you! 🙌 Actually, we've given it a lot of thought (even more so while making this video) and we're perfectly happy and at peace with our decision to continue consuming animal products :)
@@ThoughtworthyCo If you're happy and at peace about it, its only because you choose to remain ignorant about how the animal products get to your plate. Those doing your dirty work - slaughterhouse workers - suffer PTSD, nightmares, and drug and alcohol addiction. That's the emotional and spiritual reality of killing innocent animals who die terrified.
@@tessaruby2273 Hi can I invite you to start a new comment thread (if you have any arguments) so I can better keep track of all the ongoing conversations? Thanks.
Would you mind googling "oxford land use study"? Vegans are pro farmer, but prefer plant farming, and hope those in animal farming will transition. There is a world of difference between crop agriculture and animal agriculture environmentally. Emissions, land use, and water usage would be much lower if we had a plant based food system. Switching to a plant-based food system could be a tool to help solve climate change. Thank you for your attention.
@@MrTheoptimiser That sounds wonderful in theory,but what would happen to all of the currently mesprodust animals? Would they live in peace until natural death? Where would all of these animals live? Or would they brutally be killed because there is no use of them anymore(thats how humanity works if you can't use it throw it away) Probably some would be spared because of milk eggs and eccetera,but if we don't consume that,what would those animals purpose be,again for our humanity. Even people,we have to give something to have the right to live,you want food,a roof under your head you have to work. Then the question, where do you work? For example i am a waitress,i make coffee for living,and i use dairy milk,i personally don't drink dairy milk and i would love to make coffee with non dairy milk,but my customers would rather go somewhere else where there is dairy milk,and then i would lose my job,if i lose my job i cant provide for my family. And as for the environment there are many ways we can help,vegan or not,even some vegans do more damage to the planet than some non vegans. I'm a pescatarian so is my husband and my child. I was a vegetarian and a vegan,encopureting fish into my diet helped my metabolism,but that does not mean it would work for someone else.
@@simplytara97 Hi, thank you for responding with interesting queries. I've thought about veganism, and the issues that surround it in depth so I believe I have solid refutations to the objections you brought up. Please note that this is all in the name of education, not judgment. I was a part of the problem the majority of my life, so to make amends I try to take opportunities to educate. I hope you can see where I am coming from. To address your first objection: The absolute bedrock of the vegan philosophy is that non-human animals have value in and of themselves, and that, because this is the case humans should disavow themselves of the attitude that non human animals should have commodity status. When we think in the human context this is intuitive. Is perceiving humans as having commodity status as happened in the human slave trade in the united states not inherently wrong? Does perceiving human beings as disposable as happened in the Jewish holocaust not morally abhorrent? Veganism is about extending the same moral consideration we already feel about humans to animals. It is the logical extension of the care and concern we already have for each other, because we can see that non human animals, experience pain, joy, and suffer much as we do. What would happen to all the animals in a vegan world? Humanity artificially breeds into existence billions of animals every year for the purpose of consumption. If demand for their flesh and secretions ceased this would no longer be the case, thus there would be far fewer of the animals humans now view as food. This would free up space for wildlife to again prosper. To be honest I don't know exactly what would happen to the remainder of those animals, but my guess is some would still live in sanctuaries. To give a quick metaphor; I am taking a test I know 98% of the answers to. Even though I don't know all the answers I'm still taking that test. It's productive to still take the test because I will be given a passing grade. I understand your concern about working in a non vegan world. Everyone has to put food on the table right? In my view working at a place that serves non vegan food is excusable behavior for a vegan assuming you don't consume those products yourself. What that business sells is not your responsibility. I don't think it is morally necessary, but if it were me I would want to find alternate employment where I wouldn't have to face things which are incongruent with my values such as serving animal products. However, working is necessary. If it is necessary it is justified, and I don't blame you for sticking with your current job. On your point on environment. The solution is not either or. It is both and! The evidence in the study I cited shows that diet is the biggest component of an individuals contribution to climate change. We eat multiple times a day, so this makes sense right? This is what the study says: "Specifically, plant-based diets reduce food’s emissions by up to 73% depending where you live. This reduction is not just in greenhouse gas emissions, but also acidifying and eutrophying emissions which degrade terrestrial and aquatic ecosystems. Freshwater withdrawals also fall by a quarter. Perhaps most staggeringly, we would require ~3.1 billion hectares (76%) less farmland. 'This would take pressure off the world’s tropical forests and release land back to nature,' says Joseph Poore." Of course I agree that we should tread lightly in all ways that we can, but it does appear that the affect our diets have on the environment is enormous. The most pragmatic way to eat in this regard is plant based. Interesting that fish keep being brought up in the comments of this video. You've probably heard that fish contain high levels of mercury, to the extent that women are advised not to eat them at all during pregnancy. There are safer ways to acquire omega-3. I take a multivitamin, but off the top of my head, you can also find it in seaweed. This is available in capsule form, which i think is pretty convenient. For the reason of moral caution I would also advice you not to eat them. Contrary to popular belief fish do in fact feel pain, and have demonstrated impressive comprehension. Fish have been seen to use tools, work in teams to hunt, and exhibit pain avoidance. Since you have already demonstrated commendable curiosity I would like to make a video recommendation to you. "What PewDiePie Needs to Know About Fish" - Humane Hancock I hope I adequately addressed your concerns. If you want to talk about this more I am more than happy to do so, but I don't like being gaslit. Please carefully consider all the new information I presented to you before you dismiss it. My knowledge is limited, so I am sure you can bring new things to the table which i haven't considered, but I believe what I presented has merit. Thank you very much for having this conversation with me. Our world is interconnected so we must interact with each other with as much charitability and grace as possible so we can come up with the best solutions. Anyway, best of luck, I really hope you will consider veganism as the important step that it is.
@@MrTheoptimiser I am grateful for every person who is willing and trying to make a change! I don't agree that studies and practice can be related studies frequently change,but i do believe we have to try every practice to learn from it. As i said i did the vegetarian the vegan and the pescetarian diet,i followed every diet responsibly,and the results for me on every diet were differen,i canot speek for other peope, than for my self, i won't garantie a curtain diet is an "fits everbody diet" because that wasn't the case for me it wasn't the case for manny people,i try and treat every life with gratitude and respect,and i do see all life equal,(except my daughter she for me is above everything and everyone🤫) If my faith is to die by a mountain lion attack or a sting from a jelly fish that that will be my fate,i love every life,and think the planet is precious i wish for a better planet and am open to it,but unfortunately neither you or me can make that change we can tray. The perfect solution as i said is to take a few steps back,no more travel less car usage, no more fashion,live the city life behind and go back to the country side. But is that the life that everybody wants? I love food sharing i love traveling a love learning from people history and culture,there are many solutions but it wont fit every lifestyle. Thank you for you time i hope i didn't offend you that wasn't my attention truly
@At Tara's place you said some interesting things I'm interested in talking about when I have time but unfortunately right now i have to go to work. For now did you watch that video I suggested by any chance? And don't worry you didn't offend me, sorry if I gave you that impression!
No front. You made a video about it. I wanna answer. I don't think it's okay not to be vegan. I want to emphasise that I completely understand why people are not vegan and I empathise with each and every one of them/you. I have been there and ate my portion of meat and loved it. But Making a video in which ethics are boiled down to "it's everyone's personal choice" is not fair and misleading for one reason: the animals don't get to choose. We breed them into hell and kill them because of taste, tradition and convenience. *Edited a typo
*We breed them into hell and kill them because of taste, tradition and convenience.* Would you say it's okay if the animals are not bred by humans, but hunted in the wild?
@@ThoughtworthyCo Hey, thank you for replying! While I'd say that it's less cruel, the animal still doesn't get a vote. It's also not necessary I would argue. It's possible to get all the nutritions you need on a vegan diet. Let me quote the American Dietetic Association (2016): "It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases." "These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes." In addition, hunting is not always a clean kill. A shot may only injure, let's say a deer, making it limp for its life in absolute terror before receiving the second blow. Also, the animals that are being hunted aren't living in isolation. They are part of a family. Mourning is a thing in the animal kingdom. I don't think it's justified to cause such harm. Therefore I would say it's not okay to kill an animal, even if it has been killed during a hunt. What do you think?
No problem. Love a good conversation when it can be had! I like that you seem genuinely interested in what I think (so far 😅) which can’t always be said with some comments. Yes I agree animal products isn’t strictly necessary, which I believe is also mentioned In the video. I absolutely understand vegans’ view of “not causing unnecessary harm to animals”, that it’s “not justifiable to kill them for taste pleasures”, etc. *Therefore I would say it's not okay to kill an animal, even if it has been killed during a hunt. What do you think?* As you know I’m not vegan, it should not be a surprise that I think it’s “okay” to kill animals for food. Here’s what I’m contemplating and trying to understand from vegans' perspective: Are humans equals with animals? If we are, then wouldn’t “wolves eat deers” and “humans eat deers”, both be “animals eat animals”? Which can’t be inherently wrong. Or are humans above animals? That would make more sense (if slightly arrogant) if we think we’re above the ecosystem, to reject participating in a completely natural, albeit unnecessary “animals eat animals”. (I know every time one uses the word “natural” in this discussion, the point that there’s nothing natural about how we get our food on the table will get brought up. I understand. But I’m merely pondering the question if it’s *inherently* wrong to consume animals, not how we do it. I mean, I believe it can't possibly be a black and white answer, but some vegans seem to have it all figured out.) What do you think? I would love to go on but let’s keep each response brief as I’ve found it easier to keep a conversation on track. Maybe I’ll end with a couple of parting questions: If lions had just enough intellectual capacity to farm gazelles, do you think they would they do it? If they do, does that make them wrong? Just because we *can* do something, does that mean not doing it makes it morally wrong? Curious what you think.
@@ThoughtworthyCo "Are humans equals with animals? If we are, then wouldn’t “wolves eat deers” and “humans eat deers”, both be “animals eat animals”? Which can’t be inherently wrong. " Following this logic it would also be ok to eat other humans. Sure it's not inherently wrong?
@ONNO van Velzen I think you made a very good point! It took me a while to wrap my head around it. As shocking as this is going to sound, as it did shock me when I first thought it out loud: You're right, to be logically consistent, we indeed can't say that a statement as simple as "eating other humans is inherently wrong" is true 😲 What are your views on morality being objective or subjective? For context, my view is that morality is subjective. As mentioned in the video, most of us can agree on what is (feels) clearly right or wrong, but as you start adding conditions and nuance, we’ll inevitably start to have difference in opinion over where we should draw the line. For example, in a dire, famine situation, a gentleman consents to sacrificing himself so the rest of his family can eat. I would argue that from the gentleman’s perspective, “humans eating humans” become very morally right, and I would not dare say he’s wrong. Therefore, because morality is subjective, the black and white statement “to eat other humans is wrong” cannot be said with certainty. Does that sound unreasonable to you? More importantly, humans as a species, are wise enough to form societies (quickly grabbed the definition of society: the aggregate of PEOPLE living together in a more or less ordered community). To protect our *people* (the same species) and maintain order in the community, it would make sense for us to collectively agree some things we do to each other will be CONSIDERED clearly wrong: cannibalism, murder, slavery, etc. If we weren’t wise enough to come to this mutual agreement, it’s very unlikely we would be having this wonderful conversation today. Instead, the stronger one between us will be eating the other for dinner because of any disagreement, and we won’t have time to even think about morality, right and wrong. (By the way, I haven’t gotten to know your point of view on whether humans are equals with animals.) To summarize, yes, IF you believe humans are equals with animals, the statement “animals eating animals is not inherently wrong” still remains consistently true. And thankfully, humans as a species are wise enough to come to an agreement that some things, like cannibalism, along with murder and slavery, are clearly wrong to do to one another in our society. P.S. I appreciate that gotcha tone, with that “Sure it’s not inherently wrong?” 🙂
I'm currently reading an article about veganism for uni and it's really good (Our Animals, Ourselves - The Socialist Feminist Case for Animal Liberation, lux magazine) and it also talks about the problem of "annoying vegans". I would highly recommend it! :)
Being vegan is horrible for health (bread, pasta, fries etc are all vegan garbage. Being vegan is the worst thing for environment (poor quality plastic fake "leather" that pollutes at highest rate, overuse of farm land, killing natural ecosystems including wildlife with GMO crops, creating mountains of non-compostable plastic waste, using huge amounts of water and toxix chemicals for plant farms, etc). Being vegan is definitely not ethical, since you kill all animals with plastic waste and misuse of farm lands, flooded with toxins and being depleted fast. Please, don't repeat vegan ВS, there are too many idiоts who have zero clue how DAMAGING & UNETHICAL veganism actions is. Aside from being a wrong diet for humans. We are omnivores and must eat 10-15% of animal products to be healthy, since we need certain amino acids and essential fatty acids, none of us could create internally and those must me consumed. Being overweight or obese is selfish and steals resources from people in need. So, lose the fat, don't be so egocentric! Also, enough with shopping addiction and getting into debt! That's way better than being vegan 🙄 I hope these logical points help you understand evil veganism better.
I agree with what you discussed in this video and I think it comes down to the point that people should do what is best to their body, to be open minded and also a little more kind towards others. I became vegetarian about 15-16 years ago, mainly for ethical reasons that later added a mindset change towards environmental causes too. I've tried becoming a vegan as well, but for me that might take another decade to get there... never the less I firmly believe that we should be open minded towards each others food choices. I have never made anyone uncomfortable just because they ate meet in front of me and I have never been treated badly because of my food choices either. Will I ever turn vegan... maybe, but what I will keep continue is that treating people with kindness and with an open mind.
Veganism is about how animals are treated though. So the issue is always going to be whether cruelty to animals is worth every meal, clothes, entertainment. Focusing on health is a distraction. There are animals that are less sentient for example, like bivalves, that if you really believe that you must eat some animals, be specific about which ones are better to eat.
I think I would actually like to know your opinion about the ethical aspect. I understand the frustrations about polarized views but I guess the vegans that you are referring to would want to know the answer to this question: What is your ethical case for eating animal products?
Hi, thanks for the question. If I'm interpreting your question correctly, then my answer is that I don't think I have (nor do I need) a case *for* eating animal products. I consume animal products not because I think it's morally right, but because I don't think it's morally wrong. The question itself is a big and general one, so I can only give a big and general answer for now. If you wade through the comments, you'll find a couple of good conversations that elaborate further on the topic; I could direct you to them if you wish. But if you have any further questions or specific objections, let me know and we can chat about it too. Cheers!
As you mentioned, everyone's morality compass is different, but if you trim the fat and whittle it down, the philosophy can be summed in one sentence: If you think it's wrong to harm sentient animals, then you already believe in being vegan.
@dru Increasing my animal/plant ratio, from very low to moderate (& ditching beans), saw off bloating, gas, indigestion, heartburn, fatigue, dizziness, pins & needles, knee joint ache, skin sensitivity to sunlight.. a transformation which I wasn't expecting! My inefficient, gurgling, steam engine is now a smooth & silent, electric motor.
@dru Over the 4yrs+ since I began my ideal, WF omnivore diet, I've been digging into all things "vegan" & I see nothing, other than ideology, supporting the notion of human herbivores. I could, no doubt, survive on a synthetically supplemented, 100% PB diet but choose to thrive on what I deem to be my species specific diet. I'm not prepared to sacrifice my well-being for "the animals". Make of that what you will.
@dru I stated that I could survive exclusively PB but choose to thrive. The reason I explored veganism is precisely because I wasn't attached to eating animal products. I've simply let physiology dictate.
What vegans forget: Bioavailability of certain nutrients in a vegan diet just reduce your intake, and eat less red meats and more fish. humans are still omnivores and certain nutrients are mainly coming from meats/fish, a simple well known example is 1g of protein in animal products vs 1g of protein in vegan products, in a lot of cases you would need 2-5x the intake thanks to bioavailability being much worse in most vegan products Many people consume easily 300g of animal products per day, and liters of milk per week.. just replace your milk with soy/oat milk and reduce your animal products to about 100-150g per day on average, and go multiple days without meats replacing it with tempeh for example Veganism is one extreme, the average diet is the other extreme, go with the middle ground, where you only eat as much animal products as you need. personally I consume maybe 600g of meat/fish a week, and drink oatmilk and eat soy yogurt and because I am not vegan I can still go out every so often with friends/family, or eat at their places and not have to go all "but I am vegan so I can't join you" my wallet is also very thankful for not going vegan.
If you have tried veganism you will know it isn't extreme lol. Again, is it more extreme to support the killing of innocent peacful animals or to eat only vegetable? What is more extreme? KILLING or eating plants? Unless we use the word extreme differently, there is no reality where eating a plant is more extreme than killing and eating an animal.
I am not sure where u based at cause I am new to this channel , but I tell you here in BRazil there are actual humans being enslaved inside almost every beef farm here the companies have milllions in debt due to laws regarding enslavement of humans .... I have also worked on a farm before yes , I Can tell the majority of people on farms and who live close to it , have a multitude of diseases due to the cattle creation
I think its a personal decision to go vegan or eating meat. I would not force someone to be vegan. I respect your decision to eat meat and I hope others also respect people who choose to be vegan. I hope and believe each person trying their best to help the earth and improve to be better. To have an open minded to see and learn more about new information is always good for oneself. I hope we all can learn from each other’s perspectives.
Being vegan is horrible for health (bread, pasta, fries etc are all vegan garbage. Being vegan is the worst thing for environment (poor quality plastic fake "leather" that pollutes at highest rate, overuse of farm land, killing natural ecosystems including wildlife with GMO crops, creating mountains of non-compostable plastic waste, using huge amounts of water and toxix chemicals for plant farms, etc). Being vegan is definitely not ethical, since you kill all animals with plastic waste and misuse of farm lands, flooded with toxins and being depleted fast. Please, don't repeat vegan ВS, there are too many idiоts who have zero clue how DAMAGING & UNETHICAL veganism actions is. Aside from being a wrong diet for humans. We are omnivores and must eat 10-15% of animal products to be healthy, since we need certain amino acids and essential fatty acids, none of us could create internally and those must me consumed. Being overweight or obese is selfish and steals resources from people in need. So, lose the fat, don't be so egocentric! Also, enough with shopping addiction and getting into debt! That's way better than being vegan 🙄
If you want to end mistreatment of animals in animal agriculture, you cannot support it at the same time. That never leads to the abolition of these industries.
