Framework 16: The Ultimate Upgradeable Laptop
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- Опубліковано 1 чер 2024
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► Timestamps
00:00 Introduction
00:58 Look & Feel
02:15 Ports
03:02 Display
04:09 Keyboard
05:39 Trackpad
06:01 Sound
06:35 Webcam
06:45 Configuration Software
07:26 CPU Performance
08:56 Gaming Performance
09:42 Battery Life
10:16 Upgradeability
10:38 Linux Support
11:10 Heat & Fan Noise
12:40 Conclusion
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#Best #Programming #Laptop #Framework #top10 #gaming #computerscience #students #student - Наука та технологія
This seems very much like a "version 1.0" product that needs some refinement. Tech heads and early adopters will soak it up in droves, which should hopefully give Framework the capital to smooth out the rough edges.
Tell me another Linux capable (with official Linux support) laptop that has a 16 : 10 screen, an ANSI keyboard, and an AMD Ryzen CPU and AMD Radeon GPU.
Plus it doesn’t sting to be an early adopter since you can just add the upgrades when they come out
@@cameronbosch1213 This is the only reason that is making me not immediately cancel my pre-order. As a Linux user... you kinda don't have another choice
@@chic_luke Same here. I use Linux, and after THREE 2023 Windows gaming laptops had dealbreaking flaws on Linux, I'm kind of screwed unless I want crappy old laptops with 16 : 9 screens, mediocre build quality, and less options. Not to mention they'll be even MORE expensive.
@@cameronbosch1213 oh my stars, your laptop that can SCRUB A 4K VIDEO AND DO REALTIME RAYTRACING has a little bit of flex in the display. it's traaaaaaaaaash!
i don't know what qualifies as "mediocre build quality" these days, outside of tech bros who want their laptops to be fashion accessories. maybe get a padded bag and stop tossing around your $2000 electronics like gym clothes.
Framework have been very transparent about their process and I know they'll keep working through the imperfections.
Well said, and I agree
The CS2 stutters are a CS2 issue, it’s compiling and caching the shaders for the first time during gameplay on each new map after a new install or major update. You might see them come back briefly loading into maps you didn’t test yet.
This here, correct. Wanted to say the same but scrolled down before to see if it was mentioned already.
I thought most games do this on Linux, but honestly I wouldn't even be able to remember because like he said it doesn't last long.
Why can't it just compile on startup?
@@desklamp4792 Vulkan games do compile shaders before launch, thats why some games have a popup saying 'compiling shaders' and you have to wait before you can play. It happens before first launch and doesn't happen afterwards. Its not a Linux thing, its a vulkan thing. DirectX compiles shaders on the fly which means u may experience some stuttering on the first launch.
I was in the batch 1 for the first 13 inch 11th gen framework and batch 1 for the first AMD framework. The third iteration with AMD feels significantly better than the first one. I assume the same will happen with the 16 inch framework. Every iteration will get better and you will be able to upgrade it to fix whatever you didn't like. Other than the bios battery fix I didn't install any improvement on the 11th gen.
I would assume so!
Gotta say, as a developer I've never had an issue with a 1440p panel, let alone a 1080p panel for what I'm doing. I'm not sure what kind of "coders" your referring to but I don't think 4K is really necessary for looking at 13pt text all day.
Same here. Maybe Josh has bad eyes. 👀
May be its nice have higher resolution, but what I notice as code, is that in small screen the biggest problem is spacing between elements.
when everything is danced together it can be overwhelming
The better your eyes the worse a low res panel will look because you'll be able to see individual pixels. So quite the opposite, you might be the ones with bad eyes @@cameronbosch1213
I think he's comparing with a MacBook. I do see individual pixels on a Windows laptop in comparison FWIW. That's on a 1200p screen too
UA-camrs have this problem, they are always hungry for more
A bit larger and upgradable is better than shorter and fixed components for life
Said the same thing when I dumped my short husky ideologically-ridged ex-gf!
