"A fear of failure; a fear of being less than perfect" really spoke to me, as well as fear of shame and an inability to trust. Sadly, I've been married to the same wonderful man for 35 years, but I admit I still can't trust him. Fear rules my life.
You're such a "distrustful Debra"... Cut the man some slack, Debaroo! I can tell you he's a trustworthy guy... for sure... I know, I tried to sleep with him countless times... he said he's "Married, and not into other men"... I said "No way! Me neither! See! We have so much in common!😘... Plus, I'm gender fluid! (So its totally not gay, dude...😗✋😓)"... But, but... he still rejected me!!!😣... And I was looking sexy asf in my "short shorts" at the time too!... if that doesn't prove he's faithful... Idk what will?!😎
I had been been pondering these concepts for decades regarding my mother, her father and one brother who share(d) these baffling and for me crazy making character features. Dr. Grande with my relatives there was another great fear and that was the idea of seeing any mental health professionals. The fear of being found out.
I think my Ex had BPD. She would call me in the middle of the night threatening suicide. Would constantly criticize me on the weirdest things like the inside of my ears were too dark , my eyes were too eye shaped. Would spend a bunch of money that she didn't really have on clothes and makeup. Asked me to introduce her to an Ex's kid that was *NOT* mine and started crying when I said no. But wait there's more. We were at a grocery store she dropped on the floor and broke down crying because they were out of organic spinach. When I broke up with her she threatened to get me fired and to prove that she could she falsely accused a co-worker of sexual harassment and he was fired. I was stuck in this relationship for about 2 years. She broke up with because she met a man unlike me only had one flaw and that was that he was married. That cheating bastard did me a hell of a favor.
I'm really sorry you went through that. Sounds like she may have had npd too and a bunch of other things. I hope you know most borderlines aren't like that, unfortunately if your ex was a borderline it sounds like she was an extreme case.
You are quite welcome! For whatever reason, I have been a bit more productive over the last few weeks. My goal is to release a minimum of two videos per week, so I guess I overdid it by a little -
Gee, Dr Grande, you're hard to follow lol. But everything you do is so interesting and deep so I'm always trying to catch up, also with old videos. Thank you for all.
@@DrGrande Wow - Dr. Grande I just noticed this comment here and you have really become ridiculously productive nowadays - uploading daily I believe. Great videos. I need to rewatch this one again later. I am learning a lot.
@@Marcelube I know, right? I keep asking Dr Grande to do videos that I'm seeing he has covered some of the topics already but I could spend hours watching them!
Thank you so much for your clarity on this. My mother has BPD but is also extremely manipulative and because of her abuse I have CPTSD and am trying to figure things out and break a cycle of generational abuse.
You analyzed it very good Dr. Grande👍 I agree. Fear is the emotion most personality disorders have in common. I do like to tell you also some of my own interpretations about fear and PD's. I think you forgot one hudge fear. It's the fear of intimacy, because this fear is actually about the fear of rejections, abandonments, criticism, not being loved, liked, not getting enough attention, validation, etc, etc. when we are in a relationship. That's why all PD's have relationship problems in common. They have problems with empathy and/or a relation where giving and taking is in balance. Mostly they are very emotional needy, because they got lack of love in their childhood, like the one with BPD. Someone with NPD can't give love. Anxiety creates inside emptiness in many personality disorders. When there is no intimacy, then there is less of all these emotional pains. Probably that is why schizoid is in depth also some kind of a compulsive defense mechanism for fear of intimacy, which started in early childhood? Yes the fear of not being perfect, like we see in NPD and OCPD is another fear in first, but it's actually the same fear of being rejected by others (in relationships), because of BEING not a God-like human being (NPD) and the fear of DOING things not perfect and/'or BEHAVE moral not perfect enough as a human being (OCPD). It's the shame about the real imperfect self in being and/or behaving. Unfortunately people with OCPD (and NPD') often didn't learn in their childhood, that being good or doing things good as a person is good enough! The parents were very hard to satisfy by their children, because these parents self have mental health problems too. Let's not forget about the role of genetic components. Specifically the 'dysfunction' of the amygdala in the brain, where our anxiety is biological managed. Lots of neuroscience based research has indicate that. The great female psychoanalyst Karen Horney already figured it out very good. She explained it in her books so well, when in the young childhood a child is not being really loved and his emotional needs were not enough met the BASIC FEAR(S) develop into the child and all kinds of pathological personality traits and compulsive relationship strategies (going to, against or away from others) are kind of less born in a person. Again......I think you really did a very good job in analyzing this topic! Thank you doc 😃
I agree, though many of these personality disorders do experience empathy, including bpd. The trouble is we seem to not know how a relationship is supposed to work.
@@nicorizzo5402 Yes, I know. BPD, and all cluster C PD's can be empathetic. Indeed, mostly PD's don't know how a relationship work. Mostly there's problems with knowing how to indicate boundaries.
This is interesting insight. I have narcissistic traits, if not NPD, and I struggle immensely with the idea of needing to BE perfect and if I’m anything less, I’m worthless and unlovable. It’s a very painful way to live but I know no other way. While I wasn’t abused and my parents love me, I have never felt truly loved or good enough just being who I am.
This is a very beautiful explanation, for some reason (as a narcissist) I keep attracting borderline people into my life, so this has always been a mystery to me. I loved the compassionate way that this has been explained. (Instead of talking harsh and judging or saying that we are toxic) I agree that after all the other symptoms have been stripped down from the equation, the root is fear, and people is ready sometimes to do anything to avoid that fear of the pain. So people make weird things, like getting overly attached or posessive to others.
Dr Grande, the first time I am trying to make a comment. I an 76 yo only throught u tube realised that my mother was NPD. At age 30 I married a man 6 y older, but realised recently that he had BPD. I was co-dependent. But because of his rages, which I managed to hide from my children, I lived in fear great parts of the 36 years of marraige, He fied age 62. One thing that stands out about him for me, is that he was very shallow, unreliable, often did not pay the electricity bill, and we were cut off......lazy, but very intelligent in studying. Very attracted to men when studyjing and stayed very late while "studying together". He had a sense of thinking s lot of himself, and a lack of empathy. I still cannot make out really, what kind of a man he was. Later in life he suffered a lit from depression, always played ill, and was very rude when ill. He died from a sudden heart attack. he always refused to take any meds, and to see n psychologist. I now realise that that marraige was actually a nightmare, but it made me strong
Helet , I learned that my mother was NPD late in life. I attracted a sociopath business partner and a BPD girlfriend. It was not until I was 63 that I understood about Cluster B Disorders (and why I was a magnet). Better late than never.
@@vampireslayer1989 I am sorry you also attracted a cluster B disordered person. I typed a mistake...I married. At age 20. To get away from the toxic family. Whole family was toxic...those 3 btothers still alive...are stil grandiose.I was the only girl.... .scapegoat
Wow 36 years is a long nightmare! I hope you are doing your best to now make your walking life a libing dream. Those people will literally take years off your life because they're dead inside.
I hope you have found a really great trauma therapist and if not start looking for one. You will bee needing it having lived so long in an environment with a person like that. Good luck and keep commenting your voice is perfect and worth being heard.
I have BPD, and I don’t have a fear of not being the center of attention, in fact, I hate being the center of attention, it’s really engulfing. Very informative video, I love them all! 👍🏼
@@dhrubajyoti14 BPD is not a cookie cutter disorder. We are still individuals. And did you know that there are 256 different combinations of presentations of BPD, based on the DSM 5 criteria?
@@amandastein6247 ok. I don't know that much..Btw have you take therapy? And if there are so many combinations of bpd then everybody must have some of the parts of these combinations
@@dhrubajyoti14 please google the 9 criteria for BPD. 5/9 are required for a diagnosis. If you don’t know much about BPD, why are trying to tell me I don’t have it? That makes ZERO sense. Use google for basic info.
@@amandastein6247 i have the the idea about 5/9 thing. I'm not a therapist btw so not an expert and don't just claim u have bpd. Visit a therapist first then claim & shout as much as you can.
Well borderlines don't have a need for admiration the way narcissists do, in bpd's case it's actually a need for validation or acceptance. Npd needs to be seen as special, superior, perfect, etc. Bpd just wants to be seen as ok or normal cause we're constantly thinking we're bad people. This also means that we don't fear not being the center of attention the way histrionics do, we just fear being alone. Sense of entitlement also isn't present in many borderlines but I have seen it in some, it's really much more common in npd than in bpd. The thing about all these symptoms is not everyone with each disorder has all these symptoms, like not everyone with npd or bpd has that anger symptom.
I have narcissistic traits as well as “identity disturbance,” according to my psychologist. I definitely have a strong need for admiration and attention, especially based on my looks and secondarily, my intelligence. I love the look on people’s faces when I walk by and they gawk at me, but my world comes crashing down on me when someone doesn’t notice me. My mood is literally a see-saw, with random strangers jumping on and controlling it. I’m still trying to figure out how all these things interplay...the identity issues and need for admiration. The narcissistic traits are definitely more prevalent and impairing than the identity/BPD traits. Anyway, just wanted to say that I think I agree with you generally, and also wanted to add a narcissist’s perspective. Lord knows we like talking about ourselves!
Covert narcissists rule from the bottom. pwBPD rule from the bottom by playing on others' needs to care for them. Not such a big difference to be honest
(3:35) Bingo, Dr G. You hit the bull’s eye with the statement that FEAR is at the core of both these disorders and it actually underpins the emergence of SHAME, which in turn drives ANGER toward self or others. It took me over a lifetime of vulnerable narcissistic abuse to arrive at same conclusion, that of my avoidant personality disorder.
I really enjoyed this video and was stimulated to think of past experiences with BPD and NPD traits to look for common threads. I knew a university freshman who was living away from home for the first time in her life. She was extremely (excessively?) lonely until she fell in with a group of five girls who shared a common interest. She became dependent on the group for support and social activities, but it was more than that. She started to emulate the others as though she was using them to define her identity in her new environment. The others all had boyfriends, but she had never been on a date. That made her different, and she became frantic to find a boyfriend in order to conform to her group. She actually admitted that she worried about being different from the others. She asked a young man who was living with his girlfriend to leave the girlfriend and live with her -- she still had never been on a date! All this seems consistent with BPD behavior. Finally she found a boyfriend and immediately treated him very poorly: she didn't trust or respect him, she treated him as an inferior, dismissed or devalued what he said, accused him of infidelity and lying, etc. The way she treated the boyfriend actually seems more like NPD because she seemed to have little human feeling towards him. Yet she used him as a showpiece, telling her five girlfriends how wonderful he was, and how much in love they were. It looked like she was trying to assure her girlfriends that indeed she had a loving relationship with a man, just as they did. I don't think a BPD sufferer could be that callous towards a partner, or so duplicitous. When the boyfriend broke up with her she reacted in BPD fashion: suicide threats, rage, self-harm, etc. So I think she may have had mixed BPD/NPD traits. She said she'd had "an anxiety problem" for a few years. Perhaps a further increase in anxiety (similar to fear) caused by university life and a need please her social group had brought out these traits.
definitely with 22 years of experience think my partner is BPD AND COVERT NPD. i have had a terrible time and took me all this time to work it out and to leave as still had feelings for him and feel so sorry about his upbringing but can't take any more pain myself
NPD: I will act in a superior way to ensure people will want to be around me. BPD: I will act in a hypervigilant way about my attachments to ensure people will remain around me. HPD: I will act in attention-seeking and dramatic ways to ensure people will pay attention and remain around me.