It’s interesting hearing some vegans proclaim how they’re making a positive contribution to the environment by not eating meat and dairy but they’re more than happy to drive around in their large 4 wheel drives with leather seats.
So, those are not vegans. To be vegan is to not use anything unessential from animals. Ex. Some computer parta are made from bone. Vaccines are tested in poor animals. But while we need to use those, we want to research ways to stop all form of animal abuse. Vegans dont use leather, we have synth leather instead.
If there is no need to cause suffering to another sentient being to thrive, just don’t. There can never be a humane way of taking the life of someone that doesn’t want to die.
There's so much nuance to it since so much of our modern life is unnecessary, but causes suffering. Happy to talk about it if you're up for it, or I can direct you to another interesting (and long) conversation in another part of this comment section.
@ agreed, but you will realize that after cutting through all the nuances, being vegan is the most impactful thing you can do to minimize suffering to sentient beings.
You may (or may not) be right, but in no way does that point to the conclusion that eating animals is wrong. If your objective truly is to minimize all suffering to sentient beings, your life would look very, very different.
@@ThoughtworthyCo let me know again if it is right or wrong if you are the animal being slaughtered. Being vegan is one of the more impactful thing that we can do. The objective is to have more compassion, not to live on air.
Well, if I’m an animal that doesn’t know the difference between right and wrong, then there is no right or wrong if I'm eaten by another animal(such as humans). Not sure what you’re asking exactly.
I made a joke comment about this earlier, but this video has stuck with me as I’ve gone about my day - so I rewatched it just now. The message seems to be that veganism is a personal choice, and the creators believe that we should each respect that choice. I’m completely in agreement! However, I didn’t learn why they (the two creators on this channel) aren’t vegan. I was a strict vegan for almost a decade. I currently have a diet that is most easily described as pescatarian, but on most days looks more like a vegan diet. Why am I not vegan? Because I eat what I want to eat. See how easy that question was to answer? The creators of this video spent almost 8 minutes not answering the question, as it’s suggested in the title they will be. I suspect their real answer to the question is the same as mine. They state in the description or a pinned comment that they’re intentionally not discussing research or statistics. Raising health (beyond the individual) and environmental impacts of a vegan diet are essentially pointless without considering scientific research. They suggest relaying on common sense to inform this discussion rather than scientific data. My common sense can’t tell me much about the environmental impact of gargantuan amounts of cow farts. I guess I’m just annoyed that the title of this video suggested it was something it’s not, and the creators spent the video dancing around a topic that doesn’t really have anything to do with veganism - they just wanted to talk about respecting personal choices. As suggested in the video, there are a great number of vegans here on the old internet that are huge jerks - and even though they’re jerks they typically have pretty good arguments that are much more informed and clearly communicated than this video. If the purpose was to answer those folks’ arguments, I don’t think it’s doing it. Alternatively, I’m old and I forget that a large portion of social media content has the exclusive purpose of getting attention and engagement. If that’s the case here, I’m happy to help! 🙃
I can see where you’re coming from. In a way, the video was crafted like that by design. Let me summarise the flow of logic to see if it would make more sense to you. Health: If someone has fish once a week, it’s not going to be worse for their health. Therefore, veganism is unnecessary for health. Environment: If someone has fish once a week that they caught themselves, it’s not going to be worse for the environment. Therefore veganism is unnecessary for sustainability. I think we made it clear in the video that we’re not against veganism. But to say veganism is *necessary* for the above reasons; would you say you agree with that? (Probably not since you’ve already mentioned you stopped being vegan.) Do we need “science” to prove that for us? All that’s left is the ethical consideration. A conversation very worth having. But discussing our moral point of view will require more than just a single video to do. It requires back and forth, and the challenging of beliefs, like you see in the comments. Maybe I can simply say “Basically, I don’t think it’s wrong to consume animals for food, full stop” in the video, but what good is that going to do? So for conversation’s sake, do you think it’s wrong to consume animal products?
@@ThoughtworthyCo I appreciate your response - this does clarify your process, but allow me to answer your questions along with some counterpoints. Health: I agree, fish once a week isn't likely to be worse for one's health - it will likely be better! For the sake of argument, if a person has fish only once a week, why have fish at all? (While this is an ethical question, rather than health-related) - Is the life of a fish worth your enjoyment or a minimal health benefit? Environment: I completely agree that a person eating one fish per week that they have caught themselves likely has zero environmental impact. However, this doesn't reflect my own meat consumption, and I'd speculate that it doesn't reflect the majority of meat consumption for people in "developed" parts of the world. I live in the US, and a substantial portion of our culture reacts to the idea of veganism with offense & mockery - they would not consider giving up eating meat (or limiting their consumption to one fish per week) and consider anyone who does to be a fool. As you point out, eating meat is no longer a special occasion, but more of an expectation at meals - with industrial farming and animal agricultural industries scaling up to meet the demand. We need data to have an informed discussion on the environmental impact of those industries, and how widespread adoption of veganism could potentially lessen that impact. Individual choice matters here, but reducing the environmental aspect of this discussion to one person's choices ignores the larger problem. What has been your experience with the frequency of meat consumption with your family, friends, and neighbors - and where does the meat usually come from? Is veganism necessary for a healthy diet? No - but it's a good place to start. Additionally, I don't believe eating animals and animal-products is necessary for a healthy diet for most people. Is veganism necessary to improve our environment? No - but it may be highly beneficial. I believe that if humans in large numbers eliminated animal consumption from their lives, this would decrease the need for animal agriculture and factory farming - leading to an improved environment. Do we need "science" to prove this? Yes, for humans (especially those with no personal motivation) to understand the impact that eating animals has on the human body and that farming animals has on Earth's environment - and then choose to change their behavior - we need science to provide some evidence. I don't believe in proof, only evidence ;) Ethics: Indeed, this is complex, nuanced, and emotionally charged - I understand why you did not explore this more in the video. However, to those with strongly held beliefs that eating animals is a moral offense - I think you have communicated that “Basically, I don’t think it’s wrong to consume animals for food, full stop” even though you didn't use those words. Some people you will converse with here believe that an individual's choice to eat animals affects other people, animals, and our environment to an extent that it cannot be dismissed as "personal choice" - and many of them are going to have sound arguments for that position. Maybe the person who thinks this way is illustrating your point about polarizing issues by refusing to acknowledge a viewpoint they don't agree with - or maybe they're right. "do you think it’s wrong to consume animal products?" No. I believe this has to be my answer because, as you read, I eat animals even though I believe that the "right" choice or the "best" choice for humans is not to eat animals unless it is necessary for health or survival. Health or survival are not currently my reasons - instead my reasons are complex, nuanced, and emotional :) I can summarize by saying that after some unexpected life changes I thoughtfully and intentionally chose to begin eating certain animal and animal-product foods again simply because I wanted to. I've found the choice itself personally meaningful and enriching, while also enjoying eating eggs and fish. Admittedly, this is a contradictory position - but for now I am comfortable in that discomfort. The morally unambiguous people I mentioned in the paragraph above will likely not appreciate this. To me, this video did a good job of illustrating that perhaps problems don't require "all-in" solutions and that learning from opposing viewpoints is more valuable than flatly dismissing those we don't agree with - but it didn't tell me why you aren't vegan. I don't think you owe specifics to your viewers, but I don't think you should have included "Why We're Not Vegan" in the title. I read elsewhere in the comments that the two of you have studied nutrition recently, and I'd be interested to know more about what you learned and how that influenced your diet, regardless of whether or not that influenced your thoughts on veganism - though I understand if you choose not to explore this with a video. Lastly, I have enjoyed your videos for some time now, and I'm especially impressed with your desk setups. :)
It sounds like for the most part, we can agree that veganism is not necessary for health or environment, at least in theory. That statement, as far as we know, is fundamentally true if we don’t introduce additional conditions to the equation for now(e.g. complaints about how that doesn’t reflect real world consumption habits, or problems with the practices and processes, etc.). I believe your point is that even though it may not be necessary, being vegan can and will have a very positive impact for the environment and to a lesser extent, health as well. We also explicitly agreed with that in the video, so we should be on the same page there. *What has been your experience with the frequency of meat consumption with your family, friends, and neighbors - and where does the meat usually come from?* I get your point with this question, but that’s also something we’ve addressed in the video, which is an issue with real world practices and processes. *RE: Science and evidence* I have to make it clear again, I do believe in and trust science. But I think our opinions differ in the usage of evidence as a communication tool. I don’t think everyone approaches decision making with hard numbers like you (or myself, to a smaller extent) do. As a content creator, I’m thinking about how I can best communicate my ideas to the majority of my audience. My goal is to bring progress. What’s something we can all rally behind? I believe for the most part, I did a passable? job that overall, did more good than bad. You said this in another comment: "They’ve intentionally left evidence based science out of the discussion, rendering this video kind of pointless." The point of my video like I said is not to be “right”. I think using the so-called “evidence-based” approach would not have been helpful to the message of the last chapter in particular. Look at other pro-vegan or anti-vegan comment threads that fall back on arguing with "mine vs yours" evidence. What have they achieved? All I see is more divide. If the goal is to feel good by feeling "right"? Great. If the goal is to push more people away from and resent a well-intentioned movement? Also accomplished, well done. *RE: Ethics* Thank you for sharing your journey and experience. I think all of our reasons are complex, nuanced and emotional :) *Is the life of a fish worth your enjoyment or a minimal health benefit?* I get the point of questions like these, but frankly and respectfully, I don’t think they’re that productive. If one answers yes, they’ll look like an evil person. If one answers no, then why will they consume animals. Arguably, the question was designed in bad faith, meant to play on emotions and make a person look and feel bad, but not necessarily helping them to get closer to their personal answer of whether it's immoral to consume animals. Do you think it may be because of the distance we’ve managed to create between ourselves and the natural, cruel sufferings of the world? Why do we feel bad for a gazelle that’s being eaten by the lion? Can one not feel pleasure, but also gratitude and remorse at the same time when consuming animals? Maybe having a little remorse as one of many other feelings doesn’t make it “wrong”? Complex, nuanced and emotional. I think it’s such a fascinating subject. *RE: The rest of your comment* I think the rest of what you said is completely fair. I hope I didn’t miss out anything, I left your comment to the end because it was so long 😅 that I almost forgot to respond. I know you started with one joke comment, but I’m glad we ended up having this conversation. Anyway, thanks for supporting the channel all this time!
@@ThoughtworthyCo Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply - it took me a few days to find the time to absorb it. I'll try to be brief and concise - as I respect the amount of time and energy you've spent reading and responding here! Any questions below are simply food for thought. Re: Health & Environment - I can't wholeheartedly agree that we're on the same page, because I believe the critical element of these factors is how our collective actions influence the systems that have developed to meet our needs/desires. Reducing these factors to the actions of the individual, and reducing the standard to "necessary", results in too small a scope. Broadly, a choice does not have to be "necessary" or "essential" in order to the be the "right" choice or the "best" choice. Re: Evidence - I see your point where evidence is not useful for the purposes of the video, and I agree that blunt argument may most often have the opposite effect that some intend. I believe that some pro-vegan folks wield evidence so heavily because their personal experience was that the evidence was eye-opening and life changing for them - so if they could only make you see, then you'd understand! ;) Again, I believe evidence is a critical part of the discussion, and to exclude it is an error - but you have to draw the line somewhere - you didn't intend to make a 12-part series on the history of veganism (though, perhaps this is upcoming). Re: the life of a fish - the question wasn't intended in bad faith, but was perhaps poorly placed in the discussion. I don't think you or anyone else should feel bad for eating a fish (I do not). My standard for "evil" behavior requires much more devious decisions. I think what I was getting at is "why eat the fish at all"? If the fish and I share an existence here, we're made of the same "stuff", we share some of the same anatomical traits - I'm arguably more intelligent than the fish, stronger than the fish - just because I can eat the fish, am I justified in doing so if I do not need to? Re: the natural world - I agree, this is a fascinating subject. I also agree that the divide created in modern society between food in the field and food on the plate is significant. I'd say it's not a loss of gratitude and remorse, but instead a loss of the full spectrum of gratitude - not just life and death of an animal, but the growth and harvesting of plants we eat is also significant and beautiful. Apologies for the amateur philosophy - I think as humans we're fully part of the natural world, but are obviously unique in it. We have cycles of destruction and progression - but we haven't evolved so that we can better "us" without a cost to "them". While some will say that this is just the way the world is - the lion eats the gazelle, and we are part of that world - that sounds very bleak to me. If humans continue as we have - doing essentially the same things with nicer toys - this seems pointless - more than surviving, but not much more. I believe we can be better, but it will require an evolution of thought and behavior that leads to humanity thriving without reliance on the suffering of others. While that is primarily in reference to human suffering, I think abandoning reliance on animal suffering is inseparably linked - again, humans are part of the natural world, but unique. Not something I expect to see in my lifetime, but I imagine it's possible. The lion should still eat the gazelle, I would not recommend disrupting that process. Thanks again for taking the time - I'm also thankful for our conversation, I've enjoyed it!
No problem. I’ll still leave my thoughts although it’s perfectly understandable if you leave the conversation as it is after that. I’ll try to avoid posing questions so you don’t feel obliged to respond 🙂 *I can't wholeheartedly agree that we're on the same page* I think the problem with these polarizing topics is that emotionally, it can feel dishonorable to agree with the opposing view, even when we logically agree. The statement we were discussing was “Is it true that veganism is not necessary for the good of the environment”. Not whether it’s the right or best choice, just whether it’s the necessary choice. Which you've essentially agreed it's not necessary. I understand your point about our collective impact. But to say it IS necessary, is to say even if everyone in the world who can be vegan has converted, one man catching and eating a fish once a week is still an environmental problem. Because then you can shift the arguments to “what IF everyone does the same? BUT when he eats one fish, he’ll crave a second fish. etc.” All the unnecessary and irrelevant buts and ifs. In a time where it’s so hard to agree on anything, we should take the win when we can find something we obviously, logically agree on. To agree is not to concede defeat. Of course, I’m not just directing that at you; it’s the same for all of us. *Broadly, a choice does not have to be "necessary" or "essential" in order to the be the "right" choice or the "best" choice.* You’re totally right, a choice does not have to be necessary to be the best choice. But if a choice IS necessary, there wouldn’t be a need to find the right or best choice, because it’s the ONLY choice. One choice is no choice. *I see your point where evidence is not useful for the purposes of the video, … … to exclude it is an error”* Not sure how to remedy this. I think it’s an extension of what has been mentioned above; maybe it’s just incredibly hard to explicitly agree with something said by someone with opposing views. *the question wasn't intended in bad faith, but was perhaps poorly placed in the discussion.* Oh no I definitely didn’t mean that you asked the question in bad faith, apologies if that was how it came across. I’m sure you didn’t “design” the question, maybe you read something similar somewhere or someone posed this question to you in the past. What I meant was that whoever came up with the original: “Is the life of an animal worth the few seconds of pleasure?”, framed the question in bad faith. It’s no doubt an effective, manipulative question, which is why it would linger in our minds. But to take a basic necessity, “food”, and all the culture that has turned sustenance into something “pleasurable”, and reducing it to simply “a few seconds of pleasure” is incredibly disingenuous, in my humble opinion. The question was designed to convert, not to seek truth or clarity. I know teenage me would have succumbed to the question, as I would have been particularly emotionally vulnerable at the time. *just because I can eat the fish, am I justified in doing so if I do not need to?* How can we live if we have to morally justify every single action we choose or choose not to do, just because we can. Am I morally justified to go on a vacation, when I can instead volunteer and save lives at a poor village? I choose to consume animal products not because I think it’s morally right, but because I think it’s not morally wrong. *Apologies for the amateur philosophy* No worries, we’re all amateurs, I’m no philosophy major myself 😅 But I guess we can call it a day on the philosophical side of the debate for now, before we make the conversation indigestible. 🤝 I just want to end by going back a little and referring to a statement in your previous comment :*”a substantial portion of our culture reacts to the idea of veganism with offense & mockery”* I frankly believe that is not the case. We must remind ourselves that the loudest and most obnoxious do not represent the majority. The “anti-vegans” are a consequence of the actions of “annoying vegans”, and these two groups of voices are the only ones we hear because they shout the loudest. We can’t condone the actions of either extremes, and like we said in the video, it’s not about who's right or wrong. More importantly, the “annoying vegans” are undoing the good work of the mature and respectful vegans before them. My point is that to stop causing divide, we should stop designing questions in bad faith, finding it dishonorable to agree on a truth, and instead take the win collectively wherever we can, so we can start doing better. Thanks for your time, and I wish you all the best!
Nope! Being vegan is horrible for health (bread, pasta, fries etc are all vegan garbage. Being vegan is the worst thing for environment (poor quality plastic fake "leather" that pollutes at highest rate, overuse of farm land, killing natural ecosystems including wildlife with GMO crops, creating mountains of non-compostable plastic waste, using huge amounts of water and toxix chemicals for plant farms, etc). Being vegan is definitely not ethical, since you kill all animals with plastic waste and misuse of farm lands, flooded with toxins and being depleted fast. Please, don't repeat vegan ВS, there are too many idiоts who have zero clue how DAMAGING & UNETHICAL veganism actions is. Aside from being a wrong diet for humans. We are omnivores and must eat 10-15% of animal products to be healthy, since we need certain amino acids and essential fatty acids, none of us could create internally and those must me consumed. Being overweight or obese is selfish and steals resources from people in need. So, lose the fat, don't be so egocentric! Also, enough with shopping addiction and getting into debt! That's way better than being vegan 🙄 Shame on you!
@@mikesamovarov4054 1. Which amino acid is only found in animal products? 2. Why are you not critical of meat in the supermarket wrapped in plastic? Or milk in plastic bottles... 3. You do realise (according to FDA) that over 95% of livestock eat GMO crops? Can you imagine the cost of meat and dairy without GMO crops?
@@Prizzy999 it's not what you eat that bothers us, it's WHO you eat. There's zero necessity for humans to eat flesh or secretions from sentient beings. So of course an action which infringes on the rights of others for that purpose will be judged as bad. Get with the program.