And Framework absolutely nailed it all. Their smaller 13 inch lineup is also very upgradable while being as thin as most modern ultrabooks
Did it really have to look like shit tho?
yes, as long as people know what they are getting into
but if it costs double the price of a competing product, you could just buy 2 new laptops over the same product lifespan instead; so its a bit of a moot point currently
As you pointed out, the Framework 16 has a lot of issues, but the issues it has don't really bother me too much. Plus, I love what the company has set out to do, and I already have an 11th gen 13", so I already know what to expect. Great review, and I can't wait for mine to come in!
Intriguing bit on the coil whine, from the 5th update on the F16 shipping timing update (Jan 11): “Resolved issues: 1. Tuning capacitor noise - We found and resolved one additional scenario that could result in a high pitch noise coming from the Mainboard when using >20V power adapters.”
I wonder if perhaps there are more scenarios where this occurs, or if you managed to somehow get a unit without this fix.
Interesting, we did update the bios
It's very possible they sent a unit from before they applied the fix
the units they sent to reviewers have MOST the issues fixed but not all of them, so maybe this is one of the ones that is fixed on the customers version but not the reviews one. We can hope!
In their blog post about reviews going live they mentioned many fixes coming, including electrical noise coming from main board or graphics module!
Great review! Already have my preorder (bacth 7), but it’s nice that the worst issue is one they already have discussed at length and have already improved from the review units
I think the most interesting thing will be how Framework handles a Gen 2 of this product. It may just be needing to buy a Gen 2 chassis which would save Gen 1 users a lot of money as they can carry over any components they don't need upgraded and buying any upgrades where needed. That could save you a lot of money compared to buying a brand new laptop from another company even with its current price tag.
When it comes to the keyboard deck flex LTT pointed out they said they would ship any parts to people whose orders have already shipped if they could find a solution, and yeah a Gen 2 chassis probably won't cost us too much if they do eventually come up with one. Pretty happy about how transparent they are with their development and what they're willing to do for their customers.
Thank you for the review. I will say that I am still looking forward to my framework 16 and the primary reason is that it checked all the boxes. 16:10 matte display, AMD cpu + gpu, 2 accessible ram slots, a full-sized m2 and a second m2... and 6 perpherial ports. *six* ports. Plus whatever is included with the dGPU. Completely replaceable components... but the most important part: if the hinges go south I can BUY THEM STRAIGHT FROM THE COMPANY! I have gone through 6 workstation/gaming class laptops that have failed because of the hinge in their 4th-5th year of use. Its just obscene. Gigabyte/Aorus, Dell, HP, Clevo... *sigh* Machines I spent thousands on. I can tell you their failure mode too - Metal hinge epoxy/screwed to a plastic layer that became brittle after thermal exposure. The only laptops I've never had a hinge crack on were MBPs and the T440s laptop from work. That's it.
About the only thing I hope is that the shield between the keyboard deck and the main board gets re-enforced. It looked really wobbly there so I suspect deck flex on typing might be an issue and that you might be able to improve key-feel with some re-enforcement.
Thank you for your insanely detailed review!)
Incredibly informative!
According to Framework, the 240W charging is not for later, it's for when you tax the CPU and GPU right now. Unfortunately, nobody currently makes a 240W USB-C adapter, so the battery will drain even when you're plugged in if you push the laptop all the way.
Josh thank & Taylor for the review and the testing on linux
You got it!
Brutally honest, great review!
Really good review! I'm especially impressed that you even went through the software too, including using Linux. I have my eyes on Framework for the day I need a new laptop. Hopefully they support even more keyboard layouts by then!
Thank you Josh! Few laptop reviewers are as concise and dedicated like you are.
I think large under display bezels aren’t that bad since they raise up the display and reduce neck strain
Hey for the palm rejection thing, you can center the trackpad under the keyboard even if it's off to the side (like when you have the keypad installed) or simply on its own, if that helps!
i bought a 13 inch, intel 11gen framework. Aside from the rtc design flaw, I love this laptop. I plan to get a 16" when the base price goes down
I’ve preordered one without the dedicated graphics, so I think I’ll keep it. Thanks for the detailed and balanced review.
Don’t need a laptop yet, but will most likely go for this due to the life cycle cost advantage. Hope this spurs other companies to introduce modular options.
Very patronising recommendations at the end. Someone who wants a 16 inch laptop is not going to be satisfied with a 13 incher, as simple as that.