Great video as usual from Doc Grande. You are absolutely spot-on with my borderline - fear of betrayal... by girlfriends and bosses...I always think the girl is 'almost cheating' and the boss is 'looking for excuses' to fire me. NPD Two narcissistic dudes I know who I've told about my borderline have confessed their problem is fear of losing control. When I pressed further, control of what, they said everything. My sense is NPD fear of being found out.. like you said pure shame of something they are or have done and cannot escape/take back. Histrionics, my take is they fear getting old, not being sexy anymore, not being the center of attention they always were (or thought they were).. basically a fear of death. ASPD seem to fear themselves, their 'true selves'.. their hurt child...so they project that child onto others they perceive as weak and play with them.. if someone triggers that vulnerability in the psychopath it angers them...ASPD don't fear danger imho because death would be the easy-out from every having to face themselves in the inevitable vulnerability of old age. Its almost like ASPD have a fear of their original birth...many claim not to be human...but 'alien' or 'another species'... it clearly shows they aren't comfortable having being BORN. So I'll go with...BPD-betrayal...NPD..shame...HPD.. death...ASPD.. birth! :)
So basically, even though we would call these disorders, they're in fact phobias of feeling certain types of pain (or certain origins of pain) in the cognitive process?
No not at all. The fear (phobia) he talks about is only the link between the two disorders, there's actually a lot more individual stuff going on there.
I read that mothers who have narcisstic personality disorder especially on the more dialed up end of the spectrum towards malignant npd can cause some symptoms that can look like bpd for a child of a npd mother who was placed in the sg role Those who have bpd are typically empathic whereas those w npd lack the ability to feel empathy , and are cunning, callous, highly manipulative and predatory- those with bpd suffer from difficulty w emotional regulation, unstable sense of self, but do feel empathy, the idea is the trauma caused to the child of the npd sociopath mother causes ptsd emotional dysregulation and unstable sense of self, they were never nurtured or validated or allowed to be separate from the npd mother
I am trying for almost 40 years to get a normal or sort of healthy relationship with my biological mother , who has a severe BPD She never raised me and that was a blessing to be fair with you. She raised me only the first six years of my life and they took me out of her care when they noticed I was almost without empathy , drained because of her ... I even replied in all calmth to questions " so when mommy held the gun to her face , what did you think ? " and I replied " I would have been lucky and so would the rest of the household , we would be happy again " . These doctors could not believe the loss of emotion a six year old had ... the damage a severe BPDpatient brings is unsettling . i am thankful for the people who raised me eventually because thanks to them I have empathy ! Sadly she is too unstable... Can not go on anymore , it does not come sideways in this relationship , it was shortlived again ( a week , bravo mother , bravo ... ) they keep coming and want your validation , later on they " forget " about you again ... it s exhausting .
My mother was a borderline personality, my father was a narcissist. They divorced, and my mother immediately married a psychopath. She became more and more detached from reality, which he encouraged. This had the effect of spplitting we siblings apart. My brother became at the least borderline also, while my sister was more sociopathic. I spent years in therapy combatting a pretty severe neurosis. To this day at seventy, I still struggle with relationships, fear and self-loathing. Fortunately, therapy helped me learn to overcome most of my symptoms. For anyone else who came from such a dysfunctional environment, please get help. Otherwise you may face addiction, isolation, compulsivity or suicidal tendencies. Or you may become an overachiever like myself with lack of self care. Thank you Doctor Grande.
This was interesting and really got me thinking! Antisocial PD seems to be the only Cluster B disorder without fear, and we can see how even that leads to problems (and lack of safety for others) in the social construct. Interesting, the Malignant Narcissist fears something about themselves being diminished or found out socially, yet so many of their outrageous behaviors seem to show lack of fear (of people seeing them do terrible things in public)....yet the stem of their behavior *is* fear and protecting something about themselves through manipulating others through fear. Thank you for this insightful video. Lots to think about!
Agree, it is fear. It is prevalent. It is a fear that is difficult to understand. It must be approached through abstract modeling to grasp the manifestation of behavior.
It varies with narcissists, though - some will desperately cling onto those close to them in order to use and manipulate them for as long as possible, others will be quick to devalue and discard. I guess the latter tends to happen more when they realise they are "onto them" or when you confront them over the emotional coldness/distance, though. They seem almost like flip-sides of each other, which can create a sort of confusion and contradiction in (hardly unheard of) co-morbidity I guess, as BPD sufferers I guess do plenty to "test" people and drive them away, because they expect to be abandoned anyway, but as long as you're feeding that fragile ego and giving them what they want, those with NPD will to the opposite, do all they can to pull you back in and keep you trapped there. Though I guess when you get a bit wise to things and you don't feed NPD sufferers as much as they would like, they likewise try to test you and force you to leave so they can then blame it all on you afterwards.
@@TheGreatGodPan ppl w NPD want u there cuz they need narcissistic supply or they wanna die so it’s the same thing basically they actually need u or someone or theyll get very depressed the only diff is i feel like narcissists can be more dismissive but borderlines will become more obsessive
and that is actually totally common and understandable for all human beings. since prehistory. fear of being alone and forgotten is evolutionary. but today it takes different shapes and is perhaps aggravated in people with personality disorders.
This video explains both vulnerable narcissism and grandiose narcissism. Like when a vulnerable narcissist turns themselves inside out while trying to people please and then who after refusing to admit the embarrassment of not being able to afford it anymore and then losing everything gets resistant depression after a big let down no matter how much emotional support they have received after being taken advantage of along with how successful the treatment was for their physical condition. Or when a grandiose narcissist spends exorbitant amounts of money to sue someone when letting it go would make a lot more sense. For example if a narcissist elitist person after inviting a romantic unmarried couple to their time share while making it clear to them no rental fees will be charged to them then later after they didn't later get to hire the female person part of that romantic couple as a housekeeper for them at less than minimum wage then after carrying on a time consuming character assassination campaign about both people in the romantic couple after the let down of not getting a break on housekeeping fees then taking it one step further by taking the female person part of the romantic couple to court for fraud. The common factor among both types of narcissist is the belief that bad things happen most to people who have brought it on themselves somehow by not living up to expectations and so the whole time while attempting to get ahead they start feeling the need to construct more and more of a false identity for themselves whenever seeing someone else suffer so they don't have to expend too much energy offering anyone compassion and support while facing up to the 2 common enemies to all which is called death and evil.
I enjoyed this video. Thanks!Having known my MIL for 40 years, I am still not sure what is going on with her. She is all over the BPD/NPD traits. She is at the point where she has alienated all her friends, 2 of her DIL including me, some of her grandkids and great grandkids. I can site examples of insults, intimidation, manipulation, lies, lack of empathy, easily offended if not treated with admiration, perceived slights that she can't let go of, targeting one of her daughters and me, trying to convince others that I am keeping her family from her, demanding I speak to her after I cut her off, went from speaking intelligently to crying like a child during an "apology" (2 months later she was back to her same old), claims not to remember conversations and changes the narrative constantly which I now agree with. Like my husband says she only likes being with her own kids and does not like it if she's not the center of attention... she'll stand off to the side and quietly seethe. Her main focus at 86 is not spending the rest of her life without her kids. So fear of abandonment? She would be an interesting client for a therapist willing to take her on!
Chances are great👉she had a real shitty childhood or caretakers at the root👉Also, some medications can cause such behaviors (benzos/antidepressants)👉instead of armchair diagnosing we should first seek to understand by asking uncomfortable questions!
Alcoholism, neediness and really, really bad spending habits. My partner gets very insecure and sometimes accuses me of cheating when I want to spend time away from him with my friends. The alcohol consumption is the worst because there doesn't seem to be the impulse control there - tends to get angry, but mostly very emotional, cries, neediness and then splits to child like self. Has cut down considerably now with a full time job. He needs some kind of structure to the chaos otherwise left to own devices is just leaving someone in their own head built on self destruction. I'm not going to lie, it is the most difficult relationship, but I also know he is a good person and has good intentions but the behaviour sometimes doesn't match up. See how it goes anyway. The worst part is just feeling on edge and not knowing what to expect in situations sometimes. In saying that though, being in a constant state of anxiety and getting angry on occasion (my behalf) is not helpful either. I think trying to understand it and try and implement ways to help might be good for recovery. I also understand, that there may only be temporary resolution of symptoms.
Then on the flip side, he can be incredibly caring, loving and can be quite happy and productive. It does me emotional whiplash, but then I could not comprehend how awful it would to be the person experiencing those states. I really don't think borderline sufferers are the awful people they believe themselves to be. They and other people have had some pretty awful upbringings and circumstances which unfortunately, have changed perception and altered normal development in critical stages of their life. BUT, like anyone else, that is not an excuse to not try to better yourself in adulthood or work with professionals in developing better coping mechanisms. Certainly isn't an excuse to hurt others, even if you feel in turmoil and need to release the rage.
@@hokeypokeypanda I love your insightful comment. If you can get him to a psychiatrist and put on mood stabilizers and antidepressants it might make him into the man you would want to stay with. His neediness and insecurity, his mood swing and impulsive nature will probably be greatly minimized....I take my meds and life is good again. I don't need a reason to be happy...I just am 😀
I've been studying a lot on cluster B's (a lot with your videos, Dr Grande,, of course). One researcher I saw said something like NPD is BPD with a "covering" on top, hiding the split in the self. I believe that's a very good description since BPDs are mostly "sad" and NPDs are mostly "happy". However, I believe the narcissistic wound they carry is very similar and that both live in denial of the self. So, as for fear, it seems their biggest (unconscious) fear is fear of their real selves, projected in/onto other people. As for ASPD, I believe it's a "level up", let's say. They seem to be above the need for approval of NPDs and BPDs, where envying mostly turns to hating. As they usually say in videos on UA-cam: "I'm speaking here to people like me, not to others, normal people". As for their "romantic" interests, I note narcissists, borderlines and histrionics usually tend to "fall in love" with sociopaths and psychopaths (who are "upper" in the low empathy spectrum, bit project an image of power), and borderlines and histrionics (but also narcissists, of course) tend to relate to people high in the empathy spectrum, so they can enjoy using the partner's empathy to project what they lack. Anyways, I'm trying to speak on the definitions, but it's also necessary to consider the overlapping of them, which makes things more complex. I believe most of them carry a level of psychopathy within, so... it's hard to tell. I hope I could express some ideas well. Thank you for all as usual, Dr Grande.
Do you happen to have any links the ASPD UA-camrs you mentioned in your post? I did a search but didn't find much coming directly from people on this particular spectrum. :(
I've been coming on here searching for what you've just stated. I married & divorced a NPS years ago. Only recently started dating a man who has been diagnosed with BPD but have started to have an eerie feeling that his behaviour is typical of NPD but more subtle. I can feel my mind & body reacting as in the past. Either BPD person can have NPD personality or BPD is NPD in a more mutated & very covert form. Isn't the world just getting more evil!!😱
@@temamaximiser I'm sorry for your experiences. I appreciate naming, etc. Most important of all, you/ we already know: abuse is abuse. So, if your gut feeling tells you that, you/we now know what to do.☺ And, yes, I agree, more and more people like that are showing up around. Truly sad.