1. The more vegetables and fiber in the diet, the healthier. The least cholesterol and saturated fats in the diet the healthier. The least read meat, the healthier. This is evidence-based science, and it’s what official guidelines in different countries agree with. There is no debate about this, except for misinformed people. 2. Yes, being vegan is the best option for the planet. 3. And yes, veganism is respecting animlas. Look, it’s okay not to be vegan because you don’t want to. But don’t bring down all the clear advantages of veganism just to make yourself feel better. And the argument of reduction, although is partially logic, is at the same time nonsense. The fact that you eat less meat does not change the fact that you are still mistreating and killing animals unnecessarily. A video like this is totally out of place and inappropriate.
Omnivore diets were fine until seed oils & refined/processed foods appeared. I fare worse when the (WF) animal/plant ratio is very low, so animal products are both species specific & necessary.
See the creator’s pinned comment. They’ve intentionally left evidence based science out of the discussion, rendering this video kind of pointless. They made an 8 minute video illustrating why we should respect one another’s choices, (which I agree with!), but gave no specific reasons why they themselves aren’t vegan. They didn’t want to discuss veganism, they wanted to tell you they know the reasons for veganism are sound, but those reasons aren’t enough for them to eat a vegan diet (without actually saying that). Frankly I don’t care whether these folks are vegan, I just don’t understand the point of this video. It’s could have just as easily been about whether you think wearing jeans and sandals in public is appropriate, and then not actually weighing in on this issue. (In case you’re wondering, the jeans/sandals combo - while undeniably comfortable - cannot justifiably be worn in public.)
Sorry, there’s a lot to unpack here. *The more vegetables and fiber in the diet, the healthier.* That’s an exaggeration that clearly can’t be right. Are you saying a Cabbage Soup diet is healthy? *The least cholesterol and saturated fats in the diet the healthier.* Another over-generalisation. Anyway, current consensus is that dietary cholesterol doesn’t make a big difference to most people’s blood cholesterol. But even then, that’s just the current consensus which can shift in the future. *This is evidence-based science, and it’s what official guidelines in different countries agree with.* I'm very ready to admit that I don't know all the answers, but the fact that you can say all these with such certainty is alarming. We’ve established that the things you said can’t exactly be considered evidence-based science. And also, just because they’re in different countries’ official guidelines, doesn’t mean it’s a solved equation. Guidelines all over the world have changed significantly over the years, and will continue to change. They’re not invulnerable to mistakes. Note: we’re not nutritionists/dietitians (educated guess is that commenter isn’t either), but we did go back to school for a year to study nutrition science. Not that it really matters, just want to let anyone reading this know that this discussion about nutrition is by no means between two experts. *Yes, being vegan is the best option for the planet.* How are you able to say that with such certainty? Are you saying that it’s a problem for the environment if someone has a predominantly plant-based diet, but have some fish (that they caught themselves) once a week? *But don’t bring down all the clear advantages of veganism just to make yourself feel better.* So...what clear advantages? At the end of the day, I believe what you’re arguing for is simply the moral right and wrong of consuming animal products. I believe that’s a conversation worth having and I would be delighted to have it with you. But… *A video like this is totally out of place and inappropriate.* I’m not sure how productive such a conversation will be when it’s so emotionally charged. Just because I’m very likely to disagree with your moral point of view, doesn’t make this video out of place or inappropriate.
Being vegan is horrible for health (bread, pasta, fries etc are all vegan garbage. Being vegan is the worst thing for environment (poor quality plastic fake "leather" that pollutes at highest rate, overuse of farm land, killing natural ecosystems including wildlife with GMO crops, creating mountains of non-compostable plastic waste, using huge amounts of water and toxix chemicals for plant farms, etc). Being vegan is definitely not ethical, since you kill all animals with plastic waste and misuse of farm lands, flooded with toxins and being depleted fast. Please, don't repeat vegan ВS, there are too many idiоts who have zero clue how DAMAGING & UNETHICAL veganism actions is. Aside from being a wrong diet for humans. We are omnivores and must eat 10-15% of animal products to be healthy, since we need certain amino acids and essential fatty acids, none of us could create internally and those must me consumed. Being overweight or obese is selfish and steals resources from people in need. So, lose the fat, don't be so egocentric! Also, enough with shopping addiction and getting into debt! That's way better than being vegan 🙄
I was vegan for 6 years. It was horrible. There is nothing good about eating industrial tofu and shitty veg industrial burgers, unless you make everything yourself from raw ingredients. Still awful and unhealthy though, because it's very unbalanced. My iron and vitamin deficiencies sky rocketed in those 6 years. Haven't had meat for 12 years now but if my health is at risk I'll start again, I'm not having a miserable life just because someone somewhere has decided I have to feel guilty to have a normal diet. A bit of everything is always key.
I an very much at peace now because i went vegan 10 years ago. It has been the best decision of my life. I have no doubt it is the future of food to not consume animal products. But change takes time.
Why did going carnivore improve my health and reverse my chronic health issues? I can count on two hands the times I've eaten vegetables in the last 7 months and I've never felt better.
Tradition, convenience, etc :doesn’t justify killing and exploiting. Less people do g child abuse is better than a lot of being abusing children, doesn’t means u should advocate for people to do less child abuse. U should tell them to stop all together. So I want to know what is the morally relevant difference why it’s ok to exploit and kill non humans for convenience and chlorite and tradition etc but not ok to do the same to humans? Name the trait(s)
Being vegan is horrible for health (bread, pasta, fries etc are all vegan garbage. Being vegan is the worst thing for environment (poor quality plastic fake "leather" that pollutes at highest rate, overuse of farm land, killing natural ecosystems including wildlife with GMO crops, creating mountains of non-compostable plastic waste, using huge amounts of water and toxix chemicals for plant farms, etc). Being vegan is definitely not ethical, since you kill all animals with plastic waste and misuse of farm lands, flooded with toxins and being depleted fast. Please, don't repeat vegan ВS, there are too many idiоts who have zero clue how DAMAGING & UNETHICAL veganism actions is. Aside from being a wrong diet for humans. We are omnivores and must eat 10-15% of animal products to be healthy, since we need certain amino acids and essential fatty acids, none of us could create internally and those must me consumed. Being overweight or obese is selfish and steals resources from people in need. So, lose the fat, don't be so egocentric! Also, enough with shopping addiction and getting into debt! That's way better than being vegan 🙄
im laughing a lot seeing this I am actually a very muscular latino guy from BRazil sitting here in Sâo Paulo I do lift 2 cement sacks 50kg each Ibeen through all sorts of struggle but I never abandoned the veganism , well just think about it everything is energy is this the type of energy you want everytime inside you /??? the planning of meals is complicated for you because they make less options on purpose depending on the region for us vegans but I tell you , its not that complicated to boil and season some veggies to eat I can really show you in multiple ways we are superior on cardio and on strenght exercises also it was very fun to see it , no my friend you dont need any bl 0 0 d in your mouth to get strong , a high protein diet comes with increased risk of cancer , tumor , blocked veins , no matter if its animal or vegetal , most of this mediterranean diet and alll this nutritionist marketing is buLLLKrePs , I really hope you think less about yourself and more on the environment and the animals that was a really fun , nice try tiger
great video on many levels. being born omnivores has to say something about what we should be putting in our bodies. it doesn't have to be every day like you say. I have a little once a week just for nutrition and gut health
Humans aren’t born omnivores. Infant humans are often hardcore mono-dieters, subsisting exclusively on the milk of their mother, or in some cases the milk of other mammals (weird!). The typical human becomes an omnivore when the other humans responsible for its well-being introduce a variety of other foods into its diet. This could result in any number of dietary choices once the human is an adult. I can only support my opinion here by assuring you that my username checks out.
@@beardednurse yes. im saying the fact we can eat meat and vegetables without problems (mostly) and thrive says a lot about our evolution and what we have used in the past for nutrition.
@@sundersquare thanks for that clarification, though I still don’t think we’re born omnivorous, despite our biological ability eat and consume both plant and animal matter. Instead, our GI system adjusts to what it’s given, as infants or adults. The fact that a human is capable of a particular action isn’t great evidence that the action itself is useful or good. The human body is capable of a variety of actions that have positive and negative consequences for the human itself, other humans or creatures around it, or it’s environment in general. I think better evidence for the choices we should make is given by what we know about the consequences and results of our actions, rather than our knowledge of which actions are available to us.
This one isn’t going to age well. Once our alien overlords arrive and discover how much they enjoy the taste of human, we’ll have more important problems to solve. It’s easy to agree to disagree when you’re both at the top of the food chain.
Interesting take. Purely speculative, but I’m guessing that the taste of human is roughly the same regardless of the human’s diet - though perhaps intelligent alien life has an advanced taste palate that would lead them to care about such things. In that case, bonus for the herbivores. I think it’s more likely the aliens won’t be so discerning and we all become equally opportune choices for Glorp Glop’s lunch.
@@beardednurse no bro, you forgot that we have chinese people, by the time they set foot on earth there will already be a gourmet restaurant with alien meat on the menu in china
Sorry veganism is a cult (falls short of being a religion as they don't believe in a higher being, but has many other common characteristics) There are many modern processed junk foods that are vegan, which is arguably not healthy. And you can otherwise eat dozens of other diets, that eliminate processed/factory food. In fact, the majority of vegans live on some of the same factory farmed foods, using monocrops that sterilse the soil with all non-crop plant life with toxic pesticides and artificial fertilisers. The ethic argument is bunk, as we have always killed and eaten animals for nutrition, going back millions of years. But a group of people who lived a cotton wool existence, around 70 years ago, decided to be offended by this.
I still believe it's helthier to include animal products. But i still care about the animals, so i have created a few rules: - only chicken meat: way less intelligence than most animals and less impact on environment, - only some fish for omega 3. Milk and eggs from animals living in good conditions to me is kind enough. Honestly if i was an animal, i wish to have food and be protected from death and diseases of "nature". Isn't that what we do as humans for ourselves?
It's hard to be recruited into the cause when Vegans are misleading the public and themselves about the environmental harm of meat and the nutritional benefits of Veganism that doesn't survive scientific and anthropologic scrutiny. The truth is somewhat more nuanced. But I think most of us would agree that the factory farming model needs to be replaced with something more sustainable and ethical.
The ethical discussion ends when you just admit the cruel truth and reply: “Well, sure you’re a kind hearted person, but excuse me if I’m not kind hearted enough to care about my food being killed.”
I don't think you need to justify your consumption of animal foods so much. I'm saying this because I felt a bit bad for you guys after reading through some of the comments. It's perfectly normal human behaviour that has played an integral role during our evolution over hundreds of thousands of years. Personally, I think that veganism is a modern eating disorder and it seems to have predominantly spread among women in highly industrialized societies (pretty much Europe and NA). (The same pattern as any other eating disorder)
I'm vegan (diet wise) for 16 years now. I can't say a conscious choice not to eat meat or its byproducts to be an "eating disorder". That said, I don't see any issue in the consumption of meat by itself. The fact that we should eat globally less meat, in favor of more vegetable sources in general is a well established one, though. Doctors commonly recommend the consumption of less red meat for multiple reasons. From a planetary perspective, the industrial meat production in general have been pressing agricultural lands to do what I call a second hand farming: we grow soy and corn, to feed poultry and hogs, that are then slaughtered and distributed through a very complicated logistic chain due to refrigeration and sanitation needs. This cycle demands much more energy than a simple grain/beans based logistics. Mind that I'm not saying this is the reason for global warming. Burning petrol is the main reason. But logistic burdens are a relevant factor nonetheless. Notice that this is totally different to have a farmer creating a hog on leftovers and then slaughtering it at the end of the year to make sausage/lard/etc. Or having a few chickens as part of a permaculture setting to control plague insects, and then using their eggs and eventually slaughter a non producing hen to make a broth. Or to have pigs bred to collect insuline for people with type 1 diabetes. And notice that "being vegan" by itself may solve the logistic burden mentioned. If you eat those ultra processed vegan burgers, you are just creating the same problems, but with vegetarian sources instead.
Yesss, love being who I'm born to be. An omnivore! Love it! I only use what I need. I do it in ethical and correct way, since I'm Jewish. Being vegan is horrible for health (bread, pasta, fries etc are all vegan garbage. Being vegan is the worst thing for environment (poor quality plastic fake "leather" that pollutes at highest rate, overuse of farm land, killing natural ecosystems including wildlife with GMO crops, creating mountains of non-compostable plastic waste, using huge amounts of water and toxix chemicals for plant farms, etc). Being vegan is definitely not ethical, since you kill all animals with plastic waste and misuse of farm lands, flooded with toxins and being depleted fast. Please, don't repeat vegan ВS, there are too many idiоts who have zero clue how DAMAGING & UNETHICAL veganism actions is. Aside from being a wrong diet for humans. We are omnivores and must eat 10-15% of animal products to be healthy, since we need certain amino acids and essential fatty acids, none of us could create internally and those must me consumed. Being overweight or obese is selfish and steals resources from people in need. So, lose the fat, don't be so egocentric! Also, enough with shopping addiction and getting into debt! That's way better than being vegan 🙄
Many should examine the role of animals in which every species of an animal has a specific purpose which was ordained by a higher power. Many wear leather and silk and hardly ever question any ethical issues with this. Many animals are domesticed which is not their normal standard of living. Nothing wrong with eating meat. Animals may have similarities to humans but they are not humans. Eating should be enjoyable....ANYBODY WANT CHICKEN???😅
#UPDATE
So, it’s not surprising that there's been a significant amount of negativity and angst in the comments. We know this can be an emotional topic for some groups of people.
*Q. Why risk it by making this video?*
It’s because some vegans respectfully asked, that we felt it might be worthwhile to make this video. We keep reminding ourselves that the loudest do not represent the majority, and that there are those who are genuinely curious and open-minded.
We knew it would be rough when we opened up this dialogue. Just imagine making a video where the overall message is that we should all work together and do better, and receiving a comment that says "a video like this is totally out of place and inappropriate”, simply because we don't share the same opinions. We accepted the risk that no matter how good the intentions, there will still be those who simply go “unsubscribed!” and “dislike!!” without even properly consuming the content.
*RE: Open, thoughtful dialogue*
It’s been both intellectually stimulating and exhausting, spending an entire Sunday responding to as many comments as I can.
To those who challenged our beliefs in a respectful manner, we thank you all so much. We love having these intellectually stimulating conversations, and we believe they help to progress us towards doing “better”.
The problem is with the exhausting conversations. It’s no longer viable for us to continue wasting our energy on conversations we think are going nowhere. We’ll have to pick and choose where we spend our time. These are some red flags:
- Those who show a serious lack of maturity, respect and reason (name-calling, making bad assumptions, letting emotions get the better of them, etc.)
- Those who don't respond well to having their beliefs challenged, but are trigger-happy about rudely challenging others'
- Those who claim to be open-minded, but are obviously obsessed about being "right"
But sometimes, if we didn't respond to your comment, it may simply be because we missed out or lost track, so please don’t take it personally.
--
That's all for now, but we’ll update this pinned comment with further information when necessary as time goes by. Have a good one!
Thank you for making this video. If more content creators/news media encouraged respectful discussion as you have here rather than simply pleasing their audience by saying things they already believe and like to hear, the world might be a more pleasant and understanding place. So thank you for pushing that needle just a tiny bit in the right direction! I think you did the right thing making this video.
Just a quick footnote. I suspect why we sometimes cannot have constructive discussions is that we are usually deep inside an echo chamber and so when we hear a dissenting voice, we feel very justified to react with outrage. It's like how we might react if someone told us they believe that it's ok to torture children for fun. We'd react with outrage rather than sit down for a calm exchange of ideas. I am not sure what to do with this. On one hand, I think people are this way because they strongly believe in right/wrong, which is kinda a good thing. But at the same time it's really polarizing the world and it gets pretty ugly. Oh well... life is complicated. Have a good day!
Eat for Life:
ua-cam.com/video/xI8zKSUVSiU/v-deo.html
People can have an opinion, but there's no reason to be hateful and belittling. If you want to change someone - speak kindly or walk away.
I think veganism is a simple argument: Do animals deserve to live?
I don't believe hurting or killing animals is the right choice. People who eat animals don't believe that enough to change their actions. That may be hard to hear, but it is the plain truth.
You can preach openness and kindness but remember animals are always the third party in these discussions, and you are ignoring them because its more comfortable than looking at the truth. With 1 trillion fish and 80 billion land animals a year, as well as the pollution and water/grain wastage (that is 80% of our yeild, the plants humans eat are only 20% of the crops) from animal products, its the least minimalist thing you can do.
And if you only care about humans, well its not fair so many people are forced to kill repeatedly everyday in slaughterhouses- many are stressed, underpaid and traumatised. Not everyone has the privilege to turn away.
Pignorent, Dominion, Gamechangers, Earthlings, Cowspiracy - pick one and watch it. Pignorent is the most recent, and Earthlings is what opened my eyes long before people knew what a vegan was.
I went vegan six years ago because where I live and in my life situation, factory farming is the way animal products are produced and I am in a position to be able to make the choice not to participate in that system.
For me it's an ethical and environmental decision, any health benefits are a bonus. Health is not always a benefit in veganism because it's totally possible to be a junk food vegan and hardly ever eat vegetables. Most ways of eating can be healthy or not depending on how you go about it. I try to make healthy choices and after the initial learning curve find that my plant based diet is easy to maintain and less expensive.
I don't think the all or nothing approach is realistic. Life is way more complicated. Everyone's circumstances are unique to them and we all can only do what's best for us and within our means. Educate yourself (using non-biased sources) and make conscious choices for how you want to live. Once I learned about the animal agriculture industry my choice was clear, but I also think that being kind to people is just as important as being kind to animals.
Very balanced take. Thank you 🙌
Excellently put! I think one of the things I didn’t expect about being fully vegan was how much better it made me feel emotionally on a day to day basis - like a weight had been lifted. I think perhaps some members of the vegan community see it as their responsibility to try and ‘free’ everyone, but that’s simply not how humans work. We gotta make our own choices in our own time, as it’ll never stick or make us happy otherwise.
It's also possible to do a "perfect" vegan diet and fail miserably because it's not a natural human diet.
