One thing to note is that with a modular system the price will always be higher until it can be subsidized. Likely not this much higher, this is due to them being relatively new tech, manufacturing, and supply and demand. However, most laptop manufacturers are selling you computers knowing they will fail in whatever number of years their testing has shown and that you'll have to buy a whole new laptop. Framework is going for a system where you could feasibly use the same system with different parts for decades. This means they can't rely on let's say once every 5 year 2-3k from you. You might spend 2k the first year and then only 100 over the next 10. You might not really upgrade at all and just fix what's broken. So in general price goes up if less purchases are possible or likely. You get the one big purchase or you get many tiny purchases. In this case their mission statement is that this big investment is a one time thing and then you're in the ecosystem. The price will likely go down over time with better components as first adopters get their systems but it's important to note that the price we're used to is a price that relies on us trashing our old rigs and buying a whole new one every time enough stops working. These companies do not maintain support for laptops past a certain number of years not even selling parts after their support has run out. Framework with this concept would be able to support older laptops and give them the nudges needed to keep up albeit not the fastest rig. This is a systemic shift and we have to be okay with yes our costs went up some but we have more freedom and can actually service our computer ourself. We don't need to buy a warranty so Dell will choose to service our computer or Apple Care will fix a problem that's $5 for a monthly fee. We don't have to throw away a perfectly good system because the RAM is sauttered on and one stick died. We don't have to fund Windows a new installation fee every time a component failure causes us to upgrade. The tech needs time to develop but that freedom of choice and device is something incredibly rare in today's day and age and something we desperately need back. The fact it's gaming performance is as good as it is has me floored. I just need the screen to get better and potentially speaker modules for good sound quality and I'd be sold. That being said rooting for them and this systemic change to be a hit to the point major producers in the space today start to have to adapt. We've already seen companies add back previously removed modularity.
Amen to that! Commenting for the algorithm because I believe this is probably the most important thing about Framework and similar projects. Freedom from various consumer traps which companies keep adding one by one, step by step.
@@quantumdot7393design is not everything, repairability is better. The fancy modern design of your MacBook won’t help if something breaks and you have to trash the entire thing cause they’re not serviceable.
I'm fine with the CPU choice, Phoenix was bleeding edge when they announced the product. The Hawk Point 8040 is essentially the same CPU , just with a faster NPU. CPU cores and the GPU are identical to 7040. There's nothing using the NPU apart from some Windows background camera blur effects at the moment. Framework have said they'll skip this gen, as there's no real world benefit, so the next upgrade will likely be Zen 5.
8040 is noticeably faster than 7040 in tests done on gaming handhelds which offer models with both chips but which are otherwise identical. I don't remember how much exactly, maybe 10% or so.
Laptop market is a tough one. Competition is fierce and every iteraton users have been losing rights to own a appliance in favor of just consume it and throw away. Framework's future is challenging. However, i think it is a company with values we all should root for and it represents a counterweight vision against what the laptop market has been moving lately.
Agreed. My next laptop will be a Framework, even if it's more expensive than a similar laptop from elsewhere, purely because I want to support this move back towards the days of repairability and truly _owning_ your device.
@@benjaminoechsli1941 The Price right now is what's inhibiting me. Not necessarily the price to performance ratio itsself but the price by itself. Its still too high imo. Im willing to pay a bit of a premium for what you get considering its upgradable but right now its too high for me. My general principles is Reparability of any product shouldn't come at a premium.
@@kylereis7854 If it;'s just higher clock speeds and no actual architectural improvements, then there really is no reason to upgrade from Phoenix, especially if that user was lucky enough to get a 7940HS.
Also, it has yet to be released, and no other laptop uses it either. The Framework team has just as much chance of creating and integrating a new processor as any other laptop company has of creating a new laptop for it.
@@cameronbosch1213 He is not understanding it. We love the minimal Nvidia chips on low power. he needs to play games, please buy the OMEN only for that ! Alienware good build ?
My framework 13 is the first laptop in ages that I really love (last years I had the top notch macbook pros). With the framework it feels like there is a personal relationship, the macbook always felt too boring :D
As a taller person I love it that the monitor is standing higher, it is easier to work with your laptop that way. It is one of the reasons why I dislike working with a laptop, that monitor being so low. Generally speaking laptops are quite unergonomical.
As a visually impaired person that is also taller, double yay for this honestly. Makes for much better ergonomics. I wish there was less lid flex though...
Well sure, but if you're wanting real acoustics, let alone actual bass, you're just not going to get it with flat laptop speakers that have little to no air volume. You're way better off dragging around portable speakers along with your computer.
Sorry, I just don't see a few perfectly sensible trade-offs as negatives. This is the same argument as the decades-old US versus foreign built cars. Japanese and European cars had this false perception of superior build quality when in reality, car culture controlled the market. US manufacturers had to design their cars to be maintained and fixed by average owners using standard store-bought tools or they just weren't going to sell. A half-inch bezel or a bit of keyboard flex is not bad build quality; it's just part and parcel of a laptop you can build and fix yourself.
It's not a reason to not buy it but it's nice to know beforehand. I always find it suspicious when someone does a review and mentions nothing negative because there are always tradeoffs
I feel like this laptop is the Skyrim of laptops (not just gaming laptops). It's a modder's dream and it will be the modders who will bring out the full potential of this laptop. Framework seems to have done a great job to make sure that the bones are solid and easy to work with. As long as they keep refining the base builds and the fit-and-finish of the parts I feel like the open-source community can just run with this thing and make it brilliant.
I've got a preorder for the 16 - group 4. There was only one thought on my mind when I got it: "can I fix it *when* it breaks." I've spent so much on workstation laptop computers over the years - they all suffered from the same failure points. Very frustrating. So as long as the parts are available I think I will be very, very satisfied with this machine. And if I can upgrade down the line? Win. I know this is a very *niche* set of priorities, so YMMV.
Regarding your old boards, you may not have noticed that there is already an ecosystem which allows you to take your old processor and put it into a new housing. I don’t know if framework is doing it themselves, but third parties and open source developers are creating it. So you can take that old processor, put it into a housing, and use it for another application likea home server, or maybe eventually even to run a raid, what have you.
It's always the same concerns, the price and the company. It's very clear that they are a small company and no one else as done this before so they have to do the design, engineering and anything else on their own and that costs money. So of course the first laptops they launch will be more expensive than the competition, and they still offer good specs. It has been almost four years I think since the FW13, they have fulfilled their promise so far and the vast majority of the customers have been satisfied, so I wouldn't be worried. People I buying this for modularity, upgradability and reparability, not because it has the best build and quality materials. If it's too expensive right now lets just wait a bit for it to be more affordable.
I'm buying one partly because I want to see this idea succeed, and to see Framework grow large enough that they can sell future laptops for less money so more people can afford one. I'm fortunate enough that I can justify the price, and hope that one day everyone that can't will be able to get one.
@@ilikepizza1275 Fair enough, but there are still limits. I don't need one of these, but, if I did, I'd be willing to pay a premium for repairability and long-term hardware support. There are still limits to this. When a machine with similar or better performance can be had for half of the price, the Framework becomes very hard to justify. Especially since most gaming laptops (the competition for the 16" model) already have user-replaceable RAM, storage, and batteries.
@@ilikepizza1275 I have an old XPS 15 and when I eventually have to get a new one in the near future I'm thinking of going with a Framework, as I also want this to succeed. Imagine if more went fully or at least partially modular, then there could come some standard which were uniform and would allow one to mix and match components from across the vendors, a benefit for all. Also when enough starts to adapt into Framework and people start to want to upgrade, then it should be cheaper for those who doesn't have much to upgrade, as you could probably get a better used component than the one you have, as someone might have upgraded to the newest component.
Don’t forget about the factory seconds version which is exactly the same but made from excess parts which is way cheaper so the cost depends if you want something completely brand new or not
For most laptops you can that that if it's a software issue, then it can be improved; But with the framework, even hardware issues can be improved 😆 Also the fixes don't necessarily need to come from framework, someone from the community could create their own modules, like a better keyboard 🤔
Joaco I replaced most parts in my HP Elitebook, unable to replace the GPU. never will replace the Keyboard, HP Elitebooks are the best. If i need a faster GPU, i need a new CPU too, replace the Laptop works better for me. You ever did any parts swaps ? I do love this concept, fancy people will love it, keep upgrading it !
Honestly, I thought the same. A great program from that one developer, it has been the go to to install Linux for over a decade and now that Microsoft has easened up a bit it also is the better way to install Windows. Basically Microsoft blocked it (it might or might not be that it was the intention, I won't speculate) for the longest time but now that you can just download a Windows-ISO this problem has been solved.
