I noticed when I woke up, saw that you had fairly effectively neutralized their impact, then figured it would be worth it to actually report them. And stop judging my days-long naps. I'm storing in my bronzemind.
I'm absolutely thrilled that you're talkin about the investiture on sel, the emperor's soul is my absolute favorite work in the cosmere and forgery is easily my favorite system.
@@TheCosmerenaut particularly the characters in The Emotions behind them I think are some of Brandon Sanderson's best work. Like I fell in love with the emperor's Soul when I heard it in audiobook and then I just had to get the Anthology that it was it and performance in the audio book was just fantastic. It totally brought these characters to such life and showed such a debt to them it was truly incredible. Like that moment at the end when she's giving the unconscious emperor his soul and she talks about how she knows him she knows his soul, that was just such an incredibly powerful moment for me to read and to hear in the audiobook. as for the magic system I've always been fascinated by Far Eastern religion so stuff like taoism and Shintoism always appealed to me and then you have an anime stuff like the flying ofuda talismans. so I was obviously going to absolutely fall in love with a magic system that was based on Imperial name stamps.
I am very interested to see how Forgery interacts with other magics. My friend got a question confirmed to help with some fanfiction I'm writing, about Forging someone who already has an ability.
I've always been fascinating with knowing the individual history of specific objects (I love old coins for that reason) so being able to change that history is a super cool extension
I didn't realize that it was an "official thing" that the Dor was basically the combined splinters of Devotion and Dominion. So I learned something new! Great job, keep up the great videos!
So at the Starsight Signing last November, Brandon said that there are at least a *dozen* different magic systems on Sel. I guess it makes sense that there are several we haven't seen since there's an entire third continent we haven't seen anything on yet.
I absolutely love all of your Cosmere videos! I am obsessed with this universe and your videos are extremely informative and entertaining. Thank you for making these and keep up the great work!
Welcome back RAFO. So glad you could join us. Selish realmatics will continue to be an easy grab bag for Brandon Sanderson to use in future. I'm so thankful he has a notebook full of magic systems already outlined for him to use. Your video is so great. I'm still giggling about several puns. I wish more people were enthralled with his stories and magic she in the Cosmere.
My guess is that Forton's potions' power dropoff is "calculated" based on where they were made, rather than where they were ingested. The Dakhor also seemed pretty powerful regardless of where we were, and we never really got close to Wyrn's Seat where I presume the center of Dakhor power is. So either the same applies to Dakhor, that the power is defined by where the monk was made rather than where they're located, or they're crazy powerful near the center of power.
That would make sense in terms of the potions; I hadn't considered that. There definitely is a drop-off for Dakhor though, which is why Raoden and crew were able to do more damage to them in Teod, but it's a much slower rate than others. Thinking about it, that could be a result of the relative size of their regional key - if they can pull from a larger area of the Dor, then their area of effect would probably be exponentially greater. If the Fjorden writing system is based on something like the entire coast, that's significantly larger than the comparably tiny region of Arelon.
Just finished Elantris (the last book for me in the Cosmere) and I came straight here to get the breakdown. So glad there's a youtuber like RAFO who can help us understand investiture.
This channel is a beautiful thing. Elantris was the first published Sanderson book I read. But that was years ago and you're making me want to pick it up again!
I found it! I finally found it! Thank you for making a great video. I'm diving in to your content now and I'm happy to see a UA-camr knowledgeable in Brandonverse. Subscribed.
11:03 I read all the books in sel elantris, hope of elantris and the emperor's soul. But I don't remember reading that the imperial fool is hoid (the beggar from elantris)?? Or was it mentioned in another cosmere book ? Ps: I also read Shadow for silence and the final empire (a long time ago)
I really do like the idea that Forton is JUST that good at making potions that he's able to factor in the regional distance to make his potions viable. My headcannon is that he also gives his clients specific directions along with the potion for where to stand while taking it (ie don't take potion until you are at the base of the north facing wall of elantris) or something like that.
I was wondering, if one could conquer, purchase, or otherwise obtain and somehow separate a plot of land on Sel, could you effectively create a new magic system? Would all it require be the perception of the people in it?
Two questions. Why are the potions counted as a way to access the Dor? I never got that impression. And why are bloodsealing and forgery counted as seperate? If you do that than why not count resealing as another, even though it's just forgery used to heal?
Brandon has confirmed that the potions are actually invested, and not just medicinal. So if they contain investiture, and they're made by a native of Sel, it stands to reason that somehow they access the Dor. Bloodsealing and Forgery, while both stamp based, use different symbols and do different things. The basic map of Maipon is contained in every soulstamp, and Bloodsealers must be from Dzhamar, presumably with that nation's topography in their stamps. Since they use different symbols tied to different locations (as well as their vastly different applications), they must be different systems. Resealing still uses the basic symbols of Forgery, and so access the Dor in the same way. It's like how we count pewter allomancy as in the same magic system as zinc - they do different things, but the method for accessing them is the same. It could be argued that Bloodsealing and Forgery ARE part of the same magic system, but if we did that we'd have to include Aon Dor and the Dakhor magic as well - they all access the same source of investiture, just in different ways.
@@TheCosmerenaut Oh. Thanks for finding and answering that comment. I didn't know any of that but it sounds so cool! With the potions especially it makes me wonder, if they are a form of Dor manipulation how were were made to work so far away? Or are they from an offworld magic instead?
I’ve looked all over and can’t find anything, so we have any official artwork for what the glyph of Mai pon used to complete the stamps looks like? I have a tattoo lineup of the different magic systems, and I already have Aon Aon, but with how small the others are, it’d be insane to get the example stamp that’s in the Arcanum. I’m hoping I just am bad at Google and can’t find the image.