I've just severed a friendship with a borderline; we've fallen out and "reconciled" a thousand times this year. I'm wondering if she might have NPD as well; she always has to turn the conversation to be about herself whenever someone else are talking about something meaningful to them, she's been gaslighting and manipulating me for months, she cannot see anything outside of herself, and so on. I am sick and tired of this. I don't care if her behavior can be explained in terms of a disorder anymore; this has affected me to the degree of having suicidal ideation. I've been going through difficult times this year, and she has been part of my support system. Now when I tried to tell her that "you're pushing your ideas onto me; I just want a friendship, I don't want you to try and fix me" (she constantly acts as if I am broken and defect), she lashed out on me about "how horrible it had been to support me" and so on.... when she had the opportunity all along to notify me! I was even actively enquiring about whether she had the time and resources for it, which she claimed to have! Everything I deal with, she's trying hijack and turn into her own issues. She's unable to offer support without going into rants about that "she relates so much!" and from thereon she makes the conversation all about herself. Whenever I find something that works for me, she is there to pull me back down, convince me that "this will never really make me happy!" She accuses me of "hating people" because I am not too fond of her little circle, although I have other friends outside of her. She accuses me of "lying to my therapist" in claiming that I am doing fine.... although the majority of my issues now are probably due to her godforsaken manipulation. I am not taking this anymore. I'm not saying this to talk crap about BPs in general; I have another friend who has the same disorder and we go well along. That friendship isn't toxic like this (which is why I am suspecting co-occurring npd with this first person). But I just can't do this anymore. Trying to greyrock and go no-contact from now on, which might be difficult seeing as we are in the same community and have mutual friends. But I do need to get away, for the sake of my mental health.
this held my attention. asked myself questions now i'm a happier sort. yes,fear,discomfort,no redemption of a worthy self. life in past seemed not worth the struggle. like those religious images of little bodies falling into hell. falling....
Excellent as always. My experience of being in a relationship with someone with BPD was that empathy only really was shown when it benefitted her. So I wondered if she only really had cognitive empathy? However, I suspected she was more vulnerable NPD than BPD really.
@@temamaximiser You said it! I'm thinking those with BPD are really just covert narcissist also known as vulnerable narcissist. Coverts do exactly what you described, hide.
@@silvershadow7655 ok, yes, from my FP, I do want attention :) I don’t like being the focus of attention for any reason in a *social situation* with a group of people, even a small group of 4 or 5 people. I completely clam up and get really nervous, and later ruminate over every word I said, wondering if anything sounded weird or “wrong.”
Im grateful that i concluded early in life. That id need help. That how i was raised was so dysfunctional of course id have issues later in life. Essentially having been abandoned because i was telling about the abuse in my home against me and my sister while awake ,and when we’d sleep we had to expect to have a violent blanket party thrown by our hateful drunk parents. Growing up with kids that committed terrible crimes was a young fate i didn’t deserve to have. Furthermore i have spent a lifetime trying to undo the pain of being rejected by the only safety i knew.
Don’t define who you are today based on your upbringing (victim mentality)👉You are who you are today is because (insert what you’ve done since becoming an adult & how your own actions since have made you who you are today!)👉We are & will BE the very story we tell ourselves 👉those in the victim mentality use their childhood abuse to justify their denial of holding themselves accountable to their actions/failures of today! No one dies from a snake bite👉it’s the venom (abuse/resentmentSsss) that circulates through our bloodstream that inevitably kills us👉You are not what happened to you unless you choose to define yourself that way👉the beautiful thing about this: You didn’t have the power to protect yourself from the abuse as a child but as an adult , you do👉We are & will always BE our THOUGHTS 👉And thoughts demand Action, less you will forever be struck in a rumination of your youth 👉Git to tell the child within you as the adult you are today that you’re safe now & forgive yourself for allowing another’s behavior to affect/effect your whole life👉A child can’t understand that you can’t get wet by the word water but the adult in you can so, cut the chains that bind you to your youth & abusers & Live your Best life NOW, bc if you don’t you will bleed out on everyone who has contact w you moving forward! I’m sorry you were not treated as you should’ve been but we’re here now, and that you can & you will protect yourself (and the child within) 👉many are dealt w a bad hand but it really does matter what u do w that hand that will matter in the end❤
@@kimlarso Dont assume you understand where i am at in this journey. I am grateful for every moment of inner depth and understanding of myself i have had. That post was “4” years ago. “4” years. Thanks for the concern. Be well and thank you.
Are there any studies you find relevant that correlate bad posture (specifically linked to an increase production of stress hormones like cortisol) and its effects on the emotional stability as a trait in the FFM or on the literal physical ability to withstand emotional stress meant as a sort of measurable characteristic of the CNS and the affect on mental health in general ? Always being curious about it. I am really digging into your content thanks
It's weird, I do know someone personally who has BPD, and they are NOT scared of abandonment. It's more intense emotions with frequent changes in mood, unstable social/work life, paranoia, overpleasing, feeling alienated, dissociative episodes, etc.
Perfectly possible to have BPD and not have the fear of abandonment. You only need to have any 5 of the possible 9 diagnostic criteria. It's one of the most "famous" and common of the criteria but still very possible to have BPD without it. In many countries, BPD is now more commonly called "Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder" (EUPD) which I think is a better name.
One observation that both share is emotional dysregulation and or distress intolerance subclinical. I believe many individuals with narcissistic traits split, A LOT! Deviating from that rigid view is a painful experience. Both personalities are very self destructive, the ego of Narcissus results in "cutting off one's nose to spite their face" relationally speaking. (It's like a tug of war to be taken care of through dishonest means)
This was very interesting. I like the way you broke it down to compare different disorders. I rather appreciate your theory here. VIDEO SUGGESTION: Have you thought about doing a video on object relations and object permanence what adult traits can arise from lacking a good grasp of those milestones as it relations to personality disorders? What are they and what nurtures them and what happens when a person lacks them?
I liked Sam Vaknin's take that the Narcissist is the failed Borderline Psychopath, who is able to make the transformation into the creation of an alter who can foot the blame for psychopathic behaviours. The narcissist is beholden to the outside world, whereas the BDP psychopath can dissociate to compartmentalize abusive, emotionally dysregulated traits-therefore is able to bypass the connection to the consequence of their actions.
My theory on a common thread is empathy. They all lack it to arrive degree that creates their disorder. NPD it's recognised. BPD the lack of empathy leads to them not understanding they won't just be abandoned or rejected for their true self. HPD, their selfish need for attention means lack of understanding that others need it too. ASPD just really doesn't care to understand others unless it's in some way required for manipulation. In some way the other personality disorders also fail to understand others, for instance the fact that they're not required to be perfect, aren't the target of malicious intent or attention.
Thank you Dr Grande. This is a very interesting vlog! Is it possible that BPD and NPD are one and the same but on a sliding scale? Much like the Autism Spectrum and Bipolar are now defined in DSM 5?
I suffer from BPD and my ex has NPD and this relationship was such a nightmare now that I’m out of it… we both did so much damage it’s ridiculous… I feared being alone and now I’m alone all because I couldn’t properly manage my need for validation.. I never wanted him to go anywhere and I would sit there and tell him all the things I saw about him I didn’t like. I think it stems from being a little girl thinking I was all that and my mom repeatedly telling me I was not all that and I was only fair looking
Yes, adopt a more universal psychological term, perhaps ~ Emotional Pain Disorder (EmPD) encompassing bpd, npd, etc. It's more generally associated but also more humanly relatable.
It's not surprising at all that there will often be cases of co-morbidity of the two - both are often rooted in similar trauma, neglect and even outright abuse in childhood, and, in the case of NPD I guess, receiving the wrong kind of attention and flattery alongside that troubled home life perhaps. Anger is really important and I think with cases where both are present, it seems difficult to identify what's related to the characteristic mood swings/disregulated emotions of BPD and the "narcissistic rage" of NPD (which also comes with disregulated emotion in addition to this rage, such as uncontrollable depression, the same linked to BPD I guess). The confusion that arises from seeing both present I guess is asking which is more dominant, though the patterns of both are easy to understand, the behaviour and patterns of outright narcissism are often a lot easier to identify and quite dominant, perhaps because unlike BPD, which is perhaps less "grounded" in something, NPD people need to be firmly rooted in that artificially bloated ego and false confidence in order to mask that huge insecurity and fragile ego, which those with BPD are perhaps not quite so good at doing. I reckon in cases with both, the NPD naturally becomes a bit more dominant because of this. Also hugely unfortunate I guess with it being, as far as I can gather, far harder to treat and get sufferers to reflect on and address than BPD.
My ex is a narcissist and I believe his ex(who had 6yrs relationship with him) has BPD... 1) She would do extreme things to kept him in the relationship (fly across the country, spent a lot on him, threatened to kill herself) 2) She has depression and have difficulty to decide anything. 3) She got panic attack easily. When she panic, she freezes, couldn’t breathe, and cry. And very small thing could trigger her. Before I discovered my ex is a narc, I thought he must be a compassion guy willing to put up the dramas. Now I know he loved the dramas because her emotion ups and downs actually was excellent supplies for him. Also he could be “the sane one” in the relationship. It was such a toxic relationship... I can’t believe I couldn’t see the red flags when I first heard their past...
You cannot be both. There are not a lot of shared traits, besides fear as stated in this video. Consider BPD as failed NPD, both originating in childhood trauma. Both can be sweet, both can be evil, but you using the term sweet I think you had to deal with BPD. Look for a list of traits of both PD's and you will know for sure.
If fear is the opposite of love, and all thoughts and actions are motivated by one or the other, it would stand to reason that those who cannot love properly would be primarily motivated by love’s opposite. My BPD covert narcissist husband certainly was. He killed himself on 12/7, abandoning our two children.
I'm in recovery at cocaine/alcoholics anonymous. If you listen to people talking at these meetings you can tell they had/have personality disorders of various kinds. The interesting thing is they all lived their lives in fear but they would not acknowledge that fear to them selves or others. Vulnerable narcissists will admit to living in anxiety and other problems because making people feel sorry for them is a means of manipulation but they will not admit to what causes they're real feelings of being exposed for who they are.
Yes you can link the discard and wanting to get back at each other. The borderline might take on narcissist NPD and get tired of the narcissist and want to outdo them especially with a comorbid of pmdd the borderline will turn into the narcissist and borderline at the same time. I can personally say I’ve got just about every disorder due to benzo withdrawals and trauma. A whole new world of hell opens up. It is getting better though with time.
I think the fear of shame might really be a fear of not being good enough to be loved which also connects to fear of rejection, abandonment, etc. because it could be perceived by them that the only reason one would be is because they aren't enough to begin with. Just my thoughts but in people I've known who are diagnosed BPD or are narcissistic that is a common thread. Deep, deep insecurity of self and their inner self worth even if it's disguised with a cover of being the "best." Interesting video and something to think about though.