Exactly. For me a laptop is a satellite to my primary workstation, so I prefer portability and lightness over size. I used to have a 16" Dell and it was a bear to transport. The build quality really couldn't hold up and it started failing within a few years. A 13" for me hit the right spot as an on-the-go device.
I was really torn between the Lenovo Slim (Yoga) Pro 9I and the Framework 16. I finally bought the Lenovo last week and this review made me feel better about my decision. The only negative on the Slim Pro 9i is the battery life as I don't really game on my laptop. I have been using an old Toshiba that had to be plugged in all the time, so ANY battery life is a positive for me.
From my experience with an ideapad 5 15 (broken hinge design) I don't care if it looks dated or even if it looks like an acual piece of crap, I care that the thing is well designed, well cooled and well built.
Great, unbiased and very detailed review, your mom should be very proud!
I was attracted by the idea of this laptop but got ROG Flow X13 instead because it's much more portable while having rtx 4060 and it allows me to add external rtx 4090 later. Btw, ROG Flow X16 might be a better option for similar size and price. I think that Framework is doing a great job but it's surely not for everyone.
Cueious what bags can hold the laptop with gpu. My legion 7 16 already barely fits in my large backpacks laptop slot. Guess ones targeting 17 inch laptops
I really appreciate the honestly! I was comparing this to the m3 pro MacBook pro because I really liked the upgradability but decided to go with the MacBook because of the performance and battery life. Now I am glad I did! Coming from Intel and Windows mainly.
I enjoy your review style since it emphasizes the growing pains that Framework experiences with their computers. The opportunity to update the CPU after few generations is the most important feature for me. When it happens, I can receive a 30-40% CPU boost on my laptop without paying the entire $1300+ price. I'm speaking from experience, having owned a 13-inch framework laptop. When upgrading the CPU or motherboard, the old one can be powered outside of the laptop chassis. Allowing you to purchase a case from framework as a standalone computer with VESA mounting capabilities.
I used to own an Asus Zephyrus G14 GA104IV laptop, which regrettably died from water damage last year. I checked to see if I could get any spare components from any authorized or third-party websites. Unfortunately, no one is selling components for that laptop anymore. I appreciate the idea of a framework that allows users to fix their own laptops; all spare components, including the top and bottom cases, are still available on their marketplace. The ability to replace broken parts, upgrade the CPU/motherboard, and then reuse the old motherboard as a mini PC at home is really important to me.
The parts are expensive with 13th gen motherboard (not even current) costing £1049 for the i7-1370P! I can buy a new 14-gen for that with OLED and 16GB of RAM! I think people have over expectations of this.
@@andyH_England On the other hand a 7840U board is below 700, which is a much better pick than 13th gen Intel.
I was always curious about new laptops. Only this one made me excited
I bought a 1st gen 13 inch knowing there would be imperfections and I gave my trust to them and they ironed out some issues, better speakers and hinges! Years later I will buy a 16 inch and know they should be able to iron out some of the imperfections later as well.
That's true for any ventured capitalist. Remember all the quality control issues with Teslas? They've com a long was as of late but there still struggling with that even today.
Awesome and thorough review. Great work, team.
Looks like the new AMD FMF driver wasn't tried? Just mentions of FSR3.
Seems like with most Framework the shipping firmware has bugs and needs an update or two (like every OEM these days). I hope they shift to a better firmware one of these days, they just aren't big enough to get the attention from the vendor so they end up only getting one or two firmware updates a year.
Had an opportunity to talk to a firmware developer during one of the conferences as well as listen for his talk. It was very interesting to hear how many challenges these guys are facing to bring this kind of laptops and that eventually they are figuring it out! In 2024 when everybody just solders shit down. Plus guys are creating some cool post-laptop use-cases for their motherboards.
To be fair, it was the market that drove manufactures to soldered configurations in favor of thing and light.
@@krane15 , market or some specific company with over the top marketing budgets? I mean, other that “sexy commercial pic” why do you need a paper thin laptop? Laptop that weights around 1.4kg is going to be enough thin anyways. These guys had figured out how to make everything swappable in a 13.5 chassis maintaining the weight of a laptop around 1.3kg, so why wouldn’t other manufacturers do the same? Upsell, that is it.
nah, it was planned obscolence that "lead" them that way. surface pro for example ditched gluing all stuff together and the device is same size now. dont believe all the crap the corporations say @@krane15
thanks guys for the honest review. you are my favorite reviewers
I cancelled my pre-order after watching this review. I’d have chosen this over a non-Framework laptop and was ok with paying the premium because I wanted to support the company, and the fact that it can be upgraded would help me save money later on.