Nothing official, apart from the really complicated one. The general symbol for Sel would probably work for you though: www.dragonsteelbooks.com/products/sel-symbol-decal?variant=32588110233680
...lol blood ceiling, I am still cackling about that. This is amazing and I love it. It feels like there are a ton of Cosmere podcasts out there but almost none of them actually do any sort of deep delving, mostly people just recite facts or summarize books. I really appreciate your method of going into somewhat speculative details without acting like a fanfiction author telling us this theory he likes and just *knows* to be true. Truly cannot get enough of your fantastic videos. I don't think that symbol is supposed to represent all of Sel. Isaac once confirmed it was a soulstamp (see provided link and you have to read the comments above). I know it's the one in Arcanum Unbounded, but I don't know if it's meant to be part of the in-universe book, or if that necessarily means, just because the Seventeenth Shard uses it, that it truly represents the whole planet. After all, the symbol for White Sand doesn't seem to consider Darkside, and the symbol for Mistborn is purely allomantic. twitter.com/IzykStewart/status/980855176713068544
Oh man, I didn't know it was confirmed to be a Soulstamp! It seemed more plausible than an Aon to serve as the symbol for the planet, but looking closer at it that makes sense. Thanks!
@@TheCosmerenaut It could still be the symbol "someone" uses for Sel. I mean, Khriss seems to, depending on how specific we were supposed to take things like the binding of the book. But, what does it mean to be "the symbol of Sel"? Would people from DC, NYC, and Lichtenstein have differing opinions on whether or not the Statue of Liberty is "the symbol" of the USA?
The magics on Sel and Roshar I thing are more naturally tied to Realmatics in a way that allomancy isn't. However, as we continue to progress in Scadrial's development, I'm sure we'll get more information on how the metallic arts affect things on cognitive and spiritual levels.
@@TheCosmerenaut hmmmmm. About ryse? why hasn't he picked up the shattered devotion and dominion instead of trapping them? we did see a certain person wield two god in perfect harmony.
Taking up Devotion and Dominion certainly would have made Rayse more powerful, but he didn't want anything to change his Intent. Stuffing them into the Cognitive Realm was just a way to make sure no one else would be able to take them up.
Did the earthquake immediately break the aondor magic in the regional system in Elantris? I thought the cognitive realm took time to reflect changes in the physical realm. Also, would there be any point to sel as it stands in the cosmere as no one of that planet could jump to another system and use magic. This is my hypothesis considering the investiture is more the spiritual connection to a geographical region based on splinted shards, and direct investiture to the people of the land is not known. Dakhor monks would be the only people I would assume Could planet hop and their magic still work as it is directly invested to their bodies and morphs their soul and body as you said.
The earthquake which caused the chasm and the fall of Elantris were close enough together that everyone thought the fall caused the quake rather than the other way around. So either the landscape of the Cognitive Realm immediately reflects changes in the Physical Realm, or the prolonged close contact with the Dor is granting the planet a degree of self-awareness (I'm pretty sure there's a WoB hinting at this) which allowed that change to happen quickly. Even the Dakhor would have to hack something to use their magic off-world. The changes their bodies have undergone would stay, but they wouldn't be able to channel the Dor in any way on a different planet, similar to the Elantrians we've seen on other worlds.
Do you have some kind of Word Of Brandon to say that Forton's potions use the Dor? It seems like a pretty huge stretch to me. All we have seen it do is replicate the obvious symptoms of the Shaod which were make the hair fall out and give them blotchy skin. Neither of these seem at all magical to me, I think he's just a very talented chemist. If it is just mundane (yet advanced) chemistry then distance obviously would not matter. Also making potions does not suggest any kind of shape/form based trigger for an application of the Dor, suggesting that there may be oddly shaped plants involved really sounds like grasping at straws.
@@TheCosmerenaut I figured it had to be a WOB, because there is nothing in either book to suggest such a thing and I wouldn't expect you to make such a stretch without reason, that said you should probably have pointed this out specifically. Thanks for the link though.
Aons can also be carved into (drawn onto stone) theoretically if the stone is moved once created it won’t have a drop off in power as it’s created in the dominion of AonDor. So potions don’t loose effectiveness and stamps once created don’t loose it either. It’s location based but once the conduit is in place, all good!
I disagree. Brandon has said that if you take a Soulstamped object off world, the stamp will fail and the object will revert. Stamps and Aons require at least a trickle of the Dor for them to keep working, and without any hacking, the Dor is only accessible in Sel, as keyed to the appropriate region.
@@TheCosmerenaut I totally forgot about that Q&A. I believe you can use hemalurgy anywhere but you need intent. So does that mean you can access the Dor (open the door) on any shard world with the appropriate cartographic symbology? I’ll bet the shattered planes are pretty easy access as it’s described as a pattern(ish something similar)
I think in order to use Selish magic in a different shardworld you'd have to hack it to draw from a different investiture source. The main reason for the localization of Sel investiture is because the Dor conforms to the specific topography of that area in the Cognitive Realm, and Sel is the only place the Dor is - that's why it's so dangerous to worldhop there. Because it's not present on other planets, you'd have to tweak something to make our work.
@@TheCosmerenaut hack it? You mean something similar to the way white sand can be reinvested by a high storm? (Actually, I suppose that would make it black sand being reinvested. ACTUALLY! It’s the microorganisms that live on the sand that get invested! So, what colour is the sand? Would a radiant have unlimited power on taldain? Could they get investiture from eating Patji style fried chicken? If FotS is a parasite and Taldain is a microorganism could Ashyn’s magic system be from autonomy (before the cataclysm it wasn’t sickness based))
I’m not caught up, why the um on Ceo? Bonus question, since a Elantrian draws from the Dor, and since the Dor is magic, if a Elantrian was to draw Nightblood would it just draw from the Dor?