I would suggest watching videos of Earthling Ed. He puts the vegan case often in discussion with non vegans. He is known for calm reasoned argument. It makes for good viewing, a point made by many of those (including meat eaters) commenting on his presentations. It is educational too.
We're actually very familiar with Ed's content. I like how calm he is; the issue is it's easy to look convincing when debating with unsuspecting passersby, making his content a little skewed. Still, nothing against him :)
I would recommend finding out about nutritionists who've been working on specific nutrients for several years or even decades. There is one female scientist in that field who said that she has been working for 10 years or so on choline. I had a quick glimpse on her in a video that was from an Austrian nutritionist. I wouldn't recommend watching videos on nutrition from someone who doesn't even have a masters degree in that field (or no special interest with a focus on science, I mean real science, in mind).
I became vegan at the recommendation of my cardiologist. So health was the predominant factor. Seeing the earth being destroyed by factory farming makes me feel like it is a human imperative. But I also agree that millions of people doing better would be a great start to lasting change.
My ethical viewpoint is that if you are able to kill the animal yourself and live with the consequential bad feelings of doing so it's fine. I've got family in poorer parts of Asia who do several times a week and cherish every single part of the animal, which I celebrate and have zero issue with.
However, what's not cool is the industrialisation of animal farming, turning what is a sentient animal into a "product" in which you have no attachment to when you eat.
I'm not vegan, but vegetarian, and I live with the consequences of feeling horrible after eating dairy products (it's part of life to live with the consequence of your choices). I don't preach to my friends about being vegetarian or vegan, however spoil them with alternate products which at an atomic level means one less animal product being eaten, but at large scale could mean hundreds of thousands less animals being farmed and their associated carbon footprint.
I think flexitarian is the future!
Just don't buy plastic clothes fakery, those kill wildlife.
Well, eat air if that makes you feel better.
Guys, you have to realize how crazy you all sound, one day.
I eat almost 100 percent animal based and raise, kill and process most of my own food.
There’s this unhealthy perception that being a Vegan means you have to be perfect, when it’s truly about significantly reducing unnecessary suffering. Before even talking about Veganism, I think people should start on the mental model why people get triggered by the information they receive, resulting to a push back. Maybe one day we won’t have to call it Vegan, it would just be showing compassion to other sentient beings that deserve to live in their own way, not to be commodified through speciesism.
A really balanced and thought provoking approach to a topic that can be very polarising! Thanks for sharing and opening the minds to others.
Thank you for watching and commenting, really appreciate it! 🙌
It takes two steps for masses to move a step forward. Veganism is only seen as extreme now because our society have normalized ways to extensively commodify other sentient beings based on traditions that isn’t serving us in today’s context. Discussions to raise awareness of existential and social problems not exclusively to just Vegans needs to be normalized until it becomes a norm. Until then any effort is valued. I don’t have to be called a Vegan, it’s my personal take to make myself more relatable but I understand the term is needed for optics to be as an opposing side of Speciesism. Both sides shouldn’t push absolutism but we need to eradicate the stigma against Veganism. I believe majority of the push back comes from biases that aren’t managed, then corrupts the unflattering truths about animal agriculture.
Why do you think there’s a stigma against veganism?
Actions cause reactions. The minority of vegans who push extreme, self-righteous views cause a reaction that makes people become anti-vegan. We’re talking about the polarized ends, the 1% vs 1%. In reality the 98% of people in the middle are just minding their own business, no stigma whatsoever.
But in one statement, you’ve pit veganism against every non-vegan. All vegans vs “speciesists”. 5% (very generous figure) vs 95% of the world. Why do you think veganism will be normalized?
@@ThoughtworthyCo Studies show the only people who are viewed nearly as negatively as vegans, are drug addicts. That reaction isn't born solely from a minority of vocal vegans.
@LutraLovegood What do the studies say is the reason for that? Or, why do you think that’s the case?
10+ year vegan here, to summarize your points:
1) You think veganism can be healthy but not worth the effort
2) You think veganism can be environmentally positive but not worth the effort
3) You think veganism can be perfectionist and prefer harm reduction
4) You think veganism can be extreme on the ethical spectrum and draw the line elsewhere
Fair enough but If we're being honest your actual reasons sound more like: culture, convenience, taste.
Which is true for most people in the world.
If you lived on a vegan planet though the likelihood of you making the effort to kill cows for sandwiches is very low.
Which is true for most people in the world.
So you are a product of your culture...like most people in the world.
Every person cannot champion every cause but by aggregation we can all make our culture and world a better place.
So we should support each others efforts to do better for our culture and our world.
The reason vegans make the effort is because they are soberly connected to the hellish suffering of animals on earth.
The surprise is how fun, easy, fulfilling and sensical veganism feels when you try it.
RE: “Not worth the effort”
We think it’s worth the effort if you desire to be vegan. What we’re saying is it’s not necessary.
It’s not that we think veganism is extreme. We totally understand vegans who make veganism a PERSONAL lifestyle choice. What’s extreme is thinking that veganism is absolutely, always, without a doubt, “better” like you said.
At the end of the day, we have not heard any convincing arguments on why consuming animals for food is wrong, therefore we don’t think veganism is necessary. If you disagree, we’re open to hearing why.
@@ThoughtworthyCo If I were butchering a dog in the street would you stop me?
Is there a difference between butchering an apple and a rabbit?
Is there a reason pets and grandma don't go to the slaughterhouse after death?
The first two are fairly obvious so I assume they're rhetorical questions to make a point. But, what's the point?
The third is worded a little weirdly. Slaughterhouse is a place where animals are slaughtered for their meat to supply food. First, you can't slaughter what's already dead. Second, we don't eat pets or grandma. But okay, I get what you're trying to say.
We have different relationships with individuals of a species, as well as with the species as a whole. It's the same reason why you don't mourn or hold a funeral for a mosquito.
I was hoping for more engagement on your part considering you mentioned:
"We have not heard any convincing arguments on why consuming animals for food is wrong"
"If you disagree, we’re open to hearing why"
Do you owe anyone engagement? No
Should your mind be so open your brain falls out? No
Does it seem like you are really open minded? When you answer no question directly and focus on semantics, No
If I were butchering a dog in the street would you stop me? Yes you would.
Does getting pleasure from it make a difference? No
Does paying someone to do it for me make a difference? No
Does putting it behind a wall make a difference? No
Is there a difference between butchering an apple and a rabbit? Yes there is a massive difference.
One makes a kid normal, the other makes a kid a psychopath.
One runs away from the knife and screams and kicks and thrashes for it's life, the other has no subjective experience.
Is there a reason pets and grandma don't go to the slaughterhouse after death? Yes, we respect their life and bodily autonomy
We don't disrespect pets and grandma by calling them "it".
We don't carve their bodies into little pieces and eat them and wear their skin.
You apply these ethical standards to humans and some animals.
Vegans extend these ethical principles to more animals.
That's it. Very direct. Very straightforward. Very simple.
The same reason you don't kill dogs is why vegans don't kill cows.
The same reason you don't eat dog meat is why vegans don't eat cow meat.
The same reason you don't wear dog skin is why vegans don't wear cow skin.
A useful trick for seeing the cultural programming is always replacing "vegan" with "dog-vegan" and "meat" with "dog-meat".
"What’s extreme is thinking that dog-veganism is...always...“better”"
Yes dog-veganism is always "better". Yes veganism is always "better".
Do survival situations exist? yes
Are we in a survival situation? no
Do vegans believe in human-animal equality? no
Do vegans value animal life more than a sandwich flavor? yes
*“Does it seem like you are really open minded? When you answer no question directly and focus on semantics, No”*
Sounds like you’re getting a little personal. What am I doing if not engaging you?
It’s not just semantics. Words have meaning, and I respect the definitions given to words. But, you’re using words that play on emotions. For example, you can’t butcher an apple, but you’re using the word “butcher” to make it seem like there’s a legitimate, evil comparison there, when there isn’t.
If you were butchering a dog in the street for no reason, of course I would stop you. If a kid is butchering a rabbit for no apparent reason, of course an adult would be asking questions.
Like I said, fairly obvious answers that should not need explicit answering. But the question still stands, what is the relevance to our discussion on whether *it’s wrong to consume animals*? Food isn’t just pleasure. Food isn’t “for no reason”. Exactly why I asked, what was your point?
*“Vegans extend these ethical principles to more animals.”*
Yes, I believe we should all live by our principles, and of course that includes you. But that doesn’t mean your principles are better than someone else’s just because they’re different. Very simple, very straightforward.
“Yes dog-veganism is always "better". Yes veganism is always "better”.”
I disagree. I would not be so full of myself to say that a culture that consumes dog meat is worse than my culture, just because they’re different. To be morally consistent, them butchering and eating dogs is the same as us butchering and eating chickens. Again, it’s about the relationship and connection we(and they) have with the species. Different cultures have different relationship dynamics. Just because it makes me uncomfortable doesn’t mean they’re wrong.
“Do vegans believe in human-animal equality? no”
Since you agree that humans and animals are not equal, then where do you draw the line? You say you extend ethical principles to MORE(not all) animals, at what point does it stop?
I recommend the documentary Sacred Cow (Diana Rodgers, 2021). There are so many myths about cattle and its environmental impact. This documentary dispels many of them.
Thanks for the recommendation! 🙌
I’m not going to tell anyone what to do, but I do have a problem with the official denial of the meat industry. If people can watch Earthlings and still want to eat meat then what else can I say.
Same! I tried veganism but it was beyond me financially , especially since i can't eat beans and many of those vegan alternatives due to stomach issues. When i was vegetarian, for 15 years, i had constant bloating and stomach issues due to beans. I stopped eating beans during the pandemic and replaced it with fish. Then slowly added in chicken due to cost. I feel happy, entergetic witj no digestive issues
Are you vegan? What are your views on the morality/ethics of consuming animal products?
When talking about Animal Agriculture I would say factory farming is the biggest problem but grass fed animals in fields go through a cycle where methane goes into the atmosphere coverts into C02 and goes through photo synthesis which then goes back into the ground to fertilised the Plants and grass as a full circle. Also there's alot more industries making bigger impact on the earth than animals in the fields.
I am vegan but I completely agree with your line of thought. polarization is such a dangerous trend in the way we argue about things. One thing that made me think was that the more humane you treat an animal the more resources it will use. but blaming individuals for that instead of big corp is just another technique to defend capitalism imo.
The "both sides present faulty evidence" is an incredibly bad faith way to present this discussion. It will always benefit the status quo which in this case is the continued consumption of animal products. The evidence for and against veganism isn't evenly weighted. No scientifically serious person disagrees that animal products are bad for the planet, or that plant based diets when well planned are perfectly healthful. The moral argument for veganism is self evident. It's ridiculous to hand wave away by citing personal choice. Personal choice is never a justification if that choice harms others.
@dru Hi could you start a new comment thread with a compilation of all your points, so it's easier for me to keep track of who I've yet to respond to? Thanks.
@@MrTheoptimiser Hi. Could you start a new comment thread so I can better keep track of which conversation I've yet to respond to? Thanks.
Born in a family who ate meat atkeast twice a week, I was told that even as a toddler somehow my body would reject meat, even when my mother tried to camaflouge it in potatoes as such, growing up I started to completely detest any sort of meat because I couldn't stomach it. I did eat fish and eggs, because I seemed to feel alright consuming them, although it was once in a week or two. As an adult I was in prime health till I moved to Australia and being coerced by my then partner to start eating meat. I caved in. Ate meat. Seemed also viable option since to buy veggies we have to sell an arm and a leg here. It was hard atfirst for me to eat meat but slowly little by little I journeyed on thinking it was the more healthy route to bulk up and get strong. I was wrong. In the decade I have eaten meat I have becomes seriously depressed, has had several health concerns, packed on the weight contrary to the perfect physiuque I had, lost lot of hair, skin lost its glow, and I am just in my 30s. These are just few of the issues. I was always lethargic. Muscle aches etc. Anyway, it's been just under a year I am slowly goingback to being a vegetarian and I feel ane look younger than the past decade already. Still along way to go. I had lost my zest and will to live but now I feel energetic and is having an active life compared to the past several years on meat.
My take from personal experience - eating meat nearly destroyed me completely, both mentally and physically. Pay me a million bucks and now I wont touch meat again. My cholestrol was high and now its in perfect range and no more pre-dianetic either.
The stress and fear hormones of the last few minutes of the life of the animals before it gets slaughtered definitely deposits in the consumer of that meat. I am not even going to touch the topic of how cancerous meat consumption is because we have snowflakes on internet that will get offended. This is my personal view from my experience so I won't shy from speaking this truth, if it helps someone, why not.
So I am glad I am back on track and now started to look like a 21 yr old even in my late 30s, contrary to last year - overweight, depressed, low self esteem, and bunch of health issues.
Take from this comment what you will.
As an Australian unless you live in a seriously remote community it is far more expensive to buy meat than vegetables here.
No offense, but this kind of just comes across as a whole lot of cope. "I know it's a problem, but I don't really want to inconvenience myself."
What is this "problem" you're referring to exactly, in the statement "I know it's a problem"? I'm not sure what problem veganism is a solution to in your opinion.
@@ThoughtworthyCounnecessary death of animals, climate crisis, global food uncertainty. Large-scale adoption of veganism literally solves or greatly reduces all of these issues.
You're implying veganism is THE one and only solution to this problem. You can replace your statement with "large-scale reduction of animal products literally solves or greatly reduces all of these issues", and it'll still be true. Your attitude towards this issue is precisely the problem I spoke about by the end of the video. It's unproductive and irrational.
The only legitimate argument that came from your comment is the ethical issue around it, and sure we can talk about that. Putting aside the issue of waste that I already spoke about, I don't see animals being food for other animals as something unnecessary, therefore not amounting to a problem. Just curious, if you had a way to turn a lion vegan, would you do it? That would reduce what you call "unnecessary" animal suffering too.
The problem with adopting an ideology is that it can easily lead to cart-before-the-horse thinking, whereby everything is made to fit within a limited framework.
If u think it’s wrong to kill humans for a taste preference than why is it not wrong to do same to animals l. Name the relevant moral difference that makes it ok
@@veganix6757 My physiology demands animal products in order to thrive, therefore I choose what I deem the most appropriate sources. They are those outlined within the Holy Bible, which fully explains the unfortunate, human condition.
Without a supernatural arbiter, morals & ethics don't exist, as evolution generates only instinct (however complex). Atheists may do/eat whatever is tolerated by their societies, without facing "karma" or fearing eternal consequences (those will come!).
God says "Beef burger good".. "human steak bad".🙏👍
@dru My diet is based upon purely physiological results, rather than being dictated by the ideology of a cult.
@@veganix6757 Sapience.
@@MustardSkaven which means those who can think. This includes animals. So r u going vegan now
Well said. 👍🏻More empathy + Openness = A better world.
Definitely 🙌
This is such an awesome video! Thank you for putting this together. It summarizes my thoughts on so many subjects wonderfully!
It's our pleasure. Thank you!
Instant subscribe. I needed to hear a lot of this and it had nothing to do with veganism.
Thank you, and glad it resonated with you 🙌
Wonderfully reasoned commentary, and well filmed and edited. I truly appreciate you sharing your nuanced perspective.
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it 🙏
Long story short: the trait is consciousness.
(Context for anyone else reading, this is a continuation from another thread. To summarize:
*Vaelin* : “Name the trait” is the best argument against consumption of animals. What’s the difference between humans and animals, such that exploiting animals is okay but exploiting humans isn’t. Name the trait.
*TW* : Name the trait is a flawed line of argument. What’s the difference between mosquitoes and humans, such that it’s okay to exterminate mosquitoes just because they may carry infectious diseases, but not okay to do the same to humans? Or the difference between dogs and humans, such that it's okay to own dogs as pets. “Name the trait.”
We arrive at Vaelin’s answer: Consciousness)
Hi Vaelin. Is your answer specifically referring to mosquitoes? I believe most people, vegan or not, will agree that dogs have consciousness. In fact, there are also arguments of insects having consciousness.
Regardless, even if your answer is consciousness, does it mean you think it’s okay to exterminate people who may be carrying infectious diseases, as long as they are "unconscious"? e.g. people who are in a coma.
I hope by using your own “name the trait” argument against your line of thinking, it can help you to see its contradictions and inconsistencies.
@@ThoughtworthyCo OK, so a person who is in a coma can notice a bit of what is around him i thougt (idk correct me if im false)? Anyway: there ist still a probability that the person will gain consciousness again and the people who know and love this person suffer because of the death. OK and so we dont talk about different things: If i have to choose to kill the person who has eg a virus or let sth like COVID happen, i think then its totally reasonable to kill the person so hundreds of thousands of other people have to die. ( Im an utilitarian). And i think consciousness isnt specific for mosquitoes, but ist a good trait to messure, if you will, the moral worth of somebody (sounds a bit weird, but i dont know how to say it in a different way)
Edit: corrected typo
@@ThoughtworthyCo I explained my trait. So what is yours?
Completely agree with this video - and also with the idea that this is a corporate issue rather than an individual one. Not unlike other environmental issues, the individual gets the blame and the shame when it should be corporations.
Respectfully, I disagree. The individual is significant in driving the demand for alternative, plant-based foods. This is why plant-based milk is now everywhere, which is not due to corporations flooding the market with oat milk out of guilt or service to the community, but because they are responding to market demand where the profit lies.
The corporations are there because there are individuals willing to buy therr products. The responsibility is on the consumer as well as on the corporation.
@@teslakiteable FYI plants don't make milk. 🤷♀
@@therealjenniferrr We've used the term milk to refer to plant milks for centuries.
First of all: Happy to see, that you bring up this topic! 💚
I agree on the first point (health) and also the second is alright (however, eating vegan is one of the most impactful things you can do for the environment), but on the third (animal ethics) you are looking for excuses. Been there, done that, 7 years ago.
I have a masters in ethics from the university of vienna and can tell you, there simply are no good ethical counterarguments against veganism. It's like looking for reasons why it's ok to torture your dog for fun. It just isn't.
I'm not saying you have to be a perfect 100% vegan, but in everyday life just go for the vegan options. I personally do that and only eat animal food when it is a present or really hard to find something vegan.
You can do it. Just be honest to yourself and take it one step at a time 💪🏽 All the best to both of you 💚
Hey. Thanks for sharing your accreditation, interesting tidbit of information.