But I expect a new laptop, especially at this price, to have fewer issues. I don’t want to start looking forward to getting a chassis upgrade from day 1 of receiving my NEW laptop. I guess this is expected from the first generation of any product, but how impressive this thing is for a first attempt doesn’t make it more valuable to most consumers.
So I’ll go with a different one this time, and when it needs upgrading (in not sure how many years), I’ll look into Framework again. I trust it will be a better choice then than it is right now.
It's surprising that trackpad palm rejection can suck in 2024.
My 2016 HP Spectre has it dialed in, but new laptops (like my Asus) keep coming out with jumping cursors because they can't tell your palm isn't your finger?
Love the honest review, bought the 16 anyway because I support the mission.
Was looking forward for that review. We don't need false hype but honesty. And that's what you delivered. Thank you :)
If you don't recommend this laptop, then what do you recommend for Linux users? Becuase in the US, there isnt any other modern option with a dGPU. System76 is uncompetitive with even Framework and Tuxedo and Slimbook are a fortune to ship to the US and lack good keyboard layouts.
Lenovo, they have many models tested with Linux and if you opt with preinstalled Suse or Ubuntu, you will even have it supported for Linux use. SO you wont have any issues with trackpad drivers etc And you will get the best keyboard on the laptop market. Lenovo is more or less a nobrainer for Linux users. If you can afford it, and want a centered keyboard, I would recommend ThinkPad Z16 Gen 2, mostly because of battery life. The intel based ones have quite bad battery life.
@@incognito7843 Z16 has too few ports and a worse touchpad than other ThinkPads. Try again.
I think the Legion Slim 7 is no longer available from Lenovo according to their website :( Do you recommend buying a Slim 7 second hand, getting the Slim 7i, or are you optimistic about the gen 9 laptops and we should wait till then?
I'm not optimistic about 2024 laptops. I'd try to get one second hand.
Wish the gaming portion of the review was a bit more than the proforma single random test you did. The graphics card is pretty unknown so going beyond anecdote is helpful. Gaming performance can vary a ton game to game between different graphics cards.
So I think you are right about a back end dev making that software. That gui is built in python using the "pysimplegui" module. I can't believe I have seen a shipping product use that haha.
Framework seems bring the Old Laptop era back, when they were modular, fairly easy to disassemble and flexible
This probably just make today's laptop from other brands kinda.... I don't know what can I say
I wish they had dual USB C modules, even if they would sacrifice some features for at least one port. I often need more ports, not fast ones. The features I find really interesting are the modules next to the keyboard, I would absolutely love some eink module or even the led matrixes and display some useful info on them using custom code.
They supposedly tried that and never brought it to market, but there’s a guy on the forum who is trying to bring it to market himself. Framework even sent him their samples, which is honestly amazing.
The part about the swappable ports is so useful. I often need ethernet with my laptop, so having swappable ports is amazing, as it is very common for ethernet ports to break
I love that this laptop even exists. Thank you for the thoughtful review.
A note on the 7840HS. It is the most ram variable chip I've ever had. My laptop started with 8gb of ram. It got around 9600 on geekbench 6 multi. Installed 32gb of ram it went to 13600. There's always a ram boost but 40% is like having a different computer.
it's notable that recent generations of amd chips REALLY want you to work in pairs to get full performance. it's not about the amount of ram nearly as much as it's about using both channels.
More of a workstation than a gaming laptop. Imo it seems perfect for VMs due to 64GB RAM max and 2 M.2 SSD slots. I keep my laptop docked anyway and use external screen & mouse&kb
Although 64 GB RAM is the largest configuration currently available from Framework, it should be possible to build a 96 GB one using 2 x 48 GB DDR5. People have successfully put that in the AMD Framework 13, and the 16 has essentially the same processor. (The 7940HS is the same chip as the 7840U, except with higher power limits so it can run faster.) Even more RAM will be possible in the future.