Aon Seo looks surprisingly similar to a swastika, so I found it interesting that it meant loyalty. To answer the bonus question: Elantrians aren't constantly drawing from the Dor, so in order to be able to safely draw Nightblood they'd have to make some sort of connection (probably through an Aon) to prevent Nightblood from just consuming their soul. The tricky thing would be keeping that connection open, because the first thing that would start to wear away would be the Aon itself.
I picked up Elantris years ago thinking I'd want to read the Cosmere books in order of release, so I'd get to experience an improvement in the writing quality that naturally comes with experience. It didn't work for me and I dropped Elantris too quickly. After finishing Stormlight 1-4 I've realized the characters with the arcs I expected would be dull were sometimes the most compelling for me, and I'm a lot more willing to go back and give it another attempt. and I *really* want to dig into Emperor's Soul
For the potions the reason they don't lose power is because they were invested in the country. I think the drop off in his case would be how far away from his country he was making the potions. If he tried to brew them in Elantris for example they would be weak but once they are made in the correct place there would theoretically be no limit on how far away they could be used since the actual investiture took place in the correct spot.
Wouldn't they have a similar limitation to forgeries then? A soulstamped object, even though it gets invested in the proper region, cannot be taken too far away from Mai Pon or it will revert back. I would assume Forton's potions would function under similar restrictions, especially because they have to be ingested; the investiture can't just be present in the making of the potion, but is only able to have the desired effect because it remains invested and so is able to influence the user on cognitive or spiritual levels.
I thought that the reason why the dor is based on region maps is because of the shard, Dominion, relegating it's investiture to various, well, dominions.
Recently i re-read mistborn secret history and i found something very interesting, be careful spoilers ahead. When Kelsier is spying the Airi, they said that they have the protection of ''devotion'', but devotion is dead, how is this possible??? any idea how to explain it?
They could be talking about the Dor, which is half made up of Devotion's power. They may have a way to specifically harness Devotion and not any Dominion, which could make sense considering they were no longer within the "Domain" of Sel. Or, they could be talking about the general cosmere concept of Devotion, which could be like Connection or Fortune. We just don't know at this point.
According to to Shia from 'The Emperor's Soul', forgers can be from anywhere. Quote from 'Day Five' from 'The Emperor's Soul': "Few people understood how much Forgery was about study and research. It was an art any man or woman could learn. It only required a steady hand and an eye for detail." Since this is a quote from Shia, she might not be aware that she had to be born in a specific place. The fact that she has to physically be in a specific place seems unquestionable if you look at how the magic in Elantris works, but this passage kinda undermines the past you said about being born. Any thoughts anyone? I also believe a person should not be in the specific region the power originated for it to work. The potion used to mimic the shoad was transported far away and the Derethi priests could also function far away from their continent. This is probably due to the Dor investiture being everywhere on Sel. The only exception seems to be Elantrians, who can not use their full power once they are far away from Elantris, yet the others never seem to fade. The potion made to immitate the shaod was even stronger than requested.
So far as we know, all Selish magics get weaker the further away they get from the region of origin. Brandon has specifically said that is why no Forgeries appear in Elantris; if taken too far away from Mai Pon, the Forged item reverts back to it's original state. Even the Dakhor monks were weaker in Teod than in Arelon - they were further from the region that connects their Dor key symbols to investiture. Also, with every other magic system on Sel, users must have some sort of connection to their spiritual region. It's possible for a non-native to gain access, but it would be difficult.
Near the base of the mountain where the perpendicularity is, toward one of the gates of the city. Drawing the line with the intent to finish the Aon allowed it to be complete, even if the line itself was not permanent.
@@TheCosmerenaut the line could only be erased by an elantrian, even if the dirt was changed through other means. I've just compared the map of Arelon and the city of elantris and the line should have been south of the elantris city wall
I like the theory here about the Dor. It is simple, elegant and it works to explain how a single world can have so many different ways to access investiture I would suggest that the local "Key" was also influenced by the nature of the people in the region. Their identities and culture would shape the way to access investiture. For instance if the Pre-Magicked Elantrians were known to be a highly scholarly race then it would make sense that they would access the Dor using symbols and runes. The Fjorden being big on self denial, sacrifice and the molding of oneself to God's will would then have to mold themselves to access the Dor. Also, my favourite systems are Forging and Awakening. So much awesome in 2 seemingly non-flashy systems
That definitely makes sense, especially when you consider that the basic alphabet of many of these cultures are actually based on symbols that can access the Dor. The very languages that people use across Sel fundamentally shape how they interact with investiture.
Do you think that a Dakor monk has a maximum limit to the amount of investiture they can hold? To me, it seems like the Dakor monks and the Steel Inquisitors have the most potential for enormous power of the cosmere magic users, since they can continue to (presumably) expand their level of investiture, or at least expand their ability to harness investiture to a great extent, maybe even without a true higher limit.
You only have so many bones that can be written on, just like you only have so many places you can put spikes. If anything, they have functional limitations.
@@TheCosmerenaut I hadn't considered that about the Dakor. I just assumed that they could sort of squeeze more investiture into their bones if they wanted to, but that does make sense.
I really love all of your videos, thank you! SPOILER ALERT FOR RHYTHM OF WAR!!! Do you have any theories on how a Seon got to the Cognitive Realm in Roshar?