I guess when all you do is windows based laptops, making a boot drive isnt really something you do very often. I personally used windows for nearly a decade and didnt come across rufus until I decided to mess around with Linux.
One thing with 7700S is yes, it is more like a 4060 performance wise (but faster most of time), but look at those 1% lows, it gets closer to 4070 a lot of time for those.
Very cool idea BUT I just can't justify the price to performance and fit/finish. That said it's something I'll keep an eye on as they introduce new modules to see how upgrading pans out
To be fair, if you go the DIY route these laptops are way cheaper, especially if you choose to buy your RAM/SSDs elsewhere. I plan on buying one, and by getting them from another seller I’ll save a bit less than €500. Since the DIY edition is around €350 cheaper than the pre-built, I’ll have saved around €850, making the price-to-performance way better.
My advice if you would consider buying Framework: buy the 'DIY'-version, it costs $300 less and you can assemble it within 10 minutes. It also comes without Windows which I consider an advantage (not paying for Windows is great because I don't use it, also not unnessecary writes on the SSD so nice though the impact is small).
If you got a micro center nearby don't for get to get ram and storage from there, cheeper and MC it another peace of the puzzle we need to implement right to repair.
Love to watch this video. Beautifully edited, Warm and even audio, good narrative pace, empathetic treatment, cosy lighting.... Congrats. Oh, and really relevant topic...
I did the math and only 16.4" would be possible while still having enough of a bezel to be able to screw the screen in. If they glued the screen on (which is against their mission) they could potentially achieve 16.7". However Framework is limited by the displays already being produced. Getting a completely custom 16.3" display would be really expensive so they went with a slightly tweaked (slightly tweaked is a lot cheaper than completely custom) variant of the second largest panel already being produced that could be fit. The reason they went with the 2nd largest panel they could is because the largest panel already being produced that would fit is much lower refresh rate (60 Hz instead of 165 Hz), lower brightness (330 cd/m² vs 500 cd/m²), and reduced color space (74% DCI-P3 vs 100%). So they choose to use a 2.6% smaller panel that they could've in order to get much better other specs. It's possible my math was off, tomorrow when my FW16 is supposed to arrive I'll take measurements of the actual area available for the screen and if it can fit a larger screen than I calculated I'll update this comment.
@@handlemonium Why only 45 Wh? Let's shoot for more! On the Framework forums there have been several discussions about this. Framework's CEO suggested that either five 18650 cells or four 21700 cells could potentially be an option. Five 18650 cells would fit within the same form factor as the existing GPU module. The largest 18650 cells are slightly over 12 Wh so five calculates to an impressive 60 Wh! Four 21700 cells would require a slightly larger enclosure but the largest 21700 cells pack slightly over 20 Wh each so four calculates to 80 Wh! So 60-80 Wh of capacity could potentially be added through the expansion bay. Nothing has been officially announced by Framework, but given the amount of discussion that has occurred on the Framework forums (including by Framework's CEO) I think it is very likely that either Framework will make one or at the very least some community members will (it sounds like some people are already working on it).
The early adopter tax is rough. It's certainly a step in the right direction for consumer upgradability and reparability, but the price point is currently unfeasible.
Extremely expensive but I'm hoping this'll become a laptop standard in the future. I would rather have my laptops designed with reparability and upgrades in mind. Tired of electronics with difficult to swap batteries, soldered memory and storage with hard to source replacement parts.
5:34 this shouldn't be any issue, just pop in any 6, and if need any just SWITCH THEM OUT. This is actually why I am considering this. I just learned about this thing just yesterday, like yea wow!
Compliments to Frameworks for changing settings for the keyboard in the firmware! This is a great thing, being able to consistently change it no matter what OS the person uses and not having software overhead for that. One little point of criticism: I would like to have the touchpad on the right or left side, not in front of the keyboard, that way it doesn't get in the way and touchpads really don't need to be this big, just increase the mouse sensitivity and 20% of that size is plenty. Having said that, I woiuld not change the depth of the laptop (distance from the front to the monitor) because then the monitor gets uncomfortably close, I am ok with some 'dead space' for ergonomics.
7:00 Funny thing about that. During Win11’s earlier days, Microsoft didn’t have drivers for newer Intel WiFi cards. Intel actually made a post in Nuc support for you to run oobe\bypass to to skip the internet connection requirement for windows 11. And this is INTEL we are talking about
This is something to watch. And, I'm cheering for it to be successful ... either itself or by virtue of reforming other laptop industry players. Personally, I want to see more if I am to buy in when it is time for my next laptop purchase.
Tbh their $3000 laptop have the same spec as a $1500 laptop and like Dave2D said, you could just buy a $1500 laptop today and in 5 years buy another $1500 laptop with a much better spec, new chassis, screen and more, i been using my laptop for 3 years and there are a bunch of scratches, dinks on my screen and chassis, not sure if i want to keep using it assume that i have upgraded it with a new CPU, GPU. Also passing your old laptop to a friend or sell it is easier than selling its modular component
Imagine you bought the Dell XPS laptops 5 years ago. Loved the devices but when you went to buy a new Dell XPS device it was twice as expensive with worse thermals and no function keys. Then it becomes clear why modular laptops are better. The $3000 modular laptop is ALWAYS going to be a better investment because a company isn't going to force you to deal with a crappy hardware feature that you don't want.
Really impressed by what the framework achieved here. To this day my fav small-size laptop is Framework 13. But unfortunately, I cannot say the same for 16. But as a concept, they have achieved what they set out to achieve. An upgradable modular laptop! Hopefully, the trend will pick up and more players enter the market. Size to power, cost to power ratio and general utility of modules is missing/lacking, and hopefully, we reach there soon.
what's amazing about the framework laptops are that the motherboard in itself is essentially a single board computer. there's already a community of builders using the older motherboards as a powerful SBC or a small desktop. the reason big companies failed with modular laptops is that 1. they were afraid to hamstring their other lineups and 2. it was often proprietary and therefore solely or mainly depended on first party modules. all framework components are either existing industry standards, and if such thing doesn't exist (like the expansion bay), they publish the design. this is a very smart strategy; they don't have to support everything, rather they can invite individuals or even other companies to offload some of that burden. it's replicating the IBM compatible desktop market. and the motherboard being modular and having many usb-c ports means that it has a resale value on its own. as it's already quite powerful while being (relatively) low power it will hold onto its value for quite some time.
1) swappable battery yes, in time when im off day at home i can simply plug out my battery, plugged in the laptop all day, then when its time to work simply plug back the charged battery 2) reasonable spec, make the panel as an option, whether ips, lcd, oled, miniled or different resolution, not all people would like to use 4k panel on 16inch screen, most of us still ok with 1080/1200. this can cut the overall cost of the laptop make it more reasonable.
I feel these machines are more of a novelty at this price and quality than a model for which the industry should strive for. Some of the comments saying, 'this isn't for normal people' confirms this. Basically laptop legos for DIY tech enthusiasts. I'm all for modularity, but it comes with hits to form factor and cost. Making something user upgradeable means the skill floor is a lot lower so you have to introduce things like magnets as seen here, daughter boards, and pogo pins. You could argue that it creates more waste given the extra amount of materials to make something modular. I think the true goal is in the middle with reparability. Something a skilled user or third-party technician can repair without special tools, but with minimal impacts to cost and form factor.
It takes time. It's the first step to make it mainstream. And if it is, it will surely get cheaper. It's a quite young company. I see it the same way though
Amazing review, as always! A few questions: 1) How did you measure the TDP in the different power plan modes? (19:07) 2) How long does the battery last in the YT playback test if the laptop is in efficiency mode? (21:37) Thank you in advance!
Good concept but all that modularity falls flat as long as you're stuck with a mediocre or otherwise unsuitable laptop screen. There needs to be several screen types and screen resolutions to choose from, including high refresh rate mini-LED and OLED screens.
Modularity is the primary reason why I've stuck to using desktop PCs my whole my and never bothered to get a laptop because they always have been use and throw type of computers for the most part, but this could change that completely.
I own the 13 inch 13th gen and it seems like a better buy to me. I really enjoy the full metal keyboard deck that keeps things premium feeling. I plan to get an external GPU enclosure for mine eventually so I don't have to sacrifice too much in a docked experience. Even without the customizability of the keyboard, I feel the 13 inch makes more sense. Love your videos.
The biggest reason I went with my framework 13 is for the upgradability. While I agree there are options that offer greater performance. But we've got to show the big box computer brands that this IS important to us. Therefore, to keep our business, it needs to be important to them, too. And even if the company folds in a few years, our upgrade options with the big box companies are the same as they ever were, buy a new one.