My sister and mother are both BPD. My sister can't stay in a job for long because she somehow finds herself in drama with one of her co-workers because they did supposedly something to her. When in actuality she is just severly insecure. I take it BPD has roots in insecurity.
Fear. A deficit of Serotonin, perhaps? I thought I saw somewhere on UA-cam that the receptors for physical pain were the same as emotional pain to some degree.
With ASD and intellectual disability I fear improper eye contact, making people uncomfortable by looking weird. I just want peace with a few disabled like myself. I don't like to be centre of attention. I fear my mind going blank and not knowing right thing to say and also saying the wrong things. Been bullied and victimized because of disabilities. Scary that these disorders have fear because fear is a part of me. I also have discomfort in social situations. Told by psychiatrist all because of abuse. Now I fear I may have pd's nothing like added fear. So much to be overwhelming.
Dr Grande, I'm sorry I had asked you for a video comparing these two Cluster B disorders, not knowing how to find this video. I'm still interested in why untrained people keep getting the two confused . or family wants to argue with clinicians who have reached a concensus. Thank you for the video!
Very interesting, thank you! I also wonder about their fear of death. They seem to have major phobias such as fear of water/drowning, claustrophobia, bugs, etc. Just my observation of ones I consider NPD or BPD. I don’t mean to generalize, just always thought that was an interesting connection or similarity.
Bpds fear being alone to face that horrible emptiness. They might attach to a narcissist who won't abandon them. The narcissist stays with someone who can't see through them or figure them out and bpd people often lack insight. The drama produced in the relationship produces a distraction but also trauma for the bpd person and an outlet or method for the narcissist to raise their own self worth. This bond is strange and complex and fear may be a part of it but there is so much more going on.
When I saw the topic, I thought the link might be something around being stuck in a primitive state of early emotional development and driven therefore by survival-oriented threat perceptions that were appropriate for a baby or toddler, but are extremely maladaptive for an adult, so maybe I wasn't as wrong as I expected to be. I hope you won't mind a suggestion to review in detail at histrionic traits and the full disorder, as well as schizoid and schizotypical disorders and their common comorbidities?
Immaturity is the answer you seek. :) You seem to focus on superficial symptoms too much. Although they can be problematic, they are not the disorder itself. Cluster B people seem to need their true self (overshadowed by the false self) to finally grow up. The problem is removing the superficially adult false self and getting to the inner child (the real person), though. The subconscious/unconscious lack of trust in cluster B people makes this ridiculously hard.
Hmm. I don't really understand what you are saying. It sounds a little like psychobabble to. Sorry. I did read it several times. I guess I'm just dumb.
@@h.borter5367 They mean that both pwBPD and pwNPD need to shed this unrealistic self image they've created for themselves in order to mature. They're projecting a caricature of who they are for security and won't let it go. This is usually seen with things like "happy family," "perfect mom/dad," "I'm the best at this." These false portraits seem to connect with both of the disorders, but BPD seems to be different in the way that it ties into fragile sense of self.
As ever, I found this to be very informative. I also wish I could learn to pace my speech patterns like yours...is it a psych thing? A dedicated module/workshop in the degree program? 😁 In all seriousness though, I wish it was easier to get referrals (here in the UK) if you think you have a personality disorder. As much as free healthcare is awesome, the waiting times can be shocking. Does anyone based in the UK have any advice for getting a referral and/or finding specialised therapists?
For Npd, the narcissist would say they have fear of abandonment which would actually be them losing their supply. For Npd, the unstable relationship could be the narcissist love bombing their supply to get something out of them then devaluation soon after, going in a never ending cycle.
I found this video because I think I was a narcissist about a year ago, somethings happened in my life and now I have an intense inferiority complex compared to others and it’s driving me crazy , so would it be possible to go from a narcissistic prideful brat - a low self esteemed wimp
I would like to hear about a possible common factor between Borderline PD and the trauma-response of fight (and possibly the other three of flight, freeze, fawn).
Hello Dr. Grande. I have seen traits of grandiose narcissism in some in one of my co workers and my boss seem to have tendencies to borderline personality. Another one seem to have vulnerable narcissistic and borderline. The others seem To be normal. The others are fantastic and even sweet. questions: how common are those traits that I mentioned. Do most people have a combination. I say that because none of us are perfect. How do I stay healthy when the manager and the boss are sick. They both are annoying but they are actually most of the time good to me. Themanager gossips, mistreats people and says he is very assertive, smart and can learn his new job in a in a day. The boss gossips with that manager and behaves erratic. Very manipulative. How can I behave best around people like that. I am trying not to talk too much and just do my job.
I agree with the concept of fear. The biggest similarities I see is the need to use others for emotional regulation and reliance for a sense of self because the sense of self is so fragile. So I guess that ties into your construct of fear. I often hear the word "appliance" used with NPD, but I also see it with BPD. How do you feel about this term and do you think it applies in both areas? Perhaps could "fear" be better replaced with an "emptiness"?
The root of pride is insecurity, the constructs of narcissism/psychopathy are pride personified. The root of bpd is fear of abandonment. The root of schizoid is fear of intimacy. I don’t know enough about the other personality disorders
Self-image is the worst for me, I feel like I'm possessed most the time. n other times I feel like I'm what has "possessed" me... I think I have a good heart n care, but I think about terrible things..at times I smile as I dwell on the level violence my fantasies can conjure. I feel like it's a gargoyles nail scratching at my brain, begging me to slip and give in to the rage or whatever tf I got going on. I may not be taken serious bcuz my freedom with my words, i dont have shame bcuz i hate anyone who would judge me. I'm just saying, I'm losing it and cant tell anyone without being exiled and called crazy... but locking a dog away in total darkness doesn't make him a beast? Yeah ok world
Hi, could you possibly do a video on comorbid BPD and ASPD? I was recently diagnosed with both and would be interested to hear your experiences dealing with these types of individuals and what sort of traits they’d most likely possess. Thanks.
Odd question --- Would you consider having been raised in a fear-based home congruent with the idea that an invalidating environment can contribute to the development of BPD/NPD traits? From another of your videos --- also very interesting to see that having bipolar disorder makes one more prone to BPD as well. :-( Another question: Is there research to show that bi-polar disorder is more or less heritable than BPD? And, not sure if this makes sense, but....are comorbidities (like bipolar/BPD) researched for heritability? Have no idea how one would research that, but, hey, I thought I'd ask. :-)
I disagree with BPD lacking in empathy. I understand pain and suffering so deeply. I connect with other people in there pain. I feel there pain.. I could understand my ex had NPD. I could relate to him in many ways
I have BPD,lots of people have,I had a BAD BAD BAD BAD chihldhood...SCARY AND UNBELIEVEBLE..PARENTS NOT THERE...ALCHOOLIC GRANDPARENT GREW ME UP..WITH SCARED TO DEATH GRAND MOTHER..MY PERSONALITY IS RUINED,IMOTIONALLY I HAVE NOTHING TO GIVE
Can BPD fear being abandoned by just one person? They don’t seem to care if others abandon them. Do you think the fear that a kidnapper or trafficker has of losing their victim be called a fear of abandonment or is that more of a NPD trait of losing control of someone? Or maybe it’s really jealousy, which is in both NPD and BPD? Or it could be a fear of pain as you said.
The guy I’m talking to seemed very genuine and that’s how i fell in love with him he said his wife cheated on him and she left kind of disappeared on him for a while and that’s why he hadn’t gotten a divorce because he couldn’t get a hold of her but they are separated so I decided to continue talking to him he told everyone he had a 4 yr old daughter who died in a car crash but I found his wife’s fb and turns out the “dead daughter” is very much alive and not even his biological daughter it’s just his step daughter and I caught him texting other girls and he Denys it even when I show him the evidence of it he was in the military he claims he has diagnosed depression/ anxiety /PTSD& adhd but I’m sure adhd wouldn’t make you lie to the extent he has I’m so confused to what he has because it sounds like he has both narcissism and bpd or im confused because he can apologize but he blames me for it so it’s like ??? His lies sound so honest lol he blocked me everywhere except on a game we play and he sends me gifts on the game and I’m sure it’s to get my attention the reason he blocked me was because I told him I know all the truth (I told him I know his daughter doesn’t exist) he never replied but he still sends me gifts on the game I send them back to him because I’m not mad at him for being sick with this mental illness if he has it but I wanna see what he has to say (I told him I wouldn’t question him) but idk
Individuals with both NPD and BPD in one are maybe susceptible and persistent although similarities also evident than the individuals with both NPD and ADHD in one were unlikely no locked to be susceptible because no similarities found to be mergence (correct me if I'm wrong) findings number 2 individuals with suspected ADHD and BPD in one can be susciptible under the serious mechanisms of disorder (correct me if I'm wrong) therefore; The individuals with BPD are likely independent to be common serious denominator than the individuals with ADHD and the NPD in one have no serious clinical mergence to each others (correct me if I'm wrong)
Is it possible to have significant emotional disregulation, manipulation and a lack of recognizing other peoples boundaries when dignosed with ADHD only ??
"A fear of failure; a fear of being less than perfect" really spoke to me, as well as fear of shame and an inability to trust. Sadly, I've been married to the same wonderful man for 35 years, but I admit I still can't trust him. Fear rules my life.
You're such a "distrustful Debra"... Cut the man some slack, Debaroo! I can tell you he's a trustworthy guy... for sure... I know, I tried to sleep with him countless times... he said he's "Married, and not into other men"... I said "No way! Me neither! See! We have so much in common!😘... Plus, I'm gender fluid! (So its totally not gay, dude...😗✋😓)"... But, but... he still rejected me!!!😣... And I was looking sexy asf in my "short shorts" at the time too!... if that doesn't prove he's faithful... Idk what will?!😎
FEAR IS A LIAR. REVERE GOD. BLESSINGS FRIEND. 1 JOHN 4:4.
I had been been pondering these concepts for decades regarding my mother, her father and one brother who share(d) these baffling and for me crazy making character features.
Dr. Grande with my relatives there was another great fear and that was the idea of seeing any mental health professionals. The fear of being found out.
I think my Ex had BPD. She would call me in the middle of the night threatening suicide. Would constantly criticize me on the weirdest things like the inside of my ears were too dark , my eyes were too eye shaped. Would spend a bunch of money that she didn't really have on clothes and makeup. Asked me to introduce her to an Ex's kid that was *NOT* mine and started crying when I said no. But wait there's more. We were at a grocery store she dropped on the floor and broke down crying because they were out of organic spinach. When I broke up with her she threatened to get me fired and to prove that she could she falsely accused a co-worker of sexual harassment and he was fired. I was stuck in this relationship for about 2 years. She broke up with because she met a man unlike me only had one flaw and that was that he was married. That cheating bastard did me a hell of a favor.
I'm really sorry you went through that. Sounds like she may have had npd too and a bunch of other things. I hope you know most borderlines aren't like that, unfortunately if your ex was a borderline it sounds like she was an extreme case.
@@nicorizzo5402 thanks, it is appreciated
@@nicorizzo5402, sorry but her case is the standard.
@@FarrakhanWolcott, praise the bastard! He has saved your ass. 😅
@@wolfray2672 No it's really not.
By the way Dr. Grande, you have spoiled your subscribers and viewers by uploading each day a video last week.