Thank you! That's an interesting conundrum, because we typically assume with the nature of Selish magics that it's impossible to take off-world without some kind of hack, but I think seons are somewhat of a special case. They are splinters of investiture, like spren, so they don't necessarily need an active connection to the Dor, as may be assumed, which means they're not necessarily bound by the region of their Aon. In fact, we know that Wyrn Wulfen has a functioning seon in Fjorden. So they're more mobile than people may think, and given that their bond is strictly related to love (as they are pieces of Devotion) it may just be as simple as going to Sel and bonding a seon, then leaving.
New theory; if the Fjordellian people can conquer the world like they seem to want to, would the Dakor be able to use their magic anywhere on Sel? I wonder if this would somehow change the growing awareness of Sel's investiture. Perhaps that's why they want to conquer the world in the first place; Wyrn spoke to a piece of self aware investiture that was tied to Fjordell, and it wants to expand. Just a theory, anyway.
I think the Dor is slowly investing the planet itself, which might eventually lead to an Ego type situation. Though in order for Dakhor - or any Selish magic system - to work planetwide, it's likely that different symbols would have to be used. That's probably what the Moon Scepter, stolen by Hoid, was related to.
@@TheCosmerenaut True, I suppose. I guess that the symbols used for Selish magic are local to only their homeland , so they'd probably need to change them in order to use their power anywhere, even if the Dakor did manage to take over the world.
Steve, did you stop making videos? I would love it if you made a Rhythm of War summary vid similar to what u made for the other books. Those vids were so good!
As soon as I'm done going through the different systems of Investiture, I'm planning on doing a series about Hoid and worlhoppers in general. So stay tuned!
@@TheCosmerenaut try rotating like you did before to match I haven't tried this myself but it looks like it could work, try using the sea as the center piece and matching that right edge (now left edge with a pennensula
@@Adam-sh8vf I've tried matching the lines to coasts, to mountain ranges, to rivers, to oceans, but it never quite fits. Brandon has said that that area of the world has an inflated sense of importance, so the scale is going to be inherently skewed. We just don't know enough about how all the nations fit together to get an accurate map; the Rose Empire is completely missing from our current map of Opelon, and there's a whole other civilization on Sel that we know nothing about.
Probably would have to be an Aonic equation including the symbols for broth, chicken, noodles, and carrots, modified by a heating Aon. And then complicated even more by spices. Oof.
The first cartographer, that accurately maps the whole globe of Sel, might just ascend.
Stands to reason, right? All of a sudden, BOOM! One big Aon.
Would we get another dual shard like Harmony?
@@HMK-nh4ft domain+ dominion...
Would we get domination?
Ascension jokes are so uplifting, thank you. I'm sure Harmony would agree
That combination sounds kind of scary, actually. My guess is Obsession.
I hear the parashendi make the best psychotherapists...
just good listeners, I suppose
They're also expert at parshing out meaning.
Puns!
I'm usually pretty good at nuking these quick. Blasted things commented while I was asleep.
@@TheCosmerenaut you were asleep for 26 hrs that’s impressive.
I noticed when I woke up, saw that you had fairly effectively neutralized their impact, then figured it would be worth it to actually report them.
And stop judging my days-long naps. I'm storing in my bronzemind.
Shallan "what's the latest woman's fashion in Kholinar?"
Adolin "Well, havah got news for you!"
I think it's safe to hand it to you: these are delightfully terrible.
Pattern: NO MATING!!!
I'm absolutely thrilled that you're talkin about the investiture on sel, the emperor's soul is my absolute favorite work in the cosmere and forgery is easily my favorite system.
For such a small book, Emperor's Soul has so much amazing stuff in it. The philosophy, the worldbuilding, the characters, everything is just so good.
@@TheCosmerenaut particularly the characters in The Emotions behind them I think are some of Brandon Sanderson's best work. Like I fell in love with the emperor's Soul when I heard it in audiobook and then I just had to get the Anthology that it was it and performance in the audio book was just fantastic. It totally brought these characters to such life and showed such a debt to them it was truly incredible. Like that moment at the end when she's giving the unconscious emperor his soul and she talks about how she knows him she knows his soul, that was just such an incredibly powerful moment for me to read and to hear in the audiobook.
as for the magic system I've always been fascinated by Far Eastern religion so stuff like taoism and Shintoism always appealed to me and then you have an anime stuff like the flying ofuda talismans. so I was obviously going to absolutely fall in love with a magic system that was based on Imperial name stamps.
I am very interested to see how Forgery interacts with other magics. My friend got a question confirmed to help with some fanfiction I'm writing, about Forging someone who already has an ability.
Forgery is basically retcon magic. I absolutely love it.
I've always been fascinating with knowing the individual history of specific objects (I love old coins for that reason) so being able to change that history is a super cool extension
I didn't realize that it was an "official thing" that the Dor was basically the combined splinters of Devotion and Dominion. So I learned something new! Great job, keep up the great videos!
It's always great to hear that my videos are actually helping people get a better understanding of the Cosmere. Thanks!
So at the Starsight Signing last November, Brandon said that there are at least a *dozen* different magic systems on Sel. I guess it makes sense that there are several we haven't seen since there's an entire third continent we haven't seen anything on yet.
Oh yeah, Sel is WAY bigger than what we've seen of it so far. And the regionalization of the magic makes it really easy for multiple systems to exist.
@@TheCosmerenaut You're alive!
I've had a surprisingly busy quarantine...
Wait…. AT LEAST 12?!?! Oh my gosh… I had no idea.
I absolutely love all of your Cosmere videos! I am obsessed with this universe and your videos are extremely informative and entertaining. Thank you for making these and keep up the great work!
Thank you! I'm glad you're enjoying them!
I like to think that Arelish wedding vows involve someone saying "Devotion may be dead, but I will see what I can do."