Nice honest objective review Josh! Much appreciated. Fully get FW's mission however I don't know if this laptop is worth it at its price point given there are other laptops that have better QA, aren't dated with design, and are highly repairable (HP Elitebooks are a good example). But kudos to FW for what they are trying to do and I wish them nothing but success. This is a gen 1 product and it will only get better!
The problem is that many of those upgradable laptops from major OEMs are not upgradable that much anymore. I mean, look at Dell. Yikes! 😬
@@cameronbosch1213 Dell is its own awful and most definitely not what I was referring too - lol. I'm talking about Thinkpads, Thinkbooks (very much so), HP Elitebooks (very very repairable), System 76, etc. I believe Linus Tech Tips even did a video on the high reparability of the HP Elitebook singings its praises in terms of quality and high reparability.
Where was the macbook M3 in the gaming section. Oh, that's right.
I do wonder why your battery test puts it so much worse off than both LTT & Notebookcheck. This could be something to look into. Great video though! Love the idea of the product!
Do you think that future versions of this laptop will improve on those issues, or have Framework locked themselves in by having to stick to a sub-optimal chassis and general form factor to follow their upgradability mission?
I think there are several that can be addressed like the main board coil whine noise
According to the Framework emails I have, they didn’t want to lock themselves because it’s no the same unfinished software than unfinished hardware, they in fact delay the laptop two times due issues of that level.
So knowing that and their track record I don’t see why they can’t fix most of those things over the years.
A harder mid plate to increase keyboard stability, in the 13 inch they end up releasing (even as a upgrade kit for the Intel 12th gen) a top cover replacement to reinforce the lid.
They can release better speakers and webcam in the future as well as better displays that use more real state if they want (fingers cross for a glossy touchscreen high refresh rate, they have the pins to support touchscreens).
And stronger CPUs and GPUs, I’m going to buy one, but to me the current selection of CPU + GPU was kind of meh, but they don’t have the capacity to release a ton of options from the start, that’s a lot of money + plus they had help of an AMD partnership, so they probably tried to point a middle point that is enough for most people, but they did the groundwork to enable for example a 16 core future ryzen with a 5090 laptop GPU and/or an equivalent AMD GPU, they have the headroom, the most laptops GPU can consume currently is 150W (strongest 4090 laptop) their current 7700S uses 100W, probably they can add 150W options for the users that they really want it at the expense of using the then available 240W USB-C chargers.
So I would say they managed to accomplish it good enough to have a brilliant future that probably could afford from the start
Something about the price, for many of the components, you can bring your own. Right down to the power brick. The price can be knocked down substantially. At least where I live I can find good value alternatives for ram and ssd.
I know it might come across as coping, but the lower bezel being that thick and making the screen be slightly higher makes it a tiny bit more ergonomic when compared to regular laptops.
I agree
A very good review! As far as I know, the prices for upgrade kits with new chip generations that frameworks sells, are cheaper then buying a new one. So the higher price might be justified when comparing it over two generations time. Two "normal" Laptops are probably more expensive then one Framework + upgrades. Just a little change of perspective.
Upgrading from Gen 11 to Gen 13, which is not current, is £1050 for the motherboard alone without buying the latest wifi, RAM, and SSD! It really is poor value. But if modularity is more critical than value then the compromise is for you to make.
It's the repairs for me. With kids and school needs we'll end up with 4-5 laptops in our house. No more scrolling eBay and doing janky repairs because something stopped working or was broken.
@@andyH_England I hope Framework will get better quote from hardware manufacturers one they get bigger, which would translate into price reduction. At least the motherboard is made to be reusable. That could count as some cost recouped for many.
@@tuanld91 If you upgrade every three years, then who will be willing to pay for a secondhand proprietary motherboard that is three years or more old? Those that have a Framework will already have an aged device.
My main issue is that only a tiny niche group is willing to pay these prices for upgradeability. Once Framework has exhausted them, it will have diminishing sales returns. The business model where fans buy one chassis for life seems risky and has a short half-life to survive in an ultra-competitive market.