Anyway, I have no reason to argue against the ethics of veganism. If anyone chooses to go vegan because they think it's the moral thing to do, that's wonderful, I totally agree with their decision. I just don't think it's that black and white; I personally consume animal products because I don't think it's immoral. (Not sure the dog torturing thing is relevant in any way.)
Cheers!
Just watched _You are what you eat_ on Netflix. It was an eye opener 👀
Just watched videos from scientists or people who have real special interests on nutrition. Plus videos from the channel LivingWellAfterSchizophrenia. It was an eye opener 👀
I can not be made to feel guilty as they try to make this an individual problem when it's a corporation issue. Only 2 companies contributed to the pollution in America last year but they act like us switching off the lights and eating less meet will have a massive impact on the environment
The corporations are there because there are individuals willing to buy therr products. The responsibility is on the consumer as well as on the corporation.
I think the other context is that in the past (>250 years ago) farmed animals were used like oxen, to pull carts, plough paddy fields etc. etc. That's is why, beef used to be very expensive, because the animals had great economic value for their labour. The Latin word "capita" means a head of cattle, and is the base word for "capitalism".
But nowadays, since we have tractors and locomotives, so it is no longer economical to use oxen to do work. So in industrialised countries, the animals have no work to do so it becomes economical to kill them. And since there is a cultural notion that eating meat is festive or high class, as a country becomes industrialised, the consumption of farmed meat increases.
Regarding health, industrial animal farms use hormones, non-therapeutic antibiotics and so many other drugs to make the animals grow quicker. They even feed cows meat products! Aside from the direct implications on our health, it also breeds superbugs that are resistant to antibiotics.
Pretty much. Most of our issues in our society is because of the past and because we are SO afraid of letting go and accepting change.
Like alcohol, one of the worst drugs that exist, and its legal pretty much everywhere in the world. It would never have been approved if someone wanted to sell it in this day and age.
Brazilian beef farms ‘used workers kept in conditions similar to slavery’
Workers on farms supplying world’s biggest meat firms allegedly paid £8 a day and housed in shacks with no toilets or running water
your thoughts about few people doing perfect vs. many people doing better is one of my core arguments when discussing things like veganism, travel or consumption. to me, it is important to stay focused, open-minded but also forgiving and realistic. thank you!
Thank *you*!
I was vegan for 6 years, and I went back to being a vegetarian, very happily so. I'll have a vegan day every now and again if I feel like it, but never going back to vegan unless there is a catastrophe and I can only eat roots 😊 Do not feel disheartened by the negative comments, do NOT feel guilty if you eat meat. Guilt is a religious concept, a made up one just to make people feel bad about themselves, we do not need that in our lives. Also, we did not create nature the way it is, so if one day I'll need to eat meat again I will, and I'll be grateful to the animal for its sacrifice.
One thing I'll never do though will be eating synthetic meat for the sake of the planet. I really don't care. Or flour made out of insects as they're pushing us to do in Europe.
I'm italian mind you, and that to me is simply something unconceivable.
Hugs! ❤
Glad you found what works for you! 🙌
I didn't finish watching, but I need to share this thought:
Every change is difficult. And when people ask me if it's not difficult to be vegan, because, you know, you have less choice and so on. I'm like: Yes, that's true, I have less choice! And no: I have less choice - that's why it's easier!
100%. I ate so much unhealthy pastry and candy when I wasn't vegan. Now, there is very little options and I am so used to not eat unhealthy food that it just tastes absolutely disgusting and I can feel my body suffering from it.
@@Softlol I'm not vegan anymore because it's unhealthy. You will have a lack of choline, carnosine, beta-alanine (nope, beta-alanine is not found in asparagus, peas and mushrooms), carnitine, creatine, anserine, collagene, hydroxyproline, ...
I found out through an Austrian nutrionist. Also: I think all paediatric societys do NOT recommend a vegan diet for children.
Wish you all the best with your diet choice.
Peace from Berlin, Germany!
@ I think it’s false to say it’s unhealthy. It might be in your case. But there are countless of studies saying that it is healthy.
I have been vegan for 10 years now. The first 8 years I went to the doctors once a year to check if my body was good. Every single time they said I’m in perfect condition so I no longer bother going there for tests when its all good.
The only supplement I take is B12, everything else I get from food and drinks!
Really beautiful and powerful video!
I love your thoughtful approach!
Videos like this should be filmed at the slaughterhouse so we can see the reality of what is being defended here. So we can hear the screams of the animals and witness the dehumanisation of the people who have to kill them. Otherwise these videos are just propaganda
Thank you! 🙏
@@tessaruby2273 Go save them all then, don't waste your time here.
@@tessaruby2273 Only if vegan videos are filmed with close ups of animals/pest being shot on a crop or slowly dying after being exposed to pesticides.
Yes I agree that we should encourage people to reduce their animal consumption by 50%, but also their racism by 50%, and misogyny by 50% and let’s not forget rape etc …
Rights movements don’t work in percentages. For good reason.
I’ve been veggie/vegan for 15 years and it so simple and easy. It may be more difficult whilst travelling, but in the comfort of your home and with access to supermarkets it’s a breeze. And every meal is still a celebration, without a dead animal on the table. I could imagine in China it is even easier with the abundance of other fruits and vegetables.
Going vegan is probably the easiest and biggest impact one can have on the environment, plus if one chooses one can also turn the aircon down a degree or two on top of that 😉
So apply that to other rights movement. Should well tell racists only to be racist to certain races? Should we tell child abusers to only abuse on Monday’s?
First of all, unimportantly, we’re not from China in case that’s what you’re thinking 😅
So I supposed we should not encourage people to reduce their animal consumption?
Just so we’re on the same page, can we establish that you’re not arguing for the environmental and health aspects, but merely the moral position of consuming animal products?
Apologies, I thought you mentioned you were in China.
Of course we should encourage people to reduce, but to argue that vegans shouldn‘t encourage total abolition is naive.
I came to vegetarianism through animal rights at first. Veganism through seeing the broader animal rights aspect as well as health. And I remain vegan through all of this and the environmental aspect. We’re destroying the planet.
I'm not arguing that vegans shouldn't encourage total abolition. I think we made it clear in the video that we have nothing against veganism in principle. I genuinely encourage you to fight for what you personally believe is right. BUT, that doesn't necessarily mean what you're fighting for is going to be objectively right, and that's a very important distinction.
So just to confirm, do you think that you're objectively right in your judgment, and that if I think it's okay to consume animal products, that means I'm objectively wrong?
Do I think the general way animals are raised for consumption whereby profits are put ahead of animal welfare is right? I don’t.
Do I live somewhere where I have neither the financial means or access to a variety of other foods. I don’t.
Do I disagree with the World Health Organisation that red meat and processed meat are or likely to be carcinogenic. I don’t.
Do I need to eat animal flesh in order to survive? I don’t.
Is a dead animal a happy animal. No.
Am I morally right for not consuming meat. Yes.
I found this video interesting, but I felt that the overall message was “you can do a bit of everything, but reduce it” which in my opinion is an ineffective point to put across. I will be focusing on the ethics part of the video with my statements bellow.
I agree with your statement that personal philosophies are indeed derived from our own environment and experiences, there is also a collective philosophy - if we all saw a dog slaughter house the majority would be appalled ( vegans and non vegans) because we know that harming a pet animal is morally wrong. But where do we draw the line and why have we decided that it’s “ok” to harm certain animals but not others? We know and condemn hurting humans also. I saw you also mentioned hunting across the comments - I’m unsure if you referred to it as a “natural” occurrence the same as animals hunting each other - but more often than not hunting is seen as a “sport” or “leisure” in todays world.
However, in a live or die situation humans are programmed to survive - if you are in a position where you absolutely have no choice but to eat meat to survive that is just laws of nature, lucky most of us who can make the choice don’t live in that scenario.
I honestly believe that although someone can love animals while eating them, that is an hypocritical statement that doesn’t align with that persons acts. If you choose / select what animals are worthy of said love, that in my opinion is conditional love and not an overall love for animals. I hope that made sense.
Having said that I respect peoples choices and I respect your choices, point isn’t to preach but to gain further understanding of the mindset put through in this video, and hopefully, politely challenge it :)
Hey, thank you for engaging in this conversation in a respectful manner! 🙌
*if we all saw a dog slaughter house the majority would be appalled ( vegans and non vegans) because we know that harming a pet animal is morally wrong.*
I agree the response to seeing that scene would be morally inconsistent, because humans are irrational like that. The way I think about it is if I was transported to an alternate universe where cows and chickens are domestic pets, and instead dogs and cats are farmed for food, would I say for certain that they're "wrong"? Personally, I don't think I would, but either way that would be just my personal opinion and not a fact.
But I'm also curious, would you agree it's natural for us to, through the course of history, form different relationships with different animals? So we assign different weight and importance to certain animals, just like how we do the same with the people in our lives. For example, I may sacrifice a stranger's life to save my family's life without considering right or wrong. It's selective and conditional, but that doesn't mean I don't love human beings, no? What would you do in this situation? Do you think it's wrong?
@@ThoughtworthyCo Thank you for opening a discussion in a safe, non judgmental way. I believe in the alternative scenarios mentioned above, people would feel appalled by the same only to different animals. Mostly I feel it’s due to what has become socially accepted and what we as people perceive it’s “ok” possibly due to the point you brought regarding the different relationships we have had with animals.
However in a dire situation where one of your loved ones (human or animal) is in a life or death situation, it is normal to sacrifice the bond you have the least attachment with. Doesn’t make it morally right but instead, it was a survival necessity to protect one’s lives. I would still agree that you love humans but I would understand that you made a choice that has the best outcome for yourself- I would not consider it morally right, only that you did what you absolutely felt needed to be done.
On the other hand we don’t live in this scenario when it comes to eating other animals, and focusing on the ethical part of the discussion, there is no life or death choice to make - I believe that instead making a choice which causes harm to another sentient being purely because we can, is not showing love for animals.
People have asked me before “if you were in a deserted island with absolutely nothing to eat hut a cow would you eat it” and my reply always is “I am vegan, not an idiot” (excuse my language!). I don’t think I’m less vegan because I make a decision that will save my life as that is my human instinct - so I believe I’d be morally right? Absolutely not. Thank you for your reply back, it did make me consider things I otherwise wouldn’t
@DemonessDesignsCo A discussion is only as safe and non-judgmental as the participants allow, so thank you for being a great partner in this conversation! Not every corner of this comments section can be considered safe at the moment 😅
*making a choice which causes harm to another sentient being purely because we can*
Another commenter made a great point. Not donating all of your disposable income to save innocent starving children in poor countries is also a choice. It’s a choice you CAN make (just because) but it’s also one that will ultimately lead to more suffering of another sentient being. Which is why I personally, respectfully, think this line of argument may be going down a slippery slope.
*Mostly I feel it’s due to what has become socially accepted*
I totally agree. Do you think that can also be applied to why humans eating animals started to *feel* wrong in the first place. The reasons are emotional, but can it be inherently “wrong” though?
I believe a common argument is to liken eating meat to slavery: “Slavery used to be socially and culturally acceptable too, do you mean you think slavery is okay?”
My personal answer would obviously be no, it’s not okay. Whether it’s slavery 200 or 2000 years ago, we would still look back and say that's wrong. But would you say the people who ate meat 200, 2000 or however many years ago, have always been morally wrong? Is there an exact point in time where it became wrong?
Is it possible we’ve created such a distance between ourselves and the cruelty of the natural world, that we may have a distorted view on life and death? Death fuels life. Is it not because we're irrational and emotional that we feel bad for a gazelle being eaten by a lion?
With what we’ve discussed, would you agree morality is subjective? And do you think right and wrong is always binary?
E.g. You’ve made your choice to be vegan as you think it’s morally right; I can agree you made a morally right and respectable decision. I, on the other hand, made a choice to eat meat because I don’t think it’s morally wrong. Some vegans will disagree, they may think something has to be either right or wrong, black or white, and nothing in between. Arguments ensue, highlighting the polarization problem mentioned in the video.
2nd e.g. “I don’t think I’m less vegan because I make a decision that will save my life as that is my human instinct - so I believe I’d be morally right? Absolutely not.” But do you think you’d be morally wrong for eating the cow on the deserted island?
Once again, thanks for engaging in this conversation!
I respect every dietary choice. What I consider naive is the idea that agriculture is innocent. It's not, it harms our environment, causes deforestation, needs chemicals, is often bases on slavery conditions. My ethical and health choice? I only eat what nature provides spontaneously, zero-km food with no chemicals, from small small small businesses. Nothing else, ever. I spend a good amount of time reading science-based info. And I'm very happy with the results.
For sure. If you're in that privileged position to do so, then well done and good on you for following your principles 👍
@@ThoughtworthyCo To be honest, I'm not rich at all. I cut a lot of useless costs (fast-fashions, apps and digital services that have a monthly cost, etc.), expensive holidays (I prefer travelling in a sporty way), and believe me that that was more than enough to have the money to buy fresh food: in Italy, you can do it: we don't have huge salaries but also life is not absurdly expensive, especially healthy food. It's not cheap, but it's affordable if you're good at redirecting your life choices and priorities.
Completely understand; it's certainly doable in many parts of the world. Although it's probably also important to give a balanced take, as I'm sure there are many people, especially in certain parts of the world, who are not naive but simply lack the means or opportunities to make the "better" choices.
That said, being in a position to take action is one thing, actually taking action is another. That's why I mean it when I say good on you for following through and sticking to your principles!
@@ThoughtworthyCo yes, of course one of the great issues is the lack of means to eat properly. And I cannot see a solution for that, other than knowledge to better our choices within our means.
agriculture is a hell its made to make people dependent on markets all forest and environment been altered to ppl only be able to move and live on urban environments since all forests were once food jungles .... they altered things so much and yes agriculture and cattle creation are the biggest evil on this planet I am vegan very muscular I do lift 2 cement sacks 50 kg each I been on construction sights working with the tuffest guys and they always asked me for advice when they discovered I wasnt on a animal based diet ... yeah we should be more empaths , veganism have TONS of health benefits , this video is a joke u have a higher chance of not having a heart attack , cancer , many things ... Theres the unspoke mental benefits cause your mood IMPROVES A LOT , since happinnes is generated on the gut you cant be putting rotten stuff there everytime that will never digest cause humans are no lions u dont properly process meat thats why it get sstuck on u a long time before u p o o P it , and yeah .... this places are full satanists too thats why they abuse the animals on the factories so much
It was interesting reading through the resonable comments. I am not vegan nor vegetarian. I personally don't think it's a sustainable lifestyle nor is it good for the planet unless you're growing the majority of your food, sourcing it locally, or foraging it. Commercially grown produce in the States is as bad if not worse than CAFOs. I also wonder why some vegans are ok with eating bugs and plants when those are also alive.
Vegans don't eat bugs for starters. I care about plant lives to the extent that it's important to protect the environment (animals live there)however the trait of highest merit when you are considering moral worth is sentience. Animal's posess this, plants do not. Sentience means you are capable of subjective experience, and can feel pain and pleasure. You are right that plant agriculture is not perfect however veganism is the most practicable tool we have for harm reduction. Since most of us live in cities a lifestyle dependent on foraging isnt viable.
It simply isn't logically possible that animal agriculture is less harmful than plant agriculture. Consider that animals also require crops to grow to slaughter weight or be sustained to produce milk or eggs and then killed when they no longer excrete these goods for us efficiently. For a diet which includes animal products you are adding up all the harm that happens when we grow crops for them (80% of plant agriculture) + keeping non human animals in poor conditions then killing them versus just eating plants directly for human consumption. Ballpark 80 billion land animals are killed for human consumption each year. Compare that to 8 billion humans and it's no contest which diet causes less harm. If we can grant animals non commodity status we can then work towards better farming methods to reduce the damage we cause when we farm far crops. The ideology of veganism holds that non human animals are intrinsically valuable so to harm them unnecessarily, for instance for taste pleasure, is morally unacceptable.
Hope that makes sense.
@@MrTheoptimiser I recommend looking into the Secret Life of Plants. It's a very interesting book that delves into the possibility of the sentience of plants. They can potentially feel pain and even fear.
I agree that animals raised in confinement require crops to be grown for feed. I don't think industrial agricultural should be relied on to feed us. Their practices are inhumane and destructive to the earth. We need animals to help rebuild the soil so they should be integrated on farms. Unfortunately, I don't believe humans can survive, let alone thrive on plants alone. My best case scenario is giving animals the best life possible before taking their life with the utmost respect and gratitude.
@@lvs6775 As mentioned if you want to do the most to mitigate the damage you do to the planet the best course of action is to adopt a plant based diet because it requires magnitudes less resources (including plants) than a diet which includes animal products. On a planet with 8 billion people on it one way or another industrial agriculture is essential to feed everyone.
It would be interesting to think that plants are more complicated than we give them credit for, but the truth is while they do respond to stimuli, it is an algorithmic response analogous to an ai. They are not thinking feeling beings like animals. The vital moral difference between plants and animals is that one is sentient and the other is not.
I propose a trade. I will look into the Secret Life of Plants if you google "the oxford land use study". What that study demonstrates is that even if we are concerned with the feelings of plants it is better to have a plant based food system because livestock use much more plant agriculture than we do.
Thanks for the civil discussion, we both have more to learn.
I feel that this is true to many topics, not only veganism though. I also feel that people are obsessed with being right, and can't accept that other people might have different views/opinions, and that's ok. It's rare to be able to have deep conversation with someone nowadays, unbiased, without having to prove who are right, and just throwing and exchanging ideas and views. Don't let the haters get to you guys.
It's not about accepting, there's no such emotion. It's about how you react: with knowledge with kindness, or stress - hate and belittling.
@@maximgavrilov2977 how you react. indeed. that is a better word.
This video was spot on. I was vegan / vegetarian for 15+ years but my bloodwork clearly showed my lack of iron, protein, & zinc (& I was a good veg. by eating soy and beans for protein & taking tons of vitamins). I believe in ahimsa but at the end I almost killed both myself & my partner. People need to respect what their bodies are telling them & not being pressured when others shove it down their throats that they should eat a certain way. Thank you so much!