Kaladevotion.
Welcome back RAFO. So glad you could join us. Selish realmatics will continue to be an easy grab bag for Brandon Sanderson to use in future. I'm so thankful he has a notebook full of magic systems already outlined for him to use. Your video is so great. I'm still giggling about several puns. I wish more people were enthralled with his stories and magic she in the Cosmere.
Thanks! I'm just trying to spread the good word.
Steve, just finished watching all your cosmere videos. Thanks for the great videos, keep them coming!
I'm glad you like them! I'm working on another right now!
Id be lost without you. seriously... thank you for explaining this.
My guess is that Forton's potions' power dropoff is "calculated" based on where they were made, rather than where they were ingested. The Dakhor also seemed pretty powerful regardless of where we were, and we never really got close to Wyrn's Seat where I presume the center of Dakhor power is. So either the same applies to Dakhor, that the power is defined by where the monk was made rather than where they're located, or they're crazy powerful near the center of power.
That would make sense in terms of the potions; I hadn't considered that. There definitely is a drop-off for Dakhor though, which is why Raoden and crew were able to do more damage to them in Teod, but it's a much slower rate than others. Thinking about it, that could be a result of the relative size of their regional key - if they can pull from a larger area of the Dor, then their area of effect would probably be exponentially greater. If the Fjorden writing system is based on something like the entire coast, that's significantly larger than the comparably tiny region of Arelon.
Just finished Elantris (the last book for me in the Cosmere) and I came straight here to get the breakdown. So glad there's a youtuber like RAFO who can help us understand investiture.
I'm here for you Jack.
Just finished Elantris. Now I have another video of yours that I can watch over, and over, and over again.
I'm glad that Dor is finally open for you.
Finished reading Elantris 3 minutes ago and here i am!
We've been eagerly waiting for you to arrive!
This channel is a beautiful thing. Elantris was the first published Sanderson book I read. But that was years ago and you're making me want to pick it up again!
You should! Especially if you haven't read the updated version!
Woooo new video!!!!
Just for you Ryan. Just for you.
I found it! I finally found it! Thank you for making a great video. I'm diving in to your content now and I'm happy to see a UA-camr knowledgeable in Brandonverse. Subscribed.
Hooray! Welcome William!
Yaas another one! You make the greatest of videos.
d:-)
Thanks! I do try. :)
Good job sir, thank you for these videos
Thanks! Glad you like!
11:03 I read all the books in sel elantris, hope of elantris and the emperor's soul. But I don't remember reading that the imperial fool is hoid (the beggar from elantris)?? Or was it mentioned in another cosmere book ?
Ps: I also read Shadow for silence and the final empire (a long time ago)
He's in a deleted, semi-canonical prologue, which you can read here: www.brandonsanderson.com/the-emperors-soul-deleted-prologue-imperial-fool/
I really do like the idea that Forton is JUST that good at making potions that he's able to factor in the regional distance to make his potions viable. My headcannon is that he also gives his clients specific directions along with the potion for where to stand while taking it (ie don't take potion until you are at the base of the north facing wall of elantris) or something like that.
Haha, that would be REALLY impressive!
I was wondering, if one could conquer, purchase, or otherwise obtain and somehow separate a plot of land on Sel, could you effectively create a new magic system? Would all it require be the perception of the people in it?
Probably depends on how big it is.
Two questions. Why are the potions counted as a way to access the Dor? I never got that impression. And why are bloodsealing and forgery counted as seperate? If you do that than why not count resealing as another, even though it's just forgery used to heal?
Brandon has confirmed that the potions are actually invested, and not just medicinal. So if they contain investiture, and they're made by a native of Sel, it stands to reason that somehow they access the Dor.
Bloodsealing and Forgery, while both stamp based, use different symbols and do different things. The basic map of Maipon is contained in every soulstamp, and Bloodsealers must be from Dzhamar, presumably with that nation's topography in their stamps. Since they use different symbols tied to different locations (as well as their vastly different applications), they must be different systems. Resealing still uses the basic symbols of Forgery, and so access the Dor in the same way. It's like how we count pewter allomancy as in the same magic system as zinc - they do different things, but the method for accessing them is the same.
It could be argued that Bloodsealing and Forgery ARE part of the same magic system, but if we did that we'd have to include Aon Dor and the Dakhor magic as well - they all access the same source of investiture, just in different ways.
@@TheCosmerenaut Oh. Thanks for finding and answering that comment. I didn't know any of that but it sounds so cool! With the potions especially it makes me wonder, if they are a form of Dor manipulation how were were made to work so far away? Or are they from an offworld magic instead?
That's exactly what I'm wondering about too.
that blender analogy was perfect
I haven't traveled much, but the little I did required an adapter!
Great video!
Thanks!
This is super helpful. I always felt the different magic systems on Sel made no sense. But this totally makes sense.
The Sel magics were really confusing to me for a long time, so I'm glad making this video helped others get it too! :D
@@TheCosmerenaut P.S. I'm really excited about your video on Warbreaker. No pressure or anything. ;)
I’ve looked all over and can’t find anything, so we have any official artwork for what the glyph of Mai pon used to complete the stamps looks like?
I have a tattoo lineup of the different magic systems, and I already have Aon Aon, but with how small the others are, it’d be insane to get the example stamp that’s in the Arcanum. I’m hoping I just am bad at Google and can’t find the image.
Nothing official, apart from the really complicated one. The general symbol for Sel would probably work for you though:
www.dragonsteelbooks.com/products/sel-symbol-decal?variant=32588110233680
@@TheCosmerenaut yeah, it just feels weird to already have Aon Aon, and then Sel as a whole.