Thank you for doing this 😃
You are quite welcome! For whatever reason, I have been a bit more productive over the last few weeks. My goal is to release a minimum of two videos per week, so I guess I overdid it by a little -
Gee, Dr Grande, you're hard to follow lol. But everything you do is so interesting and deep so I'm always trying to catch up, also with old videos. Thank you for all.
@@DrGrande Wow - Dr. Grande I just noticed this comment here and you have really become ridiculously productive nowadays - uploading daily I believe. Great videos. I need to rewatch this one again later. I am learning a lot.
@@Marcelube I know, right? I keep asking Dr Grande to do videos that I'm seeing he has covered some of the topics already but I could spend hours watching them!
Thank you so much for your clarity on this. My mother has BPD but is also extremely manipulative and because of her abuse I have CPTSD and am trying to figure things out and break a cycle of generational abuse.
I am also trying to break generational abuse so hard. Some of why I waited later in life to have kids. I’ll be damned they grow up damaged like me.
I am also trying to break generational abuse so hard. Some of why I waited later in life to have kids. I’ll be damned they grow up damaged like me.
You analyzed it very good Dr. Grande👍
I agree. Fear is the emotion most personality disorders have in common.
I do like to tell you also some of my own interpretations about fear and PD's.
I think you forgot one hudge fear. It's the fear of intimacy, because this fear is actually about the fear of rejections, abandonments, criticism, not being loved, liked, not getting enough attention, validation, etc, etc. when we are in a relationship. That's why all PD's have relationship problems in common. They have problems with empathy and/or a relation where giving and taking is in balance. Mostly they are very emotional needy, because they got lack of love in their childhood, like the one with BPD. Someone with NPD can't give love. Anxiety creates inside emptiness in many personality disorders.
When there is no intimacy, then there is less of all these emotional pains. Probably that is why schizoid is in depth also some kind of a compulsive defense mechanism for fear of intimacy, which started in early childhood?
Yes the fear of not being perfect, like we see in NPD and OCPD is another fear in first, but it's actually the same fear of being rejected by others (in relationships), because of BEING not a God-like human being (NPD) and the fear of DOING things not perfect and/'or BEHAVE moral not perfect enough as a human being (OCPD).
It's the shame about the real imperfect self in being and/or behaving.
Unfortunately people with OCPD (and NPD') often didn't learn in their childhood, that being good or doing things good as a person is good enough! The parents were very hard to satisfy by their children, because these parents self have mental health problems too.
Let's not forget about the role of genetic components. Specifically the 'dysfunction' of the amygdala in the brain, where our anxiety is biological managed. Lots of neuroscience based research has indicate that.
The great female psychoanalyst Karen Horney already figured it out very good. She explained it in her books so well, when in the young childhood a child is not being really loved and his emotional needs were not enough met the BASIC FEAR(S) develop into the child and all kinds of pathological personality traits and compulsive relationship strategies (going to, against or away from others) are kind of less born in a person.
Again......I think you really did a very good job in analyzing this topic!
Thank you doc 😃
I agree, though many of these personality disorders do experience empathy, including bpd. The trouble is we seem to not know how a relationship is supposed to work.
@@nicorizzo5402 Yes, I know. BPD, and all cluster C PD's can be empathetic. Indeed, mostly PD's don't know how a relationship work. Mostly there's problems with knowing how to indicate boundaries.
This is interesting insight. I have narcissistic traits, if not NPD, and I struggle immensely with the idea of needing to BE perfect and if I’m anything less, I’m worthless and unlovable. It’s a very painful way to live but I know no other way. While I wasn’t abused and my parents love me, I have never felt truly loved or good enough just being who I am.
This is a very beautiful explanation, for some reason (as a narcissist) I keep attracting borderline people into my life, so this has always been a mystery to me. I loved the compassionate way that this has been explained. (Instead of talking harsh and judging or saying that we are toxic)
I agree that after all the other symptoms have been stripped down from the equation, the root is fear, and people is ready sometimes to do anything to avoid that fear of the pain. So people make weird things, like getting overly attached or posessive to others.
Dr Grande, the first time I am trying to make a comment. I an 76 yo only throught u tube realised that my mother was NPD. At age 30 I married a man 6 y older, but realised recently that he had BPD. I was co-dependent. But because of his rages, which I managed to hide from my children, I lived in fear great parts of the 36 years of marraige, He fied age 62. One thing that stands out about him for me, is that he was very shallow, unreliable, often did not pay the electricity bill, and we were cut off......lazy, but very intelligent in studying. Very attracted to men when studyjing and stayed very late while "studying together". He had a sense of thinking s lot of himself, and a lack of empathy. I still cannot make out really, what kind of a man he was. Later in life he suffered a lit from depression, always played ill, and was very rude when ill. He died from a sudden heart attack. he always refused to take any meds, and to see n psychologist. I now realise that that marraige was actually a nightmare, but it made me strong
Helet , I learned that my mother was NPD late in life. I attracted a sociopath business partner and a BPD girlfriend. It was not until I was 63 that I understood about Cluster B Disorders (and why I was a magnet). Better late than never.
@@vampireslayer1989 I am sorry you also attracted a cluster B disordered person. I typed a mistake...I married. At age 20. To get away from the toxic family. Whole family was toxic...those 3 btothers still alive...are stil grandiose.I was the only girl.... .scapegoat
Wow 36 years is a long nightmare! I hope you are doing your best to now make your walking life a libing dream. Those people will literally take years off your life because they're dead inside.
I hope you have found a really great trauma therapist and if not start looking for one. You will bee needing it having lived so long in an environment with a person like that. Good luck and keep commenting your voice is perfect and worth being heard.
Consider secondary psychopathy instead of BPD.
I have BPD, and I don’t have a fear of not being the center of attention, in fact, I hate being the center of attention, it’s really engulfing. Very informative video, I love them all! 👍🏼
Then u don't have bpd
@@dhrubajyoti14 BPD is not a cookie cutter disorder. We are still individuals. And did you know that there are 256 different combinations of presentations of BPD, based on the DSM 5 criteria?
@@amandastein6247 ok. I don't know that much..Btw have you take therapy?
And if there are so many combinations of bpd then everybody must have some of the parts of these combinations
@@dhrubajyoti14 please google the 9 criteria for BPD. 5/9 are required for a diagnosis. If you don’t know much about BPD, why are trying to tell me I don’t have it? That makes ZERO sense. Use google for basic info.
@@amandastein6247 i have the the idea about 5/9 thing. I'm not a therapist btw so not an expert and don't just claim u have bpd. Visit a therapist first then claim & shout as much as you can.
Well borderlines don't have a need for admiration the way narcissists do, in bpd's case it's actually a need for validation or acceptance. Npd needs to be seen as special, superior, perfect, etc. Bpd just wants to be seen as ok or normal cause we're constantly thinking we're bad people. This also means that we don't fear not being the center of attention the way histrionics do, we just fear being alone. Sense of entitlement also isn't present in many borderlines but I have seen it in some, it's really much more common in npd than in bpd. The thing about all these symptoms is not everyone with each disorder has all these symptoms, like not everyone with npd or bpd has that anger symptom.
Very good explained! I always like reading the comments you have been posting 😃
I have narcissistic traits as well as “identity disturbance,” according to my psychologist. I definitely have a strong need for admiration and attention, especially based on my looks and secondarily, my intelligence. I love the look on people’s faces when I walk by and they gawk at me, but my world comes crashing down on me when someone doesn’t notice me. My mood is literally a see-saw, with random strangers jumping on and controlling it.
I’m still trying to figure out how all these things interplay...the identity issues and need for admiration. The narcissistic traits are definitely more prevalent and impairing than the identity/BPD traits.
Anyway, just wanted to say that I think I agree with you generally, and also wanted to add a narcissist’s perspective. Lord knows we like talking about ourselves!
👍
💯 Absolutely.
Covert narcissists rule from the bottom. pwBPD rule from the bottom by playing on others' needs to care for them. Not such a big difference to be honest
(3:35) Bingo, Dr G. You hit the bull’s eye with the statement that FEAR is at the core of both these disorders and it actually underpins the emergence of SHAME, which in turn drives ANGER toward self or others.
It took me over a lifetime of vulnerable narcissistic abuse to arrive at same conclusion, that of my avoidant personality disorder.
I really enjoyed this video and was stimulated to think of past experiences with BPD and NPD traits to look for common threads. I knew a university freshman who was living away from home for the first time in her life. She was extremely (excessively?) lonely until she fell in with a group of five girls who shared a common interest. She became dependent on the group for support and social activities, but it was more than that. She started to emulate the others as though she was using them to define her identity in her new environment. The others all had boyfriends, but she had never been on a date. That made her different, and she became frantic to find a boyfriend in order to conform to her group. She actually admitted that she worried about being different from the others. She asked a young man who was living with his girlfriend to leave the girlfriend and live with her -- she still had never been on a date! All this seems consistent with BPD behavior. Finally she found a boyfriend and immediately treated him very poorly: she didn't trust or respect him, she treated him as an inferior, dismissed or devalued what he said, accused him of infidelity and lying, etc. The way she treated the boyfriend actually seems more like NPD because she seemed to have little human feeling towards him. Yet she used him as a showpiece, telling her five girlfriends how wonderful he was, and how much in love they were. It looked like she was trying to assure her girlfriends that indeed she had a loving relationship with a man, just as they did. I don't think a BPD sufferer could be that callous towards a partner, or so duplicitous. When the boyfriend broke up with her she reacted in BPD fashion: suicide threats, rage, self-harm, etc. So I think she may have had mixed BPD/NPD traits. She said she'd had "an anxiety problem" for a few years. Perhaps a further increase in anxiety (similar to fear) caused by university life and a need please her social group had brought out these traits.
definitely with 22 years of experience think my partner is BPD AND COVERT NPD. i have had a terrible time and took me all this time to work it out and to leave as still had feelings for him and feel so sorry about his upbringing but can't take any more pain myself
NPD: I will act in a superior way to ensure people will want to be around me.
BPD: I will act in a hypervigilant way about my attachments to ensure people will remain around me.
HPD: I will act in attention-seeking and dramatic ways to ensure people will pay attention and remain around me.
And none of those things ever work for any of them.
Pretty sure I have all 3 of those traits 😂 although only ever been diagnosed as having BPD.
@@tanyasanders7230 Gender bias in diagnosis.
Great video as usual from Doc Grande. You are absolutely spot-on with my borderline - fear of betrayal... by girlfriends and bosses...I always think the girl is 'almost cheating' and the boss is 'looking for excuses' to fire me. NPD Two narcissistic dudes I know who I've told about my borderline have confessed their problem is fear of losing control. When I pressed further, control of what, they said everything. My sense is NPD fear of being found out.. like you said pure shame of something they are or have done and cannot escape/take back. Histrionics, my take is they fear getting old, not being sexy anymore, not being the center of attention they always were (or thought they were).. basically a fear of death. ASPD seem to fear themselves, their 'true selves'.. their hurt child...so they project that child onto others they perceive as weak and play with them.. if someone triggers that vulnerability in the psychopath it angers them...ASPD don't fear danger imho because death would be the easy-out from every having to face themselves in the inevitable vulnerability of old age. Its almost like ASPD have a fear of their original birth...many claim not to be human...but 'alien' or 'another species'... it clearly shows they aren't comfortable having being BORN.