Refine yes, slimming it down is unlikely. The size is the screen size plus the required bezel. And since they're not going to do bezeless because they're not swappable that's pretty much it there. As for the height, it's a similar situation. The business model isn't the mainstream trend of slimming and swapping for less functionality and less repairability. If you want a smaller laptop get a 13.
I have the fw13 and regardless I will be purchasing this laptop. FW as a company is amazing and I do love that. Also considering I can choose when I can upgrade is amazing.
Honestly I would like to see combo ports. One possibility is only charging usbc combined with headphone jack. And mine you I hate already the combination headphone+mic modul. It should be 2 jacks, separate mic.
Awesome review. You covered every part of the laptop I was interested in. I'll be keeping my eye on future 16 and it's exciting to think where they could take it.
I really love the idea to pay more up front to pay much less later for performance upgrades. But currently almost everything around the screen is a deal breaker for me. The chin, the display itself, the size it forces compared to other 16". I can live with some of the build quality stuff, but the screen design needs to be closer to something like the XPS Series.
Excellent laptop. If anything, i hope Framework pushes the major OEMs to swing back towards repairability a bit more. Make access to the mainboard easier, replaceable ram, SSD, and battery as standard, make the screen easier where you dont need to heat up glue, and power port repairability. They dont need to make everything replaceable to the extent of Framework's, but at least basic stuff. I know many laptops are this way, but they are becoming more rare, especially on the high end. Anyway, just want to see more repairability in general for others, and Framework i hope succeeds
Framework are a breath of fresh air, they're doing something completely different; and by doing so are challenging the norms of the laptop industry. I've worked in IT for nearly 30 years and have used every large manufactorers laptops pretty much throughout that time. I'm so bored with them, even Apple's MacBook. There is always going to be downsides, and no one product is going to be perfect. But in the age of challengers, such as Linux, Framework devices such as these allow me to buy what I can afford at the time, and then buy upgrades down the line. They also activley support development of the hardware components with the open source communuity and the ever growing Linux community. Whats not to like? What I really like, is the ability to fix/repair/replace parts and components myself. I'm so fedup of having to call a support number (Dell, Lenovo & HP I'm looking at you directly) waste time trying to convince someone that yes, there really is a problem, and no, I'm not just going to re-install the OS. Finally, I can just order the part that I know needs to be replaced. I really hope business small and large take advantage of Framework and go all in with them! Also, on the wifi side of things, this isn't just a Framework/AMD issue, there are a number of wifi adapters that don't have Windows support with the generic Windows installer. Just get a $30 USB-C Ethernet adapter or even one of those small USB-C hubs that have Ethernet and USB-A and HDMI, you'd be amazed how often you'll use it. Also, the joy of this is you can always just swap the wifi card out for whatever your own preference is! I was very suprised to see the thermal efficency of the review unit, thats got to be a really good thing, and I think it shows that Framework have some good plans for the future. OEMs should be scared/worried, especially Apple, who go out of their way to produce nothing but e-waste with all of their products.
I had the exact same XPS Model! Maybe one up or down. I loved that thing, I still have it. Removable battery, I bought a second and did the same thing and the battery being a stand was nice. Mine had the 5.1 Surround speakers and I love those speakers even now. It makes me sad at what laptop speaker options we have now. That's one of my biggest priorities and the options are slim. The fact they had a sub woofer in a LAPTOP and it WORKED was amazing. A wonderful experience, my next upgrade I went straight to them and was sad to see they went with the super thin with touch screen emphasis and the speakers were gutted. I've never really considered them recently due to that shift but I'd love to buy a new version of that computer.
As much as I appreciate the idea behind Framework, it is way too expensive imo. I also wonder why they don't offer any expansion modules with double USB A slots. That would help to get rid of an expansion dock.
I think it's because for more than one port, they'd have to also cram in the hardware to make it act like a USB hub, and I don't think that combined with two USB-A ports would fit unless they made it stick out from the body. I could see it happening with two USB-C ports as those take up less space than USB-A, which might make room for a hub controller.
Expecting a laptop to come out with processors that have just been announced less than a month ago is a bit disingenuous, and scaremongering about young companies is also not really fair, this way you will ensure a dearth of innovation in the laptop-space cause the big 5 manufacturers do not seem to be capable of that. The price of the laptop is steep though compared to the competition, but at least it is innovative and upgrade-able, which the competition definitely is not.
The 8040 isn't really an upgrade, unless you want a better NPU. CPU and GPU are identical. On that basis Framework have said they're skipping that generation .
If it was priced to reflect the older chip, then I would agree with you. But this will be priced higher than the new AMD chip, so it is worth mentioning. AI is the future, so a better NPU is definitely a positive and worth upgrading to, IMHO.
@@andyH_England Both versions will be well out of date before AI finds it's feet and does more than a background blur on a webcam! Think the early 3D graphics cards from 30 years ago...
Love the acknowledgement of idea/potential without glossing over the shortcomings that come with this sort of product, very solid review and excited to see Framework's future even more now.
The industry as it currently stands has a giant head start on Framework in terms of price to performance, which curiously doesn't seem to be acknowledged at all here. If you want an easily upgrade-able and more sustainable device, support the manufacturers like Framework that are actually doing it, and the price to performance ratio will eventually be a non-issue. Then perhaps the industry in large part will be forced to follow suit, and that will be a good thing for everyone. Or just keep complaining about price to performance and pretend like Framework should do better in this regard today, when the cost of just about everything is higher early on and naturally goes down after wider adoption.
Imagine a framework 13 with an OLED display, new Ryzen AI chips with hopefully decent iGPU, and full driver support on Linux. I would buy that in a heartbeat
I agree, it's much more about the long-term viability/cost-effectiveness rather than build quality etc. History says this business model is a tough ask, so it just seems far too early to tell if this is a good investment for the average customer.
Well, it’s the past. Got a Siemens Laptop around 2000 that was modular. I could replace CPU and GPU plus all drives (modules) and power supply. There was even a version with replaceable display and one could plug it into a desktop size docking stations with SCSI controller and several PCI slots
Hey, you should read back The Verge's review. There's support for battery modules, the only issue is that it's for the back slot and so you can't have it with the current dedicated GPU offering.
The swappable battery is possible since the pinout is there in the same place where the gpu can now be fitted. This has been known for over half a year and is in the technical documents.
Very cool project which needs to improve in the future. For now I would recommend only 13 inch version, but both version r awesome step towards more sustainability and longevity.
Super idea but it's not at a place that would make me invest that kind of coin for what I get. Still, the buzz continues to pique my interest. Thanks for the super, sympathetic yet critical, review!
24:45 as a person who is currently in process of moving away from using laptop for heavy productivity work, i dont see point of big GPUs in laptops (no i didnt have one, integrated on a Ryzen 7)... put that in a desktop machine. Laptops were always portable devices for lighter load, it has gone too far for me. This, I really like, as an upgrade, though the 13 to work in tandem with the desktop i am about to build. Just documents, browsing, other casual stuff and maybe light Photoshop and Premiere 1080p work.
Canceled my preorder about a month ago. After seeing all the reviews I'm glad I did. I did so for a few reasons (listed in order) 1. I don't use a laptop a huge amount and this one is expensive. 2. The build quality of the screen frame and keyboard are disappointing 3. I'm not actually sure it's going to be cheaper to upgrade in the future rather than just buying two laptops at a cheaper price. If I can buy two laptops for $1500 each, buying a framework for min $2200 + $1000 for a new mobo... that's not cheaper, that's more expensive.
1. If you barely use a laptop then don’t buy and expensive one that is just going to get dusty 2. I don’t have anything to say as I am neutral on this 3. Upgrading it is definitely cheaper than buying a new laptop and will very likely stay that way If you want 1 terabyte storage and currently have 256 gigabyte storage it will only cost $99 and that’s not factoring it the money from selling the old ssd
I already bought the Framework 13 11th gen to support the company and am happy how they are evolving. Keep in mind with the flaws of the 16, the company may develop improvements. They are looking to reduce that flex in the middle keyboard for instance. Looking at Framework 13 upgrades they; improved the speakers improved the camera and mic, improved the screen lid structure to reduce flex improved the hinges to hold the screen up better. So down the line whenever I do buy a 16 inch I bet there will be improvements to the design.
Interesting and commendable approach. It seems very high quality and cool to me. Definitely a desktop replacement rather than a portable device. Thank you!