Maybe we'll get something in the Elantris sequel.
Love your videoss, keep up the good work
Thanks!
...lol blood ceiling, I am still cackling about that.
This is amazing and I love it. It feels like there are a ton of Cosmere podcasts out there but almost none of them actually do any sort of deep delving, mostly people just recite facts or summarize books. I really appreciate your method of going into somewhat speculative details without acting like a fanfiction author telling us this theory he likes and just *knows* to be true. Truly cannot get enough of your fantastic videos.
I don't think that symbol is supposed to represent all of Sel. Isaac once confirmed it was a soulstamp (see provided link and you have to read the comments above). I know it's the one in Arcanum Unbounded, but I don't know if it's meant to be part of the in-universe book, or if that necessarily means, just because the Seventeenth Shard uses it, that it truly represents the whole planet. After all, the symbol for White Sand doesn't seem to consider Darkside, and the symbol for Mistborn is purely allomantic.
twitter.com/IzykStewart/status/980855176713068544
Oh man, I didn't know it was confirmed to be a Soulstamp! It seemed more plausible than an Aon to serve as the symbol for the planet, but looking closer at it that makes sense.
Thanks!
@@TheCosmerenaut It could still be the symbol "someone" uses for Sel. I mean, Khriss seems to, depending on how specific we were supposed to take things like the binding of the book. But, what does it mean to be "the symbol of Sel"? Would people from DC, NYC, and Lichtenstein have differing opinions on whether or not the Statue of Liberty is "the symbol" of the USA?
Is it just me or the importance of the connection between realms is very significant on Sel and Roshar, but not really in mistborn
The magics on Sel and Roshar I thing are more naturally tied to Realmatics in a way that allomancy isn't. However, as we continue to progress in Scadrial's development, I'm sure we'll get more information on how the metallic arts affect things on cognitive and spiritual levels.
@@TheCosmerenaut hmmmmm. About ryse? why hasn't he picked up the shattered devotion and dominion instead of trapping them? we did see a certain person wield two god in perfect harmony.
Taking up Devotion and Dominion certainly would have made Rayse more powerful, but he didn't want anything to change his Intent. Stuffing them into the Cognitive Realm was just a way to make sure no one else would be able to take them up.
@@TheCosmerenaut makes sense, Thanks good scholar.
Did the earthquake immediately break the aondor magic in the regional system in Elantris? I thought the cognitive realm took time to reflect changes in the physical realm. Also, would there be any point to sel as it stands in the cosmere as no one of that planet could jump to another system and use magic. This is my hypothesis considering the investiture is more the spiritual connection to a geographical region based on splinted shards, and direct investiture to the people of the land is not known. Dakhor monks would be the only people I would assume Could planet hop and their magic still work as it is directly invested to their bodies and morphs their soul and body as you said.
The earthquake which caused the chasm and the fall of Elantris were close enough together that everyone thought the fall caused the quake rather than the other way around. So either the landscape of the Cognitive Realm immediately reflects changes in the Physical Realm, or the prolonged close contact with the Dor is granting the planet a degree of self-awareness (I'm pretty sure there's a WoB hinting at this) which allowed that change to happen quickly.
Even the Dakhor would have to hack something to use their magic off-world. The changes their bodies have undergone would stay, but they wouldn't be able to channel the Dor in any way on a different planet, similar to the Elantrians we've seen on other worlds.
Read And Find Out seems like there are still many unanswered questions if the cosmere. I guess I need to read and find out lol
@@thelastviking2039 There's always another secret...
Dang. This is so informative and well done
Thank you!
I just love this channel.
And I love you.
Do you have some kind of Word Of Brandon to say that Forton's potions use the Dor? It seems like a pretty huge stretch to me. All we have seen it do is replicate the obvious symptoms of the Shaod which were make the hair fall out and give them blotchy skin. Neither of these seem at all magical to me, I think he's just a very talented chemist. If it is just mundane (yet advanced) chemistry then distance obviously would not matter. Also making potions does not suggest any kind of shape/form based trigger for an application of the Dor, suggesting that there may be oddly shaped plants involved really sounds like grasping at straws.
Brandon has specifically said that Forton's potions are invested. (wob.coppermind.net/events/95/#e826)
@@TheCosmerenaut I figured it had to be a WOB, because there is nothing in either book to suggest such a thing and I wouldn't expect you to make such a stretch without reason, that said you should probably have pointed this out specifically.
Thanks for the link though.
@@ChocolatierRob Good call. I'll put that link in the description as well. Thanks!
Ah, my question too
New video, heck yeah!
Boom bam dynamite!
Aons can also be carved into (drawn onto stone) theoretically if the stone is moved once created it won’t have a drop off in power as it’s created in the dominion of AonDor. So potions don’t loose effectiveness and stamps once created don’t loose it either. It’s location based but once the conduit is in place, all good!
I disagree. Brandon has said that if you take a Soulstamped object off world, the stamp will fail and the object will revert. Stamps and Aons require at least a trickle of the Dor for them to keep working, and without any hacking, the Dor is only accessible in Sel, as keyed to the appropriate region.
@@TheCosmerenaut I totally forgot about that Q&A. I believe you can use hemalurgy anywhere but you need intent. So does that mean you can access the Dor (open the door) on any shard world with the appropriate cartographic symbology?
I’ll bet the shattered planes are pretty easy access as it’s described as a pattern(ish something similar)
I think in order to use Selish magic in a different shardworld you'd have to hack it to draw from a different investiture source. The main reason for the localization of Sel investiture is because the Dor conforms to the specific topography of that area in the Cognitive Realm, and Sel is the only place the Dor is - that's why it's so dangerous to worldhop there. Because it's not present on other planets, you'd have to tweak something to make our work.