@dru The science is out... iron in animals is WAAAYYY more bioavailable in animals than the iron found in plants. B12 is only found in animal products, another nutrient most vegans/vegetarians are lacking. As for zinc, you won't inhibit absorption from animal products but things like beans that have zinc also have phytates which are plant antinutrients that WILL inhibit the absorption of zinc. Animal protein = much more dense compared to plant protein. Most people can only get vegan right if they supplement HEAVILY and make sure they are counting their nutrients, it's not something you can just wing and get right.
Same here. I'm mostly vegetarian now but if I need it I'll have fish once or twice a month. My health is the most important thing, sorry vegans and fish. I do not feel guilty one bit, that's life and my tolerance level for rude, aggressive vegans who hate mankind is below zero.
What needs to happen is to make resources accessible to thrive on a whole-food plant based diet. If there’s a will, there’s a way. But of course, there will be exceptions like health conditions. If I’ve identified my deficient nutrients then I’m able to solve it in my diet. It ain’t a walk in the park but it can be done.
A good diet isn't deficient in nutrients. Veganism has made many people very sick, I would not recommend it to anyone.
We went plant based 15 years ago. It took some adjustment to change our routine, but it is so much easier and simple now! And cheaper!! We are both happier and healthier than we were before. We get blood work done once per year and make any changes needed. Since we added B12 and D3, we've been perfect on our numbers. Mainstream information on diet is flawed in our opinion. The best choice is to take your health into your hands and listen to your inner voice.
It's also true that you develop more clarity and spiritual well-being, not eating animal products. We agree that everyone is different and has different ways of seeing things, different minds and bodies, and we honor personal choice. While we honor your choice, you don't sound happy about your choice, you sound like you are trying to justify it.
Thanks for sharing, and it's wonderful you managed to find out what works for you! 🙌
Actually, we've given it a lot of thought (even more so while making this video) and we're perfectly happy and at peace with our decision to continue consuming animal products :)
@@ThoughtworthyCo If you're happy and at peace about it, its only because you choose to remain ignorant about how the animal products get to your plate. Those doing your dirty work - slaughterhouse workers - suffer PTSD, nightmares, and drug and alcohol addiction. That's the emotional and spiritual reality of killing innocent animals who die terrified.
@@tessaruby2273 Hi can I invite you to start a new comment thread (if you have any arguments) so I can better keep track of all the ongoing conversations? Thanks.
Very well written and delivered. Great work.
Thank you, appreciate that!
Wow! Very thought-provoking.. Thank you for putting this out.
Thank you for watching! :)
i think mankind should take a few steps backwards,more farming less hustle and bustle,but is there time,the planet as we know it is dying
Would you mind googling "oxford land use study"? Vegans are pro farmer, but prefer plant farming, and hope those in animal farming will transition. There is a world of difference between crop agriculture and animal agriculture environmentally. Emissions, land use, and water usage would be much lower if we had a plant based food system. Switching to a plant-based food system could be a tool to help solve climate change. Thank you for your attention.
@@MrTheoptimiser That sounds wonderful in theory,but what would happen to all of the currently mesprodust animals? Would they live in peace until natural death? Where would all of these animals live? Or would they brutally be killed because there is no use of them anymore(thats how humanity works if you can't use it throw it away)
Probably some would be spared because of milk eggs and eccetera,but if we don't consume that,what would those animals purpose be,again for our humanity.
Even people,we have to give something to have the right to live,you want food,a roof under your head you have to work.
Then the question, where do you work?
For example i am a waitress,i make coffee for living,and i use dairy milk,i personally don't drink dairy milk and i would love to make coffee with non dairy milk,but my customers would rather go somewhere else where there is dairy milk,and then i would lose my job,if i lose my job i cant provide for my family.
And as for the environment there are many ways we can help,vegan or not,even some vegans do more damage to the planet than some non vegans.
I'm a pescatarian so is my husband and my child.
I was a vegetarian and a vegan,encopureting fish into my diet helped my metabolism,but that does not mean it would work for someone else.
@@simplytara97
Hi, thank you for responding with interesting queries. I've thought about veganism, and the issues that surround it in depth so I believe I have solid refutations to the objections you brought up. Please note that this is all in the name of education, not judgment. I was a part of the problem the majority of my life, so to make amends I try to take opportunities to educate. I hope you can see where I am coming from.
To address your first objection: The absolute bedrock of the vegan philosophy is that non-human animals have value in and of themselves, and that, because this is the case humans should disavow themselves of the attitude that non human animals should have commodity status. When we think in the human context this is intuitive. Is perceiving humans as having commodity status as happened in the human slave trade in the united states not inherently wrong? Does perceiving human beings as disposable as happened in the Jewish holocaust not morally abhorrent? Veganism is about extending the same moral consideration we already feel about humans to animals. It is the logical extension of the care and concern we already have for each other, because we can see that non human animals, experience pain, joy, and suffer much as we do.
What would happen to all the animals in a vegan world? Humanity artificially breeds into existence billions of animals every year for the purpose of consumption. If demand for their flesh and secretions ceased this would no longer be the case, thus there would be far fewer of the animals humans now view as food. This would free up space for wildlife to again prosper. To be honest I don't know exactly what would happen to the remainder of those animals, but my guess is some would still live in sanctuaries. To give a quick metaphor; I am taking a test I know 98% of the answers to. Even though I don't know all the answers I'm still taking that test. It's productive to still take the test because I will be given a passing grade.
I understand your concern about working in a non vegan world. Everyone has to put food on the table right? In my view working at a place that serves non vegan food is excusable behavior for a vegan assuming you don't consume those products yourself. What that business sells is not your responsibility. I don't think it is morally necessary, but if it were me I would want to find alternate employment where I wouldn't have to face things which are incongruent with my values such as serving animal products. However, working is necessary. If it is necessary it is justified, and I don't blame you for sticking with your current job.
On your point on environment. The solution is not either or. It is both and! The evidence in the study I cited shows that diet is the biggest component of an individuals contribution to climate change. We eat multiple times a day, so this makes sense right? This is what the study says:
"Specifically, plant-based diets reduce food’s emissions by up to 73% depending where you live. This reduction is not just in greenhouse gas emissions, but also acidifying and eutrophying emissions which degrade terrestrial and aquatic ecosystems. Freshwater withdrawals also fall by a quarter. Perhaps most staggeringly, we would require ~3.1 billion hectares (76%) less farmland. 'This would take pressure off the world’s tropical forests and release land back to nature,' says Joseph Poore."
Of course I agree that we should tread lightly in all ways that we can, but it does appear that the affect our diets have on the environment is enormous. The most pragmatic way to eat in this regard is plant based.
Interesting that fish keep being brought up in the comments of this video. You've probably heard that fish contain high levels of mercury, to the extent that women are advised not to eat them at all during pregnancy. There are safer ways to acquire omega-3. I take a multivitamin, but off the top of my head, you can also find it in seaweed. This is available in capsule form, which i think is pretty convenient. For the reason of moral caution I would also advice you not to eat them. Contrary to popular belief fish do in fact feel pain, and have demonstrated impressive comprehension. Fish have been seen to use tools, work in teams to hunt, and exhibit pain avoidance.
Since you have already demonstrated commendable curiosity I would like to make a video recommendation to you. "What PewDiePie Needs to Know About Fish" - Humane Hancock
I hope I adequately addressed your concerns. If you want to talk about this more I am more than happy to do so, but I don't like being gaslit. Please carefully consider all the new information I presented to you before you dismiss it. My knowledge is limited, so I am sure you can bring new things to the table which i haven't considered, but I believe what I presented has merit.
Thank you very much for having this conversation with me. Our world is interconnected so we must interact with each other with as much charitability and grace as possible so we can come up with the best solutions.
Anyway, best of luck, I really hope you will consider veganism as the important step that it is.
@@MrTheoptimiser I am grateful for every person who is willing and trying to make a change!
I don't agree that studies and practice can be related
studies frequently change,but i do believe we have to try every practice to learn from it.
As i said i did the vegetarian the vegan and the pescetarian diet,i followed every diet responsibly,and the results for me on every diet were differen,i canot speek for other peope, than for my self, i won't garantie a curtain diet is an "fits everbody diet"
because that wasn't the case for me it wasn't the case for manny people,i try and treat every life with gratitude and respect,and i do see all life equal,(except my daughter she for me is above everything and everyone🤫)
If my faith is to die by a mountain lion attack or a sting from a jelly fish that that will be my fate,i love every life,and think the planet is precious i wish for a better planet and am open to it,but unfortunately neither you or me can make that change we can tray.
The perfect solution as i said is to take a few steps back,no more travel less car usage, no more fashion,live the city life behind and go back to the country side.
But is that the life that everybody wants?
I love food sharing i love traveling a love learning from people history and culture,there are many solutions but it wont fit every lifestyle.
Thank you for you time i hope i didn't offend you that wasn't my attention truly
@At Tara's place you said some interesting things I'm interested in talking about when I have time but unfortunately right now i have to go to work. For now did you watch that video I suggested by any chance? And don't worry you didn't offend me, sorry if I gave you that impression!
No front. You made a video about it. I wanna answer. I don't think it's okay not to be vegan. I want to emphasise that I completely understand why people are not vegan and I empathise with each and every one of them/you. I have been there and ate my portion of meat and loved it.
But
Making a video in which ethics are boiled down to "it's everyone's personal choice" is not fair and misleading for one reason: the animals don't get to choose. We breed them into hell and kill them because of taste, tradition and convenience.
*Edited a typo
*We breed them into hell and kill them because of taste, tradition and convenience.*
Would you say it's okay if the animals are not bred by humans, but hunted in the wild?
@@ThoughtworthyCo Hey, thank you for replying!
While I'd say that it's less cruel, the animal still doesn't get a vote. It's also not necessary I would argue.
It's possible to get all the nutritions you need on a vegan diet.
Let me quote the American Dietetic Association (2016):
"It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases."
"These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes."
In addition, hunting is not always a clean kill. A shot may only injure, let's say a deer, making it limp for its life in absolute terror before receiving the second blow. Also, the animals that are being hunted aren't living in isolation. They are part of a family. Mourning is a thing in the animal kingdom. I don't think it's justified to cause such harm.
Therefore I would say it's not okay to kill an animal, even if it has been killed during a hunt. What do you think?
No problem. Love a good conversation when it can be had! I like that you seem genuinely interested in what I think (so far 😅) which can’t always be said with some comments.
Yes I agree animal products isn’t strictly necessary, which I believe is also mentioned In the video. I absolutely understand vegans’ view of “not causing unnecessary harm to animals”, that it’s “not justifiable to kill them for taste pleasures”, etc.
*Therefore I would say it's not okay to kill an animal, even if it has been killed during a hunt. What do you think?*
As you know I’m not vegan, it should not be a surprise that I think it’s “okay” to kill animals for food.
Here’s what I’m contemplating and trying to understand from vegans' perspective:
Are humans equals with animals? If we are, then wouldn’t “wolves eat deers” and “humans eat deers”, both be “animals eat animals”? Which can’t be inherently wrong.
Or are humans above animals? That would make more sense (if slightly arrogant) if we think we’re above the ecosystem, to reject participating in a completely natural, albeit unnecessary “animals eat animals”.
(I know every time one uses the word “natural” in this discussion, the point that there’s nothing natural about how we get our food on the table will get brought up. I understand. But I’m merely pondering the question if it’s *inherently* wrong to consume animals, not how we do it. I mean, I believe it can't possibly be a black and white answer, but some vegans seem to have it all figured out.)
What do you think?
I would love to go on but let’s keep each response brief as I’ve found it easier to keep a conversation on track. Maybe I’ll end with a couple of parting questions:
If lions had just enough intellectual capacity to farm gazelles, do you think they would they do it? If they do, does that make them wrong?
Just because we *can* do something, does that mean not doing it makes it morally wrong?
Curious what you think.
@@ThoughtworthyCo "Are humans equals with animals? If we are, then wouldn’t “wolves eat deers” and “humans eat deers”, both be “animals eat animals”? Which can’t be inherently wrong. "
Following this logic it would also be ok to eat other humans. Sure it's not inherently wrong?
@ONNO van Velzen I think you made a very good point! It took me a while to wrap my head around it.
As shocking as this is going to sound, as it did shock me when I first thought it out loud: You're right, to be logically consistent, we indeed can't say that a statement as simple as "eating other humans is inherently wrong" is true 😲
What are your views on morality being objective or subjective?
For context, my view is that morality is subjective. As mentioned in the video, most of us can agree on what is (feels) clearly right or wrong, but as you start adding conditions and nuance, we’ll inevitably start to have difference in opinion over where we should draw the line. For example, in a dire, famine situation, a gentleman consents to sacrificing himself so the rest of his family can eat. I would argue that from the gentleman’s perspective, “humans eating humans” become very morally right, and I would not dare say he’s wrong. Therefore, because morality is subjective, the black and white statement “to eat other humans is wrong” cannot be said with certainty. Does that sound unreasonable to you?
More importantly, humans as a species, are wise enough to form societies (quickly grabbed the definition of society: the aggregate of PEOPLE living together in a more or less ordered community). To protect our *people* (the same species) and maintain order in the community, it would make sense for us to collectively agree some things we do to each other will be CONSIDERED clearly wrong: cannibalism, murder, slavery, etc.
If we weren’t wise enough to come to this mutual agreement, it’s very unlikely we would be having this wonderful conversation today. Instead, the stronger one between us will be eating the other for dinner because of any disagreement, and we won’t have time to even think about morality, right and wrong.
(By the way, I haven’t gotten to know your point of view on whether humans are equals with animals.)
To summarize, yes, IF you believe humans are equals with animals, the statement “animals eating animals is not inherently wrong” still remains consistently true. And thankfully, humans as a species are wise enough to come to an agreement that some things, like cannibalism, along with murder and slavery, are clearly wrong to do to one another in our society.
P.S. I appreciate that gotcha tone, with that “Sure it’s not inherently wrong?” 🙂
Love this, thank you
Thank you for watching! 🙌
I'm currently reading an article about veganism for uni and it's really good (Our Animals, Ourselves - The Socialist Feminist Case for Animal Liberation, lux magazine) and it also talks about the problem of "annoying vegans". I would highly recommend it! :)
Thanks for sharing! 🙌
Being vegan is horrible for health (bread, pasta, fries etc are all vegan garbage. Being vegan is the worst thing for environment (poor quality plastic fake "leather" that pollutes at highest rate, overuse of farm land, killing natural ecosystems including wildlife with GMO crops, creating mountains of non-compostable plastic waste, using huge amounts of water and toxix chemicals for plant farms, etc). Being vegan is definitely not ethical, since you kill all animals with plastic waste and misuse of farm lands, flooded with toxins and being depleted fast. Please, don't repeat vegan ВS, there are too many idiоts who have zero clue how DAMAGING & UNETHICAL veganism actions is. Aside from being a wrong diet for humans. We are omnivores and must eat 10-15% of animal products to be healthy, since we need certain amino acids and essential fatty acids, none of us could create internally and those must me consumed. Being overweight or obese is selfish and steals resources from people in need. So, lose the fat, don't be so egocentric! Also, enough with shopping addiction and getting into debt! That's way better than being vegan 🙄 I hope these logical points help you understand evil veganism better.
I agree with what you discussed in this video and I think it comes down to the point that people should do what is best to their body, to be open minded and also a little more kind towards others. I became vegetarian about 15-16 years ago, mainly for ethical reasons that later added a mindset change towards environmental causes too. I've tried becoming a vegan as well, but for me that might take another decade to get there... never the less I firmly believe that we should be open minded towards each others food choices. I have never made anyone uncomfortable just because they ate meet in front of me and I have never been treated badly because of my food choices either. Will I ever turn vegan... maybe, but what I will keep continue is that treating people with kindness and with an open mind.
Kindness and an open mind, 100% agree! 🙌
I hope you don't buy plastic clothes labeled "vegan", those are killing wildlife faster than eating it.
Veganism is about how animals are treated though. So the issue is always going to be whether cruelty to animals is worth every meal, clothes, entertainment. Focusing on health is a distraction. There are animals that are less sentient for example, like bivalves, that if you really believe that you must eat some animals, be specific about which ones are better to eat.
I think I would actually like to know your opinion about the ethical aspect. I understand the frustrations about polarized views but I guess the vegans that you are referring to would want to know the answer to this question: What is your ethical case for eating animal products?
Hi, thanks for the question. If I'm interpreting your question correctly, then my answer is that I don't think I have (nor do I need) a case *for* eating animal products. I consume animal products not because I think it's morally right, but because I don't think it's morally wrong.
The question itself is a big and general one, so I can only give a big and general answer for now. If you wade through the comments, you'll find a couple of good conversations that elaborate further on the topic; I could direct you to them if you wish. But if you have any further questions or specific objections, let me know and we can chat about it too. Cheers!
@@ThoughtworthyCo Great Response.
As you mentioned, everyone's morality compass is different, but if you trim the fat and whittle it down, the philosophy can be summed in one sentence:
If you think it's wrong to harm sentient animals, then you already believe in being vegan.
For me, the physiological benefits of a WF omnivore diet have kicked the ethical question off the table!
@dru Increasing my animal/plant ratio, from very low to moderate (& ditching beans), saw off bloating, gas, indigestion, heartburn, fatigue, dizziness, pins & needles, knee joint ache, skin sensitivity to sunlight.. a transformation which I wasn't expecting! My inefficient, gurgling, steam engine is now a smooth & silent, electric motor.
@dru Over the 4yrs+ since I began my ideal, WF omnivore diet, I've been digging into all things "vegan" & I see nothing, other than ideology, supporting the notion of human herbivores.
I could, no doubt, survive on a synthetically supplemented, 100% PB diet but choose to thrive on what I deem to be my species specific diet.
I'm not prepared to sacrifice my well-being for "the animals". Make of that what you will.
@dru I don't need expert input when I've found my own solution. Seems very obvious that I'm not a herbivore.
@dru I stated that I could survive exclusively PB but choose to thrive. The reason I explored veganism is precisely because I wasn't attached to eating animal products. I've simply let physiology dictate.