It’s funny, coming from Mac I don’t find their pricing all that steep. I’d just get it without any RAM, storage and OS and just get those myself. Especially considering most of their Windows competition is pretty bad about honoring warranties / providing spares
The idea is definitely really great, but the the design/build and the pricing sets me off, and I mean the 13" version. I got myself EliteBook 835 G10 7840U/32GB/5G with 2TB Samsung 990 Pro for total of USD1,600, as an upgrade to my G8 5850U/16GB/1TB Samsung 970 Evo Plus. If I could have shelved more I would have gone for ThinkPad T14s or X1 Carbon, which have trackpoint and "A+" keyboard, EliteBook's keyboard is "A" comparability.
@@waragh Motherboard that will cost about USD800-1K, but I'll be able to sell of older notebook and recover some. It is not that I am spending 100% on price for new one.
They're still a relatively smaller company that has a lot of costs to recover. Sometimes "voting with your wallet" is a better investment than simply trying to save another cent with zero regard for the future. Consumers control the market, if you want a repairable computer at a good price, you have to create that reality.
The display is 100% dcpi 3, that’s a better and wider color gamut than Srgb. And why the hell would you want ecc memory when you can use ddr5. Also seriously Radeon pro? That hasn’t existed in a while, there best perform AMD card is the 7900m
@@jitterrypokery1526 uh huh. Radeon Pro is very much in existence. Suggest you look that one up. Perhaps also look up ECC memory. DDR 4 or 5 has nothing to do with it.
@@venteryn2541 oh oki my bad, you can probably connect Radeon pro cards via oculink but as for the ecc memory I am unsure. Would be cool to see if there there was an adapter card for that via the pcie lanes
There are a couple of things that need to happen before I purchase one of these. Intel CPUs and possibly to have an intel GPU module as well (I'd personally prefer to have nvidia GPUs, but I know they're a nightmare to work with). Overall the laptop needs to be slightly smaller and the screen bezel needs to go away. I'm definitely keeping an eye on FRAMEWORK though.
I long ago stopped chasing top tier specs on laptops - it just isn't ever worth it for the money and something new is always around the corner. But creating less e-waste, and avoiding vendor lock-in - that is something I can get behind.
I don't know if this is possible. However, I think it'd be cool if someone took a Frameworks 16" mainboard, and the 16" gpu expansion and made a super slim and compact console like case. Again, I lack the skills and knowledge to make this a reality. But it'd be pretty fun to have a semi custom PC in a slim console form factor.
Given how framework is supposed to work, complaints about the keyboard, trackpad, and even possibly the display, could be moot, right? In theory in a few years or maybe sooner, third-party can take advantage of the open spec to provide alternatives, right? It will be interesting to see how that works out if the company becomes successful enough. Because it seems to me that there are a lot of potential options that could be created to work within this platform. The only limitations would be the physical ones, so for instance, you’re not gonna end up with more than six slide in module positions, the screen isn’t going to get significantly larger. But I would think that somebody could make a screen and bezel combination that could make the screen a little bit taller and give a thinner bezel eventually.
The worst cruticism seems to be the price, and thats understandable. The 16 definitely is being marketed as upgradeable, not mainly just repairable. If it were me, id wait till the next gen 16 comes out then get the current one at a lower price, and also do the same as they upgrade the mainboards over the years. After 4 ir 5 years, theres a Zen 7 or whatever that comes out, upgrade to the Zen 6 board to save money. And perhaps Framework will become popular enough to get vetter bulk pricing
22:15 To be fair nowadays if you have a USB-C PD laptop like a Framework you’re better off using power banks to extend the battery life and that way instead of a unique battery for the laptop you have a battery for everything
1. Rufus is a must... since they didn't include a Windows 11 set up USB key. Thats weird for a custom build. If anything, they should include a few of them (Windows 11, Kali Linus, Prime OS, etc...). 2. Wi-Fi 7 seems weird they didn't include the driver in the UEFI and put the drivers on the installation key... oh yeah... they didn't provide the key :p. 3. The lack of an RJ45/RJ48c port is lame, though it seems they do have it as an option on their website as "ethernet". It seems to be a decent 2.5GBaseT unit, but let's be honest... for a laptop MARKETED on the ability to upgrade at will, you'd like to see a 10GBaseT option for connection to a NAS or home server. What's the point of a "modular" laptop if the "modules" are just the same you'd get with a normal laptop?! AND with LESS waste! They insist on making each module an Nintnedo-ish cartridge design instead of a mini-PCI port. :/ 3. GPU... HARD FAIL. This Framework laptop uses a RX7600S?! That thing gets the snot kicked out of it by LAST generation laptops. My ASUS Creator Q540vj laptop came with an Intel i9-13900H and NVidia RTX 3050 6GB DDR5.... all for $1400... that's LESS than this Framework garbage. Maybe in a year they can figure out how to put a RTX 4060 in this monstrosity... at 50% mark up over the cost of the card due to the extra waste/bracketing they'd have to put on it... at which point you're paying a thousand dollars to put an new GPU with a garbage old processor, ram format, and I/O units. As processors progress, their motherboards have to adapt to new ram formats, I/O formats, and new bus pathways. Trying to design a "modular" laptop is nothing more than an exercise in INCREASING the plastic used to encase each module individually, and increasing the cost, while decreasing the build quality and tolerances. What a complete fail of a product... and ironically they market this magnesium/aluminum/plastic case as "sustainable". Snake Oil.
I love the concept and would love to invest in one but this is still in the early stages and seems like there are still kinks that need to be worked out. Also the price is a bit too high for a laptop. I’d this company manages to stick around for another 5 years I would maybe consider it when the product is more refined and lower in price.
One thing to note is that with a modular system the price will always be higher until it can be subsidized. Likely not this much higher, this is due to them being relatively new tech, manufacturing, and supply and demand. However, most laptop manufacturers are selling you computers knowing they will fail in whatever number of years their testing has shown and that you'll have to buy a whole new laptop. Framework is going for a system where you could feasibly use the same system with different parts for decades. This means they can't rely on let's say once every 5 year 2-3k from you. You might spend 2k the first year and then only 100 over the next 10. You might not really upgrade at all and just fix what's broken. So in general price goes up if less purchases are possible or likely. You get the one big purchase or you get many tiny purchases. In this case their mission statement is that this big investment is a one time thing and then you're in the ecosystem. The price will likely go down over time with better components as first adopters get their systems but it's important to note that the price we're used to is a price that relies on us trashing our old rigs and buying a whole new one every time enough stops working. These companies do not maintain support for laptops past a certain number of years not even selling parts after their support has run out. Framework with this concept would be able to support older laptops and give them the nudges needed to keep up albeit not the fastest rig.
This is a systemic shift and we have to be okay with yes our costs went up some but we have more freedom and can actually service our computer ourself. We don't need to buy a warranty so Dell will choose to service our computer or Apple Care will fix a problem that's $5 for a monthly fee. We don't have to throw away a perfectly good system because the RAM is sauttered on and one stick died. We don't have to fund Windows a new installation fee every time a component failure causes us to upgrade. The tech needs time to develop but that freedom of choice and device is something incredibly rare in today's day and age and something we desperately need back.
The fact it's gaming performance is as good as it is has me floored. I just need the screen to get better and potentially speaker modules for good sound quality and I'd be sold. That being said rooting for them and this systemic change to be a hit to the point major producers in the space today start to have to adapt. We've already seen companies add back previously removed modularity.
Amen to that!
Commenting for the algorithm because I believe this is probably the most important thing about Framework and similar projects. Freedom from various consumer traps which companies keep adding one by one, step by step.
Great analysis 😮
I think you said it perfectly so just commenting so others will see this
Well said man
and I wont be buying this if 3 years down the lane, a gpu upgrade cost 900$
I would very much like modular laptops to be the future. This should have become mainstream years ago.
Became*
It very much looks like a laptop from years ago so i guess they hit their mark.
@@quantumdot7393design is not everything, repairability is better.
The fancy modern design of your MacBook won’t help if something breaks and you have to trash the entire thing cause they’re not serviceable.
Bruh, it came out years ago and tech UA-camrs talked about it a lot already in the past.
@@pyokent
become mainstream=/=become acknowledged by bigger YT channels
I'm fine with the CPU choice, Phoenix was bleeding edge when they announced the product. The Hawk Point 8040 is essentially the same CPU , just with a faster NPU. CPU cores and the GPU are identical to 7040. There's nothing using the NPU apart from some Windows background camera blur effects at the moment.
Framework have said they'll skip this gen, as there's no real world benefit, so the next upgrade will likely be Zen 5.