@@TheCosmerenaut hack it? You mean something similar to the way white sand can be reinvested by a high storm?
(Actually, I suppose that would make it black sand being reinvested. ACTUALLY! It’s the microorganisms that live on the sand that get invested! So, what colour is the sand? Would a radiant have unlimited power on taldain? Could they get investiture from eating Patji style fried chicken? If FotS is a parasite and Taldain is a microorganism could Ashyn’s magic system be from autonomy (before the cataclysm it wasn’t sickness based))
I’m not caught up, why the um on Ceo?
Bonus question, since a Elantrian draws from the Dor, and since the Dor is magic, if a Elantrian was to draw Nightblood would it just draw from the Dor?
Aon Seo looks surprisingly similar to a swastika, so I found it interesting that it meant loyalty.
To answer the bonus question: Elantrians aren't constantly drawing from the Dor, so in order to be able to safely draw Nightblood they'd have to make some sort of connection (probably through an Aon) to prevent Nightblood from just consuming their soul. The tricky thing would be keeping that connection open, because the first thing that would start to wear away would be the Aon itself.
So if the Dor makes it dangerous for Worldhoppers going to and from Sel, how did Hoid\Wit do it in Elantris?
Carefully.
you have returned!!!!!!
I didn't mean to be gone for so long...
I picked up Elantris years ago thinking I'd want to read the Cosmere books in order of release, so I'd get to experience an improvement in the writing quality that naturally comes with experience. It didn't work for me and I dropped Elantris too quickly.
After finishing Stormlight 1-4 I've realized the characters with the arcs I expected would be dull were sometimes the most compelling for me, and I'm a lot more willing to go back and give it another attempt.
and I *really* want to dig into Emperor's Soul
Emperor's Soul is fantastic, but you don't necessarily *need* to read Elantris beforehand.
Dude, I love your wit
Thanks! I love your Hoid!
For the potions the reason they don't lose power is because they were invested in the country. I think the drop off in his case would be how far away from his country he was making the potions. If he tried to brew them in Elantris for example they would be weak but once they are made in the correct place there would theoretically be no limit on how far away they could be used since the actual investiture took place in the correct spot.
Wouldn't they have a similar limitation to forgeries then? A soulstamped object, even though it gets invested in the proper region, cannot be taken too far away from Mai Pon or it will revert back. I would assume Forton's potions would function under similar restrictions, especially because they have to be ingested; the investiture can't just be present in the making of the potion, but is only able to have the desired effect because it remains invested and so is able to influence the user on cognitive or spiritual levels.
I thought that the reason why the dor is based on region maps is because of the shard, Dominion, relegating it's investiture to various, well, dominions.
That may be part of it, but there isn't any mind to guide that any more, which would make it more difficult.
Recently i re-read mistborn secret history and i found something very interesting, be careful spoilers ahead.
When Kelsier is spying the Airi, they said that they have the protection of ''devotion'', but devotion is dead, how is this possible???
any idea how to explain it?
They could be talking about the Dor, which is half made up of Devotion's power. They may have a way to specifically harness Devotion and not any Dominion, which could make sense considering they were no longer within the "Domain" of Sel.
Or, they could be talking about the general cosmere concept of Devotion, which could be like Connection or Fortune. We just don't know at this point.
According to to Shia from 'The Emperor's Soul', forgers can be from anywhere.
Quote from 'Day Five' from 'The Emperor's Soul': "Few people understood how much Forgery was about study and research. It was an art any man or woman could learn. It only required a steady hand and an eye for detail."
Since this is a quote from Shia, she might not be aware that she had to be born in a specific place. The fact that she has to physically be in a specific place seems unquestionable if you look at how the magic in Elantris works, but this passage kinda undermines the past you said about being born. Any thoughts anyone? I also believe a person should not be in the specific region the power originated for it to work. The potion used to mimic the shoad was transported far away and the Derethi priests could also function far away from their continent. This is probably due to the Dor investiture being everywhere on Sel. The only exception seems to be Elantrians, who can not use their full power once they are far away from Elantris, yet the others never seem to fade. The potion made to immitate the shaod was even stronger than requested.
So far as we know, all Selish magics get weaker the further away they get from the region of origin. Brandon has specifically said that is why no Forgeries appear in Elantris; if taken too far away from Mai Pon, the Forged item reverts back to it's original state. Even the Dakhor monks were weaker in Teod than in Arelon - they were further from the region that connects their Dor key symbols to investiture.
Also, with every other magic system on Sel, users must have some sort of connection to their spiritual region. It's possible for a non-native to gain access, but it would be difficult.
I've read Elantris but I'm still omega lost on where Raoden draws the line to fix the large Aon Rao
Near the base of the mountain where the perpendicularity is, toward one of the gates of the city. Drawing the line with the intent to finish the Aon allowed it to be complete, even if the line itself was not permanent.
@@TheCosmerenaut the line could only be erased by an elantrian, even if the dirt was changed through other means. I've just compared the map of Arelon and the city of elantris and the line should have been south of the elantris city wall
nice vid bro
Thanks!
What makes you think the potion crafting was invested instead of just chemistry?
Brandon has specifically said that they are invested: wob.coppermind.net/events/95-general-twitter-2016/#e826
I like the theory here about the Dor. It is simple, elegant and it works to explain how a single world can have so many different ways to access investiture
I would suggest that the local "Key" was also influenced by the nature of the people in the region. Their identities and culture would shape the way to access investiture. For instance if the Pre-Magicked Elantrians were known to be a highly scholarly race then it would make sense that they would access the Dor using symbols and runes. The Fjorden being big on self denial, sacrifice and the molding of oneself to God's will would then have to mold themselves to access the Dor.