What vegans forget: Bioavailability of certain nutrients in a vegan diet
just reduce your intake, and eat less red meats and more fish.
humans are still omnivores and certain nutrients are mainly coming from meats/fish,
a simple well known example is 1g of protein in animal products vs 1g of protein in vegan products,
in a lot of cases you would need 2-5x the intake thanks to bioavailability being much worse in most vegan products
Many people consume easily 300g of animal products per day, and liters of milk per week..
just replace your milk with soy/oat milk and reduce your animal products to about 100-150g per day on average, and go multiple days without meats replacing it with tempeh for example
Veganism is one extreme, the average diet is the other extreme, go with the middle ground, where you only eat as much animal products as you need.
personally I consume maybe 600g of meat/fish a week, and drink oatmilk and eat soy yogurt
and because I am not vegan I can still go out every so often with friends/family, or eat at their places and not have to go all "but I am vegan so I can't join you"
my wallet is also very thankful for not going vegan.
If you have tried veganism you will know it isn't extreme lol. Again, is it more extreme to support the killing of innocent peacful animals or to eat only vegetable? What is more extreme? KILLING or eating plants?
Unless we use the word extreme differently, there is no reality where eating a plant is more extreme than killing and eating an animal.
A beautifully neutral and mature message. Well done 👏✌️
Thanks! 🙌
This is Gonna b so Insightful🔥🔥🔥👍n Happy Saturday😀….
I am not sure where u based at cause I am new to this channel , but I tell you here in BRazil there are actual humans being enslaved inside almost every beef farm here the companies have milllions in debt due to laws regarding enslavement of humans .... I have also worked on a farm before yes , I Can tell the majority of people on farms and who live close to it , have a multitude of diseases due to the cattle creation
I think its a personal decision to go vegan or eating meat. I would not force someone to be vegan. I respect your decision to eat meat and I hope others also respect people who choose to be vegan. I hope and believe each person trying their best to help the earth and improve to be better. To have an open minded to see and learn more about new information is always good for oneself. I hope we all can learn from each other’s perspectives.
If everyone was this respectful, the world would be a much more pleasant place. Thank you for that!
Being vegan is horrible for health (bread, pasta, fries etc are all vegan garbage. Being vegan is the worst thing for environment (poor quality plastic fake "leather" that pollutes at highest rate, overuse of farm land, killing natural ecosystems including wildlife with GMO crops, creating mountains of non-compostable plastic waste, using huge amounts of water and toxix chemicals for plant farms, etc). Being vegan is definitely not ethical, since you kill all animals with plastic waste and misuse of farm lands, flooded with toxins and being depleted fast. Please, don't repeat vegan ВS, there are too many idiоts who have zero clue how DAMAGING & UNETHICAL veganism actions is. Aside from being a wrong diet for humans. We are omnivores and must eat 10-15% of animal products to be healthy, since we need certain amino acids and essential fatty acids, none of us could create internally and those must me consumed. Being overweight or obese is selfish and steals resources from people in need. So, lose the fat, don't be so egocentric! Also, enough with shopping addiction and getting into debt! That's way better than being vegan 🙄
If you want to end mistreatment of animals in animal agriculture, you cannot support it at the same time. That never leads to the abolition of these industries.
The problem is that I'm not a herbivore.
@@Unmasking_Viandalisme or an obligate carnivore. There is no excuse.
@@nullethosechoes I fare much better with animal products in my diet & there's an end to the matter.
@@Unmasking_Viandalisme sounds like an excuse to me, and that's my opinion you won't change.
@@nullethosechoes I'm satisfied with the objectivity of my dietary experiments, so your opinion is irrelevant.
It’s interesting hearing some vegans proclaim how they’re making a positive contribution to the environment by not eating meat and dairy but they’re more than happy to drive around in their large 4 wheel drives with leather seats.
So, those are not vegans. To be vegan is to not use anything unessential from animals. Ex. Some computer parta are made from bone. Vaccines are tested in poor animals. But while we need to use those, we want to research ways to stop all form of animal abuse. Vegans dont use leather, we have synth leather instead.
And you know what they're driving how?
If there is no need to cause suffering to another sentient being to thrive, just don’t. There can never be a humane way of taking the life of someone that doesn’t want to die.
There's so much nuance to it since so much of our modern life is unnecessary, but causes suffering. Happy to talk about it if you're up for it, or I can direct you to another interesting (and long) conversation in another part of this comment section.
@ agreed, but you will realize that after cutting through all the nuances, being vegan is the most impactful thing you can do to minimize suffering to sentient beings.
You may (or may not) be right, but in no way does that point to the conclusion that eating animals is wrong. If your objective truly is to minimize all suffering to sentient beings, your life would look very, very different.
@@ThoughtworthyCo let me know again if it is right or wrong if you are the animal being slaughtered. Being vegan is one of the more impactful thing that we can do. The objective is to have more compassion, not to live on air.
Well, if I’m an animal that doesn’t know the difference between right and wrong, then there is no right or wrong if I'm eaten by another animal(such as humans). Not sure what you’re asking exactly.
I made a joke comment about this earlier, but this video has stuck with me as I’ve gone about my day - so I rewatched it just now.
The message seems to be that veganism is a personal choice, and the creators believe that we should each respect that choice. I’m completely in agreement!
However, I didn’t learn why they (the two creators on this channel) aren’t vegan.
I was a strict vegan for almost a decade. I currently have a diet that is most easily described as pescatarian, but on most days looks more like a vegan diet.
Why am I not vegan? Because I eat what I want to eat.
See how easy that question was to answer? The creators of this video spent almost 8 minutes not answering the question, as it’s suggested in the title they will be. I suspect their real answer to the question is the same as mine.
They state in the description or a pinned comment that they’re intentionally not discussing research or statistics. Raising health (beyond the individual) and environmental impacts of a vegan diet are essentially pointless without considering scientific research. They suggest relaying on common sense to inform this discussion rather than scientific data. My common sense can’t tell me much about the environmental impact of gargantuan amounts of cow farts.
I guess I’m just annoyed that the title of this video suggested it was something it’s not, and the creators spent the video dancing around a topic that doesn’t really have anything to do with veganism - they just wanted to talk about respecting personal choices.
As suggested in the video, there are a great number of vegans here on the old internet that are huge jerks - and even though they’re jerks they typically have pretty good arguments that are much more informed and clearly communicated than this video. If the purpose was to answer those folks’ arguments, I don’t think it’s doing it.
Alternatively, I’m old and I forget that a large portion of social media content has the exclusive purpose of getting attention and engagement. If that’s the case here, I’m happy to help! 🙃
I can see where you’re coming from. In a way, the video was crafted like that by design. Let me summarise the flow of logic to see if it would make more sense to you.
Health: If someone has fish once a week, it’s not going to be worse for their health. Therefore, veganism is unnecessary for health.
Environment: If someone has fish once a week that they caught themselves, it’s not going to be worse for the environment. Therefore veganism is unnecessary for sustainability.
I think we made it clear in the video that we’re not against veganism. But to say veganism is *necessary* for the above reasons; would you say you agree with that? (Probably not since you’ve already mentioned you stopped being vegan.) Do we need “science” to prove that for us?
All that’s left is the ethical consideration. A conversation very worth having. But discussing our moral point of view will require more than just a single video to do. It requires back and forth, and the challenging of beliefs, like you see in the comments. Maybe I can simply say “Basically, I don’t think it’s wrong to consume animals for food, full stop” in the video, but what good is that going to do?
So for conversation’s sake, do you think it’s wrong to consume animal products?
@@ThoughtworthyCo I appreciate your response - this does clarify your process, but allow me to answer your questions along with some counterpoints.
Health: I agree, fish once a week isn't likely to be worse for one's health - it will likely be better! For the sake of argument, if a person has fish only once a week, why have fish at all? (While this is an ethical question, rather than health-related) - Is the life of a fish worth your enjoyment or a minimal health benefit?
Environment: I completely agree that a person eating one fish per week that they have caught themselves likely has zero environmental impact. However, this doesn't reflect my own meat consumption, and I'd speculate that it doesn't reflect the majority of meat consumption for people in "developed" parts of the world. I live in the US, and a substantial portion of our culture reacts to the idea of veganism with offense & mockery - they would not consider giving up eating meat (or limiting their consumption to one fish per week) and consider anyone who does to be a fool. As you point out, eating meat is no longer a special occasion, but more of an expectation at meals - with industrial farming and animal agricultural industries scaling up to meet the demand. We need data to have an informed discussion on the environmental impact of those industries, and how widespread adoption of veganism could potentially lessen that impact. Individual choice matters here, but reducing the environmental aspect of this discussion to one person's choices ignores the larger problem. What has been your experience with the frequency of meat consumption with your family, friends, and neighbors - and where does the meat usually come from?
Is veganism necessary for a healthy diet? No - but it's a good place to start. Additionally, I don't believe eating animals and animal-products is necessary for a healthy diet for most people.
Is veganism necessary to improve our environment? No - but it may be highly beneficial. I believe that if humans in large numbers eliminated animal consumption from their lives, this would decrease the need for animal agriculture and factory farming - leading to an improved environment.
Do we need "science" to prove this? Yes, for humans (especially those with no personal motivation) to understand the impact that eating animals has on the human body and that farming animals has on Earth's environment - and then choose to change their behavior - we need science to provide some evidence. I don't believe in proof, only evidence ;)
Ethics: Indeed, this is complex, nuanced, and emotionally charged - I understand why you did not explore this more in the video. However, to those with strongly held beliefs that eating animals is a moral offense - I think you have communicated that “Basically, I don’t think it’s wrong to consume animals for food, full stop” even though you didn't use those words. Some people you will converse with here believe that an individual's choice to eat animals affects other people, animals, and our environment to an extent that it cannot be dismissed as "personal choice" - and many of them are going to have sound arguments for that position. Maybe the person who thinks this way is illustrating your point about polarizing issues by refusing to acknowledge a viewpoint they don't agree with - or maybe they're right.
"do you think it’s wrong to consume animal products?" No.
I believe this has to be my answer because, as you read, I eat animals even though I believe that the "right" choice or the "best" choice for humans is not to eat animals unless it is necessary for health or survival. Health or survival are not currently my reasons - instead my reasons are complex, nuanced, and emotional :) I can summarize by saying that after some unexpected life changes I thoughtfully and intentionally chose to begin eating certain animal and animal-product foods again simply because I wanted to. I've found the choice itself personally meaningful and enriching, while also enjoying eating eggs and fish. Admittedly, this is a contradictory position - but for now I am comfortable in that discomfort. The morally unambiguous people I mentioned in the paragraph above will likely not appreciate this.
To me, this video did a good job of illustrating that perhaps problems don't require "all-in" solutions and that learning from opposing viewpoints is more valuable than flatly dismissing those we don't agree with - but it didn't tell me why you aren't vegan. I don't think you owe specifics to your viewers, but I don't think you should have included "Why We're Not Vegan" in the title.
I read elsewhere in the comments that the two of you have studied nutrition recently, and I'd be interested to know more about what you learned and how that influenced your diet, regardless of whether or not that influenced your thoughts on veganism - though I understand if you choose not to explore this with a video.
Lastly, I have enjoyed your videos for some time now, and I'm especially impressed with your desk setups. :)
It sounds like for the most part, we can agree that veganism is not necessary for health or environment, at least in theory. That statement, as far as we know, is fundamentally true if we don’t introduce additional conditions to the equation for now(e.g. complaints about how that doesn’t reflect real world consumption habits, or problems with the practices and processes, etc.). I believe your point is that even though it may not be necessary, being vegan can and will have a very positive impact for the environment and to a lesser extent, health as well. We also explicitly agreed with that in the video, so we should be on the same page there.
*What has been your experience with the frequency of meat consumption with your family, friends, and neighbors - and where does the meat usually come from?*
I get your point with this question, but that’s also something we’ve addressed in the video, which is an issue with real world practices and processes.
*RE: Science and evidence*
I have to make it clear again, I do believe in and trust science. But I think our opinions differ in the usage of evidence as a communication tool. I don’t think everyone approaches decision making with hard numbers like you (or myself, to a smaller extent) do. As a content creator, I’m thinking about how I can best communicate my ideas to the majority of my audience. My goal is to bring progress. What’s something we can all rally behind? I believe for the most part, I did a passable? job that overall, did more good than bad.
You said this in another comment: "They’ve intentionally left evidence based science out of the discussion, rendering this video kind of pointless."
The point of my video like I said is not to be “right”. I think using the so-called “evidence-based” approach would not have been helpful to the message of the last chapter in particular.
Look at other pro-vegan or anti-vegan comment threads that fall back on arguing with "mine vs yours" evidence. What have they achieved? All I see is more divide. If the goal is to feel good by feeling "right"? Great. If the goal is to push more people away from and resent a well-intentioned movement? Also accomplished, well done.
*RE: Ethics*
Thank you for sharing your journey and experience. I think all of our reasons are complex, nuanced and emotional :)
*Is the life of a fish worth your enjoyment or a minimal health benefit?*
I get the point of questions like these, but frankly and respectfully, I don’t think they’re that productive. If one answers yes, they’ll look like an evil person. If one answers no, then why will they consume animals. Arguably, the question was designed in bad faith, meant to play on emotions and make a person look and feel bad, but not necessarily helping them to get closer to their personal answer of whether it's immoral to consume animals.
Do you think it may be because of the distance we’ve managed to create between ourselves and the natural, cruel sufferings of the world? Why do we feel bad for a gazelle that’s being eaten by the lion?
Can one not feel pleasure, but also gratitude and remorse at the same time when consuming animals? Maybe having a little remorse as one of many other feelings doesn’t make it “wrong”? Complex, nuanced and emotional. I think it’s such a fascinating subject.
*RE: The rest of your comment*
I think the rest of what you said is completely fair. I hope I didn’t miss out anything, I left your comment to the end because it was so long 😅 that I almost forgot to respond.
I know you started with one joke comment, but I’m glad we ended up having this conversation. Anyway, thanks for supporting the channel all this time!
@@ThoughtworthyCo Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply - it took me a few days to find the time to absorb it. I'll try to be brief and concise - as I respect the amount of time and energy you've spent reading and responding here! Any questions below are simply food for thought.
Re: Health & Environment - I can't wholeheartedly agree that we're on the same page, because I believe the critical element of these factors is how our collective actions influence the systems that have developed to meet our needs/desires. Reducing these factors to the actions of the individual, and reducing the standard to "necessary", results in too small a scope. Broadly, a choice does not have to be "necessary" or "essential" in order to the be the "right" choice or the "best" choice.
Re: Evidence - I see your point where evidence is not useful for the purposes of the video, and I agree that blunt argument may most often have the opposite effect that some intend. I believe that some pro-vegan folks wield evidence so heavily because their personal experience was that the evidence was eye-opening and life changing for them - so if they could only make you see, then you'd understand! ;) Again, I believe evidence is a critical part of the discussion, and to exclude it is an error - but you have to draw the line somewhere - you didn't intend to make a 12-part series on the history of veganism (though, perhaps this is upcoming).
Re: the life of a fish - the question wasn't intended in bad faith, but was perhaps poorly placed in the discussion. I don't think you or anyone else should feel bad for eating a fish (I do not). My standard for "evil" behavior requires much more devious decisions. I think what I was getting at is "why eat the fish at all"? If the fish and I share an existence here, we're made of the same "stuff", we share some of the same anatomical traits - I'm arguably more intelligent than the fish, stronger than the fish - just because I can eat the fish, am I justified in doing so if I do not need to?
Re: the natural world - I agree, this is a fascinating subject. I also agree that the divide created in modern society between food in the field and food on the plate is significant. I'd say it's not a loss of gratitude and remorse, but instead a loss of the full spectrum of gratitude - not just life and death of an animal, but the growth and harvesting of plants we eat is also significant and beautiful.
Apologies for the amateur philosophy - I think as humans we're fully part of the natural world, but are obviously unique in it. We have cycles of destruction and progression - but we haven't evolved so that we can better "us" without a cost to "them". While some will say that this is just the way the world is - the lion eats the gazelle, and we are part of that world - that sounds very bleak to me. If humans continue as we have - doing essentially the same things with nicer toys - this seems pointless - more than surviving, but not much more. I believe we can be better, but it will require an evolution of thought and behavior that leads to humanity thriving without reliance on the suffering of others. While that is primarily in reference to human suffering, I think abandoning reliance on animal suffering is inseparably linked - again, humans are part of the natural world, but unique. Not something I expect to see in my lifetime, but I imagine it's possible. The lion should still eat the gazelle, I would not recommend disrupting that process.
Thanks again for taking the time - I'm also thankful for our conversation, I've enjoyed it!
No problem. I’ll still leave my thoughts although it’s perfectly understandable if you leave the conversation as it is after that. I’ll try to avoid posing questions so you don’t feel obliged to respond 🙂
*I can't wholeheartedly agree that we're on the same page*
I think the problem with these polarizing topics is that emotionally, it can feel dishonorable to agree with the opposing view, even when we logically agree. The statement we were discussing was “Is it true that veganism is not necessary for the good of the environment”. Not whether it’s the right or best choice, just whether it’s the necessary choice. Which you've essentially agreed it's not necessary.
I understand your point about our collective impact. But to say it IS necessary, is to say even if everyone in the world who can be vegan has converted, one man catching and eating a fish once a week is still an environmental problem. Because then you can shift the arguments to “what IF everyone does the same? BUT when he eats one fish, he’ll crave a second fish. etc.” All the unnecessary and irrelevant buts and ifs.
In a time where it’s so hard to agree on anything, we should take the win when we can find something we obviously, logically agree on. To agree is not to concede defeat. Of course, I’m not just directing that at you; it’s the same for all of us.
*Broadly, a choice does not have to be "necessary" or "essential" in order to the be the "right" choice or the "best" choice.*
You’re totally right, a choice does not have to be necessary to be the best choice. But if a choice IS necessary, there wouldn’t be a need to find the right or best choice, because it’s the ONLY choice. One choice is no choice.
*I see your point where evidence is not useful for the purposes of the video, … … to exclude it is an error”*
Not sure how to remedy this. I think it’s an extension of what has been mentioned above; maybe it’s just incredibly hard to explicitly agree with something said by someone with opposing views.
*the question wasn't intended in bad faith, but was perhaps poorly placed in the discussion.*
Oh no I definitely didn’t mean that you asked the question in bad faith, apologies if that was how it came across.