8040 is noticeably faster than 7040 in tests done on gaming handhelds which offer models with both chips but which are otherwise identical. I don't remember how much exactly, maybe 10% or so.
As a hugging face user, NPUs boosf speed for customized context ai without filter blockers and where internet connectivity is unstable.
Laptop market is a tough one. Competition is fierce and every iteraton users have been losing rights to own a appliance in favor of just consume it and throw away.
Framework's future is challenging.
However, i think it is a company with values we all should root for and it represents a counterweight vision against what the laptop market has been moving lately.
Agreed. My next laptop will be a Framework, even if it's more expensive than a similar laptop from elsewhere, purely because I want to support this move back towards the days of repairability and truly _owning_ your device.
@@benjaminoechsli1941 The Price right now is what's inhibiting me. Not necessarily the price to performance ratio itsself but the price by itself. Its still too high imo. Im willing to pay a bit of a premium for what you get considering its upgradable but right now its too high for me. My general principles is Reparability of any product shouldn't come at a premium.
Just a note, Hawk Point (8040) is basically just Phoenix (7040) but with an NPU. Framework really isn't missing that much by using Phoenix.
Both have NPUs, Hawk Point's NPU is just 60% faster (I think they are actually the same NPU but Hawk Point's NPU is being run at higher clock speeds).
@@kylereis7854 If it;'s just higher clock speeds and no actual architectural improvements, then there really is no reason to upgrade from Phoenix, especially if that user was lucky enough to get a 7940HS.
Also, it has yet to be released, and no other laptop uses it either. The Framework team has just as much chance of creating and integrating a new processor as any other laptop company has of creating a new laptop for it.
@@ColeBerkley Actually, the Asus ROG Zephyrus G14 and Razer Blade 14 are confirmed to be using it. That being said, they aren't out yet afaik.
@@cameronbosch1213 He is not understanding it.
We love the minimal Nvidia chips on low power.
he needs to play games, please buy the OMEN only for that ! Alienware good build ?
Don't forget one of the best parts about Framework: official support for Fedora Linux, this laptop is as open as it gets! 💙
Yeah, that's one of the biggest reasons why I bought one!
Nobody outside of your tiny fanboy niche cares about Fedora.
@@bearzilla2462 *Are you sure about that?*
Steam gaming is bigger on Linux than on macOS.
Running Fedora 39 with hyprland and just loving it. Hope framework comes to India soon. Keeping my fingers crossed.
@@sourabhpatel7952 Kispe chala raha hai bhai?
My framework 13 is the first laptop in ages that I really love (last years I had the top notch macbook pros).
With the framework it feels like there is a personal relationship, the macbook always felt too boring :D
As a taller person I love it that the monitor is standing higher, it is easier to work with your laptop that way. It is one of the reasons why I dislike working with a laptop, that monitor being so low. Generally speaking laptops are quite unergonomical.
As a visually impaired person that is also taller, double yay for this honestly. Makes for much better ergonomics.
I wish there was less lid flex though...
I had the same thoughts. I'll take the ergonomics and repairability any day
Excelent point.
The first thing i thought on seeing the spacers was that it'd be fantastic to have speaker spacer options. Would make The laptop a media powerhouse !
Now imagine having the speakers all on the right side. Why? Because!
Well sure, but if you're wanting real acoustics, let alone actual bass, you're just not going to get it with flat laptop speakers that have little to no air volume. You're way better off dragging around portable speakers along with your computer.
With the shallow space, your be looking at high pitch, treble enhancers at best I think. Good for spoken word at least
Sorry, I just don't see a few perfectly sensible trade-offs as negatives. This is the same argument as the decades-old US versus foreign built cars. Japanese and European cars had this false perception of superior build quality when in reality, car culture controlled the market. US manufacturers had to design their cars to be maintained and fixed by average owners using standard store-bought tools or they just weren't going to sell. A half-inch bezel or a bit of keyboard flex is not bad build quality; it's just part and parcel of a laptop you can build and fix yourself.
It's not a reason to not buy it but it's nice to know beforehand. I always find it suspicious when someone does a review and mentions nothing negative because there are always tradeoffs
I feel like this laptop is the Skyrim of laptops (not just gaming laptops). It's a modder's dream and it will be the modders who will bring out the full potential of this laptop. Framework seems to have done a great job to make sure that the bones are solid and easy to work with. As long as they keep refining the base builds and the fit-and-finish of the parts I feel like the open-source community can just run with this thing and make it brilliant.
I've got a preorder for the 16 - group 4. There was only one thought on my mind when I got it: "can I fix it *when* it breaks." I've spent so much on workstation laptop computers over the years - they all suffered from the same failure points. Very frustrating. So as long as the parts are available I think I will be very, very satisfied with this machine. And if I can upgrade down the line? Win. I know this is a very *niche* set of priorities, so YMMV.
Regarding your old boards, you may not have noticed that there is already an ecosystem which allows you to take your old processor and put it into a new housing. I don’t know if framework is doing it themselves, but third parties and open source developers are creating it. So you can take that old processor, put it into a housing, and use it for another application likea home server, or maybe eventually even to run a raid, what have you.
It's always the same concerns, the price and the company. It's very clear that they are a small company and no one else as done this before so they have to do the design, engineering and anything else on their own and that costs money. So of course the first laptops they launch will be more expensive than the competition, and they still offer good specs. It has been almost four years I think since the FW13, they have fulfilled their promise so far and the vast majority of the customers have been satisfied, so I wouldn't be worried.
People I buying this for modularity, upgradability and reparability, not because it has the best build and quality materials. If it's too expensive right now lets just wait a bit for it to be more affordable.
I'm buying one partly because I want to see this idea succeed, and to see Framework grow large enough that they can sell future laptops for less money so more people can afford one. I'm fortunate enough that I can justify the price, and hope that one day everyone that can't will be able to get one.
@@ilikepizza1275 Fair enough, but there are still limits. I don't need one of these, but, if I did, I'd be willing to pay a premium for repairability and long-term hardware support. There are still limits to this. When a machine with similar or better performance can be had for half of the price, the Framework becomes very hard to justify. Especially since most gaming laptops (the competition for the 16" model) already have user-replaceable RAM, storage, and batteries.
@@ilikepizza1275 I have an old XPS 15 and when I eventually have to get a new one in the near future I'm thinking of going with a Framework, as I also want this to succeed. Imagine if more went fully or at least partially modular, then there could come some standard which were uniform and would allow one to mix and match components from across the vendors, a benefit for all.
Also when enough starts to adapt into Framework and people start to want to upgrade, then it should be cheaper for those who doesn't have much to upgrade, as you could probably get a better used component than the one you have, as someone might have upgraded to the newest component.
Don’t forget about the factory seconds version which is exactly the same but made from excess parts which is way cheaper so the cost depends if you want something completely brand new or not
For most laptops you can that that if it's a software issue, then it can be improved; But with the framework, even hardware issues can be improved 😆
Also the fixes don't necessarily need to come from framework, someone from the community could create their own modules, like a better keyboard 🤔
Joaco
I replaced most parts in my HP Elitebook, unable to replace the GPU.
never will replace the Keyboard, HP Elitebooks are the best.
If i need a faster GPU, i need a new CPU too, replace the Laptop works better for me.
You ever did any parts swaps ?
I do love this concept, fancy people will love it, keep upgrading it !
Replacing is really really cool. That's why I have an eye on framework. It makes it so easy for the community to make and sell their own solutions.
how does tech guys don't know about rufus?
either they aint windows or tech guys
How many don't know that Rufus isn't needed to make a Windows installer?
Honestly, I thought the same. A great program from that one developer, it has been the go to to install Linux for over a decade and now that Microsoft has easened up a bit it also is the better way to install Windows. Basically Microsoft blocked it (it might or might not be that it was the intention, I won't speculate) for the longest time but now that you can just download a Windows-ISO this problem has been solved.
I guess when all you do is windows based laptops, making a boot drive isnt really something you do very often. I personally used windows for nearly a decade and didnt come across rufus until I decided to mess around with Linux.
@@JoeNokers The problem was that MS refused to put an ISO on their website so an independent tool like Rufus or Etcher couldn't install it.
One thing with 7700S is yes, it is more like a 4060 performance wise (but faster most of time), but look at those 1% lows, it gets closer to 4070 a lot of time for those.
maybe consistency and reliability arent too matter for you then grab em, theyre good, better mostly
Very cool idea BUT I just can't justify the price to performance and fit/finish. That said it's something I'll keep an eye on as they introduce new modules to see how upgrading pans out
To be fair, if you go the DIY route these laptops are way cheaper, especially if you choose to buy your RAM/SSDs elsewhere.