So I'll go with...BPD-betrayal...NPD..shame...HPD.. death...ASPD.. birth! :)
So basically, even though we would call these disorders, they're in fact phobias of feeling certain types of pain (or certain origins of pain) in the cognitive process?
Disorders and phobias are not mutually exclusive. If a phobia causes distress or functional impairment, then it is, by definition, a disorder.
No not at all. The fear (phobia) he talks about is only the link between the two disorders, there's actually a lot more individual stuff going on there.
I realize it is quite off topic but do anybody know of a good site to watch newly released movies online ?
@Brooks Finnegan Flixportal :)
@Willie Donald thanks, signed up and it seems like they got a lot of movies there =) Appreciate it !!
I read that mothers who have narcisstic personality disorder especially on the more dialed up end of the spectrum towards malignant npd can cause some symptoms that can look like bpd for a child of a npd mother who was placed in the sg role
Those who have bpd are typically empathic whereas those w npd lack the ability to feel empathy , and are cunning, callous, highly manipulative and predatory- those with bpd suffer from difficulty w emotional regulation, unstable sense of self, but do feel empathy, the idea is the trauma caused to the child of the npd sociopath mother causes ptsd emotional dysregulation and unstable sense of self, they were never nurtured or validated or allowed to be separate from the npd mother
I am trying for almost 40 years to get a normal or sort of healthy relationship with my biological mother , who has a severe BPD She never raised me and that was a blessing to be fair with you. She raised me only the first six years of my life and they took me out of her care when they noticed I was almost without empathy , drained because of her ... I even replied in all calmth to questions " so when mommy held the gun to her face , what did you think ? " and I replied " I would have been lucky and so would the rest of the household , we would be happy again " . These doctors could not believe the loss of emotion a six year old had ... the damage a severe BPDpatient brings is unsettling . i am thankful for the people who raised me eventually because thanks to them I have empathy ! Sadly she is too unstable... Can not go on anymore , it does not come sideways in this relationship , it was shortlived again ( a week , bravo mother , bravo ... ) they keep coming and want your validation , later on they " forget " about you again ... it s exhausting .
Excellent analysis again Dr Grande.
My mother was a borderline personality, my father was a narcissist. They divorced, and my mother immediately married a psychopath. She became more and more detached from reality, which he encouraged. This had the effect of spplitting we siblings apart. My brother became at the least borderline also, while my sister was more sociopathic. I spent years in therapy combatting a pretty severe neurosis. To this day at seventy, I still struggle with relationships, fear and self-loathing. Fortunately, therapy helped me learn to overcome most of my symptoms. For anyone else who came from such a dysfunctional environment, please get help. Otherwise you may face addiction, isolation, compulsivity or suicidal tendencies. Or you may become an overachiever like myself with lack of self care.
Thank you Doctor Grande.
As always Dr. Grande, you've explained it well and to the fullest. Awesome analysis.
This was interesting and really got me thinking! Antisocial PD seems to be the only Cluster B disorder without fear, and we can see how even that leads to problems (and lack of safety for others) in the social construct. Interesting, the Malignant Narcissist fears something about themselves being diminished or found out socially, yet so many of their outrageous behaviors seem to show lack of fear (of people seeing them do terrible things in public)....yet the stem of their behavior *is* fear and protecting something about themselves through manipulating others through fear. Thank you for this insightful video. Lots to think about!
Agree, it is fear. It is prevalent. It is a fear that is difficult to understand. It must be approached through abstract modeling to grasp the manifestation of behavior.
Both relate to fear of being alone. Forgotten and left behind
this is it! that's exactly it! *mic drop*
It varies with narcissists, though - some will desperately cling onto those close to them in order to use and manipulate them for as long as possible, others will be quick to devalue and discard. I guess the latter tends to happen more when they realise they are "onto them" or when you confront them over the emotional coldness/distance, though. They seem almost like flip-sides of each other, which can create a sort of confusion and contradiction in (hardly unheard of) co-morbidity I guess, as BPD sufferers I guess do plenty to "test" people and drive them away, because they expect to be abandoned anyway, but as long as you're feeding that fragile ego and giving them what they want, those with NPD will to the opposite, do all they can to pull you back in and keep you trapped there. Though I guess when you get a bit wise to things and you don't feed NPD sufferers as much as they would like, they likewise try to test you and force you to leave so they can then blame it all on you afterwards.
@@TheGreatGodPan ppl w NPD want u there cuz they need narcissistic supply or they wanna die so it’s the same thing basically they actually need u or someone or theyll get very depressed the only diff is i feel like narcissists can be more dismissive but borderlines will become more obsessive
and that is actually totally common and understandable for all human beings. since prehistory. fear of being alone and forgotten is evolutionary. but today it takes different shapes and is perhaps aggravated in people with personality disorders.
@@dos.2168 good point
I agree with you, as always do! 😁 I believe some form or level of fear and loss underpin most or all mental heath difficulties 🙁
This video explains both vulnerable narcissism and grandiose narcissism. Like when a vulnerable narcissist turns themselves inside out while trying to people please and then who after refusing to admit the embarrassment of not being able to afford it anymore and then losing everything gets resistant depression after a big let down no matter how much emotional support they have received after being taken advantage of along with how successful the treatment was for their physical condition. Or when a grandiose narcissist spends exorbitant amounts of money to sue someone when letting it go would make a lot more sense. For example if a narcissist elitist person after inviting a romantic unmarried couple to their time share while making it clear to them no rental fees will be charged to them then later after they didn't later get to hire the female person part of that romantic couple as a housekeeper for them at less than minimum wage then after carrying on a time consuming character assassination campaign about both people in the romantic couple after the let down of not getting a break on housekeeping fees then taking it one step further by taking the female person part of the romantic couple to court for fraud. The common factor among both types of narcissist is the belief that bad things happen most to people who have brought it on themselves somehow by not living up to expectations and so the whole time while attempting to get ahead they start feeling the need to construct more and more of a false identity for themselves whenever seeing someone else suffer so they don't have to expend too much energy offering anyone compassion and support while facing up to the 2 common enemies to all which is called death and evil.
I enjoyed this video. Thanks!Having known my MIL for 40 years, I am still not sure what is going on with her. She is all over the BPD/NPD traits. She is at the point where she has alienated all her friends, 2 of her DIL including me, some of her grandkids and great grandkids. I can site examples of insults, intimidation, manipulation, lies, lack of empathy, easily offended if not treated with admiration, perceived slights that she can't let go of, targeting one of her daughters and me, trying to convince others that I am keeping her family from her, demanding I speak to her after I cut her off, went from speaking intelligently to crying like a child during an "apology" (2 months later she was back to her same old), claims not to remember conversations and changes the narrative constantly which I now agree with. Like my husband says she only likes being with her own kids and does not like it if she's not the center of attention... she'll stand off to the side and quietly seethe. Her main focus at 86 is not spending the rest of her life without her kids. So fear of abandonment? She would be an interesting client for a therapist willing to take her on!
Chances are great👉she had a real shitty childhood or caretakers at the root👉Also, some medications can cause such behaviors (benzos/antidepressants)👉instead of armchair diagnosing we should first seek to understand by asking uncomfortable questions!
Question: how would BPD appear in males? Your videos are great and enlightening
Thank you so much! Here you go: ua-cam.com/video/_Zf47I-kQTc/v-deo.html
Alcoholism, neediness and really, really bad spending habits. My partner gets very insecure and sometimes accuses me of cheating when I want to spend time away from him with my friends. The alcohol consumption is the worst because there doesn't seem to be the impulse control there - tends to get angry, but mostly very emotional, cries, neediness and then splits to child like self. Has cut down considerably now with a full time job. He needs some kind of structure to the chaos otherwise left to own devices is just leaving someone in their own head built on self destruction.
I'm not going to lie, it is the most difficult relationship, but I also know he is a good person and has good intentions but the behaviour sometimes doesn't match up. See how it goes anyway. The worst part is just feeling on edge and not knowing what to expect in situations sometimes. In saying that though, being in a constant state of anxiety and getting angry on occasion (my behalf) is not helpful either.
I think trying to understand it and try and implement ways to help might be good for recovery. I also understand, that there may only be temporary resolution of symptoms.
Then on the flip side, he can be incredibly caring, loving and can be quite happy and productive. It does me emotional whiplash, but then I could not comprehend how awful it would to be the person experiencing those states.
I really don't think borderline sufferers are the awful people they believe themselves to be. They and other people have had some pretty awful upbringings and circumstances which unfortunately, have changed perception and altered normal development in critical stages of their life. BUT, like anyone else, that is not an excuse to not try to better yourself in adulthood or work with professionals in developing better coping mechanisms. Certainly isn't an excuse to hurt others, even if you feel in turmoil and need to release the rage.
@@hokeypokeypanda I love your insightful comment. If you can get him to a psychiatrist and put on mood stabilizers and antidepressants it might make him into the man you would want to stay with. His neediness and insecurity, his mood swing and impulsive nature will probably be greatly minimized....I take my meds and life is good again. I don't need a reason to be happy...I just am 😀
Hokey pokey panda I dated someone like that once . He was horrible glad I got out
I've been studying a lot on cluster B's (a lot with your videos, Dr Grande,, of course). One researcher I saw said something like NPD is BPD with a "covering" on top, hiding the split in the self. I believe that's a very good description since BPDs are mostly "sad" and NPDs are mostly "happy". However, I believe the narcissistic wound they carry is very similar and that both live in denial of the self. So, as for fear, it seems their biggest (unconscious) fear is fear of their real selves, projected in/onto other people.
As for ASPD, I believe it's a "level up", let's say. They seem to be above the need for approval of NPDs and BPDs, where envying mostly turns to hating. As they usually say in videos on UA-cam: "I'm speaking here to people like me, not to others, normal people".
As for their "romantic" interests, I note narcissists, borderlines and histrionics usually tend to "fall in love" with sociopaths and psychopaths (who are "upper" in the low empathy spectrum, bit project an image of power), and borderlines and histrionics (but also narcissists, of course) tend to relate to people high in the empathy spectrum, so they can enjoy using the partner's empathy to project what they lack.
Anyways, I'm trying to speak on the definitions, but it's also necessary to consider the overlapping of them, which makes things more complex. I believe most of them carry a level of psychopathy within, so... it's hard to tell.
I hope I could express some ideas well.
Thank you for all as usual, Dr Grande.
Do you happen to have any links the ASPD UA-camrs you mentioned in your post? I did a search but didn't find much coming directly from people on this particular spectrum. :(
I've been coming on here searching for what you've just stated. I married & divorced a NPS years ago. Only recently started dating a man who has been diagnosed with BPD but have started to have an eerie feeling that his behaviour is typical of NPD but more subtle. I can feel my mind & body reacting as in the past. Either BPD person can have NPD personality or BPD is NPD in a more mutated & very covert form. Isn't the world just getting more evil!!😱
@@temamaximiser I'm sorry for your experiences.