@@andyH_England I think it makes more sense in the larger form factors. The framework 16 is actually really good for what it is, and being able to upgrade graphics and having a large modular input deck are big selling points alone. Not to mention the swappable ports or easy to upgrade storage/memory/wifi. And easy availability for new batteries, which are also easy to replace.
The extra bezel is just fine by me, brings the display higher to eye level.
really hard work put into this video.
I will consider it when they release one with front facing speakers.
You're such a blessing to us the viewers. If there is only ONE tech channel i have to subscribe to, it's yours. Honest and reliable. Thank you so much.
Glad we could deliver :) This review was seriously a bit nuts. We spent so many hours on it!
Great review !
Thanks Josh! Framework will bea force to reckon with once there isa comparable soc to the apple M series. Fingers crossed for the snapdragon era 🤞
Or even just better CPUs in terms of Zen 5.
Can someone Tell me how good the Acer Swift Go 14/16 i7 16 GB for a stundent in Software developing is?
10:07 Did you set the screen to 60 hz in Windows? That could make a HUGE difference.
yes
Huh, looking at LTT's review and what they've sent people in Batch 1 compared to reviewers makes me think you could have gotten a potential defective unit. I'll compare the results to my Batch 1 model when I get mine. Thanks for responding!
@@cameronbosch1213 Thank you for being a beta-tester for the rest of us! lol
Could these guys also start making Phones and Tablets?
Respect the honest review!
Dude... The only reason I'm buying a laptop is because it's the framework. It's not like I want a dedicated gpu gaming laptop so I choose it. It's simply because they came out with the 16 inch, and there's no way I'll buy a laptop that's not as feature rich and customizable. I've been gaming on geforce now for years without a hitch. If the choice is any other gaming machine - nothing, then nothing would win for the next, possibly, decade. I want to support them, I want to tinker, and I want to reduce my future waste impact. I just hope my trust isn't misplaced (but after this review I'm sure my friend would hate this machine. He's an apple guy, through and through. A hint of coil whine would drive him up the wall, meanwhile me, having 5 phones, all broken and barely functioning chrome os as daily driver... Oh mind you, a 96gb ram kit is waiting for my framework. And I'll use an old m.2...let's see which other laptops can be bought without ram and ssd)
unfortunately, as expected after seeing the power limit when announced, the dgpu is extremely lackluster in this price segment, until they can offer a module with about double the power limit, its not particularly compelling
There's not much they can do because AMD basically has no more options in the S series atm.
Hey Josh, great review as usual! I'm not sure I see the appeal of this product. It seems really lackluster compared to the alternatives out there. Unless your main desire is the upgradability of this product, there are certainly better options out there.
I think an underrated feature is the option for 83 Hz to 165 Hz dynamic refresh rate switching. My M16 only allows switching between 240 Hz and 60 Hz. 240 Hz drains the battery way too much but 60 Hz feels like an unnecessary compromise. ~90 Hz is a great sweet spot. I think more manufacturers should introduce this
Good to know that this laptop has Linux support out of the box and officially on their website. But the price is too high for me to get one.
I love the Framework concept and I would ignore some of the flaws mentioned in this video. But for such a price, you must have a better screen. At least OLED with slim bezels. By the way, thanks for reviewing the Linux version as well.
The lagging after load isn't a Framework or Linux issue, it's an AMD/CS2 issue. The first min or so is spent caching texture shaders when the texture/effect first appears ;-)
Why these caches do not persist is anyone's guess.
no touch and stylus support?
Excellent video. Keen to see where this company goes in the coming years.
Yes, it's not perfect, but as a developer I do not have much of a choice here - ether buy MacBook or use Linux on windows machine with all driver problems that come with it. I need Unix system and therefore my choices extremely limited.
Only problem I have is that it's not available in my country and I would have to figure out logistics, that is the only reason I might consider going back to MacBook.
What about Thinkpad, system 76, or HP Elitebooks? You can run Linux natively. I run Fedora on my Thinkpad T14s Gen 3 AMD with no issues. Some devs on my team run Linux on Dell XPS
In the end, all of those are pretty lackluster compared to Mac quality of life. Don't get me wrong, the Framework and others are upgradable and all. But when I held and tried the framework physically in real life, it was shittiest, cheapest feeling, poorly built machine.@@meal_team_six
@@meal_team_six There's no mention of Linux support neither on Thinkpad or HP or dell websites, when I open their respective websites they advertise only Windows 11 pro support. Elitebooks was my initial choice as I can buy it right now but it's a still windows laptop that happens to be compatible with linux. system 76 - not available in any store in my country, also can't be shipped there, so it's the same problem as with Framework.