Also, my favourite systems are Forging and Awakening. So much awesome in 2 seemingly non-flashy systems
That definitely makes sense, especially when you consider that the basic alphabet of many of these cultures are actually based on symbols that can access the Dor. The very languages that people use across Sel fundamentally shape how they interact with investiture.
Do you think that a Dakor monk has a maximum limit to the amount of investiture they can hold? To me, it seems like the Dakor monks and the Steel Inquisitors have the most potential for enormous power of the cosmere magic users, since they can continue to (presumably) expand their level of investiture, or at least expand their ability to harness investiture to a great extent, maybe even without a true higher limit.
You only have so many bones that can be written on, just like you only have so many places you can put spikes. If anything, they have functional limitations.
@@TheCosmerenaut I hadn't considered that about the Dakor. I just assumed that they could sort of squeeze more investiture into their bones if they wanted to, but that does make sense.
I really love all of your videos, thank you!
SPOILER ALERT FOR RHYTHM OF WAR!!!
Do you have any theories on how a Seon got to the Cognitive Realm in Roshar?
Thank you!
That's an interesting conundrum, because we typically assume with the nature of Selish magics that it's impossible to take off-world without some kind of hack, but I think seons are somewhat of a special case. They are splinters of investiture, like spren, so they don't necessarily need an active connection to the Dor, as may be assumed, which means they're not necessarily bound by the region of their Aon. In fact, we know that Wyrn Wulfen has a functioning seon in Fjorden. So they're more mobile than people may think, and given that their bond is strictly related to love (as they are pieces of Devotion) it may just be as simple as going to Sel and bonding a seon, then leaving.
Shipped by Amraize Prime.
New theory; if the Fjordellian people can conquer the world like they seem to want to, would the Dakor be able to use their magic anywhere on Sel? I wonder if this would somehow change the growing awareness of Sel's investiture. Perhaps that's why they want to conquer the world in the first place; Wyrn spoke to a piece of self aware investiture that was tied to Fjordell, and it wants to expand. Just a theory, anyway.
I think the Dor is slowly investing the planet itself, which might eventually lead to an Ego type situation. Though in order for Dakhor - or any Selish magic system - to work planetwide, it's likely that different symbols would have to be used. That's probably what the Moon Scepter, stolen by Hoid, was related to.
@@TheCosmerenaut True, I suppose. I guess that the symbols used for Selish magic are local to only their homeland , so they'd probably need to change them in order to use their power anywhere, even if the Dakor did manage to take over the world.
Just discovered this channel 👍
Welcome aboard!
Steve, did you stop making videos? I would love it if you made a Rhythm of War summary vid similar to what u made for the other books. Those vids were so good!
I'm back! And yes, a RoW summary video is definitely on its way.
When are you going to talk about hoid?
As soon as I'm done going through the different systems of Investiture, I'm planning on doing a series about Hoid and worlhoppers in general. So stay tuned!
@@TheCosmerenaut , have you done those by now? I'd watch them!🎋
Still in the works! I've gotten a lot more in depth than I expected to.
try reflecting the symbol for opalon
Done. Now what?
@@TheCosmerenaut try rotating like you did before to match
I haven't tried this myself but it looks like it could work, try using the sea as the center piece and matching that right edge (now left edge with a pennensula
other ideas than that, the symbol may be a reprsentetion on thee cognitive realm so maybe invert the map or symbol?
@@Adam-sh8vf I've tried matching the lines to coasts, to mountain ranges, to rivers, to oceans, but it never quite fits. Brandon has said that that area of the world has an inflated sense of importance, so the scale is going to be inherently skewed. We just don't know enough about how all the nations fit together to get an accurate map; the Rose Empire is completely missing from our current map of Opelon, and there's a whole other civilization on Sel that we know nothing about.
@@TheCosmerenaut I guess we'll have to WAFO (wait and find out)
Please do something on warbreaker
One Warbreaker video coming right up!
Hay, just out of curiosity, should I read Edgedancer before Oathbringer?
@@ariholder4762 YES. Edgedancer is like Stormlight Archive 2.5, and there's some things that occur that have direct impact on Oathbringer.
So, could an Arelon(ian?) weeaboo use Chay Shan?
I don't think being a weeb would provide enough of a connection. Or at least I hope not.
Odium was just bodying everyone even in pairs though two shards working together my contrast each other but still damn
Didn't go after Ruin and Preservation though.
If you ever wanted to branch out, would you tell us your thoughts about Avatar and bending as a magic system?
Ooh I would love to. In fact, I have a wild and crazy theory that ATLA could totally exist within the cosmere.
Making a knock- knock joke out of Dor makes you real dor-k.......I'll let myself out.
I dunno, that was a good way to Sel it!
"Loyalty" eh haha
I mean, it *can't* be a coincidence, right?
o shit u bac
I shit u not.
Dude, gimmie an Aion for chicken noodle soop!
Probably would have to be an Aonic equation including the symbols for broth, chicken, noodles, and carrots, modified by a heating Aon. And then complicated even more by spices. Oof.
@@TheCosmerenaut still less complicated than trying to capture the soul of a man.
Yes indeed. However, Forging a bowl of water to be a bowl of chicken soup would probably be even easier.
you forgot the *Redacted*
I didn't want to spoil it.
@@TheCosmerenaut You're right It feels like forever since I read elantris but spoilers will be spoilers RAFO
Yeah, it's a pretty significant plot point at the end, so I just thought it better to avoid it.
welcome to WAFO
*Insert Jeopardy Theme*