I appreciate naming, etc. Most important of all, you/ we already know: abuse is abuse. So, if your gut feeling tells you that, you/we now know what to do.☺
And, yes, I agree, more and more people like that are showing up around. Truly sad.
I've just severed a friendship with a borderline; we've fallen out and "reconciled" a thousand times this year. I'm wondering if she might have NPD as well; she always has to turn the conversation to be about herself whenever someone else are talking about something meaningful to them, she's been gaslighting and manipulating me for months, she cannot see anything outside of herself, and so on. I am sick and tired of this. I don't care if her behavior can be explained in terms of a disorder anymore; this has affected me to the degree of having suicidal ideation.
I've been going through difficult times this year, and she has been part of my support system. Now when I tried to tell her that "you're pushing your ideas onto me; I just want a friendship, I don't want you to try and fix me" (she constantly acts as if I am broken and defect), she lashed out on me about "how horrible it had been to support me" and so on.... when she had the opportunity all along to notify me! I was even actively enquiring about whether she had the time and resources for it, which she claimed to have!
Everything I deal with, she's trying hijack and turn into her own issues. She's unable to offer support without going into rants about that "she relates so much!" and from thereon she makes the conversation all about herself. Whenever I find something that works for me, she is there to pull me back down, convince me that "this will never really make me happy!" She accuses me of "hating people" because I am not too fond of her little circle, although I have other friends outside of her. She accuses me of "lying to my therapist" in claiming that I am doing fine.... although the majority of my issues now are probably due to her godforsaken manipulation.
I am not taking this anymore. I'm not saying this to talk crap about BPs in general; I have another friend who has the same disorder and we go well along. That friendship isn't toxic like this (which is why I am suspecting co-occurring npd with this first person). But I just can't do this anymore.
Trying to greyrock and go no-contact from now on, which might be difficult seeing as we are in the same community and have mutual friends. But I do need to get away, for the sake of my mental health.
this held my attention. asked myself questions now i'm a happier sort. yes,fear,discomfort,no redemption of a worthy self. life in past seemed not worth the struggle. like those religious images of little bodies falling into hell. falling....
Excellent as always. My experience of being in a relationship with someone with BPD was that empathy only really was shown when it benefitted her. So I wondered if she only really had cognitive empathy? However, I suspected she was more vulnerable NPD than BPD really.
She can be comorbid
To what i have experienced with both NPD & BPD diagnosed exes. I have an eerie feeling they are one in the same just that BPD hides the NPD better.
@@temamaximiser You said it! I'm thinking those with BPD are really just covert narcissist also known as vulnerable narcissist.
Coverts do exactly what you described, hide.
Thanks for the helpful videos Dr G.
I have BPD, and the last thing I want is to be center of attention...
not even from your "favourite person"?
@@silvershadow7655 ok, yes, from my FP, I do want attention :)
I don’t like being the focus of attention for any reason in a *social situation* with a group of people, even a small group of 4 or 5 people. I completely clam up and get really nervous, and later ruminate over every word I said, wondering if anything sounded weird or “wrong.”
That video is so enriching, thanks so much
Great - loved the threads of your thinking.
Im grateful that i concluded early in life. That id need help.
That how i was raised was so dysfunctional of course id have issues later in life.
Essentially having been abandoned because i was telling about the abuse in my home against me and my sister while awake ,and when we’d sleep we had to expect to have a violent blanket party thrown by our hateful drunk parents.
Growing up with kids that committed terrible crimes was a young fate i didn’t deserve to have.
Furthermore i have spent a lifetime trying to undo the pain of being rejected by the only safety i knew.
:(
Don’t define who you are today based on your upbringing (victim mentality)👉You are who you are today is because (insert what you’ve done since becoming an adult & how your own actions since have made you who you are today!)👉We are & will BE the very story we tell ourselves 👉those in the victim mentality use their childhood abuse to justify their denial of holding themselves accountable to their actions/failures of today! No one dies from a snake bite👉it’s the venom (abuse/resentmentSsss) that circulates through our bloodstream that inevitably kills us👉You are not what happened to you unless you choose to define yourself that way👉the beautiful thing about this: You didn’t have the power to protect yourself from the abuse as a child but as an adult , you do👉We are & will always BE our THOUGHTS 👉And thoughts demand Action, less you will forever be struck in a rumination of your youth 👉Git to tell the child within you as the adult you are today that you’re safe now & forgive yourself for allowing another’s behavior to affect/effect your whole life👉A child can’t understand that you can’t get wet by the word water but the adult in you can so, cut the chains that bind you to your youth & abusers & Live your Best life NOW, bc if you don’t you will bleed out on everyone who has contact w you moving forward! I’m sorry you were not treated as you should’ve been but we’re here now, and that you can & you will protect yourself (and the child within) 👉many are dealt w a bad hand but it really does matter what u do w that hand that will matter in the end❤
@@kimlarso Dont assume you understand where i am at in this journey.
I am grateful for every moment of inner depth and understanding of myself i have had.
That post was “4” years ago. “4” years.
Thanks for the concern.
Be well and thank you.
Are there any studies you find relevant that correlate bad posture (specifically linked to an increase production of stress hormones like cortisol) and its effects on the emotional stability as a trait in the FFM or on the literal physical ability to withstand emotional stress meant as a sort of measurable characteristic of the CNS and the affect on mental health in general ? Always being curious about it. I am really digging into your content thanks
It's weird, I do know someone personally who has BPD, and they are NOT scared of abandonment. It's more intense emotions with frequent changes in mood, unstable social/work life, paranoia, overpleasing, feeling alienated, dissociative episodes, etc.
Perfectly possible to have BPD and not have the fear of abandonment. You only need to have any 5 of the possible 9 diagnostic criteria. It's one of the most "famous" and common of the criteria but still very possible to have BPD without it. In many countries, BPD is now more commonly called "Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder" (EUPD) which I think is a better name.
Could also be Complex-PTSD?! Never good to armchair diagnose anyone!
🦋
Amazing analysis Dr. Grande👏👏👍🏻
One observation that both share is emotional dysregulation and or distress intolerance subclinical. I believe many individuals with narcissistic traits split, A LOT! Deviating from that rigid view is a painful experience. Both personalities are very self destructive, the ego of Narcissus results in "cutting off one's nose to spite their face" relationally speaking. (It's like a tug of war to be taken care of through dishonest means)
This was very interesting. I like the way you broke it down to compare different disorders. I rather appreciate your theory here.
VIDEO SUGGESTION: Have you thought about doing a video on object relations and object permanence what adult traits can arise from lacking a good grasp of those milestones as it relations to personality disorders? What are they and what nurtures them and what happens when a person lacks them?
Be nice to here from u Dr. Grande thanks
Nothing in common!! except being human.
I liked Sam Vaknin's take that the Narcissist is the failed Borderline Psychopath, who is able to make the transformation into the creation of an alter who can foot the blame for psychopathic behaviours. The narcissist is beholden to the outside world, whereas the BDP psychopath can dissociate to compartmentalize abusive, emotionally dysregulated traits-therefore is able to bypass the connection to the consequence of their actions.
Thank you for sharing this.
You're welcome!
My theory on a common thread is empathy.
They all lack it to arrive degree that creates their disorder.
NPD it's recognised.
BPD the lack of empathy leads to them not understanding they won't just be abandoned or rejected for their true self.
HPD, their selfish need for attention means lack of understanding that others need it too.
ASPD just really doesn't care to understand others unless it's in some way required for manipulation.
In some way the other personality disorders also fail to understand others, for instance the fact that they're not required to be perfect, aren't the target of malicious intent or attention.
no. the common trait is ignoring the reciprocity in relationships.
Thank you Dr Grande. This is a very interesting vlog! Is it possible that BPD and NPD are one and the same but on a sliding scale? Much like the Autism Spectrum and Bipolar are now defined in DSM 5?
No; On an organic level NPD can’t be cured but BPD can! Both can be managed w mindful modifications of their behaviors 🦋
I suffer from BPD and my ex has NPD and this relationship was such a nightmare now that I’m out of it… we both did so much damage it’s ridiculous… I feared being alone and now I’m alone all because I couldn’t properly manage my need for validation.. I never wanted him to go anywhere and I would sit there and tell him all the things I saw about him I didn’t like. I think it stems from being a little girl thinking I was all that and my mom repeatedly telling me I was not all that and I was only fair looking
Yes, adopt a more universal psychological term, perhaps ~ Emotional Pain Disorder (EmPD) encompassing bpd, npd, etc. It's more generally associated but also more humanly relatable.
it does seem they're in many ways the same thing just manifested differently
It's not surprising at all that there will often be cases of co-morbidity of the two - both are often rooted in similar trauma, neglect and even outright abuse in childhood, and, in the case of NPD I guess, receiving the wrong kind of attention and flattery alongside that troubled home life perhaps. Anger is really important and I think with cases where both are present, it seems difficult to identify what's related to the characteristic mood swings/disregulated emotions of BPD and the "narcissistic rage" of NPD (which also comes with disregulated emotion in addition to this rage, such as uncontrollable depression, the same linked to BPD I guess). The confusion that arises from seeing both present I guess is asking which is more dominant, though the patterns of both are easy to understand, the behaviour and patterns of outright narcissism are often a lot easier to identify and quite dominant, perhaps because unlike BPD, which is perhaps less "grounded" in something, NPD people need to be firmly rooted in that artificially bloated ego and false confidence in order to mask that huge insecurity and fragile ego, which those with BPD are perhaps not quite so good at doing. I reckon in cases with both, the NPD naturally becomes a bit more dominant because of this. Also hugely unfortunate I guess with it being, as far as I can gather, far harder to treat and get sufferers to reflect on and address than BPD.
My ex is a narcissist and I believe his ex(who had 6yrs relationship with him) has BPD...
1) She would do extreme things to kept him in the relationship (fly across the country, spent a lot on him, threatened to kill herself)
2) She has depression and have difficulty to decide anything.
3) She got panic attack easily. When she panic, she freezes, couldn’t breathe, and cry. And very small thing could trigger her.
Before I discovered my ex is a narc, I thought he must be a compassion guy willing to put up the dramas.
Now I know he loved the dramas because her emotion ups and downs actually was excellent supplies for him. Also he could be “the sane one” in the relationship.
It was such a toxic relationship... I can’t believe I couldn’t see the red flags when I first heard their past...
ive been with someone with npd and bpd and honestly npd was pure evil and my bpd ex was actually really sweet person besides the disorder.
You cannot be both. There are not a lot of shared traits, besides fear as stated in this video. Consider BPD as failed NPD, both originating in childhood trauma. Both can be sweet, both can be evil, but you using the term sweet I think you had to deal with BPD. Look for a list of traits of both PD's and you will know for sure.
If fear is the opposite of love, and all thoughts and actions are motivated by one or the other, it would stand to reason that those who cannot love properly would be primarily motivated by love’s opposite. My BPD covert narcissist husband certainly was. He killed himself on 12/7, abandoning our two children.
Excellent analysis
I'm in recovery at cocaine/alcoholics anonymous. If you listen to people talking at these meetings you can tell they had/have personality disorders of various kinds. The interesting thing is they all lived their lives in fear but they would not acknowledge that fear to them selves or others. Vulnerable narcissists will admit to living in anxiety and other problems because making people feel sorry for them is a means of manipulation but they will not admit to what causes they're real feelings of being exposed for who they are.