I use Dell XPS with Ubuntu, no issues. Same with HP Elitebooks in my company (though they can spin the fans quite a bit).
@meal_team_six You can, but you'll get ZERO help. And the XPS 13 developer edition is probably dead, given it's already a poor choice with Windows.
As usual amazing work Josh... but you said at the end "heat and fan noise is NO macbook" period... been suffering fan noise with windows / linux laptop for the last 2-3 years trying to find the ideal NOT macbook model but honestly... when you work with a laptop which is deadly silent you can't go back to even a whisper noise...
Yep its difficult. The new HP Spectre 14 for 2024 is pretty good with heat and fan noise. But haven't tried it with Linux, only Windows. Video out next week.
Thanks for the nice comment
I would like to see an external gpu enclosure that uses the framework gpu socket and a hdmi/displayport input port.
That would be perfect if it could dock with an external GPU. Speaking of DisplayPort, its up to DP 2.1, but no hardware manufacture supports that even after 3 years. The majority of laptop (as well as other hardware) are still using DP 1.4 for a decade ago.
As expected with niche products from small companies who are trying to create tech "the right way hence more complicated way", it's inferior to the competition in some aspects and it's more expensive in terms of feature/specs to price ratio. Hopefully Framework can fix these quirks in the future and make it an actual viable option for mainstream market. Right now, I think their products are mostly for people who believes and support what they're doing.
Like Tesla?
The main thing that wrong is the price.. 7840HS+1T+32G+P3/165Hz is $1600 while I can buy a new one except sRGB/90Hz for $600... almost near 3 of it. Right to repair is when you want to retain the old obvious valuable stuff like replacing the new Macbook's only 8GB (non-replaceable) RAM. Going from a $600 what's the money face value left just two three years? $200 ~ $300? IMO these company should better invest in mineral material recycle infrastructure than charge people 3x the price for the right idea but meaningless execution.
I´m going to order one for my birthday later this year. The quirks should be ironed out by the time, maybe some new components will be available etc. This is a dream come true. I use gaming laptops for my work, because they are cheaper than professional laptops, and perform their job admirably. My only issue is the childish gaming RGB funny design. Looks ridiculous at a meeting. But being able to upgrade every component is what I always wanted. If Framework won´t go bankrupt that is... Than it will end one day as a tech curiosity in my glass showcase. But what a beauty of an utilitarian design, but still esthetical.
Im a programmer and i always downecale high res displays. Unless monitors are big enough, the interface just becomes so small. For quick fixes on the go, sure, but otherwise im connecting to monitors anyway.
13:45 I'm pretty sure that has soldered RAM. Not really comparable in that regard.
Those lag spikes at 11:00 mark are due to shader recompilation. They will rear the ugly head once there is a graphic driver upgrade as they need to be recompiled again.
I agree with your recommendation. Too many user experience sacrifices. Framework need to go back to the drawing board here.
please do a 2024 review of the 2018 macbook air for students
I like your honest review but as someone who does not own a framework but wants to in the future the point of framework now and even in the future is the message you want to send and the modularity+repairability+future upgradability. At least i think that is the point of framework. Unless the 13" is much better for value when comapared to other 13" laptops.
Framework isn't going anywhere. Heck, the Linux community seems to really like what they're doing. So if things go south with Microsoft, then they could partner with System76 or some Linux distro and basically finally have competitive Linux first offerings.
Are you an investor or something? Why are you everywhere and like being so aggressive. I don't care that you are a Linux user. I hope others in your community aren't like you. Also you have proof that all of the Linux community likes what they are doing?
Also I am a normie who uses windows and I don't care about Linux as of now. I do however care about the other stuff I mentioned
@@Karthig1987 I'm not an investor. I'm just an advocate for people being able to repair their own devices and not be stuck because of greedy companies like Microsoft & Apple.
This is a much better review than the LTT one. I know much more about this now
Except this isn't a final unit. Not very helpful of a review.