I plan on buying one, and by getting them from another seller I’ll save a bit less than €500. Since the DIY edition is around €350 cheaper than the pre-built, I’ll have saved around €850, making the price-to-performance way better.
For my taste design looks good, also that modular approach is very cool thing.
Will i ever replace the GPU, replace the system better ?
My advice if you would consider buying Framework: buy the 'DIY'-version, it costs $300 less and you can assemble it within 10 minutes. It also comes without Windows which I consider an advantage (not paying for Windows is great because I don't use it, also not unnessecary writes on the SSD so nice though the impact is small).
If you got a micro center nearby don't for get to get ram and storage from there, cheeper and MC it another peace of the puzzle we need to implement right to repair.
@@ceterfoJust make sure the RAM does 5600MT with JEDEC timings....
Plus even if you use Windows keys are cheap and you can even use MAS
also there are hacky ways to trick windows into activating without a liscense key so the only problem is the instillation media.
Love to watch this video. Beautifully edited, Warm and even audio, good narrative pace, empathetic treatment, cosy lighting.... Congrats. Oh, and really relevant topic...
If framework shave of those bezels they can crame an option 17" Display!
I did the math and only 16.4" would be possible while still having enough of a bezel to be able to screw the screen in. If they glued the screen on (which is against their mission) they could potentially achieve 16.7".
However Framework is limited by the displays already being produced. Getting a completely custom 16.3" display would be really expensive so they went with a slightly tweaked (slightly tweaked is a lot cheaper than completely custom) variant of the second largest panel already being produced that could be fit.
The reason they went with the 2nd largest panel they could is because the largest panel already being produced that would fit is much lower refresh rate (60 Hz instead of 165 Hz), lower brightness (330 cd/m² vs 500 cd/m²), and reduced color space (74% DCI-P3 vs 100%). So they choose to use a 2.6% smaller panel that they could've in order to get much better other specs.
It's possible my math was off, tomorrow when my FW16 is supposed to arrive I'll take measurements of the actual area available for the screen and if it can fit a larger screen than I calculated I'll update this comment.
A slighty-thicker-than-average bezel is very low on my list of criticisms. But then again, I don't treat my computer as fashion accessory.
And and an extra 45Wh battery option for the expansion bay!
@@kylereis7854 good observation.
@@handlemonium Why only 45 Wh? Let's shoot for more!
On the Framework forums there have been several discussions about this. Framework's CEO suggested that either five 18650 cells or four 21700 cells could potentially be an option.
Five 18650 cells would fit within the same form factor as the existing GPU module. The largest 18650 cells are slightly over 12 Wh so five calculates to an impressive 60 Wh!
Four 21700 cells would require a slightly larger enclosure but the largest 21700 cells pack slightly over 20 Wh each so four calculates to 80 Wh!
So 60-80 Wh of capacity could potentially be added through the expansion bay. Nothing has been officially announced by Framework, but given the amount of discussion that has occurred on the Framework forums (including by Framework's CEO) I think it is very likely that either Framework will make one or at the very least some community members will (it sounds like some people are already working on it).
The early adopter tax is rough. It's certainly a step in the right direction for consumer upgradability and reparability, but the price point is currently unfeasible.
i purchased this for modularity alone. It's extremely easy to open up clean and repair.
Extremely expensive but I'm hoping this'll become a laptop standard in the future. I would rather have my laptops designed with reparability and upgrades in mind. Tired of electronics with difficult to swap batteries, soldered memory and storage with hard to source replacement parts.
5:34 this shouldn't be any issue, just pop in any 6, and if need any just SWITCH THEM OUT. This is actually why I am considering this. I just learned about this thing just yesterday, like yea wow!
Compliments to Frameworks for changing settings for the keyboard in the firmware! This is a great thing, being able to consistently change it no matter what OS the person uses and not having software overhead for that. One little point of criticism: I would like to have the touchpad on the right or left side, not in front of the keyboard, that way it doesn't get in the way and touchpads really don't need to be this big, just increase the mouse sensitivity and 20% of that size is plenty. Having said that, I woiuld not change the depth of the laptop (distance from the front to the monitor) because then the monitor gets uncomfortably close, I am ok with some 'dead space' for ergonomics.
there will probably be a touchpad sidepanel made. the interface is usb :-)
7:00 Funny thing about that. During Win11’s earlier days, Microsoft didn’t have drivers for newer Intel WiFi cards. Intel actually made a post in Nuc support for you to run oobe\bypass to to skip the internet connection requirement for windows 11. And this is INTEL we are talking about
This is something to watch. And, I'm cheering for it to be successful ... either itself or by virtue of reforming other laptop industry players. Personally, I want to see more if I am to buy in when it is time for my next laptop purchase.
Tbh their $3000 laptop have the same spec as a $1500 laptop and like Dave2D said, you could just buy a $1500 laptop today and in 5 years buy another $1500 laptop with a much better spec, new chassis, screen and more, i been using my laptop for 3 years and there are a bunch of scratches, dinks on my screen and chassis, not sure if i want to keep using it assume that i have upgraded it with a new CPU, GPU. Also passing your old laptop to a friend or sell it is easier than selling its modular component
Imagine you bought the Dell XPS laptops 5 years ago. Loved the devices but when you went to buy a new Dell XPS device it was twice as expensive with worse thermals and no function keys. Then it becomes clear why modular laptops are better. The $3000 modular laptop is ALWAYS going to be a better investment because a company isn't going to force you to deal with a crappy hardware feature that you don't want.
Really impressed by what the framework achieved here. To this day my fav small-size laptop is Framework 13. But unfortunately, I cannot say the same for 16. But as a concept, they have achieved what they set out to achieve. An upgradable modular laptop! Hopefully, the trend will pick up and more players enter the market. Size to power, cost to power ratio and general utility of modules is missing/lacking, and hopefully, we reach there soon.
what's amazing about the framework laptops are that the motherboard in itself is essentially a single board computer. there's already a community of builders using the older motherboards as a powerful SBC or a small desktop. the reason big companies failed with modular laptops is that 1. they were afraid to hamstring their other lineups and 2. it was often proprietary and therefore solely or mainly depended on first party modules. all framework components are either existing industry standards, and if such thing doesn't exist (like the expansion bay), they publish the design. this is a very smart strategy; they don't have to support everything, rather they can invite individuals or even other companies to offload some of that burden. it's replicating the IBM compatible desktop market. and the motherboard being modular and having many usb-c ports means that it has a resale value on its own. as it's already quite powerful while being (relatively) low power it will hold onto its value for quite some time.
1) swappable battery yes, in time when im off day at home i can simply plug out my battery, plugged in the laptop all day, then when its time to work simply plug back the charged battery
2) reasonable spec, make the panel as an option, whether ips, lcd, oled, miniled or different resolution, not all people would like to use 4k panel on 16inch screen, most of us still ok with 1080/1200. this can cut the overall cost of the laptop make it more reasonable.
I feel these machines are more of a novelty at this price and quality than a model for which the industry should strive for. Some of the comments saying, 'this isn't for normal people' confirms this. Basically laptop legos for DIY tech enthusiasts.
I'm all for modularity, but it comes with hits to form factor and cost. Making something user upgradeable means the skill floor is a lot lower so you have to introduce things like magnets as seen here, daughter boards, and pogo pins. You could argue that it creates more waste given the extra amount of materials to make something modular.
I think the true goal is in the middle with reparability. Something a skilled user or third-party technician can repair without special tools, but with minimal impacts to cost and form factor.
It takes time. It's the first step to make it mainstream. And if it is, it will surely get cheaper. It's a quite young company. I see it the same way though
Amazing review, as always!
A few questions:
1) How did you measure the TDP in the different power plan modes? (19:07)
2) How long does the battery last in the YT playback test if the laptop is in efficiency mode? (21:37)
Thank you in advance!
Everyone needs to buy one as just wanting laptops to become modular isn’t enough.
Good concept but all that modularity falls flat as long as you're stuck with a mediocre or otherwise unsuitable laptop screen. There needs to be several screen types and screen resolutions to choose from, including high refresh rate mini-LED and OLED screens.
Count me in, I thought they will introduce this screen modularity at their FIRST IMPRESSION unit, but.. I guess we have to wait FW 16 2026 or so.
Modularity is the primary reason why I've stuck to using desktop PCs my whole my and never bothered to get a laptop because they always have been use and throw type of computers for the most part, but this could change that completely.