I’m sure you didn’t “design” the question, maybe you read something similar somewhere or someone posed this question to you in the past. What I meant was that whoever came up with the original: “Is the life of an animal worth the few seconds of pleasure?”, framed the question in bad faith. It’s no doubt an effective, manipulative question, which is why it would linger in our minds. But to take a basic necessity, “food”, and all the culture that has turned sustenance into something “pleasurable”, and reducing it to simply “a few seconds of pleasure” is incredibly disingenuous, in my humble opinion.
The question was designed to convert, not to seek truth or clarity. I know teenage me would have succumbed to the question, as I would have been particularly emotionally vulnerable at the time.
*just because I can eat the fish, am I justified in doing so if I do not need to?*
How can we live if we have to morally justify every single action we choose or choose not to do, just because we can. Am I morally justified to go on a vacation, when I can instead volunteer and save lives at a poor village? I choose to consume animal products not because I think it’s morally right, but because I think it’s not morally wrong.
*Apologies for the amateur philosophy*
No worries, we’re all amateurs, I’m no philosophy major myself 😅 But I guess we can call it a day on the philosophical side of the debate for now, before we make the conversation indigestible. 🤝
I just want to end by going back a little and referring to a statement in your previous comment :*”a substantial portion of our culture reacts to the idea of veganism with offense & mockery”*
I frankly believe that is not the case. We must remind ourselves that the loudest and most obnoxious do not represent the majority. The “anti-vegans” are a consequence of the actions of “annoying vegans”, and these two groups of voices are the only ones we hear because they shout the loudest. We can’t condone the actions of either extremes, and like we said in the video, it’s not about who's right or wrong. More importantly, the “annoying vegans” are undoing the good work of the mature and respectful vegans before them.
My point is that to stop causing divide, we should stop designing questions in bad faith, finding it dishonorable to agree on a truth, and instead take the win collectively wherever we can, so we can start doing better.
Thanks for your time, and I wish you all the best!
Yes it is necessary, and yes you should feel guilty. Cheers 👍
I politely disagree. Cheers 🙌
Nope! Being vegan is horrible for health (bread, pasta, fries etc are all vegan garbage. Being vegan is the worst thing for environment (poor quality plastic fake "leather" that pollutes at highest rate, overuse of farm land, killing natural ecosystems including wildlife with GMO crops, creating mountains of non-compostable plastic waste, using huge amounts of water and toxix chemicals for plant farms, etc). Being vegan is definitely not ethical, since you kill all animals with plastic waste and misuse of farm lands, flooded with toxins and being depleted fast. Please, don't repeat vegan ВS, there are too many idiоts who have zero clue how DAMAGING & UNETHICAL veganism actions is. Aside from being a wrong diet for humans. We are omnivores and must eat 10-15% of animal products to be healthy, since we need certain amino acids and essential fatty acids, none of us could create internally and those must me consumed. Being overweight or obese is selfish and steals resources from people in need. So, lose the fat, don't be so egocentric! Also, enough with shopping addiction and getting into debt! That's way better than being vegan 🙄 Shame on you!
@@mikesamovarov4054 1. Which amino acid is only found in animal products?
2. Why are you not critical of meat in the supermarket wrapped in plastic? Or milk in plastic bottles...
3. You do realise (according to FDA) that over 95% of livestock eat GMO crops? Can you imagine the cost of meat and dairy without GMO crops?
No, it's not and no guilt whatsoever. I eat what I want, deal with it.
@@Prizzy999 it's not what you eat that bothers us, it's WHO you eat. There's zero necessity for humans to eat flesh or secretions from sentient beings. So of course an action which infringes on the rights of others for that purpose will be judged as bad. Get with the program.
Orthorexia Nervosa
1. The more vegetables and fiber in the diet, the healthier. The least cholesterol and saturated fats in the diet the healthier. The least read meat, the healthier. This is evidence-based science, and it’s what official guidelines in different countries agree with. There is no debate about this, except for misinformed people.
2. Yes, being vegan is the best option for the planet.
3. And yes, veganism is respecting animlas.
Look, it’s okay not to be vegan because you don’t want to. But don’t bring down all the clear advantages of veganism just to make yourself feel better.
And the argument of reduction, although is partially logic, is at the same time nonsense. The fact that you eat less meat does not change the fact that you are still mistreating and killing animals unnecessarily.
A video like this is totally out of place and inappropriate.
Omnivore diets were fine until seed oils & refined/processed foods appeared. I fare worse when the (WF) animal/plant ratio is very low, so animal products are both species specific & necessary.
See the creator’s pinned comment. They’ve intentionally left evidence based science out of the discussion, rendering this video kind of pointless.
They made an 8 minute video illustrating why we should respect one another’s choices, (which I agree with!), but gave no specific reasons why they themselves aren’t vegan.
They didn’t want to discuss veganism, they wanted to tell you they know the reasons for veganism are sound, but those reasons aren’t enough for them to eat a vegan diet (without actually saying that).
Frankly I don’t care whether these folks are vegan, I just don’t understand the point of this video. It’s could have just as easily been about whether you think wearing jeans and sandals in public is appropriate, and then not actually weighing in on this issue.
(In case you’re wondering, the jeans/sandals combo - while undeniably comfortable - cannot justifiably be worn in public.)
Sorry, there’s a lot to unpack here.
*The more vegetables and fiber in the diet, the healthier.*
That’s an exaggeration that clearly can’t be right. Are you saying a Cabbage Soup diet is healthy?
*The least cholesterol and saturated fats in the diet the healthier.*
Another over-generalisation. Anyway, current consensus is that dietary cholesterol doesn’t make a big difference to most people’s blood cholesterol. But even then, that’s just the current consensus which can shift in the future.
*This is evidence-based science, and it’s what official guidelines in different countries agree with.*
I'm very ready to admit that I don't know all the answers, but the fact that you can say all these with such certainty is alarming. We’ve established that the things you said can’t exactly be considered evidence-based science. And also, just because they’re in different countries’ official guidelines, doesn’t mean it’s a solved equation. Guidelines all over the world have changed significantly over the years, and will continue to change. They’re not invulnerable to mistakes.
Note: we’re not nutritionists/dietitians (educated guess is that commenter isn’t either), but we did go back to school for a year to study nutrition science. Not that it really matters, just want to let anyone reading this know that this discussion about nutrition is by no means between two experts.
*Yes, being vegan is the best option for the planet.*
How are you able to say that with such certainty? Are you saying that it’s a problem for the environment if someone has a predominantly plant-based diet, but have some fish (that they caught themselves) once a week?
*But don’t bring down all the clear advantages of veganism just to make yourself feel better.*
So...what clear advantages? At the end of the day, I believe what you’re arguing for is simply the moral right and wrong of consuming animal products. I believe that’s a conversation worth having and I would be delighted to have it with you. But…
*A video like this is totally out of place and inappropriate.*
I’m not sure how productive such a conversation will be when it’s so emotionally charged. Just because I’m very likely to disagree with your moral point of view, doesn’t make this video out of place or inappropriate.
Being vegan is horrible for health (bread, pasta, fries etc are all vegan garbage. Being vegan is the worst thing for environment (poor quality plastic fake "leather" that pollutes at highest rate, overuse of farm land, killing natural ecosystems including wildlife with GMO crops, creating mountains of non-compostable plastic waste, using huge amounts of water and toxix chemicals for plant farms, etc). Being vegan is definitely not ethical, since you kill all animals with plastic waste and misuse of farm lands, flooded with toxins and being depleted fast. Please, don't repeat vegan ВS, there are too many idiоts who have zero clue how DAMAGING & UNETHICAL veganism actions is. Aside from being a wrong diet for humans. We are omnivores and must eat 10-15% of animal products to be healthy, since we need certain amino acids and essential fatty acids, none of us could create internally and those must me consumed. Being overweight or obese is selfish and steals resources from people in need. So, lose the fat, don't be so egocentric! Also, enough with shopping addiction and getting into debt! That's way better than being vegan 🙄
I was vegan for 6 years. It was horrible. There is nothing good about eating industrial tofu and shitty veg industrial burgers, unless you make everything yourself from raw ingredients. Still awful and unhealthy though, because it's very unbalanced.
My iron and vitamin deficiencies sky rocketed in those 6 years.
Haven't had meat for 12 years now but if my health is at risk I'll start again, I'm not having a miserable life just because someone somewhere has decided I have to feel guilty to have a normal diet.
A bit of everything is always key.
I an very much at peace now because i went vegan 10 years ago. It has been the best decision of my life. I have no doubt it is the future of food to not consume animal products. But change takes time.
Why did going carnivore improve my health and reverse my chronic health issues? I can count on two hands the times I've eaten vegetables in the last 7 months and I've never felt better.
@@RepublicOfWesternCanadaNOW Anecdotal evidence.
Tradition, convenience, etc :doesn’t justify killing and exploiting.
Less people do g child abuse is better than a lot of being abusing children, doesn’t means u should advocate for people to do less child abuse. U should tell them to stop all together.
So I want to know what is the morally relevant difference why it’s ok to exploit and kill non humans for convenience and chlorite and tradition etc but not ok to do the same to humans?
Name the trait(s)
Being vegan is horrible for health (bread, pasta, fries etc are all vegan garbage. Being vegan is the worst thing for environment (poor quality plastic fake "leather" that pollutes at highest rate, overuse of farm land, killing natural ecosystems including wildlife with GMO crops, creating mountains of non-compostable plastic waste, using huge amounts of water and toxix chemicals for plant farms, etc). Being vegan is definitely not ethical, since you kill all animals with plastic waste and misuse of farm lands, flooded with toxins and being depleted fast. Please, don't repeat vegan ВS, there are too many idiоts who have zero clue how DAMAGING & UNETHICAL veganism actions is. Aside from being a wrong diet for humans. We are omnivores and must eat 10-15% of animal products to be healthy, since we need certain amino acids and essential fatty acids, none of us could create internally and those must me consumed. Being overweight or obese is selfish and steals resources from people in need. So, lose the fat, don't be so egocentric! Also, enough with shopping addiction and getting into debt! That's way better than being vegan 🙄
It will be a good idea if there was a 50% tax on meat
im laughing a lot seeing this I am actually a very muscular latino guy from BRazil sitting here in Sâo Paulo I do lift 2 cement sacks 50kg each Ibeen through all sorts of struggle but I never abandoned the veganism , well just think about it everything is energy is this the type of energy you want everytime inside you /??? the planning of meals is complicated for you because they make less options on purpose depending on the region for us vegans but I tell you , its not that complicated to boil and season some veggies to eat I can really show you in multiple ways we are superior on cardio and on strenght exercises also it was very fun to see it , no my friend you dont need any bl 0 0 d in your mouth to get strong , a high protein diet comes with increased risk of cancer , tumor , blocked veins , no matter if its animal or vegetal , most of this mediterranean diet and alll this nutritionist marketing is buLLLKrePs , I really hope you think less about yourself and more on the environment and the animals that was a really fun , nice try tiger
but yeah a high carb diet with normal protein intake will give twice the muscular mass of the average natural joe gym goer
but yeah if you wanna keep eating poor african and poor brazilian free labor its a good idea to keep going on that track
great video on many levels. being born omnivores has to say something about what we should be putting in our bodies. it doesn't have to be every day like you say. I have a little once a week just for nutrition and gut health
Humans aren’t born omnivores. Infant humans are often hardcore mono-dieters, subsisting exclusively on the milk of their mother, or in some cases the milk of other mammals (weird!).
The typical human becomes an omnivore when the other humans responsible for its well-being introduce a variety of other foods into its diet. This could result in any number of dietary choices once the human is an adult.
I can only support my opinion here by assuring you that my username checks out.
I’m I bored mean u don’t need to eat animals. So why be so cruel ?
@@beardednurse yes. im saying the fact we can eat meat and vegetables without problems (mostly) and thrive says a lot about our evolution and what we have used in the past for nutrition.
@@sundersquare thanks for that clarification, though I still don’t think we’re born omnivorous, despite our biological ability eat and consume both plant and animal matter. Instead, our GI system adjusts to what it’s given, as infants or adults.
The fact that a human is capable of a particular action isn’t great evidence that the action itself is useful or good.
The human body is capable of a variety of actions that have positive and negative consequences for the human itself, other humans or creatures around it, or it’s environment in general.
I think better evidence for the choices we should make is given by what we know about the consequences and results of our actions, rather than our knowledge of which actions are available to us.
Exactly ❤
This one isn’t going to age well.
Once our alien overlords arrive and discover how much they enjoy the taste of human, we’ll have more important problems to solve.
It’s easy to agree to disagree when you’re both at the top of the food chain.
Christians await the arrival of Christ, and vegans await the arrival of intelligent aliens who only eat carnivores
Interesting take.
Purely speculative, but I’m guessing that the taste of human is roughly the same regardless of the human’s diet - though perhaps intelligent alien life has an advanced taste palate that would lead them to care about such things. In that case, bonus for the herbivores.
I think it’s more likely the aliens won’t be so discerning and we all become equally opportune choices for Glorp Glop’s lunch.
@@beardednurse no bro, you forgot that we have chinese people, by the time they set foot on earth there will already be a gourmet restaurant with alien meat on the menu in china
Perhaps we can try the old "but we are sentient" argument.
@@beardednurse Naw, I know wild hog tastes nothing like domestic hog.
Sorry veganism is a cult (falls short of being a religion as they don't believe in a higher being, but has many other common characteristics)
There are many modern processed junk foods that are vegan, which is arguably not healthy. And you can otherwise eat dozens of other diets, that eliminate processed/factory food. In fact, the majority of vegans live on some of the same factory farmed foods, using monocrops that sterilse the soil with all non-crop plant life with toxic pesticides and artificial fertilisers.
The ethic argument is bunk, as we have always killed and eaten animals for nutrition, going back millions of years. But a group of people who lived a cotton wool existence, around 70 years ago, decided to be offended by this.
im not a vegan, but, as an asian, lets be real; it's cuz youre asian.
No need to give your reasons to suit your lifestyle…. why even do this video.
I don't understand the point of your comment. Why even make the comment?
I still believe it's helthier to include animal products. But i still care about the animals, so i have created a few rules:
- only chicken meat: way less intelligence than most animals and less impact on environment,
- only some fish for omega 3.
Milk and eggs from animals living in good conditions to me is kind enough. Honestly if i was an animal, i wish to have food and be protected from death and diseases of "nature". Isn't that what we do as humans for ourselves?
It's hard to be recruited into the cause when Vegans are misleading the public and themselves about the environmental harm of meat and the nutritional benefits of Veganism that doesn't survive scientific and anthropologic scrutiny. The truth is somewhat more nuanced.
But I think most of us would agree that the factory farming model needs to be replaced with something more sustainable and ethical.
The ethical discussion ends when you just admit the cruel truth and reply: “Well, sure you’re a kind hearted person, but excuse me if I’m not kind hearted enough to care about my food being killed.”
If we want to save our planet....we must practice veganissm.......
We don't have any choice I this matter...
I don't think you need to justify your consumption of animal foods so much. I'm saying this because I felt a bit bad for you guys after reading through some of the comments.
It's perfectly normal human behaviour that has played an integral role during our evolution over hundreds of thousands of years.
Personally, I think that veganism is a modern eating disorder and it seems to have predominantly spread among women in highly industrialized societies (pretty much Europe and NA). (The same pattern as any other eating disorder)
No worries, we actually really enjoyed seeing the different perspectives. Your perspective was interesting too, thanks for sharing 🙏
I'm vegan (diet wise) for 16 years now. I can't say a conscious choice not to eat meat or its byproducts to be an "eating disorder". That said, I don't see any issue in the consumption of meat by itself. The fact that we should eat globally less meat, in favor of more vegetable sources in general is a well established one, though. Doctors commonly recommend the consumption of less red meat for multiple reasons.
From a planetary perspective, the industrial meat production in general have been pressing agricultural lands to do what I call a second hand farming: we grow soy and corn, to feed poultry and hogs, that are then slaughtered and distributed through a very complicated logistic chain due to refrigeration and sanitation needs. This cycle demands much more energy than a simple grain/beans based logistics.
Mind that I'm not saying this is the reason for global warming. Burning petrol is the main reason. But logistic burdens are a relevant factor nonetheless.
Notice that this is totally different to have a farmer creating a hog on leftovers and then slaughtering it at the end of the year to make sausage/lard/etc. Or having a few chickens as part of a permaculture setting to control plague insects, and then using their eggs and eventually slaughter a non producing hen to make a broth. Or to have pigs bred to collect insuline for people with type 1 diabetes.
And notice that "being vegan" by itself may solve the logistic burden mentioned. If you eat those ultra processed vegan burgers, you are just creating the same problems, but with vegetarian sources instead.
I will never be vegan or vegetarian. The body needs go grow and glow foods 😅
Yesss, love being who I'm born to be. An omnivore! Love it! I only use what I need. I do it in ethical and correct way, since I'm Jewish. Being vegan is horrible for health (bread, pasta, fries etc are all vegan garbage. Being vegan is the worst thing for environment (poor quality plastic fake "leather" that pollutes at highest rate, overuse of farm land, killing natural ecosystems including wildlife with GMO crops, creating mountains of non-compostable plastic waste, using huge amounts of water and toxix chemicals for plant farms, etc). Being vegan is definitely not ethical, since you kill all animals with plastic waste and misuse of farm lands, flooded with toxins and being depleted fast. Please, don't repeat vegan ВS, there are too many idiоts who have zero clue how DAMAGING & UNETHICAL veganism actions is. Aside from being a wrong diet for humans. We are omnivores and must eat 10-15% of animal products to be healthy, since we need certain amino acids and essential fatty acids, none of us could create internally and those must me consumed. Being overweight or obese is selfish and steals resources from people in need. So, lose the fat, don't be so egocentric! Also, enough with shopping addiction and getting into debt! That's way better than being vegan 🙄
Many should examine the role of animals in which every species of an animal has a specific purpose which was ordained by a higher power. Many wear leather and silk and hardly ever question any ethical issues with this. Many animals are domesticed which is not their normal standard of living. Nothing wrong with eating meat. Animals may have similarities to humans but they are not humans. Eating should be enjoyable....ANYBODY WANT CHICKEN???😅