I'm an IT student, why would I need to read small text? I can set the font larger or zoom in. I can anyway see enough of the code at a time
Could you do a video about Samsung Galaxy Book ?
Hey can you tell which laptop has best Linux support I.e support for fingerprint scanners , virtualisation
First, I want to preface this comment that I have massive respect for Josh and his team and all of the work they do, especially with hold OEMs accountable. However, Josh, I have watched LTT's review and that plus some update emails that Framework has sent out make me think that your unit may have been defective. I'm in batch 1, and I'll compare my unit to your review unit when it comes, but I do expect some things to be improved when the retail unit comes to me.
And with 2024 bringing even more laptops with less upgradability (like soldered RAM) and with very few options that are good with good Linux support, I dont think there's any alternative for my use case. Sure, this laptop isn't perfect. Nothing is in life. But given that the alternative is to have a super outdated feeling Linux first laptop or have to install Linux on a Windows laptop and basically be on my own in terms of driver support (as I have been before), I'll gladly take this laptop, because as somebody who really feels strongly about right to repair and not using macOS or Windows, I literally don't have any other option for my use case.
Again, I'm not blaming you or Taylor for reviewing what appears to be a defective unit and calling out said defects. I just think maybe there could be more to the story. And as I'm in batch 1, we'll soon know the truth about the retail units.
As an update, LTT, Digital Trends, and Phoronix all had generally good experiences with this laptop. As of this update, it seems both Just Josh and Sean Hollister both got less than stellar units. Could something happened during transit to their addresses or could they have gotten very early units while everybody else got closer to production units?
Update 2: NotebookcheckReviews had a positive review as well. That's 4 positive experience units, 2 defective ones.
Have you heard of Tuxedo? If so, what do you think of their laptops?
@@The8BitPianist They're decent for people in the EU. But they're not really an option outside of the EU, as they're shipping fees are quite high outside of the EU, they're bascially just Clevo or Tongfang rebrands, and their keyboard layouts are pretty limited for ANSI keyboard users, as they lack that option.
And System76 is just Clevo and uncompetitive with even Tuxedo.
@@cameronbosch1213 Thanks for the fast reply!
If they could make this as solid as a MacBook Pro while still making it easy to swap out parts would make me get this in a heartbeat. I love my MacBooks but not the prices.
This is the main problem right now. I feel like the starting price of $1400 would be acceptable if it came with basically everything but the dGPU module. Unforuntately, I can skip ram, ssd, os and still be at $2000 easily. Right now that it not acceptable.
My plan was to get it without a GPU and get an nvidia card when they become available,. It's extremely nice to have that option, but there may be too many other downsides here :(
Also, I would be very interested in the screen's latency and motion clarity performance, but I'm sure other more gaming focused channels will cover that. This review was excellent and very much appreciated!
I don't think they will come soon
Id suggest checking after preorders get their framework said the review units have flaws they've fixed since
indeed its a very cool machine but it has one major flaw: availability.
That's the AMD experience for ya
Will arrive in the future a big and bad gaming model?
The only thing that would be needed to make this a kick-ass gaming laptop is a higher end GPU option. That high end GPU module for the expansion bay might need its own power supply for maximum performance. Framework and its GPU partner TUL (which uses the PowerColor name for its retail products in the US and VTX3D in Europe) may choose to offer one in the future, though no plans have been announced.
Isn't this GPU module a bit of a limitation by itself? The fans are on each side. If you want a really powerful GPU, manifacturers have to place the fans right over the CPU and GPU to cool them down nowadays.
Could it mean this laptop would never be able to have anything stronger than this AMD GPU they have (4060 equivalent)?
I admit that I'm not convinced by the Framework 16 and its intended use case. I find that for the same price, I'm much better served by the AMD Framework 13 (which is amazing) for portability, and a desktop for gaming or working at home.
Just got mine (without discrete GPU). Wanted to love it but it was uncomfortably warm on the lap at idle (2% CPU) and burning hot on the lap (70C on the sensors) watching youtube at 5-10% CPU. Totally unusable for me.
I don't agree with the complaint at 6:39 . I think it looks beautiful but I may be biased as I do backend dev only 😆