I own the 13 inch 13th gen and it seems like a better buy to me. I really enjoy the full metal keyboard deck that keeps things premium feeling. I plan to get an external GPU enclosure for mine eventually so I don't have to sacrifice too much in a docked experience. Even without the customizability of the keyboard, I feel the 13 inch makes more sense. Love your videos.
The biggest reason I went with my framework 13 is for the upgradability. While I agree there are options that offer greater performance. But we've got to show the big box computer brands that this IS important to us. Therefore, to keep our business, it needs to be important to them, too. And even if the company folds in a few years, our upgrade options with the big box companies are the same as they ever were, buy a new one.
If they manage to slim down and refine their designs I could possibly see myself getting one in a few years.
Refine yes, slimming it down is unlikely. The size is the screen size plus the required bezel. And since they're not going to do bezeless because they're not swappable that's pretty much it there. As for the height, it's a similar situation. The business model isn't the mainstream trend of slimming and swapping for less functionality and less repairability. If you want a smaller laptop get a 13.
@@newolde1 Yeah I am not too worried about portability Im mainly referring to how bulky it looks and is.
@@SirBlicks I'll never understand those that choose form over function, especially for a tool. Alas to each their own.
I have the fw13 and regardless I will be purchasing this laptop. FW as a company is amazing and I do love that. Also considering I can choose when I can upgrade is amazing.
I definitely will buy Framework laptop for my next laptop.
Honestly I would like to see combo ports. One possibility is only charging usbc combined with headphone jack. And mine you I hate already the combination headphone+mic modul. It should be 2 jacks, separate mic.
Awesome review. You covered every part of the laptop I was interested in. I'll be keeping my eye on future 16 and it's exciting to think where they could take it.
Dude, you have to be specific. It didn't come with these parts, your ordered it with these parts.
I really love the idea to pay more up front to pay much less later for performance upgrades.
But currently almost everything around the screen is a deal breaker for me. The chin, the display itself, the size it forces compared to other 16".
I can live with some of the build quality stuff, but the screen design needs to be closer to something like the XPS Series.
It has a retro futuristic look. Like the Seiko Ripley.
Excellent laptop. If anything, i hope Framework pushes the major OEMs to swing back towards repairability a bit more. Make access to the mainboard easier, replaceable ram, SSD, and battery as standard, make the screen easier where you dont need to heat up glue, and power port repairability. They dont need to make everything replaceable to the extent of Framework's, but at least basic stuff. I know many laptops are this way, but they are becoming more rare, especially on the high end. Anyway, just want to see more repairability in general for others, and Framework i hope succeeds
@6:37 the fact that Framework makes you use Rufus to create a bootable Windows drive to install shows how much this laptop is meant for enthusiasts.
You can always get the Framework pre-assembled and with Windows already installed.
I wish they came up with something sized between the 13 and the 16. If the 13 had 6 slots I'd get that for sure but the 16 is too big
Framework are a breath of fresh air, they're doing something completely different; and by doing so are challenging the norms of the laptop industry. I've worked in IT for nearly 30 years and have used every large manufactorers laptops pretty much throughout that time. I'm so bored with them, even Apple's MacBook.
There is always going to be downsides, and no one product is going to be perfect. But in the age of challengers, such as Linux, Framework devices such as these allow me to buy what I can afford at the time, and then buy upgrades down the line.
They also activley support development of the hardware components with the open source communuity and the ever growing Linux community. Whats not to like?
What I really like, is the ability to fix/repair/replace parts and components myself. I'm so fedup of having to call a support number (Dell, Lenovo & HP I'm looking at you directly) waste time trying to convince someone that yes, there really is a problem, and no, I'm not just going to re-install the OS. Finally, I can just order the part that I know needs to be replaced.
I really hope business small and large take advantage of Framework and go all in with them!
Also, on the wifi side of things, this isn't just a Framework/AMD issue, there are a number of wifi adapters that don't have Windows support with the generic Windows installer. Just get a $30 USB-C Ethernet adapter or even one of those small USB-C hubs that have Ethernet and USB-A and HDMI, you'd be amazed how often you'll use it. Also, the joy of this is you can always just swap the wifi card out for whatever your own preference is!
I was very suprised to see the thermal efficency of the review unit, thats got to be a really good thing, and I think it shows that Framework have some good plans for the future.
OEMs should be scared/worried, especially Apple, who go out of their way to produce nothing but e-waste with all of their products.
I had the exact same XPS Model! Maybe one up or down. I loved that thing, I still have it. Removable battery, I bought a second and did the same thing and the battery being a stand was nice. Mine had the 5.1 Surround speakers and I love those speakers even now. It makes me sad at what laptop speaker options we have now. That's one of my biggest priorities and the options are slim. The fact they had a sub woofer in a LAPTOP and it WORKED was amazing. A wonderful experience, my next upgrade I went straight to them and was sad to see they went with the super thin with touch screen emphasis and the speakers were gutted. I've never really considered them recently due to that shift but I'd love to buy a new version of that computer.
As much as I appreciate the idea behind Framework, it is way too expensive imo. I also wonder why they don't offer any expansion modules with double USB A slots. That would help to get rid of an expansion dock.
I think it's because for more than one port, they'd have to also cram in the hardware to make it act like a USB hub, and I don't think that combined with two USB-A ports would fit unless they made it stick out from the body. I could see it happening with two USB-C ports as those take up less space than USB-A, which might make room for a hub controller.
this need to be the future of electronic products!
This should have been the default way to ship a consumer laptop a decade+ ago
That Zenbook Duo bouncing around like CRAZY when you type, good god!
This is a very exciting time for computer people everywhere.
We can skip windows network setup using command prompt and no need to use rufus.
Expecting a laptop to come out with processors that have just been announced less than a month ago is a bit disingenuous, and scaremongering about young companies is also not really fair, this way you will ensure a dearth of innovation in the laptop-space cause the big 5 manufacturers do not seem to be capable of that.
The price of the laptop is steep though compared to the competition, but at least it is innovative and upgrade-able, which the competition definitely is not.
The 8040 isn't really an upgrade, unless you want a better NPU. CPU and GPU are identical. On that basis Framework have said they're skipping that generation .
If it was priced to reflect the older chip, then I would agree with you. But this will be priced higher than the new AMD chip, so it is worth mentioning. AI is the future, so a better NPU is definitely a positive and worth upgrading to, IMHO.
@@andyH_England Both versions will be well out of date before AI finds it's feet and does more than a background blur on a webcam!
Think the early 3D graphics cards from 30 years ago...
@@johnroberts2905what are you on about? AI can create videos now.
Love the acknowledgement of idea/potential without glossing over the shortcomings that come with this sort of product, very solid review and excited to see Framework's future even more now.
First time viewer. Excellent review! Like and subbed.
Great review, particularly the Conclusion. I agree with everything said...cool idea, but not really sure how this will work in the medium term.
The industry as it currently stands has a giant head start on Framework in terms of price to performance, which curiously doesn't seem to be acknowledged at all here.
If you want an easily upgrade-able and more sustainable device, support the manufacturers like Framework that are actually doing it, and the price to performance ratio will eventually be a non-issue.
Then perhaps the industry in large part will be forced to follow suit, and that will be a good thing for everyone.
Or just keep complaining about price to performance and pretend like Framework should do better in this regard today, when the cost of just about everything is higher early on and naturally goes down after wider adoption.
Imagine a framework 13 with an OLED display, new Ryzen AI chips with hopefully decent iGPU, and full driver support on Linux. I would buy that in a heartbeat
I agree, it's much more about the long-term viability/cost-effectiveness rather than build quality etc. History says this business model is a tough ask, so it just seems far too early to tell if this is a good investment for the average customer.
Well, it’s the past. Got a Siemens Laptop around 2000 that was modular. I could replace CPU and GPU plus all drives (modules) and power supply. There was even a version with replaceable display and one could plug it into a desktop size docking stations with SCSI controller and several PCI slots
Hey, you should read back The Verge's review. There's support for battery modules, the only issue is that it's for the back slot and so you can't have it with the current dedicated GPU offering.
I would love a speaker module next to the keyboard, just to get some better audio quality.
The swappable battery is possible since the pinout is there in the same place where the gpu can now be fitted. This has been known for over half a year and is in the technical documents.
Very cool project which needs to improve in the future. For now I would recommend only 13 inch version, but both version r awesome step towards more sustainability and longevity.
Rufus is sooo much better than trying to install it onto the drive manually over and over and over..
Super idea but it's not at a place that would make me invest that kind of coin for what I get. Still, the buzz continues to pique my interest. Thanks for the super, sympathetic yet critical, review!