Yes you can link the discard and wanting to get back at each other. The borderline might take on narcissist NPD and get tired of the narcissist and want to outdo them especially with a comorbid of pmdd the borderline will turn into the narcissist and borderline at the same time. I can personally say I’ve got just about every disorder due to benzo withdrawals and trauma. A whole new world of hell opens up. It is getting better though with time.
I think the fear of shame might really be a fear of not being good enough to be loved which also connects to fear of rejection, abandonment, etc. because it could be perceived by them that the only reason one would be is because they aren't enough to begin with. Just my thoughts but in people I've known who are diagnosed BPD or are narcissistic that is a common thread. Deep, deep insecurity of self and their inner self worth even if it's disguised with a cover of being the "best." Interesting video and something to think about though.
Too many subjects in one. Didnt stay with title. But of course he's knowledgeable. 👍
My sister and mother are both BPD. My sister can't stay in a job for long because she somehow finds herself in drama with one of her co-workers because they did supposedly something to her. When in actuality she is just severly insecure. I take it BPD has roots in insecurity.
Fear. A deficit of Serotonin, perhaps? I thought I saw somewhere on UA-cam that the receptors for physical pain were the same as emotional pain to some degree.
What disorder doesnt come from fear and distrust?
With ASD and intellectual disability I fear improper eye contact, making people uncomfortable by looking weird. I just want peace with a few disabled like myself. I don't like to be centre of attention. I fear my mind going blank and not knowing right thing to say and also saying the wrong things. Been bullied and victimized because of disabilities. Scary that these disorders have fear because fear is a part of me. I also have discomfort in social situations. Told by psychiatrist all because of abuse. Now I fear I may have pd's nothing like added fear. So much to be overwhelming.
Thank you for helping me understand
So, in the case when the childhood trauma includes fear and shame, than the personality disorder will also include that.
Dr Grande, I'm sorry I had asked you for a video comparing these two Cluster B disorders, not knowing how to find this video. I'm still interested in why untrained people keep getting the two confused . or family wants to argue with clinicians who have reached a concensus. Thank you for the video!
Very interesting, thank you! I also wonder about their fear of death. They seem to have major phobias such as fear of water/drowning, claustrophobia, bugs, etc. Just my observation of ones I consider NPD or BPD. I don’t mean to generalize, just always thought that was an interesting connection or similarity.
Is it possible to have BPD and turn into NPD when in manic phases?
Very helpful, thank you.
I think BPD and NPD also share a childhood pattern of neglect and/or abuse. We both have deep inner child wounds
Bpds fear being alone to face that horrible emptiness. They might attach to a narcissist who won't abandon them. The narcissist stays with someone who can't see through them or figure them out and bpd people often lack insight. The drama produced in the relationship produces a distraction but also trauma for the bpd person and an outlet or method for the narcissist to raise their own self worth. This bond is strange and complex and fear may be a part of it but there is so much more going on.
When I saw the topic, I thought the link might be something around being stuck in a primitive state of early emotional development and driven therefore by survival-oriented threat perceptions that were appropriate for a baby or toddler, but are extremely maladaptive for an adult, so maybe I wasn't as wrong as I expected to be. I hope you won't mind a suggestion to review in detail at histrionic traits and the full disorder, as well as schizoid and schizotypical disorders and their common comorbidities?
Immaturity is the answer you seek. :)
You seem to focus on superficial symptoms too much. Although they can be problematic, they are not the disorder itself.
Cluster B people seem to need their true self (overshadowed by the false self) to finally grow up. The problem is removing the superficially adult false self and getting to the inner child (the real person), though. The subconscious/unconscious lack of trust in cluster B people makes this ridiculously hard.
Hmm. I don't really understand what you are saying. It sounds a little like psychobabble to. Sorry. I did read it several times. I guess I'm just dumb.
@@h.borter5367 They mean that both pwBPD and pwNPD need to shed this unrealistic self image they've created for themselves in order to mature. They're projecting a caricature of who they are for security and won't let it go. This is usually seen with things like "happy family," "perfect mom/dad," "I'm the best at this." These false portraits seem to connect with both of the disorders, but BPD seems to be different in the way that it ties into fragile sense of self.
i have both there is definitely a connection
As ever, I found this to be very informative. I also wish I could learn to pace my speech patterns like yours...is it a psych thing? A dedicated module/workshop in the degree program? 😁
In all seriousness though, I wish it was easier to get referrals (here in the UK) if you think you have a personality disorder. As much as free healthcare is awesome, the waiting times can be shocking.
Does anyone based in the UK have any advice for getting a referral and/or finding specialised therapists?
For Npd, the narcissist would say they have fear of abandonment which would actually be them losing their supply.
For Npd, the unstable relationship could be the narcissist love bombing their supply to get something out of them then devaluation soon after, going in a never ending cycle.
@Dr. Todd Grande Have you read Neurosis & Human Growth by Karen Horney MD?
I found this video because I think I was a narcissist about a year ago, somethings happened in my life and now I have an intense inferiority complex compared to others and it’s driving me crazy , so would it be possible to go from a narcissistic prideful brat - a low self esteemed wimp
I would like to hear about a possible common factor between Borderline PD and the trauma-response of fight (and possibly the other three of flight, freeze, fawn).
Hello Dr. Grande. I have seen traits of grandiose narcissism in some in one of my co workers and my boss seem to have tendencies to borderline personality. Another one seem to have vulnerable narcissistic and borderline. The others seem To be normal. The others are fantastic and even sweet. questions: how common are those traits that I mentioned. Do most people have a combination. I say that because none of us are perfect. How do I stay healthy when the manager and the boss are sick. They both are annoying but they are actually most of the time good to me. Themanager gossips, mistreats people and says he is very assertive, smart and can learn his new job in a in a day. The boss gossips with that manager and behaves erratic. Very manipulative. How can I behave best around people like that. I am trying not to talk too much and just do my job.
I agree with the concept of fear. The biggest similarities I see is the need to use others for emotional regulation and reliance for a sense of self because the sense of self is so fragile. So I guess that ties into your construct of fear. I often hear the word "appliance" used with NPD, but I also see it with BPD. How do you feel about this term and do you think it applies in both areas? Perhaps could "fear" be better replaced with an "emptiness"?
Can a Comic Book Illustrator - and a Screenplay Writer ( have this happen ? )
Lack of object constancy in both and impaired judgment. That's before i listen to video.
Please compare the characteristics of sexual behavior in people with mental disorders, including father/mother complexion!
interesting theories. Do tell. What do you make re the bck case idaho? His EDUCATION FACTORING IN?
Hi Dr Grande. Can you please recommend some academic books on the subject of NPD or cluster B disorders? I would really appreciate it.
Malignant Selflove. Narcissism Revisited. By Sam Vaknin.
The root of pride is insecurity, the constructs of narcissism/psychopathy are pride personified. The root of bpd is fear of abandonment. The root of schizoid is fear of intimacy. I don’t know enough about the other personality disorders
Self-image is the worst for me, I feel like I'm possessed most the time. n other times I feel like I'm what has "possessed" me... I think I have a good heart n care, but I think about terrible things..at times I smile as I dwell on the level violence my fantasies can conjure. I feel like it's a gargoyles nail scratching at my brain, begging me to slip and give in to the rage or whatever tf I got going on. I may not be taken serious bcuz my freedom with my words, i dont have shame bcuz i hate anyone who would judge me. I'm just saying, I'm losing it and cant tell anyone without being exiled and called crazy... but locking a dog away in total darkness doesn't make him a beast? Yeah ok world
Hi, could you possibly do a video on comorbid BPD and ASPD? I was recently diagnosed with both and would be interested to hear your experiences dealing with these types of individuals and what sort of traits they’d most likely possess. Thanks.
Odd question ---
Would you consider having been raised in a fear-based home congruent with the idea that an invalidating environment can contribute to the development of BPD/NPD traits?
From another of your videos --- also very interesting to see that having bipolar disorder makes one more prone to BPD as well. :-(
Another question:
Is there research to show that bi-polar disorder is more or less heritable than BPD?
And, not sure if this makes sense, but....are comorbidities (like bipolar/BPD) researched for heritability?
Have no idea how one would research that, but, hey, I thought I'd ask. :-)
I disagree with BPD lacking in empathy. I understand pain and suffering so deeply. I connect with other people in there pain. I feel there pain.. I could understand my ex had NPD. I could relate to him in many ways
Is BPD a reaction mental disorder to having at least one NPD parent?
Can the fear of shame combined with the incessant need for validation/fear of abandonment lead to pathological lying in bpd?
I have BPD,lots of people have,I had a BAD BAD BAD BAD chihldhood...SCARY AND UNBELIEVEBLE..PARENTS NOT THERE...ALCHOOLIC GRANDPARENT GREW ME UP..WITH SCARED TO DEATH GRAND MOTHER..MY PERSONALITY IS RUINED,IMOTIONALLY I HAVE NOTHING TO GIVE
Can BPD fear being abandoned by just one person? They don’t seem to care if others abandon them. Do you think the fear that a kidnapper or trafficker has of losing their victim be called a fear of abandonment or is that more of a NPD trait of losing control of someone? Or maybe it’s really jealousy, which is in both NPD and BPD? Or it could be a fear of pain as you said.
The guy I’m talking to seemed very genuine and that’s how i fell in love with him he said his wife cheated on him and she left kind of disappeared on him for a while and that’s why he hadn’t gotten a divorce because he couldn’t get a hold of her but they are separated so I decided to continue talking to him he told everyone he had a 4 yr old daughter who died in a car crash but I found his wife’s fb and turns out the “dead daughter” is very much alive and not even his biological daughter it’s just his step daughter and I caught him texting other girls and he Denys it even when I show him the evidence of it he was in the military he claims he has diagnosed depression/ anxiety /PTSD& adhd but I’m sure adhd wouldn’t make you lie to the extent he has I’m so confused to what he has because it sounds like he has both narcissism and bpd or im confused because he can apologize but he blames me for it so it’s like ??? His lies sound so honest lol he blocked me everywhere except on a game we play and he sends me gifts on the game and I’m sure it’s to get my attention the reason he blocked me was because I told him I know all the truth (I told him I know his daughter doesn’t exist) he never replied but he still sends me gifts on the game I send them back to him because I’m not mad at him for being sick with this mental illness if he has it but I wanna see what he has to say (I told him I wouldn’t question him) but idk
True doc.
Individuals with both NPD and BPD in one are maybe susceptible and persistent although similarities also evident than the individuals with both NPD and ADHD in one were unlikely no locked to be susceptible because no similarities found to be mergence (correct me if I'm wrong)
findings number 2
individuals with suspected ADHD and BPD in one can be susciptible under the serious mechanisms of disorder (correct me if I'm wrong)
therefore;
The individuals with BPD are likely independent to be common serious denominator than the individuals with ADHD and the NPD in one have no serious clinical mergence to each others (correct me if I'm wrong)
Is it possible to have significant emotional disregulation, manipulation and a lack of recognizing other peoples boundaries when dignosed with ADHD only ??
Isn't fear a characteristic of the human ego in general...and all dysfunctional behavior?