24:45 as a person who is currently in process of moving away from using laptop for heavy productivity work, i dont see point of big GPUs in laptops (no i didnt have one, integrated on a Ryzen 7)... put that in a desktop machine. Laptops were always portable devices for lighter load, it has gone too far for me. This, I really like, as an upgrade, though the 13 to work in tandem with the desktop i am about to build. Just documents, browsing, other casual stuff and maybe light Photoshop and Premiere 1080p work.
Canceled my preorder about a month ago. After seeing all the reviews I'm glad I did. I did so for a few reasons (listed in order)
1. I don't use a laptop a huge amount and this one is expensive.
2. The build quality of the screen frame and keyboard are disappointing
3. I'm not actually sure it's going to be cheaper to upgrade in the future rather than just buying two laptops at a cheaper price. If I can buy two laptops for $1500 each, buying a framework for min $2200 + $1000 for a new mobo... that's not cheaper, that's more expensive.
1. If you barely use a laptop then don’t buy and expensive one that is just going to get dusty
2. I don’t have anything to say as I am neutral on this
3. Upgrading it is definitely cheaper than buying a new laptop and will very likely stay that way
If you want 1 terabyte storage and currently have 256 gigabyte storage it will only cost $99 and that’s not factoring it the money from selling the old ssd
I already bought the Framework 13 11th gen to support the company and am happy how they are evolving. Keep in mind with the flaws of the 16, the company may develop improvements. They are looking to reduce that flex in the middle keyboard for instance. Looking at Framework 13 upgrades they;
improved the speakers
improved the camera and mic,
improved the screen lid structure to reduce flex
improved the hinges to hold the screen up better.
So down the line whenever I do buy a 16 inch I bet there will be improvements to the design.
Interesting and commendable approach. It seems very high quality and cool to me. Definitely a desktop replacement rather than a portable device. Thank you!
My next laptop will be this. Incredible.
Instead use a hot swappable battery, i'll recommend you to use a modern solution, like good powerbank USB C
It’s funny, coming from Mac I don’t find their pricing all that steep. I’d just get it without any RAM, storage and OS and just get those myself.
Especially considering most of their Windows competition is pretty bad about honoring warranties / providing spares
The idea is definitely really great, but the the design/build and the pricing sets me off, and I mean the 13" version. I got myself EliteBook 835 G10 7840U/32GB/5G with 2TB Samsung 990 Pro for total of USD1,600, as an upgrade to my G8 5850U/16GB/1TB Samsung 970 Evo Plus. If I could have shelved more I would have gone for ThinkPad T14s or X1 Carbon, which have trackpoint and "A+" keyboard, EliteBook's keyboard is "A" comparability.
But the next time you wan't a new uṕgrade you need to buy a new computer but with the framework you only need to buy a new motherboard.
@@waragh Motherboard that will cost about USD800-1K, but I'll be able to sell of older notebook and recover some. It is not that I am spending 100% on price for new one.
They're still a relatively smaller company that has a lot of costs to recover. Sometimes "voting with your wallet" is a better investment than simply trying to save another cent with zero regard for the future.
Consumers control the market, if you want a repairable computer at a good price, you have to create that reality.
I would like to see framework build a workstation version. Radeon pro, ecc memory, quality display for 100% sRGB etc.
The display is 100% dcpi 3, that’s a better and wider color gamut than Srgb. And why the hell would you want ecc memory when you can use ddr5.
Also seriously Radeon pro? That hasn’t existed in a while, there best perform AMD card is the 7900m
@@jitterrypokery1526 uh huh. Radeon Pro is very much in existence. Suggest you look that one up. Perhaps also look up ECC memory. DDR 4 or 5 has nothing to do with it.
@@jitterrypokery1526 also, look up how color spaces work.
@@venteryn2541 oh oki my bad, you can probably connect Radeon pro cards via oculink but as for the ecc memory I am unsure. Would be cool to see if there there was an adapter card for that via the pcie lanes
Really need that NSX in my life...
Anxiously waiting the FW16. I ordered min late Sept 23, and now the are finally starting shipping..
There are a couple of things that need to happen before I purchase one of these.
Intel CPUs and possibly to have an intel GPU module as well (I'd personally prefer to have nvidia GPUs, but I know they're a nightmare to work with).
Overall the laptop needs to be slightly smaller and the screen bezel needs to go away.
I'm definitely keeping an eye on FRAMEWORK though.
I long ago stopped chasing top tier specs on laptops - it just isn't ever worth it for the money and something new is always around the corner. But creating less e-waste, and avoiding vendor lock-in - that is something I can get behind.
I hope all successful tech UA-camrs buy one of these to help fund the project
I don't know if this is possible. However, I think it'd be cool if someone took a Frameworks 16" mainboard, and the 16" gpu expansion and made a super slim and compact console like case. Again, I lack the skills and knowledge to make this a reality. But it'd be pretty fun to have a semi custom PC in a slim console form factor.
I wold like framework to release future model that easily change beetween laptop and handheld or tablet form. That would be awesome 😊
Great concept and modularity, if the price can be lowered as time passes and other companies jump on it then more will buy.
Given how framework is supposed to work, complaints about the keyboard, trackpad, and even possibly the display, could be moot, right? In theory in a few years or maybe sooner, third-party can take advantage of the open spec to provide alternatives, right?
It will be interesting to see how that works out if the company becomes successful enough. Because it seems to me that there are a lot of potential options that could be created to work within this platform. The only limitations would be the physical ones, so for instance, you’re not gonna end up with more than six slide in module positions, the screen isn’t going to get significantly larger. But I would think that somebody could make a screen and bezel combination that could make the screen a little bit taller and give a thinner bezel eventually.
The worst cruticism seems to be the price, and thats understandable. The 16 definitely is being marketed as upgradeable, not mainly just repairable. If it were me, id wait till the next gen 16 comes out then get the current one at a lower price, and also do the same as they upgrade the mainboards over the years. After 4 ir 5 years, theres a Zen 7 or whatever that comes out, upgrade to the Zen 6 board to save money. And perhaps Framework will become popular enough to get vetter bulk pricing
22:15 To be fair nowadays if you have a USB-C PD laptop like a Framework you’re better off using power banks to extend the battery life and that way instead of a unique battery for the laptop you have a battery for everything
Thanks for the video, was planning to buy one but after I saw performance to the USD Framwork 16 is not worth the money.
1. Rufus is a must... since they didn't include a Windows 11 set up USB key. Thats weird for a custom build. If anything, they should include a few of them (Windows 11, Kali Linus, Prime OS, etc...).
2. Wi-Fi 7 seems weird they didn't include the driver in the UEFI and put the drivers on the installation key... oh yeah... they didn't provide the key :p.
3. The lack of an RJ45/RJ48c port is lame, though it seems they do have it as an option on their website as "ethernet". It seems to be a decent 2.5GBaseT unit, but let's be honest... for a laptop MARKETED on the ability to upgrade at will, you'd like to see a 10GBaseT option for connection to a NAS or home server. What's the point of a "modular" laptop if the "modules" are just the same you'd get with a normal laptop?!
AND with LESS waste! They insist on making each module an Nintnedo-ish cartridge design instead of a mini-PCI port. :/
3. GPU... HARD FAIL. This Framework laptop uses a RX7600S?! That thing gets the snot kicked out of it by LAST generation laptops. My ASUS Creator Q540vj laptop came with an Intel i9-13900H and NVidia RTX 3050 6GB DDR5.... all for $1400... that's LESS than this Framework garbage. Maybe in a year they can figure out how to put a RTX 4060 in this monstrosity... at 50% mark up over the cost of the card due to the extra waste/bracketing they'd have to put on it... at which point you're paying a thousand dollars to put an new GPU with a garbage old processor, ram format, and I/O units.
As processors progress, their motherboards have to adapt to new ram formats, I/O formats, and new bus pathways. Trying to design a "modular" laptop is nothing more than an exercise in INCREASING the plastic used to encase each module individually, and increasing the cost, while decreasing the build quality and tolerances.
What a complete fail of a product... and ironically they market this magnesium/aluminum/plastic case as "sustainable". Snake Oil.
Future of Desktop PC ✅, YES IT IS
Modular laptops like this are really interesting.
Love the philosophy. I want to support it, just more than I’m willing to spend.
I fell in love with the Framework 😮
Maybe it will be my next laptop
I love the concept and would love to invest in one but this is still in the early stages and seems like there are still kinks that need to be worked out. Also the price is a bit too high for a laptop. I’d this company manages to stick around for another 5 years I would maybe consider it when the product is more refined and lower in price.
yeah very niche. we would need more competitors with a set standards in order to see prices come down.